Aug 14, 2016
alseTrick So it's not any uglier than a bunch of other cars you presumably think are ugly?
The Bolt is ugly. And GM makes some ugly vehicles, just like every car manufacturer does. I nearly died at the horror of seeing the hideous abomination of a Ferrari "station wagon" driving past me a few months back, for example.
But GM makes a lot of nice looking vehicles. The Bolt isn't even close to being one of them.�
Aug 14, 2016
woof Please explain where you get this number from. All web searches I've performed show average commute at least 15 miles in the US. Also, don't you want to get home? So given your number you'd have to double it to 25.2 miles.
However, real research shows the average daily driving distance in the US (as of 2015) is 29.2 miles (Source: https://www.aaafoundation.org/sites/default/files/2015AmericanDrivingSurveyRerport.pdf table 2-1) And since many drive that distance in the winter where EV range is about 20% less, then the minimum amount of electric range should be...35 miles. No BMW 'cept the i3 (and ActiveE...loved that car...RIP) can do that.
The thesis that small amounts of electrification is a better way to ration "scarce" kWh was put forth by our dear friend John Petersen. But as kWh aren't scarce anymore (were they ever?) then making a hybrid that handles the average daily driving distance in EV mode should be the least the auto manufacturers can do. I believe only two exist right now: the i3 REx and the Volt.�
Aug 14, 2016
aronth5 Gee I thought the title by the OP "The M3 terrifies BMW" was pretty clear that it was BMW that was concerned. Not sure how you decided to twist the general forum feedback as "hysterical attacks" on BMW when that isn't the case.�
Aug 14, 2016
renim I don't know about that, Ford Focus EV was far less successful in euope than Zoe, LEAF, VW eseries
Since the Bolt is not Europe made, I suspect Europeans will tend to just wait until there is a local equivalent from the above 3.
Since Gm is likely to prioritize USA sales, and Tesla will prioritize Eu sales, perhaps for mush of Europe, the Tesla will get there first.�
Aug 14, 2016
SageBrush This is a gross error. Almost nobody is average.�
Aug 14, 2016
Red Sage The thing is...? The threshold for 'enough' would be 200,000 units per year or more. And General Motors has already noted they have no intention of selling that many units of the Chevrolet BOLT -- ever. They also have no plans to sell that many of the Chevrolet VOLT per year. Two cars that if marketed properly, would absolutely destroy the Toyota Prius, and GM doesn't want to sell them to anyone.�
Aug 14, 2016
S?XY P100D As a used Ford Focus Electric owner, I think Ford had failed miserably on marketing and pricing. Even today, 5 years after its debut, not many people are even remotely aware of the FFE's existence. Plus at over $41k USD it's way more expensive than a Nissan Leaf which features similar range. Not to mention there's a huge battery hump in the trunk that eliminates much of the practicality aspect.
So why did I buy a used 2012 FFE last month? It keeps me sane whilst waiting for the TM3, I have a long range hybrid as a fallback, it's dirt cheap, I can charge for free at work, it's semi luxurious, and it's got liquid battery cooling (which preserves battery life and efficiency plus it reduces the risk of fire) just like a Tesla.
On a side note, I believe Ford would've sold way more FFEs to an educated EV market if they highlighted the fact that the Leaf's battery is air cooled. I only knew of this because a coworker told me about it.
As far as TM3 & TMY sales in Europe, I believe the 3 will cater mostly to those who cannot wait any longer for the Y, or who plan to "put up" with the 3 for a while and then trade it in for the Y.
Then there's the Bolt which, I'm guessing, will cater to those who cannot wait (another 1.5ish years) for the Y and to GM employees who take advantage of a company discount. (The Bolt is so lame IN EVERY WAY compared to a 3/Y plus it's more expensive that I don't see any other reasons!)
The TM3 sedan design, unfortunately, may not be practical enough for many. Hopefully Tesla comes up with a miracle breakthrough that would otherwise prove me wrong.
You just cannot deny the practicality of a hatch especially when living outside of the US where, oddly enough, most Americans view hatchbacks as cheap, are tricked into buying a hatch that is labeled as crossover/SUV/not-a-wagon, and wouldn't mind sacrificing practicality for a sedan with its elegant butt hump because everyone else owns one.�
Aug 14, 2016
raysspl Hilarious ad from BMW, no doubt. But effectiviness? Highly unlikely�
Aug 14, 2016
S?XY P100D I could think of 2 reasons why this is so.
1. GM is in bed with the fossil fuel industry.
2. Toyota has the reputation of being way more reliable than GM and offers one of the highest resale values.�
Aug 14, 2016
RobStark And yet GM sales about 10M vehicles globally, roughly the same as Toyota.
In the last two years GM USA has consistently decreased sales to rental car companies.
In the last year Toyota USA has consistently increased sales to rental car companies.
More sales to rental car companies usually mean lower resale value and the opposite is also true.�
Aug 14, 2016
S?XY P100D Really? That leaves us with reason #1.
