Dec 24, 2011
widodh We know almost for certain that the Model S will not support CHAdeMO if Tesla does not provide an adapter. There have been some rumors about it, but nothing concrete. At this point we have to assume that CHAdeMO charging will not be supported.
In this thread: Ads which illustrate why I am so pissed about Tesla's marketing of the 160 it came up again and I felt it deserves a dedicated thread.
With the Nissan Leaf quick/fast chargers started being installed on various locations. In Europe (NL, BE, DE, CH & UK) a lot of those chargers are being installed. Nissan recently announced that they will donate 400 50kW CHAdeMO chargers.
In the Netherlands BP also announced that they are going to install CHAdeMO chargers along motor ways.
This is mainland Europe only, but in the UK Nissan is also installing various CHAdeMO chargers.
I also guess the same is happening in the USA (couldn't find a map of it..).
No, these chargers won't be able to charge a Model S with a 85kWh battery within 45 min, but it's a LOT quicker than a 40A charge. (Which isn't possible in Europe).
A the CHAdeMO chargers are being rolled out, one would assume Tesla would support CHAdeMO, but currently they are not.
I'd like to discuss the likelihood of an adapter coming out for the Model S.
The current guess is that the Model S will support the new SAE J1772 DC protocol which has a different signaling then CHAdeMO does.
How hard will it be to produce such an adapter and would it be possible that a 3rd party company would bring out such an adapter? (Or even the 'community'?)�
Dec 24, 2011
AnOutsider I was thinking the same thing. If it's fairly simple, then I don't see why Tesla couldn't at least offer them for purchase to UK customers. Even if it isn't free/standard, I'd imagine it would still be worthwhile to those abroad who really need it in their areas.
As for aftermarket/the community, I imagine after people get their hands on the officially-offered adapters, they may be able to reverse-engineer them and come up with something. Of course this may end up affecting your warranty.�
Dec 24, 2011
Kevin Sharpe ~65 during Q1 2012 bringing the total ~100.�
Dec 24, 2011
widodh Any particular reason why you point out UK customers?
It only has to do with signaling difference between CHAdeMO and SAE J1172 DC (if!), but could something like that be solved? Such an adapter needs active processing of both signals and will need power to do so. Where would the adapter get it's power from?
500V DC is 500V DC, no converting needed on that point.
You might also run into different problems. Could it be that the adapter would become to heavy for the socket? The CHAdeMO cables are also quite thick and heavy. They might put to much stress on the charge port.
Lying the adapter on the ground will be forbidden I guess due to safety reasons.�
Dec 24, 2011
Lloyd I don't see it being more heavy than a 70 amp J1772 cable which weighs about 20 lbs. We know that this adapter is available!�
Dec 24, 2011
AnOutsider No mal-intent. Only because it seems most calls for it come from European customers. I should have said European not UK.�
Dec 26, 2011
widodh Ah, ok.
I've been looking for the CHAdeMO wiring diagram. Does anyone know if a CHAdeMO station delivers something like 12V where a adapter could run on? It will need power since it needs to translate the signaling.�
Dec 26, 2011
dpeilow CHAdeMO Technology
Maybe include some rechargable batteries that are replenished when the 12V lines are active?�
Dec 26, 2011
jkirkebo Yeah, this is the one thing keeping me from reserving one. Granted, there are a few other things I'm not too fond about (like the current interior) but they are minor in comparison to missing the charging option that will make long-distance travel possible. Especially since I'll be buying the car mostly for long distance driving. We will keep the Leaf for around-town errands and such, which the Model S is way too big for.
Also I'd guess the 50kW CHAdeMO would be gentler on the battery than a 90kW Tesla "Supercharger". I have no illusions about 90kW units popping up all around Norway any time soon but CHAdeMO chargers is arriving by the dozen.
Without a CHAdeMO adapter our Leaf will be a more capable long-distance car than the Model S
�
Dec 26, 2011
dhrivnak Here in TN Cracker Barrel has begun a roll out of CHADeMO and J1772 connectors. The rumor is all reasturaunts will have J1772 and every other store the fast DC chargers. Check on plugshare for the latest details. I really think Tesla would be foolish not to support this standard.�
Dec 27, 2011
scott451 Anybody know where I can get a copy of the standard?�
Dec 27, 2011
Lloyd Likely from the Chademo association. HERE�
Dec 27, 2011
widodh You seem to have some knowledge of this.
Do you think it will be possible to produce such an adapter? I still think the adapter needs a power source which it will not have since neither the car nor the CHAdeMO charger provide this. Is that correct?�
Dec 27, 2011
Lloyd View attachment takafumi-anegawa-tepco-11-20.1290790915[1] 8.pdf
View attachment takafumi-anegawa-tepco-11-20.1290790915[1] 7.pdf
These Documents should help also for flow and Pins.�
Dec 27, 2011
richkae I am hopeful that there will be Tesla superchargers along all the long distance routes I drive, but I doubt it will happen.
I plan to get an 85kW car, and I want a CHAdeMO adapter even if supercharger support significantly exceeds my expectations.
I sent mail to Tesla asking about a CHAdeMO adapter and this was the response I got:
We have not committed to offering a CHAdeMO adapter at this time, although we certainly understand that many customers are interested in such a product. There are some very significant differences between CHAdeMO and the Model S connector, and unfortunately I don�t have any information at this stage about the feasibility of creating such an adapter, nor any capability or pricing information. Thank you though for asking, as this helps us gauge what products to offer in the future.
