Mar 27, 2016
Beryl 
Now I'm beginning to wonder if there is an algorithm problem. Your climate has been colder so that makes 303 even more incredible.
(Still consistently getting 255 @ 90%)�
Mar 27, 2016
sorka Unless you have a 100D that's ideal and not rated miles.�
Mar 27, 2016
msnow That is just bizarre.�
Mar 27, 2016
Naonak You are right... I must have switched it to ideal at some point and never switched it back. Weird. I've switched it back now ... I will check what my 90% is next time I charge. Sorry about that.�
Mar 29, 2016
cinergi holding steady at 254 when warm and 252 when cold. only 3700 miles on the car tho. 6 months.�
Apr 12, 2016
marin The configurator page for the new facelifted 90D now shows 294 total range. This matches up more closely to the 267 @ 90% I was seeing with the newer 90D loner that I had.
So far I've seen the configurator page show the following 90D ranges: 270 + 6%, 288, and now 294.�
Apr 12, 2016
msnow After 6 or 7 months my 100% is about 276-278. It should be 286-287. Not sure where they came up with 294 it's the same battery as discussed upthread. The congfigurator just says "range" not "rated range" which is the EPA rating. Just saying range could be "ideal range" or something else.�
Apr 12, 2016
Boatguy I took delivery yesterday and this morning my 90% RR was 264.�
Apr 12, 2016
apacheguy Not one person in this thread has access to a CAN logger to read battery energy data?�
Apr 13, 2016
BertL FWIW, I installed firmware 7.1 2.16.17 last evening. It had no effect on Rated Range after my 90% top-off occurred early this morning. My S90D remains at 250-252 miles @ 90% over the last couple months, with temp still having no correlation to the slight variation.�
Apr 13, 2016
Model S M.D. I've got a 90D loaner with 500 miles on the car, consistently getting 265 @ 90%.�
Apr 13, 2016
msnow I may have got an extra mile Rated Range after the update but I also did a trip charge so it could have just rebalanced, more testing needed. I will report back. Currently getting 250-252 with range mode off.
@Model S M.D. you really need to see it after a couple of months to say it's consistent not just a day two.�
Apr 13, 2016
BertL Interesting. As you know, I run with Range Mode ON and have purposely not changed it while trying to figure out what's going on with Rated Range -- so right or wrong, I've always attributed your slightly lower nums than mine being because of that. With our [email�protected]% now effectively within rounding error difference of one another, perhaps it has nothing to do with Range Mode...
Too much hocus-pocus going on under the covers for my older mind to assess I suppose. I just want my RR to be within a mile or two of what was quoted on the website as RR for the Range Upgrade Option when I purchased my MS, regardless of the whole "it's gonna get worse over time" discussion. Ours were not close on day of delivery, and have remained consistently low -- especially now compared to newer 90's that are lightyears ahead of our RR with IIRC the same battery revisions. Sighhhh. I guess I'm just a difficult customer to please on this subject.�
Apr 13, 2016
msnow Agree, if I flip Range Mode to "on" I either get an additional mile RR or no change.�
Apr 15, 2016
Ingineer Data Point: I just did a 100% charge in my P90D and it's showing 267.4 rated miles, The CAC (Calculated Amp-Hour Capacity) is 239Ah. I am running current software (2.16.17).
Here are my string voltages in case anyone is curious: 4.192,4.190,4.189,4.189,4.188,4.192,4.195,4.194,4.194,4.194,4.194,4.196,4.194,4.194,4.191,4.191,4.194,4.195,4.196,4.194,4.195,4.195,4.194,4.198,4.192,4.191,4.191,4.191,4.191,4.192,4.196,4.196,4.193,4.196,4.195,4.196,4.193,4.191,4.189,4.188,4.189,4.193,4.195,4.194,4.194,4.194,4.194,4.195,4.195,4.194,4.194,4.194,4.193,4.195,4.194,4.193,4.192,4.193,4.192,4.194,4.193,4.193,4.193,4.191,4.192,4.193,4.196,4.194,4.194,4.194,4.194,4.194,4.196,4.197,4.197,4.196,4.196,4.197,4.195,4.195,4.195,4.194,4.194,4.195,4.196,4.194,4.194,4.194,4.194,4.195,4.193,4.192,4.192,4.192,4.192,4.192
And I have access to all data from the BMS and can log any CAN data as well.�
Apr 15, 2016
BertL Simply for comparison, my non-P S90D last charged to 100% on 3/20 and showed 280 Rated Range miles (251 @ 90%).�
Apr 15, 2016
msnow Did 100% last night too. Mine is also 280 rated miles with Range Mode off.�
Apr 15, 2016
apacheguy @Ingineer - How does CAC translate to the full pack energy reported by the BMS? In other words, what is the voltage multiplier to get Ah -> kWh?�
Apr 15, 2016
MarcG From my understanding of the 85 kWh battery, the pack is arranged in 96 series modules of 74 parallel cells, so you add up the voltages of all the 96 modules then multiply the resulting total voltage by the Ah capacity to get Wh capacity (divide by 1000 to get kWh, obviously).
