Aug 27, 2012
Nvbob Anyone running Toyo Proxes 4 pluses? Our present rears are about to the wear bars and the pluses are being recommended. They do come with a 50k tread warranty.
Anyone?�
Aug 27, 2012
strider Looks like they are brand new - didn't even know about them until you posted. As I posted above I like the regular Proxes 4 so I would say go for it and let us know!
�
Sep 4, 2012
mshobe I got quoted $167.89 for the rear fitment on the new Proxes 4+ by my local Les Schwab. When comparing this to $354 for the AD07s on Tire Rack, it's difficult for me _not_ to strongly consider taking that plunge. I'm a daily driver, 4-season commuter, and track days are mostly a fiction for me. I have a feeling these will handle my situation well without compromising traction control or a whole ton of range efficiency �*but I'm willing to be disabused of that notion.
Also, I suppose I'd dial up alignment settings that modestly favor understeer - if I'm giving up grip, I'd rather scrub the nose than break the tail loose.�
Sep 4, 2012
strider I have a base Roadster and w/ the stock suspension and alignment settings the car will still understeer w/ Proxes 4's all the way around (Installed Sport front size). Handling dynamics don't feel like they've changed, there's just less grip in general.�
Sep 5, 2012
frequencydip I would not reccomend putting Toyo Proxies plus on a roadster, the tire has a UTQG of 560 A A compared to the AD07 of 180 AA A. This is significantly less traction. The car already under steers, can easily over steer when maximum power is applied and is known to have braking issues when the brakes are cold. Is saving a few hundred dollars worth risking totaling the car?
Updated:
I sometime forget there are allot of Roadster owners who are not sports car enthusiasts, that being said if you do not drive the roadster hard and drive it diligently lower traction tires are probably fine. Just remember to take it easy and be safe.�
Sep 5, 2012
Nvbob We put the Proxes 4 plus tires on last week and so far we have about 400 miles with no issues. No TC problems. Steering under acceleration doesn't feel any different (we typically do not do maximum power accelerations). Braking doesn't seem to be any different. The tires are no noisier than other tires we have tried. We travel about 60 miles daily to work over some fairly curvy roads from about 5000 feet to about 8000 feet in elevation (highway 207 up to Tahoe).
So, no issues yet but thanks for the heads up on the traction!�
Sep 6, 2012
strider Well, be advised that the treadwear numbers are assigned by the manufacturer and therefore comparing ratings of different manufacturers isn't exact. Manufacturers are regulated such that they may not overstate the treadwear number but they may understate it. Therefore, Yokohama's AD07 could really be a 300 but because people think lower numbers are "stickier" then Yoko puts 180 on the tire. Also, that number is a "treadwear" number and NOT a "traction" number. I have not found the Proxes 4 to have only 32% of the traction of the AD07's. The letters correspond to wet traction and the Proxes are less at an "A" vs a "AA" for the Yoko's.
I have never been able to power oversteer the car with the TC on with the AD07's or Toyo's.
The braking issue has exactly NOTHING to do w/ the tires. Pads are glazing, contaminated, whatever you want to call it such that they aren't grabbing the calipers. When I've noticed the braking issue I can stand on the pedal and not get ABS to engage. If the problem was lack of grip from the tires then ABS would be engaging because the tires were sliding. That is not the case w/ what we've seen here.
Bottom line is that at speeds that you should be driving on public roads the Proxes 4's work just fine. I have 10k miles on mine and I have no regrets. If you want to go all "High School Harry" on public roads then you'll want stickier tires. You're also an idiot. If you track your car you will definitely want something stickier.�
Sep 7, 2012
frequencydip Tires is one of the major factors in the Roadsters braking issue. The Roadster has the tires designed for the Elise yet outweighs the elise by 800Lb. This adds to the Roadsters lack of sufficient traction under extreme braking due to weight and balance. I can fully lock the tires when braking at 60Mph to 0 and come to a screeching halt with cold brakes on smooth pavement. The Proxies with the lower "A" Traction Grade will cover more distance to come to a complete stop in an hard braking situation. Sometimes 4 feet is all the difference between making contact with another object...�
Sep 7, 2012
strider Then you're not experiencing the braking "issue" that we've been talking about and trying to solve w/ the Carbotech pads. In that scenario, the brake pads are not grabbing, biting, whatever enough to stop the car in a reasonable time/distance. This has nothing to do w/ the tires. While no Schumacher, I can tell the difference between braking distance being caused by lack of tire grip vs lack of brake pad grip. All of the close calls I've had have not been because of tires, period.
I can fully lock the tires when braking at 60Mph to 0 and come to a screeching halt with cold brakes on smooth pavement in my Jeep Liberty too. Based on your logic I should go out and put DOT race rubber on it. In fact, you clearly aren't familiar w/ the concept of a compromise so why are you even running AD07/08's? If 4 feet could make all the difference you should be running A048's then.
Likewise, a LOT of cars weigh more than a Roadster yet few wear even A rated tires. So then based on your reasoning 98% of all cars would just smash into one another every day because they wouldn't be able to stop. That's just not happening. Finally, I'm saving $800/set for tires that will easily last twice as long as the AD07's and maybe 3 times. So we're talking thousands of dollars in savings, not hundreds.
Bottom line is that Proxes 4's have more grip than nearly all tires on road-going cars today so if you use your Roadster to drive on public roads you will be fine. Also, some folks don't live in Sunny Southern California. Nvbob lives in Reno/Tahoe. It gets COLD there. AD07/08's are a summer tire, not designed for cold, snow, etc. If you want to spend more for grippier tires be my guest, but don't fear-monger others that they're going to careen off the side of a mountain or slide under a semi because they chose an "ultra high-performance" tire instead of an "extreme performance" tire.�
Sep 10, 2012
jordanthompson I just got off the phone with Bart at Tire Rack. He told me the Dunlop Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec is stickier than the AD07 and is only $150. The treads look (nearly) identical to the AD07. Anyone have any experience with these?�
Sep 10, 2012
Doug_G I have them on my S2000. Good autocross/track tire, good for street too. Highly recommended. Caveat: have not tried them on Roadster.�
Sep 10, 2012
frequencydip @ Strider
I think we are talking about two different tires. You appear to be talking about your experience with the "Toyo Proxies 4", Nvbob asked about "Toyo Proxies 4 Plus" these tires have very different characteristics. If we used the minimum rating from the traction grade the Toyo Proxies 4 score 0.54 g force on asphalt while the Toyo Proxies 4 Plus scores 0.47 g's. The Toyo Proxies 4 is on par with the AD07 and the Toyo Proxies 4 Plus is not in the same category. There are plenty of tires others have identified as good replacements for the AD07 that are all season tires. The price of the Proxies 4 and Proxies 4 plus are the same so your not going to save money only give up traction.�
Sep 10, 2012
hcsharp Good find. You can't help but wonder if somebody didn't copy the tread pattern...