Tesla might read this forum and get feedback from it, but I think it is imperative that everyone with a reservation email Tesla and ask about it.
Tell everyone you know who has a reservation to send mail and ask.
My suggestions for points:
1. I would definitely buy the adapter at a reasonable price.
2. I would most likely buy the adapter at a reasonable price.
3. I will buy the car anyway if no adapter is available, but expect disappointment and frustration without it.
4. I would not buy the car without the adapter.
Optional:
5. I plan to buy a 40kW Model S and need the CHAdeMO adapter to support at least X kW charge rate.�
Dec 29, 2011
garry753 evgonetwork (evgonetwork.com) has committed pretty heavily to CHAdeMO chargers in the Houston and Dallas/Fort Worth areas of Texas. I would like to second the assertion that it would be foolish of Tesla not to support this standard on Model S, and hopefully for the Roadster as well. Because of the already excellent network of chargers, it would open up travel with the Roadster and S to these cities from Austin and San Antonio with the minimum of recharge time.�
Jan 2, 2012
W.Petefish I have seen one of those stations around. It doesn't get used very much at all, partially because evgonetwork is a subscription service where even if you don't use it they still bill you per month. (not to mention that the EVSE that they will rent to you is only rated at 20-30A)
I think I remember Eberhard asking for a CHAdeMO a while back. (I may be mistaken though)�
Jan 2, 2012
garry753 I really question evgonetwork's business model. The subscriptions are fairly steep, and are geared toward users in the metropolitan areas that they're serving. I spoke to them last week, and they are allegedly working on a plan for out of metro users who would want to pay as they go.
I'm hoping this comes to fruition, as even the J1772's are placed at key locations in both Dallas and Houston to make Austin travel to these cities less of a range anxiety-inducing nightmare.�
Jan 3, 2012
CroDriver It's not just a connector... The car's ECUs and BMS has to communicate with the charger. The on-board charger doesn't charge the car if you plug it in to a CHADEMO station, the station does the whole job, so the BMS must communicate with it. An simple adapter won't do the job.�
Jan 3, 2012
Eberhard The best solution would be additional inside sockets like CHAdeMO or Mennekes Type 2 accessible from the front or back trunk.�
Aug 6, 2012
stopcrazypp I take it you are referring to this post?
In general though, your interpretation is incorrect. The car does have to send battery parameters to the CHAdeMO station and the station does send data signals to the car, but it is the car that controls the charging cycle (by sending signals with the charging current specified, it also sends the 0 current signal to signify to stop charging).
http://www.chademo.com/05_protocol.html
I think the engineer was more concerned about security (you can do a lot more with a CAN bus than just charging) and that you have to send detailed battery information to the charger (which you presumably don't have to with the J1772-DC). Plus, like TEG says, it's a lot more complicated than J1772 since you need full bi-directional support (whereas J1772 is quite "dumb"/simple and just uses a pilot signal, J1772-DC will add PLC).�
Aug 6, 2012
drees The LEAF uses a separate CAN bus for quick charging. Presumably all other cars are similar. Not sure what "detailed" battery information you are referring to. All that seems to be required is voltage, current, and SOC. Voltage and current must be monitored regardless of the protocol. The LEAF doesn't even send an accurate SOC to the QC station.�
Aug 6, 2012
jkirkebo The car can stop charging at any moment. If sending a "stop" message to the CHAdeMO charger does not work, it can just open the battery contactors and thus isolating the charger from the battery.
And Tesla wouldn't necessarily need the CHAdeMO specs, they could farm out the production of an adapter to a company that's already a CHAdeMO member. They'd have to supply their own charging specs of course.�
Aug 6, 2012
TEG Which brings up a point - perhaps CHAdeMO is more of a standard than Tesla Supercharging.
Maybe Tesla doesn't want to share details of how SuperCharging works, at a technical level?
Reminder - this can work both ways... What about a LEAF that wants to charge at a Tesla Supercharging station?�
Aug 6, 2012
stopcrazypp That would be the necessary implementation to address security concerns. But I think it is most likely that concern that the engineer was referring to.
I'm just referring to the second compatibility check step of the CHAdeMO protocol (which seems to involve more than just simply transmitting the target voltage and current required for charging; it seems like the stations needs a pretty good view of the specs of the battery pack before it even allows charging to start):
http://www.chademo.com/05_protocol.html�
Aug 6, 2012
smorgasbord Good one!
Ain't gonna happen unless you find:
1) A source for a Model S connector inlet (what's on the car).
2) Someone who's knowledgable and willing to spend the time to reverse engineer whatever protocols Model S is using (probably the easiest part of this). And then build a Chademo emulator (patents?).
3) Someone with a Model S who's willing to let his car be analyzed to enable the above reverse engineering.
I think #1 kills the possibility, at least until someone wrecks their Model S so badly that after they cart the bodies away, you "pick a part" off of the car before the tow truck arrives. Kind of like a James Dean Porsche thing:
Sorry for the morbid visual.�
Aug 6, 2012
drees Yes, but IMO - to QC safely, you'd want to know all those parameters before you start delivering any power.�
Aug 6, 2012
Doug_G If I recall correctly, CHAdeMO expects to talk to the car's CAN bus (through an interface of course). But there's no reason you have to exposure the real CAN bus. Just provide an interface that simulates the bus and handles only the messages needed by the charge station.�
Aug 6, 2012
ggr I had the impression that the Tesla Supercharger network is going to be private, for Teslas only, as a benefit to buying them. With bi-directional signalling it would be easy enough to authenticate the vehicle, so even an adapter wouldn't help.�
Aug 6, 2012
TEG So, does that mean that the CHAdeMO network is private for LEAF/iMiEV only and Teslas shouldn't try to charge there?
