Thứ Năm, 24 tháng 11, 2016

Tesla Stores part 2

  • Jul 31, 2012
    KBF
    I should add my 2 cents worth, since I was brought into the conversation anyway :wink:

    My generation and younger are typically researching (and buying) everything online. When I last bought a car from a dealer, I knew more than the salesman did, although it was difficult to research exactly what their upsells were about (you know, when you are brought into the manager's office and he tries to force you to buy extra coverage of all kinds, prepay service, and all that crap). I hate it. It's almost as bad as buying mattresses, that industry does its best to make side-by-side comparisons impossible.

    So essentially, dealers add little other than markup. Test drives are nice, but you don't need a dealer for that. I'll be giving out a lot of test drives once my S arrives, no store required. I already often do tire service and oil changes at independent shops.

    But the dealer isn't entirely at fault. I have a good friend who is in charge of the warranty department at a local Ford dealership, and the manufacturers do their best to weasel out of warranty and screw over the dealerships. It's a bad situation. Direct warranty is a HUGE benefit to Tesla's model (cut down on paperwork etc.)

    Basically for me, the Tesla store model is one major reason why I'm not waiting for BMW or Ford or others to come out with a real electric (designed as an electric). There are hurdles to overcome, but if I can spare my kids the hassle of "going into the back room" to fend off last-minute add-ons, it will be worth it and the world will be a better place. :) [/sermon]

    P.S. Tesla, I'd love a service centre within 250 miles of my house!
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  • Aug 1, 2012
    jerry33
    That's a terrible sterotype. My guess is that I'm quite a bit older than you and I've been buying almost everything but cat litter and perishable groceries on line for over 15 years now. This includes things like my last two car purchases (Prius), the roof on my house, the plants in my yard, clothes, computers, etc.
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  • Aug 1, 2012
    KBF
    :) You're above average, cheers! It is a generalization, a trend and I agree that more and more older people buy more online, too. My dad is starting to but he still occasionally likes "the dealership game". Even he's getting tired of it, though. Buying direct makes a lot of sense in the digital age.
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  • Aug 1, 2012
    qwk
    Most people, including myself, would rather get kidney punched rather than go through the dealership buying experience. It's time to let that business die.
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  • Aug 1, 2012
    brianman
  • Aug 1, 2012
    BenTesla
    Please listen to what I'm saying!!! The franchise model would allow for quick/ quicker expansion. Tesla can still control everything down to the uniforms the employees wear but they should really have a better system to offer test drives and help people learn about the cars. I know Tesla's and electric cars in general require less maintenance but to have a Tesla trained mechanic near by is essential. I'm never said create a traditional dealership model, I said expand faster and franchised dealerships (in whatever way they see fit) would be one way of doing that.

    To summarize: even if they put a stick in the group with a Tesla logo on it. I want a convenient way to receive test drives, service and to see new models in person.
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  • Aug 1, 2012
    brianman
    We are listening. That doesn't mean we have to agree with you.

    [1] They are production constrained, not demand constrained. Expansion is not currently the priority.
    [2] No, they can't. There are legal constraints on the franchise relationship.
    [3] Franchises wouldn't move this needle in either direction. Current contraint is limited number of vehicles available for test drives from the production line.
    [4] Asserting this doesn't make it fact. What makes you think franchises will be better for mechanic availability than service centers? We already have evidence that franchise mechanics are likely more expensive for customers, which is undesirable.
    [5] Again, production constrained. Expanding faster right now just increases costs with no product delivery income to counterbalance it.
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  • Aug 1, 2012
    dflye
    In retail, you really don't want to ramp up the sales force prior to the manufacturing ramp up. Otherwise that leads to very, very annoyed customers waiting for their perpetually delayed purchase to be delivered. (Which reminds me I need to cancel an Amazon technical book pre-order of over a year ago where apparently the author took the initial payment and ran!)

    Also, the franchise model is essentially based upon graft: which is money needlessly spent if the vendor just goes direct.
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  • Aug 1, 2012
    vfx
    There has been gathering dealership experiences from all over the country. Salespeople are not doing a very good jobs selling EVs. It is nearly the same s last time with GM's EV1 (Watch WKTEC) We all know that EVs do not maximize parts revenue for the dealership and sales people are poorly trained and don't seem to care (except a few). People are steered away from EVs, Dealerships keep them in back or let stock go dry.

    One comment from sales people is that they have to spend a lot more time explaining all the new tech of an EV. Something a Tesla store does a thousand times a day. If there are 15 ICEs models on the lot it's just plain an easier sale to show what the buyer is familiar with, The quicker you sell the quicker they go onto the next one.
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  • Aug 2, 2012
    dsm363
    I think the only way for the franchise model to work would be to not allow them to sell anything else since they could shift customers towards their higher profit (more service dollars) ICEs. If that's accurate then why wouldn't Tesla just control everything themselves?
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  • Aug 2, 2012
    Doug_G
    From what I have seen, many dealerships and salespeople are actively hostile to EVs. I think major automakers will have to build a completely separate brand and dealer network, a la (now-defunct) Saturn, to be successful with them.
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  • Aug 2, 2012
    jerry33
    That's certainly been my experience. EVs and Hybrids are sold only if you hold a gun to the salespersons head. Salespeople are paid to move the cars sitting on the lot. These are always the cars that the dealer makes the most money on.
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  • Aug 2, 2012
    qwk
    Again, no thanks. Franchised dealerships screw their customers much too often, and like the other forum members pointed out, the salesmen don't know much and try to push people into a sale of a vehicle they don't want. Tesla is going about this the right way.