It's a little heavier than the AD07. I don't know if that would make a noticeable performance difference.
I see they make a 205/50 R16 for that tire. I wonder if it would fit on the front of the Roadster.�
Sep 10, 2012
strider @frequencydip: Thanks for the explanation. I had assumed the tires would be similar or that the "Plus" tires would be better in every way (I mean come on, they're "Plus"!). I'm interested to hear Nvbob's reports as time goes on.�
Sep 10, 2012
dsm363 I'm coming up on replacing the rear tires again soon (have AD07s). Having been following this thread so am thinking about AD08s for the rears since people seem to be happy with the AD07s front/AD08s rear combo. Looks like the price difference between the two for the rear tires is down to $50 for each tire.�
Sep 10, 2012
Doug_G TireRack.com shows the difference at $60 (correction $154).
My AD08's appear to be wearing rather better than the AD07's did.�
Sep 10, 2012
hcsharp That's interesting. I can see why it might be different between Canada and Texas but why is the difference only $42 per tire when I go to Tire Rack?
AD08: $199.
Direzza S Z S S: $157.
Michelin PSS: $179.
- - - Updated - - -
Doug what kind of treadwear did you get on your S2000 compared to other tires? I know, not the Roadster but might give us some idea...�
Sep 10, 2012
Nvbob Here's a quick update on the Proxes 4 Plus'. We now have about 4-500 miles on the tires and our first impression is that the traction is about the same as all our previous tires. They do "feel" different - at our normal speed, the front steering feels "lighter" (easier to turn). We still have the original AD07's on the front. I am not sure of the correct terminology to use to describe our experiences so far. I have also noticed that they are a little noisier that the AD07's and our previous tires (generic Les Schwab tires).�
Sep 10, 2012
Doug_G I think you misunderstood. I meant that AD08 is about $60 (correction $154) cheaper than AD07 at TireRack.
I don't think my results would be considered typical. Since I bought the S2000 in April, I have put about 3300 km (2000 mi) on it. I started with brand-new Star Specs and Hawk HP+ brake pads. As of this weekend the front brake pads are done, the front tires have about 50% wear, and the rears about 20%.
It's not as bad as it sounds. The S2000 is my track car. The tires are actually holding up amazingly well considering what I've been doing to them. :biggrin:
Edit: a little off-topic and just for fun, here's what I've been doing to them...
It occurs to me that part of the reason that my AD08s are lasting better is that I now have A048's for the occasions when I take the Roadster to the track, e.g.:
I got the S2000 in part because the nearby track isn't willing to install chargers, despite my offering to cover all costs.�
Sep 11, 2012
hcsharp You must be paying very different prices in Canada. The difference that I see is $155 per tire.
AD08: $199.
AD07: $354.
That's very useful. Thanks! The Star Specs were thought to be very loud in a lot of reviews.�
Sep 11, 2012
dsm363 You're right. When I looked at first, I looked at the 265 size which is $299. That's interesting they make the 245/45-17 for $100 cheaper.
The AD08s are looking a lot better now if they make zero difference for street driving (non-track use).�
Sep 11, 2012
Doug_G Sorry, you're right - I read the wrong line. In fact the AD08 rears are $199 versus $354. I'll edit my earlier posts.
And yes, if you go to a Canadian source the price sucks. I've been ordering my tires from TireRack in the USA.�
Sep 11, 2012
strider Thanks for the feedback Bob. Didn't realize you still had the Yoko's up front. Could be an interesting compromise to keep stickier tires up front and cheaper tires in the rear...�
Sep 11, 2012
jordanthompson I am confused again... Tirerack has this comparison:
Consumer Survey Results By Category
Now I am starting to like the Bridgestone Potenza RE 11's:
BridgestonePotenza RE-11
Looks like they are better all the way around when compared with the Yokohama's and they are $212. Anyone have any experience with these tires? I saw someone was asking about them earlier in this thread, but I didn't see any positive or negative feedback.�
Sep 12, 2012
jordanthompson Here is my conversation with Nolan at Tire Rack. I am really getting close to pulling the trigger on these Bridgestone Potenza RE 11's...
Thank you for choosing Tire Rack. A product specialist will be with you shortly.
You are now chatting with 'Nolan'
Jordan: Hi there, I have the Yokohama AD07 on the back right now, but am looking for a more cost-effective solution.
Nolan: Hello Jordan, how may I help you?
Jordan: I was considering the AD08's but someone suggested the Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec
Jordan: The car is similar to the Lotus Elise, but is about 30% heavier at 3000 lbs.
Jordan: I was told that the Dunlops are actually stickier than the AD08's. What can you tell me about their weight-handling ability?
Nolan: I can help with that
Nolan: Both tires have a focus on the dry grip and are not going to be the best in the wet. Do you have the Yokohama AD07 on the front and back currently?
Jordan: I don't track the car, and most of the time I don't drive too aggressively (but I do like to accelerate from the light from time to time ;-)
Jordan: As far as I know, the AD07 is the only tire available on the front.
Jordan: I live in Florida, so it doesn't get too cold here, but it does rain. Normally, on rainy days, the car stays in the garage, but I do get caught in the rain from time to time.
Nolan: The Dunlop is a great tire and one of the top rated. What is the front and rear sizes you are running?
