Oct 22, 2015
rawn77 I received my S90D September 15th. At first with a 90% charge my range was 258 miles.
Since then my range has slowly crept down to where tonight I hit a new low of 251.
I'd like to know what other 90D owners are getting at 90%.
Is my slow decline normal?
Please chime in.
Regards
Ron�
Oct 22, 2015
Panoz Gosh - I can't believe I didn't write down my miles at a specific charge %. I know I've changed the charge point a few times already. I'll set the charge point to a fixed amount and keep track of the miles from now on.�
Oct 22, 2015
blackscraper I have the same problem. on delivery, it was 414km, now 407km�
Oct 22, 2015
travwill From what I've seen on here, it shouldn't really be the battery degrading or anything yet - instead it is the algorithm for estimating rated miles that is just estimating a lower amount. It does that based on your driving patterns which is likely not as conservative as what the standard rated would be (e.g. perfect temp, flat roads, x slow speed, not launching too fast, etc.). I'd think you'll settle into a lower number and then stay there soon...�
Oct 22, 2015
msnow Same issue here. I got delivery the same day you did 9/15. Started at 257 now 253. I plan I bringing it up with the SC whenever I bring it in the first time.�
Oct 22, 2015
Battman Got my 90D on Sept 9. Got 414-416km for the first couple of weeks. Now getting closer to 406-408km. Been super careful to keep it above 25%, and have never charged it to 100%. Was told by the Vancouver a Service manager that this is normal. Supposedly will go down the first couple of months and then should stabilize.�
Oct 22, 2015
luca http://insideevs.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/maxrange2.png�
Oct 22, 2015
TSLAX Yes we have experienced the same. On Oct 5 when the car was delivered, the car was charged to 90% and 263 miles. After delivery, it has steadily been declining. Today it was at 255 after charging to 90%. My husband spoke to our DS today and he said it was due to driving patterns. My husband has used the car mostly on the highway and somehow this is the reason why it has declined.�
Oct 22, 2015
andrewket Two things going on here.
1/ The BMS adjusting it's estimate of the capacity of the pack, using a variety of factors.
2/ The first year is the worst for battery degradation. You guys probably are seeing some real loss. It will level out.�
Oct 22, 2015
gg_got_a_tesla It's very odd though. If someone's consistently charging to 90%, they shouldn't be seeing this much of a loss.
I've had my P85D for ten months now and have consistently charged to 90%. I've stayed at 226 miles for the most part and only recently dropped to 225.
Is the new chemistry in the 90 packs behaving differently from that in the 85 packs?�
Oct 22, 2015
CHG-ON My 90% dropped from 236 to 232 suddenly in late August or early September on my 85 pack. I think it may have been related to an update. But I wasn't really paying attention to it. I was really worried at first. But it has stayed at 232 since. I do think it may be an algorithm change.�
Oct 22, 2015
andrewket My P85D which is also 10 months old is at 221 @ 90%, and has been for awhile. 100% is now 249. It was 253 when new (I think).�
Oct 22, 2015
SmartElectric This behaviour is as expected for all cars since 2012 to today.
There is an entire thread devoted to what 90% charge range is for cars, with hundreds of replies.
What's your 90%?
Don't be afraid to charge to 100% or discharge below 10% when needed.�
Oct 22, 2015
apacheguy Right, the only time I've seen loss on par with what's being claimed here is when I charged to less than 80%. I do this on hot days to minimize heat stress on the pack.�
Oct 23, 2015
Max* (70kwh battery): My 90% dropped by 2% in 4 months/10k miles.
Started off with 214-218RM at 90%, now I'm consistently at 210RM for 90%. I think my 100% dropped from 242RM down to 235RM.�
Oct 23, 2015
ecarfan It is well known that, on an annual basis, Teslas experience the highest battery capacity loss in the first year, somewhere around 2%, and then in subsequent years it is around 1% or less, on average. There are of course exceptions, but that is the average. What you describe does not sound excessive to me, though it might be slightly more than average.�
Oct 23, 2015
jerry33 Use Ideal rather than Rated range for battery degradation. Tesla seems to mess less with that algorithm. Note that there can also be battery imbalance which will show less range. FWIW my S85 is at 95% at ~60k miles and 2 years 8 months. No idea how much of that is imbalance.�
Oct 23, 2015
deonb My 100% when I got the car was at 257. Today - 25k miles and 2.5 years later its at 258. If I only charge to 80% for months and then 100% charge again it goes down to 253 and then comes back up after a few range charges.
If you only ever charge to 90%, the estimate means very little.�
Oct 23, 2015
msnow deonb - 100% 257 for a 90D?�
Oct 23, 2015
deonb P85 (you think I have a 2.5 yr old 90D? :wink: )
I was just pointing out the problem of measuring a 90% charge - not trying to compare my range to a 90D.�
Nov 17, 2015
JonathanD Not sure if this has already been covered, but I asked about max battery range and Tesla service explained that the rated range displayed is dependent upon the data from the car. It can understimate if you only occasionally do a max charge.
My S60 went from 209 max to 189 max in 1 year on a full charge. Naturally I brought it up at my appointment. Service performed a full battery diagnostic and said the battery is fine, but if I do some more frequent 100% charges (about once a week) it will give the computer more data to base the rated range on, and it will probably increase.