    If you really are interested in this vehicle, a flight to the nearest store for a test drive(when available to non reservation holders) is most likely only a few hundred bucks. That is definately not impossible for someone who buys a car in this price range.
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  • Aug 2, 2012
    KBF
    Air miles are great.
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  • Aug 2, 2012
    BenTesla
    So I appreciate finally getting responds that addressed my concerns but my next question is Does Apple own their stores?
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  • Aug 2, 2012
    BenTesla
    {Looked it up myself} No there not franchised but they do have 'certified sellers'. I don't think the ability to get a weekend test drive and when I purchase a vehicle be able to go to a mechanic that you've trained. If I was to buy a BMW or a Benz these are things they'd give me, why wouldn't Tesla want to compete on a level playing field? Like I said earlier I'm going to buy a car no matter what but how do they expect normal people to buy Tesla's? If not franchises (You all seem to be VERY against the idea) What?
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  • Aug 2, 2012
    spleen
    yes, they do. Not the floor space (since that's obviously leased from mall management) but everything else including all the employees.
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  • Aug 2, 2012
    brianman
    I think you're asking three questions:

    (1) Why doesn't Tesla offer test drives at the store like BMW/Mercedes do at their franchises?
    They've already said they plan to do so, and hinted at sometime in September.

    (2) Isn't a franchise-based test drive experience better than a store test drive?
    I have no idea where you get this expectation from. I would expect them to be equivalent.

    (3) Why wouldn't Tesla want to compete on a level playing field?
    Because they'd prefer to compete on an advantageous playing field instead. Stores have more flexibility than franchises due to legally enforced requirements on franchise-manufacturer relationships.
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  • Aug 2, 2012
    dsm363
    Tesla doesn't want to be on their playing field, they'll create their own. As Tesla grows, so will their store and service network. Define 'normal' people too. What do you mean by "when I purchase a vehicle be able to go to a mechanic that you've trained". Do you mean that Tesla trained? All of their service people are Tesla employees so they are trained by Tesla. Not sure how it would get better than that.

    Would it be ideal for Tesla to have a store in every city above 100,000 people? Sure but that would cost a ton of money. Tesla can find more than enough customers within 200 miles of the major cities they'll have store in over the next decade. If they're successful, then I'm sure they move out to smaller markets as their need dictates.
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  • Aug 2, 2012
    vfx

    Ben,

    There is another problem you may want to look up. Tesla has decided NOT to go the dealership franchise route. Federal law says an auto maker cannot open a store that would compete with dealerships. That would have them direct violation of laws that the powerful dealership lobby had enacted in the 40's when automakers tried to do this.

    So if Tesla allowed even one franchise they would have to close all their stores and they would have to go to a fully franchised model. Or they continue the path they are on and only have manufacture owned stores. You can do one or the other, but not both.

    So you might as well let it go and be patient to when they get to your area.
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  • Aug 2, 2012
    PopSmith
    I won't say there is "No way". I traveled to Colorado (from Salt Lake City) to test drive the Roadster a while ago. I'm currently in California and drove an hour "out of the way" to see the Model S (Beta) they've got on display at the Fashion Island store in Newport Beach.
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  • Aug 5, 2012
    medved
    Toronto Tesla store, Yorkdale Shopping Centre will open in November.
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  • Aug 5, 2012
    KBF
    Yay! I remember back in early 2011 when it was "opening this summer"...
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  • Aug 5, 2012
    medved
    But this time I have the info from an employee who was hired to work in that store. So he should know.
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  • Aug 6, 2012
    KBF
    Sounds good. I'm not doubting your info, it's just that back then the info came from Tesla's official website. :wink:
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  • Aug 15, 2012
    grisnjam
    At the Austin Texas test drive event today a number of reps were saying that Austin would get a store and a service center.
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  • Aug 27, 2012
    Yggdrasill
    I'm visiting San Francisco and possibly Los Angeles in about three weeks, which leads me to the question - what store should I visit? Menlo Park?

    Do they have mostly the same stuff? Will I be able to see the Model X prototype anywhere?

    I'll appreciate any intel. ;)
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  • Aug 27, 2012
    jcstp
    Twitter / TeslaMotors: Santana Row welcomes its first ...

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  • Aug 27, 2012
    Yggdrasill
    I actually noticed that on twitter after posting. I've sent an email to my sales rep; hopefully she'll be able to reserve a test drive via email. If I don't need to be a US citizen or anything, of course. I'd probably be among the first ten or so Norwegians to test drive. Maybe the first? :cool:

    I also asked if she knew if the Model X would be possible to see somewhere, so maybe I won't need intel, after all. (I can hope, at least.)
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  • Aug 27, 2012
    ggr
    A big Tesla Model S outline has recently appeared on the construction walls at the University Towne Center mall in La Jolla (San Diego). I think I reported that I'd been told it was going to be there some months ago, and not in Fashion Valley mall. This seems to be confirmation. This is a much better location for it.
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  • Aug 27, 2012
    mcornwell
    Awesome news ggr. UTC is about 1/2 the distance for me compared to Fashion Valley, and I agree, it's a much better, more central location for San Diegans. Should be interesting to see where they put a service center. I'm guessing somewhere on Miramar Road since it's close to UTC and is already a hub for repair facilities.
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  • Aug 28, 2012
    mcornwell
    ggr (and other San Diegans), Tesla has added a San Diego service location to their job opening page, and it indeed will be off of Miramar Road, on Trade Street, about 1/2 way between I-805 and I-15 (~4 miles from the soon to open UTC store). No open positions are currently listed for this location.
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  • Aug 28, 2012
    vfx
    Can some snap a pic of the store in it's "before" state?