Jordan: 225/45R17 in the back and 175/55R16 in the front
Nolan: one moment while I take a look
Nolan: You are correct, the only matching are the Yokohama. We don't recommend mixing tires as it will cause more unpredictability in the handling of the vehicle. It can be done, but not recommended
Jordan: I have read this also. A lot of other owners are going with the AD08's in the back as they are significantly cheaper and give a little longer life. I was told the Dunlop's are even better at traction and life expectancy. The problem, as I understand it, is because the Roadster is so much heavier in the back and has such incredible torque, it eats the rear tires (6-7K miles, if you are lucky!)
Jordan: Another issue is that the Roadster uses a sensor on the front wheels to monitor rotation. If the rear wheels rotate too fast, it engages traction control. As long as the rear wheels are more sticky than the front, I think this will be OK.
Jordan: Sorry - too fast in relation to the rear wheels.
Jordan: Can the Dunlops support the extra weight?
Nolan: Yes, this can handle the weight
Jordan: And would you agree that the Dunlop's are stickier than the AD08's and may last longer?
Nolan: They will both be a very stick compound. The AD08's currently hold our track record in the dry. The Dunlop
Nolan: The Dunlop would be better in the wet
Jordan: Ahhh so how "close" are they in dry and wet conditions?
Nolan: Click here for the survey ratings
Jordan: So if I'm reading this right, the Yoko's are a little more comfortable, better in steering response, quieter, and have a better treadwear?
Jordan: As far as steering response goes, if they are in the back, this does not apply, right?
Jordan: How much are the Potenza's?
Jordan: When I go to the Potenza page, there is no price.
Nolan: one moment and I will take a look
Nolan: The RE-11 is $212 per tire for the rear size
Jordan: I assume they don't have one for the fronts?
Nolan: Unfortunately they do not
Jordan: how do the AD07's and RE-11's compare as far as stickiness and composition?
Nolan: The RE-11 is going to be the stickiest tire with the most grip available for a street tire.
Jordan: And they can handle the weight also?
Nolan: Yes
Jordan: Excellent! I am posting in the Tesla forums now to see if there is anyone with experience with these tires. I know there are many who are using different front/back tires. This may be the solution for me. Thanks very much for your help. When I go to purchase them, should I mention your name?
Nolan: Please do and I will be able to monitor your order as well. If you have any further questions, feel free to contact me at 1-800-428-8355, option 3, ext 173 or [email�protected]�
Sep 12, 2012
dsm363 Thanks. So he's saying the AD08s don't do well in the rain or both AD07s and AD08s don't do well in the rain? He also recommended against mixing front/back tires but they all say that I guess.
Dave�
Sep 12, 2012
jordanthompson He was talking specifically about the AD08's and the Dunlop Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec's not doing as well in the rain. According to their chart, the Bridgstone's are best in nearly all categories.�
Sep 12, 2012
Doug_G The AD08's are definitely quite good in dry conditions, although not nearly as good as real "stickies" like the A048. They are decent in the wet, like the AD07's. The A048's absolutely suck in the rain.
In my somewhat limited experience - one autocross day in the rain w/ the S2000 - the Direzza Sport Z1 Star Specs are pretty good in wet conditions. In dry conditions they are excellent - I've done 3 full day track events, 2 evening track events, and a bunch of autocross days and not only did they grip really well, they're still in great shape after all that abuse (enough abuse that my S2000's front pads are shot).
I have Michelin Pilot Super Sports on my Inifiniti. I recently ran it at Le Circuit Mont Tremblant because my S2000 didn't meet the bimmer club's (over-the-top) convertible rules. It was dry the first day, and they did very well considering the weight of the car. It rained buckets the second day and they still did a great job. In fact my instructor said that's what he uses for his rain tires.�
Sep 21, 2012
hcsharp Michelin Pilot Super Sports update
Today I replaced my Michelin Pilot Super Sports after only 5,000 miles. They were past the wear bars. Michelin honored the 15,000 mile warranty and I only had to pay a small fraction of the new tires. Although I was disappointed with the tread life, these tires had performance comparable to the AD07, better when wet, for about half the price. Actually if you count the warranty comp and assume I'll get 5k out of the replacements, they work out to about 1/5th the price of the AD07s per mile.�
Sep 21, 2012
strider Interesting. I wonder how long they'll let you keep that up (getting 66% off due to tread warranty)?�
Sep 22, 2012
jordanthompson OK - you have my attention!
Here are some questions:
How do you use your car?
Do you notice anything strange (from traction control mostly) about dissimilar tires?
Do they squeal or chirp at all?
Are they about the same noise level as the AD07's?�
Sep 22, 2012
wycolo > Today I replaced my Michelin Pilot Super Sports after only 5,000 miles. They were past the wear bars. Michelin honored the 15,000 mile warranty [hcsharp]
LOL!! I just put on the same, but Discount Tire gave me a 30k mile warranty. Guess I'll have to run these down to the steel mesh, fishtailing & sparks flying at every lauch. Its the least I can do in the face of such confidence.
--�
Sep 22, 2012
Doug_G How so? The tread life sounds better than what I've been getting with Yokohamas.
Face it, any soft compound tire intended for high performance cars are not going to have high tread life, especially when we beat the crap out of them with an electric motor.�
Sep 22, 2012
Jaff I just replaced my AD 07's with the AO 48's...noisier, but more fun on dry pavement...when it's wet,
I just scale back my driving aggressiveness...not that hard to do and more than a fair tradeoff for the improved dry weather performance imo...�
Sep 22, 2012
hcsharp The warranty says you can only do it once. I don't know if that means I can pay full price for a new set and do it again when they wear out. All I know is I cannot do it again with the pair that's on the car now.
I don't think I drive all that aggressively but once in a while I floor it and occasionally take corners fast. Never on a track (yet!). Not a problem with AD07's on the front but I have a version 2.5. No squeal or chirp (with TC on). Acceleration is comparable to the AD07, better in rain, range is slightly better with the MPSS. I do notice a slight difference on initial turn-in but ultimate grip is virtually the same as the AD07. The MPSS noise level is lower on a smooth road, louder on rough roads, and louder when you hit things like expansion joints.