Sadly how the GM Volt should've taken over the Prius market but did not. Major fail #2 for GM - #1 being the EV1 fiasco.�
Aug 14, 2016
Red Sage General Motors has explicitly announced that they have no plans and no interest in either starting or participating in any long distance fast charging network whatsoever. They will do their level best to avoid fully electrifying their fleet for as long as possible. Ford has already shown them how to 'Game the System' with a minimally electrified plug-in hybrid with almost no fully electric range that nevertheless garners an EPA rating of substantially over 50 MPGe. That will be enough to satisfy them for some time. Because it allows them to still have gas guzzlers in their fleet while still achieving a passing Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) rating for the company as a whole.�
Aug 14, 2016
Yggdrasill Don't forget - no rapid charging.
The FFE was quite slaughtered in reviews due to the battery hump in the trunk, the lack of rapid charging and pricing. They had to drop the price by a third and even at that price they just weren't selling. They stopped selling them here about two years ago.�
Aug 14, 2016
Red Sage Smallish hatchbacks are popular in Europe because with enormously higher vehicle taxes and tremendously higher fuel costs, they are among the most economical vehicles on the market to purchase and own. The Volkswagen Golf sells on the order of 1,000,000 vehicles per year worldwide. Yet VW has only sold over 40,000 of the Golf in the US four times in the past fourteen years. Meanwhile, the other cars that sell at or about 1,000,000 units worldwide each year, Toyota Corolla (over 300,000 units nine of the last fourteen years) and Ford Focus (over 200,000 units seven of the last fourteen years), seriously outsell the Golf in the US. General Motors has already stated the Chevrolet BOLT is not destined for distribution outside North America at this time.�
Aug 14, 2016
Yggdrasill The Bolt won't be sold outside the US, but the Opel/Vauxhall Ampera-e is scheduled to go on sale early 2017.�
Aug 14, 2016
Red Sage Yeah. That does it . You keep posting the same drivel over and over and over again. Welcome to the [IGNORE] pile. Goodbye.�
Aug 14, 2016
AnxietyRanger I will leave the commentary on the Bolt looks to Americans who can judge by local standards, but to my European aesthetic at least, the Opel Ampera-e (aka euro-Bolt) looks perfectly nice. It is definitely not aiming to be a weirdmobile. It looks like the kind of car there are millions criss-crossing the roads of Europe today. We love our little hatches (and stationwagons) here, don't we.
I would certainly buy one aesthetics-wise, were I in the market for an Opel. Actually, I liked the original Opel Ampera design too. Sure, there was a little bit of EV bling there, but it was not a weirdmobile by any stretch. If BMW had a real competitor to the Open Ampera-e/Bolt, I would order one today - but the i3, not even in its extended battery guise, it is not. And sadly, I fear that really is BMW's point, they'd rather sell me a 330e than an i3...
To me, GM is at least trying a little.
I mean, look at them. Not to even mention the door configuration... Which one is a weirdmobile unlike anything else the manufacturer makes and which one is basically a normal car following the design language of its manufacturer...
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Aug 14, 2016
AnxietyRanger While I never advocate the ignore button, nor do I use it, I must also admit my disappointment in that EaglesPDX's position does not seem to evolve at all given the dialogue. Clearly he either intends to troll with the fear-mongering idea or the conversation struck a nerve in him and that's just his way of lashing out. Neither seems very conducive for a constructive debate.
Final plead to EaglesPDX: Trust me, very few if any people here are likely to be scared of BMW's 330e advertising. Try to consider the far more likely alternative that they are annoyed at BMW for their apparent lack of EV effort in general and what could be construed as an attack-ad on BEV adoption in particular. It will get you further along in understanding the audience but also gaining acceptance for your ideas.�
Aug 15, 2016
Mark C I find it easier to enjoy this site since I used the ignore. It would be one thing if he stated his viewpoint and went on, but to beat it like a dead horse is just pitiful.�
Aug 15, 2016
Jeff N The initial Model 3 cars probably won't be coming off the assembly line for at least another year and you think the Model Y will start rolling out within 6 months of then? I'm guessing Tesla will be focusing on quality and scaling the Model 3 for at least a year of production before the Y shows up. So that would be closer to 2.5 years.�
Aug 15, 2016
Saghost Actually, it's in part because people blamed GM for EV1 that the Volt didn't take over the Prius segment - at least the highly commited very vocal part of it that went to the Leaf.
For the rest, there was a remarkable smear campaign against the Volt - I think it really worried the oil industry people. Do you know another recent car that had congressional hearings about it?
The campaign was surprisingly effective, too - I still come across people who think it's an electric car that strands you after 30-40 miles, and catches fire. Others say it's just like a Prius.
Fox News and some other folks went to great lengths to tar the car, without exactly lying - here's my favorite example, from the Fox commentary show "the Five" - notice how cleverly they imply they were stranded in the tunnel without actually saying it.
Fox Tests Volt, Runs Out Of Juice In Lincoln Tunnel�
Aug 15, 2016
dsvick This is most likely true of any car over a certain amount, probably $30,000 or so.
Those that do care about GHG probably don't care much about the status. And, for once, you got it exactly right. Status is confered, I can't buy a car and get status, it has to be given, since your the one that is harping on it incessantly, I guess we know who that person is.
Since most people also want to go home from work the average round trip is then about 25 miles, so by your math the average BMW300e driver could reduce their GHG by about half of what you're estimating.
