Jan 13, 2013
stopcrazypp True, but what I posted was their "official" explanation. Here's what their chief EV engineer has to say about CHAdeMO:
http://blogs.automotive.com/theres-a-standard-electric-car-charger-some-automakers-still-dont-want-it-105335.html
http://www.plugincars.com/new-toyota-rav4-ev-unlikely-support-dc-fast-charging-launch-107040.html�
Jan 13, 2013
stopcrazypp There's only five executive members (of which Toyota is one; the other 4 are TEPCO, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Subaru). Executive members are supposed to play a much bigger role in pushing and developing the standard.
There's lots of other normal members, but there are no non-Japanese car makes except for the ones who have worked closely with one of the executive members (like Renault with Nissan or PSA with Mitsubishi).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHAdeMO
http://www.chademo.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/memberlist.pdf
I'm expecting and I think the SAE in general is expecting the latter for now. GM tried to push for all future publicly funded charging stations to ONLY use the SAE standard, but there was obviously a huge backlash against that:
http://green.autoblog.com/2012/05/23/gm-strikes-out-against-chademo-dc-fast-charging/
Given the connector doesn't cost much compared to the station, I don't see the problem in stations with both connectors going forward until it's abundantly clear which one's the "winner" (that will be decided by car share instead, not charger share).
The interesting bit is Tesla can actually play a massive role in pushing J1772 DC or CHAdeMO if they pick only one for an adapter (rather than both). Right now the Leaf sells about 10k per year. The Model S will sell in similar numbers (although to be fair, not all will be DC-capable). It'll be enough to push either standard over the other.�
Jan 13, 2013
dpeilow and Volvo and BYD. There are several 'tier 2' EV makers and some commercial vehicle and motorcycle names there.
It seems like this has been updated since I last looked and they have lost VAG.�
Jan 13, 2013
stopcrazypp Yes, there are some more minor makes (BYD is a major make in China, but I think they are member only to see how the tech is developing, China has their own DC standard) I neglected to mention, but I don't think it changes the argument much. There's not enough non-Japanese automaker support to make it relevant outside of Japan once the Leaf loses it's top EV status.
VAG was experimenting with the plug (I think it was in the e-tron and maybe some other prototypes). I don't remember exactly where I read it, but I think VAG has confirmed they have abandoned it for CCS in the electric Golf they will soon release. That doesn't bode to well for CHAdeMO.�
Jan 13, 2013
dpeilow I posted the link with VAG in this thread about 2 hours ago...�
Jan 13, 2013
stopcrazypp I'm not referring to that. I read it somewhere else much earlier on (it's not recent news, probably around the time they announced the CCS mid-2012). But at any rate, that link is also confirmation.�
Jan 13, 2013
Norbert Yes, as I also said, the current direction seems to be to reduce the production costs.
The basic idea of the argument, without going a lot further into details, is this:
In Europe and the US, most carmakers have said they plan to use other connectors, all capable of charging rates roughly about 100 kW. Yet currently CHAdeMO has (and deserves) the first-mover advantage, and the resulting support. I don't think that support will be in vain, and I'm glad to see that Leaf owners are in the process of receiving (some of) the fast chargers they where hoping for, for quite some time. However, down the road, I think the development will go towards higher charging rates, not just through Tesla, but also in general, and eventually for Nissan itself. Yet Nissan does not appear to be eager to extend this first-mover advantage into higher charging rate networks. And I think it would be difficult even if they tried to.
Tesla employees have repeatedly questioned the future of CHAdeMO when discussing CHAdeMO support, so there is reason to believe that such thoughts influence Tesla's direction in this regard.�
Jan 13, 2013
100thMonkey bottom line to me, the concentration of CHAdeMO in this area is already greater than Tesla superchargers will likely ever be. It's here, it's now, we need an adapter.�
Jan 14, 2013
dpeilow Exactly. It's a case of jam today or jam tomorrow.�
Jan 14, 2013
Norbert I'd be a bit surprised if it is ready for production, even if perhaps most of the engineering were done.
A likely scenario to me seems to be that engineering, testing, and production preparation resources are still scarce, and will be allocated as needed for the japanese introduction of the Model S.
Meanwhile they might start installing SuperChargers in Washington so that the concentration is at least larger than zero. And in that context to estimate what exactly might be necessary to make customers happy. I don't necessarily expect decision makers at Tesla to accept the notion that without CHAdeMO this wouldn't be possible (or practical) in the first place, even if they decide to use it as a compromise. And even in that case they might prefer to start with SuperChargers (plus J1772 and Nema 14-50) as the official solution. Just saying what it looks like to me.�
Jan 14, 2013
TonyWilliams The CHAdeMO quick charge plug is also available for the 2013 Zero S and DS motorcycles.
Toyota didn't include the CHAdeMO port on the Rav4 because they already lose over $10k per car (they paid Tesla $100 million, or $38,000 per 2600 cars). Heck, they didn't even spend a penny to remove the exhaust hangers from the oil burning engines the Rav4 normally gets. They don't really advertise it. They didn't spend much to train dealerships to sell it, and it shows!!
Toyota is doing what it takes to equal 0.79% EV sales in three years in California. That's it. They don't want to sell EV's at all, and have only sold 192 total Rav4 EV's through Dec 31, 2012; that includes 55 sales to dealers. There is a total of $16,000 in incentives to move the car. It has virtually ZERO options; 3 colors and floor mats is it.
Currently, there are almost 2000 installed CHAdeMO stations throughout the world, with about 25% of them outside Japan. The USA already has about 150, and that will likely double in 2013. Of course, there are zero Frankenplug cars or chargers anywhere in the world.
The GM Spark, like the Rav4, Fiat 500 ED, et al, is purely a California compliance car. That means they'll sell about 2500 in the next three years (or at least hope to!!). The Nissan LEAF will outsell ALL the compliance cars sold in California, COMBINED. Nissan has already sold 50,000 worldwide, and lowered the price to $28,800 for it's base model LEAF.
