Jan 21, 2016
lolachampcar Very likely Tesla bought the car to get it out of the wild as well as for the other reasons mentioned.�
Jan 22, 2016
Auzie Accelerants can be detected with combustible vapour detectors at the fire scene. The combustible gas indicator is designed to indicate vapours of aromatic hydrocarbons in the flammable and toxic ranges. These devices are quite sensitive.
Gas Liquid Chromatography can detect even trace amounts of accelerants in fire debris.
I doubt that Tesla will go that far to test the fire debris. It might be easier to examine the circumstances surrounding the event, such as driver's story and his credibility. Car interference history and/or service records might also give clues.
One possibility is that the fire started by overheated bad connection in car circuitry whilst charging. I hope that Tesla does a thermal scan of plugged cars as part of regular service, especially after the service.�
Jan 22, 2016
bonnie No, I think he's saying not to loan me YOUR S, because I'll undoubtedly leave an overcharged hoverboard plugged in & walk away. It's what I do.
�
Jan 22, 2016
Lessmog I seem to recall that TM (Elon?) promised the guarantee to cover any and all Model S fires, even if the cause had nothing to do with the car itself. That would be maybe a couple of years back, when the wiring in a garage started a fire.
Sorry, not gonna search for the facts myself, just going by memory. So I could be wrong.�
Jan 22, 2016
DFibRL8R From Blog post by Elon Nov 2013 in response to fires:
"Third, to reinforce how strongly we feel about the low risk of fire in our cars, we will be amending our warranty policy to cover damage due to a fire, even if due to driver error. Unless a Model S owner actively tries to destroy the car, they are covered. Our goal here is to eliminate any concern about the cost of such an event and ensure that over time the Model S has the lowest insurance cost of any car at our price point. Either our belief in the safety of our car is correct and this is a minor cost or we are wrong, in which case the right thing is for Tesla to bear the cost rather than the car buyer."
https://www.teslamotors.com/blog/mission-tesla�
Jan 22, 2016
Lessmog Perfect! Thank you!
/Lazy moog :tongue:�
Jan 22, 2016
Max* So you are saying that a hoverboard caused the fire?
Now I'm really confused.
.
.
.
.
Goes hides that way ---->�
Jan 22, 2016
bonnie No, I'm saying that I cannot be trusted with your vehicle.�
Jan 22, 2016
scaesare Correct. I outlined several such scenarios earlier.
So while it's good news that the supercharger cabinet/stall itself didn't appear to be at fault, we still don't know what in-car components involved in a supercharging session may have been involved, if any.
Even if they do identify an in-car fault, that's not indicative of an overall faulty design. Out of 10's of thousands of cars manufactured, there are going to be faults in components, assembly, damage during assembly, etc...
I'd rather know it was an isolated incident of a bad connection in the car than not know at all.. at least that way Tesla has data to make an informed decision. If the seat latch and seat-belt voluntary recalls are any indication, they'll go above and beyond to make sure we are well protected.�
Jan 22, 2016
dhanson865 The story says that tesla made a deal with the owner not the insurance company. I'm assuming that means Tesla paid him better than insurance would have.
Once they did that the insurance company is no longer involved. It was sold and the claim canceled.�
Jan 22, 2016
stopcrazypp This has me wondering, if Tesla finds the issue was with the cargo, will Tesla announce that? Seems like it would conflict with goodwill with the owner (edit: actually as noted below, I remember the owner wasn't the one driving it at the time, so I guess this would be less of an issue).
- - - Updated - - -
This would presumably have to happen in the scene shortly after the fire, right? It's been so long afterwards, would something like that still be possible now?
I don't think the indirect method would be as useful in this case. The car was a used car and the one driving it wasn't the owner.�
Jan 22, 2016
3mp_kwh Glad it wasn't the super-charger.�
Jan 22, 2016
dsm363 So if it wasn't the Supercharger and charging wasn't the issue and the car itself didn't initially catch on fire but contents inside the car did the title as it stands now seems to indicate it was the act of Supercharging that caused the fire.�
Jan 22, 2016
ohmman It's possible to come to that conclusion, but by that logic (ok, stretching it a bit), Norway could be just as responsible as it is also in the title.�
Jan 22, 2016
bonnie
*cough cough troublemaker cough cough cough*�
Jan 22, 2016
Model 3 Sold or replaced on warranty. We just don't know what "deal" they made...�
Jan 22, 2016
smac I was in Norway summer last year, and stayed for a night in a small Bed + Breakfast in a rural part of the country (near the Trollstigen). I wasn't in the Tesla, but conversation somehow strayed onto EV's. I was surprised how not everyone is particularly happy with the skewing of benefits for EV's
So let's just stretch things a little further and say it was Norwegian Luddites setting fire to Teslas in revenge attacks�
Jan 22, 2016
Model 3 Yes, I think so. What better announcement can Tesla possible be making then "The fire was not caused by either the car or the supercharger, it was completely an error of the owner/driver with some dangerous cargo. But we still replaced it on warranty!" (or bought it back for a reasonable price). Neither the owner or the driver has been exposed in the media, and will feel that they are given the blame in public, and the car was after all replaced or sold for an acceptable price. So I can't see that it will be any conflict with the goodwill.
