1/1/2015
guest I posted "don't have it yet" last night. Some Tesla employee obviously saw my post and sent it to me this morning (to be read with a very sarcastic tone of voice). I dutifully updated the tracker when I was able to determine the version. You have me trained!!!�
1/1/2015
guest Well, I'm thinking 2.20.30 is called TPMS Buster - for me, at least. First, the right front tire was showing "Low" and after going into a local tire shop and getting it checked to find nothing's wrong with it. Today, the left front tire was "1 Psi, OMG, so low, pull over safely immediately!" But then after awhile the psi rose to 40 and stayed there along with all the other tires and the warning stayed on until I turned the car off and back on again. I hate this "crying wolf" that TPMS sometimes does. There's very little that freaks me out, but worrying about a flat tire really does cause a lot of anxiety on the road.�
1/1/2015
guest The big truck/bus was ahead on my right side, and only light traffic elsewhere.
It was on a gentle freeway left curve which might have made the truck appear to the car like it was somewhat in front of me. But, previously, my car always seemed to ignore out-of-lane vehicles. So, maybe the awareness zone has been widened to give an earlier warning when a car starts to enter my lane?
Previously, a vehicle entering my lane would need to be something like more than halfway into my lane before the TACC would react to the entering vehicle.�
1/1/2015
guest So 2.20.30 seems to have a lot more problems with speed limits in Oregon again. The first couple of times I thought it was just bad luck, but when I had 5mph on I5 three times no I started to wonder... 85 in a 35 zone, 20 when it was 40. 5 bad readings in two days. Not cool.�
1/1/2015
guest Tesla does have beta testers...about 700 or more of them. They have a formal name but I forgot what it is. Your theory is still valid though if they are releasing slowly with an A/B group.�
1/1/2015
guest I agree, in the very rare times I've driven on snow/ice I have to be certain to reset the gen to low.�
1/1/2015
guest That's interesting. Do you think any of them are reporting their firmware updates? Would that explain some of the very low number of reports on some of the releases?�
1/1/2015
guest I think it's called Early Access Program. I asked to be part of it before AutoPilot went live, but it's invitation-only and they probably already have too many beta testers in the San Francisco Bay Area as it is.�
1/1/2015
guest When the AP update first came out last October (7.0) Elon mentioned all the testing it had undergone by these people but you have to wonder about the testing, reporting and resolution process. I would expect with a large number of testers like that the software would be more refined right?�
1/1/2015
guest I think that what they are trying to do is exceptionally difficult both in terms of getting it to do stuff and in insuring that it doesn't do stupid dangerous stuff. I think the former is progressing as fast as technology and knowledge will allow. Beta testers are primarily for the latter.�
1/1/2015
guest New behavior with the latest update: I have it configured to chime when I go 5 mph over the speed limit. I hit a couple of places right before traffic lights where it slowed and chimed even though it was below the speed limit and there was no traffic in sight. I was looking right at the IC when it happened. All I can guess is that it was slowing in expectation of stopped traffic, and the chime for "car going faster than AP thinks it should" kicked in. (I doubt many other people use the chime option, so that option maybe wasn't checked in QA.)
Also, I was behind a car that was turning right at quite a distance ahead. I expected AP to slow until it was completely out of my lane, but it maintained speed like a normal human driver who would expect the lane to be clear soon. AP did see the car. If this is indeed new behavior, I am pleased.�
1/1/2015
guest Ok, but that is just a reflection on how the driver is driving. You can accomplish the same result by letting us less on the "go" pedal.�
1/1/2015
guest Yes, I know, but even still, it's very hard to maintain that 100% of the time.�
1/1/2015
guest I still don't get it. Your goal is to maintain speed or decelerate at a particular rate. Unless that rate happens to be at your current regen limit (max or otherwise) you will still be modulating with the go pedal or the brake.�
1/1/2015
guest Ok, you go out and try driving your car for an hour and NEVER ONCE hitting regen, and then come back and say you don't get it.�
1/1/2015
guest I'm really sorry to read this, Bert. I recall reading more than once about how much you enjoyed her company in the car, and some of the lengths you went to with respect to seat covers, etc. That's really too bad.�
1/1/2015
guest I'm still on 2.18.18 and continue to get warnings about various systems (AEB/TC/SC/regen/AP) being disabled once in a while. Yesterday I also saw a "steering assist reduced" warning for the first time, which is basically a loss of power steering.�
1/1/2015
guest Have you taken your car to a SC? Those sound like equipment failures to me. I don't get warning messages like those.�
1/1/2015
guest The warnings go away after powering off the car (via E-Brake/Power Off screen) and turning it back on (e.g. stepping on brake or opening door). SC says it's a known bug in the firmware and will be fixed in a future version.�
1/1/2015
guest 3rd day in a row with the TPMS crying wolf. Hope for update soon.�
1/1/2015
guest That's ridiculous!�
1/1/2015
guest My goal is to not make my passengers carsick. Yes, one can maintain speed or decelerate without regen by feathering the accelerator, which is easy to do when you intend to do it (say when you are near 0kWh need to coast to conserve energy), but it is very very hard to maintain a "no regen" policy 100% of the time. And at some point when slowing to a stop, you have to move your foot from the accelerator to the brake, and unless you're going <3mph, regen is going to kick in. So as I suggested, try driving an hour with absolutely zero regen, and I think you'll see what I'm talking about.�
1/1/2015
guest 2.20.45 installed last night. There was Little or no information in the release notes other than improvements and bug fixes.�
1/1/2015
guest I agree with this. While trying to keep my dog from getting carsick I have learned to not use TACC or AP and to feather my acceleration and slowing while he's in the car. TACC has a tendency to brake hard and late and accelerate fast to get up to speed which isn't good from my dogs point of view.�
1/1/2015
guest You really think so? Compared to every other cruise control I've had I find Tesla's has the gentlest acceleration. Though I'd
still like both the acceleration and the braking to be adjustable, after all (all together now!): IT'S JUST SOFTWARE
�
1/1/2015
guest Noticed the braking/acceleration is a lot smoother as you increase the distance setting. 4 is really smooth in my opinion. I normally drive in 3 though.�
1/1/2015
guest I've noticed that my car is not going to "sleep" I did a short charge this morning and after charging the dash stayed on, I had to manually lock the doors again to put it to "sleep"�
1/1/2015
guest I'm not sure I understand, are you saying that regen causes car sickness and using the brakes doesn't? In reality it doesn't matter if there was no regen you can still make people car sick by how you drive. And for some people it is way worse in an EV because there isn't the engine noise giving them warning of the acceleration and deceleration.