Actually, I'd venture to say that most of the people here have been posting in response to your intial frenetic and hysterical defense of the BMW and continued failure to acknowledge the validity of anyone else's opinion.
I wont be replying to you again though since I've discovered the ignore button and will be making use of it after I post this.
This is nothing, did you read the "Tesla must hate me because they wont tell me my place in line" thread? In fact, from reading that thread and this thread, I get the impression he doesn't like Tesla Motors, he doesn't like Tesla customers, and he prefers vehicles from other companies - I'm not sure why he's here .... oh wait, troll, that's it.�
Aug 15, 2016
S?XY P100D Fox News... what a bunch of baloney! Those neanderthal ingrates... Our world is f****d because of such ignorance.�
Aug 15, 2016
ggies07 I can't stand all these BMW tv commercials that have been running during the Olympics. bah!�
Aug 15, 2016
Chopr147 So now Foxnews is the devil? Who is the ignorant one?
As far as daily commute: IK the Tesla can drive forever but what about the BMW's. Will they run out of juice sitting in traffic or is the regen. just as good?�
Aug 15, 2016
ccutrer Interesting point there. For the most part I'm embarrassed when people see my X, and realize how expensive it is. Especially if it's someone I know. Except, strangely, some very old acquaintances that I didn't really like in high school. Them I kinda want to point and say "see!! I totally made it in the world!! How's your life been going, eh?" Then there's that same person in this thread that I would love to shove it in his face, even though I've never met him.�
Aug 15, 2016
dsvick I completely agree, on both points!!�
Aug 15, 2016
SageBrush Yeah ... inexact use of language by the OP. Faux News has been the scourge of an informed populace for a long time.
Addendum: Devil language replaced�
Aug 15, 2016
Garlan Garner Tesla already produced an electric Corvette - It just has a different body style - and its 4Door and......�
Aug 15, 2016
Garlan Garner I would have to agree concerning the commercials. There are just too many of them. However I love their cars.�
Aug 15, 2016
scaesare You may want to read the other Chevy Bolt threads, but there are plenty of folks who buy Leafs, FITs, Qube', Versa's, etc...
Those either have just as "interesting" styling, or aren't necessarily considered long-range EV's, yet they sell. I expect the Bolt to compete in that segment.�
Aug 15, 2016
scaesare Do you have something to support the "And General Motors has already noted they have no intention of selling that many units of the Chevrolet BOLT -- ever." assertion?
I've seen that they don't expect to sell above a specific # of units initially, but not what you are claiming.�
Aug 15, 2016
Garlan Garner Interesting styling. You are too kind.
Let me put it my way. I don't want a "pocket protector" car.
That's why I'm so attracted to the MS and M?.�
Aug 15, 2016
scaesare I'm not big on it myself.
But, unlike the 330i, the range/price breaks new ground for existing automakers.
While certainly the Model 3 is major competition.. I think only assuming that the usage cases must include some things the Model 3 provides (DCFC, sedan styling, etc...) ignores a market segment that already buys the "pocket protector cars", as you call them. This happens to be the first med-long range BEV available to them.�
Aug 15, 2016
SageBrush You are reinforcing the stereotype that people who cannot appreciate the engineering focus on the grill and tyres.�
Aug 15, 2016
Garlan Garner There are a group that seems to not be concerned with aesthetics. And that's fine with me. Be who you are. The only thing I remotely have an issue with is when those who are not interested in aesthetics votes on aesthetics.�
Aug 15, 2016
SageBrush I'm sorry, but you are misrepresenting that group. They are mixtures of people who do not share *your* preferences, and people who have different priorities. Everybody has an opinion, even if it is only an amalgam of childhood memory and old TV shows.�
Aug 15, 2016
ohmman Can we all agree that aesthetics aren't science and are therefore completely subjective? Yes, there are trends and styles, but thankfully there are differences in our preferences, or we'd never discover anything interesting.
I'm certain the designers of the Bolt think it's a great looking car. Tesla enthusiasts who love the styling of a Tesla are unlikely to align with the design choices on that vehicle. However, it may be a more familiar look to someone coming from another traditional American vehicle.
I don't really care either way. Just get in a BEV as soon as you can.�
Aug 15, 2016
Garlan Garner Absolutely there are people who don't share my preferences...that's why cars have "options". And as I said before...I'm good with that.
My point was this. I'm a male. Even if I have an opinion and have a right to vote...I should have enough within me not to vote on female products. However I know that it takes a whole lot of self control for people to "be quiet" in environments where they have latitude to do whatever they want.
No, I don't think that anyone in the forum should be quiet on any topic. Speak you peace. I certainly have. This is my 1400th post since the release date.
I love hearing what EVERYONE has to say unless they are me. LOL�
Aug 15, 2016
ggies07 I agree, it's only when say, GM CEO likes to throw shade at it's competitor, Tesla, for no good reason. IF you're coming to compete against Tesla, compete, don't half-ass the creation of your first BEV. Otherwise, GM should just be happy it's putting a BEV out in the market.�
Aug 15, 2016
gregd Soooo, let's give this a try... Totally parody and for fun.