I got better tread life than with the Yokos too. My expectation, and consequent disappointment was based on the 15k warranty.�
Sep 22, 2012
Doug_G Just keep an eye on the wear. When your rears get low on tread these tires hydroplane at a blink of an eye, especially at 100 kph. Also they have terrible rolling resistance when the temperature drops close to freezing. But for grip nothing beats them on hot dry pavement!�
Sep 22, 2012
hcsharp Discount tire doesn't warranty anything. Michelin does. And if you read the fine print it's only 15k miles. A couple other points: Most tire shops won't handle warranty claims if you buy the tires online. A Michelin dealer has to be able to measure the tread depth in three places across each tire to ensure that your alignment is good. So if you run them until they're bald, you have no warranty claim. You also have to make sure the installer signs your mileage log when installed to verify the odo.�
Sep 22, 2012
btown I just checked the tread wear on my MPSS and I'm down to 2/16. Based on previous measurements I'm predicting I will hit the wear bands at around 7K miles. I got 6K out of the last pair of AD08s and I wore those well past when they initially hit the wear bands, so it looks like I'll get somewhere between 1K - 1.5K more on the MPSS than the AD08s. I replaced my initial pair of AD07s at 7K, but those were pretty far past the wear bands as well. Looking forward to seeing how the warranty works out on the MPSS when I replace them (probably not until next spring).�
Oct 23, 2012
Doug_G Okay, my AD08 rears are spent. They lasted 8,500 km (5400 miles). That's about 50% better than the AD07s.
My (original) AD07 fronts have approximately 20,000 km on them (they were off the car for about 10,000 km while I was using T1Rs) and they still have plenty of wear left.
(Yeah, I have a heavy foot.)�
Oct 23, 2012
hcsharp Are you going with another set of AD08s?
�
Oct 23, 2012
Doug_G Yes. In fact TireRack just shipped me another pair of AD08's.�
Oct 24, 2012
dsm363 Since the Roadster is now more of a weekend car for me, I'll probably go with the AD08s since they are cheaper too. Are you pretty happy with the traction on the AD08s vs. the 07's in rain as well? I think they are supposed to be better anyway. I got 7,000 miles on my AD07s so don't drive it as hard. Still have a few thousand miles to go on the fronts at 14,000 miles (6mm tread depth I think).�
Oct 24, 2012
smorgasbord I'll say. Nobody accuses me of driving too slowly. I wore my rear AD07s out in under 6000 miles. The AD08s I replaced them with have gone over 8000 miles and still have tread left.
When these wear out I'll consider the MPSS. Getting 2 for the price of 1 seems like a good deal, if the reports that we're not sacrificing performance are true.�
Oct 24, 2012
Doug_G Yes, if anything they are better in rain than the AD07s.
Those are indeed excellent tires; I have them on my G37. I guess you're thinking of putting them only on the rear?�
Oct 24, 2012
smorgasbord Well, I haven't looked at the fronts lately, so it is possible that I'll need to replace both. I'm just always watching the rears. I guess you're not recommending replacing only the rears with MPSS, but also the fronts?�
Oct 24, 2012
dsm363 Do they make the front tires in the correct size? I thought the only tires that fit the front wheels exactly were the AD07s.�
Oct 25, 2012
strider MPSS's aren't available in either front size. When I wear out my Proxes 4's I'm going to try the MPSS on the rear as I'm nervous about the Proxes 4+ not having enough grip. I'll leave the Proxes 4's on the front.�
Nov 19, 2012
smorgasbord FWIW, C&D did a tire comparison on a Nissan Leaf recently, and the Yokohama AD08s gave the same skidpad performance (0.89 g) as the A048s. So, if you're not tracking the car I don't think it makes sense to get the 048s.�
Nov 19, 2012
Doug_G I find that hard to believe. My Roadster definitely turns much better with A048's. Mind you, they were doing the test with a Nissan Leaf... not exactly designed for high G maneuvers. Maybe that neutralizes tire differences!�
Nov 19, 2012
smorgasbord Well, they got a 0.18 increase in skidpad g-forces just with which tires they used, so hard to say tires didn't make a difference.
From reading the story (not just watching the video, fun as it is), the 048s would seem to hold up better at higher temps and when pushed super-hard. As I'm sure you know, the problem we consumers have with comparing tires is that we end up comparing a worn out previous tire to a new tire. So even if you replace your tires with the same model, the results seem impressive.�
Nov 19, 2012
Doug_G Yes, but I've compared AD07's with lots of tread remaining to brand-new A048's, because I now have two sets of wheels. And I was doing autocross. With the AD07's I get a lot of push in the corners, even having dialed down the understeer via the adjustable suspension. With the A048's it's like I was driving an entirely different car, and it makes a significant difference in cornering speed.�
Nov 19, 2012
smorgasbord On a separate note, what settings do you recommend for the adjustable suspension for spirited curvy road (not track) use?�
Nov 19, 2012
Doug_G Front loose, rear middle. 7 front, 8 rear.�
Nov 20, 2012
jerry33 That's certainly true, but it's also true that the tires may have been upgraded silently. So they could be impressive because they are better.�
Nov 20, 2012
hcsharp I find it interesting that many of you have reported 7 to 12k miles on your original rear AD07s, mostly on the west coast. But almost nobody on the east coast ever got more than 3 - 4k before they were at the wear bars. It doesn't sound like we're driving much different than the left coast. Either they're making the Yoko AD07s softer now than they were a couple years ago, or something else is different in the East.�
Nov 21, 2012
strider Road composition? You all are maniacal leadfoots?�
Nov 21, 2012
hcsharp OK, Boston has a reputation. But we're known to be more civil (with the A-pedal) here in VT. We don't even have a single stop light in our town. So I don't think that explains it. I think it's roundabouts. The most insane form of traffic control ever invented.�
Nov 26, 2012
jordanthompson So your right tires wear faster? :tongue:
Chevy Chase in Europe: European Vacation - Roundabout - YouTube�
Dec 3, 2012
smorgasbord OK, I need new rear tires again, so I spent another hour in this thread.
I'm thinking to get the AD08s again and be done. I've gotten about 10K on the AD08s compared to not even 6K on the AD07s, but that's obviously not scientific.