In the example Ingineer provides, if you add up all his modules' voltages, you get a total pack voltage of 402.578 V. Multiply that by 239 Ah and you get 96,216 Wh or 96.2 kWh. Note that there are resistive losses so that's not necessarily the real pack's capacity.�
Apr 24, 2016
Ingineer There is no fixed voltage. As the pack discharges, the voltage falls. This is why battery manufacturers use amp-hours instead of watt-hours to rate thier products. The formula to correlate the two is going to be complex. As a rule of thumb you can use the nominal voltage of the cells. Sometimes it works out better to use the average between full and low voltage cut off too, but this is only going to be a rough estimate without plotting dVdT.
What you can do though is compare the CAC between an 85 and a 90 since it appears the voltages are almost identical.
My Wife's P85D with about 15k miles is reading a CAC of 226Ah and my P90D pack with about 4k miles is now reading 240Ah. (It appears to have risen one amp hour) This car also just got the 2.17.37 software.
If we extrapolate using 375 volts as the nominal, we get exactly 90kWh on my 90 pack, and 84.75kWh on my Wife's 85.
If we do it with 370v, we then get 88.8kWh and 83.62kWh respectively.
360v is 86.4kWh / 81.36kWh. This seems more in line with what people are seeing real-world. That would be about 276 / 260 miles if we assume an average of about 313Wh/Mi.
Earlier tonight my 90% charge on the 90 is showing 396 volts with an expected energy of 72.5kWh (BMS_E_Expect) and an Ideal of 74.8kWh (BMS_E_Ideal). So 100% on it should be about 80.6kWh Expected and 83.11kWh if you take stock in the BMS numbers. Of course, the watt-hour to amp-hour conversion is not going to be linear because the dV-dT discharge curve is also not linear on most Lithium cells, it's sort of an S curve with larger swings at each end.
Next time I do a 100% charge, I'll note the figures again.�
Apr 24, 2016
kort677 7500 miles on my 12/15 delivered s 90 d, no changes so far, 90% = 257 100 % = 287�
Apr 24, 2016
BertL Great news for you. Enjoy that MS!�
Apr 24, 2016
Boatguy My S90D was delivered April 11: 90% = 264 100% = 292�
Apr 25, 2016
Stirthepot I took delivery 9/8/15. My 90% is now at 240. I have complained twice while in for service and stated that I want a new battery. I'll be going back next week to escalate again�
Apr 25, 2016
jeffro01 Why do you think you need a new battery? Seems like a drastic spot to dig your heals in...
My 90% is 250 pretty consistently. I'd sure love to know how some of you are getting such high 90% numbers but...
Jeff�
Apr 25, 2016
Boatguy I don't think it's "how", it's "why".�
Apr 25, 2016
pgiralt My S85 with 77k miles range (100%) charged to 251 miles this weekend which is 5.3% drop from 265 when new. 5% over 1 year seems excessive, but something like 3% after the first year sounds about right. I think I had about 3% drop in the first 25k miles or so. The degradation seems to slow down over time.�
Apr 25, 2016
ArtInCT Jeff:
I believe that 90D has a different and more optimistic Rated Miles algorithm that takes into account the lesser power draw than our P90D's consume.
That said, I charge at about 82% each morning and since getting the P90D, my Rated Miles has consistently been 221 miles at 82%.
When I charge to 90% I am still at 241 which is what I had when new on March 3, 2016. I have 1600 miles on the P90D now. Average kWh per mile is about 336.
An observation, now that the weather here in New England is warming up, my Rated Range and Actual are getting closer to each other. Perhaps this is due to the fact that I am no using HVAC as much? Mornings are 55F and daytime is 60-70F.�
Apr 25, 2016
Beryl Still getting 255 @ 90%. (4.5 months and 3418.5 miles)
>260 would be nice but I'm not complaining. However, if I was only getting 240 miles so early on, I would request another battery.�
Apr 25, 2016
Stirthepot Why wouldn't I want a new battery. I have lost 25 miles of charge since September. 5 miles in the last 6 weeks alone. I paid 3k for the upgrade, it's clearly not performing as promised. If other are running the same firmware why are they staying relatively stable and mine continuing to drop? I'm not buying the firmware issue, if it's was firmware all 90d owners should see the same results, must be a hardware difference somewhere, likely the battery. If not the battery, I'll take the other hardware remedy - I believe it's the battery. I'm not even comfortable with a $3k refund as the battery seems to be the problem.
I've been patient enough IMO.�
Apr 25, 2016
bmah Just out of curiosity, why 82% (as opposed to 80% or 90%)?
Bruce.�
Apr 25, 2016
ArtInCT Bruce:
I just went one click on the slider beyond 80 to see what the difference was in miles. About 2 was the answer. Then being the lazy type I left the slider there.... I hope that answers your question... no magic.... tragic really.... Lazy.