- - - Updated - - -
The police have concluded that it was no reason to believe any crime have been committed. So no, this is not what happened. (But yes, more then one have thought about this possibility.)�
Jan 22, 2016
scaesare Wait, how do we know this? Did I miss something? (entirely possible)�
Jan 22, 2016
thegruf wow that seems a bit mean, how much extra do you have to pay to get a full size bed?�
Jan 22, 2016
pgiralt My thought as well. I don't think anything has ruled out charging not being the issue. The only thing that has been said is that the supercharger itself was not a problem. Everything from the charge port to the battery is still suspect AFAIK.�
Jan 22, 2016
smac lol, well I have to say I would have paid a little more for a slightly wider path to the front door of the house
�
Jan 22, 2016
fredag All you non-Norwegians here on TMC seem so hung up in all these wild conspiracy theories (or hoverboard-theories), compared to the discussion on the Norwegian EV forum by Norwegian owners. Maybe because we're such calm, rational people :biggrin:, or maybe because many of you Americans have financial investements in TSLA, which makes it much more prudent for you to blame external factors.
But you're right, EVs are hated by many Norwegians who feel rich EV owners leech on society with all the incentives and don't pay their fair share of car- and road taxes. EV rapid chargers are sometimes vandalized, which could, of course, be dangerous. Though I haven't heard about systematic vandalization by EV-haters, just random vandalization.
I doubt this fire was caused by a vandalized or accidentally damaged SC plug, where missing isolation between pins in the plug created a spark, since the fire was internal to the car and the driver was able to retract the SC plug from the charge port after the fire had started.
My personal theory is that this fire was caused by sloppy service of the car's internal charging cabling or junction box at one of Tesla's overstretched Norwegian service centres. Maybe a big fat wire wasn't fastened properly, or some screws weren't tightened properly.
The timing indicates it had something to do with supercharging. This fire started right after charging started, which probably isn't a coincidence. Hoverboards aren't that useful in Norway in the middle of winter anyway, so that's fairly unlikely. Any baggage/christmas presents/leftover fireworks which could have ignited in the trunk, could have ignited at any time on the 2hr journey from Oslo to the Brokelandsheia supercharger, or indeed even before that.
Now the wreck is owned by Tesla, so I doubt we'll ever know what really happened.
Anyhow: Norwegian statistics show that ICE cars have much, much greater risk of fire than EVs. And Norway has the highest percentage of EVs in the world. Until these statistics change, I'm not worried. But just in case, since the normal interior back door handles won't work if the 12V is cut by a fire, I have showed my kids how to use the emergency back door openers under the back seats.�
Jan 22, 2016
smac Oi... I'm not from 'Murica, I'm Limey and proud of the fact
P.S. I agree with the rest of your appraisal of the situation. Most likely a fault in a Tesla supplied item, but still a very rare occurrence compared to an ICE.�
Jan 22, 2016
fredag Yeah, sorry, I wasn't really referring to you, just happened to hit reply to your post... :biggrin:�
Jan 22, 2016
Johann Koeber I reported a damaged SC cable on Jan 8. Have not been back to Feuchtwangen to check if it has been repaired.
�
Jan 22, 2016
Model 3 Careful! I tried to hint on something like this earlier and was told that speculation was useless here...�
Jan 22, 2016
smac It could also be a poor contact on the HV contactor, the only moving part in the charging chain, and something that might have not been called into action for months.�
Jan 22, 2016
Auzie Debris chromatography might be too late unless proper samples were taken at the scene of the fire (in metal cans, sealed). If there was accelerant present, it evaporated by now.
Norwegian reports do not mention any sniffers (dogs, people or instruments) being involved in the investigation.
