teslamotorclub: The M3 terrifies BMW part 3

gavine said: ?

I would rather see TM3 reservation holders who can't wait any longer buy a 330e than an ICE. At least they will be more inclined to buy a full BEV on their next purchase after that. We know that plug-in hybrid owners typically move to full BEVs on their next car because they now understand benefits of electric drive and realize that even the small range is usually enough for most commutes. They also learn that 200+ miles is typically way more than enough.
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I'd rather they drive a decent PHEV. Not a PHEV which will switch to gas on a trip across town in my medium sized city. Get a Volt. Heck, a Ford Fusion Energi would be better. 14 miles is pathetic.
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mod note: Three posts moved to snippiness for troll-calling (including quoted responses). Address the arguments, or ignore them if you find it more effective.
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AustinPowers said: ?

By the way, interestingly the D option seems to be almost a given for customers in Germany. According to the KBA statistic, the majority of Teslas registered in 2016 were of the D variant (all 25 Model X this year so far, and 781 out of 838 Model S total, 80 out of 80 in July)
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While I don't doubt that's true (there's snow in Germany and AWD is great in general), I wonder how much smaller that non-D share is than it could be, because Tesla has been really positioning the D as the only thing making sense for the past two years and giving it the most of the line-up. I mean, the non-D was even retired for a while entirely and has really been on the backburner until the recent push for lower cost in face of waning demand/strenghtening dollar...

There is no non-D Model X at all - and on the Model S side still only 60/75 are available as non-D. And it isn't that long ago when Tesla was pushing 70D as a low-end option and the only non-D was a weird 85. While 70 non-D has become since (and 75 now), only now really a significantly cheaper S60 is (again) available to create a entry price-point... that might change the odds a little for those looking to enter as low as possible?
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AnxietyRanger said: ?

While I don't doubt that's true (there's snow in Germany and AWD is great in general), I wonder how much smaller that non-D share is than it could be, because Tesla has been really positioning the D as the only thing making sense for the past two years and giving it the most of the line-up. I mean, the non-D was even retired for a while entirely and has really been on the backburner until the recent push for lower cost in face of waning demand/strenghtening dollar...

There is no non-D Model X at all - and on the Model S side still only 60/75 are available as non-D. And it isn't that long ago when Tesla was pushing 70D as a low-end option and the only non-D was a weird 85. While 70 non-D has become since (and 75 now), only now really a significantly cheaper S60 is (again) available to create a entry price-point... that might change the odds a little for those looking to enter as low as possible?
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Tesla seems to be pushing the AWD models because unlike in ICE cars they increase the range (albeit nominally). And that seems to be people's biggest concern when purchasing EVs these days. The side benefit for Tesla is it opens them up to a market of people who otherwise wouldn't consider their cars because of concerns (valid or not) about RWD and snow. AWD also puts power down a lot better in a car with as much torque and horsepower as the Tesla has.

Basically a generation of American buyers has been trained by the likes of BMW and MB that traditionally RWD cars can only be driven in snow with AWD and snow tires be damned. I'm not sure Tesla had much choice but to follow along if they wanted those buyers, regardless of the technical merits. I'm also not sure its the same calculus in Germany/Europe - perhaps members from that area can chime in.
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asus389 said: ?

A generation of American buyers has been trained by the likes of BMW and MB that traditionally RWD cars can only be driven in snow with AWD and snow tires be damned.
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I like the idea of AWD and snow tyres.
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asus389 said: ?

Tesla seems to be pushing the AWD models because they increase the range (albeit nominally). And that seems to be people's biggest concern when purchasing EVs these days. The side benefit for Tesla is it opens them up to a market of people who otherwise wouldn't consider their cars because of concerns (valid or not) about RWD and snow. AWD also puts power down a lot better in a car with as much torque and horsepower as the Tesla has.
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Sure, I have no disagreement over that - Tesla is pushing AWD and has good reason for it.

However, I guess cost issues are pushing them to keeping the low-end open with RWD... it seemed for a while they'd drop RWD altogether (indeed, they did), but now have been expanding it instead.
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EaglesPDX said: ?

Chuckle...20 pages of hysterical rants over the BMW 330e say otherwise. BMW's 330e is for people who want to cut their GHG emissions now by 30-100% vs. three years from now, run on pure EV for 60% of their driving and (so important to some Tesla fans) have a "performance" car that can do red light racing and merge lane mania plus have the status of being expensive as a Tesla.

72 MPGe for the 330e
89 MPGe for Tesla 70D.

The 330e's 14 miles on pure EV would mean, even charging just from home, average person (12.6 mile one way commute) could do their AM commute as an EV cutting their daily emissions by 60%. Work charging and they are 100% EV for 50% of their driving. Likely near 80% of their driving (local market, kids school and sports) in EV mode. Nice work and high tec, high status car (important issues to many Tesla and BMW owners alike).