It would be interesting if someone rigged up a sound effect system to an accelerometer and see how much difference, if any, it makes for those people/pets.�
1/1/2015
guest Yes, the regen is the cause, and it has nothing to do with engine sounds (how condescending can you get?). It's not the same as just coasting and hitting the brakes (slowly and evenly). It is a significantly different feeling and experience.
He has no problem when driving in any other (ICE) cars. It's the instant "regen pullback" that most people don't notice or don't care about.
I was just out driving trying to reproduce what I am talking about. When going say 35mph and you want to slow down, as soon as I pull off the accelerator, FULL Regen kicks in, MUCH stronger than in an ICE and using just the brake, which you can moderate and slow down much more evenly. And if I try to feather the accelerator to slow down slower and not hit regen, I can't slow down fast enough for the stop sign or turn or whatever reason one needs to slow down.
Have you ever driven with someone (in an ICE) who uses the accelerator as an "ON/OFF" button on the highway? It's like that -- it's full force acceleration during the ON phase, and full force coasting thrusting you forward during the "OFF" phase. People who drive like this 'average out' to highway speed, but it's really harsh for the passengers. I know several people who drive like this.�
1/1/2015
guest @HankLloydRight, have you tried just using TACC even at lower speeds?
I haven't so I cannot say whether the TACC mitigates the jerkiness of the regen when "coasting" etc... I've only used it on the highways.�
1/1/2015
guest I don't have AP, so no TACC.�
1/1/2015
guest I have, it brakes harder than I do without it. I start to slow as soon as I see brake lights ahead or something even further ahead of the car I'm following that might cause it to slow. TACC starts to slow as soon as the sensors tell it to and that can be harsh sometimes.
@RogerHScott - I haven't tried other TACC implementations on other cars just normal manual cruise control so I don't know how it compares. I just know my dog hates it.�
1/1/2015
guest I wasn't talking specifically about TACC -- just CC in general.�
1/1/2015
guest So, after multiple updates that I didn't get (was still on 2.16.17 as of yesterday), I finally got updated to 2.20.45 and the reverse gps location is still reporting incorrectly (affects location as reported by Tesla app, API and garage auto-open/close position)
In red my real movement, in blue the movement reported by the API / app / in-car touchscreen. So, despite the fact that I backed in my garage, the car thinks I am parked beside my front neighbor pool.
�
1/1/2015
guest FWIW IMHO, even if I'm paying a lot of attention to my foot control, my MS and TACC is more abrupt when slowing/stopping than my former Lexus RX450h with Dynamic Radar Cruise Control or my MBZ SLK with Distronic Plus (which includes radar cruise control) were. While I'm no engineer, from what was marketed to me, I believe the technologies of all three are/were similar in terms of physically how and what the vehicle can see ahead. There certainly can be differences in programming from brand-to-brand, and except in one emergency situation I can remember with my MBZ, both it and my Lexus were about as good as I could have been slowing in their radar cruise control modes. Tesla gets the job done, but it does seem more abrupt -- IDK if perhaps Tesla just has not prioritized improving the slowing/braking finesse as other mfgrs may have.
But, I believe perhaps the more important point here is the effects of regen can simply be more noticeable in any condition with a Tesla because of the design choice to have regen kick in as soon as you (or TACC or AP) let up on the accelerator -- and how much you or it does that -- vs. my former Lexus Hybrid where it's more subtle (and less-effective) regen kicked-in only concurrently as brakes were applied and in certain (downhill coasting) situations, or my MBZ ICE which of course had no regen at all, so how smooth you came to a stop was all one's own doing or that of of it's automated safety systems.
