Mar 17, 2016
Ingineer Yes, I called it!
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Mar 17, 2016
ecarfan Is "the distribution box" something that was installed by the local electric utility company, or by Tesla?�
Mar 17, 2016
Yggdrasill Every Model S has a High Voltage Junction Box. It sits between the chargers underneath the rear seats, and distributes power between the inverter, battery, chargers and charge port. Obviously this falls entirely into the domain of Tesla.�
Mar 17, 2016
Model 3 It is "the distribution box" in the car - or HVJB as it is called.
Edit: Yggdrasill beat me on it...
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Mar 17, 2016
Ingineer Yes, the HVJB takes the power from the charge port and decides where to send it. If it's "normal" AC charging, it sends it to the on-board chargers which then convert the output to the proper voltage DC, which is then sent to the battery pack via the HVJB. In the case of supercharging, the HVJB has several large contactors (basically motorized switches) that send the DC supercharging power directly to the battery pack. When this occurs there is hundreds of amps flowing through there. Any slight added resistance can add up to a LOT of heat in no time. The original (gen 1) HVJB does not have any temperature sensing, whereas the gen2 units introduced in 2014 do.�
Mar 17, 2016
apacheguy So it sounds like they'll modify the voltage monitor which reduces the charge current at home to apply to supercharging as well. Voltage drops caused by increased resistance would be sensed and charge current would be reduced.�
Mar 17, 2016
Skotty eh....so when in 2014 was the gen2 HVJB introduced? I'm picking up a 2014 CPO tomorrow and this would be good to know.�
Mar 17, 2016
Ingineer I can't say for sure. Seems like sometime around VIN 30000. It's easy to check with a peek under the rear seat. I think all D cars have them as well.
Just lift up the rear seat cushion (pull up on each side with a sharp yank), then if the silver box in the middle has a lid with a large raised section on the front it is G1. If it has a relatively flat cover, it's G2.
You can also tell by the large charger module on the passenger side. If it has a series of screws visible on the top of it's lid, it's G1 style. The G2 has it's screws on the side.�
Mar 17, 2016
Skotty Thanks. I'll be supercharging rather frequently, so if it's a G1 I might want to keep a closer eye on it. I'll check it out. Sounds like it will probably be a G2 though, as mine is P41819.�
Mar 17, 2016
Ingineer Yeah, I think you're OK.
Even with a G1, I wouldn't worry about it. It's highly unlikely. You are many times more likely to die in a fatal car accident on the way to/from the SpC!�
Mar 17, 2016
DNAinaGoodWay Tesla will update the Model S software for safer charging following a Supercharger fire - Electrek https://apple.news/AgPvs4culM8O6Cff8nJhdEw�
Mar 17, 2016
Johan My S which is a very early EU build had to change charge port due to a bad connection and I saw from the work order they'd changed my HVJB to gen 2.�
Mar 17, 2016
wcalvin For both on-board and supercharger charging sequences, the system ramps up the current. I had assumed that that was to check voltage drops at places like the HVJB, just in case of bad contacts and the ensuing heat issues.
No so? If so, what's new about this--are they just going slower up the ramp?�
Mar 17, 2016
Johan Yes no apparent reason why they would have to limit charging, just ramp it more carefully or setting tighter tolerances for what's accepted by the firmware as normal. In my work order it says the testing they did was: "test driven the car, checked that the insulation values have been within normal the whole time".�
Mar 17, 2016
tom66 I also suspected the HVJB (although not the battery bolts at fault of course), interesting to see Tesla came to the same conclusion. It would be good to know what the root cause was but I'm guessing the car was too badly destroyed to tell or Tesla don't want to say.
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Mar 17, 2016
Lump Sounds like those of us with the G1 won't see much benefit from the upcoming OTA since we lack the sensors, based on the way Tesla handled the 1 seatbelt discovery I assume a recall would be issued?�
Mar 17, 2016
Johan I think we lack the temp sensors but not the ability to detect failing insulation through analyzing the voltage and current flow. Thus it becomes possible to target it by making the software less tolerant to deviations. And then the boxes may get changed over time when in for other things.�
Mar 17, 2016
Ingineer The only way I can think of detecting problems in G1 is to compare the voltage at the pack to the voltage exiting the supercharger and if that voltage drop is too great then either reduce current or shut down the session with an error (or both).�
Mar 17, 2016
Johan Like I said, I'm sure they've been doing this all along and that the software update would be to tighten up the tolerances.�
Mar 17, 2016
wdolson I believe the car was a CPO. I know it was purchased only a couple of days before the fire. Maybe the technician who went over the car accidentally left something in there that caused a short the first time it was plugged into a supercharger? That would be my first guess. I'd look at the service logs from when the car was prepped for CPO sale and see if anything was opened up in the charging circuitry.�
Mar 17, 2016
Andyw2100 Well aren't you just Mr. Sunshine!�
Mar 18, 2016
Model 3 ... or the technician replaced the HVJB with a faulty Gen2?
