Feb 15, 2016
Beryl 2 months in and 90% yields 254-255 averaging 254.6. ODO is only 1807.5 miles though. Currently on v7.1 build 2.11.54.�
Feb 15, 2016
msnow Thanks. Do you have Range Mode on or off?�
Feb 15, 2016
cinergi I'd settled down to 252 at 90% until recent "warm" (for the season here in Massachusetts) weather and it creeped up to 253 and then 254. With the cold snap over the past few days, it dropped back down to 252.
3,000 miles Range mode is off.�
Feb 15, 2016
Beryl Off.�
Feb 16, 2016
Oyvind.H What did you start off with when the car was new?�
Feb 16, 2016
cinergi I should have written it down. I believe it was 258. That dropped to 255 pretty quickly.
It's back in the 50's today -- and guess what: charge finished at 254.�
Feb 17, 2016
CleanPower Yesterday I hit a new low of 243 miles at 90%. That is a 7% loss of range in 5 months.
I have never turned range mode on.
�
Feb 17, 2016
msnow To put it a different way, you've lost virtually all of the 6% range increase you paid for by upgrading to the 90D from the 85D plus an additional 1%. I feel your pain; mine is 247 @ 90% but the SvC tells me it's not really lost. They say it's a software algorithm issue that will be corrected in an upcoming firmware update. Stay tuned.�
Feb 17, 2016
ecarfan I doubt you have actually "lost" range beyond the typical 1% in the first 6 months or so. It's a software estimation error issue that will likely be corrected in a future update.�
Feb 17, 2016
sorka So some have been told by Tesla. Until someone drives down to something low like 5% and reconciles remaining battery % with the wh / mile * miles driven, I don't think anyone will really know for sure.
There have been several updates since this was first postulated but no improvement in range indicated.
Silicon in the anode decreases cell life as the tradeoff for getting higher capacity. How did Tesla overcome this tradeoff?
The above chart shows a linear falloff over time. I seriously doubt it's suddenly going to level off. How much range must one lose before folks stop believing it's a calibration error? 10%? More?�
Feb 17, 2016
FlasherZ 2 more software releases, or when the range of a 90D falls more than 5% below that of an 85D purchased in the same month - and Tesla is forced to confront the issue (if it still exists).
There are a lot of things we don't know. Perhaps the 90D pack range loss will taper off and remain flatter than an 85 curve. Perhaps it is indeed a different cell type that isn't as good as it seems compared to the 85 kWh packs. Perhaps it's a measurement error and software will correct it.
Until someone's willing to bite the bullet and do the "drive until completely empty" test, you can't even start to separate "bad indicator" from "actually losing range".�
Feb 17, 2016
CleanPower These are the questions I'd like to have answered. ^^^�
Feb 17, 2016
MarcG FYI, my rated range has gone back up significantly as weather has gotten warmer in NorCal again.
I don't have a 90D, but I'm assuming the algorithm is consistent across models in that it lowers rated range when temperatures are colder, and raises it again when it's warmer.
Here's a graph of my rated range for charges limited to 90% - it got pretty cold (for the area) in November of last year, then I was skiing in WY & UT the second half of December where it was bitterly cold, then back in cold-ish NorCal in January but February has been warm again:
�
Feb 17, 2016
FlasherZ I will update my data around May-June, where I typically hit peak rated range for the year. There is a temperature effect that plays here, so I need to wait to look for the peaks to see what the curve looks like.�
Feb 17, 2016
msnow I will stop believing it's a correctable algorithm issue if Tesla doesn't come through on their written promise (to me and several others in this thread) that they are updating the software issue soon. My internal clock has that patience wearing out by the end of March. I've cycled down to 3/4% from a 100% charge two or three times with no appreciable effect.�
Feb 17, 2016
FlasherZ It's my belief that until someone bites the bullet and runs it until it shuts off, charges up to 100%, and does it again to determine the full range the car thinks it has, then you won't have a good indicator. At that point, if it only achieves 250ish miles, then you'll have demonstrated that clearly it's not an indication / algorithm issue but rather a capacity issue.�
Feb 17, 2016
Sparktz I am 2 months in and still have my original 90% rated range of 262 miles. I charge it to 90% every day, have range mode off, commute to work about 30 miles a day.�
Feb 17, 2016
BertL As cited previously with numerous posts in this thread, I too have this challenge with my S90D -- from a lifetime 90% charge high of 255 rated miles at delivery on 10/5, to now something between 249-251 depending on however the crazy algorithm is calculating things at the moment. It's not correlated to temp swings or simple rounding errors in my case, and I appreciate the data for some others with 85kWh batteries clearly show it is over longer spans of time. I have though, reported my situation to Tesla and have it documented (see previous posts) that my battery itself has no issue and it is a firmware problem how rated range is being calculated/presented, with no ETA for resolution.
HOPEFULLY EVERY OWNER WITH THIS ISSUE IS ALSO REPORTING IT TO TESLA and not just here on TMC. Please, do!
My recent hope is with the 90kWh now becoming the norm in the MS/MX line (replacing the 85kWh versions), Tesla sooner or later will have to address their error as more owners encounter and formally report this problem. It's hard to believe Tesla would have effectively discontinued the 85kWh battery, to the 90kWh now being standard in MX and MS if there was a physical problem and the 8-year battery warranty being in place. I just don't buy the gloom and doom scenario some folks continue to submit about a more systemic degraded cell life given this change Tesla has made globally to their product line -- even though I prefer to deal only with hard facts when I can. In addition, every time there is a new firmware release, there is another glimmer of hope changes for those of us with 90kWh batteries and erratic rated range estimates may magically become corrected -- e.g. I'm once again awaiting notification of my 2.9.172 update any time now that others started recently receiving OTA, so I can see if there happens to be any positive change in the data displayed in my favorite toy.