The BMW i3 is going to be priced far too expensive to sell in any substantial quantities, and therefore won't have a significant impact on Frankenplug installations anytime soon. Unless BMW is going to pay for them, much like Tesla and now Nissan is doing, the future of Frankenplug installs looks bleak to me.
GM sure as heck isn't going to pay for Frankenplug installs, which is why they worked so hard to stall CHAdeMO. It's far cheaper to tear somebody else's thing down than build your own.
My prognosis is that there won't be enough Frankenplug cars in the USA anytime soon to matter.
The number of CHAdeMO DC Quick charger installed up to today is 1902.
-- (Japan 1381 Oversea 521) last update 2012.01.11
CHAdeMO Association�
Jan 14, 2013
dpeilow Exactly.�
Jan 14, 2013
TEG I saw one charging here in Belmont. And I think they would prefer if people called it "CCS" or "The Combo" not "Frankenplug".
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/volkswagen-group-of-america-and-eaton-unveil-new-combined-charging-system-quick-charger-2013-01-10
�
Jan 14, 2013
dpeilow But that's captive in the VW zoo, isn't it?�
Jan 14, 2013
Bipo IMHO, the CHAdeMO expansion policy in fact is something good for the Frankenplug, because both of them use the same power electronics, so it shouldn't be expensive to add another plug to an existing CHAdeMO. In fact, Nissan is expending at the moment huge amounts of dollars to deploy that QC grid, but in the near future all those poles would become a combo solution.
Anyway, I'm sure that the combo format will win this absurd "war of plugs".�
Jan 14, 2013
gregincal Except there's a reasonable chance that the Model S will outsell the Leaf going forward, and so it might change things if Tesla adopts the SAE standard with an adaptor (which apparently is much closer to the supercharger standard than CHAdeMO). As has been stated, even Nissan doesn't seem really committed to pushing CHAdeMO long term.�
Jan 14, 2013
TEG It is just outside the fence in the 'public' parking lot.
But, I have no idea what it would take to activate it for charging.
Without a "CCS" vehicle, I can't plug it in to see what happens.�
Jan 14, 2013
stopcrazypp I accept your points about the RAV4 EV, but that doesn't change the fact that pretty much Nissan and Mitsubishi are the lone ones pushing CHAdeMO forward in any amount of volume (and the iMIEV might be even more doomed after the Leaf price drop).
Well, I already said CHAdeMO is to stay in Japan, so the number there doesn't matter. The numbers in the US and Europe are still very small (not quite hundreds yet) and doesn't look like it will grow very fast. Certainly not fast enough that the Combo plug can't catch up.
Well, the Leaf has been selling about 10k per year in the US, with the price drop they might sell twice that. Tesla has enough orders for 20k for 2013. If Tesla doesn't build a CHAdeMO adapter (it's almost guaranteed they will build a J1772 DC one) all of the sudden the equation will change dramatically. If they build both types, then maybe not.
None of us know the price or the features, so it's far too early to tell. Tesla was able to sell 20k Model S at an average of ~$80k each. The i3 will definitely be much cheaper than that.
As for paying for the stations, even if those supporting the Combo plug can't force publicly funded stations to be exclusively J1772 DC, I think they have a very good chance to make them have dual plugs at minimum (supporting both CHAdeMO and SAE). SAE has been working with all the US based charger manufacturers to make sure it will happen (retrofits are also possible on some existing chargers).
http://green.autoblog.com/2012/05/15/evs-aerovironments-been-around-long-enough-to-not-pick-sides-i/
http://green.autoblog.com/2012/11/16/cant-we-all-just-get-along-gridbot-suggests-sae-chademo-fast-c/
And a large charging network, CarCharging, already backs the SAE standard. That is after buying 350Green. 350Green had about 100 CHAdeMO chargers planned for Chicago (26 installed in April 2012) and the Bay Area (1 installed in April 2012) and that might change to SAE (or dual connectors) after the purchase.
http://green.autoblog.com/2012/11/06/car-charging-group-tips-its-hat-to-sae-combo-as-debate-continues/
Yes, CHAdeMO has a first mover advantage, but SAE is just beginning to make their moves and I would not underestimate their influence in the US.�
Jan 15, 2013
jcstp nissan follows Tesla example
Nissan Promises Dealership-Based EV Quick Charging | PluginCars.com�
Jan 15, 2013
mlascano Tesla to Offer CHAdeMO Adaptor on Model S Sold in Japan; Is U.S. Next?
Tesla to Offer CHAdeMO Adaptor on Model S Sold in Japan; Is U.S. Next? | PluginCars.com
Hopefully TM does plan to make this available in the US, would be very useful particularly for areas with significant CHAdeMO presence (Oregon).
Anyone have any inside word in this?�
Jan 15, 2013
qwk It would only make sense to sell one in the US, after all of the r&d required to make the thing. This might be the last nail in the coffin for the frankenplug.�
Jan 15, 2013
widodh There is already a discussion about a CHAdeMO adapter for Model S: Likelihood of a CHAdeMO adapter for the Model S
In that thread the same discussion started, Autoblog green and Green car reports also wrote about this.�
Jan 15, 2013
FlasherZ If only they'd tell the truth about where that came from. "Originally published by the MONOist blog, picked up by TMC (kudos Doug for the find!), where Green Car Reports picked it up from..."
Page 32 of the aforementioned thread.�
Jan 15, 2013
qwk If this indeed does happen, it will be a huge blow to the frankenplug. Gm certainly isn't going to push it's dealers to install fast charging for a few compliance cars.�
Jan 15, 2013
Doug_G IF they actually follow through on that (and there was some hedging in the article) the it will be huge for Leaf owners.