Art�
Apr 25, 2016
MartinAustin My P85 with 60k miles Range Charges to between 253 and 258 miles at the moment. Seems to depend on how much it's got in it when I start the 100% charge. Also the range has been seen to rise by 2 miles or so a couple of hours AFTER charging is complete. (did it today... from 253 to 255). 255 is 94.8% of the 269 miles it had when it was new 2.5 years ago. I've been full-charging almost every day since October last year, and honestly the range of the cat hasn't fallen by any appreciable amount. (it does not sit for long periods of time on full charge and never gets re-charged before it gets driven) It was 255 when I started in October, and it's still 255 today. The degradation definitely seems to be slowing down. Perhaps this last sentence is the most relevant part for rawn77.�
Apr 25, 2016
bmah Ah, I was hoping you'd stumbled on something insightful and/or profound.
Thanks!
Bruce.�
Apr 25, 2016
apacheguy I guess another way to phrase my question is how does the CID calculate nominal full pack energy? Does it take the BMS CAC as input? Can I read raw CAC values off of CAN3? I don't believe anyone has documented this.�
Apr 25, 2016
fictionlab 4000ish miles on my mid-December delivered 90D
Charge regiment is generally top-off daily; up to 100%. On occasion I will back it down to 90% to chart with others owners experiences.
- 90% = 259
- 100% = 287
�
Apr 28, 2016
msnow I agree with you entirely and I'm in the same boat. I am concerned that Tesla is not making this right as promised to us a few months ago. What are you going to do about it?�
Apr 28, 2016
Edmond A big factor in this is how many Wh/M you're using. And Wh/M is heavily influenced by rolling resistance.
I posted a thread over in the MS forum describing alignment issues and the findings of lolachampcar. Those who take the advice gain 10%-20% in range and the car feels like it's on rails. But, everyone chooses their own path.�
Apr 28, 2016
msnow This is a different issue. Suggest you read through the threads. This has to do with a fairly rapid loss of rated range (about one mile per week for about 4 months) from when the car was delivered.�
May 1, 2016
dweeks My one month old 90D with 3050 miles...80% 230 rated miles. 100% 289 rated miles.�
May 1, 2016
msnow Did you ever get the 294 at 100% the other newer owners got or did you lose 5 miles in a month?�
May 1, 2016
GoTslaGo S 70D; Oct/Nov 15; 7900 miles, 90% 214 miles.
90% started at 215 miles, dipped to 211 miles, and now at 214 miles.
Daily miles approx 10-15 miles when it was at 211 miles.
For a while we were averaging 80-100 miles a day and we saw our 90% go up to 214.
Now approx 20-30 miles daily with more highway miles and 90% at 214 miles.�
May 1, 2016
GoTslaGo Oops, wrong 90....�
May 2, 2016
ArtInCT Exactly 2 month old P90D, 241 rated miles when new, today after charging to 90%, 242 rated miles.
BTW, I typically charge to 82% over the last month on a daily basis. Nothing special about 82% vs 80% just set it there
and left it until last evening.
BTW I am on 2.17.37 firmware.�
May 2, 2016
Pale Hearse Got my 90D in early august. Brand new the max charge was 288 miles.
Now, with 25,000 miles on it, full is 272-277 depending on temperature outside and also if I charge at home vs supercharger.
Some interesting items of note. When I charge at the supercharger it seems to show a higher number, but the first 3 miles are inaccurate. Basically you loose 2 or 3 miles within the first mile of leaving the supercharger. The next 5 miles or so seem to deplete rather rapidly also.. then it stabilizes out.
I don't baby it.. I drive with a bit of a led foot. It is highly likely that my displayed range is a product of how I drive rather than the battery degrading.
The reason I feel this is true is that aside from what was said above on a range charge, when I charge to 90% the mileage is VERY accurate and often miscalculates my arrival percentage in the positive not the negative. So I do believe there are some calculations going on there.�
May 3, 2016
tinaxurs I have a 2013 85 that I bought used from Tesla with 15,000 miles on it. I calculated the battery capacity by checking the % charge and the KWH charged. According to that the full 100% capacity of my battery is 72KWH. I checked with the Service Department, they told me that this is about normal for the age of the car. Nevertheless they tested the battery and sent the results to headquartes. No response from them yet.
I do not know if the 85KWH original capacity is the theoretical capacity or the actual available capacity. My guess is that it is the theoretical capacity and that in reality only about 80KWH were ever available (now 72).
Does anyone have any knowledge / data about this?
