Nov 8, 2012
ChadS I sure hope so. I really could have used one earlier this week.
I live in Redmond, WA. My wife and I took a trip to Cannon Beach, OR. (My Mom gave us a certificate for a hotel there for our 25th anniversary. Unfortunately the 1940's hotel has no outlets anywhere outside). On our way there we drove a few feet past a 48kW CHAdeMO station in Astoria OR. It's 187 miles from our home; we could have easily stopped for an hour on the way there and an hour on the way back if we had a CHAdeMO adapter.
But without one, we had to stop at a 16kW HPC in Centralia, WA for 2.5 hours to get full on the way down. That got us to Cannon Beach, but we did not have quite enough to return (especially after losing 10% while parked there for less than 2 days). So we instead had to go to the 16kW HPC in Tigard, OR and charge for 5.5 hours.
All told we spent an extra 6 hours on charging, plus an extra hour driving because Tesla's CHAdeMO adapter isn't ready yet. In January I have to drive to Palo Alto, and I will pass more than a dozen CHAdeMO chargers...�
Nov 9, 2012
dsm363 Getting that adapter will be nice.
Looks like there is one level 2 charger there as well (right next to a CHAdeMO as well)
Charging station installation moves forward - Cannon Beach Gazette: Local News�
Nov 9, 2012
ChadS The Cannon Beach chargers are not installed yet; the host site said somebody from the state had "looked at" the site but they didn't have a schedule for installation yet.
The Astoria CHAdeMO site (and AFAIK, all CHAdeMO sites in WA and OR) also had an L2 EVSE. But at only 6.6kW (sigh), so using that would have taken even longer.�
Nov 9, 2012
dsm363 Ah, missed that in the article. Anyway, I hope you get the adapter.�
Jan 4, 2013
100thMonkey Reading about the range reduction of the S in cold weather and how the BMS/warmer can eat range on a daily basis while parked, I am even more eager to hear an update from Tesla on the timing of the CHAdeMO adapter. The supercharging network that is planned is great but I want to do more than drive North or South on I-5, I want to go out West to the Olympic Peninsula and sight see, camp and hike, visit my Aunt in Spokane to the East and have peace of mind in energy hungry inclimate weather knowing I can truly "PLUG IN ANYWHERE" as the Tesla web site states.
Over the holidays I was reminded how much charging redundancy is critical for EV's. we spent several hours in a traffic jam in our highlander, with the heater blasting, along I-5. we had to spend the night in Roseburg at a hotel because the highway was closed due to heavy snow and jackknifed tractor trailers. The reality is that unexpected things happen and even with the 85kW pack, access to any and all charging stations is going to be critical if the S is truly going to be able to replace our gas car.
The S is gaining a lot of popularity up here in the northwest where there are lots of CHAdeMO chargers, it would be a real shame to be locked out of these given how all EV's have a range that fluctuates quite a bit with cold and inclimate weather.
Has anyone gotten a new info? I when I spoke with the product specialist recently who originally signed us up for our reservation, he had no new knews. I get the feeling that if we don't keep this issue alive, that plans for the adapter may get scrapped.�
Jan 4, 2013
ChadS I hear you. On my trip to Palo Alto next week, I could save 12 hours of charging time if I just had an adapter (I will pass within 1/2 mile of over a dozen CHAdeMO stations each way). Plus I'd have a lot more options for charging - a great thing in case some of the HPCs are blocked, not working, in use, etc.
I've been bugging Tesla about this for over 2 years. They won't give any specific plans. In fact officially they won't even officially say they are making one, although a couple of times engineers have let the cat out of the bag (for example, see HERE). All they will say is that their overarching goal is to make Model S as omnivorous as possible.
So, we wait. Sometimes literally, like when I'm at a 16kW HPC in Chehalis WA, staring at a 48kW CHAdeMO station across the street...
If you want an adapter, I think the best thing to do is probably to email [email�protected] and ask when an adapter will be available. They won't tell you, but they will probably keep track of how many requests they get.�
Jan 4, 2013
Larry Chanin Hi Chad,
I certainly can appreciate why you folks would want to see Tesla devote resources to developing this adapter as soon as possible. However, realistically don't you think that these adapters will turn out to be both prohibitively expensive, possibly inconveniently bulky, and ultimately, in terms of the USA, they will turn out to be of value only to a few folks in Washington state, Oregon, Texas and near Chicago?
Its possible that when Tesla starts delivering Model Ss overseas in numbers that they may be more motivated to produce such an adapter, but right now don't you think they may find that their priorities would be better served by focusing attention and resources to the Supercharger roll-out?
Larry�
Jan 4, 2013
richkae I dont see why it would need to be expensive. It would just need a little microprocessor to translate between Tesla and CHAdeMO.�
Jan 4, 2013
ChadS Hi Larry, no, I don't think they should put off the adapter.
The need for a CHAdeMO adapter is not a surprise to Tesla; they already have it working. I don't think the resources required to test and build them are in competition with the people working on Superchargers; dealing with landlords, utilities, electrical companies and SolarCity are likely where most of their efforts are going there. As you note, they know they have to build the adapters anyway for other countries. The chargers are already in more places than you listed, and CA is about to install a bunch more, plus Nissan is talking about donating a whole bunch.
Even if they don't end up in every state, they are already all over some high-EV-adoption states that might get a total of 3 or 4 Superchargers even in the long-term plans. This enables much that Superchargers do not. DC charging is the key piece to make the Model S a car that most of the US would consider, and Tesla isn't planning, ever, to build enough chargers to cover all the trips that people take. They have to use other chargers that are already in place.
Customers like me are already wasting a lot of hours that we could be spending driving. This is a far bigger deal than consoles, floor mats and other things Tesla is working on; lack of fast charging availability is the major deal-breaker for most Americans (I don't think it should be, but it is). People are excited to hear I am driving to California, but when I tell them how long it will take, you can just see them deflate - no way anybody I have met would put up with that. Fast-enough chargers are already there; we just need Tesla to ship their adapter.
It's truly unfortunate that Tesla has to do a bunch of work to build adapters for 5-15s, 14-50s, HPCs, HPWCs, J1772s, SAE chargers, CHAdeMO, etc. I feel their pain, and for their sake (and all companies in the industry; I want them all to succeed, and that would be easier if they had less work to do) but ability to charge is the most critical feature of an electric car. And the methods that matter most are the ones that are fastest and already are installed out in the wild.
I knew the adapter wouldn't be available when the car shipped, but I am going to be unhappy about buying the Model S if I have to take slow trips like this for another couple of years while driving past fast chargers. But far more important to Tesla than how I feel - and why I claim this should be a priority for Tesla - is how potential buyers feel when they hear about trips that existing owners take.