For those that care about detail, here's my log & all related parms set in my S90D: View attachment AEL RR 2-17-2016.pdf�
Feb 17, 2016
scottm Maybe the 90 battery is really just an 85 with the early degradation loss "headroom" being exposed to the user. Whoopsies!
And the exact same battery was going into 85's but Tesla chose to hide the early degradation. Ahhh..
Reported rated range estimates are not actuals, whoever can achieve these numbers in the real world? Nobody sane.
We're worrying about fantasy range not meeting hypothetical range, when we all know real drives falls short of either anyway.
Want to achieve your rated range? Drive slower and you will! Every time you feel ripped off, drive slower and see that for real you can actually EXCEED your rated range.
Hey! These are batteries. They're rechargeable. If you stop and charge somewhere for an extra 5 minutes... you gain all the distance back that you thought you lost. Ad infinitum.
WHO expects to drive the whole range of the car and is seriously hampered by fear or reality of "not making it" the whole distance? That is not a good match for an EV. You bought the wrong car if that's your expectation.
And the answer is not towing a trailer full of more battery just so you can not pee for 5 hours driving straight.. is not healthy. The answer is stop, charge. Then go. The SuperCharger network is your friend. Your "range" is limited by your imagination... drive forever!! Unlimited. Free charging. Free electrons. You are hauling free fuel.
Did I say FREE?�
Feb 17, 2016
FlasherZ 255 in October down to 249-251 right now is normal for me based on seasonality. My latest entry (today) for 90% shows battery_range at 230.1. On October 13, battery_range was 236.64 at battery_level of 90%.
- - - Updated - - -
Real drives don't necessarily fall short. In the summer I can average less Wh/mi than rated, so I get better range. Winter eats all that up though.�
Feb 17, 2016
sorka Yup. That's the only way to be completely sure hence my previous suggestion pages ago about driving around the block so you could push back to a charge or carrying generator that you'd run for an hour or so no more than a few miles from home so you could run out with a more flexible route.�
Feb 17, 2016
msnow For me at least; seasonality, temperature whatever you want to call it has 0% to do with my displayed rated range. I live in a temperate climate and the range has not fluctuated very much between last November and now. Having said that I trust and respect the data I've seen from @FlasherZ and @MarcG which does seem to show a difference for them.�
Feb 17, 2016
sorka Wait so, you nearly depleted your battery and did the total kw used since last charge jive with a 90KWh battery minus the 3 or 4% you had left?�
Feb 17, 2016
BertL I hate to repeat, but because this is an older and long thread, for those that are not S90 Owners with this problem or may not have read all the posts upstream -- part of the rub for those of us that paid $3K for the Range Option is the Tesla marketing materials stated that option would provide "6% additional Rated Range" over an 85kWh battery -- which equates to just over 16 miles of additional rated range we should have received. When you pay for a distinct option, at least I tend to be more focused if I received what I paid for and if it is operating as it should be.
I get all the points about RR being an estimate, not something a person can really achieve, batteries don't last forever and will naturally degrade in maximum charge they'll hold over time, yadda-yadda... but, Rated Range is something I was effectively told to look at by Tesla because of the option I purchased -- it's their measure used to sell me the option I purchased, and they calculate and present it in my MS and on the Tesla App. When owners like me see the number declining within a few days and weeks of delivery, and our precious 16 miles we specifically purchased as an option, seemingly evaporating into thin air ahead of what much longer-term owners see with 85kWh batteries in similar timeframes, that's why we're concerned. Tesla says it's not a physical battery issue, so PLEASE JUST CORRECT THE DATA YOU PRESENT YOUR OWNERS to reassure them what they purchased is as it should be, like the marketing materials said when we purchased our option. It would be a good thing for customer satisfaction, if nothing else -- and certainly reduce Tesla cost eliminating some number of owners taking time with Tesla Technical Support and at the Service Centers having to explain and put the customers at ease over and over and over...�
Feb 17, 2016
msnow If it was you, wouldn't you want to see if the firmware solves the issue before doing something like that?�
Feb 17, 2016
Beryl Starting at 262? Wow. My 90% started at only 257 (now at 255) but not complaining yet.
Please help me as I'm still new to this. The maximum 90% range 85D is supposedly 243 so the 90D should get 6% more ~ 257. Right?
There is an expectation that all batteries will degrade a bit but how much more are 90D batteries degrading than 85D batteries?�
Feb 17, 2016
msnow No. I only ran it down in those instances to test @wk057 and others research that doing so would rebalance the battery and reset or recalibrate the displayed rated range.
Heck, given wk057's recent posts on his hacking thread that the 85 kWh battery isn't really 85 kWh anyway I don't see the value in running it down to 0 not knowing what number I should be expecting.�
Feb 17, 2016
BertL Yes on the approx range.
Yes, all batteries will degrade over time. What's not known (beyond perhaps inside the labs at Tesla) is how the technology of the 90kWh batteries are similar or different with the speed and amount they change compared to the 85kWh. ALL comments here are just supposition thus far.�
Feb 17, 2016
Asciidv Just a bit more data. My S90D is 2 weeks old today. Battery started at 257 miles and today with a odometer reading 860 miles is down to 250 miles. Conditions in the UK are bad. Virtually all mileage has required, headlights, heater (typically 70F), heated seats, screen heater, and wipers. Outside temp. 30-40F.
Does anyone have a table of how much the accessory electrical loads consume?�
Feb 17, 2016
FlasherZ It depends. If I had the resources (like a good friend with a flatbed truck and a great set of backroads to drive), I wouldn't think twice about doing it for the data's sake. But if I was going to be forced to pay full towing fees downtown in a city, I would have to think twice. That's assuming I really care - and you do care, if you aren't willing to accept Tesla's statement at face value.