The only thing "crippled" is the one-dimensional thinking of some Teslarati snobs.
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Wait... Since when is 50%, 60%, and 80% all equal? I'd rather walk, ride a bike, or take the bus than spend my dough on a BMW 330e. This isn't snobbery -- it's common damned sense!
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SageBrush said: ?

I like the idea of AWD and snow tyres.
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Sure, I do too. But walk into any BMW dealer in the northern states and they will happily lease you an AWD car with all season tires and tell you it will be fine. Very few people want to buy a second set of tires for a car they are renting for 3 years, regardless of how many wheels are driven - even if thats the safe/proper thing to do.

Ironically, every time there is a big snow storm here its mainly AWD cars/SUVs in the ditch with all season tires.
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EaglesPDX said: ?

The "premise" of this thread is "M3 Terrifies BMW".

Just the opposite of course as the BMW notes. The T3 gives BMW a great selling point for a performance plug-in hybrid that would allow someone to have a high priced, high performance status car like a Tesla now and not have the range anxiety issues.

The T3 is a marketing opportunity for BMW. It's exactly what Tesla wants, other car mfg's building electric cars, cutting emissions. More people buy any of BMW's four electric vehicles, the more BMW will make and sell and the fewer emissions.

The publicity around the T3 makes people consider BMW 300e.
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As others have already told you, but perhaps you didn't notice, what Tesla Motors wants is for established traditional automobile manufacturers such as BMW to STOP building cars that require exhaust pipes entirely. Not REDUCE their emissions -- but ELIMINATE them. What you state is NOT the actual mission of the company. Rather than a valid alternative, it is more aptly referred to as a stopgap maneuver at best.
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EaglesPDX said: ?

Because, as BMW points out, you can buy it now, get great "performance", get status of expensive purchase and get as low CHG emissions as a T3.
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It would be better to get the Ford Fusion Energi or Chevrolet VOLT. Heck, better still to get a Fiat 500e, Ford Focus Electric, or Nissan LEAF.
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EaglesPDX said: ?

You do understand that the MPGe range I quoted for the 330e is only for the battery portion of the drive, right?

You do understand that the MPGe range of 14 miles is greater than average commute of 12.6 miles, right?

You do understand that if you go further and faster in a T3, it gets much worse for the Tesla as you start needing to change plans to accommodate location and availability of charging stations and the time it will require to charge, right?

You do understand that a top 20% income earner could buy a BMW300e now versus waiting two-three years for a T3 and cut their emissions by 80% over the next two-three years, right?

You do understand that cutting GHG emissions is the goal, right?
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You do realize that commutes typically go BOTH ways, right? You do realize that even today, people still manage to run out of gas, right? You do realize that you keep switching around your percentages, right? You do understand the goal is elimination of greenhouse gas emissions, right? You do realize that sarcasm only works when you are correct, right?
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EaglesPDX said: ?

You do understand that cutting GHG emissions is the goal, right?
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SageBrush said: ?

For whom ?
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Probably 90% of Tesla buyers. Because Tesla is new, very expensive and relatively rare, there are probably 10% of Tesla buyers who do it for status and are actually climate science deniers. Probably 100% of BMW 300e buyers who are choosing pay more so they can drive a "performance" BMW and still cut their GHG to near zero.

It's OK that Tesla derives 10% of sales from high income climate science denier customers buying on pure status and "performance" terms as otherwise those folks would be doing their aggressive driving in something else and doing a lot of polluting.

Even better that BMW is able to provide zero emissions capable plug-in's for people who would never buy a pure EV, even a Tesla. Even better that BMW also provides a nice all EV vehicle that people can buy for 90% of their driving.

SageBrush said: ?

Head over to the the BMW forums for an hour and tell me what fraction of posts over the past week mention AGW is some way other than to deny it's existence.
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Or on any of the status symbol aggressive driving forums. But you are asking the wrong question and supplying the wrong answer. What are the major mfgs' doing to to fill the demand of those who do want to cut GHG but don't want a pure EV with the charge and range issues?

BMW's 300e is a response that Tesla was founded upon creating. Getting the world's car mfg's to build low emissions vehicles. The fear and loathing that creates in some of the Teslerati , as demonstrated by the hysterical overwrought comments on this thread denouncing the BMW 300e buyers, is totally misplaced vs. Tesla's founding principles.
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Takumi said: ?

On a serious note, how does the 330e fare against the i3?
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Not too good, really... Have a look HERE.
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EaglesPDX said: ?

Most hysterics think their fears and subsequent behavior are justified. In this case, a performance car with a 72 MPGe now vs. a performance car with an 89 MPGe later, there's no reason for the hysteria of a buyer choosing one excellent low emissions purchase over another.