(Contemplating concepts of reciprocal sharing...)�
Aug 6, 2012
smorgasbord 350Green runs at least one Chademo station in the Stanford mall. A card is $21 but includes three 30 minute quick charges (Electric Cars, Chargers and Infrastructure Card).
I'm guessing Tesla isn't going to open up their network to non-Teslas.�
Aug 6, 2012
Kipernicus A benefit only for 60kWh and up Teslas, but I've already ranted about that.�
Aug 7, 2012
100thMonkey Before going through with making our reservation and in part as a condition of it, I was referred to two Tesla product specialist managers in WA that were at a CA Tesla training the week before. Both of them assured me with certainty that a CHAdeMO adapter had been engineered and was now in the refinement stage, with efforts to make it more "ergonomic".
Yes, anyone saying CHAdeMO isn't happening, has their head in the sand. the rate of CHAdeMO installation is really picking up out west, despite the pathetic heel dragging going on in CA. There are many more than 14 already, with more being unveiled on a regular basis.Yet another QC opened up in Castle Rock WA, completing that stretch of the WCGH. Oregon in particular has really been on the ball, so much so that they are on their second major grant extension. There is a stretch of I-5 in Oregon with CHAdeMO stations every 25 miles. The second wave of expansion in Oregon has begun, with something like 35 more actively being installed. Oregon has decided to become an EV vacation destination, committing to offer charging out along the coast from I-5 to major vacation favorites. QC's are being placed close enough together to offer redundancy, to prevent the overnight strandings we've seen in WA when QC's malfunction. Portland has many QC's, even an "electric avenue" with 2 QC's and several L2's. Tesla has, IMHO, missed a crucial opportunity by going exclusive with their network. Tesla's exclusivity is a double whammy to the fledgling EV charging infrastructure. Tesla cars will have to use adapters to use the public chargers, defeating the purpose of having a sleek plug and the infrastructure they are adding will do nothing to help spread accessibility for EV's in general, since no one else will be able to use them. CHAdeMO is the closest thing we have to a standard, it's what is being proliferated... at the very least, Tesla needs to follow through with a CHAdeMO adapter so at least the S can access the CHAdeMO network and be fully unleashed. Ideally, Tesla stations would also offer some level of reverse compatibility to other EV's, they could simply give Tesla owners priority, maybe even charge non-Tesla owners a premium as well.�
Sep 28, 2012
KenEE 100thMonkey, Can you recheck your sources on the CHAdeMO adapter for the S? Your post seems to be the only positive info on this topic.
Anyone else have positive info? (as in Tesla IS going to release an adapter)
I just checked on plugshare.com and there are 144 CHAdeMO stations listed with 39 in my home state of Texas.
I really don't want to wait years for a Tesla SC. And even if they build all they promise, I don't want to miss out on all the CHAdeMO chargers available.�
Sep 28, 2012
dsm363 I hope a CHAdeMO adapter comes out for the people that want it. If I understand this correctly, most or all of the CHAdeMO installations were built with some DOE funding directly. Other than the DOE loan funding Tesla and therefore indirectly funding the Supercharger network, I don't think Tesla is getting additional funding for their Supercharger network so they are not obligated to charge other cars. Unless other cars can charge in the same 30 min, they would be tying up the spot for longer than a Tesla would. If Tesla did directly receive DOE funding for the network then they should look to supporting other cars at some point but still give priority to their own customers.�
Sep 28, 2012
RDoc FWIW, I was just at the Tesla store opening in Natick, MA and one of the sales people there stated that Elon recently said Tesla was working on a CHAdeMO adapter.
I believe that the public charging stations will start using the SAE connector in addition to CHAdeMO, hopefully with higher power capacity. In one of the discussions, a Tesla engineer said the SAE to Tesla adapter would be mechanical, like the J1772 adapter. The CHAdeMO adapter would have to have some intelligence to translate between the CHAdeMO and Tesla control signalling protocols.�
Sep 29, 2012
jasdip Tesla confirmed to me yesterday via email:
---
Model S will have adaptors for other fast-charging stations, including CHAdeMO. We don't have further details at this time.
Best regards,
Ownership Experience Team
[email�protected]
1-877-77-TESLA (877-778-3752)�
Sep 30, 2012
KenEE This is GREAT news! Thanks for sharing. I hope it's available soon.�
Sep 30, 2012
doug Define soon.�
Sep 30, 2012
ahimberg good news but we don't know if SC hardware is a needed for the adapter, or if even the 40 can use it, how much it will cost,
that info could make a difference on the 60s that just got asked to decide on SC or not within 10 days.�
Sep 30, 2012
efusco Outstanding !
Evan, Via Tapatalk�
Sep 30, 2012
ChadS You should ask Tesla before spending the money; but I am almost positive that if your car can't Supercharge, then it can't use the CHAdeMO adapter either. By far the simplest approach is for the CHAdeMO adapter to go through the DC connection used by Superchargers, rather than the AC connection that uses the car's single or twin chargers.