Until then, we have no data on which to make any conclusions whatsoever - including the primary conclusion people in this thread are jumping to, which is that the 90 kWh packs are losing real-world range because of the indication on the dash. This worry could all be hand-wringing. To some people, it's going to be a worry that affects them, to some it doesn't.
You can't just discharge to 3-4%, because you don't know if there's a 30 mile floor underneath that. You literally have to take it down to the shutdown voltage and then get it back on a charger immediately. Only then will you know if you really lost that range.
Right now, based on what I'm seeing from 85 kWh packs, I wouldn't reach any conclusions whatsoever until April/May, when the peak rated range is achieved for a given SOC level. It's dangerous to take a comparison of cold month vs. warm month and try to reach any conclusions.
- - - Updated - - -
That's why you have to compare the product: Your Wh/mi * your miles should roughly equal rated Wh/mi * rated miles. If it's significantly less, then you know that you suffered. But you have to do it in one continuous drive, so you don't lose power on vampire draw, while car's in park, etc.
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It's unfortunate, but the only direct comparisons you can really do will have to be at the one-year period, if you want to exclude any effect you might be seeing from it.
If you haven't signed up for the TeslaLogger, you might want to consider that as it will capture this data for you so that you can graph it easily.�
Feb 17, 2016
scottm This ^
+1
All this talk about "driving until zero".... it depends on HOW you are driving.
Put the car in a lab on rollers. Heat the lab to 20*C. All car loads turned off. Screen brightness to zero. Jamb the pedal to a constant speed position (suggest 23 MPH) and leave it there, until the car says "STOP" or just stops on its own. Record "miles traveled". Charge 100%, repeat. It will blow your mind.�
Feb 17, 2016
msnow You're right I do care but I can wait for the expected software fix. I'll admit it's the lazy way out. [emoji1]�
Feb 17, 2016
sorka I think all that would be fine as long as it comes with a $3K refund and a promise that the range won't degrade faster than an 85 battery once it reaches that level
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I would like to point out that if there is a problem with the battery, the software can easily be *fixed* to hide range degradation and you wouldn't know unless you ran it to empty.�
Feb 17, 2016
BertL Oh, yes, at least a few of us that own an S90 are way ahead of you on that point. It would be the next set of questions. But honestly at this point, I'm all about "first things first".
�
Feb 17, 2016
Gremlin Based upon U.S Army lithium Ion battery study, talking to Carlos prior to moving from Tyson's to NY store, you should should charge between 50-70 percent. This is true especially during when its hot cold. Google the U.S. Army lithium study. Some guy in DC who has the most miles of any Tesla driver and very little batter degradation charges between only 70 miles for daily commuting. Wish I knew then what I know now, as my 90 percent for 60 is a 168 miles.
Lost 20 miles :- ( with 36K miles on my ride. I would not have gotten a 60 either due to differently chemistry and higher charging cycles. I'll upgrade the battery (whenever Tesla allows it) based upon Elon's tweet about Model S battery upgrade. Wife gave me the okay to upgrade but I'm not eating 30K of equity for an 18 month car based upon latest Tesla trade in quote.
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Based upon U.S Army lithium Ion battery study, talking to Carlos prior to moving from Tyson's to NY store, you should should charge between 50-70 percent. This is true especially during when its hot cold. Google the U.S. Army lithium study. Some guy in DC who has the most miles of any Tesla driver and very little batter degradation charges between only 70 miles for daily commuting. Wish I knew then what I know now, as my 90 percent for 60 is a 168 miles.
Lost 20 miles range :- ( with only 36K miles for Lord Raiden. I would not have gotten a 60 either due to differently chemistry and higher charging cycles. I like to upgrade the battery (whenever Tesla allows it) based upon Elon's tweet Model S battery upgrade.
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not suppose to charge the cars to 90 percent folks, based upon the U.S. Army's lithium study. 50-70 percent for daily uses. Road trip is a different story.�
Feb 17, 2016
sorka His 262 was probably with range mode on. My P85D displayed 227 at 90% with range mode off but was something like 231 with range mode on.�
Feb 17, 2016
Sparktz Range mode off. Not sure how to make the picture smaller, sorry.
�
Feb 17, 2016
JRP3 Did the US Army study include the cells Tesla is using? If not the conclusions are probably irrelevant.�
Feb 18, 2016
GoTslaGo Can you link the article? I googled and got a hosted of different articles, but nothing stating 50-70 percent for daily uses. Thanks!�
Feb 19, 2016
sorka No. You need to record wh / mile * miles driven to determine your usable battery capacity.�
Feb 19, 2016
apacheguy Everyone has different theories. And everyone cites different studies. Just because the US Army says it's so doesn't mean it's so. There are plenty of other battery researchers at reputable institutions that suggest 3.92 V per cell is ideal (NASA among them, ask jpet). My rule of thumb is below 4 V per cell so I only charge to 80%.�
Feb 21, 2016
chriSharek I notice that this thread began in October. Could forecasting of range take into account the weather, which would reduce range as well as the normal battery degradation in the first year?�
Feb 21, 2016
msnow If you browse through the thread you'll see In most cases with the 90D it was not a weather/temp issue. The thread started in October because at the time a couple dozen of us that bought new cars a month earlier were noticing it was dropping rated range at the rate of one mile per week. For about half of those people the temperatures stayed between 80-90 degrees through the entire time. Most of us ended up with between 8 to 12 less displayed rated miles than what we started with. Tesla says there is no actual range loss and that it's a software issue that will be fixed.�
Feb 21, 2016
sorka ....which they still haven't after several more updates.�
Feb 21, 2016
brianman Much simpler and safer to leave the garage door open with the heat cranked on full to drain the battery. Might take longer and be less fun than driving, but you're guaranteed to be parked in range of a reliable charge point when drained.�
Feb 21, 2016
liuping I've been only charging to 80% lately, so I have not been monitoring the 90% rated range recently.