After driving two Lexus RXh for nearly 10 years before my MS, I loved their torque on take off (not as good as my MS), and while I elected to not be a hyper-miler, I did almost always let the vehicle slow itself to a stop by taking my foot slowly off the accelerator and using the brake at the end -- similar to how I drive my MS to maximize regen. My Lexus was very smooth and it was an easily accomplished experience that I've not been able to replicate with my MS after almost 8 months. It's why I believe this Tesla design point of heavier regen tied to the accelerator is the real differentiator, which I won't be able to overcome unless as has been suggested, there was a setting to completely turn it off. That sounds crazy, but for me putting a very small number of miles on my S90D most days, it would be a great improvement, especially if I could have my riding companion back with me and comfortable once again. I could then just change the setting like say Range Mode if/when I need the distance and greater regen benefits. It sounds perhaps to me like another refinement Tesla could consider one day (after firmware bug resolution, then basic Infotainment improvements, please�
1/1/2015
guest Has anyone received both 2.20.30 and 2.20.45?�
1/1/2015
guest Since updating to 2.20.30 I've noticed a greater sensitivity in the Forward Collision detection software. Have had 3 false positives driving down my street when I go between cars parked on both sides of the street. Same cars parked in the same spots did not trigger the alert in previous releases.
Not a huge deal, nothing like some of the things others have posted. Just thought I'd call it out.�
1/1/2015
guest Yes, I've received both, 2.20.30 on my Wife's Autopilot car and 2.20.45 on my classic non autopilot car. I'm sure you wanted to know though if one car had received both.
On the autopilot car is just said in the release notes that it was a Summons update
On the classic non autopilot car the release notes just said bug fixes.
These two updates have had the least information of any update provided by the release notes even though in many cases release notes did not change from version to version in the past. So I guess this is progress.
On another note, the Audio selection bug introduced a few revisions ago is not fixed with the 2.20.45, I still had to manually select the music source a couple of times today.�
1/1/2015
guest I have the MS-85D, and I just downloaded & installed 2.20.30, wonder what gives. The release note saud Summon "when activating by parking stalk, choose diection". This was the same notes for 2.18.77�
1/1/2015
guest As noted throughout this thread, it is very common for Tesla to release multiple releases with the same release notes. While many of us would like more info what the differences are, we get to try and determine on our own what the changes may well be. Happy hunting, and welcome to the club!�
1/1/2015
guest FWIW: I am seeing the same thing. The biggest issue is when the auto-close dialog kicks in before i start backing in. I never reach the point where the door gets opened because the car thinks i am moving away. The distance to open value increases as I back towards the door.�
1/1/2015
guest Me and my moms 90D are still happily on 2.20.30, updated within 2 days of each other�
1/1/2015
guest I get what you are saying Hank, but for me, I don't experience this. When I don't want full regen, I modulate how much I let go of the throttle. I rarely let it go completely for full regen to kick in. So when I'm driving my S85 without the + suspension (in case those make a difference), one wouldn't tell if I was modulating the throttle for easy regen vs. putting it in neutral and using the brake pedal.�
1/1/2015
guest First, the + has nothing to do with it. Second, put it in neutral? Are you serious? That's not only remarkably unsafe, it's illegal is most states.
But you've actually proved my point -- "putting it in neutral" is effectively the exact same as "zero regen" because at that point, the motor is not involved. So if you're comparing driving an ICE car+braking to driving a MS in neutral+braking, yes, they are identical.
But that has absolutely nothing to do with my point. You simply can not drive the MS without engaging regen 100% of the time, unless you also use both feet (also illegal in many/most jurisdictions) and press both pedals at the same time, at which point the car will also yell at you for such foolishness.
Yes, you can modulate the level of regen with your foot. But it's impossible to eliminate it completely at any speed >10mph, as everyone knows, as soon as you lift your foot off the accelerator to hit the brakes, full regen is activated. As I've recommended three times already, just go out and try it, and I'm sure you'll experience this. Make sure you have the regen meter in the dash so you can actually see it.�
1/1/2015
guest Yes, on a single case-by-case basis, you can modulate the regen by modulating the throttle.. but what if you had to slow down much more suddenly than you expected? Or were going too fast to stop at a light? Or approaching a curve too fast? Or of someone cut you off on the highway? In every scenario, it doesn't matter how much you modulate the throttle, you're going to have to either come off the throttle entirely (activating full regen to slow down), and possibly hit the brakes to slow down even more. In either case, full regen was activated, regardless of your good intentions of not.�
1/1/2015
guest I don't think Cyclone meant that he put the car in neutral, rather that an onlooker or passenger wouldn't be able to tell whether he was in N or he was modulating the throttle, given that the feeling is similar.
�
1/1/2015
guest Ok, but I still maintain, that for someone in the car with an extreme sensory issues, it's not possible to mask the regen by moderating the throttle 100% of the time.
I'm not saying it can't be done in short spurts.. I'm saying it can't be done 100% of the time when driving the car in order to essentially eliminate regen, or as my original post suggested, just being able to turn it off as needed.�
1/1/2015
guest I hope this is my last word on the subject... Someone posted the question "why would anyone want zero regen" and I posted an actual real world example why. For him, regen causes carsickness, and there is no way to completely eliminate regen 100% of the time. Those are facts. So I don't know why some of you are dead set on telling me I'm full of crap and what we experience is not real.�
1/1/2015
guest Per other thread 2.20.30 fixed auto high beam�
1/1/2015
guest You complaint is about having to modulate regen with one foot. The corollary is that, without regen on the accelerator pedal, you don't have to modulate. But that is exactly what everyone has been doing driving a non-cruise control car for the past 100 years. You modulate the accelerator to control your speed, including acceleration and deceleration. Are you telling me you drive by pressing the accelerator to get up to speed, then letting completely off to slow down, then do it again? That sound like a recipe for getting a dog sick.�
1/1/2015
guest Thanks for staying on topic... And the good news!�
1/1/2015
guest There was a topic?�
1/1/2015
guest hanks regen issue seems to be the topic�
1/1/2015
guest 2.20.30 This morning, in stop & go, a lady blinkered between herself and my distance to the car in front. AP was on, and she even waved a thank you as she pulled in between the more "inviting" distance the Tesla now follows behind. Car length was set to lowest (1), and it seems to gap wider at slower speeds. I wouldn't call this an improvement, because I expect more manual interrupts as people move in on me. Tesla's notes say nothing, but I think the crash in Europe and its timing says a lot.