If both the owner and the driver claim they had no cargo in the car at the time of the incident and they both check as credible people then the forensic tests may be redundant. The car was 2 days into new ownership, not enough time to stuff it up with clutter. It is also easy to establish if the driver is a smoker.
If the driver is a non-smoker (or did not smoke in the car) and cargo caught on fire, then it must have been a case of spontaneous combustion. Not impossible but highly unlikely.
The car circuitry arcing could have caused the fire. The fire is likely to cause arcing. Thus, even if evidence of arcing is found on copper wires in debris (if they haven't melted), it proves nothing as it is impossible to say which came first. However if we assume that arcing came first, it might be a useful data point.
The best bet in this investigation is to collect circumstantial evidence - owner and driver stories, car interference history and to put the pieces of the puzzle in the most logical and likely way.
Whatever the truth is I am pretty sure we will never know.
I agree with scaesare on this issue. I have thermography done regularly on thousands of electrical connections that have no good reason to go bad. There is never a report that does not show dozens of bad connections. They go bad due to wear, tear, vibration, age, dirt, poor workmanship, etc.
The reason often stays unknown. Often, dealing with the consequences and trying to figure out a root cause of one bad connection is more difficult and more expensive that preventative scanning of thousands of connections. Scanning is likely to catch bad connections early before they cause trouble.�
Jan 22, 2016
dsm363 Ok?�
Jan 22, 2016
Todd Burch I also agree with the theory that there was some sort of loose or incorrect connection somewhere just inside the supercharger connection area (junction box perhaps?)--probably something that was modified or replaced by the service center--and wasn't replaced or assembled correctly, or was defective.
Either way, given the extreme rarity of this event it seems clear to me that it's not an inherent design flaw.�
Jan 23, 2016
AmpedRealtor Looks like Tesla has taken the "no comment" route as I had predicted. If they haven't commented by now, I doubt they ever will. I believe this is the correct approach.�
Jan 23, 2016
ohmman I agree. Even if they determine it's the obvious birthday cake in the trunk, there's no benefit in returning the words "fire" and "Tesla" to the headlines.�
Jan 23, 2016
Model 3 Isn't this a bit to early to make that conclusion? The car is on the way to - or just arrived at - Tesla in the US, and they can start to investigate. Yes I am, just like you, impatiently waiting for an answer...�
Jan 23, 2016
AlMc I agree that we never hear about this again...unless an analyst asks about it at the Q4ER CC....And, I doubt they will as it seems like a very isolated case.�
Jan 23, 2016
smac Whilst part of me for pure geeky interest would like an answer, I think we are beyond it now. This is a good thing. If it were a Ford or GM, we'd never know (and frankly never care)
The only reason this was even in the press at all was because it was a Tesla. They get the benefits of click through and social media, but unfortunately that comes with the flip side of negative issues being magnified. IOW don't hate the player, hate the game
I'm with AlMc here it's likely to be completely forgotten about by Q1-16�
Jan 23, 2016
Model 3 Quite possible that you are right, I just thought it was too early to conclude jet. If nothing is heard by then end of February I will agree that we will not hear anything more...�
Feb 9, 2016
twestberg I hope they find something and if it's possible correct it. (Even better would be the outside cause, of course.)
I've taken a couple of cross-country trips with my dogs and left them in the car while supercharging. With this possibility out there I'm much less comfortable with that. (I regularly ping my app to make sure the a/c is on, but a fire is something much worse.)
ICE vehicles do catch fire, but they don't tend to do it if you've left them alone for 20 or 30 minutes while "refueling". Attempts to say "it could happen to anyone" don't really persuade me.�
Feb 9, 2016
ohmman It's hard to put numerical values on the risk, since Tesla doesn't publish Supercharging information on a regular basis. I wish they would, so that the risk metrics could be lined up against other things that we consider "unlikely" - a death on your cross-country drive, for instance - or being struck by lightning. And we have to remember that the fire may not be attributable to charging anyway. Without that information, any decisions we make relating to this are emotional, not rational.�
Feb 9, 2016
twestberg I agree entirely; it is unclear how to judge risk. It's also true that many of us go nonlinear thinking of the possibility that we would be putting our pets at risk.