However, I did charge to 90% this week and the good news is it has not declined since early January. It's now hovering at 243-244. Not great for a 90D with 6k miles on it, but at least it has stopped dropping 1 mile of range every week as it was last year. I really hope the firmware fix sort this out.�
Feb 21, 2016
brianman This sounds a lot like the P85D discussions about horsepower and the P90D discussions about 1/4 mile. And if you really want to roll back the clock: the Sig premium on Model S.
Tesla is, unfortunately, building a reputation among owners of providing questionable value for additional premium feature offerings. It saddens me.�
Feb 21, 2016
msnow I take it you doubt them but it's been just one update not "several" since they told me that.�
Feb 21, 2016
wizputer Since I think around the 7.1 update, I've found the car at various levels of charge after it completes charging to 90%. I've caught it as much as 5% loss in a day (morning to night) while still plugged in.
It seems like it's the HVAC since every time I've noticed the range discrepancy. The car is comfortable or even noticeable warmer than the garage. Though Tesla Log is not showing the fan being enabled at all, so I'm at a loss how the Tesla cabin can be 70F in a ~50F garage even after 12h.
I don't have smart preconditioning enabled. Even so, I thought the HVAC is supposed to run off shore power.
According to Tesla Log, it seems I've lost 0mi at 90% since Dec., recorded 251.3mi this morning. So that's a plus I suppose. Just annoying that the depending on how long from reaching 90% and departure, the CID will show 242-248mi of range. It seems to always lose the first 1% roughly an hour after charge completion and the rest at various rates, if at all.�
Feb 21, 2016
sorka And how are you going to measure that since the kw meter won't register anything while stopped?�
Feb 21, 2016
FlasherZ You could use the heater to take the battery all the way down to zero the first time. Then charge to 100%, let it complete, then drive it around until it reaches the dead point, at which point you take your Wh/mi * your miles and compare that to rated Wh/mi * rated miles to see how close you are to the full capacity�
Feb 26, 2016
Marcira I brought my car in for service today and I mentioned the range loss: (90% charge/range mode off, delivered 9/30/15) from approx. 265 to currently 242 (with some flux). The SM stated it was a function of the algorithm estimating range based on driving conditions including how I drive. They assured me that the battery was in perfect health and stated future firmware updates will continue to improve the algorithm. I do believe, that the range estimate probably over estimates my range based on the cold winter driving and has nothing to do with battery life/health. �Range decline� seems like it is just the algorithm adapting to the driving, not the battery capacity.�
Feb 26, 2016
msnow Well, had you bought an 85D instead of the 90D your displayed rated range would be about the same as you have now but you would have saved $3,000. Many of us got a somewhat different story from the Service Center than what you got. Mainly that it is an algorithm issue with the 90D but had nothing to do with driving conditions.�
Feb 27, 2016
BertL 7.1 2.12.126 - No early result improvement
Installed firmware 7.1 2.12.126 yesterday on my S90D, which some other owners have reported contains changes to BMS (as many recent releases have). Findings are too early to draw any final conclusions except that I see no immediate benefit from the latest firmware with displayed Rated Range. Rated Range showed 248 miles before and after the update. This morning, my overnight 90% charge is showing 251 rated range, which is within the 249-251 I've been seeing the last few weeks with both higher and lower temps. I'll be doing a mini road trip next week, and if any new revelations become apparent, I'll post here. For those that care about detail, my current log: View attachment Rated Range.pdf
I still do not believe my S90D rated range drop since delivery correlates significantly to temperature as others have seen with seasonal S85s they own, nor do I have any plans to take my battery down to as close-to-zero charge for back-to-back cycles as some suggest is necessary to understand more.�
Feb 27, 2016
Beryl I'm thinking the problem might be related to a quality problem with some batteries. Most people don't post when all is good.
We will have a lot more data in the coming months since the 85 option has been eliminated.�
Feb 27, 2016
MarcG Bert, from looking at your data it seems that you only lost 4 to 6 miles of rated range from your 90% charge levels in about 5 months, is that correct?
If so, I believe this is absolutely expected and there doesn't seem much to be worried about at this point.�
Feb 27, 2016
BertL Thx, and yes, you're correct in your observation -- although this started back before the decline sorta seems to have leveled-off for the time being. I and a couple others reporting here seem to be some of the first to have received the 90kWh batteries with September 2015 builds. I get the technical explanations folks have suggested or hypothesized, comparisons to the much older 85kWh batteries that may or may not apply to this tech, and also appreciate Rated Range is a sort of estimate -- not an absolute indicating actual range I may or may not achieve with my MS.
As stated earlier, I'm also trying to give Tesla some time to fix their firmware as they confirmed this is not a physical issue with my MS back in December, but a firmware bug that needs resolving. Until that is done though, I have a problem and will continue questioning in the back of my head if I have some sort of earlier degradation that the 90kWh technology or early builds involve. It's also why I try to pay attention with every firmware release - hoping a fix may have been included that isn't listed in the very-high level release notes.
My concerns remain:
- There is nothing in Tesla documentation that says I should expect a rated range decline like I have encountered -- or how much and how quickly. Tesla does not set an expectation with their owners, especially ones that we'll hopefully have more of in the future that are not so techie or forgiving early enthusiasts, who just want to know they are receiving what they paid for.
- I paid $3K for effectively 16 miles of rated range as a "range upgrade" compared to a 85kWh model where more than 40% of both evaporated into thin air within a couple months after delivery using Tesla's own measurement used to describe the benefit of the option: Rated Range. From that POV using Tesla's marketing material for the option I purchased, and the Rated Range I recorded from my IC the day of delivery, Tesla has not provided what was promised and what I paid for ...but as I said, I'm trying to be somewhat reasonable.