Tesla Model S Crashes Into Back Of Van As Adaptive Cruise Control Fails To Stop Car - Video
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1/1/2015
guest I find TACC executes the final stop better than I can, most of the time. It proves what I suspect, that Tesla needs to give drivers better mechanical access to achieve a smoother manual stop. I've wondered if it's brake pad material (less bite) that could help this, or something more involved. But if TACC can successfully modulate brake application, than somehow giving drivers an easier way to do it would, at least, make me believe I was in a smoother car. It seems like the low battery weight, in relation to the strut towers, makes the Model S easily get into a rocking motion if your braking isn't just right.�
1/1/2015
guest No, "feathering" to me means slowly accelerating and lightly letting off the go pedal not "letting completely off". At least that's how I do it and it works.�
1/1/2015
guest I totally agree. Although new to the S (going on 3 months) with a little practice and effort it is easy to use the accelerator pedal to slowly and smoothly decelerate the S. You drive it to a stop as it were.
Regarding dogs... they can HEAR things we cannot in frequencies which we are unable to hear. Perhaps the dog(s) in question are really NOT car sick but rather some noise that the Model S emits is in their hearing range and not ours.... and the noise is not painful but rather is uncomfortable... Just wondering... many animals can hear things outside of the human hearing spectrum. When I was young, our boxer would know my Dad was coming home from work when his car was 3 blocks away! And the car was essentially very quiet to all of us.�
1/1/2015
guest That's a neat trick. How do you get it to actually stop using nothing but the accelerator pedal?�
1/1/2015
guest Using neutral is easy and perfectly safe. Did it all the time in prius to hypermile and did it for a while in tesla out of habit until I realized hypermiling is a waste of time with elec so cheap.
I suspect that people making their passengers and dogs sick need to better modulate the accel pedal to stay closer to the coasting midpoint btw faster and slower. New tesla drivers don't get this and have more of a binary on off use of the accel pedal.�
1/1/2015
guest Hate to distract the entertaining sensory sensitivity conversation with boring firmware data...
170 reports of 2.20.45, low for a full roll-out after 4+ days but otherwise very broad, seemingly covering all the axis I usually look at (geo, models, batteries, VIN ranges).�
1/1/2015
guest Yes, different sounds could be part of the challenge. I also thought about that, although my Golden rode was always excited to be in my AWD Lexus hybrids that also had a front and back electric motor in addition to the ICE. MS has much poorer rear seat airflow than my Lexus' did, so I compensate for that with fan at max, back windows down and pano cracked -- even if yours truly has to have a coat on in his own car when it's cold outside. I still believe different regen and motion has the most to do with our particular challenge since this is a situation of her becoming physically ill, but unfortunately I don't get a helpful response when I ask what's making her queasy.�
1/1/2015
guest I sure hope I get it. My TPMS errors are daily now and very annoying. I also get multiple "Charging completed" notifications each morning where I used to only get one.
I also thought I noticed more space between the cars in front of me when using TACC on the normal setting I leave it at which is "4." I do not have facts to back this up, however.�
1/1/2015
guest Well, I tend NOT to do this with cars behind me. But when on back roads, and approaching a known stop sign, I can anticipate the distance and begin letting off the accelerator pedal slowing down and eventually coming to a stop (creep mode off). If the stop sign is on a downward slope this will not happen as the S really likes to roll and roll.
If you have not tried coasting in an S by putting it in Neutral and seeing how far it will go, you should experiment on roads with no traffic.
It is amazing just how far one can coast, especially if there are any downhill slopes. Again, I try not to do this in traffic as at times you are coasting well below the posted speed limit for quite a while.�
1/1/2015
guest Um, no offense, but to me this is the definition of having a lot of time on one's hands. As you point out, it coasts a long time, so you're
going to have to start coasting (and, thus, traveling very slowly) pretty early. Your average speed when driving this way is thus going
to be pretty low. This is why I'd prefer [jump on hobby horse] that braking employ regen as much as possible/necessary and allow me
to "brake" (in reality, regen as much possible) to a stop along whatever deceleration curve I choose
[jump off hobby horse].
On a relaxed, slow-paced day, that may resemble the coast-to-a-stop model. The other 363 days of the year it will be a tad less leasurly�
1/1/2015
guest Urban Dictionary: no offense
(To save you the click-through, which if you're not familiar with Urban Dictionary, don't click through if you're easily offended by four-letter words, they define "No offense: A phrase used to make insults seem socially acceptable.")
I am confused why having time on one's hands would be considered offensive, to me it seems desirable.
This is true of course. Well, mostly true, it depends on your definition of "traveling very slowly". If you assume straight-line deceleration to zero (probably not really true) the mean speed for the coast should be half what your travel speed was.