My main point is that I hope Ampedrealtor is incorrect that Tesla will just go quiet on this. It is possible, of course, that the fire made it practically impossible to determine root cause and they will have no choice.�
Feb 9, 2016
WMAC Likelihood * Impact = Risk.�
Feb 9, 2016
Auzie Risk can only go up as the fleet ages and more and more people interfere with the aging cars�
Feb 10, 2016
FlasherZ static electricity gas pump fire - Google Search�
Feb 10, 2016
AWDtsla Cars do catch of fire after being parked. Sometimes in garages.�
Feb 10, 2016
AmpedRealtor It looks like I was right when I said the best thing for Tesla would be NO COMMENT. It appears that is their position. Good for them!�
Feb 10, 2016
kennybobby Yeah that Ostrich defense is always the best play. That really helps provide answers to all who were concerned about why it happened--oh yeah that's just great news!�
Feb 10, 2016
AlMc Yes. It is nice to get some more information about this. Agree with AR that this is unlikely to happen. I believe if TM felt it was a design issue with the car or the charger that they would notify owners...or if a problem with service..the service personnel. EX: They were quick to respond to undercarriage damage to the battery packs by road debris when it appeared it was not a single isolated case.�
Feb 10, 2016
bridaus Everyone who thinks Tesla should comment on this has never worked with or against a high powered lawyer. Try it sometime, it's eye opening.�
Feb 10, 2016
jerry33 Right. I recall a lawyer who argued that tires were prone to tear themselves apart because the top of the tire was going twice as fast at the bottom. The rationale was that the bottom of the tire was static in relation to the pavement so the top had to be going at double the speed.�
Feb 10, 2016
JohnSnowNW Don't forget about the seat-belt recall.�
Feb 11, 2016
AmpedRealtor I understand that a core group of folks want to know what happened, but from Tesla's perspective it obviously makes little sense to dredge up this incident to satisfy a tiny, fractional minority of people. The fire didn't impact the stock price, it had no material impact on Tesla's operations and it barely stayed in the news cycle for more than a day or two. The only place I continue to read about it is here.�
Feb 11, 2016
EdA That seems weird, when one unsecured seatbelt caused a global recall.�
Feb 11, 2016
JRP3 The seat belt was a manufacturing defect. The SC incident was not, or, whatever it was, cannot be determined. If they don't know what happened they can't apply a "fix".�
Feb 11, 2016
McRat Tesla is wise to "put out the fire" quietly (har).
There is a public perception that EV's are fire hazards, largely due to the huge press the 2 Chevrolet Volt fires received.
So far, only the 2 NHTSA test cars have been proven to be caused by the cars, none have occurred in the wild, that were not arson, structure fire, or poor charging wiring.
All makes of cars suffer from arson fires, but especially newer cars that the owners cannot afford.�
Feb 14, 2016
AmpedRealtor Well, if the fire had nothing to do with a fleet-wide issue, why would Tesla need to do anything? And bottom line is this: Tesla has said nothing. I think that's all the proof we need.�
Feb 14, 2016
EdA They wouldn't NEED to do anything but they have a history of doing things (blog posts, recalls, etc).�
Feb 14, 2016
JRP3 Yes, when there was an actual issue to be fixed. There quite likely is none here.�
Feb 16, 2016
AmpedRealtor Yes, when there is an issue. There is no issue here.�
Mar 17, 2016
Model 3 Tesla has (almost) found the reason for the fire:
Google Oversetter
�
Mar 17, 2016
Yggdrasill Yes, as hypothesised and discussed here in length, the fault turned out to be in the HVJB. I would have liked for them to say if the fire consumed the battery, but sadly that wasn't mentioned.
Or like was discussed here, at least: Short-Term TSLA Price Movements - 2016�
Mar 17, 2016
Ingineer Yes, I called it!
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Mar 17, 2016
ecarfan Is "the distribution box" something that was installed by the local electric utility company, or by Tesla?�
Mar 17, 2016
Yggdrasill Every Model S has a High Voltage Junction Box. It sits between the chargers underneath the rear seats, and distributes power between the inverter, battery, chargers and charge port. Obviously this falls entirely into the domain of Tesla.�
Mar 17, 2016
Model 3 It is "the distribution box" in the car - or HVJB as it is called.