(Note to self: need to take out half the words and talk slower. This is harder than it looks!)�
Aug 15, 2016
SageBrush Gregd, well done
I have to admit though, I'd be quite happy if my Prius had a 14 mile plug-in range battery so your line should probably be more along the lines of "So there you have it: a $60k, low range, mediocre MPG, plug-in hybrid."�
Aug 15, 2016
S?XY P100D She looks pissed off at the end of the video. "Why did I end up with this stupid half a$**d bimmer?!"�
Aug 15, 2016
gregd Yeah, thought about that. In fact, that's a very interesting reveal that drove the whole rewrite. She is disappointed with the car. It's apparent that she' s an intelligent professional woman, so there had to be a story behind the scenes that would have caused her to buy the car. Was she duped? Too strong. Misled, deceived? Yep! Look at BMW's website. The "EV with the sporty elegance of BMW" phrase is from their own site, so the overall message I wanted to deliver was that BMW is promising something new and better, but when you look at the reality of the numbers and how it works, it's not much different than a plug-in Prius. Mind you, the PiP is a nice car, for what it is, but revolutionary it is not.
So the pissed-off look is supposed to align with the "and now, she's late" line (hard to line these up without a lot of practice!). That brought the final line to "just another hybrid", completing the message. What's key here is that the fuss of charging (at 120v) meant that she was spending her valuable time doing marginally useless things managing the car, instead of doing more productive things. Hence she's pissed at being late, because of her disappointing choice of the car.
Anyway, it was a fun exercise. I have a new-found appreciation for the marketing folks who put these sorts of ads together. It's hard to simplify the words to fit the time, and to align the words and the visuals. It would have been easier if I had access to a female voice, so the text could have been in the first person, especially "and now, I'm late" would have been perfect for that look.�
Aug 15, 2016
SageBrush If you had wanted to be nasty (but funny), you could have gently pointed out that the slow charge left her alone in the middle of the night. "Small" print at the end could mention that she is a Karate black belt, and viewers at home should NOT act this way with their plug-ins.�
Aug 15, 2016
gregd Yes, but she doesn't look worried about being there, just annoyed. The thing is, with such a small battery, BMW claims the 3.25 hr charge time as an feature (talk about marketing!), so I had to focus on the marginal use-case for the 14 mile EV range itself. How ridiculous to waste time charging for that range, she realizes, when the super charger-enabled Teslas got an order of magnitude more range in a fraction of the time. It's all there, written in her facial expressions and the way she yanks out the plug and slams the charge door shut.�
Aug 15, 2016
EaglesPDX 2010 US Census Data. The most reliable source until the 2020 US Census. There are polls done by various groups, such as the one by the AAA that you referenced. These groups usually have some point of view they hope to advance via the polling.
2010 Conditions and Performance - Policy | Federal Highway Administration�
Aug 15, 2016
EaglesPDX Chuckle...actually EVERYBODY is what the average is based upon.
Considering the BMW300e like all the Teslas including the T3 are for higher income demographics, the commute distances are likley less so the 300e would mean a typical owner would be on the high side of GHG gas emissions reduction. Good stuff.�
Aug 15, 2016
S?XY P100D Did anyone hear a quacking? I'll take THE BEST over average. Thanks.
P.S. It's 330e and not 300e by the way. Chuckle!�
Aug 15, 2016
3Victoria That average means 50% of people have a longer commute. .. we can't be more definitive since they do not report the standard deviation, but a large percrntage will be beyond range ... both ways.�
Aug 15, 2016
Red Sage You are very likely correct. But quite some time ago... Possibly at TesLive in 2013...? Elon noted that if possible, he would love to introduce a new car every year. He wants Tesla Motors to be a full line manufacturer of vehicles. Just to prove that it can be done. Of course, he probably knows a lot more about the difficulties of design and manufacture now and may realize that would be extremely hard to manage. That said, I maintain the belief that Franz Von Holzhausen has not been sitting on his hands since the initial Model X prototype unveiling in early 2012.�
Aug 15, 2016
Red Sage I'm working from the personal knowledge that General Motors typically cancels cars that sell below about 35,000 units per year that aren't named 'Corvette'. Because of that, I find it surprising that: 1) The VOLT has never sold over 25,000 units in the US; and 2) GM announced that they would be offering 30,000 units of the BOLT per year. Now early on, they had stated their intent was to have up to as many as 60,000 units per year of VOLT and BOLT combined... But later, they said instead that they would be able to have as many as 50,000 of the BOLT per year, if the demand was there. It is mighty strange the the Chevrolet Division offers two plug-in vehicles that are each below that 35,000 unit threshold -- as a planned Production level. It is not a lot of cars, and does not compute against historical data at all. By comparison, the Chevrolet SPARK managed over 30,000 units in US sales for three calendar years straight. Of course, the SPARK EV was only 2,629 of the 2015 total... And 30,000 units for BOLT is far more than the SPARK EV. But for a company with the money and manufacturing capacity of GM that ten-fold increase in pure electric cars is rather piteous when Tesla Motors will likely sell more than that of Model ? in the final quarter of 2017 alone.�
Aug 16, 2016
spottyq Oh but that would be great ! A 3-series BMW with a 0 litre displacement and an electric motor ! (=> so a BEV)�
Aug 16, 2016
scaesare OK, so GM hasn't "noted their intention" as you stated, and you are assuming what may happen.�
Aug 16, 2016
EaglesPDX No. That would be the median.