I'm tempted to get the Michelin Pilot Super Sports, but reviews here peg them as not quite a sticky in the dry. One question: Tire rack also lists "Michelin Pilot Sports" tires in 2 variations:
MPSS
MPS PS2
MPS PS2 ZP
The last ones are run-flat. They weigh a couple pounds more than the Yokos, but 4 lbs more than the regular MPSS. The MPS PS2 don't have the treadwear the MPSS's have, which is sometimes an indicator of better performance.
Anyone compare the Yokos (AD07 or AD08) to the Michelin Pilot Sports PS2?�
Dec 3, 2012
Doug_G I have MPSS for my Infiniti. They are good all-round summer performance tires, quite good in dry and wet conditions (but terrifying on snow). Not sure if they're as sticky as the Yokohamas.
Personally I'd go with the AD08's. Seem to work just as well as the AD07's and are a good bargain.�
Dec 4, 2012
dsm363 I'm going to try out the AD08s on the rear. You're happy with the traction with AD07 front/AD08 rears it sounds like and saves $300. I'm mainly looking for no significant loss in traction (safety, not racing) and wet weather traction. Thanks.�
Dec 4, 2012
Doug_G As far as I can tell there is no substantive difference in performance between the AD07 and AD08. I think the AD08 might even have a slight edge in the wet.
One thing I have noticed with the AD08 is sometimes if you launch on bumpy pavement you'll hear a tiny "chirp". I don't recall the AD07's ever doing that, but they would also slip a little under the same conditions.�
Dec 4, 2012
hcsharp The MPS PS2 varieties have significantly higher rolling resistance than the MPSS. It's not just because they weigh more. In fact I am able to get slightly more range on the MPSS than the AD07, especially if it's wet. There is a European auto magazine that tested all of them for rolling resistance and Consumer Reports tested them for mileage. Both reported the MPSS out-performing the AD08 in this regard.�
Dec 9, 2012
dsm363 Have the new AD08 rears in my house. Amazing how great new tires look just sitting there. Just have to get them on the Roadster and will report back. Thanks for the advice. My fronts only have about 5,000 more miles on them. Really wish Yoko would just make AD08s in that size but that won't happen.�
Dec 9, 2012
jory has anyone tried the MPS PS2 ZP? after having had one flat tire, the lack of a spare of any sort makes the run-flat idea somewhat appealing. i'd be willing to trade some rolling resistance for increased peace of mind.�
Dec 31, 2012
strider Just ordered a set of MPSS from Costco for $174/tire. Not sure if this was posted before but they cut the treadlife warranty in half if the tires are difference size front/rear. So may get something for the warranty but got 14k out of my Toyo's (although the right tire is bald) w/ the same 300 treadwear so expect the same from the Michelins.�
Jan 7, 2013
jordanthompson How did the spare-in-a-can work? I always stare at it out of the corner of my eye whenever I open the trunk...�
Jan 7, 2013
Tesla 940 I took someone's advice
I had not heard much good about the can crap and took someone's advice and purchased the portable/recharable aircompressor. I also carry a tire plug kit. In fact I just used the tire plug kit on a friend's tire and it seemed to work fine. At an absolute minimum, probably a better chance of getting you home/tire dealer than the can crap.�
Jan 8, 2013
frequencydip I use the tire plugs all the time, they work great and you can still use the tire until its worn, the crap in the can you have to change the tire regardless of remaning tread life.�
Jan 8, 2013
smorgasbord I just passed 11,000 miles on my Yoko 08 rears. Time for new tires. Just ordered another set from TireRack to be drop-shipped to Menlo.
Also, with just over 17K miles, my front Yoko 07s are close to needing replacing. Will do those at same time, but Tesla's price with installation is slightly better. Tesla charges a bunch to install TireRack tires now ($100 for 2!), but it's a convenience/peace of mind thing with me. Tesla doesn't sell the 08s.
At any rate, with over 11K miles on 08s at $212 each delivered, I see no reason to switch to anything else. I may not be pushing the car as hard as when I first got it (but I probably am, maybe I'm just getting used to brain-freeze acceleration), but then again I also did a Laguna Seca track day on those 08s, which I hadn't done on the first set of rears. In my experience, the 08s are better than the 07s in terms of traction, wear, and cost, and what's been reported on the MPSS's doesn't make me think of switching.
BTW, FWIW Tesla told me that Roadsters with the "New Tires" calibration thing on the VDS (v2.0 & 2v.5, not v1.5,) can handle the 08 replacement for the 07 better since it can deal with larger diameter differences than the v1.5's automatic calibration. This has probably been covered before, but apparently you will lose some traction using 08s instead of 07s on a v1.5. There is mention of this on the 1.5 tire thread, so I guess it's confirmed.�
Jan 9, 2013
Timothy �
Feb 17, 2013
Fabrizio This used to be true, but the newer spares-in-a-can are water soluable. The tire repair place simply washes the sealant out, fixes the puncture and you are good to go. I know this because I got a nail in my front tire and I called a Discount Tire place. I asked before I used the can - that's what they told me. When I got there they washed out the sealant and fixed the nail hole for free. BTW - the Tyre Weld that came with my 2.5 is not available in the US and all the other spares-in-a-can are larger in diameter, so they do not fit nicely under the cover in the trunk.�
Feb 18, 2013
Rupe When it came time to replace my rear tires, i wanted a set that has good traction, better tread wear than the stock tires and costs less. I got a pair of Michelin Pilot Sport A/S Plus at Sears on sale ($480 installed vice $800 from Tesla). What I immediately noticed was that they seem to perform as well and are much quieter (especially above 40mph) than the stock tires. I can actually use a Bluetooth phone with the Apline radio in my 2.5. With a UTQG of 500 AA A, I highly recommend them.�
Apr 9, 2013
Slackjaw I looked at these; a few people I've talked to said I should not mix types (I assume your fronts are still AD07s or AD08s). Have you noticed any traction issues with the mismatched set of tires? Thanks in advance. - Ian�
Apr 9, 2013
augkuo I've had no problems and I've had 3 sets MPSS - for 4WD having the same tread pattern is important but not necessary for 2WD. The tire sizes between front and rear are different anyways so that would be true if you rotated the tires front-right to back-left, etc.