Edit: Yggdrasill beat me on it...�
Mar 17, 2016
Ingineer Yes, the HVJB takes the power from the charge port and decides where to send it. If it's "normal" AC charging, it sends it to the on-board chargers which then convert the output to the proper voltage DC, which is then sent to the battery pack via the HVJB. In the case of supercharging, the HVJB has several large contactors (basically motorized switches) that send the DC supercharging power directly to the battery pack. When this occurs there is hundreds of amps flowing through there. Any slight added resistance can add up to a LOT of heat in no time. The original (gen 1) HVJB does not have any temperature sensing, whereas the gen2 units introduced in 2014 do.�
Mar 17, 2016
apacheguy So it sounds like they'll modify the voltage monitor which reduces the charge current at home to apply to supercharging as well. Voltage drops caused by increased resistance would be sensed and charge current would be reduced.�
Mar 17, 2016
Skotty eh....so when in 2014 was the gen2 HVJB introduced? I'm picking up a 2014 CPO tomorrow and this would be good to know.�
Mar 17, 2016
Ingineer I can't say for sure. Seems like sometime around VIN 30000. It's easy to check with a peek under the rear seat. I think all D cars have them as well.
Just lift up the rear seat cushion (pull up on each side with a sharp yank), then if the silver box in the middle has a lid with a large raised section on the front it is G1. If it has a relatively flat cover, it's G2.
You can also tell by the large charger module on the passenger side. If it has a series of screws visible on the top of it's lid, it's G1 style. The G2 has it's screws on the side.�
Mar 17, 2016
Skotty Thanks. I'll be supercharging rather frequently, so if it's a G1 I might want to keep a closer eye on it. I'll check it out. Sounds like it will probably be a G2 though, as mine is P41819.�
Mar 17, 2016
Ingineer Yeah, I think you're OK.
Even with a G1, I wouldn't worry about it. It's highly unlikely. You are many times more likely to die in a fatal car accident on the way to/from the SpC!�
Mar 17, 2016
DNAinaGoodWay Tesla will update the Model S software for safer charging following a Supercharger fire - Electrek https://apple.news/AgPvs4culM8O6Cff8nJhdEw�
Mar 17, 2016
Johan My S which is a very early EU build had to change charge port due to a bad connection and I saw from the work order they'd changed my HVJB to gen 2.�
Mar 17, 2016
wcalvin For both on-board and supercharger charging sequences, the system ramps up the current. I had assumed that that was to check voltage drops at places like the HVJB, just in case of bad contacts and the ensuing heat issues.
No so? If so, what's new about this--are they just going slower up the ramp?�
Mar 17, 2016
Johan Yes no apparent reason why they would have to limit charging, just ramp it more carefully or setting tighter tolerances for what's accepted by the firmware as normal. In my work order it says the testing they did was: "test driven the car, checked that the insulation values have been within normal the whole time".�
Mar 17, 2016
tom66 I also suspected the HVJB (although not the battery bolts at fault of course), interesting to see Tesla came to the same conclusion. It would be good to know what the root cause was but I'm guessing the car was too badly destroyed to tell or Tesla don't want to say.
�
Mar 17, 2016
Lump Sounds like those of us with the G1 won't see much benefit from the upcoming OTA since we lack the sensors, based on the way Tesla handled the 1 seatbelt discovery I assume a recall would be issued?�
Mar 17, 2016
Johan I think we lack the temp sensors but not the ability to detect failing insulation through analyzing the voltage and current flow. Thus it becomes possible to target it by making the software less tolerant to deviations. And then the boxes may get changed over time when in for other things.�
Mar 17, 2016
Ingineer The only way I can think of detecting problems in G1 is to compare the voltage at the pack to the voltage exiting the supercharger and if that voltage drop is too great then either reduce current or shut down the session with an error (or both).�
Mar 17, 2016
Johan Like I said, I'm sure they've been doing this all along and that the software update would be to tighten up the tolerances.�
Mar 17, 2016
wdolson I believe the car was a CPO. I know it was purchased only a couple of days before the fire. Maybe the technician who went over the car accidentally left something in there that caused a short the first time it was plugged into a supercharger? That would be my first guess. I'd look at the service logs from when the car was prepped for CPO sale and see if anything was opened up in the charging circuitry.�
Mar 17, 2016
Andyw2100 Well aren't you just Mr. Sunshine!�
Mar 18, 2016
Model 3 ... or the technician replaced the HVJB with a faulty Gen2?
�
Mar 18, 2016
Ingineer Yes, this was my guess, though the Gen2 unit has thermal sensing. Unless the temp rise was so fast in the front where the charge port connections are that the temp sensor in the back couldn't register it in time.
There is a TSB for replacing Gen 1 EU spec chargers with Gen 2. That would then require HVJB replacement.
All it would take is an improperly tightened fastener.�
Mar 18, 2016
Auzie If you like sunshine, here's a bit more: It is certain that each one of us will die. Nothing to worry about, there's no evidence to suggest that dying is worse than living�
Mar 18, 2016
FlasherZ Well, not *certain*... 98% of us will die at some point in our lives...