Hasn't been enough time to report if that advice has worked, but giving it a shot.�
Nov 17, 2015
BertL I'm only 43 days into this game with my S90D, and have really not seen substantive changes with a 90% rated range high at 255 and low of 253; with only one time charging to 100% achieving 282 a couple days ago. Temps have started to drop, but remain moderate compared to many, so I can't see any correlation to my rated range at this point. We only get a few days a year with a real freeze for a few hours in the early mornings where I live here in SoCal. IMHO, I have no alarming or supportive conclusions to draw from my limited data thus far.
Key thing I have proven at least to myself, is the whole rated range display is truly an ongoing estimate (that likely only Tesla knows how and what the parameters are in it's calculation). As I noted back a number of posts, at least once I've caught rated range changing +/-2 miles over less than 60 seconds via my Tesla App while the MS was sitting, off, in my garage mid-day, plugged into its HPWC but not charging ...that still has me baffled why the number would go down, then back up more than just 1 mile if what was occurring was only a rounding difference, and why Tesla would be recalculating it almost in real time -- just another engineering mystery for some of us to ponder.
Anyway, I'm continuing to maintain my log in case a future trend becomes more apparent, or a big seemingly permanent drop-off occurs as others are concerned with. Here's what my data looks like for those interested in the detail: View attachment Rated Range.pdf�
Nov 17, 2015
apacheguy I log range over time and I have never observed the range algo shuffling around in real time. Mine is fairly precise meaning that it charges to roughly the same rated range on any given day and it does not fluctuate throughout the day even if parked and not driven. Of course, it does decline when the car wakes to maintain the 12 V.
On a couple occasions with previous fw and another battery, I did observe rated range increase 1 mile while it was parked and not charging. Outside of those few isolated incidences I've never observed behavior remotely similar to that reported by Bert.
Great analysis. So there is some seasonality.�
Nov 17, 2015
FlasherZ Found it... on Feb 22 (2014), I had an upgrade that made my 90% jump from 225.8 to 236 in the following days.�
Nov 17, 2015
RJ Dibble Welp, same here... down one more mile to 244 (from 258). Took it in for service on a different issue (turn signals not
working-Tesla replaced the 'body module') and service guy gave the same response that we got
the first time we asked about the drop in range: that it is due to temperature. It has been colder here but I really do not think
that that is the cause.
Guess we will just have to keep on keeping track
RJ�
Nov 17, 2015
MorrisonHiker Oops. Looks like RJ double-Dibbled. :wink:�
Nov 17, 2015
RJ Dibble Ha Ha..like I haven't heard that before :wink:�
Nov 17, 2015
FlasherZ My seasonal loss (apparently due to temperature) appears to be about 3% or so. 248 is just a bit more than 3%, while 244 is more. I would watch it over the next few months and check back in around Mar-Apr (where my peak is).�
Nov 17, 2015
gway I am likely placing an order this week. My thinking has been to get the biggest battery I can get (to reduce 'range anxiety', help with resale etc). But the Tesla sales guy and this possible degradation issue has me further rethinking things. I don't really "need" the 90 so I was on the fence from a cost/benefit perspective already and now wondering if sticking to the 'tried and true 85' is the smart play at present given the relative 'newness' of the 90? Any thoughts appreciated.�
Nov 17, 2015
Galve2000 I think the algorithm that calculates rated range as been optimized by the gods at Telsa for the 85 pack and needs to be "modified" for the 90 pack. I think they just ported same from one battery to the other and it is giving a poor estimate of range for the newer 90 battery.
i have an 85D and no longer get 241 regularly on a 90% charge. but once in a blue I get 242 or 243 (WOW!!!) on a 90% and boy do I feel like a kid at Christmas on those days. Not sure what I would do with an extra whole 2 miles of range -- and then I remember -- it's all an estimate, and I go about my day...�
Nov 17, 2015
apacheguy To be honest, if I were placing an order right now I would get an 85D. I'm very interested to see how the whole 90 thing plays out.�
Nov 17, 2015
msnow When many of us started noticing the loss it was pretty hot temperatures. For example I'm in Southern California and I started at 258 @ 90% and 287 @ 100% on 9/16 (one day old car) but lost 1 mile per week after that and the temperature was in the mid 90's. About one month later (still hot temperatures but 7.0 downloaded) I dropped to [email�protected] and [email�protected] Now my car is 2 months old and the temp has been between 65-75 and I'm at [email�protected] and [email�protected] If it's temperature related this doesn't make sense. The good news is I'm not dropping a mile a week anymore more like 1/3. The bad news is I've lost half of the 6% range increase I got for upgrading to the 90D.�
Nov 17, 2015
sorka My 90% on my P85D with 19" wheels is 226 in the 40s vs 226 a few months ago in the 80's. I don't think temperature is effecting my rated range but my estimated range on VT is dropping as the temperature drops.