Of course, before spending the money you should also inquire about when the adapter may be available. Some simple features (like text-on-charge-stop) that Tesla promised Roadster owners 2.5 years ago are still not here, so I have some concerns about how long a complicated CHAdeMO adapter will take. I would think the CHAdeMO adapter is important enough (it is likely affecting sales NOW) that they would move on it, but you never know.�
Sep 30, 2012
ahimberg it'll be interesting to see the cost of the SAE DC & CHAdeMO adapters, 500$ each? (maybe SAE will be cheaper?) Maybe another reason why SC is 2k because these adapters will be included at some point.
Would be great for tesla to come out on some of this, they're losing time on being the first car in production to support SAE DC�
Sep 30, 2012
Lloyd I would assume that DC-DC charging will equal supercharging. If you are not enabled, then the adapter would not work for you.�
Sep 30, 2012
Zzzz... Quite opposite, we know. Tesla Motors would have to do it for the sake of Japanese market, but that will happen by the middle of 2013 with introduction of right hand drive model for UK & Asia... And European market would also benefit from such adapter substantially.�
Sep 30, 2012
vfx 48 ChadeMos in the US
If Tesla hit 100 SC in a year they could surpass them.�
Sep 30, 2012
ahimberg is that right? there are 25 aerovironment and 8 blink DC CHAdeMO locations just in Washington & Oregeon states�
Sep 30, 2012
CapitalistOppressor Just finished listening to the Podcast you were on. Would have been great to have known this during your discussion there�
Oct 1, 2012
vfx Which is apparently where most of them are.
Please don't quote me on this number.�
Oct 1, 2012
jkirkebo I'd be jumping with joy if the complicated CHAdeMO adapter ends up costing $500. Unfortunately I do not think it is very likely. My guess would be somewhere around $1000-$1500. And you would definately need the SC hardware, since the contactors to bypass the internal chargers surely won't we there otherwise.�
Oct 1, 2012
efusco Yea, tell me about it. I sent Chelsea a message.�
Oct 1, 2012
KenEE I doubt this as there are almost 40 evgo CHAdeMO chargers in Texas.�
Oct 1, 2012
KenEE 1-6 months�
Oct 1, 2012
widodh That would mean that European deliveries could have one at delivery!
Since we will probably have to wait a long time for the first SC.
Europe has a good number of CHAdEMO chargers, so that is nice.�
Oct 1, 2012
W.Petefish Good Job Tesla. :smile:�
Oct 1, 2012
KenEE Whoa! I have no idea when the CHAdeMO adapter might be ready. I was just giving *my* definition of "soon" at Doug's request.�
Oct 1, 2012
TEG What is your source for the # 48 ?
�
Oct 1, 2012
doug In that case an "I have no idea" would be better.�
Oct 1, 2012
RDoc I suspect you're correct about the >$1000 price.
The physical housing, connectors, etc. shouldn't cost much more than the J1772, which we also don't know the price of. The harder part is going from the CHAdeMO protocol running on CAN bus, to Tesla protocol which I understand to be PLC. That means there's going to be two hardware interfaces, some kind of simple processor, and a power supply, all housed in the connector. The interfaces are industry standard parts and quite inexpensive, as is the processor and power supply, so there's probably around $100 in parts, maybe less.
Low volume production though might make this pretty expensive since the development and tooling costs have to be amortized. If one assumes that the SAE connector will predominate in a few years, the lifetime of the design might be pretty short. It seems pretty likely that Tesla will have an SAE adapter solution within a few years.
It might be good if there were a CHAdeMO to SAE device, similar to the above, but that would be an add on to existing public CHAdeMO stations. Very low production volumes, but much easier packaging since it would be built into the charging station, likely with it's own cable and plug.�
Oct 1, 2012
W.Petefish IF Tesla's configuration is signal compatible w/ J1772 DC it would be concevable to make a CHAdeMO > Tesla > J1772 DC.�
Oct 1, 2012
efusco FrankenPlug
I suppose it's possible, but it seems like the more links in the chain the more complex & likely to fail it will be.
Evan, Via Tapatalk�
Oct 1, 2012
vfx
A terrible one apparently.
Though I have found that the more "exotic" stations are behind locked gates and not available for public use or only within normal working hours.
- - - Updated - - -
Yeah if Tesla's system is adapter-compatible with every power source out there, the "paddle-Avcon wars" comparison falls apart and the Tesla 2.0 is now the most plug desirable EV on the market.�
Oct 1, 2012
Robert.Boston FWIW, Plugshare shows 138 public CHAdeMO stations. They're very concentrated, though: 16 each in Houston and Dallas, 15 in Tennessee (thanks to Cracker Barrel), and 47 in the Pac NW. There are none east of Tennessee in the U.S., however, nor are there any between major cities except in TN and PNW. So, the importance of the CHAdeMO converter depends very much on your location and usage needs.�
Oct 1, 2012
ToddRLockwood Am I correct in thinking that a 50kW CHAdeMO charger would require about twice the charge time as a Supercharger to achieve the same range?�
Oct 1, 2012
dpeilow Not quite, because the SC will ramp down in the top 50% of the battery's charge, so it may be that with CHAdeMO you require 1.5x the time for a full charge (i.e. double the time for the first 50% of charging but then about the same for the last). Obviously you'd have to confirm exact timings, but that's the principle.�
Oct 1, 2012
vfx Which is where Chelsea says Tesla got it right. Few units spread far apart is much more useful for long distance travel.�
Oct 1, 2012
RDoc An interesting comment IMHO. Since the Leaf and Mitsubishi are such short range, long distance traveling is not really practical at all. Stopping every hour or so isn't reasonable. Local recharging though is a huge win.