This is false of course, or rather, is not generally true. It depends entirely on how long your journey is and how many stops you have in it. If I drive at 70 mph for an hour, then coast to a stop at the end of the off-ramp, I will not have a "pretty low" average speed. OTOH if I'm in a yuuuge hurry I can push my mean speed up even higher by skipping regen and speeding right up to the stop sign and then hammering the brakes. (I could run the stop signs too, but that's cheating.)
But, as you say, drive the way that makes you happy.�
1/1/2015
guest
Do you really rely on Urban Dictionary to interpret the utterances of those you interact with?
What part of "when driving this way" wasn't clear?
Particularly in a discussion about techniques for stopping.�
1/1/2015
guest Yow! Funny that you can get overstrike by accident, but not (AFAICT) on purpose
Moderator, any chance you can fix that? I couldn't figure out how.�
1/1/2015
guest No, I rely on UD to provide me with definitions so I don't have to invent them ab initio. You know, like a real dictionary.
Regarding "when driving this way", I guess you're trying to say that you meant "your average speed during the segment of the journey when you are coasting to a stop will be low"? Um, ok. If that was your intent, then the part that wasn't clear was "all of it". The most obvious reading (IMO) was the interpretation I came to, which was speed averaged over entire journey. You might as well observe that your average speed while regen'ing to a halt is low, or while braking, or for that matter while stopped at a light. It's true, but without being put in context of the whole trip, so what? You don't get your car out of the garage just for the purpose of stopping it. You get it out to go from origin to destination (usually, unless you're joy riding). So the interesting metric is time from origin to destination. Which coasting to a stop will sometimes extend meaningfully, but often won't. (Oh BTW, in some situations coasting up to a stoplight will actually make your trip infinitesimally shorter, if you time it so that you never have to come to a full stop because the light has turned green before you arrive. Admittedly, this is less true in a Tesla since you can get back up to speed from zero very quickly.)
I totally get that sometimes coasting actually will extend the trip in a meaningful way. I also get that even if it won't, many drivers are too impatient to do it and will be stressed out by even trying. (These are the people who drive sixteen inches off my rear bumper while talking on the phone, god bless 'em.)�
1/1/2015
guest SC was just fixing a broke wiper arm for me and updated my software to 2.20.45. On the invoice it states "Updated to 2.20.45U". Does that U at end mean anything?�
1/1/2015
guest I too would like to be able to disable regen. The reasons stated here are not minor ones involving shopping bags, either, so I'd vote for it even if I personally never use it.
The idea that it could be sound or other frequencies causing the upset with some folks / pets, is also where my mind was going. I'm actually quite surprised that with the high voltages (and other software magic that may be happening) there haven't been more cases of "sensitives" who cannot be near an EV while in operation.
If regen could be totally disabled then I'd lobby even harder for a permanent energy gauge on-screen which always shows the status of regen. State of regen is an important trait for this car which I'd like to know at all times (not on a removable pane).
As for this update, I see nothing new. I liked the honest release notes. My TPMS is was and continues to work fine, no problems. Perhaps they had to switch suppliers for a bit...
Speaking of tire pressure, I'd like to be able to independently change the unit setting for the tire pressure reading. The Canadian Metric tire pressure rating is currently in Bars which is absurd, and mostly useless (I wonder if European Metric settings also gives you a reading in Bar ?). kPa would have at least made sense, but to be honest I'd like to see good ol' PSI for this one, with all other units remaining metric.�
1/1/2015
guest I will only say that if I gave such an impression, I apologize. I tried to understand what you said, acknowledge it, and without insulting you, state why I don't see it as a problem. Never said you are full of crap or not experiencing this. I simple said we don't experiencing in our household because eliminating regen is not our goal, but eliminating the different feel from regen (which is usually stronger than braking in a traditional car) and when I modulate the throttle in my S, I get the same feel as if I had zero regen and was using the brakes. In panic situations, even without regen, I'd be panic stopping and again, the feeling would be pretty close if not just a little stronger on the S since I would still have a some regen.
So again, I never meant to insult you to give you grief. Just tried to enlighten why some people didn't understand since we didn't focus on "no regen", but on "feels the same even with regen".�
1/1/2015
guest I have found that AutoPilot cars have MUCH stickier brakes than non-AP cars. And since I don't think they use different brakes (just the electromagnetic booster vs. pneumatic booster), I suspect it's just a matter of tweaking the brake response/play like they did in the 6.x days with the throttle. When there was standard vs. sport mode, the throttle mapping was different between the two. They could probably add in some "mushiness" to the brakes of AP cars if they wanted to.�
1/1/2015
guest About 70% of the time I don't touch the brake until I've made a complete stop. You just feather it down to where you roll to a stop those last 3 mph.�
1/1/2015
guest I've done this. It truly is amazing. I guess the (low) coefficient of drag is much of what we are experiencing there. For me, I do this when I go over train tracks. I am decent at modulating at 0 power or regen, but the bumpy tracks often make my foot slip enough for traction control to kick in. So I pop in neutral right before the tracks and pop in drive right after. Makes for a smoother drive and now I no longer worth about getting right at 0 kW in that scenario.�
1/1/2015
guest My hypothesis, as implied by my question earlier in this thread, is that no car has received both 2.20.30 and 2.20.45. So I suspect the latter is the former plus a not-very-large change.�
1/1/2015
guest I had 20.30 over the air, and 20.45 from a SC yesterday, which installed this AM when I was back home.�
1/1/2015
guest Agreed. It's one of my favorite features and makes driving in traffic easier for me.�
1/1/2015
guest 2.20.30 updated the following systems:
CID (Center Display)
IC (Instrument Cluster)
Gateway
Battery Management
Charger Main Control
Charger Phases
Drive Inverter(s)
Pedal Monitor
Thermal Control
Driver Assistance
Parking Sensors
Parking Brake�
1/1/2015
guest this might be totally a coincidence, but...