-- urs�
May 3, 2016
JRP3 I think actual usable capacity was originally around 77kWh for 85 packs.�
May 3, 2016
apacheguy It depends. We've seen brand new cars with few miles on them clock in at 84 kWh. But once driven for a couple thousand miles all seem to settle down to 79-81 kWh. Static 4.0 buffer included (2.5 kWh on 60s).�
May 3, 2016
JRP3 I didn't know anyone had ever gotten more than79kWh or so.�
May 3, 2016
L-P-G I have a job on one of my servers that tracks all the API data, which includes all the battery info. Right now i have it set to save to a DB but i could modify to save to an Excel file. If anyone wants the code just let me know. It comes in really handy to have hard data when speaking with service or techs (or if you just want to track your battery usage)
Code:"charging_state": "Complete", // "Charging", ?? "charge_to_max_range": false, // current std/max-range setting "max_range_charge_counter": 0, "fast_charger_present": false, // connected to Supercharger? "battery_range": 239.02, // rated miles "est_battery_range": 155.79, // range estimated from recent driving "ideal_battery_range": 275.09, // ideal miles "battery_level": 91, // integer charge percentage "battery_current": -0.6, // current flowing into battery "charge_starting_range": null, "charge_starting_soc": null, "charger_voltage": 0, // only has value while charging "charger_pilot_current": 40, // max current allowed by charger & adapter "charger_actual_current": 0, // current actually being drawn "charger_power": 0, // kW (rounded down) of charger "time_to_full_charge": null, // valid only while charging "charge_rate": -1.0, // float mi/hr charging or -1 if not charging "charge_port_door_open": true�
May 3, 2016
msnow This being a 90D thread I would guess most get more than 79kwh right?�
May 3, 2016
apacheguy See post 809. 79.3 + 4.0 = 83.3 kWh:
Tesla's 85 kWh rating needs an asterisk (up to 81 kWh, with up to ~77 kWh usable)
88.9 according to the same thread.�
May 3, 2016
JRP3 Yes, I was referencing 85 packs.�
May 3, 2016
JRP3 Yes, but I was talking about usable capacity, which is 79.
�
May 3, 2016
msnow @JRP3 and @apacheguy
And 4 kWh more in reserve for anti bricking or do your numbers include that?�
May 3, 2016
JRP3 My numbers are not including the 4kWh anti bricking.�
May 3, 2016
Boatguy Tesla tech support told me that rated miles are based on 300 wh/mi. My car has 292 RM @ 100% which is 87.6 kWh.�
May 3, 2016
apacheguy My numbers include the buffer since I added Nominal Full Pack Energy + Energy Buffer. When measuring degradation I think it's important to look at the entire pack capacity.
On mine the divider is slightly lower - 293 Wh/mi�
May 5, 2016
Stirthepot My 90% is now 238. A loss of two more miles in the last 2 weeks. I have another service appointment on Tuesday. When I made the appt everyone at the SC agreed my mileage was irregular and concerned. Hopefully they provide a resolution.�
May 5, 2016
msnow Have you run your battery down below 5 or 10% and then fully charged to 100%? If not you should try that. I bet you get some miles back.�
May 5, 2016
Stirthepot I ran my pack down in Feb. and charged to 100%, Saw no change. Even if I got a few miles back a loss of over 10% in 7 months in not acceptable.�
May 5, 2016
msnow Totally agree but for some of us the last couple of firmware updates added more miles as did the *deep* discharge and full charge. Let us know what the Service Center says.�
May 7, 2016
Oyvind.H My pack by the way�
May 11, 2016
Stirthepot I was once again told to await firmware. I stated that wasn't acceptable and that I wanted it escalated. I'll be following up in a few days with the SC.�
May 11, 2016
msnow Did they at least give you a reason why it was happening such as it being a algorithm problem, charging habits, etc?�
May 11, 2016
Stirthepot No, only that it's a known issue for some early 90D owners and that they are aware and looking for a fix in future firmware. It's very frustrating and common sense says it's not firmware or all the 90s would be having the issue�
May 26, 2016
Beryl The first range charge Sunday yielded 282 rated range which is small drop since the 90% charge was consistently 255. However, since that range charge, my 90% charge has be steadily declining -- 254 and now 253. I suspect that the range charge did not precipitate the decline but I hope it stops soon.
Did the firmware updates make a difference for any other 90D owners?�
May 26, 2016
dweeks my 80% charge has been holding steady at 230 miles since new (3 months and 4600 miles).�
Jul 3, 2016
olson.sc 90D purchased September 2015. 11000 mi.
100% charged today. 268 range.
�
Jul 3, 2016
msnow What was it originally and have you recently "balanced" or "recalibrated" your battery by running it down under 20% and then fully charging to 100%?�
Jul 3, 2016
ArtInCT FYI, today marks the 4th full month of ownership on the P90D. When new at 90% I was at 241. This morning after the charge to 90% I am still at 241 rated miles. I normally now charge up only to about 70% which gets me 188 to 189 rated miles. My daily use is usually under 45 miles however, a few long trips have gotten my odometer up to 5,200 miles give or take. I have Supercharged less than 10 times and only on longer trips. My charge amps is 40 and charge up every morning starting at 5 AM.
So far so good. My battery pack is the 1071394-00-A pack. Have noticed recently, in the warmer weather while on a road trip that the fans run full tilt while at the SuperCharger. In the cooler weather this behavior was not present. Since May I have had Range Mode off.�
Jul 3, 2016
Boatguy Any response from the SvC?�
Jul 3, 2016
olson.sc Was 256 @ 90% originally, which I believe is about 284 @ 100%.
I have not had it balanced or recalibrated. It was down to about 20 miles remaining yesterday.