For Tesla, it's the reverse. There very little need for local charging, but with the Supercharging network, it makes long distance travel possible.�
Oct 1, 2012
efusco Agreed, Chelsea seems much more inclined toward the shorter range vehicles for EVs and staying with gasers for long range. I'm of the belief that 90% of Americans don't view cars that way (not that they can't one day), but that they see cars as a symbol of American freedom as much as they do a tool, and they want that ability, even if not exercised, to jump in their car and just "go", as far and in any direction they wish. Having multiple vehicles is costly and requires storage, renting requires extra expense and planning, borrowing requires a trusted friend. I, personally, like the Tesla concept, I think 400 mile range or at least 300 "real world" (fully loaded, AC in summer, 75-80mph interstate in hilly Ozark driving) would be about ideal, few people want to go farther than that on a given stint without at least a short break. But having that confidence that local driving will never be a challenge is great.�
Oct 1, 2012
KenEE Uh.... Someone said Tesla was going to release an adapter. I said "I hope it's available soon. "
You think I should have said "I hope its available I have no idea" ??????
Hehe. No worries.�
Oct 1, 2012
arg Has anyone worked out a plausible way of handling the mechanical side of this? The electronics side is easy (assuming access to the specifications), but what is it going to look like?
I googled a couple of specs on the connector:
www.smdinc.com/pdf/DC_Charging_Coupler_Manual.pdf
http://global-sei.com/chademo/
http://charge.yazaki-group.com/english/download/index.html
Aside from the humorous safety warnings ("do not put this product in sea/swiming pool/hot spring"), this gives a weight of 1.8Kg/1Kg (different manufacturers) for the plug on the end of the CHAdeMO charger, and the cable at 1.6Kg/m and 35mm diameter. The plug is also long (about 300mm including the handle). I can't find a weight for the socket - probably rather less than the plug - but it's also big: needing a panel area approx 100x100mm to mount to, and over 100mm deep. The mating portion is 37mm, so you have a combined length of something like 370mm when mated.
So, if you try to build a 'can' style adaptor to mount to the Model S, you are not going to get any of the CHAdeMO bits inside the charge port, and the whole thing (once plugged in) is going to stick out about half a metre, with the weight of the cable (besides the adaptor itself) hanging down on that. And, for safety, it's going to have to be strong enough that it doesn't break if the user decides to lean/sit on the end of it. Is the Tesla connector strong enough to take that bending stress on it? I haven't handled the Tesla connector so I may be overstating the problem, but the increased size of the CHAdeMO over the J1772 seems to make this problematic.
On the other hand, if you try to make a box that sits on the floor, the cable needs to be quite long (as it's not very flexible). Maybe 1.5m of cable? Plus a chunky box that's at the very least 120mm cube (4" cube) and probably bigger: they are too heavy to hold the CHAdeMO in one hand and the box in the other to mate them, so it's probably a case of holding the box in place on the floor with your foot while you plug/unplug the cable from the charger - so maybe pedals on the side of this thing? This could doubtless be made to work, but the adaptor is going to end up weighing several kilos and with a long length of inflexible cable sticking out of it - not a very handy thing to carry around in your Frunk.
From an engineering perspective, upgrading the CHAdeMO chargers to have multiple output cables sounds a better prospect - either a properly integrated solution provided by the charger manufacturer, or else an adaptor as above, but screwed to the wall next to the CHAdeMO charger - so you plug the CHAdeMO into the box on the wall and then plug the other cable into your Model S. Main trouble with this plan is the politics - it's not going to fly with the CHAdeMO chargers installed at Nissan dealers!�
Oct 1, 2012
stopcrazypp No way it's $100 in parts. The J1772 connector alone is $125 (Chinese part not UL certified). The CHAdeMO connector is even more complicated.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/4478-J1772-Charging-for-the-Tesla-Roadster
As for pricing:
Tesla charges $600 for a Roadster-to-110V connector, $750 for a Roadster-to-J1772. $1500 for UMC.
HC-sharp charges $600 for a pin-to-pin J1772 adapter.
http://www.teslamotors.com/roadster/charging/spare-mobile-connector
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/8399-Short-and-sweet-J-1772-to-Roadster-adapter-lockable
I think a Tesla to J1772-DC adapter will be priced about the same as a J1772 adapter. Given the required electronics, a Tesla to CHAdeMO adapter is likely going to be in the same ball park as the UMC ($1000-2000).
And don't bet on a CHAdeMO adapter for any Model S not equipped for supercharging. For DC charging you need contactors inside the car so that the connector can have a direct connection to the battery. That will be missing in cars without the hardware for supercharging. There's no way Tesla will be building a DC to AC converter so that CHAdeMO goes through the onboard chargers (that's inefficient and likely unsafe, plus you are still limited by your onboard charger at 10kW or 20kW).�
Oct 1, 2012
TEG Well, for CHAdeMO, local interests have done saturation in pockets. So, it hasn't really been a "nationwide rollout" (yet).
But, for a car like the LEAF (with ~ < 100 mile range), doing 150 mile apart CHAdeMOs around the country wouldn't offer much benefit. Having a string of them through Washington and Oregon state spaced 50 miles apart is more useful to a LEAF (if you happen to be in Washinton or Oregon).
If you look at EV sales, they tend to be (so far) concentrated in certain areas as well. Doing the west coast gives more "bang for the buck" in terms of raw numbers of EVs nearby that will actually use them.
Perhaps next in line would be NY/NJ, Chicago area, and Florida.