My 90% when brand new was 227 back in March. I have 12K miles now.�
Nov 17, 2015
Canuck Maybe, but maybe not. It might still be there but just not showing it to you.�
Nov 17, 2015
jdw The 85D would have had losses also ... 258 to 253 is about a 2% loss. While that does seem a little high for 1 month, it is not that far out of line with 85 batteries. In any event, I wouldn't worry unless it continues.�
Nov 17, 2015
msnow Sure hope you're right and it's just a software/algorithm thing.
That was 3 weeks ago and I'm down to 251 now. Someone else upthread is at 250 from 257/258. Loss rate seems to be slowing for me now though. (Fingers crossed)�
Nov 18, 2015
FlasherZ Correction: this was my battery pack replacement due to contactor failure, when the graph corrects upwards.
I posted new graphs with all data points here:
Displayed Range and Seasonality
One conclusion to draw is that some range loss might be due to seasonality.�
Nov 21, 2015
rawn77 It's me the OP again.
So it's been about a week since mo 90% charge was 248 (I was pissed then)
Tonight is another new low; 247.
Now, I'm really getting ...... well you know!
Meh!!!!!�
Nov 21, 2015
Poison Dart Brew Really?? Did everyone do this with there ICE car? NO... There is no technology in the tanks to measure exactly what is left in your tank of petro (although there could be) to see exactly how many miles are left within a few miles. Really when it gets to 40 miles left in a ICE car, I worry that I might run out soon. When I fill a petro car it can vary greatly as much as 50 miles (depending on previous driving). As far as measuring the energy left in a battery, this is even more complicated than measuring a liquid in a tank. People complaining about a few miles of difference in a 90% charge, that can't truly be measured, and when they had an ICE car really didn't pay any attention to the 50 mile difference they may encounter drives me nuts. Ok I am off my soap box now. time for another beer. Cheers!!�
Nov 21, 2015
msnow Poison Dart - you'd have to read the previous threads before jumping to a conclusion.�
Nov 21, 2015
Poison Dart Brew Msnow - I am sorry, I have read so many threads concerning range issues. I probably vented on the wrong thread. I was not responding to any particular individual, but was a general response. I should probably just continue reading and not responding. Thank you for bringing this to my attention.
�
Nov 22, 2015
ArtInCT Hi Guys:
Over on the Tesla Motors Forum (the one under My Tesla), there is an interesting thread known as the Supplement to the Owner's Manual.
If you have not seen or read this thread please do.
What is interesting is that there are a few paragraphs devoted to Estimated Range.
You all need to read those paragraphs.
If you are lazy and want the quick take... cut some black electric tape, and put it over the Estimated Range Number and then ENJOY your car.�
Nov 22, 2015
msnow Hi Art -
I volkerized that thread but couldn't find it. If you can help me by copying the link I would appreciate it. I've been following your electrical project here for weeks now and know that you are close to ordering your Tesla so this may interest you (or not). What's happening here for many is that the ~6% extra range people bought seems to have very quickly dissipated. For dozens a third to half of that range dropped the most in the first few weeks of ownership and continues to go down.
If you're saying that the number can't be trusted I think there's some validity to that but unfortunately many of the apps rely on that number. So real or not it's an issue that you can't just tape over.
I brought this up to my Service Advisor yesterday while my seat belts were being tested and he told me it was indeed unusual and is looking into it but his initial thought was that it is a calibration or leveling issue that will correct over time.
None of this means I'm not enjoying the car. I love it.
UPDATED:
I think I found what you were referring to but it's called "THE OWNER'S MANUAL COMPANION". It's been around a long time under the name "FAQ" by JT. Is this it? THE OWNERS MANUAL COMPANION | Forums | Tesla Motors�
Nov 22, 2015
BertL I know you are concerned. A number of us with 90Ds are keeping an eye on this ...but honestly, I don't get worried about a single digit change. My 90D displayed rated range has proven (see previous posts) to jump +/- 2 miles in a matter of seconds. Literally. As such, I have proven at least to myself that however Tesla is calculating this number it is some sort of rough estimate -- not an absolute. I would encourage you to perhaps become more focused on the trend, not an absolute number. Are you keeping a log of your recently charged 90% rated range, along with date, temperature and firmware level installed on your MS? If not, I'd suggest you should. I'm additionally making a note of the few times I charge to 100% just in case something comes of that as well.
I personally try to go into a more logical mindset when I get concerned about something -- especially one where I can deal with some amount of facts vs getting fixated on "Oh my, isn't this horrible? What if?" sort of things. There is at least one set of data presented thus far that would lead one to believe there may be a correlation to temp and how rated range presents itself -- it's not 90D-specific (battery tech) though. There is perhaps another thought process that these changes flatten out or slow over some period of time -- although I can't say there is enough at least for me to start formulating anything close to a trend. IMHO, longer-term facts are all that will prove what is or is not happening from an owner's POV.
I'm now at day 48 since delivery, and my 90% is down only 1 mile, 255 to 254, (although some days it's down at 253, then goes back up) -- not enough for me to even blink at, except for my having read this thread which heightened my antenna and possible future concern on the subject... My daily mean temp hasn't changed much -- 66F on day of delivery to 70F yesterday, with a low of only 54F (not trying to rub that in!) over that month and a half, but there certainly is no correlation with my limited data points. OTOH, I was just scanning temps in Montreal, and as I'd expect, you've had much wider daily mean change from ~30F to 60F up-and-down-and-back in that same timespan, varying even more widely from day-to-day sometimes than we encounter here in SoCal, with some of your coldest numbers again just yesterday where you are at least from my quick scan of Weather Underground... Hummm.