Edit: an additional point, similar to my last one. Many times I've had people that know just a little bit about the cars come up to me and excitedly say that they saw a fast charger (or at least an article about one) somewhere near where they live. Now that they know where a charger is, and realize they don't have to wait around for several hours, they think maybe they can make this electric car thing work. They start asking me about the Model S. But when I tell them the Model S can't use the charger they saw...again, they simply deflate. They don't see how they can possibly learn all they need to know to make an electric car work for them. Of course they could put in a lot of effort and learn what they really need; heck, I did that years ago when there were NO chargers and I have had a great experience with EVs. But in my experience very few Americans are willing to do much research. All they want to hear is "there are fast chargers you can use along the major freeways". A successful EV marketed as a long-distance car has to be able to use all of the installed chargers (whether or not it will be called to use them in actual practice).�
Jan 4, 2013
jomo25 In the last 3 weeks, over a dozen CHAdeMO sites have popped up on the PHX metro area Blink/Ecotality map. And they are free at this time.�
Jan 4, 2013
Larry Chanin I'm thinking that even if the microprocessor is small, the adapter would have to be bulky to handle as much as 62.5 kW. So we have this big end to fit into the CHAdeMO charging cable, then we have this slender end to fit in the small Model S charging port. Likely the Model S charging port isn't designed to hold a large, heavy cantilevered chuck of metal so some sort of additional support structure will probably be needed to hold up the adapter assembly. The people driving the Model S all won't be weight lifters to hold this gagdet in place to prevent damage to the car. The support structure therefore could be quite large. It might be a pedestal arrangement that can be left in place while the charging proceeds for an hour or more. I haven't seen Tesla giving things away, so this adapter with support structure is likely to be expensive. :wink:
Larry
- - - Updated - - -
Yes, I know, I am one of your members, and that is why I value your additional thoughts on the subject. :smile:
I know that there is a lot of sophisticated communication between the Tesla Supercharger and the Model S battery systems to ensure the well being of the battery. I know that there will likely be communication between the CHAdeMO charger and the Tesla adapter, but do you think it will be possible to safeguard the Tesla battery to the same degree, or do you think Tesla will issue some disclaimer with the use of the adapter?
Thanks.
Larry�
Jan 4, 2013
pilotSteve +1 ChadS! Full frontal assault on the "how fast does it charge" questions by Tesla by adding CHAdeMo as an option will keep their order pipeline full and benefit current owners as well as be yet another compelling reason to get new customers to commit to Tesla.
�
Jan 4, 2013
ChadS It is entirely possible that you are correct - it may be heavy and expensive. And I will find both of those annoying. But I will still be happy to have it. More important, size and price won't affect buying decisions of potential customers, because almost none of them will even ask about it. They generally stop asking questions after "where can I charge" and "how long will it take". That's all the information they need to make a buying decision.
I don't know much about either protocol. But I do know that it will be Tesla's code on the car side. They will always know what's going in to the battery, and they can always stop it if it's a problem. I am confident it won't harm the battery. I would think the worst thing that would happen would be that it might have to completely stop charging near the end if it can't slow down the rate that the charger wants to put out enough. I doubt it would come to that. They could just say the adapter never works past 90%, or something like that.
But yes, I think Tesla will include a disclaimer anyway. :wink:�
Jan 4, 2013
Doug_G More likely they'll do what they did with the Roadster J1772 adapter. It's a cable, which allows the charge plug to lie on the ground.�
Jan 4, 2013
Larry Chanin Thanks Doug,
Makes sense.
Larry�
Jan 5, 2013
widodh I don't think that will be a good idea with 50kW of power, rain, snow and other weather effects.
Anyhow, regarding this adapter, there is more then the USA. In Europe CHAdeMO is being rolled out bigtime. Only the Netherlands (which is tiny!) already has 30 CHAdeMO chargers along the highways and they keep being rolled out on weekly basis.�
Jan 5, 2013
jkirkebo Yeah but, according to some, adapters aren't allowed in the EU. So you couldn't use one anyways...�
Jan 5, 2013
mattjn I don't know how many TN Tesla owners there are yet, but the middle TN area has a deluge of CHAdeMO thanks to Cracker Barrel. Shame to not be able to plug in while enjoying some good food.�
Jan 5, 2013
Kevin Sharpe Given Tesla must solve the 3 Phase connector problem then maybe they could fit both a Type 2 and CHAdeMO connector under the front grill and still support the current Tesla connector for Supercharger connectivity.�
Jan 5, 2013
GSP That is a great idea. You could plug in anywhere without an adaptor.
In the States, it would be great to have an option of CHAdeMo and J1772-DC connectors behind the front grill.
GSP�
Jan 5, 2013
dpeilow I believe we suggested using the front grille to house multiple connectors years ago. A good idea seemingly ignored for 'cool factor'...�
Jan 5, 2013
GSP New idea or old, I hope Tesla offers multiple connectors on the car instead of adaptors.
The J1772 AC adaptor is very good, but it still is a small inconvenience. Non technical people may have trouble dealing with adaptors, and Tesla could have a larger market if they cater to them as well as us techies.
GSP�
Jan 5, 2013
jkirkebo I really don't see the point of having a separate type 2 connector if we get a Type 2 to Tesla 3-phase cable. Granted, you could use the 44kW AC fast chargers, but do we really want to hog those for 3-4 hours charging our Teslas at 20kW while a Renault Zoe is waiting to charge at 44kW for 30 minutes ? Better to lobby for a lot of 22kW charging points too.�
Jan 5, 2013
Kevin Sharpe 22kW and 43kW Charging Stations are easy and cheap to deploy so I don't see that as an issue. Just looking for a simple way for Tesla to support the charging infrastructure that's being built in Europe (CHAdeMO and 3 phase) given that adaptors are not allowed. Also seems silly to me that Tesla waste's time and money redesigning the Tesla connector to add 3 phase... we already have a perfectly good connector here.�
Jan 5, 2013
maxbafh Maybe they are designing a single outlet that supports 3 phase charging, CHAdeMO and Tesla super chargers. .... That would be very nice. But just dreaming
�
Jan 5, 2013
abasile One thing that I believe Nissan really did right with the LEAF was putting the J-1772 and CHAdeMO charge ports up front. I have always found this to be quite convenient, and hope to see Tesla do likewise. Up front, there is enough real estate that they could put in three or more receptacle types, including SAE J-1772 (to accommodate both regular J-1772 and the new DC "Frankenplug"), CHAdeMO, and Tesla. In my 28K miles of LEAF driving, I've found that the more charging options, the better.�
Jan 5, 2013
mknox There is a CHAdeMO charging station just off of Hwy 401 where it goes by Toronto Pearson International Airport.�
Jan 5, 2013
highfalutintodd Absolutely agreed. Blink has put a bunch of these stupidly-named charging stations all around Tennessee:
The only place my family ever "road trips" to is Gatlinburg in the Smoky Mountains and being able to use these would be ridiculously convenient - especially since I doubt we'll ever get any Supercharger love in our neck of the woods.
PS - If EVs are really going to gain any traction with "average car buyers," all of this adapter crap has to go away. There's got to be a single standard that you can plug into anything and will charge at the fastest rate possible and that you just don't have to think about. No one - myself included - gives two craps about different connector types. We just want to charge up our cars. And for the love of God, stop letting engineers name things that average joes are expected to use! J1772? CHAdeMO? Stupid, stupid, stupid! I barely understand these things and I've been reading these forums for two months now! I'm happy to be an early adopter and I enjoy spreading the Tesla gospel, but I can't imagine talking, say, my Mom or Dad into buying one of these and then trying to explain to them why they can plug into this charging station but not that one. EVs have a long way to go in this regard.