(But Tennessee is a LEAF hot spot, and Texas seems to be doing EVs in a big way recently.)�
Oct 1, 2012
vfx Note she also thinks Tesla is doing the opposite of what they should do with car chargers. That the 40 needs fast charging more than the 85.�
Oct 1, 2012
RDoc Just the electronics.
The rest shouldn't be a lot more than the J1772. Once the housing is together, the number of connectors shouldn't be a big deal.�
Oct 1, 2012
rsquared99 I expect that Tesla is getting plenty of feedback from the people going through their stores asking, "but what if I need to take a longer trip?" The answer to that question according to Chelsea is, "you won't want to, you'll fly instead." So that answer means a lost customer to Tesla. Tesla's answer has just become, "if you need to take a longer trip, we'll have a supercharger network that can get you cross-country, and by the way, the use of this system is free." With that answer Tesla gains a customer. Now, will the customer really use the SC system that much. Probably not (unless they are retired like I am and have nothing by time on their hands), but they know they "can" use the system if needed. I think it's the perfect answer to range anxiety. And I disagree with Chelsea that the SC system is really needed by the lowest range Model S. I think people electing to buy the lowest range S are sizing it that way because they really intend it to be a daily commuter car and they already plan to use something else for long range (plane or ICE secondary car) or they are stretching their budget to get in on the technology at the lowest level. Both of these groups of buyers are probably looking to move up to those longer range vehicles, but can except that they can't or don't want to take the whole pizza in one bite.�
Oct 1, 2012
RDoc Apropos of this thread, perhaps the 40 kwh cars are exactly the ones that should have a CHAdeMO interface.
With respect to range capability, they are more like the Leaf than like the 85 kwh Teslas. Long distance driving is pretty difficult for them, even if there were a lot of recharging stations because they'd have to stop so often. OTOH, local quick charges are very useful, and even the lower powered CHAdeMO chargers could recharge them 50% in a reasonable time.�
Oct 1, 2012
TEG I can see that point if you are using the Supercharger to keep you going on a localized basis. You run a bunch of errands for half the day and run down your 40kW pack and want a QC just to do more errands around the area for the rest of the day (in a case where overnight charging wasn't enough.)
For 85kWh, an overnight charge should handle most full day driving needs except when you are doing some sort of long distance ("cross country") road trip.
Since the only Model S variants being made right now are all 85kWh it makes more sense to answer the road trip question first with the nationwide Supercharger network. Eventually when the shorter range versions are made then they could start hearing about how people wish they had "local" Supercharging to make it through the day with their smaller pack. Fact is, the customer that gets the entry level version will have to accept a lot of compromises:
#1: Lower performance.
#2: May not have enough capacity for a full day of driving, so plan your daily route carefully.
#3: Not a good long distance / road trip car. Even if they offered Supercharging, the Superchargers might not be close enough together for that range, so wishing you had it for that reason ends up being somewhat pointless.
Tesla is really the only company that is making long distance EV cross-country road trips possible. And only with their higher end models.�
Oct 1, 2012
RDoc Actually, one of the sales people at the Natick store opening said something similar. Most people will drive their ICE car on long trips, so won't use the Superchargers. Since our ICE car is an NSX, that's not going to happen with us.
Hopefully, most Tesla owners will take their ICE cars though. That way, when we pull into a Supercharger location, there will be lots of free slots!�
Oct 1, 2012
vfx Don't forget the with an adapter you can get charges everywhere else like everyone else.
Right, if you want that feature you have to pay for it. Later models will go the same distance and will be cheaper.�
Oct 1, 2012
TEG I didn't forget - I just consider it too slow to be realistic for the average person to consider waiting that long on a long drive which requires multiple stops. It will be fine for overnight home charging, or charge at work during the day... Thus the shorter range vehicles work OK as commuter cars...�
Oct 2, 2012
doug Some good observations in this post. I think you're right that the CHAdeMO end will likely have to be a box that sits on the ground. However, the cable from that box to Model S charging port is at worst as stiff as the Supercharger cable which isn't horribly stiff. It's not too dissimilar to the original Roadster HPC cable. Since the current is lower, they may be able to get away with a thinner cable. Should probably still put a 120 or so degree angle pointing down on the Model S connector, though.�
Oct 2, 2012
Adm Since the issue of this thread has been resolved it would appear logical to open a new one to discus the technical side and maybe another one to speculate about the price.�
Oct 2, 2012
vfx
Stiff enough that they figured the connector would not touch the ground....
At least one tech though the connector would not be damaged on the ground if the cable was left unclicked into it's clamp.�
Oct 2, 2012
doug Either way, the bending radius is large enough that you'd need a right angle connector at the car (as I mentioned above) if the CHAdeMO plugs into a box on the ground.�
Oct 2, 2012
RDoc It seems to me that the existing connector on the car must be pretty hefty. Consider the J1772 connector locked into the car with J1772 and cable attached. I'd think the whole assembly would be more than strong enough to withstand someone falling onto it. It wouldn't be too hard to do either since the diameter of any of the connectors is large enough that it could have a lot of bending strength. Think about a heavy aluminum tube 4" in diameter welded onto the body near the suspension pickup.
Anyway, the CHAdeMO handle is about 38 cm long, and if the Tesla adapter put the electronics around the end of the CHAdeMO plug rather than inline, it shouldn't add much to the length sticking out, maybe another 3 cm. That doesn't sound excessive, assuming the Tesla connector is at least as strong as the Leaf.