So far the experience for Leaf owners has been spotty, by all reports, with some dealers turning away cars bought at other dealers, etc.�
Jan 15, 2013
VolkerP In some instances, LEAF owners were denied access to the CHAdeMO chargers during business hours, as the dealership was charging cars that were to be picked up by their owners later in the day. I wouldn't blame the dealer here, but the short range of the LEAF so it takes several charging sessions a day to run a useful distance.�
Jan 15, 2013
mlascano Thanks.
Mods: please merge if you feel appropriate.�
Jan 15, 2013
TEG Yeah, it somewhat defeats the purpose of a quick charger if you can't count on it being available (and working). It is most useful as part of a planned trip, not something just for opportunistic charging when you still have plenty of range.
A few CHAdeMOs here and there won't make the LEAF feel like a longer range vehicle until we get to some "critical mass" where you can count on them for longer trips.�
Jan 15, 2013
100thMonkey the only reason I can see to allow a second thread on this subject is to increase the visibility of this... in the northwest, it will be an embarrassment to have to hog an L2 charger all night when there is a CHAdeMO charger just down the street. There's already a photo of an S in Seattle on a local Leaf FB page, charging for 12 hours and counting on a public blink charger. the reality is that S owners will want to drive the S just like a gas car, at least as much as possible, taking it on weekend trips, hikes out to the Olympic Peninsula. I think one of the comments said it well: "If Tesla is thinking about customer convenience, then I think the right thing to do is says, "We support all of them. We think ours is the best (fastest, free, solar powered, no adaptors needed, no access cards needed...) but our customers are free to use any that they want to." "�
Jan 15, 2013
dpeilow The experience of dealer-based quick charging in the UK has been very poor. The first wave of chargers were unreliable and some dealers didn't follow through with the installs. Even to this day two years later.
On top of that, they not available outside of business hours for liability reasons.�
Jan 15, 2013
stopcrazypp Not really. Judging from quick chargers installed at dealers in the UK, they are practically worthless in real usage (see dpeilow's comment).
Public chargers will be much more important and you can bet SAE and GM will be doing extensive lobbying with regards to that (and they are very good at lobbying: GM was able to get the max plug-in tax credit to cut off exactly at the Volt's 16kWh capacity, they were able to get the plug-in parking law AB475 passed; I would not be surprised if they get a law/policy passed that all publicly funded quick chargers need to have at minimum a SAE J1772 DC connector).�
Jan 15, 2013
qwk Being worthless in real-world usage has very little do with public perception. CHadEMO is well on it's way of populating the US with quick chargers. If Tesla does release an adapter in the US that is sold for a realistic price, the frankenplug is dead. We all know how slow Tesla moves on releasing adapters, and I bet selling an adapter for chargers that don't even exist will not happen.
GM and the other pushers of the frankenplug had their chance to build and sell an EV, but they chose to produce hybrids and compliance vehicles instead. It's probably good they went that route because their EV's would look just like their plug...�
Jan 15, 2013
rcc Public perception and first-mover advantage means zilch if you sell only 10K cars a year.
Nissan will have to sprinkle Chademo chargers everywhere ... like mail boxes .. to overcome that and that's simply not going to happen. Nissan can't afford it and now that the SAE DC charging standard is out and is higher power, the publicly (taxpayer) funded US chargers will be SAE-compliant.�
Jan 15, 2013
qwk Charging standards that charge vaporware also mean nothing. If Tesla makes an adapter, by the end of 2013 there should be close to 40k EV's that will be able to use CHadEMO. At the production rate of these frankenplug compliance cars, it will take decades to match that number of vehicles. The writing is on the wall.�
Jan 15, 2013
stopcrazypp They aren't really vaporware. Compliance EVs are still EVs. As long as some exist, that will justify building at least some stations (there's one already at VW's facility). SAE have been able to get the commitment of pretty much all the US charger manufacturers to build at least dual connector stations. And don't count out BMW, they aren't merely working on compliance EVs.
As for Tesla's moves, it's pretty clear from engineer interviews that a J1772-DC adapter is much simpler to make and that they don't want to build a CHAdeMO adapter (which will be more complex and expensive). For that reason, I find it unlikely they will skip the J1772-DC adapter. If they build both, there will be 40k EVs with CHAdeMO and 20k EVs with J1772-DC, which doesn't change the equation very much.
The fact of the matter is the only two car companies backing CHAdeMO in the US are Nissan and Mitsubishi. Mitsubishi has insignificant sales of the iMIEV (which is probably doomed with the Leaf's price drop). Nissan's the main one and I find it unlikely they will hold the EV market share majority forever.
And keep in mind, unlike previous "format" wars, the connectors are only a minor part in a quick charger. Charger manufacturers can continue to offer both connectors indefinitely without affecting cost very much. That means the "war" can be carried on for many years while BEVs continue to mature.�
Jan 16, 2013
RDoc I agree with stopcrazypp. I also think that there are so few fast charging stations and cars that use them currently that CHAdeMO's first mover advantage is very slight in the US. Since the California state sponsored DC charging stations are all supposed to have SAE Combo plugs, I wouldn't be surprised to see Tesla replace the current J1772 adapter that comes with the car with an SAE Combo adapter. The cost difference for them is probably pretty small, it would be great for California residents, and there'd be no disadvantage for normal J1772 use. If that happens, and with the Spark also using the Combo plug, I'd think that would negatively affect CHAdeMO's widespread adoption. Nissan vs all the US manufacturers seems like a pretty uphill battle for them in the US.