Average means that everyone taken as a whole commutes 12.6 miles one way commute.
The small band of Teslerati terrified by the BMW plug in ad using the T3's long delivery time and aiming at T3 customers, on average most T3 buyers were not bothered by it. Ironically, those of little faith were the most terrified.�
Aug 16, 2016
el crucero No, that would be the median!�
Aug 16, 2016
Chopr147 ?
Assuming is about all we have. It's not a court of law here.�
Aug 16, 2016
scaesare I expect that if it's asserted that somebody has "noted their intention".. that it's actually been.. uh... "noted".
Seems simple.�
Aug 16, 2016
Krugerrand Pfft! You don't love hearing from the people on your ignore list, even though they are part of EVERYONE. Just sayin'.�
Aug 16, 2016
Krugerrand
The (about to be MASS produced) Model 3 is for the average EVERYBODY since the average purchase cost for new cars is something like $32,000 - can't remember the exact number, but it's been posted on this forum a number of times, anyone feel free to pull that number up again for this average EVERYBODY poster.�
Aug 16, 2016
Nikxice From BMW Blog yesterday Is the BMW 330e misunderstood?
Summary: These ads have caused a stir. Tesla fans get fussy over very little. We understand electric cars, but apparently not plug-in hybrids. The author points out that the average American drives less than 40 miles a day. Then goes on to compare the 330e to the Chevy Volt. At least the newer Volts can get over 50 plus miles electric versus 14!�
Aug 16, 2016
Saghost Yeah, it's funny how he goes from Tesla people are too sensitive to folks don't understand plug in hybrids, and kinda skips past the 330e being a rather poor implementation of a plug in hybrid, with neither the electric range nor the electric power to make big improvements.�
Aug 16, 2016
SageBrush If one believes that the advert was targeted towards Tesla wannabees, the author better tread lightly with criticism.�
Aug 16, 2016
SageBrush That average vehicle sales price has about the same utility as the average miles per day number, albeit for a different reason:
The high average sale price includes expensive vehicle classes that do not x-shop the small TM3 sedan.�
Aug 16, 2016
Doug_G Moved one post to snippiness�
Aug 16, 2016
el crucero The author of this blog exemplifies "it seems as if many (BMW blogger) people simply don�t understand" electric vehicles. It appears that BMW "fans get fussy over very little" when it comes to an honest analysis of the 330e shortcomings.
"In fact, it�s almost proven that (electric vehicles) are misunderstood."
I couldn't agree more.
�Why buy a car that can only travel 30 (or so) miles on the battery when I can buy a Tesla that can drive [insert whatever the Model 3 ends up doing]?�
I can't think of any good reason, especially when that PHEV (330e) is almost twice the cost of a Tesla 3!
"However, if you wanna take a road trip that will be a few hundred miles, you don�t need to stop every few hours and wait 45 minutes while the car charges. Just stop, fill up on gas and get to where you need to go."
Has the author ever heard of bathroom and restaurant stops along the way of a trip of a "few hundred miles."
Just stop and get a charge since you are going to be stopping anyway, and get where you need to go! And exactly where am I going to plug in that 330e on a trip of a "few hundred miles"?
"However, plug-ins offer a great transition for customer while the infrastructure for EVs continues to build."
Yes, BWM is NOT investing in the infrastructure for the future while Tesla is investing in that proprietary infrastructure with a vengeance! It just goes to show where BMWs priorities lie!
"So while they might be misunderstood, plug-in hybrids are great economy cars for today�s world."
$60,000+ is now defined as an "economy car"?
"While they may not pave the way for the future..........."
And therein lies the problem with the author's fuzzy thinking. He just doesn't get it!
Oh BTW Mr. author, I do understand plug in vehicles since I now drive a plug in Prius. And I am willing to WAIT for my Tesla 3 which I have on reservation. You betcha! But thank you for attempting to point out the error of my priorities.�
Aug 16, 2016
S?XY P100D Not sure if this was brought up, but we need to remind ourselves pretty soon we will be comparing the Model 3 to the BMW M3. All this rant of comparing the Model 3 with non-compelling vehicles - such as the 330e and i3 - has really sidetracked this thread from the true essence of Tesla's latest offering.
BMW is terrified of the Model 3 because it's a threat to their entire lineup of 3-Series, from base model to top of the line M performance model, and even outside of that series. If we think from that perspective, then we should be able to engage in more meaningful discussion.
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Aug 16, 2016
Neohippy The Prius plug in did horrible in sales because the cost over the non plugin couldn't be justified. I don't think this BMW is a competitor with the M3 but it does give you pretty good mileage in a 3 series. I commute 12 miles each way to work so I could use a car like that and it's available now. If the M3 wasn't coming out soon I see nothing wrong with buying this car. I currently own a Prius and refuse to buy a Volt. There are not many options out there. The fact they compared this car to the Model3 was the mistake�
Aug 16, 2016
ecarfan Agreed. The Model 3 will also effect the BMW 4 and 5 series�
Aug 16, 2016
S?XY P100D Hello BMW... improving upon your products is not as easy as adding a 1 or 2 to the name of your lineup.