Mini rant over. ;-)�
Jan 6, 2013
jerry33 It's no worse than IE's non-standard browser or Exchange's non-standard email.�
Jan 6, 2013
highfalutintodd Yeah, but that sucked too. The only reason that didn't cause massive issues is because they were the "de facto" standards on the majority platform. If you dared to use any other platform, "standards" that only worked on one platform were a serious PITA. Now that other major platforms have gained prominence, broadly interoperable standards have become the norm, especially if you care about your products working for as many people as possible. When was the last time you saw a website that "required" IE to work?�
Jan 6, 2013
jerry33 Friday, stupid executives at work.�
Jan 6, 2013
mknox Well, um.. IE or Exchange hasn't left me stranded somewhere or delayed me by hours (charging at a slower rate). At some point (probably not for a few years) EV makers are going to have to come up with and follow standards for this type of thing. Still early days now.�
Jan 6, 2013
jerry33 You've been lucky then. Wiped out and delayed mail is typical rather than rare.�
Jan 6, 2013
spleen CHAdeMO was originally a Japanese standard, is named accordingly, and it makes sense in Japanese "how about some tea?" (meaning take a short break, sip some tea, and recharge your car). Can blame a lot on engineers but not the naming of that. Not EVERYTHING is Anglo-centric.�
Jan 6, 2013
ChadS That's no lie. A DC fast charge standard would do wonders for the industry. I've often tried to think what we could do to facilitate this happening. Of course just designing a standard is not enough, you have to get manufacturers to adopt it. EVSE manufacturers are happy to make whatever is called for - multiple standards don't bother them. The hard part is getting automakers to all agree on one. Here's the situation we have now:
Nissan (and Mitsubishi, and Toyota in their Japanese-market plug-ins) use CHAdeMO. It's a really old standard by current EV market measurements, and not a really great one; but it is well deployed in the home market, and does everything they need it to. They already have spent a ton of money putting out cars that use it. They have no reason to switch, and lots of reasons not to as that would cost them money and disappoint their early customers. So they are entrenched.
Tesla didn't feel they could use CHAdeMO. There are a few technical issues, but IMHO the max charging rate was the killer. The TEPCO connectors that CHAdeMO chargers use are really big and fussy, too. So Tesla designed their own plug. It's quite unfortunate that it was different than the only existing standard, but it is smaller, less likely to break (this has been a real issue with TEPCO), easier to use, and can handle a lot more power. It really is a nice design. Tesla even has a reason to use their own design - they are building a Supercharger network, and they want it to be a competitive advantage - they can't afford others using it. As much as I'd like to see a single standard to make the market grow, if Tesla is doing all the design and buildout, and their cars are the only ones that can really make full use of them anyways, I see the sense here. Besides, Musk chose Tesla's charging design, and he's clearly not going to change his mind - he's just not that kind of guy. So Tesla is entrenched. [Though note Tesla could license the design to others, as long as the others build out Superchargers in proportion to how many cars they ship]
That leaves everybody else - aka "the OEMs that aren't building cars that can fast charge". Why should they care? Why should they have any say if they do care? Well, the one thing they DO care about is not letting Nissan and Tesla take over the whole market in case it does take off. So they want something that is not what Nissan or Tesla are using. That's what SAE came up with. By the way, SAE is not a completely independent standards body - a lot of the people running the committees are from the automakers. I can see why Nissan and Tesla are where they are, but I don't think SAE met their own goals - I do not see any consumer, automaker or EV market advantages to choosing it. It makes the most sense if they are doing it to slow down the competition. If that is their goal...then they are not going to change either, at least not until market forces show them that they are losing market share.
In the end, I think it will come down to who installs the most charging stations (at least the most usable ones; they have to be sited correctly, have good uptime, etc). Right now Tesla is the only automaker willing to put their own money in to making that happen; all the other automakers are waiting for the government to do something, and they are unwilling to work together to fund or organize something.
So do we just wait for market forces to come to bear once the EV market is big enough? Not having a universal standard means it will take longer for the market to get that big. But I don't see anything we can do now short of a government mandate. Government doesn't really want to issue a mandate; and even if they did, you can imagine how popular that would be, and how long it would take to implement...and who knows what they would end up picking! With all the lobbying that would take place, I am not confident they would choose the best solution.
So, as much as it pains me, I'm just waiting. If anybody has constructive thoughts on how to get automakers to work together on this, I am all ears.�
Jan 6, 2013
Doug_G That, in itself, does not indicate a conspiracy. ALL standards bodies have strong participation from the manufacturers, in all technology fields, because they're the ones with the expertise in building the products. Quite often this results in the opposite of coordination because the companies all want the standard to implement their scheme. This sometimes results in annoying standards that have multiple ways of doing the exact same thing.
Other than that, I agree with your post in general.�
Jan 6, 2013
jerry33 Most of them are hoping that EV dies and they won't have to do more than lip service and a couple of prototypes.
As far as I know all standards bodies are mainly made up of industry personnel. The only independent part is that no one company owns the standards committee. It's a kind of an oligarchy.
The only time I've seen any working together is when one company has a submarine patent, gets the standards committee to approve it and then pulls the plug on all the other companies that went along with the standard.�
Jan 6, 2013
vfx
The human names are The J plug and the Chad plug. Just use them and everyone else will too.�
Jan 6, 2013
ChadS I agree, and apologize for my poor wording that gave that impression. I pointed it out because I have had several people question why we don't just all go with the SAE proposal "because it's the standard", and they are usually very surprised to hear that GM and Ford have a lot of influence in that committee. (Tesla had a member on it too). Just because it came out of a standards body does not indicate that it's the best option, was all I was trying to say. It happens to be the adapter of the 3 that least seems to to me to least meet the goals that the makers ascribe to the standard. It was also the last one done. I did not mean to imply that all SAE work is bad, tainted, a conspiracy, or anything along those lines; I don't believe that to be the case. But I also don't believe the SAE's DC plug to be in the best interests of the industry. (Not to say it's bad; I would probably be happy with it if it was the only proposal. It's just that it's a third entry, coming late to the party, that doesn't offer any advantages over what's already available. No, having L2 AC and DC in a single connector - their argument for not using CHAdeMO or Tesla's connector - is not an advantage; having a single cut-out on the car is, but they could have done that with the same size cut-out with a J connector and a much smaller DC connector).
GM will be releasing the Spark with the SAE port soon. And I believe BMW will use it on the i3. It will be interesting to see if there is any infrastructure buildout to support it.�
Jan 6, 2013
rcc I have to agree that the Chademo charging rate is a killer. There's no point in standardizing on a connector that can't deliver enough power. Chademo's limited to 500V @ 125A which is 62.5 KW. That's simply not fast enough to support true long-distance driving. Personally I think the current supercharging technology is just fast enough to support patient long-distance drivers and that charges at 90 KW -- 50% faster.�
Jan 6, 2013
drees While currently operational CHAdeMO chargers are only capable of handling up to 125A, the connector itself was designed to handle up to 200A which would provide similar capabilities as a Tesla Supercharger.
But even limited to 125A - you are likely to only see a modest increase in charge times unless you are charging from very close to empty since the charge rate ramps down as the battery fills up.�
Jan 6, 2013
stopcrazypp The only reference to 200A is for the "proposed" connector in the CHAdeMO website:
http://chademo.com/05_concept.html
The actual production connectors and inlets are limited to 120A (inlet/connector), 125A ("next gen" connector) or 150A (Japanese connector):
http://charge.yazaki-group.com/english/product/index.html
And given you are likely to be pulling significantly lower than 500V (most batteries will be pulling closer to 400V), that current limit is a big issue.