- I've had multiple situations where the displayed rated range values are questionable at best going up and down by more than 1 mile within seconds of one-another while I'm parked (ruling out a simple rounding error), and the value I see after charging to 90% is inconsistent from day-to-day by a couple of miles (without being able to establish a temperature correlation), putting more question into what the displayed Rated Range value can really be used for, or how valid it is to begin with
- It appears Range Mode (I have purposely kept mine ON) may also be keeping my displayed Rated Range numbers higher than other S90D who keep that option OFF. IDK that for a fact though because Tesla does not discuss it. (msnow is an example here on TMC where he took delivery just before I did with his S90D and keeps Range Mode OFF, seeing greater rated range degradation than I do, and no significant temperature correlation.)
Tesla needs to do a better job officially explaining what's going on and what to expect in this regard. Assuming Rated Range is just an estimate, they also need to change their firmware to do a better job presenting perhaps an averaged number over some amount of time so the values don't appear to change for no reason. As I said, I'm trying to be a reasonable Owner, but now that Tesla is using the 90kWh battery as the standard in MX and for most MS, they MUST fix their firmware (assuming that is all that needs to be changed) to eliminate questions from future owners, and reduce the number of calls going to Tech Support and time it is taking at SCs dealing with these customer questions, to instill confidence and improve Owner satisfaction so even enthusiasts like myself remove the nagging question if we have been sold a bill of goods or may have some underlying problem no one will yet confirm.
I'm already looking forward to the next firmware release.�
Feb 27, 2016
msnow Mine is a month older (9/15/2015) and I went from 258 to 247. Or, put another way 11 of the 16 miles that were supposed to be added by buying the 90D vs. the 85D. Hopefully Tesla will fix the algorithm issue soon.�
Feb 27, 2016
MarcG Guys, don't forget that all models have decreasing rated range - albeit at different rates from the sounds of it.
So even though you may have lost X miles of the 16 you're meant to get over the 85kWh version of your models, the 85kWh packs are losing Y miles over time as well.
The question remains whether the drop for 90kWh is more accentuated, and whether it's true degradatiin or firmware-related -- the latter of which can easily be fixed.�
Feb 27, 2016
msnow Agree. Tesla says it's a lot more than it should be but that it's not "real" degradation but rather a software algorithm issue. Not sure how easy it is to fix but that's their story. I've lost a lot but there are people on this thread that have lost more than the 16 miles or 6-8% total in about 3-4 months.�
Feb 28, 2016
TheTank As I have posted before, my P90DL went all the way down to 220 miles at 90% (Sept 8 Pickup) within 2 months. They have assured me that its simply the software algorithm. It had stayed at this level until the last month or so. After the last few updates it has risen to 226 miles at 90% so the algorithm theory makes sense. I have also drove the car with a lower than rated range (wh/m) from full charge to 5 miles left and it only showed 77kw used where I expected around 85 with 5 buffer or something. I don't know if anyone has pondered if it is simply the car thinks zero is at 13kw left, or that 100% is at 77Kw so the upper or lower limits are just set wrong ? What would happen if I charged to 100%, drove it as close to the rated range wh/m and then when it gets to 5 miles left park it and let the heater bring it down to zero or past zero? If I let it keep going past zero, would it let me? Would I risk damage or anything like that? Has anyone tried it? What should my total KW used be on it? Thoughts?�
Feb 28, 2016
msnow Tested for three 90% charge cycles and I picked up 1.5 more rated miles since updating to 7.1.2.12.126. Anyone else with a 90D or other batteries seeing this?�
Feb 28, 2016
BertL 2nd day and 2nd 90% charge after the latest firmware update and showing 251 rated miles once again this morning. Have been running 249-250 for the last 2 weeks with several days being warmer (and a couple cooler) than the last two days. Inconclusive still from my perspective, but it is enough to peak my interest. I'd say I'd keep my eye on it, but have already been doing that on a daily basis since 11/2/2015.�
Mar 3, 2016
PBP Also got the new update yesterday. Charged to 90% = 226 mi (366 km) typical. Should i be concerned? Mine is a demo P90D registered november 15 now with 3600 miles. Delivered to me early February with 3125 mi. My 90% has always been 226 mi.�
Mar 3, 2016
msnow We've all been told by our respective Service Centers *in writing* that the loss is not real battery degradation but instead a software algorithm issue that will be corrected in an upcoming update. Suggest if you are concerned that you bring this up to Tesla to see what they say.�
Mar 3, 2016
BertL As msnow suggests, it's hard for others to know what worries you and what constitutes "concern".
Personally, I'd think about it this way... A P90D should have about 268 rated range miles at 100% charge, or 241 at 90%. (253 mi + 6% gives you the 268, * .9 = 241). You are only seeing 226 miles at 90% how Tesla presents rated range to you. So where are the "missing" 15 miles at 90% charge, since you don't have any better way to measure how good your battery is functioning. If that worries you or causes concern, then document your concern to Tesla. IMHO, it's important you do, and allow them to explain the problem and provide a resolution to your satisfaction. As you've read here, Tesla has told some of us this is an algorithm problem requiring a future firmware fix. We hope that fix comes sooner than later, but if not and there is a physical problem of some sort, you really do want to have your concern formally documented to Tesla. Having another owner that takes the time to report their concern about early loss of rated range to Tesla does nothing but help all of us possibly having an earlier resolution. Thank you in advance for your help.�
Mar 3, 2016
sorka The only way you can know for sure is drive until you hit that rated range or the battery dies. But in practicality you can't. But you still want to know that it's there in case you get into unplanned trouble. It could have gone the other way. The car could report the expected rated range even if it was losing capacity and then you wouldn't know until you drove 95% of what it said you would have and it suddenly dies. Or you get low enough that the car now has to start reporting truth or you will die unexpectedly rather than having chance to limp to an RV park or something.�
Mar 3, 2016
apacheguy Have folks looked into the CAN data for the 90 kWh?�
Mar 4, 2016
mkjayakumar The poster who said 76kWh consumption from 100% to 5 miles left - that is as close you can get to estimating the battery capacity accurately than any funky calculations and algorithms.