�
Mar 21, 2016
jeffro01 Out of curiosity to those who have advanced knowledge of these things, is there anything Tesla can do from a small scale fire suppression perspective? In other words, does the technology exist to put in some sort of temperature activated expandable foam that would help in these rare instances? Say the HVJB hits a specific temp range and a canister of expandable foam explodes, in conjunction with the current being cutoff, that fills the HBJB with foam thus putting out the "fire". Yeah that certainly would likely render the HVJB useless but in the 1 and 2.5 million chance...
Or am I simply proposing an unreasonable solution to a very rare problem that is likely already addressed via firmware?
Jeff�
Mar 21, 2016
David99 The best thing to do is cut the power source when temperature exceeds a safe limit. That solves the problem right away. A small fire extinguisher type system is like putting a bandaid over a problem without addressing the problem. It's better to prevent a fire from starting by turning off a system that is starting to overheat before it catches on fire. As far as I understand that's what Tesla is doing with the software.�
Mar 21, 2016
Todd Burch Agree with David99. That's the easiest, safest, least costly, and lowest weight solution.�
Mar 22, 2016
Saghost Military aircraft systems mostly work by denying the fire oxygen, substituting an inert gas. One system I'm somewhat familiar with that could be scaled to HVJB size is pretty much an oversize car airbag inflator module without the airbag - when it goes off the propellant burns and produces an expanding gas front that will likely blow out the fire and certainly leaves the enclosed area filled with the inert combustion gasses.
However, if Tesla knows where the heat is being developed and monitors that, cutting power before it gets to fire temperatures would certainly seem wiser - it should prevent damage to the systems as well as the fire.
Even if they don't know where the power is going or have temperature sensors in all the relevant places, doing a power checksum would catch situations like this before they became critical. The car is in digital communication with the Supercharger, so the charger can pass it how much power the charger thinks it is delivering. The car is monitoring the battery pack, it knows how much power is arriving at the pack (and also how much is turning to heat in the pack and how much is being dissipated by the cooling systems, but those aren't central to this discussion.)
If the car compares those two and notices a significant discrepancy between the power the SpC thinks it is delivering and the power the battery is receiving, the car could flag the situation, report an error and disable Supercharging until it is checked (or do some sort of recycle on the systems on one or both sides first.)
Walter�
Mar 22, 2016
wdolson Commercial aircraft have those systems too. But there are some critical differences between aircraft and cars which contribute to why they aren't in cars. Unless under attack, fire is pretty rare in both vehicles. There are a lot more care fires because there are over 250 million cars on US roads alone. However aircraft have some bigger problems with fire than cars. If your car catches fire, you can usually pull over and get out pretty easily. If a plane catches fire in the air, there is no place to go except down. Aircraft also cost a lot more than cars. A cheap military plane costs a few million and an airliner can cost $100 million.
Adding fire suppression systems is worth the extra cost. Compared to the cost of the entire plane, it isn't much. But adding a fire suppression system to a car could add a few thousand to the cost of the car for a system that will probably never get used. And it it's installed, it needs to be inspected and maintained.
Overall, it's cheaper to let a few cars burn to the ground than build fire suppression systems into every car. Safety features in cars tend to focus on saving occupants and sacrificing the car.
Monitoring battery and charger heat and making adjustments is very cheap to do and helps to prevent fires in the first place. No system is perfect and it sounds like the fire in Norway was a situation that slipped through the preverbial cracks.�
Mar 22, 2016
FlasherZ Perhaps one of these:
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![[?IMG]](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/blogger_img_proxy/AEn0k_ukdvgqe00rHEM-odqSjIyrfOH0UwMRLXeVN5Ewk1bbWYyst6xLZi8KVYEEMy1odhyl82PEj1QCLyAqHEccGef7cSTZ7Lmzy2KODuwsQXIO3An3q0B9o_gCs_uOfKr1K60EGfh3OnpNz2wDd2gqbsjMR-g=s0-d)
(Years ago I worked in a full-service station that had these. Nothing like a big globe of carbon tet with really thin glass to serve as a target...)�
Mar 22, 2016
MP3Mike Or maybe build an Elide Fire Extinguishing Ball into the area... Of course they say they are only good for 5 years without maintenance.�
Apr 11, 2016
jgs Besides cost, there is also the fact that it's almost always possible to pull your car over and walk away from it within a minute or two of noticing a fire. Try that with a plane.�
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