    - - - Updated - - -

    The X travels around. Could be inn LA, OC or SF. Or none. Call the stores as they usually know when they get it in advance.
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  • Aug 28, 2012
    gg_got_a_tesla
    May be worth visiting both Santana Row and Menlo Park. They have pretty much the same interactive displays, skateboard and beta cars but...

    - SR's more "happening" with a lot of folks around, on weekends in particular. Of course, Santana Row has lots of shopping and dining options too. You may even see a new reservation holder being given a "giant check"!

    - MP's more roomy, laid back and quieter. It has a 'museum' of sorts including Roadster mules, the Model S Alpha with its entrails and such.

    The test drive route from SR apparently is better with Interstate 280 thrown into the mix. The MP test drive sticks to city streets including the busy El Camino Real so, may not be as much fun.
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  • Aug 28, 2012
    vfx
    They opened a "delivery" area at the factory. Is that open to the public?
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  • Aug 28, 2012
    gg_got_a_tesla
    Unlikely but, would be great if they did for the fanboys to show up :)

    Again, a question that ggr might be able to answer after he picks up his S today at the factory - can the rescue puppy not wait?! ;)
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  • Aug 28, 2012
    NigelM
    ggr's delivery delayed.
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  • Aug 28, 2012
    pharma5
  • Aug 30, 2012
    mcornwell
  • Aug 30, 2012
    jcstp
    it says "footlocker" above the tesla-billboard
    guess your foot will be locked to the go-pedal when you use the tesla ;-)
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  • Aug 30, 2012
    Dino Saver
    UTC Store

    mcornwell, you just made my day. I'm a reservation holder, but I haven't done a test drive yet. I've been wondering where I'll be able to do one. UTC is much better than Mission Valley. I hope they'll let me drop into La Jolla from the I-5 NB. I love that little stretch that loops around Soledad. Maybe we should found a north county owner's club. I'm in Olivenhain. See me on Zee Maps.
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  • Aug 30, 2012
    mcornwell
    You're only a few miles away from me Dino, I'm in La Costa. ggr (of San Diego) should be getting his Sig any day, and Dadaleus (Solana Beach) is Sig eighty-something, so hopefully once they get theirs we can all meetup.

    And it looks like we have more reservation holders in North County than the rest of San Diego, so yes, it was wise of Tesla to put the store in UTC.
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  • Sep 17, 2012
    markb1
    I think this was changed fairly recently. The Tesla site now lists a bunch of upcoming stores and service centers:

    Tesla Stores and Service Centers | Tesla Motors

    In some instances, opening time frames are given if you click the link. For instance, the San Diego UTC store is Fall 2012.
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  • Sep 17, 2012
    dflye
    <rant>

    What I find annoying (yet is typical of the Tesla web site) is the map shown on http://www.teslamotors.com/service :

    http://www.teslamotors.com/tesla_theme/images/store/service_map.jpg?20120911

    While the map legend indicates it includes service centers opening by March 1st (of some unspecified year assumed to be 2013), it doesn't include the service center in Raleigh NC, which shows up fine on their map by ZIP:

    Tesla Stores and Service Centers for ZIP 27613

    And on the detail page for that service center:

    Raleigh Service Center | Tesla Motors

    Where it states:

    "Our Raleigh service center will open by March of next year."

    Can we pass around the hat and gather funds for TM to get an actual legit web site hosting and content providing company? They obviously have proven numerous times in the past that they can't get their act together on that front.

    Which is why most everyone is posting and debating meaningful content HERE and not THERE!

    </rant>
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  • Sep 18, 2012
    NigelM
    @dflye: Ummm, isn't this Raleigh?

    service_map.jpg
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  • Sep 21, 2012
    NigelM
    Tesla press announcement this morning:

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  • Sep 27, 2012
    Brian H
    No Ranger coverage of Mexico? Probably prudent.
    :scared::wink:
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  • Sep 27, 2012
    Robert.Boston
    Heh, even driving your Model S into Mexico voids the warranty. Better push the car back across the border before you call the Tesla Ranger!
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  • Sep 27, 2012
    Kipernicus
  • Sep 30, 2012
    joefee
    Sorry for HTML and if this is a repeat but here are locations world wide from the Tesla Career�s web site:

    <option value='45' >Australia-Sydney-Service</option>
    <option value='90' >Canada-Montreal-Store</option>
    <option value='16' >Canada-Toronto-Store</option>
    <option value='98' >Canada-Vancouver-Robson Street-Store</option>
    <option value='30' >China-Shanghai</option>
    <option value='28' >Denmark-Copenhagen-Store</option>
    <option value='41' >France-Paris-41 Ave Kleber-Store</option>
    <option value='9' >Germany-Munich-Blumenstrasse-Store</option>
    <option value='31' >Hong Kong-Service</option>
    <option value='27' >Italy-Milan-Store</option>
    <option value='19' >Japan-Tokyo-Store-Service</option>
    <option value='34' >Marin</option>
    <option value='47' >Netherlands-Eindhoven-Store</option>
    <option value='42' >Norway-Olso-Store-Service</option>
    <option value='14' >Orange County</option>
    <option value='32' >Singapore</option>
    <option value='23' >Switzerland-Zurich-Store</option>
    <option value='10' >Taiwan</option>
    <option value='48' >United Kingdom-Maidenhead-Office</option>
    <option value='55' >United Kingdom-London-Service</option>
    <option value='46' >United Kingdom-Wymondham</option>
    <option value='100' >US-AZ-Scottsdale-Fashion Square-Store</option>
    <option value='44' >US-CA-Fremont-Office-Service</option>
    <option value='21' >US-CA-Los Angeles-Office</option>
    <option value='2' >US-CA-Menlo Park-Store-Service</option>
    <option value='29' >US-CA-Palo Alto-Deer Creek-Office-HQ</option>
    <option value='52' >US-CA-Newport Beach-Service</option>
    <option value='17' >US-CA-San Diego-Fashion Valley-Store</option>
    <option value='50' >US-CA-San Jose-Santana Row-Store</option>
    <option value='3' >US-CA-San Carlos</option>
    <option value='93' >US-CA-Los Angeles-Santa Monica-Store</option>
    <option value='97' >US-CA-Newport Beach-Fashion Island-Store</option>
    <option value='99' >US-CA-San Rafael-Service</option>
    <option value='18' >US-CO-Boulder</option>
    <option value='51' >US-CO-Denver-Park Meadows-Store</option>
    <option value='15' >US-DC-Washington DC-K Street-Store</option>
    <option value='11' >US-FL-Dania Beach-Tigertail Blvd-Service</option>
    <option value='103' >US-FL-Miami-Lincoln Rd-Store</option>
    <option value='104' >US-FL-Orlando-Millenia-Store</option>
    <option value='105' >US-FL-Tampa-Service</option>
    <option value='91' >US-GA-Atlanta-Lenox-Store</option>
    <option value='7' >US-IL-Chicago-West Grand-Service</option>
    <option value='95' >US-IL-Oak Brook-Oakbrook-Service</option>
    <option value='20' >US-MA-Boston-Store</option>
    <option value='4' >US-MA-Michigan</option>
    <option value='6' >US-NY-New York-West 25th-Store</option>
    <option value='92' >US-NY-White Plains-Westchester Ave-Store</option>
    <option value='38' >US-OK-Oklahoma-Service</option>
    <option value='101' >US-OR-Portland-Washington Square-Store</option>
    <option value='35' >US-PA-Philadelphia-King of Prussia-Store</option>
    <option value='37' >US-TX-Dallas-North Park-Store</option>
    <option value='54' >US-TX-Houston-Store-Service</option>
    <option value='56' >US-TN-Tennessee</option>
    <option value='102' >US-WA-Bellevue-Bellevue Sqr-Store</option>
    <option value='96' >US-WA-Seattle-Service</option>
    <option value='12' >US-WA-Seattle-Westlake-Store</option>
    <option value='106' >US-AZ-Phoenix-Service</option>
    <option value='108' >US-MO-St. Louis-Service</option>
    <option value='107' >US-NC-Raleigh-Service</option>
    <option value='109' >US-CO-Denver-E. Evans Ave-Service</option>
    <option value='110' >US-NY-Roosevelt Field-Store</option>
    <option value='111' >China-Beijing</option>
    <option value='112' >US-TX-Austin-Service</option>
    <option value='113' >US-NY-Queens-Van Dam Street-Service</option>
    <option value='114' >US-IL-Chicago-Old Orchard-Store</option>
    <option value='131' >Canada-BC-Vancouver-Service</option>
    <option value='130' >Canada-ON-Mississauga-Tranmere Rd.-Service</option>
    <option value='115' >US-CA-Costa Mesa-Pullman-Service</option>
    <option value='126' >US-CA-San Diego-La Jolla Village Drive-Store</option>
    <option value='125' >US-CA-San Diego-Trade Place-Service</option>
    <option value='127' >US-CA-San Rafael-DuBois Street-Service</option>
    <option value='116' >US-CA-Santa Monica-3rd Street-Store</option>
    <option value='120' >US-FL-Miami Beach-Lincoln Rd-Store</option>
    <option value='118' >US-Garden City-Old Country Rd-Store</option>
    <option value='129' >US-IL-Skokie-Old Orchard Center-Store</option>
    <option value='121' >US-MA-Natick-Worcester St-Store</option>
    <option value='117' >US-MA-Watertown-Pleasant Street-Service</option>
    <option value='122' >US-NJ-Paramus-One Garden State Plaza-Store</option>
    <option value='128' >US-NJ-Short Hill-Store</option>
    <option value='124' >US-OR-Portland-S.W 72nd Ave-Service</option>
    <option value='123' >US-PA-Norristown-Boulevard of the Generals-Service</option>
    <option value='119' >US-VA-Tysons Corner-Chain Bridge-Store</option>
    <option value='132' >US-HI-Honolulu-Service</option>
    <option value='133' >US-MD-Rockville-Service</option>
    <option value='134' >US-OH-Columbus-Service</option>
    <option value='135' >US-CA-San Diego-Univ. Town Center-Store</option>
    <option value='136' >NA-US-CA-Los Angeles-Topanga-Store</option>
    <option value='137' >NA-US-CA-Orange County-Brea-Store</option>
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  • Oct 1, 2012
    Zzzz...
    Cleaned up and sorted:

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  • Oct 1, 2012
    Adm
    The Netherlands, Eindhoven has store and (separate) service
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  • Oct 1, 2012
    mcornwell
    US-CA-San Diego-Fashion Valley-Store
    US-CA-San Diego-La Jolla Village Drive-Store
    US-CA-San Diego-Univ. Town Center-Store

    Of these (3), only the last one is valid. Fashion Valley was a location originally thrown around, and La Jolla Village Drive = University Town Center
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  • Oct 8, 2012
    JRP3
  • Oct 8, 2012
    mitch672
  • Oct 8, 2012
    Bardlebee
    My question is, is this a state where you can't have a dealership for some reason or some sort? The reasoning escapes me, but he sum of the law is that you cannot sell in the state without some pre-existing licenses or a dealership and so you can only "suggest" to purchase online. Sounds like this is a state that doesn't have that law and they will simply go this route as they've done in Texas. It was funny walking into the Tesla store in Houston and seeing a sign that said something to the affect of "We can't sell you a car because your state is dumb. But we can always help you buy it online!".