Adding another generous 2kWh for the remaining 5 miles gives only 78kWh usable capacity, which is only 2kWh more usable capacity from a 85 kWh battery.
Now that should be a cause for concern. Tesla sure seems has a problem in their hands for 90 batteries, and it doesn't seem algorithm related.�
Mar 4, 2016
lolachampcar I did a logger that includes Battery data. Perhaps we should start logging troublesome cars and put the data up on a common drive for sharing? I can put a few more loggers into circulation if needed.
Voltage leveling examples
#41
Animated charge profile
#48�
Mar 4, 2016
apacheguy
The cell voltage data are useful, but what we really need here are NomFullPackEnergy and EnergyBuffer. @lola - does your logger support these variables?�
Mar 4, 2016
Jool Just checking in again. My 90% charge went from 242 to 246/247 in the days since receiving the latest firmware update. Not sure if it's the software or rising temperatures here, but I'll take what I can get!�
Mar 7, 2016
chriSharek How much does the estimated range calculator take into account the TYPE of driving that's being done? My local Tesla guy David would say "spirited driving" . . . Would that affect the estimated range? It certainly takes the type of driving done in my Volt (which I know isn't MS!)�
Mar 7, 2016
msnow It's just an EPA rating based on their criteria for driving and average driving conditions. It's not realtime so your personal driving style is not a factor.�
Mar 7, 2016
jbcarioca Slight error here. There are several range calculations for the S and X:
Rated- replicates the EPA test 5-cycle for US cars. Other countries may vary.
Estimated- Predicates range based on brief historical driving so changes. Driver can change this estimate on screen for Instant, 5 miles, 15 miles or 30 miles.
Ideal- replicates original EPA test 2-cycle, so is more optimistic.
It is usually not difficult to beat rated range in good weather and road conditions. It us even possible to beat ideal range if you're willing to drive very slowly and smoothly in good weather. The real value is estimated, though because it is the only measure that tells the driver how the car is actually performing.�
Mar 7, 2016
msnow Yes, you're right I missed the "estimated" part of the comment b�
Mar 7, 2016
rawn77 So I'm the OP of this thread chiming back in after a long sit out.
I'm pissed!
I thought there would have been a fix already to this problem already.
We paid $3k for an option and received no value or use for it.
To say that it's just an algorithm issue and not a battery issue is misleading.
The only method I can determine how far I can drive before re-charging is the battery range number I see on the screen.
I do not feel warm and cozy to think that I can add theoretical miles to the range indication because of software miscalculations.
I can only go by what the range shows me. Regardless of my actual day to day driving requirements; I paid for 6% more range for $3,000 and did not receive it.
What's worse is that Tesla knows about it yet doesn't acknowledge it freely.
I think everyone of us had to teach our SA's about this issue.
We've endured bullsh!t responses about weather, driving styles and the like; which we all know has nothing to do with the battery rated range.
I never received an email, a call or a letter from Tesla about this problem.
I received my car last September (6 months ago), that should be enough time to fix a so called algorithm.
I think all of us Model 'S' 90 owners should find away to collectively show our displeasure.
I'm not talking about a class action suit, but some how to collectively sign a letter or form or whatever.
Like I said earlier, I'm pissed.
Thoughts?�
Mar 7, 2016
msnow Makes sense. Either a refund or a date certain in the near future on the update that fixes this for us. Interested to hear what other 90D owners that have this issue think.
P.S. good to hear from you again.�
Mar 7, 2016
Canuck You should be re-charging daily so I don't see how this is really an issue.
I've had my car for 2 years, and I do a lot of long distant driving, but I've never gone below about 20 km and that was only one time. And, if you really needed that extra range you paid for, it would still be there. Granted, the range anxiety would be worse -- and I do understand your concerns.
Maybe Tesla is too busy working on the algorithm for the 100kWh batteries?:
Tesla's response to me leaking info about the P100D?�
Mar 7, 2016
sorka Really? How do you know this? Has anyone run their 90D down to 0 miles yet and reported here? At this point, even if Tesla *fixes* this through a software update, I'd be more than paranoid that it was just a tweak to the software to hide actual degradation.�
Mar 7, 2016
Canuck You're right. I don't know. I should have said "it may still be there", because we don't know if it's an algorithm problem or degradation problem.�
Mar 7, 2016
jeffro01 Almost the same exact scenario here, although my 90% is now up to 249.
What are we "supposed" to be seeing at 90%?
Jeff�
Mar 7, 2016
sorka 90% would be about 257, right? (270*1.06)*0.9=257.58.�
Mar 7, 2016
jeffro01 Interesting... I remember the first night or two after we got it home it was 259 then came down from there. I always assumed it was because the car's algorithm was adjusting to my wh/mi driving style and that seems to be possibly supported with the conversation here about a algorithm problem. That being said, I'd like to think Tesla could find and fix the "math"...
I paid extra for the 6% as a "just in case" since the 85 would have been fine for 95%+ of our driving so if I paid extra for "nothing" then I'd certainly like to understand that better... My problem is I don't have the time to complain to my local SC, track the communication of that complaint, etc...