Hang in there. Try to stay factual.�
Nov 22, 2015
apacheguy A little friendly advice. I would take more interest in the following thread because I have a hunch that it's related:
P90D Supercharging Data - Page 5
I bet the range "loss" is tied to this in some way. My first suspicion is there is some reason Tesla is holding back on the 90 kWh pack. Maybe the new chemistry cannot handle charge rates equivalent to those of the 85 kWh. Or, maybe the answer is more simple. Tesla still hasn't optimized the BMS for the 90 kWh and this could throw off the taper curve as well as the range estimate.
Also, I will note it here, but I don't think it's related. On my old pack, the SpC taper worsened as the pack aged. As the internal resistance of the cells increase they are unable to accommodate the same charge rates.�
Nov 22, 2015
liuping Thursday I did a 100% charge (from 16%), and I got 278 rated miles. That down from 283 I got when I picked up my 90D 2 months ago. It was an inventory car with 800 Miles on it, so it already had some of it's initial loss at that time.
My 90% charges on Friday and Saturday each gave 250, down from 257 just 2 months ago, and exactly what it was before I did the 100% charge. So it looks like going down low and range charging did nothing to improve or recalibrate the range.
I'm already at the range loss I had in my first S85 after almost 2 years and $35k miles. And I'm only a few months in and have only 2256 miles on this one.
I'm hopefully it's just a software issue that will be sorted out, but if t's not, between having to turn of Range Mode to stop the front motor squealing constant and low speed, and the rapid loss of charging range, the 90D's effective range seem like it will be about the same as the S85 after a year to so. Which is very disappointing.�
Nov 22, 2015
ArtInCT Yup that's it...
�
Nov 26, 2015
rawn77 It's me the OP chiming in again.
In my previous post last weekend, I dropped to a 90% 247 (delivered; it was at 258), obviously frustrated.
This morning, not even a full week later, I just didn't lose 1; but 2 more miles to 245 @ 90%
I drove straight to my local dealer to voice my displeasure.
They've agreed to take my car in on December 9th, and if they don't find an obvious cause, will remove my battery pack and send it to Fresno for repair.
They'll install a new 90kw battery pack until mine is returned.
I'm very happy with this turn of events from my SA. :smile:
Will keep you all posted as events unfold.
Happy Thanksgiving!!
Ron�
Nov 26, 2015
Canuck Interesting! I wonder how they can "repair" the range loss? I see the problem as one of the 3 possible causes:
1. The algorithm.
2. Premature degradation.
3. Certain cells have gone bad.
Only #3 can be "repaired". #1 has nothing to do with the pack, and #2 requires a whole new pack. I'm no battery expert so I'm just guessing. It will be interesting to see what happens. Thanks for the update.
And Happy Thanksgiving! to all my American friends.�
Nov 26, 2015
Mike Tuccelli With the 90D -- With 700 miles it's consistent at 256 every time. Just FYI.�
Nov 26, 2015
dsm363 Or change to percentage and be blissfully unaware of any changes. If it's not impacting your trips it shouldn't matter. If there truly is something wrong with it Tesla will pick it up at service or before.�
Nov 26, 2015
msnow It matters because he paid $3k for 6% extra range (about 16 miles) of which all but a few disappeared very quickly. Agree that Tesla will do the right thing.
Great news Ron, have a fun, safe trip.�
Nov 26, 2015
sorka Maybe you can ask them how Tesla overcame the usual reduced cycle life problems associated with adding silicon to the anode. The increased silicon adds capacity by allowing the anode to suck up more lithium ions but at the expense of reduced cycle life. How did they overcome this?�
Nov 27, 2015
apacheguy @sorka - A SvC definitely won't have access to information allowing them to answer the question you posed.�
Nov 27, 2015
brkaus Tesla Engineering is likely very curious about your symptoms.�
Nov 27, 2015
ecarfan Tesla is not going to share that information with the public, or owners, or journalists, or anyone outside of those Tesla employees who have a legitimate reason to know that information.�
Nov 28, 2015
JonG This is the worry and given the track record of uncertainty (it's relatively new technology as much as Teslas optimistic marketing dept) it would be unfortunate to say the least if the change in technology to deliver the longer range actually over time resulted in less range due to increased degradation.�
Nov 28, 2015
JRP3 I'm going to take a wild guess that Tesla and Panasonic have done extensive testing of the new battery chemistry before putting into thousands of vehicles....�
Nov 28, 2015
jerry33 Yeah, I'd be more inclined to think there is a problem with the reporting algorithm.�
Nov 28, 2015
JRP3 Not that there couldn't be something physically wrong with the OP's pack, but I doubt it's a problem with the fundamental chemistry.�
Nov 29, 2015
azax456 Tesla has the ability to reset that algorithm and range calculation which would be like the day you got it. Then, can watch and see if it happens again. If you don't get the fix, request this. It will likely take manager level approval but believe me, they can do it.�
Nov 29, 2015
msnow I hope you're right but how do you know this?�
Nov 29, 2015
AmpedRealtor Battery charge level in a Tesla is measured to a much higher level of accuracy than the remaining gasoline in an ICE vehicle's tank. But even with Tesla's method there are still variations and inaccuracies - but to a much smaller extent than in an ICE vehicle where the angle at which the car sits could affect the gauge.�
Nov 29, 2015
jerry33 This depends on the car. The Prius fuel system, for example, has two inclination sensors in the dash, a fuel temperature gauge, a sending sensor in the auxiliary tank, and a speed sensor.�
Nov 29, 2015
AmpedRealtor And yet my Prius had the most inaccurate gauge of all the cars I've owned. The gauge would barely move for the first couple of hundred miles, but once low the gauge would move very quickly. I ran out of gas twice in my Prius as a result. I've never run out of charge in my Model S.�
Nov 29, 2015
sorka My second generation Prius has the least accurate fuel level indicator of all cars I've owned. My wife has run out of gas over a dozen times. Fortunately most of those times were close enough to a gas station that the battery would get her there.