The more BMW sells high MPGe vehicles, the better it is for the environment, better for everyone who wants to see more low emissions vehicles on the road. If BMW can sell a bunch of 300e's now, it will be encouraged to design and build more low emissions vehicles. In 2019 when a person can purchase a T3 in a reasonable time (90 days), if BMW is encouraged by 300e sales, the 2019 300e could have an EV range of 35 miles and cover 100% of most people's commute and around town basic driving.

Some Teslerati have hysterical fears over BMW and other mfg's offering plug in vehicles when that is exactly what we want Tesla's success to accomplish. They have taken their eyes off the prize (cutting CHG emissions) for a childish defense of their sandbox at the expense of reducing GHG every way we can as fast as we can.
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It would truly suck if the only capable fully electric cars on the market were BMWs. Luckily, they don't make any. And they aren't going to do so for many, many years. So, no... I don't harbor that particular fear at all.

And seeing as even BMW fans are not quite so stupid as to purchase the 330e in volume, there is no way in [HECK] they are going to sell very many of them. BMW knows that they will move more of their diesel powered cars instead. And BMW is fine with that. But at least people who live in the restricted city center of London or Paris will be able to reach the outskirts of town on electric power before burning gasoline the rest of the way.
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Red Sage said: ?

It would be better to get the Ford Fusion Energi or Chevrolet VOLT. Heck, better still to get a Fiat 500e, Ford Focus Electric, or Nissan LEAF.
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Not if you want the status of a high priced BMW "performance" vehicle to impress the public with your low emissions, high income and aggressive driving. For that you'd want a BMW 300e or BMWi8.

Nice that BMW offers cars for people who want to do their part with GHG while still playing the car status game.

This terrifies some of the Teslarati because, I guess, they fear it will undercut Tesla's full EV sales. That BMW was specifically targeting Tesla buyers over the 2-3 year wait for the T3 is not the threat to Tesla that they fear. At least not at this stage of Tesla's development where Tesla won't even ship 500,000 cars for years.

BMW, Ford, Nissan, Toyota et al are providing 70% of the demand for great low emissions hybrids, plug-ins and pure EV's. The Teslarti fear and loathing we see here are totally misplaced and unjustified.
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EaglesPDX said: ?

Not if you want the status of a high priced BMW "performance" vehicle to impress the public with your low emissions, high income and aggressive driving. For that you'd want a BMW 300e or BMWi8.

Nice that BMW offers cars for people who want to do their part with GHG while still playing the car status game.

This terrifies some of the Teslarati because, I guess, they fear it will undercut Tesla's full EV sales. That BMW was specifically targeting Tesla buyers over the 2-3 year wait for the T3 is not the threat to Tesla that they fear. At least not at this stage of Tesla's development where Tesla won't even ship 500,000 cars for years.

BMW, Ford, Nissan, Toyota et al are providing 70% of the demand for great low emissions hybrids, plug-ins and pure EV's. The Teslarti fear and loathing we see here are totally misplaced and unjustified.
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Sorry, no... 'Status' does nothing whatsoever to clean up the environment. The BMW 330e accomplishes as much as moving seven miles closer to your job to reduce your commute, and daily BMW ICE emissions.

There will be no undercutting of anything but BMW, Lexus, Cadillac, Acura, Jaguar, Infiniti, and Mercedes-Benz sales once the Tesla Model ? arrives. And plenty of BMW, Lexus, Cadillac, Acura, Jaguar, Infiniti, and Mercedes-Benz fans will be happy to wait until it does.
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EaglesPDX said: ?

BMW, Ford, Nissan, Toyota et al are providing 70% of the demand for great low emissions hybrids, plug-ins and pure EV's. The Teslarti fear and loathing we see here are totally misplaced and unjustified
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I'm probably closest to your side of this pissing match than anybody else active in this thread and I also think you are barking up the wrong tree.

Teslarati are not afraid of the Big, Bad Wolf puppy that is BMW electrification. They do however go out of their way to denigrate the baby step for reasons I don't understand and find annoying. A little grace would be most welcome. And as for the BWW slant that TM3 wannabees should consider a BMW330e today rather than wait --- well, think about it: what *else* are they going to pitch ?!

It is time for everybody to unwind their [deleted]. It is just an advert after all. I do admit though that the thought of an expensive BMW fueling up at a 110v plug to drive home felt like an insider joke. Perhaps the firm that made the advert are seekret Tesla moles ? ;-)
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Red Sage said: ?

As others have already told you, but perhaps you didn't notice, what Tesla Motors wants is for established traditional automobile manufacturers such as BMW to STOP building cars that require exhaust pipes entirely. Not REDUCE their emissions -- but ELIMINATE them. What you state is NOT the actual mission of the company. Rather than a valid alternative, it is more aptly referred to as a stopgap maneuver at best.
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If true then I find it misguided. LESS pollution has value in proportion to the decrease.
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SageBrush said: ?