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Mar 18, 2016
Ingineer Yes, this was my guess, though the Gen2 unit has thermal sensing. Unless the temp rise was so fast in the front where the charge port connections are that the temp sensor in the back couldn't register it in time.
There is a TSB for replacing Gen 1 EU spec chargers with Gen 2. That would then require HVJB replacement.
All it would take is an improperly tightened fastener.�
Mar 18, 2016
Auzie If you like sunshine, here's a bit more: It is certain that each one of us will die. Nothing to worry about, there's no evidence to suggest that dying is worse than living�
Mar 18, 2016
FlasherZ Well, not *certain*... 98% of us will die at some point in our lives...
�
Mar 21, 2016
jeffro01 Out of curiosity to those who have advanced knowledge of these things, is there anything Tesla can do from a small scale fire suppression perspective? In other words, does the technology exist to put in some sort of temperature activated expandable foam that would help in these rare instances? Say the HVJB hits a specific temp range and a canister of expandable foam explodes, in conjunction with the current being cutoff, that fills the HBJB with foam thus putting out the "fire". Yeah that certainly would likely render the HVJB useless but in the 1 and 2.5 million chance...
Or am I simply proposing an unreasonable solution to a very rare problem that is likely already addressed via firmware?
Jeff�
Mar 21, 2016
David99 The best thing to do is cut the power source when temperature exceeds a safe limit. That solves the problem right away. A small fire extinguisher type system is like putting a bandaid over a problem without addressing the problem. It's better to prevent a fire from starting by turning off a system that is starting to overheat before it catches on fire. As far as I understand that's what Tesla is doing with the software.�
Mar 21, 2016
Todd Burch Agree with David99. That's the easiest, safest, least costly, and lowest weight solution.�
Mar 22, 2016
Saghost Military aircraft systems mostly work by denying the fire oxygen, substituting an inert gas. One system I'm somewhat familiar with that could be scaled to HVJB size is pretty much an oversize car airbag inflator module without the airbag - when it goes off the propellant burns and produces an expanding gas front that will likely blow out the fire and certainly leaves the enclosed area filled with the inert combustion gasses.
However, if Tesla knows where the heat is being developed and monitors that, cutting power before it gets to fire temperatures would certainly seem wiser - it should prevent damage to the systems as well as the fire.
Even if they don't know where the power is going or have temperature sensors in all the relevant places, doing a power checksum would catch situations like this before they became critical. The car is in digital communication with the Supercharger, so the charger can pass it how much power the charger thinks it is delivering. The car is monitoring the battery pack, it knows how much power is arriving at the pack (and also how much is turning to heat in the pack and how much is being dissipated by the cooling systems, but those aren't central to this discussion.)
If the car compares those two and notices a significant discrepancy between the power the SpC thinks it is delivering and the power the battery is receiving, the car could flag the situation, report an error and disable Supercharging until it is checked (or do some sort of recycle on the systems on one or both sides first.)
Walter�
Mar 22, 2016
wdolson Commercial aircraft have those systems too. But there are some critical differences between aircraft and cars which contribute to why they aren't in cars. Unless under attack, fire is pretty rare in both vehicles. There are a lot more care fires because there are over 250 million cars on US roads alone. However aircraft have some bigger problems with fire than cars. If your car catches fire, you can usually pull over and get out pretty easily. If a plane catches fire in the air, there is no place to go except down. Aircraft also cost a lot more than cars. A cheap military plane costs a few million and an airliner can cost $100 million.
Adding fire suppression systems is worth the extra cost. Compared to the cost of the entire plane, it isn't much. But adding a fire suppression system to a car could add a few thousand to the cost of the car for a system that will probably never get used. And it it's installed, it needs to be inspected and maintained.
Overall, it's cheaper to let a few cars burn to the ground than build fire suppression systems into every car. Safety features in cars tend to focus on saving occupants and sacrificing the car.
Monitoring battery and charger heat and making adjustments is very cheap to do and helps to prevent fires in the first place. No system is perfect and it sounds like the fire in Norway was a situation that slipped through the preverbial cracks.�
Mar 22, 2016
FlasherZ Perhaps one of these:
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(Years ago I worked in a full-service station that had these. Nothing like a big globe of carbon tet with really thin glass to serve as a target...)�
Mar 22, 2016
MP3Mike Or maybe build an Elide Fire Extinguishing Ball into the area... Of course they say they are only good for 5 years without maintenance.�
Apr 11, 2016
jgs Besides cost, there is also the fact that it's almost always possible to pull your car over and walk away from it within a minute or two of noticing a fire. Try that with a plane.�
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