The fuel tank is a rubber bladder that expands and contracts as fuel is put in or taken out. There is no level float inside the bladder itself. The float is in a smaller tank that sits next to the bladder and only comes into play once the bladder stops putting fuel into the smaller side tank.
When it gets down to one flashing pip, you might run out of fuel in 0 miles(we've run out before the last pip even starts flashing) or you might have 50 miles left. If the temperature changes dramatically, it can be off as much as 100 miles.�
Nov 29, 2015
AmpedRealtor ^^ exactly this! I ran out of gas within 4 miles of the gauge dropping to one pip. This happened on the freeway. All the lights started flashing and I got a big red triangle warning on the dash. I thought my car was going to blow up or something. Fortunately my spouse was on his way home, so asked him to bring me some gas. I am so thankful for having a Model S today!�
Nov 29, 2015
Ingineer OT, but one of the reasons the Prius has trouble reading fuel level is due to the bladder in the tank. (Done to eliminate evaporative emissions)�
Nov 29, 2015
Pete90D Im down to 231 @ 90 and 258 @ 100
Good news is I was finally able to charge to 100%. Whatever glitch there was is fixed but balancing didn't change my numbers at all. I'm gonna call the service center tomorrow and see what can be done�
Nov 29, 2015
msnow I lost 2 or 3 more at both 90 and 100. Please let us know what they tell you. I've also talked to service about this.�
Nov 29, 2015
Pete90D How many miles do you have on your car? I'm at 4400 and 3 months of ownership�
Nov 29, 2015
MarcG I'm really starting to think that firmware 7.0 has something to do with this, whereby temperature does have a strong correlation to the reported rated range.
I've put together the last 130+ data points from my 90% charges (range mode was always ON) since late-January, when VisibleTesla started working for me with the new-at-the-time experimental version, and created the graph below.
I upgraded to firmware 7.0 (2.7.056) as soon as it came out, which is on the evening of 10/14/2015. My 90% charges were still very stable at around 224 miles of rated range, while temperatures were still fairly mild in the San Francisco bay area. So there was no change between 6.2 and 7.0 in calculating rated range in mild temps.
Then in late October, temperatures dropped by at least 10�F and have stayed fairly low. I keep track of my daily commute, and my morning temps had been in the mid- to upper-60's until 10/30, at which point they dropped to lower- to mid-50's. FYI, my service center upgraded my firmware to 2.7.77 on 11/7.
I know some have seen drops unrelated to temperature, but my pack is coming up on one year and over 22,000 miles so it should have stabilized by now (you can see that from mid-May to late-October in my data).
Which reminds me, some of you 90 kWh pack owners are probably seen early drops, which are more common at first, then degradation stabilizes to a lower rate.
But what I'm seeing from my data is highly unusual drops in reported rated range, and it's highly correlated to the recent colder temperatures in my area.
�
Nov 29, 2015
msnow About 1700 miles. Took delivery on 9/15. Originally was 288 & 258 rated miles at 100% & 90% respectively. I was losing about 1 mile per week up until early November. Now it's about a mile every two weeks. Currently at 278 & 249. So I've lost about 10 of the 16 extra miles I was supposed to get with the 6% range upgrade. I'm hoping its a software/algorithm issue and not real degradation as many have speculated on this forum but I'm tracking it and have asked the SC to do the same.�
Nov 29, 2015
wk057 Interestingly enough, my P85D's 100% charge has reverted to where it was 6 months ago at a loss of only 3 miles since new, now at almost 20,000 miles. I charged to 250 miles yesterday at a supercharger and to 224 miles @ 90%. I haven't seen those numbers for a while, with a recent 90% charge being 220 miles and a 100% charge being 245 miles.
Obviously my battery hasn't un-degraded itself, so I'm assuming that a lot of the range drop we see is algorithm related.
Some of it has to be real, though. At about 20,000 miles I should have done about 90 equivalent full charge cycles on the pack. Based on cycle testing graphs I should have lost roughly 6% capacity by now and be down to ~238 miles at 100% and ~214 miles at 90%, but I haven't. I think there are a few different things at play here.