    That really bothers me actually, who are these laws protecting? If someone wants to sell a new vehicle from a new company that has passed all the highway standards the other companies have to, why do states hate the income it brings? It's good for the economy I would think. Though, I am not a economist, I am in technology. :p

    EDIT: That is the EXACT sign the is in Houston I believe.
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  • Oct 8, 2012
    Cobos
    I believe the law is there to protect the excellent customer service you get from your state-based dealer. Oh wait.... actually I don't know why the law is like that :)

    Cobos
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  • Oct 8, 2012
    mitch672
    The theory is, they are protecting the consumer, in reality, they are protecting the existing ICE dealers meal ticket. They don't like the idea that a car mfr is avoiding the stealership sales model (and their associated middle man mark up), and selling directly to the public. I say "wake up", its 2012, and despite all of their grumblings and protests, Tesla will find a way to do this. They are opening their Service Center is Watertown by March 2013, that will take another argument away from the MA Dealers association (that they don't have local service).
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  • Oct 8, 2012
    v12 to 12v
    That is very interesting since the former governor of MA is claiming to be running for President on a pro-business and less regulation platform.
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  • Oct 8, 2012
    mulder1231
    So what if you buy online and you live in MA, do you pay sales tax?
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  • Oct 8, 2012
    Bardlebee
    Haven't reserved yet myself, but yes I believe Tesla does make you pay the sales tax of your state and it should go to your state.
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  • Oct 8, 2012
    vfx
    And most states are ok with this as long as the manufacture never had a dealrship in the first place.
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  • Oct 8, 2012
    Discoducky
    IMHO...This discussion might be better on the Tesla Stores thread
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  • Oct 8, 2012
    Doug_G
    ...and it has been moved.
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  • Oct 8, 2012
    vfx
    Anyone know what states this is a problem for Tesla?

    Those stores should have an asterisk.

    Texas
    Mass.
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  • Oct 8, 2012
    cinergi
    IIRC this was about Tesla's store model in MA (not having a store and service center in the same location), no?
    In any case, it's not looking like it'll be an issue. The service center should open in Watertown this month and their sales license will be approved and all will be well. Just takes time to get through the red tape.
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  • Oct 8, 2012
    ckessel
    One of the complaints apparently is that Tesla's "education" is all part of making the sale and thus they're actually selling illegally. I wonder if Tesla could just say it's all advertising. Other car manufacturers advertise so that's clearly legal and Tesla could simply claim it's stores are a form of advertisement.
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  • Oct 8, 2012
    dsm363
    Tesla could set up a section in the corner of the store out of the way where they do EV education and have information about the Leaf and Ford EV and say the entire store is general EV education.
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  • Oct 8, 2012
    ckessel
    I thought about that, but it'd be hard to say that convincingly when the employees are all Tesla employees.
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  • Oct 8, 2012
    vfx

    Like those insurance companies that give you the best price of all their competitors.
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  • Oct 8, 2012
    artsci
    �If a manufacturer sees that Tesla is successful with this kind of business model, who�s to say they don�t break out their own EV product lines and create a separate system that bypasses dealers?� said Bob O�Koniewski, executive vice president of the Massachusetts State Automobile Dealers Association. �It�s extremely problematic.�

    God forbid someone innovate in this industry. I can understand why dealers are threatened -- their operations are dinosaurs of the 20th century.
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  • Oct 8, 2012
    ckessel
    It's only problematic if the company has actual franchised dealers that could be threatened by a company's direct sales.

    As long as Tesla has no dealers, it's a non-issue. The dealer association guys just conveniently leave out that fact.
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  • Oct 9, 2012
    Robert.Boston
    I believe that there were two problems with the Natick store.

    One: the mall was not zoned to allow car sales; obviously a local issue driven by a concern that the typical car dealership isn't the glamorous business that Natick wants to attract to the mall.

    Two: Mass law requires that you must be able to service vehicles you sell, so until the Watertown service center opens up, Tesla couldn't meet that requirement. This requirement seems entirely reasonable to me as a consumer protection.
    �
  • Oct 9, 2012
    Larry Chanin
    Dealers call Tesla factory stores illegal

    Dealers call Tesla factory stores illegal

    Larry    ?
    �
  • Oct 9, 2012
    sublimaze1
    Either way, Texas law declares any motor motor vehicle that is sold in the state of Texas must be sold froma dealer with a Texas dealer license. Any other solution (e.g. a factory store) is illegal. In fact, promotion of sales by a non-dealer is also illegal. That is why the AMP tour did not get clearance to go through Texas until the very last minute and even then, the AMP employees were forbidden to discuss price, financing, or anything other than performance of the car from the standpoint of "the car is already purchased/reserved by the owner"
    �
  • Oct 9, 2012
    CapitalistOppressor
    Ultimately this is going to be a huge issue. The dealers want Tesla to sell them franchises and Tesla is either going to cave or it isn't.

    If Tesla doesn't plan on caving they are going to need to prepare a war chest for litigation and to fight attempts by the dealers to get new laws on the books to trip up Tesla. The dealers are a powerful interest and they are going to be able to regulate Tesla out of many markets if Tesla isn't prepared to counter them.