I got the 2.20.45 update 2 days ago (coming from 2.17.37), and for some reason I've had two separate forward collision warnings at quite low speed. It seems the warning is suddenly much more sensitive than before. I've had the setting on "medium" since delivery 6months ago but never before noticed the warning in cases like this.
neither recent incident was even remotely an impending collision, with my car slowly approaching a car stopped ahead or slowly creeping forward itself. The collision warning didn't actually sound until after the car ahead started to accelerate and I likewise started moving forward - still at that point relatively low speed. In one case, the car in front was actually turning right while I was going straight ahead when I got the warning.�
1/1/2015
guest Just for context, how many total such systems are there that can potentially be updated?�
1/1/2015
guest Untested.�
1/1/2015
guest And how is that any different from---
Nah, too easy.
Bruce.�
1/1/2015
guest There is another thread here (Front collision warning fluke/ghost) that describes what you are likely seeing. It seems pretty common. I am experiencing the same issue.�
1/1/2015
guest Approximately 30-60 depending on model and whether you consider duplicates (like dual drive units or chargers for example).�
1/1/2015
guest As one data-fixated enjunear to another, if you wanted to post a chart showing how many times each system has been updated that'd be fairly interesting.�
1/1/2015
guest Would be almost impossible to do, as I have very incomplete data. Only started tracking in 2015.�
1/1/2015
guest One thing I noticed in going from 2.16.17 to 2.20.45 is that a bug with USB playback has been fixed. Before when I would pause playback when leaving the car, playback would start again as soon as I opened the door when returning. Now when I return, if I had paused playback it remains paused. Short of providing an actual off button for the audio system, this fix is a needed improvement for USB playback. Haven't tried it with the radio yet, since I don't use it much.�
1/1/2015
guest Ha, good one. It must have meant "UNinstalled" I'd say. It was that next night that it updated on its own so it may have been the scheduled it for that night. A little odd since they didn't know I'd need the car or not later say at 2AM, but I guess at least if that is the case it warns you before it actually starts the actual install still if you are actually driving the car.�
1/1/2015
guest Passed 200 reports on 2.20.45 and reached 164 for 2.20.30.
Call me cynical, but that sounds like more beta testing, in this case A/B - the sum of those two is about what we usually get for a full rollout... and a quick search seems to show no one got upgraded from .30 to .45�
1/1/2015
guest Thanks for the report Dirk. You, cynical? Never!!�
1/1/2015
guest But did people continue to get any significant number of 30s after 45s started coming out? If not, isn't it more likely they found some minor thing in 30 they wanted to fix but it wasn't worth hassling those who already had 30 to bring them up to 45?�
1/1/2015
guest Maybe someone with more autopilot experience can tell me it this old behavior, new behavior, or just my imagination. I didn't see any reference to it in the threads I searched.
I was driving with autosteer in moderate traffic. The gap closed enough that the autopilot switched from blue lanes to blue lead car. Then the lead car decided to change lanes. Being attentively supervising as I should, I saw what was happening, so with my hand on the wheel I just "resisted" the autosteer to keep the wheel straight. As soon as I resisted the input, the display immediately changed back from blue lead car to blue lanes and I stayed in the same lane. This occurred without disengaging autosteer. My prior experience has been that any override to the autosteer immediately shuts it off. So is this intentional behavior in the AP software, and is it new?�
1/1/2015
guest It sounds like the amount of pressure applied to the steering wheel just assisted ap to go the route you wanted not enough to disengage the ap all together. This has happen to me in the past as well.�
1/1/2015
guest Fwiw had ota .30 and Service center just loaded .45 when doing a tire change.�
1/1/2015
guest Having had two unpleasantly close calls while using TACC in the past couple of weeks, I am unhappily concluding that it is not as reliable as it should be when a vehicle in front of you changes lanes. There have been many comments about how the radar cannot detect stationary objects, but in my recent events, the system failed to account for moving vehicles in front of me. In the worse of the two cases, a car in an adjacent lane moved into mine, but was going more slowly than I, and the system apparently failed to recognize it and did not brake. The emergency warnings did come up, warning me of an obstacle, but I had to brake the car myself. It unsettled me to the point that I shut of TACC for awhile. I was glad i had no passenger to with me to witness the system's behavior because they would have lost confidence in the car.
Although I understand the system is "in Beta" and is not perfect, I really don't get why the system can "see" a car well enough to sound a warning, but can't use that information for TACC to adjust the car's speed accordingly.�
1/1/2015
guest Are those who are describing negative feedback regarding AP driving the pre-refresh model S? What year is your model S?