Keep in mind the Tesla connector can support up to 120kW (superchargers are capable of this, but the current 85kWh battery pack can't take that kind of charging power because it's not big enough).
As for the whole discussion of the front mounted connectors, I think the time has passed for that to be added (needs rewiring and may impact the frunk).�
Jan 6, 2013
bluedream42 Seems technically feasible to create a CHAdeMO convert box since the Superchargers are using 480V DC direct to the battery pack. My guess is that Tesla probably won't engineer one unless it comes under intense pressure from owners.
I read a New York Times article in 2011 where Elon Musk was commenting that other charging standards were "absolutely terrible" and Tesla charging was the most elegant design of any EV. Guess he's not wrong. Using CHAdeMO charging on my Leaf has been trying at times because the connector is overly complicated and seems to be damaged way too easily.
Of course finding an RV park or other 240V high amp circuit would provide faster charging than J1772 at 30 amps in the meantime.�
Jan 6, 2013
AMPd I'd like a seperate plug on the car for the CHAdeMO charger
perhaps on the other side of the car? In the same spot as the current plug?
Won't happen, but it's nice to dream
An adapter is more likely�
Jan 8, 2013
Robert.Boston When you need power, the only good charging standard is the one used by the EVSE you can get to. With the Leaf, Nissan got a first-mover advantage over Tesla and SAE; regardless of technical inferiority, we can already see CHAdeMO proliferating as a result. Tesla will sell more cars, and generate more profits, if it can offer drivers the option of using CHAdeMO. So, it's just good business sense to invest in developing that adapter, even if only for the North American market.
The no-adapter guideline in Europe is going to come under a lot of fire as standards proliferate; I predict it will be dropped in this decade, particularly as safety data about adapters comes in from North American experience.�
Jan 8, 2013
Kevin Sharpe I completely agree... Tesla need to stop fighting against the charging infrastructure industry and support what's being deployed on the ground today. If they support the existing standards then nothing prevents them from supporting a proprietary connector as well.
Only yesterday I stopped at a motorway (freeway) services location that had two 32A Type 2 Charging Stations and one 50kW CHAdeMO Charging Station. I sure would be gutted if my shiny new Model S was sipping 7kW while a 2 year old leaf in the next parking space was consuming 50kW.
Sorry but that isn't going to happen because this requirement is integral to European safety laws (which will not change for anyone). Remember that we already support the adapter requirement by using adapter cables. What we don't allow is adapters at the car.
Only Tesla have gone down this path in Europe.... everyone else just gets it :wink:�
Jan 10, 2013
doug This Japanese article claims that the Model S will be able to use CHAdeMO when it comes to Japan mid 2013. So perhaps there is hope for the rest of the world.
????EV????S??????????CHAdeMO???????????�
Jan 10, 2013
widodh Ah, you can read Japanese now?
Good catch however, interesting!
Sent from my phone, so my apologies for typos.�
Jan 10, 2013
Johan Very interesting. May I enquire how you found that article???�
Jan 10, 2013
FlasherZ ...and an adaptor it is:
Model for Japan domestic sales of EV "(Model S) Model S" sedan type, Tesla Motors electric vehicle (EV) venture (Tesla) has announced plans to adapt to the rapid charging system CHAdeMO. It is scheduled to be used for connecting adapter and charging connector of Tesla's unique shape, the rapid charging system connector CHAdeMO.�
Jan 10, 2013
Johan Yeah Google translate sucks at Japanese
I wonder what the source of this information is, and how credible it is. Maybe it's a low confidence source, like we've had some scattered reports of sales reps and what-not (both in the EU and US) stating there will be a CHAdeMO solution of some kind, but never any authorative info on this.�
Jan 10, 2013
TEG Google Translated Twitter
�
Jan 10, 2013
palmer_md While it is not supercharger speed a chademo adapter would really be a selling point for the Model S-40. Since you can't supercharge at least you could fast charge.
perhaps they are waiting to announce this adapter to time it with the 40 production.�
Jan 10, 2013
sublimaze1 to springboard off palmer_md
(and go even way off on an analogy plank)
Tesla, I think we agree, is like Apple and for the moment, let's say that Leaf, Volt, Fisker, etc. are like PC. Lots of clones, but none quite as refined as Tesla.
Move this thought motif to the charging.
Tesla found a supercharger that works for its car and works well. It doesn't work for the PC. Pretend we are in 2005. On comes people who want to use non Tesla charging modes for their car because, well, they want to.
The J1772 is like Microsoft office. Tesla sees the value, and offers the adaptor. Apple allows Microsoft to market the Mac brand of Office ... similar issue.
Now we have someone who wants a boot camp for their Model S so that they can run Windows. Why? Who knows. Whatever. But it is now being asked for.
So the Chademo is the Windows and the adapter will be the boot camp. I don't think boot camp was all the fah-shizzle when it came out, but - again - there was a demand and that demand was met.
Something will happen where We in Dallas and Houston can use the evGo fast charge network. It may not be practical (or as practical as what we are using today). But neither was boot camp initially.
Sorry for the analogy. Both my teenagers leave the room when I start something like this.
WJ�
Jan 10, 2013
meloccom Sorry to burst your bubble but I don't think 40 Kw h cars will ever be Chademo compatible.
To my understanding the 10Kwh charger\s on the model S are AC to DC chargers whilst Supercharging and Chademo are high voltage DC to DC charging.
As the Supercharging option is not available on the 40Kwh model It lacks any DC to DC charger which is likely needed for any Chademo compatibility.
Feel free to shoot my logic down if anyone disagrees.�
Jan 10, 2013
palmer_md Your correct. Without the bypass relay included in the supercharger hardware it won't be possible. That's a real shame because the S-40 is the car that could use the adapter the most.�
Jan 10, 2013
dhrivnak A big plus is there are MANY CHAdeMO stations around the country but very few super chargers. In Tennessee we have 14 Cracker Barrels with CHAdeMO right by the interstate and NO Super chargers within 400 miles of the state. While not as good as Tesla's Super charger they are FAR better than J-1772.�
Jan 10, 2013
Robert.Boston Only Europe restricts use of OEM adaptors. Eventually your regulators will see the high benefit and low risk of allowing same.�
Jan 10, 2013
dsm363 It's funny but I followed that whole analogy without a problem. Nice work!�
Jan 10, 2013
stopcrazypp Given a choice, Tesla has demonstrated they will always pick the adapter. The biggest question mark for CHAdeMO support in the Model S is Europe. Right now Tesla's plan seems to be to redesign a three-phase capable version of the current port in the Model S and then perhaps provide an adapter cable to Mennekes (this works in Europe since most stations have a socket and you provide the cable, whereas in the US they come with the cable built-in).
Of course that plan still does not allow for CHAdeMO without an adapter (since all DC charging stations will come with the cable attached). If the adapter is not allowed in Europe, Tesla might skip CHAdeMO support in Europe altogether (I find it unlikely they will add a separate port).�
Jan 10, 2013
Norbert A CHadeMO adapter, where practically useful, is one thing, and will be probably be provided by Tesla wherever it becomes a larger practical need. However, I don't think CHAdeMO and/or SAE will become a major part of Tesla's strategy.
Unless Nissan does a huge improvement to the Leaf, or comes up with something unexpected, the Model S will soon sell in larger numbers. The Gen III will sell in significantly higher volumes (if all goes well). There don't seem to be similar plans from other manufacturers. Tesla appears to be moving faster than anyone else (which will become more obvious within the next few months).