    Frankly, my thought is they need to find a test case (like Texas) ASAP and start litigating it at the Federal level. They need to kick this up to the appellate level as quickly as possible, because in three years there is a decent chance we'll see a blizzard of actual and proposed regulations aimed at shutting down or constraining the Tesla retail model.

    By then there will likely be actual consumer complaints and recalls that every automaker deals with and the dealers will spin these issues into a massive sense of (manufactured) crisis at the statehouse level. If Tesla moves quickly they can have controlling cases working their way through the upper levels of the Federal judiciary by then and have an opportunity to shut it all down.

    Right now Tesla is playing nice with regulators to try an smooth their way in but the dealers haven't even engaged yet. In a year that's going to change.
    �
  • Oct 9, 2012
    ckessel
    It baffles me the laws restricting manufacturer stores are even legal. Why is Apple allowed to sell it's products at Apple stores? Why can Nike have it's own Nike store (at least here in Portland)? Why is any manufacturer allowed to have a store, but not an auto manufacturer? How does this cover a website? Can Texas really stop someone from ordering a Tesla online and having it shipped to Texas?
    �
  • Oct 9, 2012
    Doug_G
    Not to get toooo political here, but some American politicians love to go on about personal freedoms, but here is strong evidence of needless government meddling in the affairs of others.

    Personally I think the government should let the free market work here.
    �
  • Oct 9, 2012
    mitch672
    In Massachusetts, it's the existing car dealers all complaining, no one else really cares.

    They are trying to protect their livelihood, and see Tesla's business model as a threat to it,
    Frankly the existing dealer networks are a throwback to the 20th century, and probably no longer required, they add little to no value for an EV, I believe Tesla should battle every one of these "dealer associations", if they don't, they'll be an ongoing thorn in their side.
    �
  • Oct 9, 2012
    Krugerrand
    That annoys me to no end. I don't need to be protected from myself, tyvm. If I buy a vehicle that can not be serviced in my 'general' area, and I didn't know that, then that's my bad for not doing the research.

    Government (of all levels) needs to get out of my business and let me sink or swim on my own level of intelligence. Protect me from liars, cheats, swindlers, murderers, robbers, etc... But don't protect me from my own stupidity because I deserve the end result.
    �
  • Oct 9, 2012
    jerry33
    And it's the politicians that spout the most about personal freedom that are the ones that support the most meddling.

    Well, the problem with a total free market is that the CEOs send all the good jobs to China, India, and Pakistan while they leave the Walmart and McDonalds jobs here. It's kind of cutting their own throat because eventually there is no one who can afford more than minimal food and clothing so they go out of business, but most CEOs never think about more than the next quarter.
    �
  • Oct 9, 2012
    Doug_G
    You can't outsource your local car dealer or Tesla Store to China.

    I think the trend towards outsourcing everything overseas may have reached a tipping point where some things are starting to come back here. A lot of companies have outsourced stuff overseas and then had to cope with big quality and management problems. Obviously some things aren't going to come back any time soon - when you can get them made in China for $20 and here for $200, it really doesn't make any sense to make them here. That's just economic reality.
    �
  • Oct 9, 2012
    vfx
    Tarrifs.
    �
  • Oct 9, 2012
    Doug_G
    And those things are good? They work both ways. My business is 95% export.
    �
  • Oct 9, 2012
    ckessel
    It's only a reality because we allow imports of items made in near prison conditions in countries that spend next to nothing on the basic infrastructure most 1st world nations think should exist.

    That's why tariffs exist, to address the kinds of situations like imports from a country that allows abusive companies to make profit literally off the blood and sweat of people with so little power and influence that they're trapped into their situation. We don't use tariffs nearly enough and the consumer is too lazy, greedy, or uninformed to make the free market level that field. Or sometimes there's no choice at this point after the offshoring that's been done. In the US you can't even choose to buy a US manufactured good in many cases, the factories are all off shored.

    If you want to go pure free market without concern for how things are made, it's condoning "by any means necessary" as a route to profit.
    �
  • Oct 9, 2012
    Doug_G
    You are making ill-informed assumptions. Why would you assume workers building these products are always in prison conditions? The fact is the cost of living there is far lower than here. But people's standard of living is rapidly improving in most areas.
    �
  • Oct 9, 2012
    vfx
    If a country like the US is trying to bring lost manufacturing back how can they do that?
    �
  • Oct 9, 2012
    ElSupreme
    The trick to having stuff manufactured in the USA is to have it cost to much to ship. I am an engineer that works in factories that produce and ship mostly water.

    EDIT: That or you implement an absurd amount of automation, and look at the long term costs. Automation beats people almost all the time.

    But this is about stores people, lets get back on topic!
    �
  • Oct 9, 2012
    v12 to 12v
    That is only a small part of the picture. There dangerous waste products from manufacturing are not managed properly. Often there is grey market materials used or inferior substitutes. Its all because $ trumps all. Its hard to find high quality goods anymore because the majority votes for cheap.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I am quite fond of Canadian goods by the way. They may cost more but the quality makes it a much greater value.... but one of my favorite companies moved their manufacturing overseas and quality deteriorated dramatically. Its not the same anymore. It saddened me. I wish that they would have raised prices instead
    �
  • Oct 9, 2012
    ElSupreme
    Could that be Arc'teryx? Their Chinese stuff is CRAP!

    And back on topic; I mean it.
    �
  • Oct 9, 2012
    v12 to 12v
    Ready to get back on topic. I think the dealership laws are outdated and they conflict with other consumer laws.