�
Apr 10, 2013
strider I have Toyo Proxes 4's on the front and MPSS's on the back. No issues. The car understeered like crazy before I mixed tires and still does so today so the dynamics haven't changed.�
Apr 10, 2013
Doug_G That's why I have the adjustable suspension! You can really dial down the understeer.�
Apr 11, 2013
Slackjaw Thanks for the insights, guys...
This makes sense to me but I also have an email from a tire guy (admittedly, he's trying to sell me tires). Last time I needed new tires, this guy sold me the AD07s:
So, back to "undecided".�
Apr 11, 2013
strider Top speed of Tesla Roadster: 125mph. W speed rating: 168 mph I don't see the problem w/ a W speed rated tire since it exceeds the car's top speed.
If in doubt then stick w/ AD07's all the way around but that is the most expensive route. In the end it's up to you. That's that this forum is for - to learn form the experiences of others. It's up to you what you want to do with that info.�
Apr 20, 2013
dsm363 I finally put the AD08s on the rears with AD07s on the front. Haven't done any high speed driving but for normal highway driving I don't see much difference. Cheaper too.�
Apr 20, 2013
Doug_G I'm on my second set of AD08 rears. Still have the original AD07's on the front (although they spent a year in my basement while I was using another brand front and rear). The AD08's work just fine.�
Apr 26, 2013
Slackjaw Good points - in the end I went with a very low cost tire; Dunlop Direzza DZ101s and only replaced the rears. My Wife says she thinks they feel faster but she is probably comparing to the Winter tires. I drive like an old lady, in fact slower than an old lady it seems as I got honked at by an old lady yesterday for driving too slowly (apparently I took too long to pull out into traffic - it was a "visibility issue")
For anyone interested I now have the AD07s on the front and the DZ101s on the back. TC is quite happy and handling seems fine so far. I might take the car to the track later in the year and I'll maybe get a better feel for these tires.
Thanks�
Apr 27, 2013
hcsharp Thanks for your report. It's interesting to note that tire comes in both the front and rear tire sizes for the roadster. And it's affordable. Wish I could take your car for a spin to see what they feel like.�
Apr 28, 2013
Slackjaw Another TMC member, who lives near me and has a lot more experience with performance driving, has put the DZ101s on both front and rear. I considered it because they're so affordable and actually on special at TireRack (I think it was $83 per front and $95 per rear) but my reduce/reuse/recycle mentality stopped me wasting the rubber on the still-good fronts. I'll ask this other driver if he has any special comments about the tires with all four new ones.
Also - not sure if this means anything - I compared the tread patterns on the rear DZ101s and the front AD07s and they are very similar indeed. I actually took a photo to post here, but lost it [trying to transfer photos via bluetooth to a non-existent directory on my laptop, oops]. Next time I feel like taking the wheels off, which I have to do for a different reason anyway, I will take another picture. Hopefully before I've completely balded these rears.�
May 2, 2013
Pantera Dude Slackjaw, I'm interested in hearing what your friend has to say, does he have a 1.5 by any chance? I'm ready to buy tires for my 1.5 and judging by the specs, it looks like the Dunlops will work with no TC problems.�
May 7, 2013
Slackjaw Sorry for the delay - yes, he has a 1.5 and has not had any problems AFAIK. I'll ask him to weigh in here.
EDIT: I saw from the 1.5 tire thread that you already ordered these tires. So, good luck! I've been throwing the car about a bit in the past week and found the rears to be nice and sticky.�
May 9, 2013
ViperDoc I have AD08's on the back. I received Tesla's oral and written "scolding" when they last serviced my car, but they are running just fine�though they seem to wear down as fast as the AD07's (not surprising really). I will likely keep replacing the rear AD08's until the AD07's on the front need replacing then go with something else entirely.�
May 9, 2013
Doug_G You got "scolded"? In writing???�
May 10, 2013
hcsharp So did I. Same service techs - not surprising.�
May 10, 2013
Doug_G They just told me, "We can't mount anything but the stock tires". That's fine... I can.
I'm sure their fear is that someone is going to put less-sticky tires on the back and keep the AD07's or A048's up front. That could make the car much more prone to oversteer, and given the Roadster's power and regen braking, both power oversteer and snap oversteer are major concerns.�
May 10, 2013
strider That's odd. I had my Toyo Proxes 4's drop-shipped to Tesla Menlo and they replaced them during my service. I did do all 4 the same but they were definitely not stock.
Then this last time I came in I had MPSS's on the rear and Toyo's on the front and the service writer simply asked how I liked the Michelin's. No scolding of any kind.�
May 13, 2013
7racer looks like I need the rears replaced also. Are most of you guys purchasing these off of tirerack and having them installed locally or at a service center?�
May 13, 2013
Doug_G Tirerack and a local shop... but you might want to be picky about the shop...�
May 13, 2013
Pantera Dude Same for me.�
May 14, 2013
Botbldr45 Just got Yokohama W-drive's put on the rear of 992. The Rockville, MD service center put them on for me. The car just turned 25000 miles and this is the second set of winter tires for the rear. Front tires still look great...... Let you know how many miles I get with these. The Pirellis lasted two winters (Nov to April).
Thought I'd pass that along ..........�
May 15, 2013
7racer ordered the PSS....
I like to autocross and have been planing to take the 2.5 out. So wanted a bit more of a performance tire. I was interested to see that R888 are available too in stock size...�
May 15, 2013
Doug_G The A048's are pretty good for autocross, in my experience.�
May 29, 2013
ipdamages I need to replace all four of my tires and I'm planning to drop ship from tirerack.com to a local shop in So Cal. I'm currently thinking about trying the Dunlops on my 2010 Sport 2.0, or perhaps the AD07s and AD08s if I can't get the Dunlops in the front and rear sizes. I've been running AD07s, replaced and mounted by Tesla LA service, but I think I'm good for a change, and keeping some change.
Does anyone have a suggestion of a good So Cal tire shop to jack up a precious Roadster and keeping it to the proper jack points, and just generally a shop that does a good job and would be willing to mount tires that are drop shipped to them from tirerack.com?