With the Leaf and iMief, CHAdeMO had an earlier entry into the fast-charging scene (unless counting Roadster HPC charging as fast charging). However, eventually, others may have to adapt much more to Tesla, than the other way around... if those dynamics develop as they appear to me, now.
And that is probably what Tesla will base their plans on: that the Tesla Gen III will be the first high volume electric car.�
Jan 10, 2013
jomo25 But CHAdeMO stations are being aggressively rolled out by Ecotality and others.�
Jan 10, 2013
GSP True that Tesla will soon have a big lead in the number of EV's with DC charging on the road.
However, Tesla is not going to install free SuperChargers everywhere. They plan only a minimal rollout as required for cross country travel. That will not be enough to insure that there is a SuperCharger on the way to your vacation home, or grandma's house, or many other destinations. The Superchargers not only need to be on your route, but at the proper stopping places for lunch or dinner. Governments, charging networks, and destination business need to install DC chargers for their customers. They need a solution that works on Teslas, for sure, but they also need for it to work on other cars as well.
GSP�
Jan 10, 2013
dsm363 Will they continue to do so though? A lot of it had to do with government money there to spend. With basically only one company (Nissan) supporting it and Audi, BMW, Daimler, Ford, General Motors, Porsche and Volkswagen all going the J1772 Frankenplug route, they might change course.
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Great point. I would think you also don't need as quick charging once you get to your destination too. Even DC charging at 30kW would be great in a public parking area while you go shopping, grab dinner..etc then head to your hotel for example.�
Jan 10, 2013
doug My kanji is rusty, by I studied the language and had regular trips to Japan for physics research over the course of several years.
At any rate, given the penetration of CHAdeMO in Japan, some sort of CHAdeMO support for the Model S had to be a given. And yes, from my reading of the article they will be using an adapter.
It was mentioned on Nikki's Transport Evolved, but she was unsure of the contents, so I had a look.�
Jan 11, 2013
widodh What we are already seeing in Belgium is that they are installing fast chargers which do CHAdeMO at 50kW and 3-phase 63A at 43kW.
In the end CHAdeMO is just the connector, so at some point those chargers might be retrofitted to SAE J1772DC or "Mennekes" DC, it's just the connector and some logics. The AC -> DC rectifiers can stay the same since the output voltage is 500V DC.
I'd still import such an adapter in Europe should it not be allowed. In case when I run out somewhere, since we have a LOT of CHAdeMO in the Netherlands.�
Jan 11, 2013
jkirkebo Or the users will just ignore the law and use the adapter anyways.�
Jan 11, 2013
spleen I read Japanese and yes, the article says that it will be an adapter.
As an interesting factoid, it also mentions that there are over 20 Roadster HPCs that were installed by Tesla Japan throughout the country in the past.�
Jan 11, 2013
TEG I had put a link to a map here:
Japan Tesla Charging map�
Jan 11, 2013
Norbert I know, and this is because Nissan has started selling the Leaf a while ago. Tesla has not yet started selling the Model S (let alone the Gen III, of course).
I do think there is a value in having a CHAdeMO adapter, as I have said many times before. Right now, CHAdeMO is almost the only game in Europe, due to the Leaf.
However the situation will look very different in a few years. Three-phase will be coming (limited to 44 kW), and Mennekes DC. But after introducing the Model S in Europe, Tesla may become the highest volume seller, even more so with the Gen III.
So what I want to point out is that the picture may change very much. Nissan itself will at some time be building cars with a higher fast-charging rate than 50 kW, and I think by that time, they will either pick Mennekes-DC or adopt Tesla's SuperCharger if they can make a deal with Tesla. So CHAdeMO in Europe will go the way of the dinosaur, in my opinion. Perhaps 3-phase will persist if pushed by the utilities and others, but if so, then it will be used more for destination charging. And, two 44kW outlets can already be combined to a SuperCharger (possibly with two outlets), and it seems to me that multi-charger locations are the future, as opposed to single outlets (one here and one there).
The german auto manufacturers seem to have scaled down their near-future efforts, so unless Tesla decides to use Mennekes-DC, I think the Supercharger is a prime candidate for fast-charging even if in Europe it may currently not look like it.
Yet again, nothing against a CHAdeMO adapter (or -cable or whatever) short-term.�
Jan 11, 2013
Johan I just had a pretty long and interesting talk with one of the Norwegian sales reps/product specialists. He has now returned from Norway after spending quite some time at the London HQ. He was able to tell me numerous things with a high degree of certainty about 3-phase charging, CHAdeMO, signature choices, and delivery/finalization timing for EU (see my other posts in relevant threads).
Regarding CHAdeMO he stated the quite probably there will be no CHAdeMO adapter/support for the EU Model S (not sure if this also applies to US and/or Asian). He said that testing by Tesla had deemed the CHAdeMO standard not very compatible with the Model S, that the batteries would suffer from degradation and also that Tesla are not very impressed with the whole CHAdeMO standard. I'm thinking that DC to the car is DC to the car no matter if it comes from a supercharger or CHAdeMO, and since the CHAdeMO rate is lower than the supercharger it shouldn't be harder on the batteries. On the other hand, the DC chargers are charging more directly to the car's battery so if they can't get the CHAdeMO charger to feed it the way the Model S wants the power, then I guess it could be harmful.�
Jan 11, 2013
arg All this discussion assumes that any adaptor will be carried around by the car owner.
Given that any kind of charging scenario involves DC (battery) and AC (grid), the DC vs AC charging debate is really "charger in the EVSE" vs "charger in the car". And so it is cost-effective to have the charger in the car (AC) where there are more locations than cars wanting/able to use them, and to have the charger in the EVSE (DC) if there are more cars than charging locations. Hence we have AC charging for overnight use (an overnight parking spot can't be used by more than one car per day), and DC for fast charging (charging spot can be used by several cars in a day, also many cars will want the ability to fast-charge but won't want to do it every day).
So any location that sports a CHAdeMO charger has already made the decision that, for it's specific location/clientele, it made more sense to put a heavy/expensive piece of equipment (the charger) in the EVSE rather than in the cars that want to use it.
Now we have a new piece of (somewhat) heavy and expensive equipment needed to use that facility - should we attach that to the side of the CHAdeMO charger, or get the cars to have one each and carry them around? If it made sense to have a CHAdeMO in the first place, it makes sense to attach the adapters to the chargers.
This could be done in various ways - a purely standalone adaptor installed on a post next to the CHAdeMO, or the manufacturers of CHAdeMO chargers licensing the relevant proprietary bits from Tesla to make a 'double-headed' upgrade to their chargers (CHAdeMO plug + Tesla plug), or similar double-headed chargers where the second head is J1772-DC and Tesla cars just need a small/cheap mechanical adapter. Probably the permanently-installed adaptor gets around the European restriction on plug adaptors.
Things may play out differently in different markets - if Tesla are successfully out-selling Leaf etc., and have reasonable supercharger penetration, then the charging station operators may be pressing Tesla for the adaptors/licences to keep their charger investment viable. If Tesla are doing less well, they may be offering free adaptors to the charger operators to keep their cars looking attractive in markets where they don't have the scale to roll out sufficient Superchargers.