    - - - Updated - - -

    A different company. Back on topic!
    �
  • Oct 10, 2012
    Robert.Boston
    From the AutoNews article:
    If it were true that the independent, franchised dealer system adds value, then there wouldn't need to be a law mandating it. The fact that such laws exist suggest that it is not necessarily the best solution for all, but that it is the best for independent car dealers (who often have a lot of local political power).
    �
  • Oct 10, 2012
    VolkerP
    never task the frogs to drain the swamp.
    �
  • Oct 10, 2012
    Robert.Boston
    I couldn't resist, and posted this comment with the article:

    "Tesla may not yet recognize the value of the independent, franchised dealer system, but as its sales increase, NADA is confident it will re-examine its business model," [says] NADA Chair Bill Underriner.

    I'm glad the NADA is confident in the superiority of the dealer model. If he believes what he's saying, he should be perfectly willing to see Tesla try a different path, instead of trying to sue Tesla. Is NADA afraid of competition in the marketplace of ideas? Sounds that way to me.

    If you think hard about the dealership model, what it really brings is one things: capital (the dealer buys the store and carries inventory costs) . Does an independent dealer necessarily provide a better buying experience? Some do, some don't. Better after-sale service? Some do, some don't.

    When Tesla says, "no dealerships" they're not saying "no customer service." They're saying that the company will take direct responsibility for the entire sales and service process. The model doesn't steal jobs from anyone: there are still mechanics, people on the floor working with potential customers, people working on arranging financing and trade-ins, and so on. It does mean, though, that Tesla is ensuring that every store and service center meet its high standards for quality and service. It also provides a career path for employees; many of the people now managing a Tesla facility started off in a lower position at a different store.

    NADA may be right, that this can't work. But why can't we let the market decide, instead of the courts?
    �
  • Oct 10, 2012
    jordanthompson
    As a current owner of a Tesla and previous owner of Toyota, Mercedes, SAAB, Chevrolet, Dodge, etc, I can honestly say that the manufacturer does a MUCH better job dealing with their customers. In fact, Tesla is going to realign the industry not only in technology, but in service!
    �
  • Oct 10, 2012
    Robert.Boston
    Oh, I agree. I just didn't want to pick that fight in my reply; it's really beside the point: what's the rationale for denying customers a choice in the model by which they buy a car?

    If there are any lawyers here: how are these laws not an infringement of the Constitution's interstate commerce clause?
    �
  • Oct 10, 2012
    vfx
    I'm not sure if this is true or they are simply better by comparision to the dealers.
    �
  • Oct 10, 2012
    jordanthompson
    In my experience, it is. I had some issues with my Sienna (Toyota) that were covered by the manufacturer's extended warranty (not the dealer's warranty). It was slam-dunk no problem to get it done. I know for a fact had I had the dealer's warranty, it would have been and ordeal to get the same work done. The manufacturer has a lot more at stake than the dealer. Just look at the difference in their salesmen (people!) There are not many car dealers I would want to meet on the street or have over to dinner, but the Tesla guys (and gals!) are a different breed - they are in it for altruistic reasons as well as making a few bucks. How many normal car sales people have degrees from Stanford or MIT? I have met several from Tesla and none without a college education from a school I have actually heard of. Not the case with normal car dealers - you are lucky to find one with any college education (OK - maybe a little exaggeration for effect here.)
    �
  • Oct 10, 2012
    vfx
    I agree, but again the dealer poisons the distinction.

    The manufacture says do the work and the dealer makes money on labor.
    The dealer fights dealer warrenties because they loose money.

    I can think of dozens of (electronic) products that I have had difficulty with in dealing with the manufacture.
    �
  • Oct 10, 2012
    jordanthompson
    If you have problems with the manufacture, you don't think you'd have them with their dealers?
    �
  • Oct 10, 2012
    vfx
    That too. :)
    �
  • Oct 10, 2012
    mcornwell
  • Oct 10, 2012
    jordanthompson
    And I know that Toyota of Melbourne (I am sure that they are not the only dealer) pay their mechanics by the number of problems they find and can get the owner to pay for.
    �
  • Oct 11, 2012
    mnx
    There's nothing wrong with that in theory, as long as all the problems found are legitimate. I guess it comes down to if the owners of the dealership and the mechanics have any sort of integrity.
    �
  • Oct 11, 2012
    jordanthompson
    As as software engineer, this is how I relate to that concept:
    dilbert-minivan-small.png
    �
  • Oct 11, 2012
    Doug_G
    Years ago the local (name withheld) dealer kept pulling shenanigans. My mother had a car from that dealer, and insisted on going back to them while the car was still under warranty. But she asked me to handle it for her because she was sure they were messing with her. They were, though from what I could tell they were mainly ripping off the manufacturer by doing unnecessary repairs under warranty. Still, it was a huge hassle dealing with them.

    The last time I went there was for the final service before the warranty expired (I've never been happy to see a warranty expire before or since). I called them a month before the expiry date, just to be safe, but they still gave me an appointment slightly after the date. I was suspicious. Sure enough they tried to charge me for the repairs. I'm sure they were going to double-dip it. When I objected the guy literally said, "well, you can't blame me for trying, right?" My answer was, "I sure as hell can!" Never been through their doors again.