Chuckle!�
Aug 16, 2016
EaglesPDX T3 base in $35,000 plus home charging station ($1,200 installed). People do spend more than they can really afford on cars. A basic financial site will tell you 10-20% total car price to yearly income. So T3's are going to be for top 25% income earners and those with ability to home charge.
And at 300,000 T3's two-three years from now is not "mass produced" in a yearly car market of 17,500,000 cars/light trucks. It is a high priced specialty car. Not Tesla's fault but those are the market facts.
If we are going to cut GHG by 80% by 2050 we need to sell a lot of BMW 330e's, i3's, i8's, Prius, Ford, Mercedes, GM, Audi, Volvo et all hybrids and plug-ins.
We should be hoping BMW sells out on the 330e plug-in. It's actually going to help Tesla sales and the Teslerati here who are terrified of the BMW 330e have nothing to fear but fear itself.�
Aug 16, 2016
S?XY P100D By 2050 these hybrids would be extinct, a distant memory, like the way of the dinosaurs. By that time a new breed of pure EV cars would have been flourishing for decades, beginning today...
...that is if climate change doesn't drown civilization underwater first.�
Aug 16, 2016
ohmman The biggest question to be asked in this thread is whether we're the Teslerati or the Teslarati. I mean, I don't drive a Tesle, does anyone else?�
Aug 16, 2016
dsvick I know a lot of it is dependant on location, but $1,200 to have a 240 volt outlet installed seems excessive. The vast majority of posts on it that I've seen put it in the neighborhood of a few hundred dollars. Yes, some people may need service upgrades or additonal panels or some other additional service, but for those people I would hope that they would take that into account.
Can you provide a source for that 10-20% recomendation? According to the 2014 census the median household income was a bit over $53,000 dollars, using the 10-20% figure the median car purchased would be 5,000 - $10,000. Forget your 25% figure, your well into the 91st percentile of income to even be able to afford a $35,000 car. Yes, people often spend more on things than they should, but there's no way half the country is spending that much more on a car than what your 10-20% says they can afford.
Perhaps the 10-20% is for payments? That sounds much better, and then it makes the car much more affordable to everyone.
How?�
Aug 16, 2016
Garlan Garner Isn't GM forced into the EV market by some mandate? I read where they have not truly been interested in EV.�
Aug 16, 2016
Garlan Garner really? I mean really?�
Aug 16, 2016
CuriousG I was going to call him out on that as almost every post has him spelling it out that way. I remember seeing it spelled correctly once. Instead of making new arguments, he's rehashing the same post over and over again. This goes for the people that mistake break for brake too!�
Aug 16, 2016
Chopr147 Give me a brake! Now we're doing spell tests?�
Aug 16, 2016
Garlan Garner If you can't spell ludicrous then you can't order it. That's a new Tesla rule.�
Aug 16, 2016
Chopr147 That is just a ludacris statement to make!
Sorry, couldn't help myself�
Aug 16, 2016
Garlan Garner I love it....I love it.�
Aug 16, 2016
CSFTN Not to be pedantic ..... but ....
You may not be aware, but the EPA has no legal authority to tell any civilian end user what they can do with a product they've purchased legally, yes? Their authority is legally limited to regulating interstate trade and commerce, as it affects the air and water. They can restrict GM from selling or distributing a product without emission control, and can require GM to require its distribution network including dealers from selling or distributing vehicles which violate emission controls. But, they can't stop that civilian from removing them himself, or paying a mechanic from doing so later. They can, theoretically, prevent said driver from using the interstate, but that would require a spot check of the emission system on the on-ramp, which just doesn't happen. They can, in certain areas, require a vehicle inspection including an emission test, and restrict vehicles from passing the test if they fail but that's it. They cannot require all vehicles throughout the country undergo emission testing. Most (or maybe many) of us who live outside the crowded coastal areas do not undergo annual emission testing.�
Aug 16, 2016
CSFTN In California (and maybe a few more states), yes (sort of). In the entire USA, no but they are subject to an increasing average cooperate MPG CAFE, which is essentially unachievable without either EVs, highly underpowered diesels, or highly underpowered hybrids.
Unless there's a technology revolution.�
Aug 16, 2016
JeffK Just to chime in that part of my state has vehicle emissions testing, in counties with the steel mills.�
Aug 16, 2016
Red Sage I believe that General Motors has EXPRESSED themselves through their actions, and I have taken note of that expression multiple times in the past 30+ years.
Izzat better?�
Aug 16, 2016
Red Sage Correct. Every new car sale, from sub-$15,000 cheapos to plus-$3,000,000 hypercars, with their sale prices added together, and divided by the quantity of vehicles sold during a given time period. Typically there are more cars with a sale price between $22,000 abd and $24,000 than any other.�
Aug 16, 2016
Red Sage The Ford Fusion Energi has more electric range, a 70 mile greater overall range, and costs a lot less money. Plus, it isn't a Chevrolet VOLT. That said... The Tesla Model 3 is bound to be better than them all. Because the Ford may not have the performance of the 330e... But the 330e certainly doesn't outperform the 340i.�
Aug 16, 2016
Frank Schwab Dump a 55 gallon drum of used motor oil that you've purchased legally into the nearest river, and tell me how that "legal authority" thing works for you. A strict reading of the US constitution would find no mention of any authority of the Federal Government over the act - however, men with guns will show up to arrest you after the act, citing violations of federal law.