They do however go out of their way to denigrate the baby step for reasons I don't understand and find annoying. A little grace would be most welcome.
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Well, I don't mean to annoy -- YOU -- but I hoped that I had done a good job of explaining my position. I take issue with someone taking baby steps when they know they should be in a race. BMW knows how to get more fully electric range. All they have to do is add more battery pack capacity. They came to that conclusion for the i3, but somehow didn't realize that was the case with the 330e. That saddens me.

As for grace... My standard issue response to such a request is typically, "I'm an American. That means I have no class." But, I feel something more is needed here. From my point of view, if someone doesn't want to be corrected in public, they shouldn't say stupid things... in PUBLIC. This entire advertisement campaign by BMW is pretty friggin' stupid, for a lot of reasons. And the configuration of the BMW 330e is also rather stupid. It would be unfair and disingenuous of me to 'soften the blow' and say, "At least you tried..." Because I know that, honestly...? BMW didn't try at all.

I'm Red Sage, your Friendly Neighborhood Over-the-Top Optimistic Tesla Motors Certified Apologist Fanboy, and I approve this message.

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SageBrush said: ?

If true then I find it misguided. LESS pollution has value in proportion to the decrease.
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I've heard smokers and alcoholics say the same thing...
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SageBrush said: ?

If true then I find it misguided. LESS pollution has value in proportion to the decrease.
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Hybrids and plug-in hybrids are, in my opinion, part of the Transition, not the Solution. They are the slow-to-start, foot-dragging, kicking-and-screaming, top-of-their-lungs-denying, last ditch effort by traditional automobile manufacturers to make it seem as if they are sincere when claiming, "Look! We're trying! We're REALLY doing our best over here! But those long-haired barefoot unwashed hippie tree-huggers have us over a barrel! It's all we can do to survive! Please, for the love of all that is holy -- let us keep building ICE vehicles!" I'm... not convinced. Are you? Really?
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Red Sage said: ?

Well, I don't mean to annoy -- YOU -- but I hoped that I had done a good job of explaining my position
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No worries RedSage -- I find your posts a delight and most informative.
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Red Sage said: ?

I'm... not convinced. Are you? Really?
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I hear ya, but I suppose I'm more willing to accept that part of the drag is consumer preference.
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EaglesPDX said: ?

This terrifies some of the Teslarati
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No one participating in this thread is "terrified" of any BMW with a battery. Regardless of how many times you make that claim, it is not true. Even if BMW made a car with a large battery comparable to the battery sizes that Tesla has been producing for 8 years now, no one here would be "terrified" of BMW. But it is obvious that BMW is years away from making a car with a battery size comparable to what Tesla started producing 8 years ago.

I"m not "terrified" of BMW; the cars they make are too mundane and over-hyped to elicit such a reaction.
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SageBrush said: ?

I suppose I'm more willing to accept that part of the drag is consumer preference.
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You have to give consumers more choices first then see what their preferences are. You cannot keep putting out cheap (as in quality), strange looking cars and expect people to accept them.
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ohmman said: ?

mod note: Three posts moved to snippiness for troll-calling (including quoted responses). Address the arguments, or ignore them if you find it more effective.
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Silver Lining... @EaglesPDX helped me discover the TMC "ignore" function!
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SageBrush said: ?

I hear ya, but I suppose I'm more willing to accept that part of the drag is consumer preference.
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Well, sure. But that consumer preference is largely by the uninitiated. With NADA affiliates blocking Tesla Motors' preferred business model in multiple States, so that test drives cannot be given and pricing cannot be discussed, some don't have a proper frame of reference. And with traditional automobile manufacturers continually reinforcing the notion that a car with a plug simply 'isn't as good' as gasoline power alone, that is another false perception. I also don't like when people claim any plug-in hybrid is 'The Best of Both Worlds!' when it is so obviously hobbled on both fronts. Where is the Ford Mustang Energi Plug-In Hybrid with 120 miles of fully electric range and 500 miles overall range that does 0-60 MPH in 3.5 seconds and completes the quarter mile in 9.8 seconds while clocking 120 MPGe? That would be a car I would happily champion -- and possibly buy!
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JeffK said: ?

You have to give consumers more choices first then see what their preferences are. You cannot keep putting out cheap strange looking cars and expect people to accept them.
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Vote with your dollars; everybody else does. Manufacturers will either respond or go out of business.

I get my angst up a *whole* lot more over anti-competitive actions against Tesla than manufacturers who choose to hedge their electrification offers.
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Odebek said: ?

Silver Lining... @EaglesPDX helped me discover the TMC "ignore" function!
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The thing is with "ignore," is that if I ignored someone, then I wouldn't know why I dislike them.
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S'toon said: ?