<speculation>
First, at the beginning of life I do not believe that the 0-100% range Tesla allows us to use and is displayed is actually 0-100%, then as the pack degrades a bit, the actual usage range inches closer to the actual 0-100% range of the pack (with some small buffers on the ends of course). I think the algorithm drops miles at a slower rate than actual pack degradation by eating some of the buffer. I have some data that supports this, but not enough to say for certain. If I'm right, though, degradation will go through a couple of phases. Phase 1 would be the initial calibration where miles are lost quickly as the algorithm sorts things out. Phase 2 would be a mostly level plateau where degradation of miles appears very slow. Phase 3 would be when the buffer portion is eaten up and rated miles drop with actual pack degradation from this point, faster than in phase 2.
If correct, and based on some numbers I've seen from my cars of being able to utilize say, 77 kWh worth of power from the 85 pack, lets say 8 kWh of buffer total, 4 of which can be used by the algorithm. So if the pack degrades by 8 kWh, the algorithm can make this appear to be only a 4 kWh degradation in miles. The actual pack capacity would be 78 kWh, and usable pack capacity would be 73 kWh, which would look like a loss of only ~12-13 miles or so. But the next 8 kWh degradation would show as ~26 miles of loss since there would be no buffer to mitigate with.
This is the only way I seem to be able to correlate my data and other cycle life data for these cells with what we see from the range algorithm.
</speculation>�
Nov 29, 2015
MarcG Interesting speculation there Jason. I guess I can try a 100% charge tomorrow, but I have little faith it will restore my "lost" miles again. Your P85D is basically as "old" as mine and has nearly as many miles on the odo, so I'm not sure what could be causing my loss of rated range besides software algorithms. If anything, my area should see less temperature swings (and extremes) than yours...�
Nov 29, 2015
wk057 I'd have probably passed you in miles by now if I hadn't swapped some summer drives for flights. My car sat for nearly a month in total, actually.
I doubt *a* 100% charge would have much effect, except to kick start any balancing circuits for cells that may be a little off, which wouldn't have a measurable effect for several days after at least. One of these days I'm going to get some real voltage reads from the P85D and see where things are really at...�
Nov 29, 2015
apacheguy @wk057 - I'm sure you've seen FlasherZs range numbers (266 rated at 100% for a P85 after 40,000+ miles). AFAIK, he has the best range numbers across the entire Model S fleet with equivalent mileage. Given what you have observed in cell cycle life, is there anyway that those numbers are accurate? IMO, it's pretty unbelievable that he's had 0 capacity fade with that many miles. I don't doubt the data he is collecting and reporting, but I do have serious doubts with the range algo and why it differs so greatly from what others report.�
Nov 30, 2015
andrewket I'm at 221 @ 90% with 15,555 miles on my P85D. I haven't charged to 100% in awhile, but I will this Friday. I've been at 221 for months.�
Nov 30, 2015
NOLA_Mike Mine is similar to yours. I have been slowly dropping and my 90% is now 221 rated miles (Range Mode OFF) at 16,949 miles. Not sure what my 100% is now - it's been a while since I've done a 100% charge (last time I did it was 249 miles but that was at about 12k miles at the Charlotte Supercharger so I could make it to Atlanta without stopping).
Mike�
Nov 30, 2015
MarcG 221 with range mode OFF is equivalent to 224 with it ON. That's exactly where I was seeing my 90% charges for a while until this sudden and steep drop in the last month.
Mike, was your 249 number @100% with range mode ON or OFF?�
Nov 30, 2015
NOLA_Mike I couldn't remember but luckily things are memorialized with posts here and I found my summary of that trip - 249 miles with Range Mode OFF
Not to derail this topic, but I'm still waiting for "redesigned rear shocks" to get rid of the noise in the back - you?
Mike�
Nov 30, 2015
brkaus Does the 70 have the same chemistry as the 90?�
Nov 30, 2015
MarcG Thanks for the info, I'll read the thread you linked. As for the shocks, I'll PM you shortly with some info.�
Nov 30, 2015
NOLA_Mike Cool - and to satisfy my own curiosity I just started a full charge. I'll update what I get in about an hour when it's done.
Mike
Updated - it appears as though my current 100% charge results in 245 miles with Range Mode OFF.�
Nov 30, 2015
MarcG Nice, so that's around 248 miles with Range Mode ON. From my last 100% charge on 11/10, after the cold weather started, I got only 246. I was consistently getting 249 to 251 on 100% charges over the previous several months - see data & charts below.
My 100% charge will complete this afternoon, and I'm expecting something like 244 miles of rated range. So 241 if Range Mode was OFF. Quite a steep drop in such a short amount of time...
�
Nov 30, 2015
liuping There used to be a 3-4 mile difference between the range at 90% when setting Range mode on vs off, but with 7.0, I'm not sure any more. I now only see 1 mile difference if Range mode is on.
That might be part of the reason some people are seeing more of a decline.�
Nov 30, 2015
MarcG Interesting theory, but I don't believe that to be true. As I mentioned upthread, I upgraded from 6.2 to 7.0 on 10/14/2015 and my rated range at 90% charge stayed very consistent (224 miles with Range Mode ON).