Thats not a statement of what should be, simply one of what is.�
Aug 16, 2016
zenmaster Shift to SUV and the 2-series. BTW, if you bother to take a look at BMW's world market and Tesla's world market, then you can understand my 10% statement (which you even highlighted).�
Aug 16, 2016
S'toon Incorrect.
Criminal Enforcement | Enforcement | US EPA
Rolling coal is a violation of the Clean Air Act, and they have the legal authority to prosecute.
Air Enforcement | Enforcement | US EPA
.�
Aug 16, 2016
Bangor Bob I'm just going to put this here...
Hopefully whoever created this will keep updating it. The next 18 months ought to be interesting to watch.�
Aug 16, 2016
zenmaster First it's due to the unveil date, now it's due to the announcement of the unveil date. Notice how the monthly points on the graph have basically same slope angle regardless of any events. This is like seeing shapes in clouds. Please tell me you don't do market analysis for a living.�
Aug 16, 2016
Bangor Bob Meh, I don't make or label them, I just report 'em.
To me the sales decline sort of coincides with when the price of gas started coming down, really. So yeah, probably mostly SUV substitution.
Still, if you're the US 3-series program manager, you're going to be a little unhappy these days. And the next 18 months are still going to be fascinating to watch...�
Aug 16, 2016
purplewalt Just checking
Recently BMW added a couple of designations
3 series for four door sedans
4 series for coupes and convertibles
Formerly BOTH of the above were denoted as 3 series
Does your data indicate cars that are strictly 3 series, or also include new 4 series into the numbers for the graph.�
Aug 16, 2016
zenmaster That may be the case, but the amount of misleading info, fanaticism and hyperbole on these forums is ridiculous.�
Aug 16, 2016
ecarfan As they should. Good to know that the Constitution can evolve with the times and not stay stuck in an 18th century slave-holding misogynistic agrarian society. Thanks for posting.
And thanks for clarifying.�
Aug 16, 2016
EaglesPDX But without the hybrids NOW we don't make the goal of 80% reduction in GHG by 2050�
Aug 16, 2016
EinSV May I politely suggest that it is greatly exceeded by the amount of denial, misinformation and outright nonsense about Tesla outside these forums.
I would include any suggestion that 3-series sales are not being significantly impacted by the Model 3 launch in at least the "denial" and "nonsense" categories.�
Aug 16, 2016
int32_t Men with ... guns? For polluting? For all our sakes, I hope this is hyperbole. A hefty fine would be sufficient, and would actually help with cleaning up.�
Aug 16, 2016
scaesare Sure.
My point was to determine if this is something GM has explicitly stated, and if so where, as it's a rather big deal. It also would have significant implications for the discussions regarding how many batteries they might source per year, etc....
Certainly folks will draw conclusions from past corporate behavior, it's just useful to note them as such.�
Aug 16, 2016
zenmaster Not sure where. Even on the most popular BMW site "bimmerpost", *most* of the comments about the Tesla and Model 3 have been positive.
Of course they have and will probably be impacted, but nothing posted in this thread claiming to show an indication of this impact has actually done so. It is as if that would be an irrelevant detail. Also what is "significant"?�
Aug 16, 2016
scaesare Excellent question.
Which confers greater status?�
Aug 16, 2016
S?XY P100D Can't argue with you on this one. I do own a hybrid myself.�
Aug 16, 2016
sitter_k This! Looking for the rebuttal from Eaglespdx.
According to KBB
Record New-Car Transaction Prices Reported In December 2015, According To Kelley Blue Book
Average car price is in and around $34k. Model 3 is very much in line with this budget.�
Aug 16, 2016
ccutrer Depends on how much you're polluting, and how much you're resisting paying that fine. And who the EPA sends. If it's your friendly local beat cop, or even an FBI agent - yes, they're carrying guns. Not big scary guns, but they're definitely packing. Government works - ultimately - on the threat of force, and them having (at least the fa�ade of) a monopoly on said force. Everything less than that is less forceful - and contingent on your compliance to the lesser force before escalation.�
Aug 16, 2016
EinSV I haven't had any reason to look at those forums but that is good to hear. I expect most people who are into cars and the driving experience would have a positive reaction to what Tesla is doing. I was referring to some in the mainstream media and a small army of trolls who seem determined to paint a negative picture of Tesla.
I love cars. I owned a Porsche which I recently sold and currently drive an Audi Q5. My son owns a BMW 5-series. We will be replacing these cars with three Model 3s (or possibly two Model 3s and one Model Y).
I don't think there is any question that BMW's target demographic of people interested in the "Ultimate Driving Machine" are moving to Tesla in large numbers because it offers a superior driving experience (some of us are also excited to have the environmental benefits of EVs).