I think it's very likely there will be an expensive CHAdeMO adapter available, but I also think it's sales will be very limited.�
Jan 16, 2013
qwk Actually, There is no battle because all of the other manufacturers aren't actually manufacturing any EV's. They always say this or that, but it's all empty and broken promises. Now I know I will get flack for this, but where in the US can I go to buy an EV with QC other than Nissan or Mitsu? That's right, nowhere.�
Jan 16, 2013
gregincal I hear there's this strange company called Tesla that sells a car with QC capability. A car that will almost certainly outsell the leaf this year and has a charge standard very compatible with J1772DC charging.�
Jan 16, 2013
rcc Give the other manufacturers some credit for business sense. The reason they're not building EV's is because no one wants to buy the EV's that they know how to build.
The Leaf is a great example: 10K cars a year in the US.
According to the Wall Street Journal, car sales in the US was ~7.5 million. When you add in minivans, crossover vehicles and SUV's, the number goes up to 14.5 million. Compared to either of those figures, Leaf sales are less than a drop in the bucket.
If any combination of companies can sell >50K SAE compliant cars a year in the US, at the end of that year there will be more SAE compliant EVs on the road than Chademo compliant cars. Even if you assume that Tesla will make an adapter for both standards, the future of Chademo in the US looks pretty dim.
At some point, the big companies will invent or license enough good EV tech so they can build a car that people will want to buy. And when that happens, SAE will drown Chademo.�
Jan 16, 2013
qwk bingo!�
Jan 16, 2013
dpeilow I don't know why we all think the CHAdeMO adapter need be so expensive. SAE uses PLC, CHAdeMO uses CAN. Can't be much more complex than the USB <> CAN adapters the hackers use and certainly easier than an OVMS.
And DC electricity is still DC electricity.�
Jan 16, 2013
qwk One can't even get an adapter to charge off of a simple AC 14-30(the standard socket for US dryers). How can one expect a DC adapter that the charging infastructure doesn't exist for, anytime soon?�
Jan 16, 2013
gregincal Well, you can't get a CHAdeMO one yet either. All I'm saying is that very soon Tesla will have a large percentage of the QC capable cars in the US (at some point perhaps even a majority, I'm not sure what percentage of the Leafs in the US are sold with CHAdeMO). We don't yet know which way they are going to go, but whichever way it is will make a big difference in the equation.�
Jan 16, 2013
stopcrazypp Don't forget the licensing fees TEPCO charges for the patents they hold on CHAdeMO. SAE doesn't charge any licensing fees for J1772.
That's my main point too. Whichever way Tesla goes will have a huge impact. The only way that it will swing against SAE is if they build ONLY a CHAdeMO adapter (absolutely no J1772 DC one) and I find that unlikely from comments by Tesla engineers.
The J1772 DC spec is finished now and there's plenty of prototypes around. Don't forget that Tesla has a seat in SAE. They have access to the entire development of J1772 DC and can provide feedback (they did the same with J1772 level 2, pushing for the max power to be 20kW). In contrast, they aren't even a member of CHAdeMO yet (membership currently required for access to the spec; this will change when CHAdeMO opens the standard in preparation for IEC approval, which is currently in progress). That means they haven't even looked at the CHAdeMO spec yet.�
Jan 16, 2013
EVNow We can't assume the licensing fee is burdensome.
But, who is building the SAE chargers ? Without chargers, there won't be a need for adapters. Even with federal grants, Ecotality has had such a tough time building the DCQC infrastructure. Ofcourse, there are only 2 known cars that will even have SAE plugs - Spark EV that will sell dozens per month (a compliance car), and BMW i3. But, i3 will also come in REx, probably reducing the need for quick chargers.
BTW, a very large % of Leafs sold have the QC port (something like 80%).�
Jan 17, 2013
stopcrazypp Well, if they want wide adoption they can't set it too high, but it also depends on if TEPCO wants people using adapters (rather than the port directly). TEPCO is free to set what they want until CHAdeMO gets adopted by a body that has a FRAND requirement (like IEC or SAE).
All the 200 eVgo DC stations in California, as part of NRG settlement, are required to support the SAE fast charging standard once it becomes available. Previously it's allowed to support CHAdeMO only (because SAE DC spec wasn't ready yet back then), stations after the SAE DC spec release are required to have both. This is the largest DC charging network in California and likely will be the largest in the entire US. And since EVgo doesn't have any DC stations yet in California, that's 200 SAE DC capable stations right there.
http://blog.longtailpipe.com/2012/11/the-evgo-electric-car-charging-station.html
http://www.torquenews.com/1075/gm-and-nissan-trade-punches-over-electric-car-fast-charging
In the first link, it also mentioned ABB, Eaton, and Schneider Electric (US charger manufacturers) have SAE support planned.
Eaton's DC stations have a SAE DC option in development:
http://www.eaton.com/Eaton/ProductsServices/Electrical/ProductsandServices/ElectricalDistribution/ElectricVehicleChargingSolutions/DCQuickCharger/index.htm
Schneider Electric DC stations are SAE DC upgradable:
http://www.torquenews.com/1075/schneider-electric-unveils-electric-car-dc-fast-charger-upgradeability-beyond-chademo
Aker Wade, the first US charger manufacturer to license and build CHAdeMO chargers, have announced they are also the first to have a dedicated SAE DC charger:
http://www.akerwade.com/news-release/aker-wade-power-technologiesr-first-us-dc-fast-charger-manufacturer-to-meet-new-ev-industry-enabling-sae-standards.html
Aerovironment (main charger partner for the Leaf) have said they were involved in the standard from the start and will not be picking sides:
http://green.autoblog.com/2012/05/15/evs-aerovironments-been-around-long-enough-to-not-pick-sides-i/
350Green is planning to install 25 DC stations in California (they have installed one CHAdeMO station so far here) and they were recently acquired by Car Charging group, which has publicly sided with SAE connector. It's not 100% sure, but it's likely they will support SAE in some way (likely dual connector also).
http://green.autoblog.com/2012/11/06/car-charging-group-tips-its-hat-to-sae-combo-as-debate-continues/
The Blink DC stations used by Ecotality are SAE DC swappable (so stations can have both):
http://blinkshare.blinknetwork.com/blink/topics/will_new_sae_chademo_car_plugs_work_with_existing_blink_chargers
So even though there may be few SAE DC only stations, there will be plenty of dual connector stations available!�
Jan 17, 2013
arg I think the mechanical aspects are more important than the manufacturing cost. Certainly the electronics manufacturing cost will be trivial in comparison to the connectors. It's not clear that it can be a hangs-off-the-charge-port adapter: quite likely it needs to be a cable with a Tesla plug and a box with a CHAdeMO socket.