Placing the box on the ground seems a bit fraught doesn't it? We get a lot of snow, slush and ice around here, and while the water wouldn't do the box any good, the snowplows would be really tough!�
Oct 2, 2012
doug Does the Model S charge door flap allow enough clearance for a CHAdeMO connector?
�
Oct 2, 2012
Lloyd probably
�
Oct 2, 2012
TEG CHAdeMO plug is rather large...
(Model S socket is about the size of the smaller circle on the J1772 to the left)
(CHAdeMO on left, J1772 on right)
By the way, Audi R8 w/CHAdeMO:
Audi R8 e-tron Captures EV World Record with 8:09 Nurburgring Lap - WOT on Motor Trend�
![[?IMG]](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/blogger_img_proxy/AEn0k_sYgrV74u3hTaA4YrRURGORvLp3t5-vvb9A6BrbBrHKh4SjcboQgo3xQMsCpxNmGRvfPpXHE-Dr6G3KjccbqRcKHKe_7AnjXfc7IQ455Ljcijifwzuo34Gh0oimnvKkfs3I363hDASuYKgPG5dAy1A_=s0-d)
![[?IMG]](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/blogger_img_proxy/AEn0k_th42Ctas6ZDJ3yS9jsge6fsWuNZvTcaES1wpUUXhFItb-IdKttCwX-hl1zA0_U0YMQfao63Tc4OYK9wNoclnuiuUIdRVEMS6ynAMuasvbbhoYhge2YQI70hGgn8FglqVboK1gaK3dO31Lcnb3eN_Eb1qVAzfwMecU5la8=s0-d)
Oct 2, 2012
arg I wasn't so worried about bending the car as snapping the adaptor in half. The adaptor is going to have a big, rigid section around the CHAdeMO connector and a thin portion going into the car, with an obvious weak point where they join. So far as I can tell, the Tesla connector is a plastic shell with inserts for the pins - so not particularly rigid.
Judging from a video showing the J1772 adapter, the Tesla connector is smaller than the barrel of the J1772 (1.65"=42mm), so about 30mm diameter?
It looks marginal - images show a J1772 filling most of that space, and it's a lot smaller.
Maybe it could be done with a custom moulding that tapers in, incorporating the CHAdeMO and Tesla ends all in one piece - but that's a tricky thing to make since the pins aren't running straight through but also need to be tapped (including the power pins) for the control electronics. Building a housing to connect two off-the-shelf plugs together into an adaptor looks out of the question.�
Oct 2, 2012
AndyM For the record, I believe TEG has the best replies.�
Oct 2, 2012
doug Perhaps the CHAdeMO part could be slightly offset to the left. If Tesla build it in a single unit, I'd expect it to be custom moulded, similar to their J1772.�
Oct 3, 2012
mknox Is there any concern around the weight of these J1772 and CHAdeMO adapters and cables hanging off of the Model S charge port? The Tesla cables look fairly sleek and light, and I just wonder about damaging the socket on the car with these adapter things...�
Oct 3, 2012
Kevin Sharpe Yes, lots of concern here... CHAdeMO is heavy�
Oct 3, 2012
TEG I am thinking a box that sits on the ground where you plug in the CHAdeMO and then it has an integrated cable that ends with the Tesla plug.
Note, MANY CHAdeMO I HAVE SEEN ONLY HAVE A SHORT CABLE JUST LONG ENOUGH TO REACH THE NOSE PORT OF A LEAF.
If you want to plug Model S into CHAdeMO you will need an extension cable anyways (in many cases).
So, I don't think using the J1772 mini adapter is a good reference point for the CHAdeMO adapter.
I don't think the CHAdeMO adapter should hang off the side of the car. Unfortunately it probably needs to be a fairly big device.
(But thankfully Model S has lots of storage room. Perhaps a good use of the "Frunk" on Road trips where you plan to do CHAdeMO charging... )
Hmm, I wonder if it would make sense for Tesla to leave CHAdeMO adapter devices at selected CHAdeMO sites?
Perhaps they could be security chained to the CHAdeMO charger (so no one would take it away), and then Model S drivers wouldn't have to lug a bulky adapter with them.�
Oct 3, 2012
markb1 So longer runs of cable generally need to be thicker, right? So how thick would a cable have to be to extend from the CHAdeMO connector all the way to charge port on the Model S? I suppose the cable doesn't have to be that long if you back into the parking space, though.�
Oct 3, 2012
TEG Notice how short the cables are here:
There is no spool/reel there... That is the full length of the cable. When you park a LEAF behind those protective posts, the cable is just long enough to reach the nose of the car.
�
Oct 3, 2012
Kevin Sharpe The DC cable is often one inch or more thick and is very heavy... most CHAdeMO chargers keep the cable length between 3 and 5 meters because it becomes unmanageable... think 'gas pump'
If you want some idea of just how 'heavyweight' this technology is then take a look at the CHAdeMO QC Installation Manual�
Oct 3, 2012
doug Yeah, Models S would have to back in and CHAdeMO would have to plug into a box on the ground.�
Oct 3, 2012
TEG In keeping with the auto-extending door handles, and pop-open charge flap, it would be cool if a CHAdeMO adapter could auto-extend out of the lower rear of the vehicle after you backed in and pressed the right button on the touch screen.
Not likely on existing Model S already delivered, but perhaps something they could add eventually.
- - - Updated - - -
And you can see what Tesla did with the Supercharger cable. They made it the bare minimum length to reach to port if you park in exactly the right spot for Model S. Also they pointed it up, so you can have gravity help you bend the cable over to the car. (No "lifting" of a heavy cable required.)