    A couple of years later that dealership almost lost their franchise because the manufacturer got so many complaints about their service, and they finally had to clean up their act. Still won't go near the place, though.
    �
  • Oct 12, 2012
    Kipernicus
    Dyer Consequences: Let's Make A Deal

    �
  • Oct 15, 2012
    Jaff
    (didn't see this posted yet)...The Toronto office has changed their phone message to advise that the new Toronto Store will be opening on Nov 15 / 12 at Yorkdale Mall, and, that the Tesla Service Centers in Vancouver & Montreal will be open by the end of 2012...sounds like a party coming! :smile:
    �
  • Oct 16, 2012
    mnx
    You beat me to it, I saw it on facebook last night. It said the grand opening was November 16th though...
    �
  • Oct 16, 2012
    v12 to 12v
    My friend and I had the interesting experience of being guests at the Venitian/Palazzo in Las Vegas during a car dealer and broker convention this year.
    One of the groups there had the acronym NABD. That cracked me up. We ended up changing hotels a day later.
    �
  • Oct 18, 2012
    mcornwell
    i received an email this morning saying the San Diego store will be opening on Thursday, October 25th. From 6:30pm - 8:30pm they will be having an "exclusive event" for reservation holders.
    �
  • Oct 18, 2012
    markb1
    Got that, too. The email also said the San Diego service center would open on October 24th.
    �
  • Oct 22, 2012
    v12 to 12v
  • Oct 23, 2012
    art
    we need a store in the mpls. area. mall of america ? 42,000,000 visitors a year.
    �
  • Oct 23, 2012
    bonnie
    I agree - a store at MOA would be a great spot.
    �
  • Oct 25, 2012
    meloccom
    Is it just me or are the recent actions by North American Dealers Association (NADA) and others a big threat to Tesla's business model and survival?
    lawsuits-filed-against-tesla-stores-in-ny-ma
    Given the political connections of NADA and the discussions about the anticompetitive state dealership laws on this forum -
    Discussion about anticompetitive state dealership laws
    I don't think the case for Tesla is cut and dried. It's likely that Tesla will lose one of the cases when there is the potential to be sued in 48 states.
    Possibly they need to consider some alternate strategies, at least for the US states where they lose their cases against NADA.
    My brilliant idea would be to create a mobile shop, similar to this Starbucks below but with George�s design ethic.
    Starbucks Opens Its First Mobile Shop | Branding Magazine
    So, for example if they are forced to close a �Gallerie� in Texas they can simply have a travelling shop �er � show that invites you to log onto Teslmotors.com when you get home after learning all the benefits of driving a Tesla EV.
    Does anyone think I am overreacting?
    �
  • Oct 25, 2012
    earthling
    Repost from Huge THANK YOU to existing owner thread
    Well something in these two comments triggered the "Evil Genius" part of my brain. What if Tesla has already factored in the costs of any potential lawsuits and really is just considering it as part of their marketing budget? I think that well done "Service Centers" could fill the need for any touchy-feely requests, although granted they won't be located in high foot traffic malls and such.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Holy Cow! That's more than 100,000 people EVERYDAY!! (Something must be broke in my math department)
    �
  • Oct 28, 2012
    kaisen
    Yes, as many people visit the MOA as Disney World. I live about three miles away.

    There have been other galleries in MOA, inlcuding a large Chrysler 'store' years ago. Ford has vehicles in the common entrances to Nickelodeon Universe theme park and has for years.

    BUT they cannot engage in sales activities. They may display them, discuss them, demonstrate features....they just cannot discuss price or terms.

    It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. I own a dealership, and have jumped through the hoops for twenty plus years. The laws need to change, not just for Tesla or manufacturers, but for dealers as well. It's hard to adapt to the preferences of consumers when the laws (including local zoning laws) simply don't allow it.
    �
  • Oct 28, 2012
    earthling
    First off, let me be the first to say welcome to the TeslaMotorsClub forums.

    Well then, that seems to me that vehicle manufacturers have already set a precedent as far as "galleries" go for showing off the company products. Thank you kaisen.

    Cheers =)
    �
  • Oct 28, 2012
    kaisen
    Yes, the Chrysler 'store' was a 15,000 square foot space, 12K for display and 3K for retail store of Chrysler branded items.

    When it was operating in the Mall of America it saw 4,000 visitors on slower days and peaked at 12,500 visitors per day on the busiest, averaging almost 40,000 visitors per week.....about the same as Disney's Epcot Center.

    Employees were trained to answer questions about the products, and could help them with everything except buying a car, but they referred them to their nearest dealership. Of course, Chrysler had thousands of dealers 15 years ago when the "Great Cars, Great Trucks" store was open at MOA.

    Tesla is forging new trails with their sales model, and I truly hope they can stand their ground.

    Not everyone sees the value in what traditional dealerships have become. Think about it. Five acres or more of prime location, with a 40,000 square foot sales/service facility with at least a couple hundred vehicles in stock. In a typical metro location that's $5+ million in real estate, and up to $40MM :eek:
    Even a hundred new cars represent another $2-4MM. The monthly fixed and semi-fixed costs of a franchised new-car dealership can run $300-500K per month. The pressure to 'move iron' is certainly on.

    However, fewer buyers care about the dealer's services, facility, conveniences, location, or selection. It's all about price, and they're researching that online. Can you see that dealer A has a gorgeous new facility with marble floors, free Wi-Fi, flatscreen TVs, and leather furniture when you search price online? Nope. Results sorted by price.

    Smart dealers would LOVE to simply rent a cheap space in the mall and take orders. But they can't do it either. I can't think of a state that would grant a dealer's license (new or used) to a mall location. They might allow a mall location as a satellite. Zoning in most governing municipalities have set-in-stone ideas of what a 'dealership' looks like. It would take change at many levels to allow dealerships to operate in the internet age.

    Hopefully Tesla can/will play a large role in changing those old paradigms.
    �
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