Lost about 5% range in 9 months.�
Jul 3, 2016
msnow Charge it to 100% tonight at home while it's only 20 miles or less and see what happens.�
Jul 4, 2016
MarcG Here's another data point for you guys:
P90DL loaner, a little over 5k miles on the odo, shows 269 miles at 100% SoC (new is supposed to be 270). This is with Range Mode ON.�
Jul 4, 2016
cinergi Still holding at 254 90% and 281 100% ... 7500 miles, 9 months.�
Jul 4, 2016
Beryl Down to 247 @ 90%. SvC says it is due to the extreme heat in Texas and it should return to normal in a few months. We'll see.�
Jul 4, 2016
msnow My car is about 10 months old with 5300 miles. Our numbers are very similar 253-254 @90% and [email�protected]%. I balance my battery regularly and I'm curious if you do the same. Before I started doing that I was at 248 @90% and 279 @100%. Some firmware updates along the way also might have helped.�
Jul 5, 2016
TheTank You guys are all lucky .. My P90DL is 225 miles at 90%. It slowly declined by the 2000 mile mark and never recovered. Tesla says its a firmware update but its been since Oct 2015. It has stayed around 225-228 for the last 9 months. I now have 21500 miles and no more degredation. My previous RWD S85 had 62000 miles on it and it had 235 miles at 90%. Has anyone got Tesla to do anything about this?�
Jul 5, 2016
cinergi P90DL by definition gets less range than a 90D�
Jul 5, 2016
cinergi I don't, although I have range charged a number of times since taking ownership of the vehicle. I normally keep it at 90%�
Jul 9, 2016
cinergi Correction, 283 at 100% (did this yesterday)�
Jul 9, 2016
msnow We may have to kick you out of this thread and start a new thread called "90D Range slowing increasing".�
Jul 10, 2016
L-P-G Here's my range loss since I got my 90D
I'm currently trying to figure out what's causing that large dip in July, the only thing I can think of is the heat in July in FL.�
Jul 11, 2016
msnow So about 8-9 miles in 12 weeks? I don't think the heat is the reason though. Could be as simple as your battery needs to be balanced/recalibrated. Also if you look through the posts in this thread many lost what you did and more and were told by Tesla that its just an algorithm issue and an upcoming firmware update will correct it. We have been waiting for 6 months.�
Jul 12, 2016
tanner Yeah, I don't think it's actual battery degradation. Take it to service and see if they can recalibrate (or you could try the method of doing it yourself - draining it and charging it).�
Jul 12, 2016
apacheguy The range algo and history can be reset from the diagnostic screens.�
Jul 12, 2016
msnow Can they do that remotely?�
Jul 12, 2016
L-P-G I've done that twice already, going down to 20% and recharging
Where is this if you don't mind me asking?�
Jul 12, 2016
msnow Only technicians have access to that screen.�
Jul 15, 2016
Jurnimon I've had my inventory 90D (non refresh, original base wheels 19") for almost two weeks. I did one range charge and it stated 294 miles. The car has just under 4,000 miles. I'd expect that this car was used as a road test mule and was charged relatively frequently but its 100% is greater than I expected. I have 2.24.102 installed. Are we in the clear on the range slowly declining?�
Jul 15, 2016
msnow Time will tell but there are a few posts upthread from people presumably with the same battery as yours saying they lost 5 or 6 miles. It wasn't clear if any of them had ever balanced their battery though.�
Jul 29, 2016
Pale Hearse At 37,000 miles my full charge "rated" is 277. When I first picked it up it was 288.
This is on a 90D.
Newbie mistake, I didn't look at the ideal range. The ideal range is the range based on battery charge. Rated range is after an algorithm that takes into account how you drive.
Any on here have a new 90D that can tell me what the ideal range is on a full charge? I would like to look at mine to measure it against that.
As to yours at 266.. I would go in and have them do a battery health check for you. You should have more than that showing at full on a 90.�
Jul 29, 2016
apacheguy Range range is derived by dividing pack capacity by a constant.�
Jul 29, 2016
NOLA_Mike Rated Range is based on EPA Rated Range. It displays how many miles you can theoretically drive on the remaining battery charge if you drove it like the EPA test cycle.
Mike�
Jul 29, 2016
jmsurpri 5 month old 85D, 5200 miles. 90% still at 247 miles. Unchanged since delivery.�
Jul 30, 2016
ArtInCT Apacheguy: Can we estimate what the pack capacity is in kWh and also what the constant is?
Is the constant's unit Wh/mile?
I recall a calculation for the 90 kWh traction pack being about 85.9 kWh but perhaps my memory is wrong?�
Jul 30, 2016
BertL I've purposely gone incognito the last few months in this thread, but as I approach the 10-month anniversary owning my "early" S90D, felt I would offer perhaps a final update on the subject.
OLD NEWS Summary -- See upthread for detail
- My expectation from "pre EPA" rating info provided on TeslaMotors.com was my early S90D built 9/2015 should have at least 257 Rated Range miles at 90% and 286 @ 100% at delivery. While I'm now below that by just a few miles, I have never achieved what I feel I was sold, including the day of delivery.
- Tesla has told me in each interaction there is no issue with my S90D battery pack.
NEWer NEWS
- It was documented by Tesla in December that a future firmware release would resolve what I'll term "the display algorithm" issue related to Rated Range on my S90D. There was no ETA for delivery of this fix.
- It was documented by Tesla in April that I needed to cycle my battery from 80% to 30% for "battery efficiency". When I asked if a firmware fix was also still coming as I was told in December, I received a stare and no additional response.