I have the recent refresh model S, and have no complaints about AP. It does surprisingly well in LA/OC traffic and driving conditions.�
1/1/2015
guest New weirdness noticed in my 2013 classic S85 running 2.20.45:
It seems to have forgotten what Range Mode is. I have Range Mode set to ON, like always. But my air conditioning goes to 11! That's the new weirdness. I confirmed it multiple times, even rebooted the 17" screen to confirm. Still: range mode on, but the A/C fan goes to 11. That is entirely new with 2.20.45. What else is buggy, I wonder?�
1/1/2015
guest As someone who has driven an Audi with TACC + lane keep assist for several years.... You will need more time before drawing conclusions
The riskiest time is when the car you are following moves out of your lane, or someone cuts you off. Every ACC system I've tested is a little lazy at admitting the thing that cut you off is a car until it's well centered in your lane.�
1/1/2015
guest Yes, I think we almost all can agree that this is when TACC consistently fails so just be aware of it.
1) when a car moves into your lane, merging, slower than you, or cutting you off. The TACC and the emergency braking (remember only slows you down up to 25mph but doesn't auto stop fully) don't work together. The car is not visible to the radar in front just yet, and the ultrasonic sensors in front/side of car are a short distance only and again don't react, TACC gets priority it seems.
2) in traffic/more close conditions, TACC/AP locks onto the car in front of you, not lanes (thus you have a blue car on display and not blue lanes. Unfortunately the camera has limited field of view still in hardware and requires this and its common in normal traffic where AP is useful at times. AP lane steering will tend to follow the car out of the lane if they are exiting your lane somewhat before correcting, seeing lanes, etc. This can pull you into the lane next to you also or even a car, in which the MS won't recover either. TACC/lane steering gets priority over side collision safety it seems.
Both of these are the bad cases that you hear about and I can say i've encountered, but I'm aware of and watch for now. Better/more cameras, improved sensors, and software in future versions of AP hopefully will remediate these scenarios.
New owners should be aware of these!�
1/1/2015
guest Assuming Tesla has now disconnected the two things Range Mode did: Limiting fan speed and when ON, distributing torque between front/rear motors for those of us with D-models, I personally see this as a huge improvement vs a bug. (As to which it is, IDK). I can now decide to turn my fan up if I want to -- with the potential impact on range that may have without Tesla simply not providing me the option to decide for myself, AND I still get some range benefit allowing MS software to better shift work between my dual motors.
FWIW, I noticed this change back in 2.18.77 (and on my present 2.20.30), if not 2.17.xx.�
1/1/2015
guest Maybe they have, and in that case I'd use Range Mode to enable the torque sleep feature mainly, but still be able to cool the cabin well. It seems that it could be the case as when I turn on range mode now, I get a very minor increase. Used to be at like 50% 3-4 miles jump, but now it jumped up 1 mile, very minor but still more efficient at freeway speeds.
They should just split the energy saving options to let you choose what is on; i.e. 1) A/C eco, 2) torque sleep on/off. The less aggressive BMS features if any can remain hidden.�
1/1/2015
guest Agreed. My former Lexus and MBZ with their TACC equivalents were also not perfect, but most of the time seemed to be on-par with what my MS with TACC delivers to me today. I firmly believe it's just the issue of software can only go so far dealing with some of these very obscure situations, using current (and similar) hardware technologies available from most auto mfgrs.
FWIW, to each their own on how trusting one is of technologies they have in the vehicles, but for years loving and using radar-assisted cruise control, and now with TACC and AP on my MS, I still try to stay alert as to what is going on and proactively take manual control of my vehicle if I observe an unusual situation that may potentially occur around me. I do that probably a lot more often than some others on this forum -- especially when I'm using beta capabilities like AP -- but that's just me. Until I see the words "autonomous" associated with some capability some day, I will stay in charge and use technologies like TACC (and AP) as an assist only. They are not perfect as folks are finding, nor IMHO could they be today with generally available and affordable tech being delivered. My personal challenge is not allowing myself to become complacent or too trusting (and not paying attention) when using something like TACC or AP, assuming my MS can really take the lead over my own decision making, as another vehicle with more hardware and software tech will be able to one day.�
1/1/2015
guest Wait, so if I'm reading this correctly, there is *speculation* that Tesla changed Range Mode, including decoupling A/C fan speed from Range Mode, but they didn't tell anyone? Really?�
1/1/2015
guest For those having these TACC issues, the most important thing I'd like to know (and probably the thing that most affects its behavior) is your following distance setting. I have it set to 6 and haven't really ever had any of these issues where I feel the car is about to hit the car in front.�
1/1/2015
guest I vary between 1 and 4 and haven't seen any of the issues reported here but I don't drive in as heavy congested traffic like they might have to drive in.�
1/1/2015
guest If Range Mode affects only torque distribution to effect better range, what is its cost to the user? IOW why would it be an option rather than on continuously?�
1/1/2015
guest There's been two speculative theories I've seen about this:
The first and most likely is that it will use the front motor more during cruising which increases the amount of switching noise (audible whine) that the driver can hear.
The second is that it will change the handling characteristics or available midrange acceleration to optimize energy consumption.�
1/1/2015
guest No, according to the info screen, Range Mode does two things... Reduces heating/cooling (aka used to go to only 8 for fan spend when Range Modem was on), AND it turns on torque distribution. As others suggested, I have too have always wondered why I couldn't select each option independently.