The thing is with "ignore," is that if I ignored someone, then I wouldn't know why I dislike them.
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Luckily, the forum software puts a notice on the page that reads 'Show Ignored Content' as an active link... So, you can remind yourself why you don't want to see their stuff, anytime you come across it!
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As a point of interest, probably only to me, is that BMW sells cars because it advertises. It probably advertises more than many others and advertises to increase the perceived value of its product so they can charge more. Well, of course, advertising costs a lot of money.

And the comparison of their car to a car made by a company that doesn't need to advertise at all because of what it has, which sells so many that you actually have to "wait", is really funny. BMW has to advertise to move the cars it makes which are *already here*, sitting at the dealer near you, waiting, waiting....
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roblab said: ?

As a point of interest, probably only to me, is that BMW sells cars because it advertises. It probably advertises more than many others and advertises to increase the perceived value of its product so they can charge more. Well, of course, advertising costs a lot of money.

And the comparison of their car to a car made by a company that doesn't need to advertise at all because of what it has, which sells so many that you actually have to "wait", is really funny. BMW has to advertise to move the cars it makes which are *already here*, sitting at the dealer near you, waiting, waiting....
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Yes. A very good point. It sort of really throws a big, huge monkey wrench into the works for advertising firms.

I like to point out how I saw a commercial for the Maserati Ghibli during the NFL Playoffs last season. Probably cost around $3,000,000 to air it... and close to $1,000,000 to produce it... And it seems that sales through July 2016 have... slowed, compared to 2015.

I tend to think that advertising firms are better at promoting themselves than any of their Clients.

Print, radio, television, internet... So much spent on advertising. But what exactly do those dollars buy? Because Maserati has sold 6,013 vehicles in the US, while Tesla Motors has sold 22,500 over the same time period this year.

Does 'exclusivity' somehow have more value than sales, somehow? Does advertising give you exclusivity? Wouldn't you be even more exclusive, if you told no one about your products?
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I do feel like I belong to an exclusive club, knowing what we know... knowing how clueless the rest of the world is to something so big, so revolutionary... knowing that the skeptics will soon be silenced... knowing that no other company comes close to Tesla... knowing that I'm already in line to receive one of the world's most advanced and superior products in the very near future... knowing that I'm about to experience the Tesla grin, daily! Quite a privilege!
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S?XY P100D said: ?

I do feel like I belong to an exclusive club, knowing what we know... knowing how clueless the rest of the world is to something so big, so revolutionary... knowing that the skeptics will soon be silenced... knowing that no other company comes close to Tesla... knowing that I'm already in line to receive one of the world's most advanced and superior products in the very near future... knowing that I'm about to experience the Tesla grin, daily! Quite a privilege!
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I love this post. Here is the thing, though: as much as I agree with your sentiments, I like Tesla/SC/SpaceX/GF the company even more.

Where the hell did my cynical, oldish guy attitude walk off to ?
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Red Sage said: ?

Sorry, no... 'Status' does nothing whatsoever to clean up the environment.
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Actually it does. Among those who are big on reducing GHG, the more sustainable one's lifestyle, net zero home and car, it definitely confers status.

SageBrush said: ?

There will be no undercutting of anything but BMW, Lexus, Cadillac, Acura, Jaguar, Infiniti, and Mercedes-Benz sales once the Tesla Model ? arrives..
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You've still got it backward. The T3 is already helping to boost sales of plug-in hybrids from other mfg.s and will continue to do so once it is delivered. That is actually a mission for Tesla, to boost low emission vehicles of all car mfg. That Tesla is succeeding at its mission and that the BMW 300e is part of that success terrifies some of the Teslarati who take a small provincial view of moving to low emissions automobiles.
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EaglesPDX said: ?

Actually it does. Among those who are big on reducing GHG, the more sustainable one's lifestyle, net zero home and car, it definitely confers status.
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Once more, 'status' is of no consequence because it is vain, insubstantial, and ephemeral -- therefore inconsequential.

EaglesPDX said: ?

You've still got it backward. The T3 is already helping to boost sales of plug-in hybrids from other mfg.s and will continue to do so once it is delivered. That is actually a mission for Tesla, to boost low emission vehicles of all car mfg. That Tesla is succeeding at its mission and that the BMW 300e is part of that success terrifies some of the Teslarati who take a small provincial view of moving to low emissions automobiles.
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No. What boosted sales of high end hybrids is automotive marketing executives learning that most Prius buyers were formerly Lexus owners. You will find no literature from Tesla Motors that advocates 'reducing' emissions from vehicles over eliminating them entirely. There is no terror involved beyond having to reply to your ridiculous comments any further.
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EaglesPDX said: ?

You've still got it backward. The T3 is already helping to boost sales of plug-in hybrids from other mfg.s and will continue to do so once it is delivered. That is actually a mission for Tesla, to boost low emission vehicles of all car mfg. That Tesla is succeeding at its mission and that the BMW 300e is part of that success terrifies some of the Teslarati who take a small provincial view of moving to low emissions automobiles.
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Where has Tesla actually said their mission is to boost low emission vehicles?