- On May 5, Tesla received a Certified Signature Receipt letter from me. I clearly provided all the facts and history requested in Tesla's warranty, and asked for someone to be assigned to both resolve my Rated Range concerns, and clarify my trying to rationalize the different things Tesla has told me:
- Owner's Documentation and Videos effectively saying "plug MS in when not in use" (and let Tesla firmware handle it)
- Has there been, is there, or is there not a firmware fix coming as was documented to me in December?
- Do I really need to manually cycle my battery as I was told in April, and if so, how often -- and if this is so important, why isn't this also documented in Owner's materials for others to benefit from?
- Next week, it will be 3 months since Palo Alto received my letter. I have sadly received no acknowledgement or reply.
CONCLUSION
- Anecdotally, I believe there were some firmware improvements introduced regarding Rated Range in the 2.18.77 timeframe, which contributed to a couple points of improvement on my S90D. I have also been trying to run my battery down to 30-40% every few weeks, then allowing it to auto-charge up to 90% overnight. Once I wake up, I trip charge to 100% to cause battery balancing to take place, then within a few hours, drive my MS SoC back down under 90% (even if that means ridiculously going up and down the freeway to accomplish the task.) After performing this cycling process a couple of times since the newer firmware was installed, I picked up perhaps another point or two of Rated Range. It's really hard to precisely say what and where with only the data we as Owners have access to, so I won't get into food fights if others in the TMC-sphere have different opinions.
I think it says a lot when Tesla has presented me (and other early S90D owners) differing solutions for our lack of Rated Range over the last several months, and then elects to not reply to my certified letter. As much as I love my MS in so many other ways, I will never forget Tesla not meeting their own documented specifications how their product should have operated on day 1 of my ownership. At the very least, my trust in this new brand, and my desire for great Tesla Customer Service has been greatly diminished because of their actions and lack thereof.
Tesla has perhaps achieved what it desired, as I've sort of "gone away" trying to fully resolve my Rated Range problem or at least gaining clarity what Tesla recommends should be done. They elect not to say. With my relatively low annual mileage, I hate having to think about and deal with this whole battery cycling thing every time I arrive home deciding if I should plug my HPWC in or not, but it is what it is, and I've added it to my mental MS checklist of things to do or consider each time I exit my MS. I really feel for other early S90D owners living with much worse Rated Range problems than I have, and OTOH I'm happy for those of you taking more recent delivery who are achieving Rated Range that surpasses the pre-EPA ratings expectations owners like I had when I ordered what was to have been my greatest toy.�
Jul 30, 2016
JRP3 So you're currently within 2 miles of the 90% theoretical target from Tesla marketing and within 3 miles of the 100% theoretical target from Tesla marketing, and you feel that's not good enough? Do you expect an ICE with a 25mpg rating to get exactly that, and would you be upset if it were actually 24.8mpg, and would you even notice?�
Jul 30, 2016
Petra That's what I'm getting from his post as well... I mean, my 70D has never charged higher than 238 rated miles (should be 240) and I just figured 'eh, close enough.' Charging the car to 90% has consistently landed between 213 and 215 rated miles. That said, the car isn't quite nine months old yet and only has just shy of 9k miles on it. Accurately calculating the SoC of a large, complex battery pack is somewhat difficult and every pack is going to be a little bit different given that the performance of each individual cell is a little bit different. Yes, each cell must perform within a specific range to be considered good, but I'd imagine that those tiny variations start to add up when you're talking about battery packs with thousands of cells.�
Jul 30, 2016
NOLA_Mike I think you need to find a way to get over this. I know you feel slighted by Tesla but it's just not worth letting this minor issue ruin your otherwise enjoyment of the car.
Take this in to consideration - you could've been delivered a car that displayed the EPA (or promised or whatever) rated range upon delivery but then degraded quickly in the first year and lost 10 miles in the first year. Or, you could've been delivered a car that was always shy 8 miles of what you expected it to be but only lost 2 miles during the course of the first year. Either way you are in the same position at the end of year 1 and Tesla isn't going to do anything about either case.
It's just not worth letting it interfere with the enjoyment of the car. If you let stuff like this eat at you to the point where you don't want a Tesla anymore what would you get to replace it?
Mike
EDIT: I did not mean this post in any way berate or otherwise minimize any concerns you guys have just saying that IMO it is likely Tesla will never do anything about it.�
Jul 30, 2016
BertL I won't get into food fights, so suggest you may want to read background from a umber of folks actually encountering this problem up thread. My net is this:
- Unlike people who buy an S90D today, we "early" owners bought a Range Upgrade option that cost $3K for effectively 16 more miles at 100% charge. That was Tesla's choice to market their option like that, not mine. Any loss against those miles on the day of delivery is easy to essentially equate to having paid for something one didn't receive. You can draw your own comparative analogies... (e.g. a package of something that says there is 16 inside, but upon opening it, and only 12 are there, what would you expect as a consumer?). I already personally feel there is enough "donation" in the price of an MS to help further the cause, than having given more when I was not expecting to. Tesla not prioritizing resolution (especially if it is firmware) the same way they have with other high profile hardware-only issues, compounds some of our concern. Some other early owners as I said have a much worse problem than I... where those 16 miles are still nearly all absent or they are running with RR lower than that, yet are being told like me that all is well, and there are firmware updates still coming (but no ETA) to resolve their issue.