Contrary to the precursor superlatives, nothing in the Supercharger unveil really "blew me away" or caused a "never thought of that", but it is the little details like this that make me appreciate that they are being careful and thoughtful about the way they deploy this.�
Oct 3, 2012
vfx As stated before, we are not the group to be surprised. And "Free" was pretty close to the blow away category.�
Oct 3, 2012
dpeilow Someone doesn't like the look of the Supercharger box
Or maybe the superchargers are being financed by a hedge fund :scared::crying::scared:�
Oct 3, 2012
TEG I wonder if that "hedge" was just a prop backdrop for the photo-op?
Anyone know if it is still there?
If so, is it a real, growing hedge?�
Oct 3, 2012
Doug_G Looks rather like a Photoshop hedge to me.
�
Oct 3, 2012
vfx So dark it's hard to tell. Plastic or PS.�
Oct 3, 2012
HawaNY
OK, wait, why hasn't the Roadster done the Nurburgring? The street R-8 etron has the same 125mph top speed limitation, which they increased to 155 for this stunt to grab the record. As a German, I demand the same respect from TM. (Sorry to be off topic!)�
Oct 3, 2012
TEG Yeah, this was a recent photo too:
Buy, Sell or Research a New or Used Car - New York Times - The New York Times
And no hedge there!
Bring me a shrubbery! (Better get me a bucket too!)
- - - Updated - - -
Might want to check out this thread:
Tesla Roadster on N�rburgring Nordschleife
�
Oct 3, 2012
artsci Could the the CHAdeMO be any bigger or more bulky? That alone should kill it. It seemed some somebody worked very hard to design the ugliest plug possible. Surely a good industrial designer could have created a plug with the same functionality but much better aesthetics.�
Oct 4, 2012
Kevin Sharpe While I also hate most of the current CHAdeMO connector designs the reality is they do work and today that's what's important.�
Oct 4, 2012
KenEE I just heard back from Tesla NOT to expect an adapter anytime soon.
"When it comes to DC fast charging using the CHAdeMO system Tesla Motors has not announced any plans to use the fast charge DC CHAdeMO. I agree the more charging the better, but I am not sure if the technologies really match up at this point. Tesla Superchargers have no impact on the degradation of the battery. Tesla Motors is very proud of this and we must be certain that other technology can do the same. The more charging solutions you have the better, but I would not expect an adapter for the CHAdeMO charger any time soon. "
So who do we trust? "Ownership Experience Team" or "HQ Product Specialist"?�
Oct 4, 2012
Discoducky I'd expect something formal by the time P#'s and 40/60's start shipping as we'll have a need for these more than Sig's�
Oct 4, 2012
dpeilow No, that photo was taken on Brad's drive down to the event so was before they put them in place.�
Oct 4, 2012
doug Which said that quote above?
Without any more info, this bit sounds like nonsense. The lower charge rate of CHAdeMO is likely to be more gentle on the battery and anyhow the car's control software determines the voltage and current supplied. Are they suggesting that the CHAdeMO stations will have random voltage spikes or something?�
Oct 4, 2012
jkirkebo The 40's wont be able to use a hypothetical CHAdeMO-adapter anyway, as they lack the SuperCharger hardware.�
Oct 4, 2012
ahimberg So sounds like CHAdeMO is too big for a small can adapter, plus isn't electrically identical to j1772
Is the bulkiness of SAE J1772-DC also a concern, or a similar sized can adapter will be ok with the weight of a very heavy DC cable?
Personally I just want the SAE adapter and hope the CHAdeMO locations become dual standard supporting chargers -- just need all those claiming to support SAE to get some cars out�
Oct 4, 2012
KenEE The quote I posted was from the HQ Product Specialist. There was no other explanation or info other than what I posted above. I did send him the posted email from the OE guy/gal stating there would be an adapter and if he could get with them to work it out. I'll post the results if he gets back with me.�
Oct 4, 2012
stopcrazypp The J1772 DC is electrically compatible with Tesla's plug (like J1772). Tesla just needs to route the two power pins to the two extra DC pins on the bottom. I think a can sized adapter should be possible (DC cable weight issue aside).
A CHAdeMO adapter will necessarily need to be larger because of the extra electronics necessary to handle the CAN-bus based hand shaking. Most likely it'll be a box of some sort.
Basically all American based CHAdeMO charger manufacturers (like Akerwade, Eaton) say their existing CHAdeMO chargers will be updated to support SAE protocol, which likely means those chargers can be retrofitted with a SAE connector in the future. Aerovironment didn't say their CHAdeMO charger can be updated, but they are one of the leaders of the J1772-DC committee anyways, so I figure they will have a solution when the time comes. Don't bet on the Japanese chargers (like the 400 free ones Nissan donated) supporting it though.�
Oct 5, 2012
widodh I heard they are doing the same in Europe.
Quick chargers will either support CHAdeMO with the new SAE DC and have a 3-phase 63A connector. All results in something between 44kW and 50kW.�
Oct 7, 2012
sublimaze1 Most certainly not OET. Not to be offensive to them (as mine has been helpful), but they do not have the information to give.�
Oct 10, 2012
Larry Chanin Of course these two statements are not mutually exclusive. The Ownership Experience Team didn't specify a timeframe, and the Product Specialist didn't definitively state that there wouldn't be an adapter.
Larry�
Oct 10, 2012
sublimaze1 My OET rep had a similar response: "it is in the works"�
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