Our goal when we created Tesla a decade ago was the same as it is today: to accelerate the advent of sustainable transport by bringing compelling mass market electric cars to market as soon as possible.

The Mission of Tesla

I guess I don't pay much attention to cars but I never heard of the BMW 300e until you mentioned it here. I must be in the wrong sample group. Another plug-in hybrid doesn't interest me.
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Takumi said: ?

Guys, can we all get our heads together and form a company? The troll is eating up whatever you're feeding it. I'm pretty sure we'd kill in the marketplace!

On a serious note, how does the 330e fare against the i3?
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First chart -
USA Electric Car Sales Up 48% In July
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The reason BMW should be terrified of the Model 3 is that the steering rack in the X is better than those in BMWs, and the Model 3 uses the same supplier for that part.
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EaglesPDX said: ?

The T3 is already helping to boost sales of plug-in hybrids from other mfg.s and will continue to do so once it is delivered. That is actually a mission for Tesla, to boost low emission vehicles of all car mfg. That Tesla is succeeding at its mission and that the BMW 300e is part of that success terrifies some of the Teslarati who take a small provincial view of moving to low emissions automobiles.
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EaglesPDX, if you are really interested in seeking some mutual understanding and dialogue in conversation, may I suggest you discontinue the notion that people here are attacking BMW's EV efforts because they are terrified of them. I think in your heart of hearts, even you know that is probably not a very big motivation for anyone here - if it is a motivation at all. Get it out of the way, call it a joke gone on long enough or an exaggeration in the heat of the moment, or don't call it anything, but let's move on to the actual beef. Just my opinion and suggestion, of course.

IMO it is quite different to feel people are taking "a small provincial view of moving to low emissions automobiles" than to outright assert they are fearful of BMW. The argument about a small view is far more debatable and should prove more fruitful.

In that vein, to try and steer back:

a) Should we be applauding BMW for their efforts in reducing emissions with the PHEVs and BEVs they currently have (e.g. 330e, i3...)? Is it a "a small provincial view of moving to low emissions automobiles" for disliking/dismissing them? Or is it an understandable or even "the right" view to be annoyed at BMW for actually delaying/prolonging the move away from ICE, arguing that they are a part of the problem, not the solution?

b) Is BMW right/ridiculous/whatever in advertising the 330e to the people waiting for a Model 3? Is it a valid advertisement that we in our EV bubble are just not seeing right, that will help move cars or even help reduce emissions (more than without that ad would happen)? Is BMW merely seeing a potential target market in Model 3 wait-listers and engaging in perfectly normal marketing? Are they even onto a viral winner, given how much talk the ads are generating? Or, indeed, is it a silly idea that indeed makes BMW look fearful (or should we even conclude they are fearful) and gives unwise attention to a competitor and makes no footprint impression anyway?

c) What does Tesla the company think of these kinds of efforts? Both in public (the vision) and in private (the business)?

I would argue there is a real merited debate over these kinds of questions to be had, than the rather unsupportable notion that BMWs very limited - and lately even more delayed (2021?) - efforts are cause of competitive concern for "Teslarati". BMW's efforts are just so, so very small, it is very hard to see how the idea of fear could possibly play into even the most ardent Tesla-only fans thinking, let alone a pure-BEV fans who'd actually like to buy great EVs from whomever (unless we consider the wholly different fear of feeling that BMW's etc. antics are delaying the onset of pure BEV domination, which fear might actually contribute to the annoyed reaction in some manner).

I have no opinion on the success of these BMW ads. I can see it go in any direction. Interesting to see. Personally I found them lame. Stand on your own merits and shoulders, IMO, not on others. But sure, they can work. Bad ads sometimes do.

I have to disagree with you on Tesla's mission, though: I think the company's whole stated worldview hinges of compelling battery electric vehicles entering the market. The company has been driven, in public at least, by dislike for transitional efforts like the 330e and instead going for big bold moves that change the world much more quickly - and being the example, the catalyst for that big bold change. Tesla is not about only reducing emissions, their worldview obviously is removing them from running of the car entirely, so that improvements in energy production wherever (e.g. solar) can keep reducing the overall footprint indefinitely - and at the very, very least, their worldview is creating compelling battery electric cars (and no weirdmobiles). I would argue they'd say 330e and i3 as they stand are not compelling in that department.

While only Tesla can answer what they as a company want, I thus sincerely doubt what they - vision-wise, at least - want is a road to the future paved with 330e's. I would wager their vision would rather see a world where even major manufacturer is gearing up efforts similar to Superchargers and Model 3 and Gigafactory. Instead from BMW and other high-end Germans we have very limited battery range or very limited production/marketing vehicles and some plans for Model S/X competition (mind you, not Model 3, no known Gigafactory solution, no known Supercharger network) in two-three (or in the case of BMW, five) years time. Maybe business-wise Tesla is relishing the situation, it does seem to give them quite a long headstart for selling BEVs to the masses.