This does all assume of course that "it made sense to install a CHAdeMO in the first place". It is not clear to me how well the economics of commercial CHAdeMO networks actually add up - and whether it will improve with time (more EVs on the road) or get worse (increasing battery capacity meaning less need for fast charging, and CHAdeMO no longer seeming so 'fast' when it is needed).�
Jan 11, 2013
mitch672 Chademo adapter to be availble in Japan for Tesla Model S
Tesla Model S To Have CHAdeMO Quick-Charge Adaptor In Japan�
Jan 11, 2013
palmer_md Mitch...are you trying to put us into an endless loop. haha. It seems that anything that is posted here, someone copies it and puts it on greencarreports or autobloggreen or somesuch "news" site.�
Jan 11, 2013
Doug_G I can believe the latter point, but am highly skeptical that the batteries would suffer from degradation. The charger delivers the energy the car asks for, and it's significantly less power than the Supercharger can deliver.�
Jan 11, 2013
mitch672 Sorry, I haven't read the entire thread. I guess we know how they get their Tesla "news" stories now�
Jan 11, 2013
jcstp this chademo versus supercharger battle, is just too premature to make decisions!
Just watch how fast california got covered by superchargers!
In the us you have maybe 3 states that have complete chademo coverage!
There are already now cues for chademo chargingstations! expanding these locations will take time! (wonder how much the cost compares to adding superchargers!)
But remember how fast j1772 chargingstations poped up in 2 years time!
Let's wait 1 year to watch those superchargers go up! panicing right now is just unnecessary!
A chademo adaptor would be nice, but in my mind not worldshatering!
But TESLA making a chademo-adapter could wel mean a deadly blow for the frankenplug!!!!!!!!!!!!�
Jan 11, 2013
RDoc California has stated that they will be adding SAE combo plugs to the existing CHAdeMO stations. According to them, the cost of doing it is a small fraction of the cost of the station which makes sense as the major costs I'd think would be the facility itself and the DC chargers, with the control system and cables/plugs being pretty far down on the cost list. Blink has said the same thing.
WRT the CHAdeMO adapter, one issue with it may be high cost and fragility as it's not just a dumb physical adapter. It's got to have a some electronics, including a simple processor, to convert both the electrical signalling interfaces and the protocols. My understanding is that an SAE combo adapter for the Tesla is just a connector so should be about the same cost as the existing J1772 adapter. I'm hoping that Tesla will just start supplying SAE combo adapters in place of the current J1772 ones at least in the N American market.�
Jan 11, 2013
Puyallup Bill Rather interesting discussion about the adapter over in the LEAF forum.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=11219&sid=5a135d9272b30bfcddd7744733f19556&p=258016#p258016�
Jan 11, 2013
jcstp do not forget, just adding an other plug is not the only solution! they must be able to charge two cars at once!!!!!!
this is not the case now with the double blink chademos!
do not know if this applies also to others!�
Jan 11, 2013
widodh Why? You can clearly post a sign that you can't use both at the same time.
They have some valid points about a Model S owner being there for 2 hours
Sent from my phone, so my apologies for typos.�
Jan 11, 2013
RDoc There was a video somewhere from last fall of an interview with a senior engineer at Tesla where IIRC, he said the SAE combo plug adapter would be a dumb plug because Tesla uses the same signalling electrical interface and a very similar or identical protocol. As long as the electrical interface is the same, the protocol translation is just a firmware fix.
WRT dual plugs on Blink or other chargers, the chargers can service the same number of cars they can today. That's a function of the number of AC to DC rectifiers in the unit. I suppose there could be a conflict at a dual charger station if 2 SAE or CHAdeMO equipped cars showed up at the same time. If that became a significant issue, adding another pair of cables and plugs wouldn't be a very significant cost compared to the station itself. Doing a quick check of the BlinkNetwork map, out of the 100 stations in the US, there were 4 CHAdeMO chargers in use, so conflicts don't seem to be a major problem.�
Jan 11, 2013
EVNow So, you think everything else can change, but not CHAdeMO max wattage ?�
Jan 11, 2013
Kevin Sharpe Sorry but I don't see Tesla becoming the "highest volume seller" in Europe because they will be competing against Renault who are going to be a very significant EV manufacturer here.�
Jan 11, 2013
RDoc But will Renault even have a DC charging option on most of their cars because of their chameleon on board charger? If not they may not have much impact on DC charging standards.�
Jan 11, 2013
vfx booyaH?
Tesla Model S To Have CHAdeMO Quick-Charge Adaptor In Japan�
Jan 11, 2013
Kevin Sharpe The point is that Renault will be huge in Europe with AC charging and we should not assume that Tesla will get an easy ride with an expensive car.
AC Charging will be everywhere... DC will be an expensive solution in a few locations.�
Jan 11, 2013
jomo25 Circular reference.
Likelihood of a CHAdeMO adapter for the Model S - Page 33�
Jan 11, 2013
Lyon But are they going to offer the adaptor other places? I would assume so. Also, how long is it going to take to become available? A year?�
Jan 11, 2013
doug Jeebus. While providing some kind of CHAdeMO support in Japan is a clear necessity (as clear as needing 3-phase support in Europe), repeating the same thing over and over doesn't make it any more true. Now ABG has picked it up from GCR, and neither have bothered to find a primary source or to get confirmation. Nor have they bothered for confirmation of the translation of the source article since they both make the same embarrassing mistake.
The article says there are more than 20 Roadster charging points in Japan, but looks like GCR interpreted the Google translation to mean there will be 20 Tesla stores in Japan (unless they got that info from somewhere else). I pointed this out in the comments. Will see if they bother to make a correction.�
Jan 11, 2013
Norbert It could change technically/theoretically. But unless Nissan has a hidden surprise coming soon, I think it will take Nissan a while to come up with cars which need more than 50 kW. And by that time, Mennekes-DC and/or Tesla SuperChargers will already be established networks with chargers above 50 kW, and Nissan will not want to re-build a new network (in Europe). I think Nissan was hoping CHAdeMO would generally be accepted by european and/or american electric car companies, but it turns out that is not going to happen.
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+1 (I was going to respond in the same way regarding Renault, then I saw you basically already said it.)
Basically the decision of Renault to go with 3-phase-only shows that Nissan/Renault is not steering towards high-rate fast-charging any time soon, and so it is another indication that they will use then-established networks for above 50 kW.�
Jan 11, 2013
stopcrazypp But they will have to swap out all the existing stations, connectors, and cables to support that new wattage since they are specified to support 50kW right now (the US/Europe connectors/sockets support 120A-125A, this is true even of the "Next Gen" version; the Japanese connector does support 150A). It's not clear whether the connector socket will still be physically compatible when specified to support twice the current.
In contrast, Tesla designed the current connectors and the superchargers to support 120kW (using only 90kW right now). The SAE J1772 DC that has recently been released supports 90kW ([email�protected]), there's more powerful a 240kW ([email�protected]) version being proposed (this might require a different socket).
http://www.sae.org/smartgrid/chargingspeeds.pdf
So out of the box those two will have roughly twice the power of CHAdeMO stations (and there is no plan yet to update the CHAdeMO power right now).�
Jan 11, 2013
brianman Engaging TEG emulation mode
Found possible match.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/11636-Stanford-Seminar-Dave-Duff-Tesla-Motors
Disengaged
Using a few skips, I didn't have much luck finding the SAE reference you recalled. Perhaps you'll have better luck. Or maybe this isn't the video you had in mind.�
Jan 12, 2013
Kevin Sharpe It's a mistake to consider Renault/Nissan as one company in terms of EV technology.