So there's a moderate increase in cost due to the amount of material in the adapter, but I agree with you that it's not a big deal - if you could make an adapter that was desirable enough that lots of people would want to buy one, then you could probably make it cheap enough - maybe comparable to the UMC rather than the J1772 adapter.
But if it ends up being a big clunky thing that most people can't be bothered to carry around, then you only sell a few and can't justify tooling costs, and it ends up being hand-built out of off-the-shelf connectors so even bigger and clunkier and quite expensive to build, and then it's even less desirable so you sell even fewer and have to amortize the engineering cost over even fewer units...�
Jan 17, 2013
jkirkebo Are they actually required to have both plugs or just the SAE plug ?�
Jan 17, 2013
RandyS My reading of the settlement says that they start with Chademo, and then a couple of months after TWO vendors of SAE Combo chargers are available on the retail market, they either have to add SAE to the stations or provide a single Chademo/SAE charging station. So I think Chademo is required for the duration, even after SAE is installed.�
Jan 17, 2013
stopcrazypp I think both. GM tried to lobby California to change that to ONLY SAE (which will essentially doom CHAdeMO as a standard even in the short term), but that had huge backlash from Nissan and Leaf supporters. I don't think GM will be successful with that proposal.
Personally, I support having both, since it doesn't makes sense to leave the current large majority of DC capable EVs (the Leaf) hanging. But I think as long as most DC chargers support both, as soon as Nissan loses the EV majority share, CHAdeMO is doomed since they haven't been able to get other car manufacturers to sign up (even VW ditched them). It's possible Nissan holds on to the crown longer (kind of like Toyota with the Prius), but I don't expect that to continue forever (esp. as BEVs become "mainstream").�
Jan 17, 2013
ahimberg Do we have a thread for 'when are we getting an SAE DC adapter'? Would be nice to get the # of SAE DC capable cars growing as Tesla deliveries are made, rather than it sitting at near zero til some more cars launch with them.�
Jan 18, 2013
Ingineer First off, it's definitely *possible* to add CHAdeMO to a Model-S, even a 40kWh model. (You may well endanger your warranty though!)
Secondly, any type of CHAdeMO to Model-S adapter is going to be pricey, I'd say around $2k minimum. (Unless subsidized by someone) This is simply because of the complexity of the design, electrically and especially mechanically. I can't see any feasibility of a non-cabled adapter being constructed, due to the mechanical constraints many people have already mentioned. To me, the best way to implement this is simply to mount an additional CHAdeMO connector in the car, maybe in the frunk. (built-in would be required for 40kWh cars) It could be done "box" style with an external box that accepts the CHAdeMO connector and then plugs into the existing connector on the S. It will be very unwieldy, to be sure!
I've built many unusual adapters for our customers, and usually the only limit is "Now how much would you pay?" =)
For example, this one is for a Tesla employee, so he could charge his Active-E in the Tesla parking lot:
(A reverse of what is normally available)
It's also possible to build a Supercharger to CHAdeMO adapter, which would likely be even more costly. The CHAdeMO connectors, especially the handle, are very pricey. I honestly don't blame Tesla for eschewing the existing designs!
Whether Tesla ultimately offers a CHAdeMO adapter or not, if there is serious demand for one, I'll build it.
-Phil�
Jan 18, 2013
ElSupreme I am pretty sure non-supercharger capable cars will not be able use CHAdeMO, at least not without modifying the car. They lack wiring to bypass the onboard charges and put the DC directly to the pack. Sure you could invert the incoming DC to AC then pipe it through the charger, but you would be limited to 10kW (or 20kW) and it would hardly be worth doing.�
Jan 18, 2013
drees You don't know Phil all that well, do you? :wink: Phil would not hesitate to modify a 40 kWh Model S appropriately to handle DC charging if paid enough money. :smile:
He has successfully modified his LEAF to charge at 6.7kW by adding on an additional on-board charger. And have you seen his turbine powered range-extender / quick charger?�
Jan 18, 2013
lolachampcar Phil == Mad Sci.
I could use that turbine for a mosquito XET project.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5slM2JWYnBw
but then that would be off thread.�
Jan 18, 2013
EVNow Is anyone putting one up outside CA ? Looks like even in CA it is only being put up because of lobbying - will it be any more successful than the compliance cars ?�
Jan 18, 2013
Ingineer You obviously didn't bother to fully read my post. I noted that it would be required to be a built-in connector (possibly in the frunk) on the 40kWh models.
�
Jan 18, 2013
stopcrazypp California is by far the number one EV market (heck's it's the number one Tesla market and number one Leaf market at 60%) even if you don't count compliance cars. So having a strong SAE DC network there is enough to ensure a significant foothold in the large majority of the EV market (at least in the short term).