Again, I think a lot of people here are more willing to hand some applause to the non-Germans. Go Bolt, Go Leaf. Outside of the PHEV/EREV label debate, even Volt gets a better rapport here than a 330e and Volt/Bolt actually is positioned to compete with Tesla in at least regional sales figures (Volt is actually a competent PHEV, unlike some). At least there is some effort there! But what we've so far seen come from the land of the autobahn is dragging their EV heels. A lot of us here, I think, are long-time buyers of German automobiles. I've bought 10+ high-end Germans, personally. If a lot of us are now standing up and saying we're no longer doing that because they used to be the future and now they are the past, maybe the Germans should listen.

As a final footnote, after reading some of this conversation I actually headed on to BMW's website last night and downloaded their 330e materials (advertisement success!). As I was looking its special features, like the blue eDrive trim under the doors and their attempts at sound insipired and forward-thinking (and with stuff like a man with a giant blue-glowing charging station standing in front of his house - for what, a 110V/240V wall-plug), I genuinely just felt sad. It was a sad effort to put a seriously overestated and in-your-face label on what really is such a limited effort. At least the car outside looks pretty normal, which can't be said of the i3. I mean, maybe the average Joe buys into that hyperbole, but anyone knowing better is just sad of what has become of these brands that used to be the face of genuine progress. German marketing faszination is just so much easier to buy into when it promotes real advantages, it seems.

Instead of progress, they've become a joke.

I'd rather BMW didn't try to dress it up so much, because like this ad, to me it just makes a perfectly serviceable PHEV drivetrain seem idiotic because they tried to make it into something it is not (instead of a serviceable drivetrain, trying to make it seem like the future). I'd rather they'd just market it lowkey, because it is a lowkey thing.

This made me appreciate Tesla's efforts even more, because they are based actually making big bold changes in what the cars actually are and do, while making normal cars with only functional differences in appearance. BMWs EV attempts are more akin to putting futuristic lipstick on a pig. If they were great EVs then maybe I could look past all that lipstick and appreciate it as a somewhat appropriate styling, but now it just feels seriously sad to me. When you can't win on features, dress it up, is a sure sign of failure in my worldview.

Very, very uninspirational, Germans. Keine Vorsprung, to expand the comment.
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Red Sage said: ?

Once more, 'status' is of no consequence because it is vain, insubstantial, and ephemeral -- therefore inconsequential.
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Yet it is responsible for likely 10-20% of Tesla sales and for other expensive, "performance" EV's like BMW's i8. The T3 will make the Tesla "common" and even further boost the sales of expensive status conveying plug in hybrids like the 300e and i8.

Red Sage said: ?

What boosted sales of high end hybrids is automotive marketing executives learning that most Prius buyers were formerly Lexus owners.
Click to expand...

What boosted sales of high end hybrids was people with money and need for status and who wanted to cut their GHG emissions. The two are not mutually exclusive as we see with even the Prius whose demographic is higher income, higher education level.

And don't leave out government regulations which required automakers to come up with low emission vehicles, lent Tesla money to get started, provided tax incentives etc.

But this topic is why are a small group of Teslerati so terrified of BMW using the long wait for the T3 to sell BMW's 300e? 300e is a plug-in hybrid that a person could use to cut their GHG by 80% while having the status of an expensive car, "performance" and the range and refuel security of an ICE. To the torch bearing Teslerati this is apostasy, the 300e a tool of the devil and other various purity of EV faith issues.

Someone who is going to buy a car now and who chooses the low emissions BMW 300e is making a choice that supports Tesla's mission "to accelerate the advent of sustainable transport ". BMW300e does just that.
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EaglesPDX said: ?

...people with ... need for status.
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Man, you've said this a bunch in this thread. I think you've single-handedly brought up "status" in this thread more than I've seen in all the other threads on this forum combined in the 3.5 years I've been on it.

At this point I'm reading your posts primarily for entertainment value... but I suspect I know why the BMW thing is such a hot button for you now.
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EaglesPDX said: ?

And don't leave out government regulations which required automakers to come up with low emission vehicles, lent Tesla money to get started, provided tax incentives etc.
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Of course Ford got ~$6B out of that same program and we got the Ford Focus EV for it and no money back for 24 years. Imagine what Tesla could have done with $6B
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scaesare said: ?

Man, you've said this a bunch in this thread. I think you've single-handedly brought up "status" in this thread more than I've seen in all the other threads on this forum combined in the 3.5 years I've been on it.

At this point I'm reading your posts primarily for entertainment value... but I suspect I know why the BMW thing is such a hot button for you now.
Click to expand...