Renault have said that the vast majority of fast/rapid charging requirements can be accomplished using 43kW AC in europe and they have already demonstrated it's possible to produce a 'low cost' EV with this capability.
22kW/43kW AC Charging Stations can be deployed for 1K-5K (GBP) in the UK. 50kW CHAdeMO DC deployments cost 20K-100K (GBP) and Superchargers will cost more. These cost differences will inevitably mean that AC deployments will vastly out number DC deployments.
Please also remember that most european drivers don't drive anything like the distances driven in the US and these factors reduce the requirement for DC charging for many.�
Jan 12, 2013
dpeilow Except at 43kW (63A 3P) where all the chargers I've seen with this have a hard-wired cable with a Mennekes / Type 2 plug on the car end.�
Jan 12, 2013
jkirkebo Why do you think the SuperChargers will be more expensive than CHAdeMO ? The SuperChargers will be produced in high volume, using charger modules already used in the cars (so huge economies of scale there). The SuperChargers also do not have any fancy user interfaces with touch screens and lots of buttons, the charging is controlled from the car.
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I don't think we should hog the 43kW AC chargers for 3-4 hours charging a Model S at only 20kW. Better to find a 22kW charging station and not piss of the Renault owners
The 22kW stations will outnumber the 43kW ones by a number of magnitude I think.�
Jan 12, 2013
Kevin Sharpe The major costs of deployment in UK are the power supply to the site and the ground works. I've recently seen costs associated with more than 20 CHAdeMO installations and compared that with almost 400 AC installations that we are involved in (including 22kW and 43kW). The cost of the DC charger hardware itself is in the noise.
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Agreed... I think 22kW AC is the sweet spot for many commercial installations in Europe. AC will be many orders of magnitude more prevalent than DC in Europe.
AC is easy... National Trust Going Green - Well they have arrived. Electric vehicles are go�
Jan 12, 2013
RDoc [video=vimeo;36221090]http://vimeo.com/36221090[/video]
This is it. The whole thing is very interesting (at least to me) but the CHAdeMO / SAE combo discussion starts around 3:20 or so and he does say that the SAE combo standard will be electrically compatible with the Tesla connector and CHAdeMO isn't. They didn't go with SAE combo even though they were heavily involved in the SAE discussions because SAE was just too slow to get the standard together. Tesla wanted to design and ship actual vehicles.�
Jan 12, 2013
Norbert They have the same CEO (last time I checked), who, as you surely know, is very involved in EV development.
The real cost is providing the power, and a lower-charging-rate network requires many more locations, which in their sum require a higher availability of power. This offsets costs of the chargers. But that is actually a different discussion, since a long-distance-travelling network is still needed for mainstream acceptance.
So? The Model S in Europe will have the same range as the US model (actually Tesla is currently not planning to offer the small 40 kWh version in Europe). In those situations where Nissan's or Renault's current cars are using destination charging with CHAdeMO or 3-phase, the Model S doesn't need any charging at all. The cases where the Model S needs charging other than at home, are not really feasible with those cars. The kind of traveling that exceeds the Model S' range, is still long-distance traveling.�
Jan 12, 2013
100thMonkey saw this on a local Leaf face book page, about a Tesla S plugged into a Blink L2 charger... for 12+ hours and counting, running over a $20 bill. apparently someone is away from home and badly needs a charge and is only a few miles from 2 CHAdeMO DC fast chargers. I have to admit I would feel burned if I had to leave my car for a day at a slow charger and run up an outrageous bill when just a few miles away was a fast charger that I could use if only Tesla offered an adapter.�
Jan 12, 2013
dpeilow I'm sure you appreciate how "silos" can form in large corporations. Seems like that is going on here.
A couple of years ago we were all at a talk when Renault UK's EV manager was espousing the need not to have a "VHS vs Betamax" format war on EV charging. I called him out immediately in the Q&A session on this because we knew then that Nissan had gone DC while Renault were going AC. We are no closer to them having that resolved internally. Heck, even the CHAdeMO DC-only charger that Nissan is giving out for free comes in a dual-format version which they haven't bothered to distribute.
Not only that, but talking to Nissan EV personnel a year ago, it was clear that they don't even have any visibility of what Infiniti are up to.�
Jan 12, 2013
Norbert Right, the Leaf was designed for Japan (and uses CHAdeMO), while Renault is in Europe (and uses 3-phase), so there are obvious differences. I'm not excluding that there are secret projects, but in terms of what we know publicly, Renault's is the newer development, yet doesn't seem to move towards higher-rate charging. (It actually appears to be lower rate). That was my point. So far there don't seem to be any signs that Ghosn (CEO of both) would have started giving a priority to develop faster charging in the near future. The direction seems to be more to reduce production cost. Which leaves the 90-100 kW-charging arena to others.�
Jan 12, 2013
ahimberg This gets to the problem with a supercharger only model. If you travel long distance some where, you can totally use the superchargers to get there, but once you're in the city, its not nearly as easy to find a decent charging solution that's not slow and expensive. Do you hope a supercharger is not too far and you can get back to it? You always need to arrange to stay at a place that has free charging? (or part of their 20$ a night parking fee)�
Jan 12, 2013
Kevin Sharpe That's irrelevant. I met with both Nissan and Renault this week and they work completely differently and independently.
In the UK CHAdeMO chargers are available for free from Nissan but that makes little difference to the overall project costs. As I said before the DC charger hardware cost is in the noise.
Remember that the lower-charging-rate network is installed by multiple vendors and therefore the cost is amortised across multiple businesses. We will have ~400 locations live by middle of the year and some will have 22kW or 43kW installed for 1K-5K (GBP) which is a tiny fraction of a DC installation (20K to 100K GBP).
that's true but we do a lot less of that in the UK - National Travel Survey 2011�
Jan 12, 2013
doug Lets please keep this thread on topic. Look to the thread title for a reminder of what that topic is.�
Jan 12, 2013
100thMonkey I'm assuming that even though the 85 S has much great range than the Leaf that the issues will be pretty much the same just on a different scale/frequency. there is no conceivable way for Tesla to provide anything like the number of fast charging stations that are already here along the west coast. The value of those infrequent times totally screwed for lack of a CHAdeMO adapter may even be a bigger deal because frankly, I've paid $100K for the car and will have higher expectations. Add cold weather, strong headwind, long traffic jam or any of the other variables that cause one to need a fast charge at an unpredictable interval and the need for a CHAdeMO adapter becomes imminent. Also, I found originally, that my focus was on encouraging charging stations between cities. Once we had those, I found that having them within metro areas was even a higher priority. the need for supplemental charging within the city is actually more common than long distance. I think it's too easy to assume that just because the S has a large pack, that the need for public charging is going to be that different from the Leaf when in reality, we will just be using it that much more often than our ICE... hopefully allowing us to get rid of it altogether!
�
Jan 12, 2013
widodh Also, you don't need 90kW like the SuperCharger, 50kW is still pretty darn fast charging. It's just that 85kWh is a lot of juice, but that doesn't make 50kW slow.
With 200Wh/KM that's still 250km (~160mile) of range per hour. Pretty good I think.