@RubberToe has created several interesting threads comparing the growth of the X/S/3 with competitors' sales. Correlation does not imply causation but the BMW ad that is the subject of this thread shows that at least some within BMW understand what is happening and are worried enough about a significant impact that they have invested in a multimillion dollar advertising campaign to fight it.
Frankly, I would be happier if BMW decided to embrace what is a superior technology (EV) and invest in it instead of spending money on a pathetic advertising campaign promoting a ridiculous car nobody wants. So far that is not happening at a level that IMO is anywhere close to what it should be, which I think is a strategic mistake that BMW will regret.�
Aug 17, 2016
dsvick Given a set of data, a pencil, and some graph paper you can make almost any data conform to your point of view. Throw in a politician and you can make it say anything, even the complete opposite of what it really means�
Aug 17, 2016
SageBrush I notice you hedge your statement with 'almost,' but I'd love to see your graph of car sales that supports the assertion that the TM3 is helping BMW�
Aug 17, 2016
xav- I doubt BMW is scared (for now). M3 is all on paper. Lots of hype.. But the car is just not there. That $35k starting price, the mass production in 2018 etc. All is based on very very optimistic assumptions.
Let just not be overly optimistic and remind ourselves that there is still a long way to go.�
Aug 17, 2016
Neohippy Seems like most Tesla owners are ok with growing pains and problems with their MS and MX. I read a article which applys to myself. The target of the 35k buyer is not so tolerant of their car being in the shop constantly. This is because this demographic of buyer works long hours and sometimes only has one car to drive. If the M3 has constant problems the 1st year of release and other companies such as BMW build a reliable car Tesla might be in trouble. I'm in love with the Tesla brand but I plan on spending 55k on a M3 which will be my 1st new car purchase. I will be very upset if it is constantly in the shop.�
Aug 17, 2016
dsvick You didn't read all of my post, to do what you want is the part where I need a politician�
Aug 17, 2016
Model 3 Sorry, not enough with just a reliable car. It has to be a reliable mid-to-long range BEV with a good build out working fast charging network. So, no problem for Tesla
On a more serious side: I did not put down a deposit and sit down to wait 2+ years just to "get a car", but to get the car I have been waiting for 20+ years to finely be produced. Yes, like everbody else I hope it is reliable without any problems, but I'm willing to give the fresh car maker that stated up just to make my dream come true some leeway on their new model if they have some problems in the start, as long as they do their best to fix those problems in an adequate manner. If they manage to expand the service centers like they have said they will, I'm confident that they are prepared to do just that.�
Aug 17, 2016
S?XY P100D Umm... wouldn't Tesla offer a loaner vehicle if your car will be in the shop for an extended period of time? This should be a non-issue even at the Model 3's price point.�
Aug 17, 2016
Neohippy Yes they will as I have been told. What scares me is they will produce and sell many of the M3 and the service centers are already backed up. I would ha w to drive 20 miles to get my car repaired then have to pick it up. So a loaner is one thing. I work 50-60hrs a week sometimes 12hr days. I want to spend my free time relaxing or with my family. Not getting my brand new car fixed constantly. I'm so excited for the M3 to be released and love the driving experience Tesla offers. I can handle a few hiccups. Constant problems will ruin my experience�
Aug 17, 2016
Neohippy I own a Acura Nsx. I love it because it looks like a Ferrari but has Honda reliability. I don't mind spending a lot of money on a good car. It just stings when it's in the shop and not being enjoyed.�
Aug 17, 2016
Saghost Forums always magnify the apparent extent of problems - I don't think most owners of either car are putting up with lots of problems or giving Tesla slack.
I also don't think that the 400k people who rushed to put down money on a car they haven't seen and don't have specs for are the typical $35k car buyers who will be so critical of the car - but those 400k people will be most of the model 3 sales for a couple years.�
Aug 17, 2016
Neohippy I would bet a good portion of the 400k people don't realize the issues. I understood the growing pains. After going to test drive a MS I saw the entire service center flooded with MX getting warranty work done. Even spoke to a few owners who loved the cars. I understood the FWD were complex and has issues. Having ac lines crossed and other issues to me are not normal. I thought like most of the general public Tesla had learned on the MS. I'm a gambling man so I will take my chances on the M3 and trust Elon when he said he learned from his mistakes. Don't assume all 400k reservation holders are very educated on the problems�
Aug 17, 2016
Alketi I assume you saw the news from yesterday that Tesla hired the the Apple's Reliability Director to lead their own efforts..
Tesla snags Apple�s Reliability Director to scale up production with iPhone-like dependability�
Aug 17, 2016
dsvick I tried that once, he just played with the coins and spent the bills on catnip...
Of course not all of us do, however I bet more than you seem to think are aware of the potential for issues. I think your both right though, the M3 buyers will be less tolerant than the MS and MX buyers, but will still be much more tolerant than most car buyers. I would hope that most of the M3 reservation holders know that while they may not be "early adoptors" they are certainly on the leading edge of everyone else.�
Aug 17, 2016
Saghost You caught that just barely in time for me to edit.
For some reason my Swype keyboard strongly prefers cat over car, and I mostly manage to catch it and fix it. Mostly. :-/�
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