- - - Updated - - -
Henry, I am not able to find the Dunlops in the front size (175/55/16). Did you see the DZ101s or some other Dunlop tire in that size? I checked tirerack.com and the Dunlop website.�
May 29, 2013
hcsharp The 195/50R16 size fits the front. The physical dimensions are very similar to the Yokos. I'm not sure how Yokohama sizes their tires but their 55 aspect tire size is about the same dimension as most 50's from other manufacturers. The Dunlops weigh about a pound more than the AD07.
Once you buy something for the front you're kind of stuck with it for a while, unlike the rear. That's why I'd like to actually drive on them before I buy the Dunlops. I suppose those are cheap enough you could afford to change them out without losing much if they didn't work out. Hoping you can give us a report when you have them installed and broken in for a few miles.:smile:�
May 30, 2013
Pantera Dude I did an autocross this past weekend with my new Dunlop Direzza DZ 101's and was happy with the results. I had not autocrossed the AD07's so I couldn't make a comparison under those circumstances. I think I will have the fronts re-balanced because I do have a little intermittent vibration at freeway speeds. An option would be to just replace the rears if your fronts are still good. I chose not to do that because I was afraid I might get an unsafe oversteer situation with that combination? I decided to play it safe and buy all four Dunlops and at the price, it wasn't too hard to make that decision.:biggrin: I am running the 195/50R16 on the front. I would buy these tires again. My car is a 1.5 but I think if the tires work on my car, they should be fine on the 2.0 and 2.5? By the way, it seems that most of my tire squeal has disappeared, probably due to the mold release agent wearing off?�
May 30, 2013
Doug_G The Roadster is very sensitive to front tire balance. I get mine rebalanced annually because mere tire wear alters the balance enough that you get vibration.�
May 30, 2013
Pantera Dude Sounds good, thanks!
- - - Updated - - -
It seems that most of my tire squeal has disappeared probably due to the mold release agent wearing off?�
Jun 14, 2013
7racer Have had the MPSS installed for a couple weeks now and it's MUCH quieter than my bald stock tires!! Lol.
I would just remind people to remember to set the VDS to learn "new tires".
This was the first set that I had done and noticed the traction control going off and remembered about the setting. If you. Never have done it, it's pretty weird. It goes almost in to a coast mode with TC off.�
Aug 15, 2013
jaanton Tirerack is reporting AD08's in closeout. AD08 R is new. Anyone have any experience with this new tire?�
Aug 15, 2013
Doug_G Appears to be a new version of the AD08 with orange peels (I kid you not - the tires are partially made from oil extracted from orange peels). Probably a drop-in replacement, maybe even a little better.�
Aug 15, 2013
thefortunes and it's only $2 more than the closeout old version.�
Nov 12, 2013
Doug_G Has anyone tried 205/45/16 on the front? I was thinking of the next autocross season, and would really like to dial down the understeer a bit more. Toyo Proxes R1R is available in that size. It's spec'd for a rim 1/2 inch larger than the Roadster's front wheels, but could probably squeeze it on.
Is the offset the same front/back? Has anyone tried putting 17" rims on the front?�
Nov 12, 2013
hcsharp I was a bit of a newbie with tire sizes at the time but I tried 205/50/16 and they interfered with the ground effects on a full turn of the wheel. I also found some 205/55/16 tires that did not hit the ground effects. What I learned was that not all tires with the same aspect ratio are the same. You need to measure or test them to find out for sure.�
Nov 12, 2013
smorgasbord Yeah, this recently happened to me. Fronts changed at 17.5K miles, out of balance by 24K miles (maybe sooner). Didn't have a problem with my original set of fronts, though.�
Nov 23, 2013
wiztecy Has anyone noticed a loss of range due to the larger foot-print up front?
Any pics of the 205 mounted up front with the rears in the back? Curious on how the bulge looks around the rim and the look between the front/rears since the rears won't have the buldge.
Also curious if anyone went wider than the stock 225's on the back and if that would offer any handling improvements.�
Nov 24, 2013
wiztecy No range loss for the 205 then I presume? Same with the 195's then.
======
Updated
======
Well, actually the width has a direct impact on range:
Tyre geometry - Taking into account the tyre transversal section dimensions, some of them could affect significant the rolling resistance.
Rim width - The major part of researchers agree that, in a particular case of a radial tyre, the minimum value of the rolling resistance is obtained for an optimum ratio between the width of the rim and the width of the tyre.
Tyre exterior radius - It is known that a large tyre has lower rolling resistance than a small tyre. The explication consists in the fact that the exterior radius is in close connection with the tyre nominal load. Thus, a large tyre has higher stiffness and encounters lower deformations over the same vertical load.
Source: Rolling resistance force
So what's the real loss? I'm sure someone has gone up in size in the front, can they report the loss in range with 195's as well as 205's? Please note your brand/model of tire since tire compounds play a huge factor in resistance.
The interesting part in real numbers here is that we're lighter up front so this may not be a huge issue for us. Can someone chime in?�
Jan 13, 2014
hrtchkr Had an interesting interaction with my local service center today. I recently purchased a 2010 2.0 Sport. Currently the car has the black forged wheels with four A048s on it. I also purchased a set of four standard wheels with AD07s on the front ones and Michelin Pilot Sport A/S Plus's on the rears. I called the service center to schedule an appointment to swap out the wheels and soften the suspension for winter driving as I'm not interested in being killled by the A048s on wet pavement or potholes. The service technician said he couldn't do that because the Michelins were not Roadster-approved tires. He said that they (the service techs) had recently been "told" that they were not allowed to work on any tires other than those sold at the service stations which, for winter driving means either Yokohamas or Hankooks. I explained that the tires are already mounted on the wheels and seem to be inflated (although unloaded who knows) and I only wanted to take the current wheels off and put the others on, but he said sorry but no dice -- they aren't allowed to work on any wheels with non-approved tires. Don't get me wrong. The guy was very nice and apologetic about it and understood my problem, but he just couldn't buck company policy. I get that it's preferred to have all four tires the same but I'm not doing any high-performance driving in the winter. I just want to be able to use the car when it's wet out.