I have 10 total data points for charges done on 7.0 version 2.7.056, nine of which are at 90% charge limit and one at 100%. Seven of these show 224 miles and the last two 221. Those two happened after ambient temps dropped a lot.
I'll test it again after my 100% charge is complete, but I'm pretty sure I'll still see a 3-mile difference when toggling between Range Mode ON and OFF.�
Nov 30, 2015
FlasherZ My fear is that I'll figure this out in some strange way - like the car shutting down in 25 degree (F) weather showing 25 miles or something, or a significantly higher Wh/mi number. But I hope not. My Wh/mi stats are the best they've ever been with 7.0 (averaging about 30 Wh/mi less than previous software versions).
For those who haven't seen my posts - I included more data here: Displayed Range and Seasonality
I'm currently in the valley of the seasonal trends, with max range charge going to 263 mi, and 90% charge stopping near 234-236 mi. Once Mar-May rolls around, I'll see how far it comes back up. That thread plots every data point I have in terms of range, so you see any outliers as well.
My data is showing a very, very slight downward trend using linear regression. Marc's data is definitely showing a continual and pronounced downward trend, something that I'm not seeing. I concur that the data plots do look quite different.
(EDIT: recalculated the miles per day number from the linear regression calcs, PEBKAC. When looking at linear regression of the data, I come up with a daily degradation of -0.0043 miles per day, or roughly 1.5 miles per year.)�
Nov 30, 2015
wk057 Real quick, somewhat relevant: Tesla won't sell me a 90 kWh pack unless I give them my old pack for 12% market value
@FlasherZ - Yeah, I find it hard to believe that you've suffered no real degradation after 40,000 miles. Almost certainly an algorithm issue at work here. At 40,000 miles you're at a minimum of about 150 cycles... that should be closer to 10% degradation at the worst case, and at a minimum about 4% or so based on some of my testing. It's either a screw up of the algorithm, or it confirms my earlier theory that Tesla hides some degradation in a small buffer on the 85 packs. At least with the latter you'll actually have the range available... with the former.... I'd be prepared next time you run the pack down below ~10% or so.�
Nov 30, 2015
FlasherZ The only thing I can't figure out is why I don't see degradation occur, yet nearly every other 85 kWh owner does. You would think we'd see the same effects across the fleet, whether "reserved capacity" or not.
Last summer, I ran the pack down to less than 5%, so I know that I can do it (at least to 8 mi).
- - - Updated - - -
NOTE: I edited my post above after redoing the linear regression on my data. It's showing a degradation of 0.0043 miles per day, or ~1.5 miles per year...�
Nov 30, 2015
AWDtsla Did you characterize how much cycle count matters when it isn't a full cycle? From the research I have done it seems to be more about wall clock time spent in very high or very low SoC and at certain temperatures, not the amount of cycles that matters. The battery test sheets from Panasonic, etc, don't seem to take this into account, they simply cycle as fast as possible not controlling for wall clock time.�
Nov 30, 2015
wk057 Time spent at high and low SoC definitely has an impact. But the cycling itself, at any point in the cycle, has a discernible effect on the capacity of the cell as electrolyte slowly gets lost during the chemical process. This is pretty constant across the inner SoC range, and slightly more accelerated near the ends. My one test I've had running has been simulating "driving" by discharging for a bit, then charging (regen) for a moment, then a ramp up again followed by a level discharge rate, etc. It had about 4% degradation at what I would estimate would be 40,000 miles of "driving." (10% to 90% SoC range)�
Nov 30, 2015
andrewket PM me too?�
Nov 30, 2015
brkaus Does the 70 have the same chemistry as the 90? Is chemistry where they achieved the additional capacity or more cells?�
Dec 1, 2015
apacheguy Pretty sure the 70 has the same cells as the 85 and the former 60 kWh. The 60 had spacers in the pack and I'm guessing they just filled those in to get to 70.�
Dec 5, 2015
max35111 Guys, on the same topic, I just received my 90d on Friday and the 90% is only 380km/237 miles!
It looks ridiculously low...
Is there a chance the mileage will ramp up with the first few charges or I should raise the concern right away?�
Dec 6, 2015
Oyvind.H I`m waiting for a 90D and find this thread a bit concering. If 85Ds have 400km at 100%, the 90D should hve 424km at 100%. My new S85 had about 400km at 100% back in 2013, but it seems to me as if new 85Ds have more than 400km at 100% when new?�
Dec 6, 2015
BertL Update: 62 days of S90D ownership.
Detail in attached: View attachment Rated Range.pdf
- High 90% Rated Range of 255 miles at delivery; Low of 250; A few minutes ago it was 251 after topping-off to 90% at midnight. ...My 90% Rated Range has varied up-and-down 1-2 miles on any given day, and one time I've caught the number varying the same amount up-and-down within seconds via my Tesla App. I still don't have any correlation to temperature as others have suggested, although it remains moderate (thank you) here in SoCal compared to others.
- I've only trip-charged to 100% twice with a Rated Range High of 282; Low of 278.