I'm sure there will be more lobbying in other states in preparation for SAE DC capable vehicles being offered there. For example, the i3 will likely be offered outside California. GM won't say what additional markets they will offer the Spark in, but they maintain it will not only be a compliance vehicle (although so far most people feel it's a compliance vehicle). If GM can push for a federal policy guaranteeing SAE DC in all federally funded DC chargers, then that will affect all states.�
Jan 19, 2013
gregincal Yeah, availability in California will definitely solve the chicken and egg problem, because Tesla would certainly produce an adaptor just for California alone where a huge amount of their sales are (people in other states are still thrilled to see a Model S in the wild, while I already see a few in the parking lot at work each day). And if Tesla has a cheap SAE DC adaptor available and the CHAdeMO adaptor is expensive or not available then that would create quite a bit of demand for the charging stations elsewhere.�
Jan 19, 2013
Chgd Up Chademo adapter will be available in Japan for the Model S so probably elsewhere as well.
Tesla Model S To Have CHAdeMO Quick-Charge Adaptor In Japan�
Jan 20, 2013
vfx So what US regulatory bodies have approved of the frankenchad plug? NEC? SAE? DOE?�
Jan 20, 2013
TEG I don't think the NEC or DOE would be involved in "approving".
It is part of the SAE J1772 standard now.
And different manufacturers seek UL approval for their own implementations, for instance:
UL Recognized DC Combo Fast Charge remaev�
Jan 20, 2013
Norbert What's "frankenchad"?Something involving CHAdeMO?
�
Jan 20, 2013
stopcrazypp Once again, this is a circular reference to this post by Doug:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/7107-Likelihood-of-a-CHAdeMO-adapter-for-the-Model-S/page33?p=249931&viewfull=1#post249931
So far that claim is still unconfirmed by any US source (it was only posted on a Japanese blog). Whatever happened to journalism? How difficult would it be for one of these US sources to reach out to Tesla for comment?�
Jan 20, 2013
TEG
�
Jan 21, 2013
lolachampcar VERY nice TEG!�
Jan 21, 2013
Ingineer LOL! =)�
Jan 28, 2013
doug So I managed to get some confirmation on this from Tesla. For now, a CHAdeMo adapter is only confirmed for Japan. No word yet on pricing.
Physically the adapter will be as we anticipated. A box with a CHAdeMO inlet and a cable that connects to the Model S. You'd stow this adapter cable in your trunk like you would the UMC.�
Jan 28, 2013
dpeilow ^ you mean it isn't the size of an ENIAC like some here were adamant it would need to be?�
Jan 28, 2013
efusco If it's in Japan, it's here too...either direct from Tesla or someone will be glad to resell it to us as import for a tidy profit.�
Jan 28, 2013
100thMonkey it would be super frustrating to see it released in Japan and not here as well!!!!!�
Jan 29, 2013
Ingineer If Tesla wanted to, they could easily restrict it to only operating on Japanese-spec cars (firmware). So even if you managed to get your hands on one from Japan, it may not work on your car here.
-Phil�
Jan 29, 2013
jhs_7645 Just received an email from Tesla:
So� good news there, cost, timing, etc� still an unknown, but it is nice to know they are working on one.
I'm trying to track the status of this in the FAQ:
4.1Does Tesla have a CHAdeMO adapter for the Model S?�
Jan 29, 2013
stopcrazypp That hints at US availability rather than just Japanese availability. If they are going to make one for Japan anyways, I don't see any reason to not sell it in the US also. If they can get around the adapter ban in Europe, they can also sell in Europe.
- - - Updated - - -
I don't think anyone expected it to be really huge in general (obviously it must be portable in the first place to be practical), just significantly larger than what the J1772 DC version would be (I expect that to be soda can sized like the standard J1772 adapter). It'll probably be similar to the UMC in size, at worse it'll be like an AVCON adapter (with the box designed to be on the ground and the cable plugged vertically into it). The cabling will also need to be fairly bulky to handle 50kW DC.�
Jan 29, 2013
jhs_7645 Not just a hint, my question was to [email�protected] and it was specific to the US.
The adapter on the ground doesn't seem to be a good solution for climates like the NW where it's raining all the time. I'm sure they'll come up with something, but that specifically does not seem to be a good 'mobile' solution.�
Jan 29, 2013
doug I was told it would "look something like a small shoebox with the Chademo input connector and then a cord going to the Model S." The focus is on Japan for now.�
Feb 5, 2013
LuckyLuke GeorgeB confirmed the CHAdeMO adapter in the vid from this post at around 2:00
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/8173-Future-Charging-for-Model-S-1-phase-or-3-phase-(Part-2)?p=268598&viewfull=1#post268598�
Feb 10, 2013
mal42north It would seem to me that it would be less expensive, and result in less weight to cart around if everyone who wants this capability, got together and purchased an adapter for each charger location. Or maybe persuade Tesla to rent the adapters by the day.�
Feb 10, 2013
EarlyAdopter Here's another vote for wanting a CHAdeMO adapter. Washington and Oregon recently put in nearly 50 high current DC CHAdeMO chargers along all the major roadways as part of the West Coast Electric Highway project. In a sense, we already have a complete Supercharger network installed up here that Model S owners can't use until Tesla puts out an adapter.�
Feb 10, 2013
stopcrazypp It's somewhat surprising Washington and Oregon is faster than California in the race for DC chargers, although now knowing the California requirement to support SAE at minimum, California may have been waiting for SAE DC to be finalized before going head on into DC chargers (rather than having to retrofit later).
It'll be interesting to see which adapter comes out first and also how the DC charger share looks when they come out.�
Feb 12, 2013
iridium +1
I was surprised how many are up here. With an adapter getting around the northwest would be no issue.�
Feb 12, 2013
Zextraterrestrial I am waiting 'patiently' but want to go to Hood/Bachelor soon.... please. ( and not a 20+ hour trip to get there)
these adapters should have been out before the car!�
Feb 12, 2013
SteveH Hey, I'm looking forward to the adaptors too, but let's not go crazy. Would you rather have the car without the adapter or the adapter without the car.�
Feb 12, 2013
Zextraterrestrial ya, the car rocks even without being able to go skiing this year! but it would be nice ;>
But, since there is a network in place, it would be nice to be able to use it ( when I got my car I had no Idea there was a CHAdeMO network in OR/WA already so no question about the car vs adapter )�
Feb 12, 2013
100thMonkey I agree, being in an area with a substantial network and being locked out of it with such a premium car is a real drag.