I checked through some tire ratings sites and the Michelins are supposed to be very good both dry and wet, and there is definitely a lot of tread left on both the Michelins and the AD07s. It seems a shame to waste good tires. I have no problem switching the tires out myself (and saving the $100 or so they would probably charge). And I guess afterward I'll take the car over for the suspension adjustment (assuming they'll agree to do it with the new tires), but I was very surprised that they would balk at installing wheels with highly rated tires that fit perfectly and are far safer in the rain than the slicks I'm currently running. Has anybody else run into this problem?�
Jan 13, 2014
Doug_G FYI the A048's aren't even rated to be STORED in freezing temperatures - it will ruin the rubber.
This is the one and only area where Tesla service is unfortunately inferior to the "dealer model". I think this decision comes from their legal department; they are no doubt worried about legal liability. They'll only install tires that their engineering department has validated and approved.
Fortunately tires can be easily handled by any competent shop. Since they're on rims you can easily swap them yourself, although you will have to get Tesla to reset the TPMS sensors. (Or you can ignore the TPMS warnings.) Just get a good low profile shop jack and a torque wrench.�
Jan 14, 2014
hrtchkr Thanks Doug. will do.�
Jan 14, 2014
hcsharp The same is true of the AD07's, but not quite as bad. They cannot be stored below 14 deg F (-10C) for even a short time before it ruins the rubber. I recently bought a set of them from Tire Rack when they were on sale but waited until a stretch of warm weather was forecast between here and their warehouse before placing the order.�
Jan 14, 2014
Doug_G Fortunately my garage is insulated and doesn't get quite that cold. I need to have wheels on the car...�
Feb 8, 2014
hrtchkr
Just to close the loop on my previous post about switching out the wheels on my roadster.
So before I even jacked the car up, I tried loosening the lug bolts. Despite using a standard cross wrench and a pipe as an extender, on the driver�s side I was only able to get 4 lug bolts off. On the other side only two bolts loosened. I was puzzled, since they were only supposed to be tightened to 77 foot-pounds and I was sure I was generating much more torque than that with the wrench/pipe combo. I put the bolts back on and decided to take it to a local tire shop where they could break out the power tools. Finding a shop that was willing to jack or lift the car correctly was a little bit of a challenge but eventually I was able to take it to a small local shop I had used before to find specialty tires for one of my other cars. The guy there put the star tool into his impact driver and tried to loosen one of the lugs. Lots of loud noise but it didn�t budge. He tried another bolt but no dice. Now I was really confused (and a little concerned). I thought maybe the bolts turn in the opposite direction (like the ones on my 1963 Checker) but then I remembered that I actually had been able to loosen 6 already. The mechanic said his impact wrench was generating something north of 900 foot-pounds so obviously someone had WAY over-torqued the bolts when they put the A048s on. I asked him to try once more and he did but instead of the bolt loosening, the star tool started to back out. When we looked at it the metal tool was partially twisted. That�s when he said he wouldn�t touch the car again as he was afraid he�d break the tool or worse, the bolt.
Now I was worried. This guy wouldn�t (and I couldn�t) get these bolts off, and Tesla wouldn�t swap the wheels since the winter tires on them aren�t approved by the company. This is where the folks at the Westchester service center really came through. I called them up and asked what I should do. They still couldn�t install the other wheels but offered to loosen all my lugs and then retighten them to the correct torque so I could do the job myself. I drove over there and, of course, they couldn�t get the lugs off and the star tool was getting more twisted. One of the guys said he knew �some tricks� to loosen stuck lugs but now the tool was too bent to be usable. The nearest replacement tool was in Queens but this was Saturday so I would have to bring the car back on Tuesday to give them time to pick up the tool. Of course it snowed on Monday so I had to wait until Wednesday before I felt it was safe to drive over there on the A048s, which I did. The guy who knew the �tricks� wasn�t coming in until later so I left the car and took a rental to get to work, but I got the call at the end of the day that the job was done. I went over to pick up the car and not only had they loosened the bolts but they had washed the car and replaced the windshield wiper. And even though it took them more than 3 hours they only charged me for the wiper and new star tool � labor gratis! I asked the guy how he did it and he said something like �You don�t want to know� and I didn�t push it. He did say that it might be a good idea to get a whole new set of lug bolts as these had been severely stressed.
I brought the car home and put the new star tool in my wheel wrench and wouldn�t you know the first bolt wouldn�t budge! I leaned on it � hard. The star tool actually started to twist again. After I finished cursing, I brought out the 2x4 and hammer and finally got it loose. Fortunately the other bolts came off relatively easily. I swapped the wheels and put the bolts back on with my torque wrench. To me, 77 foot-pounds didn�t seem like much compared to the force I needed to remove the bolts, but I stuck with the recommended torque. One thing I have noticed is that the all-season tires make for a much smoother ride.
(Just a standard lug wrench and my muscular arms did this.)
Random thoughts: Why did the previous owner over-torque the bolts? Maybe he did a lot of auto cross and was afraid of the wheels coming off. I don�t know, but I now understand why the performance tires were still on the car when I took delivery in November. I�m going to need another star tool and I think I will replace all the lugs after all. The folks at the service center were outstanding and live up to the reputation that Tesla service has developed. But I really think that Tesla should make the tool out of hardened steel instead of what appears to be forged aluminum. Anyway I thought I�d post this at least for the amusement value. Anybody have similar experiences.�
Feb 9, 2014
Doug_G Sounds like the bolts were torqued to yield. Whoever did that is an idiot.�
Feb 9, 2014
hcsharp I'm surprised your bolts didn't break. It was probably corrosion that froze them. If salt gets in the threads, which it does pretty easily around here, and then sits for a year you can have experiences like this. My son broke two lug bolts on his Subaru last fall after heavy use in the winter and then over a year before removing them. They were never over-torqued. The star tool is not forged aluminum and is probably designed to bend before the bolts break.
Incidentally, it's a good idea to check your bolts to make sure they're tight a couple days after any tire work. They came loose on one of my wheels and I know they were properly torqued a few days earlier. It's a common problem with alloy wheels. Many garages now will make you sign a form that says you will return after 1-3 days to re-check the torque or they won't be responsible for what happens.�
Feb 10, 2014
jeremyz That's a good point about galvanic corrosion. Something like liquid wrench penetrating oil is good at dissolving the rust that forms. You just spray it on and let it sit for a few hours and generally the bolts come right off.�
Không có nhận xét nào:
Đăng nhận xét