There won't be SuperChargers on every route, so I'd still like a CHAdeMO adapter to use with my 100k car.�
Jan 12, 2013
TXjak This popped up on my Google alerts: Tesla Model S will have available CHAdeMO adaptor in Japan
It says "Tesla Motors has confirmed ..." but who knows.�
Jan 12, 2013
Norbert You seem to have lost track of the argument I was making. Neither Nissan nor Renault are showing ambitions to drive up the fast-charging rate above 50 kW. This makes CHAdeMO less relevant for Tesla than it might be otherwise. (Directly, as well as in so far as I see it as an indication that CHAdeMO will have a limited life time outside Japan.)
Which makes CHAdeMO less relevant? Is that your point? (I don't see that as a replacement for 90-100 kW charging.)
Yes, it reduces the requirements on any network, given the Model S range. (While the need for overnight charging at hotels is the same, of course.)
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That's what I think will change within the next few years. I think Tesla will become the market leader in the US, if not also in Europe (in terms of electric cars using fast-charging).
If you think there is some intrinsic advantage in 50 kW chargers, then one could argue that it is just as easy to build a 50 kW SuperCharger or SAE-DC charger, as a CHAdeMO charger. Though I think a 90 or 120 kW SuperCharger with 2 outlets is even better.
Of course I do understand the advantage of using CHAdeMO chargers also for the Model S, I just think that long-term it will not have that big a strategic importance, and that in the US and Europe, CHAdeMO will eventually cease to exist. Hence I think that Tesla may not want to support CHAdeMO outside Japan more than necessary. It makes mind share and resources go in a wrong direction.�
Jan 12, 2013
stopcrazypp As mentioned further up thread, this is a circular reference. Doug first posted this here:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/7107-Likelihood-of-a-CHAdeMO-adapter-for-the-Model-S/page33?p=249931&viewfull=1#post249931
It's an unconfirmed (by the news sources quoting it) rumor from a Japanese blog that claimed they confirmed it with Tesla.
I also feel like CHAdeMO will be eventually irrelevant outside of Japan, but at this point it's still the leading DC charging system in terms of charger/car share. If enough Model S owners demand a CHAdeMO adapter, Tesla will build one. We've seen that happen with three-phase in Europe. And as I said the only place where it might not support this option is Europe (unknown what they will do there yet, but I highly doubt they will add a CHAdeMO port to the car, at most they will have a Mennekes port).
Tesla might purposefully not built an adapter if they wanted their connector to become the universal connector for the industry (just like how GM and others are not adding a CHAdeMO port in their EVs and even tried to block public CHAdeMO stations), but they have no plans to do so. If they had such a plan, they would be pushing charger manufacturers to add a Tesla connector to existing CHAdeMO stations rather than building an adapter (that's what SAE is doing).
I would not stress too much about lack of a CHAdeMO adapter in the US as long as there is a J1772 DC adapter. I think most public CHAdeMO stations will be retrofitted with the J1772 DC connector soon. There's going to be plenty of lobbying action from the members of the SAE group to make it happen (GM being an example).�
Jan 13, 2013
jackie I have just posted the following question to the Tesla Bulletin Board:
"Assuming that the rumours are true that Tesla are going to support CHAdeMO in Japan through the use of an adapter will Tesla make such an adapter available to the European market as a payable option ?
Assuming that the rumours are true that a physically separate adpater may not be used in Europe would Tesla consider a chargeable option to mount their CHAdeMO adapter inside the car so that it becomes part of the car's structure and is not considered a separate adapter ?
Alternatively could Tesla allow third parties to make such an adaption (like post sale LPG installations for petrol cars) ?"
Let's see if we get an answer.�
Jan 13, 2013
dpeilow Nissan has decided 50kW is the sweet spot for a number of reasons, mostly component cost. They will stick at that level because they want to drive the Leaf cost down not up. I fail to see how this in any way indicates CHAdeMO has a limited lifetime.�
Jan 13, 2013
GSP In my opinion, 50 kW is a very useful charging rate, providing 150 mph charging. This will be perfect for extending range around town. There are lots of sub 100 mile EVs and PHEVs that need this, and they will continue to multiply as they provide a lower entry price to EV motoring. These cars will drive demand for CHAdeMo and J1772-DC chargers. (note that the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV looks like it has a CHAdeMo port, making it the first PHEV with DC fast charging)
50 kW is also great for destination charging. Drive your Model S 200 miles to Disneyland, charge while there, and drive 200 miles back home the same day. Tesla will not be installing Superchargers at Disneyland, or walking distance of many other destinations, anytime soon, if ever. A CHAdeMo adaptor (or, J1772-DC in North America) would be very useful to Tesla owners.
The only time faster rates are needed would be for driving over 500 mi/day. Only Teslas (and PHEVs) can do this, so no need for a non-Tesla 100 kW charger anytime soon.
GSP�
Jan 13, 2013
dpeilow It does, but from the details released in Japan it's an expensive option.�
Jan 13, 2013
jkirkebo Hmm, from what I heard over here the charger usually is about 33% to 50% of the cost, but that number might be declining now.
The larger sites with several chargers will usually need a new, dedicated transformer anyway, so the cost of the chargers is what makes the difference. The largest site here in Norway has 3 CHAdeMO, 1 AC 43kW, 2 AC 22kW and a CEE 32A 22kW socket. The cost was about �200,000 including a new transformer.�
Jan 13, 2013
stopcrazypp Well North America, Europe, and Japan is quite different. The CHAdeMO spec was optimized for Japanese usage (which is why practically all the Japanese manufacturers support it in Japan). It's definitely going to have a future in Japan. But I think the question is the future of it in the US and Europe, where the movement is toward J1772 DC and Mennekes 3ph/DC.
It's telling that Toyota didn't make any effort to add a CHAdeMO port to the RAV4-EV for the US market (even though they are an executive member in the group). Even they can see DC charging is far from settled in the US market. The other two founding members (Nissan and Mitsubishi) push it more strongly. As long as the Leaf holds the majority of the DC-capable EV market in the US, CHAdeMO will still be here to stay. But I expect that to change eventually (starting with the release of the Spark and i3). Tesla will also make a huge impact IF they choose one or the other for an adapter (they won't have an effect if they make adapters for both CHAdeMO and J1772 DC).
Back on topic, I think the release of a CHAdeMO adapter (for the North American market at least) will fall on the timing of the retrofit of J1772 DC connectors on existing chargers. If that happens quickly, the CHAdeMO adapter is unnecessary. Same idea with CHAdeMO vs Mennekes 3 phase charging in Europe.�
Jan 13, 2013
jerry33 I think that has more to do with "Toyota hates electric cars and is doing the minimum possible to comply with the law" than anything else. Doesn't make the rest of what you say untrue though.�
Jan 13, 2013
dpeilow Just about everyone is on the CHAdeMO commitee too.
Are we expecting CCS to replace CHAdeMO at these stations or complement it? If the former, I can see uproar from Leaf drivers.
Volkswagen Group of America and Eaton Unveil New Combined Charging System Quick Charger
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Jan 13, 2013
lolachampcar Is the Tesla J1772 adapter "straight through" or, put differently, does Tesla use the duty cycle method for available current in their cables (or CAN)?
and yes, I know this is off topic but hardly thought it was worth another thread. I also figured the answer could be found here.�
Jan 13, 2013
dpeilow It is, but that is off topic.�
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