OPINION ONI still believe Tesla is doing some sort of real-time guesstimate when it comes to Rated Range, and really needs to prioritize technical refinement of their 90 kWh-battery algorithm and how that number is presented, to remove some of this increasing concern with a number that varies as much as it presently does. 90kWh Owner's discretely paid $3K for the "Range Upgrade" option to provide 6% (aka 16 miles) more than an 85kWh model. As such, right or wrong, I believe we may be even more concerned with perhaps premature loss of range because it's easy to do the math as to what our decision may have cost us every time Rated Range at a particular SoC changes. Tesla needs to address this technically, as well as marketing-wise, to establish better owner expectations.OPINION OFF
?�
Dec 6, 2015
jerry33 Ideal range appears to be much more stable (at least in the S85) than rated range because they don't seem to mess with it as much. I'm not sure why anyone uses rated range to determine degradation. Rated range is a reasonable number for driving, but not for battery state.�
Dec 6, 2015
msnow First you should triple check your slider to make sure it's set at 90%. Charge it again tonight after you have driven some miles. Keep a log and if it's still significantly less than what you expect (256/257) then definitely call Tesla.
@BertL, I'm exactly at the same point you are (249-250 @90% and 279-281 @ 100%) and I engaged Tesla. First they tried to convince me that the 6% range increase should only get me to where I'm at so I had to take the Service Technician through the math (270 rated miles for the 85D times 6% for the range upgrade equals 16.2 more miles before he agreed to escalate. I have a service appointment for 12/17 to check into this and a few other small issues. I'll keep everyone updated. I have to say it did piss me off that they tried to convince me it was within specs with fuzzy math.�
Dec 6, 2015
msnow I don't understand this logic. Losing a mile a week in rated range is saying something right? Whether it's degradation or an algorithm issue in the end you can't drive as far as you could the week before. Also, if you go through this thread you'll see the 90D people with brand new cars have lost about the same or more rated range in 2 months than the 85 pack people did in a year or two.�
Dec 6, 2015
jerry33 If you are also losing ideal range, that's correct. If ideal range is more-or-less constant and rated range is declining...�
Dec 6, 2015
apacheguy In my experience, every loss of a rated mile correlates to a loss of an ideal mile.�
Dec 6, 2015
msnow I don't remember what ideal range was when I brought the car home and I can't find it on Tesla's site so I can't measure it. I found the below which doesn't list the 90D and it doesn't correlate to anything I'm aware of.
Model S | Tesla Motors�
Dec 6, 2015
Matias I had 407 kms on my 85D with range mode when car was new.�
Dec 6, 2015
tfung Any chance that weather has something to do with all this? we are going into the winter months, and some of you do live in very cold countries/states, etc... seems normal for some of the low ranges you all are reporting....�
Dec 6, 2015
msnow I'm in Southern California and my range loss started in mid-September when it was in the 90's so for me and a few others in this thread that's not it (wish it were though).�
Dec 7, 2015
TexasEV No, if it's an algorithm issue it does not affect how far you can actually drive. It just means the displayed range is less accurate.�
Dec 7, 2015
msnow Right "if" it's an algorithm issue.�
Dec 7, 2015
Mike Tuccelli Got 90D Nov 12 with 256 range. After 1,400 miles its 255.�
Dec 8, 2015
SR-71-BlackBird My 2014 S85 had 310 km at 80%, my new 90D 340 km at 80%.�
Dec 8, 2015
cinergi 90D Sep 29th 2000 miles. 256 at 90 new now 254.�
Dec 8, 2015
SkinnyWeasel Thought I would provide an update that my decline has continued on. My new morning 90% charge for the last two or three days has been 228-230. I am now convinced that degradation rate of 90 battery is faster than than 85. I will be raising again with service department when I take car in Friday for back seat rattle. Not feeling great about paying extra for 90 range and having watched it waste away in first 2-3 months of ownership when 85 would take 2-3 years to lose this much range.�
Dec 8, 2015
msnow Thanks. Agree completely.�
Dec 8, 2015
apacheguy These are great numbers in comparison to the others. Wondering how to explain the variability.�
Dec 8, 2015
msnow On average it's lower by 1 or 2 miles at new and better (higher) by 3 or 4 than the others. Could be its lagging because it's a couple of weeks newer or the issue isn't universal.�
Dec 9, 2015
ArtInCT Has the OP RAWN77 had his service appointment and results yet? We have not heard from him and I thought that his appointment was due... RAWN77??? Where are you??�
Dec 9, 2015
Oyvind.H Hmmm. Should I regret paying extra for the 90 version?
Tesla will hear about it if the range plummets like this. My old S85 had some range decrease over two years, but a decent part of it came through new software.
Not steady rapid decrease. Why pay extra if the extra range is gone within a year?�
Dec 9, 2015
JRP3 That would be my guess since some 90's don't seem to be affected.�
Dec 9, 2015
ArtInCT JRP3:
Take a look at the geographic locations of those who are seeing loss and see if you notice any correlation. I am not suggesting there is one, but that really needs to be taken into account. Also FLASHERZ has posted an informative thread on the effects of seasonality on rated range with his historic observed data in graphic form...
I have PM'ed RAWN77 to fill us in on his service center visit...�
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