- I'm personally careful to keep my expectations on what specs Tesla stated when I ordered and took delivery of my specific MS... but it's anecdotally interesting from many posts here that Tesla implemented what appears to be some sort of update to the S90D battery within a few weeks or months of at least mine and some others being shipped that both allowed final EPA ratings to be higher than what it was when I and other early owners ordered or have ever achieved. I get that Tesla is always making engineering updates, but changes like that, that sort of sneek into the game when improved RR is generally such a big deal promoted to the public and press, while some number of earlier S90D can't quite get to even the original lower number does make one question what's going on.
- ...and then the question remains for me: Tesla has told and documented to me three things to resolve my concerns that are different from one another. Which am I to believe and implement to protect my investment and maximize enjoyment of my MS? Tesla has elected not to answer that. Again, it's anecdotal, and Inhate to be suspicious, but it makes at least me ask "why no reply?" I appreciate people's constructive ideas here and have read every one in this thread since its inception -- implementing several when Tesla has lacked clarity, but like others I suspect, I believe I deserve a straight single answer from my manufacturer because of the confusion they have created for me, their customer and MS Owner. I also believe there are others that may not be high mileage drivers, and even more out there that don't frequent threads like this, so wouldn't it be helpful to all of them if Tesla provided manual/video/orientation clarity how often manual cycling is necessary or not. Certainly when M3 comes into the game, there will be even more people like me that would benefit from updates to either firmware to handle the low-mileage situation some way, or perhaps notify owners they have to manually intervene with a deeper cycle at some interval.
�
Jul 30, 2016
BertL Thanks ...and I get it. It's why I have been factual and business like with Tesla from the outset -- Never a threat or loud word. I tried my last major step of writing to Tesla asking for help clarifying their varying direction -- to help me; perhaps others given the generally nebulous nature Tesla has with minimal and elusive documentation; and in hope that Tesla would use a formal letter like that as feedback and a reason to improve (as my team and I used to with customer complaints). When a month passed and I had no reply, I got more |>��~'d off about Tesla's failed Customer Service, but settled in to just live with what has evolved to be lesser problem than it was weeks and months ago.
I will always feel slighted because of the "$3K Option that should have provided 16 miles", but have moved on. I simply wanted to close my part of this thread out as I feel like one of originators some 30+ pages ago beginning last Fall when we first were identifying the problem. Lots of people jump in with opinions which is fine, but I do believe owners encountering the exact problem have a different POV others may not be able to completely understand. I do remain passionate for my fellow early S90D owners that have more severe problems than I -- still hoping Tesla comes through, but loosing hope as time progresses.
I'm outta here with feedback on my last post. Thx again to those that have been helpful along the way.�
Jul 30, 2016
msnow Just thought I would chime in here that the OP is at around 240 and 260 (90% & 100%) or 27 rated miles off of what was promised. He has also sent a letter and not received a response. He may be one of the worst cases but all of us are upset that Tesla didn't keep their word either on the range we would get or the promised fix and to not even respond to customers letters just isn't right. All of us love driving our cars but the lack of communication, transparency, and keeping promises just doesn't feel right.�
Jul 30, 2016
fallen888 I'm sorry if I'm asking something dumb and obvious, but I'm still new here (just placed my order for MS a week ago). I see a lot of people taking about charging up to 90%. Why not fully to 100%? Is that bad for the battery or something?
Thanks in advance.�
Jul 30, 2016
msnow For day to day driving Tesla recommends 70-90%. It doesn't hurt your battery to charge to 100% but it will be better for the battery to do that just when you need to such as a long trip.�
Jul 30, 2016
fallen888 That's good to know, thanks msnow. But I'm wondering how it's better for the battery? Do you have some article you can point me to?
Thanks.�
Jul 30, 2016
Boatguy @BertL has a reasonable complaint on at least two points:
1) His S90D has substantially less range than he expected when he made his purchase. He got about 10% less than they represented and than he paid for. Let me repeat that "and paid for". In any other product category this problem would be addressed by the vendor. If you buy a case of wine and one of the bottles is "corked", the winery sends you a replacement bottle (at least in my experience with any reputable winery). A $100K is sort of like a $1K case of wine, it's reasonable to expect to receive what you paid for.
My BMW i3 BEV, now two years old, has not lost a mile of range, certainly not 10%, so while Tesla's "don't bother me, suck it up" attitude may have convinced many owners, this is not something that is necessarily inherent in EVs. It is however an excellent example of "if you repeat a falsehood enough times, it starts to sound like the truth".
My S90D delivered in April (pre-refresh) has declined from 294 (EPA rated at time of purchase), to 288. It gets drained to < 20% and charged to 100% about once a month in the normal course of driving. I, and I suspect many other S90D owners, hope that we are not on the same curve as @BertL.