�
Feb 12, 2013
palmer_md I'm sure that is how Roadster owners feel about the Supercharger Network.�
Feb 12, 2013
SuperCoug Generally speaking, how quickly do we anticipate a Model S charging on a CHAdeMO charger like those in Washington and Oregon? I assume it's not nearly as quick as a Tesla Supercharger but does anybody had a feel for what kind of charge speed we can expect?�
Feb 12, 2013
ahimberg I think the installed CHAdeMO is ~50kW, where supercharger with a model S is up to ~90kW. So about half the rate of a supercharger, but still >5x faster than a typical J1772 (or 2.5x faster if you find a high amp J1772 AND you have twin chargers on your model s)�
Feb 13, 2013
Bipo Regardind Supercharger only charges above 50 kW for a while (about 40% of the average charging time), I assume with CHAdeMO it will take almost same time as Supercharger when SOC is over 60% and maybe one and a half times when under.
�
Feb 13, 2013
jomo25 Yes, Ecotality has installed a bunch of Chademo stations in the PHX area lately. an adapter to allow the MS to use that would do wonders for the charging options for MS owners here. I'd dare say having one would actually impact sales for the MS.
Update: just checked as of today there are 22 Chademo stations in the greater PHX metro area. And they are nicely spread out around town.�
Feb 13, 2013
TurboFroggy I think with the Chademo adapter on a 50kw station the charge times will be very close to the Supercharging times due to the steep decline in charge speed during the session. Here is a great study on fast charging between a 25KW charger and a 50kw charger: http://www.americas.fujielectric.com/sites/default/files/DC%20Quick%20Charging%20-%20FEA%20Comparison%20Study%20%20%2825kW%20vs%20%2050kW%29%207-3-12.pdf. 50kw charger is only 7-10 minutes faster charging a Leaf than a 25kw charger. My guess is that a Supercharger will only be 7-10 minutes faster than the adapter on a 50kw Chademo charger on the Model S.�
Feb 13, 2013
AMPd I just noticed all the CHAdeMO charging stations in the bay area, a place I travel to often on the weekends, so now I'm really hoping for an adapter.
Would make the trip from Sacramento to Golden Gate bridge to Santa Cruz a lot faster�
Feb 13, 2013
EarlyAdopter The DC chargers in WA and OR are either 60kw and 50kw, depending on when they were installed.
Here are the spec sheets:
http://evsolutions.avinc.com/uploads/products/3_AV_EV60-PS_061110_publlic_dc.pdf
http://evsolutions.avinc.com/uploads/products/AV_EV50-PS_0610_10124.pdf�
Feb 13, 2013
brianman "CHAdeMO ... option"
Does that mean they have J1772 or some other connector as well?�
Feb 13, 2013
EarlyAdopter They do also have J1772's on each station, but I think the "CHAdeMO option" indicates that the DC charging unit is modular and potentially upgradable to other DC connectors and charging protocols in the future.�
Feb 13, 2013
brianman I keep forgetting so I'll just ask...
Is the J1772 capable of the full 60 kW or limited to lower than that?�
Feb 13, 2013
EarlyAdopter J1772 is typically just 208v AC @ 30A = 6kw. I believe that's the max the connector has been UL certified to. So way less than a DC rapid charger.�
Feb 13, 2013
ChadS Yeah, the state (WA anyway, I'm not positive what OR did) put out an RFP for CHAdeMO stations, and then after Aerovironment won, begged them to put in J1772 stations as well - for free. Aerovironment, like most companies only makes 30A J1772 stations so 30A is all they got. Too bad, as 70A units all over WA and OR would have been awesome for the Roadster.�
Feb 13, 2013
brianman ... and for Model S.�
Feb 14, 2013
ChadS Very true. I left that out because Supercharger buildout OR a CHAdeMO adapter the Model S would be better for the S. But we don't have either of those here yet, so yeah 70A L2's on the West Coast Green Highway would be a very welcome addition. (I did try to get the state to have them put in before this all happened, but given that they were begging for any L2 and AV didn't have 70A units, it was a no-go).�
Feb 14, 2013
brianman Chad what's your best guess on if and when an owner or 3rd party will make an unofficial CHAdeMO adapter for the Model S (if Tesla doesn't offer one in the U.S./Canada)?�
Feb 15, 2013
Ingineer We'll be happy to make one, but the cost is going to be high, if nothing else, simply because the connectors are pricey!
In form, it would have to resemble this adapter:
We've built several of these to allow charging a J1772 vehicle (including the Model S) from a Roadster charger.
-Phil�
Feb 15, 2013
ChadS "If" depends a lot on "when", which I don't know much about. I don't have a good feel for how long it takes to design and build, but more importantly Tesla has not made their plans clear. I doubt Phil (or anybody else) wants to go to all of the work to design, build and market one - and then have Tesla offer theirs two weeks later.
But if Tesla is going to take three years to get the adapter out (entirely possible, it's taken them longer that to add a feature to the Roadster to text owners when charging stops) then there is clearly room for a third party. Like there was with the OVMS and RFMC for the Roadster. And even for HCSharp's "can" after Tesla offered their J1772 adapter for the Roadster.