I'm not aware of any Tesla documentation on "costs" to have Range Mode enabled, but IMHO, I'm perfectly happy to allow Tesla's software decide when it may be more optimum to shutdown or rebalance use of my dual motors... I suspect Tesla's engineering analysis is better than most of us could ever do in that regard. I'll let engineering types here speculate as to why an owner would want to turn it off in practical use... Perhaps in some sort of cold weather situation where you want to have all wheels under operation at all times, effectively overriding any generic logic Tesla engineers built in. In my case, I am very rarely in situations with frozen roads or some such unusual condition, so as stated, I'd be very happy if I can keep the motor logic on, and still turn my fan up to max warp.�
1/1/2015
guest Looks like I got a first for a new firmware version: v7.1(2.22.15) installed today as part of annual service. On a "classic" MS 60 no less ...�
1/1/2015
guest In addition the Range Mode On benefit to Rated Range for my car is about .40 to .60 of a mile (tested using Remote S which gives more mileage granularity than the car or the Tesla app). So for me it's not even a mile although Tesla rounds up at .50 so it sometimes *appears* to be a full mile when it's not. Just F.Y.I.�
1/1/2015
guest It seems you may have missed this a couple pages back. Did you by chance have your HVAC on "LO"?
�
1/1/2015
guest In the past, before this new development where the fan speed does, in fact, go to 11, range mode was known to also limit the heating and cooling capabilities of the car, in exchange for increased range.
Everyone now seems to be assuming that just because the fan speed can go all the way to 11 with range mode on, that that also means we are seeing maximum heating and cooling with range mode on. While I don't pretend to know the details of the car's HVAC system, I have to believe the fan speed is just one component of it, and that the amount of energy allocated to the actual heating or cooling system would also come into play. Tesla may have decided that they get good bang for the buck by letting the fan speed go a bit higher, without making any actual change to the rest of the heating and cooling algorithm. I imagine running the fan a little faster is "cheap" as compared to actually trying to crank up the heater or cooling system further. If the above is the case, then overall we will still see better heating and cooling with range mode off than with it on. The increase in fan speed may just be reducing the difference between the two, without using a whole lot more energy.�
1/1/2015
guest I have not encountered your specific scenario but have observed that autosteer will permit small adjustments in response to firm pressure (rotational) on the steering wheel below the threshold that disengages autosteer. I became persuaded of this during a 6700 mile road trip this past month making extensive use of autopilot. For the record this was on 2.17.37 in a 2015 85D.
The situation that convinced me this was real rather than imagined is as follows. Under some lighting conditions (wet road) or when the line markings are faded, autopilot will detect the current lane that you are using but fails to detect the adjacent lane, so automatic lane change is disabled (activating the turn signal does not initiate a lane change). Just for grins, obviously with no other cars nearby, I tried to nudge the car into the adjacent lane, to see what would happen. By applying firm pressure, I was able nudge the car about 75% of the way across the edge of the lane (reflected in the IC display). If I released the pressure, autosteer returned the car to the center of the lane. If I "insisted" by applying more pressure, I would end up cancelling autosteer.
Subsequently, I have used this to nudge the car right or left in the lane when the car seemed to want to drift closer to a barrier or was drifting into an exit lane. Situations where otherwise I might have cancelled autosteer. In these cases it is harder to rule out confirmation bias. But your example and my lane "change" seem definitive that autosteer is responding to some steering input.
Why autosteer has this capability, I cannot say. I also cannot say if this is new or has been there all along but has not been noticed.�
1/1/2015
guest It is very frustrating to have to guess what a control on the car actually does. Some Tesla guidance on what Range Mode does now would be appreciated so we don't have to keep speculating.
I used to just leave it on all the time, then read some points on TMC where that MIGHT be less than optimum for the battery, and now leave it off unless trying to squeak out every mile.
Solid info on what the trade-offs are (there are always trade-offs) would be great.
Perhaps Tesla should publish an e-book on the control functions from an engineers POV for those of us that care.�
1/1/2015
guest Can you provide any pointers to posts indicating leaving range mode on all the time could be less than optimal for the battery? If not, could you summarize the reasoning? I don't believe I've seen any of that discussion.
Those of us with dual motor cars that want to maximize the efficiency benefits of torque sleep have no choice but to drive with range mode on all the time, as we have been told (by Jerome Guillen) that the benefits of torque sleep were greatest with range mode enabled.�
1/1/2015
guest FYI I contacted Tesla service North America and they tell me there is no known de-coupling of Range Mode and fan-speed, and that it should not be able to go to 11 all of s sudden.
So.... sounds like a bug not a feature.�
1/1/2015
guest Was the person you talked to an engineer or just one of the Tech Specialsts from the 800 number? I've found their knowledge and some at the SvC very inconsistent.�
1/1/2015
guest Ahhh, I tend to like Andyw's idea of what they did. Probably made it where the fan speed can go up the same amount range mode on or off; however, they may just cycle the compressor less then circulate that area for a while (think of what Nest therm does last few minutes for savings), etc. The fan itself uses a lot less energy i'd say. I'd bet we are seeing now with the latest release the fan being same on/off, and torque sleep & reduced A/C behind the scenes compressing (or heater running) less. BMS still takes care of the battery temp first though also.�
1/1/2015
guest I don't want to guess or speculate. I want real facts.
I've re-contacted Tesla to have them confirm that engineering says no changes were made to Range Mode and the fan speed was not de-coupled. Once I get that confirmation, I can report an actual bug.�
1/1/2015
guest On my 90D, I cannot use Range Mode, because the front motor continuously whines in that mode. With iRange Mode odd it only whines under acceleration, which is mostly tolerable. Continuous whine at any speed over 30MPH drives me crazy.�
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