Jeff�
Mar 7, 2016
msnow Nobody's going to run their car to zero and there's no 100% guarantee that would prove anything anyway. Tesla has said "in writing" that nothing is wrong with our batteries based on their tests and that the update will fix the discrepancy. I say we trust them and if we find out different down the rode we can deal with it then.�
Mar 7, 2016
msnow Jeff, yes 257-258 (mine was 258) and sounds like yours was too rounding up. My suggestion for you would be the next time you are at the SC you explain the issue and have them document. I assume it will be consistent with what we were told. At least this will cover you down the road. Option 2 would be an email.�
Mar 7, 2016
sorka Not if you're counting miles, but if you're counting kWh used since a 100% charge and you don't get 6% more than we get on our 85's I think that would prove something. You can disagree which I'm sure is what Tesla wants. I'm certainly glad I didn't pay $3K extra for nothing.
Oh, and since Tesla said all is fine in writing, we should just stop worrying because they've never lied or mislead their customers before. I can't think of 691 other times that they have.�
Mar 7, 2016
chriSharek Noob here . . . what is the 1.06 factor in your calculation?
My bad. You were taking the additional 6% of the 85's range. Got it. Sorry.�
Mar 7, 2016
MarcG FYI - not to muddy the waters - but Tesla had published on their website the EPA rated range for the 90D in early-February as 288 miles, but then changed it a couple of weeks later back to the 85D range with an asterisk that the 90kWh pack provides about 6% more. Not sure why, but there you have it :biggrin:
Specs as of 2/8/16:
Specs as of 2/25/16:
�
Mar 7, 2016
chriSharek That certainly is muddying the waters!�
Mar 7, 2016
msnow The new specs are pretty close if not identical to what it was when I took delivery last September. 6% more than the 85D or 16.2 miles=286 miles EPA rated.�
Mar 7, 2016
Canuck From my understanding of lithium ion batteries, degradation is worse in the first year then slows after that. So you can't expect the battery to have the same capacity six months later, by comparing that number to when you drove it off the lot. However, you can expect that the loss in capacity will not be as significant as takes place within the first year.�
Mar 7, 2016
Jool I remember my 90% after delivery was about 256.�
Mar 7, 2016
dmckinstry Indicated capacity depends on a number of things including charging history, temperature, etc.
I normally charge to 90% daily for a week or so and then do a max range charge (leaving it only at full charge for 10 minutes or so).
The best I've gotten lately is 231 miles at 90% with 256 miles at max range. My '13 85 has 61 k miles on it. It's sometimes useful (I do it rarely) to drive the to car to 0 miles (I just drive around to block a few times as I get close to 0). Then do a full max range charge to see how much it takes to fully charge it. The last time I tried it the pack took in 75 kWh to full. As I said, charging history and weather conditions have a large effect.
P.S. Remember that driving to 0 miles does not empty the battery.�
Mar 8, 2016
msnow I guess the question is, if you discovered you lost 11 of the promised 16 miles you paid $3k extra for in the first 8-12 weeks would you feel ripped off? This, of course, is assuming as you are that it's a real loss and not a software issue.�
Mar 8, 2016
Canuck Yes, definitely.�
Mar 8, 2016
travwill I posted this in the 90% thread but applies here too. The algo on the car is flexible, learns based on your driving, and no one really drives the idea pattern that original miles are based on. So everyone is going to see their true estimate of rated range go down, and perhaps level off some after a while. Tesla sent me the below a while back:
"
The original ### miles is based on a test of the vehicle�s driving efficiency in ideal driving conditions. Clear sky, no traffic, 60-65 MPH. As the vehicle is exposed to your various driving conditions which can allow efficiency to falter from time to time, the vehicle will soon adapt to the conditions and display a more accurate or real-time estimate of miles based on that history.
Essentially the vehicle�s algorithm that projects usable range has learned your driving conditions/style and thus the apparent loss of range. You should continue to feel confident in your vehicles battery as regardless of what may happen over time you are covered for 8 years Unlimited miles if there is something that comes up with the Battery.
"�
Mar 8, 2016
mkjayakumar I am sorry, I don't believe that explanation one bit.
The rated range is a function of (what the BMS thinks) how much energy can be stored in the battery, and has no correlation to how you drive. Of course IMO.�
Mar 8, 2016
sorka The rated range is not effected by driving habits or projected temperature. The rated range CAN be effected by how cold your battery is when it charges. Estimated range on the other hand takes into account current temperature and driving habits. My rated range never changes from very cold days to warm days. Last month when it was freezing, it charged to 225 at 90% same as it did last week when it was 20 degrees warmer.
�
Mar 8, 2016
apacheguy Actually, wk has been able to discern that rated range is pack capacity divided by a constant.�
Mar 8, 2016
sorka Excellent. Guess that puts to rest claims that the rated range is influenced by driving patterns or changing environment.�
Mar 9, 2016
jerry33 I'm pretty sure that pack capacity changes with pack temperature, so there should be a small change from summer to winter (in those places that have summer and winter). However, driving patterns have never been part of it.�
Mar 9, 2016
msnow Not correct.�
Mar 9, 2016
apacheguy Likewise, there could also be the argument that driving very aggressively results in less kWh being drawn from the pack and therefore the car believes it has less capacity than it actually does.�
Mar 9, 2016
FlasherZ No, you have to look at the variables. So if it's pack_capacity / constant, then you look at how the car detects pack_capacity. Is it strictly voltage? That sounds fishy to me, because voltage curves aren't linear.
I have pretty definitively demonstrated the seasonality of rated_range, it has a relatively tight correlation with ambient temperature -- it's not perfect, but I have found no other correlations that match. I even attempted a correlation with trailing driving style (based on deriving Wh/mi - sum of kWh into the car in a given period divided by the number of miles driven in that period), which has a loose correlation with temperature, but that correlation falls apart above 50 degF / 10 deg C where the "winter penalty" flattens out.