Phil, if you can offer any thoughts on pricing and when units could be available, you may get useful feedback from people on this forum. I - and many others - bought an RFMC and an OVMS, and if you were to offer a CHAdeMO adapter I wouldn't plan on waiting for Tesla if they haven't given out any more information than they have already. But if it's $10k, hmm, maybe I'll just buy a book every time I take a road trip.�
Feb 15, 2013
doug My understanding from my communication with GeorgeB is that the CHAdeMO adapter is planned to be made available at launch in Japan (sometime this summer) and only in Japan. That seemed fairly clear. What's less clear is if you'll be able to get it or use it on this side of the Pacific.�
Feb 15, 2013
jerry33 Time to renew your Japanese connections.�
Feb 15, 2013
EchoDelta Yup There's a lof of them around here. Here's to hoping they will release some form of adapter. I have nothing against RV camps, but anything that gives additional options to get juice at better currents and with less hassle is welcome.
�
Feb 15, 2013
Zapped Great, if they sell more than one connector to our friendly Japanese TESLA owner , who might sell it to us.
But really, why wouldn't TESLA sell it in North America also ?�
Feb 16, 2013
brianman http://www.ebay.co.jp/?
- - - Updated - - -
I can't think of a single "happy customers" reason. I can think of many other reasons. : |�
Feb 16, 2013
jomo25 Again as suggested above, you may be able to procure an adapter Stateside, but firmware could restrict its use. But I agree, I can't think of ANY reason why they wouldn't sell and/or allow it to be used anywhere. It only makes the vehicle more appealing. As I mentioned, there are 0 superchargers in range of PHX. There are 22 already installed CHAdeMO stations around town.�
Feb 16, 2013
jcstp when where those chademo chargers installed?
When was the Leaf introduced?
When was the model S introduced?�
Feb 16, 2013
ChadS Hi jcstp. Perhaps I'm just not understanding your questions - I am happy to answer them if you really want to know (early 2011 to late 2012, Dec 2010, and June 2012). But it sounds (?) like you are suggesting we just need to be patient; the Model S came out after the Leaf, so Superchargers will come out after CHAdeMO chargers.
However (if that is the point you are making), I believe that point is moot for two reasons. One is that that doesn't matter now - there are CHAdeMO chargers now, and I have my car now, and I want to take trips now. The full Supercharger buildout is supposed to take a few years, and given that fast charging is available now, there's no reason for Tesla to not release an adapter they have to build anyway.
The second issue is that even in the future once Tesla has a chance to "catch up" - they NEVER plan to cover many places that CHAdeMO has already covered. A CHAdeMO adapter will ALWAYS be helpful for a great many trips. It is not just a temporary patch.�
Feb 16, 2013
jcstp That was indeed my point!
This does not mean I think the chademo-adapter will be unusefull!
But I think wanting everything now, immediately, is a lot!
I think once the decision made to put superchargers in a state it can go fast! (apparently 2 years for the full network)
I do not think at the end of this year you will be able to do a crosscountry-trip only using chademo?
I am sure lot of your disapointment will be solved step by step during this year!
I am just as curious as you to see the evolution!�
Feb 16, 2013
ChadS Your point is taken, but I don't want everything now. There are many, many things I am very patient about. I just want what Tesla said they'd deliver (in 2009 one of the very few claims they made was that this would be a fast-charging car, that requires charger access as well as the car; and in 2012 they promised the Model S charging would be "as omnivorous as possible"). Not only for myself, but for many people that won't buy an EV until they are sure it will work for all of their trips. When I ask people IRL why they don't buy a Tesla, they never say they are waiting for better sun visors, more cupholders, winter floor mats, adaptive cruise control, opportunity consoles or the new red paint. They only answers I hear are that they are waiting for a cheaper version, a different type of car, or for more fast charging to be available. The first two are incredibly expensive, long-term projects and so I'm not pushing on them, but more fast charging already IS available, we just need the adapter - which Tesla is building anyway. (The adapter is not trivial, but it is nowhere near the complexity of a new car model).
You are correct that I can't do a cross-country trip using CHAdeMO any time soon. But then, I don't want to take a cross-country trip (and I can only think of one person I know IRL that does). CHAdeMO already covers almost everywhere I'd want to go (and Superchargers already conveniently cover most of the rest).
It is unfortunate that there is more than one type of DC charger and that Tesla has to build an adapter. But any good long-range EV has to use the chargers that are in the ground, and CHAdeMO was around before Tesla so they knew they'd have to support it.
We obviously both agree that more charging is better, and sooner is better, and Tesla is doing what they can. I too look forward to more announcements.�
Feb 16, 2013
brianman @jcstp
Also note that, to my recollection, nobody has said they aren't willing to pay (something reasonable) for the adapter. I have less issue with people asking for something (of Tesla or whoever) when they're willing to pay for it, than when people just demand everything they fancy to be included without cost.
Two reasons for this difference. First is that willingness to pay indicates strength of desire and recognition that things costs; it's a philosophical thing. Second is that payment can solve timeline and resource constraint problems because they can hire or outsource so that the work gets done more quickly; it's a logistics thing.�
Feb 16, 2013
jcstp I hope it comes soon.
If they will introduce it when they sell their car to japan, the adapter will probably appear this year.
Or is Japan only set to get it's cars next year?
Anyhow if tesla has an adapter it would indeed be smart to sell it worldwide! It would make more financial sence! ;-)�
Feb 16, 2013
Bipo I think the answer to this problem is not an adaptor to CHAdeMO but the compulsory installation of a Combo plug in every DC charger of USA. As long as the power electronics are the same, the cost increase is marginal (maybe 5 to 10%).
Federal goverment should take a decission about this to finish with this absurd plug wars.�
Feb 16, 2013
brianman If they don't, I'll probably buy one on Ebay. Sucks, but so goes life.�
Mar 6, 2013
Robert.Boston Tweets from Norway (@gronnbilnorge): (translated from Norwegian):
Also:
�
Mar 6, 2013
Johan I'm at the US ambassadors villa, Elon is speaking, CONFIRMS Chademo adapter for EU.�
Mar 6, 2013
Johan I'm at the US ambassadors villa, Elon is speaking, CONFIRMS Chademo adapter for EU.�
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