2) Tesla's customer service (not vehicle service) is awful. I dare to say that even Comcast, and cable companies were once the low water mark for service, has better customer service. I had several issues with my car at purchase, ranging from the most amazingly fouled up lease you can imagine, to some product issues with the car. Tesla was beyond inept. There effectively is no customer service organization, they all point fingers at someone else, ask for patience, beg for time, promise to do something, and eventually deliver "half a loaf" if you scream and shout and threaten and cajole. None of the individuals are bad people, or harbor ill intent, they are just laboring under totally inept customer service management.
This lack of customer service will spawn a crisis if the factory is able to produce even half the volume of Model 3's that Tesla is promising to produce. M3 customers will not be as generous as MS/MX customers, many of whom have used these forums to admit and accept that they are paying too much, and being too patient (whether it's loss of range, or broken promises to update software) in order to subsidize Elon's "cause". M3 customers are buying transportation, not donating to a cause. Moreever they think they are doing business with a "premium" company so their expectations are going to be higher than if they were buying a Bolt. I see no indication that Tesla is preparing for the tsunami of demands that will be placed on the customer service organization when they start shipping in volume. They do not have the organizational or information infrastructure to deal with customers, they rely on Elon's charm and the driving experience.
Tesla owes @BertL the courtesy of a reply, if it's just to tell him "too bad".
As he has expressed, he enjoys his car, but Tesla should understand that such generosity by owners is not a bottomless well. The press is poised to pounce, as we've seen with one AP death. When Tesla takes its inept customer service to the masses with the first 50,000 M3 owners, expect to see the press, both motor and press, roast them alive.
@BertL is the tip of the iceberg, not an outlier.�
Jul 31, 2016
JRP3 True, and if you look at it as paying $187.50 per mile then you were shorted $375 of product at delivery. (Going by the 90% charge since it doesn't appear as if you did a 100% charge until 40 days later). So yes, I understand that you did not get what you paid for and I understand how that could bother you, and it's unfortunate that Tesla did not provide a satisfactory response.�
Jul 31, 2016
JRP3 Really? Because after 17 months he has the same range as he did when the car was delivered. I think most people would be quite happy with that "curve".�
Jul 31, 2016
JRP3 Holding a battery at full charge for extended periods can accelerate the degradation of the electrolyte. In practice we have not really seen that effect with Tesla packs, but if you don't need a full charge you might as well avoid it most of the time. The caveat is that not charging to 100% can cause the pack capacity algorithm to under report actual pack capacity, so repeated partial charges may make the pack appear to have less capacity than it actually has.�
Jul 31, 2016
lolder Does the charged range display vary depending on past usage? For instance, the "Distance to Empty" of my 2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid is based on an algorithm that includes the past 500 miles fuel usage. That can vary 50 miles.�
Jul 31, 2016
PtG62901 As an experiment, drive the speed limit for a couple of weeks, and see if it goes back up? Slow way down, drive like you have a 4 banger ICE. lol.�
Jul 31, 2016
182RG ^ slow clap ^
I could not have said it better. The faithful will quickly become outnumbered by the masses.�
Jul 31, 2016
msnow If you look at his logs you will see it was only the last two weeks that he got that higher number. Previous to that he was only getting half of what he paid for and he's doing better than most of us early 90D buyers. For me I was down 12 of the promised 16 miles, the OP has signifucantly less (down 27 miles), and on and on. Obviously I don't expect you to read every post in this thread but there are dozens and dozens of people in this situation. I appreciate the spirit of your last sentence but it's more than "unfortunate" it is wrong and it wasn't that we didn't receive a "satisfactory response" we received no response.�
Jul 31, 2016
msnow The real issue is that if you charge to 100% and let it sit (don't drive it) the heat from that kind of a charge will put strain on the cells. Most people here will time their "Trip" charge (100%) to coincide with when they leave in order to offset the heat issue. There's some study's in this forum on that topic you can search for.�
Jul 31, 2016
TexasEV No. It's the EPA rated range. This is different than the trip display which predicts range based on recent usage.�
Jul 31, 2016
Boatguy In "Settings" you can toggle between battery percentage and rated miles (RM). My S90D loses one RM for each 273Wh of power consumed so my belief is that the RM on the display is their best estimate of the kWh available for driving divided by 273Wh.
As @TexasEV points out, it has nothing to past driving.�
Jul 31, 2016
Boatguy Your intent was clearly positive, no concerns there.
However, my hope, and perhaps the hope of others in these forums, is that by surfacing the issues that are most important to us, and voicing our concerns on a continual basis in a rational, factual and well documented manner, maybe Tesla will do something about them.�
Jul 31, 2016
ArtInCT I suspect that each model, with different propulsion configurations has a different factor for each mile. So my P90DL probably has a factor nearer to 300Wh of power for each RM. I wonder what the procedure is to arrive at the factor? Charge to 100% then drive to 0 and then divide the miles into the kWh used? Of course that does not account for the vampire drain, and the 12V recharge usage by all the 12V sub-systems.
Most recently, I have been a 12V abuser, running the HVAC with fan on higher than normal (due to the summer heat) and also noticing that the automatic ventilation system has been running at times when the car was in the sun on very hot days.�
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