Right now, my rated range is continuing to increase on my car at 90% SOC as spring is approaching. If temperature isn't influencing pack capacity calculations, then I have a magic battery pack that borrows range in the spring through summer, and donates it back starting in autumn through winter.�
Mar 9, 2016
Max* My RR at 90% has gone up by 2RM over the past few weeks. While I believed your analysis, it's nice to see it in action on my own car, heh.
Are any 90D owners seeing their RR at 90% start to creep up? Could your "losses" be accounted for by weather alone?�
Mar 9, 2016
msnow Mine went up 1.5 to 2 rated miles since the last update. There have been no fluctuations in temperature in my area so my assumption is there was a change in the algorithm that accounts for it.�
Mar 9, 2016
jmsurpri So what is the constant? On my 6 day old 85D's Monroney sticker, it shows 270 rated miles at 340wh/mi. That equates to a battery capacity of 91.8kWh. Obviously that isn't right, so what does the 340 number represent?�
Mar 9, 2016
BertL My personal opinion, for the right or wrong of it is Tesla is using the 85kWh as the baseline as that is the one cited on the EPA site last time I looked, so it's probably "official", whereas the 90kWh when first announced had the marketing "6% additional" statement vs anything officially accepted by the EPA, the trade press, or whoever thinks they are an authoritative figure beyond Tesla's POV... There are other threads where Tesla used or perhaps changed other measurements for things they thought were OK but got into lots of debate with enthusiasts here on TMC for example, so maybe -- just maybe -- Tesla chose to just leave their rated range stats on the pages with what they had, vs potentially stir up a bunch of new controversy. Really, anyone can debate it both ways, and I've mentioned my view many times in this thread, so won't waste everyone's time with that again right now.�
Mar 9, 2016
BertL I believe there is an improvement in 2.12.126 or 2.13.77 - at least with my S90D
Just back a couple hours ago from a few days 600+ mile road trip with my MS and use of different SpCs and another 80A HPWC from the two I have always used for the first 5 months of S90D ownership. I'm presently on firmware 7.1 2.13.77, about 10 days into the last two new code drops, and I really do believe there has been an improvement -- not a resolution -- in the way Rated Range on my specific S90D is presented in either 2.12.126 and/or 2.13.77.
Net is something like this in big round numbers:
- From marketing materials, I expect Rated Range on my S90D to be ~257 miles @ 90% Charge, and ~286 at 100% (which includes 16 miles unique to the Range Upgrade Option I purchased)
- At delivery running firmware 6.2, I had 255 rated range miles @ 90% which is the highest I've ever seen, and my first 100% charge was 282 a month later
- In my first 5 months (October-March) my lowest Rated Range has been 249 miles @ 90% multiple times, and 278 miles @ 100% (I've only charged to 100% 6 times, so statistically it does not help with the analysis)
- Since installing firmware 7.1 2.12.126 and 2.13.77, I'm now consistently achieving 251-252 rated range miles @ 90%, and my last 100% charge displayed 280 miles which is better than it has been
.?...so, while I've still lost something from what I expect from Tesla's Marketing materials I based my purchase upon, after running the latest firmware for more than 10 days, I really do believe Tesla has introduced a Rated Range algorithm change that improved and perhaps stablizes what my S90D displays. Hopefully there will be additional future refinement, but I'm pleased with movement in the right direction.* Thank you, Tesla.?
For those that like detail, my current Temp, Rated Range, & Firmware log: View attachment AEL Rated Range.pdf Take note of data from 2/16/16 onward when the latest firmware levels were installed, and note the lower temps when those charges and my recordings typically take place each day, compared to sometimes even higher temps with lower rated range many times in the weeks before. All my energy-related settings and environment are noted at the bottom of that spreadsheet.
* ...and to avoid comments we've discussed earlier in this thread: I get RR is an estimate and may not correlate to practical range achieved on the road; battery capacity will decline over time; and some members with 85kWH batteries have a lot of good detail showing seasonal temperature variation impacts Rated Range more dramatically than perhaps some of us with 90kWh batteries see in more moderate climates.
�
Mar 11, 2016
Beryl After 3 months, 255 estimated range @ 90% is where it has stopped declining on my S90D -- a 2 mile loss since delivery. Spreadsheet at link.
Tesla Range Tracking - Google Sheets�
Mar 11, 2016
chriSharek This looks like the first good news in this entire thread!�
Mar 11, 2016
ztodd I just took delivery of my S90D 9 days ago. My 90% charge has been consistently between 265 and 267. I haven't tried 100% yet, but I don't understand why I'd be getting about 10 miles more for the same battery pack. I'm on 2.13.77.�
Mar 11, 2016
msnow That's VERY good 90% numbers for 3 months. Have you ever done a 100% charge? Your spreadsheet shows "projected" not actual so maybe not.�
Mar 11, 2016
msnow Are you sure you are exactly on the 90% marker line? The Remote S iOS app lets you get it exactly on.�
Mar 11, 2016
Beryl Nope. All but one charge has been 90%.�
Mar 11, 2016
marin I just picked up a loaner 90D, and it's showing 267 at 90%. It's a fairly new build with 700 miles on the odo.
My personal car is a 90D, Oct '15 build. Showed 255 at 90% when new, and now it's at 250 at 90%.
Not sure why these newer cars might be showing 267. Newer pack revision?�
Mar 11, 2016
jeffro01 Better not be or Tesla is putting a new pack in my car....
Jeff�
Mar 11, 2016
msnow With you on that 100% Jeff.
@marin, @beryl- can you take a picture of your pack sticker and post it for us?
Tesla battery pack information is found on a sticker affixed to the front right side of the battery pack that can be seen when looking under your car from just behind the front right (passenger side) wheel.
It's easier to see if your suspension is in the high position.�
Mar 11, 2016
Marcira I don't know if this has been addressed, but do you think it would be useful to plot average energy consumption verse predicted range? I have noticed that when my average consumption drops, my predicted range after a 90% charge is better the next day.�
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