I really considered saying nearly that exact same thing, but I decided not to because, as Ron White pointed out, there's some things you just can't fix.

And after all...
There are none so blind as those who will not see.
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EaglesPDX said: ?

The T3 is already helping to boost sales of plug-in hybrids from other mfg...
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Pure speculation based on no evidence. There is no rational way to connect Tesla's announcement of the Model 3 five months ago to an increase in plug-in hybrid sales.

Red Sage said: ?

You will find no literature from Tesla Motors that advocates 'reducing' emissions from vehicles over eliminating them entirely.
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I agree. @CuriousG also pointed out that @EaglesPDX does not appear to understand what Tesla Motors mission actually is.

EaglesPDX said: ?

[status] is responsible for likely 10-20% of Tesla sales...
Click to expand...

More speculation based on no data. Repeatedly making stuff up does nothing to support your erroneous position, nor does your repeated and heavy-handed use of sarcasm to disparage posts by others. Try supporting your position using facts and rational analysis, if possible.
�

Fascinating to see this thread has managed over 23 pages even though everyone here seems to agree on the premise - except for EaglesPDX that is. If it wasn't for him and his aggressive ranting posts every now and then, this thread would have been dead long ago.
So yes, I too read his posts for pure entertainment value because none of it can be taken seriously - other than the notion that more PHEVs now is better for the environment than more ICEs. But that's hardly a revelation now is it?

Oh and @EaglesPDX: I am German, Bavarian even. As you can see from my Avatar, I currently drive a BMW. I have always been a big fan of BMW, friends of mine work for BMW. So in essence, I am as pro-BMW from every angle as you can probably get.
Yet even I think that
a) these BMW commercials are crap and total bull****
b) BMW indeed seems very scared by Tesla's success
c) BMW doesn't seem to have a clue about how important BEVs will become - especially in contrast to Mercedes, VW and Audi, who have made the change to BEVs a high priority goal on their agenda, and seem really eager to get it right this time.
No commitment like that at all from BMW at the moment. Yes, the i3 is available with a bigger battery now. But is still an impractical, fugly excuse for a BEV. Honestly, if I wanted a good allrounder BEV in that price range, I would buy the e-Golf.

And no, as much as I love my 3-series BMW, I would never - ever - dream of buying a 330e. Because it
a) is totally overpriced (status by the way is not defined by buying overpriced goods, it is defined by showing that you are able to afford goods that, though maybe expensive, are worth their price - the 330e is not)
b) offers an EV-only range that is smaller than my daily one-way commute
c) has a real-life MPG that is far from what you quoted.

MPG ratings by the manufacturers are, as we have seen too many times in recent history, not worth the paper they are written on.
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Saghost said: ?

Where are you going with this? Some EV failures will leave you without heat, some will leave full heating available.

Some ICE failures will leave you without heat, some will leave nearly full heating available.

I'd argue that it's much more likely to have an ICE problem that leaves you stranded without heat, given how integrated the heating is with the engine and the lower reliability of the parts involved.
Click to expand...

Where was I going with this?

I was talking about range. See my post from earlier:

The M3 terrifies BMW

Someone suggested that I trade in my MS for a leaf to hold me over till the 3 arrives. I'm not sure where your ICE comparison comes from.
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SageBrush said: ?

I love this post. Here is the thing, though: as much as I agree with your sentiments, I like Tesla/SC/SpaceX/GF the company even more.

Where the hell did my cynical, oldish guy attitude walk off to ?
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This hits a spot for me. 53 years old and usually little patience for the phoniness that accompanies auto dealerships. I do not let them push me into a deal I am not happy with and generally feel ripped off anyway when I leave the showroom. And yet I love Tesla sales rep.'s and the company in general. It's an odd feeling for me.
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S?XY P100D said: ?

I do feel like I belong to an exclusive club, knowing what we know... knowing how clueless the rest of the world is to something so big, so revolutionary... knowing that the skeptics will soon be silenced... knowing that no other company comes close to Tesla... knowing that I'm already in line to receive one of the world's most advanced and superior products in the very near future... knowing that I'm about to experience the Tesla grin, daily! Quite a privilege!
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Very well said. With an S on order I will soon be driving a tech. marvel
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Red Sage said: ?

If you want to be 'Rich and BALLIN'...
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I have to start working this phrase into my normal vocabulary. Always learning new stuff here on TMC!

RT
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jerry33 said: ?

Usually you advertise what you are weakest at. Examples: High quality, because otherwise people would just assume your products had that characteristic. A real estate development named Sunny Valley is likely to be located in a fog belt.
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So very true. When I lived in Nevada, there was a development called The Lakes, it had a couple of concrete puddles that were ideal breeding grounds for mosquitoes. They attempted to control them with larvae-eating fish, but the heat killed the fish as fast as they could be stocked.

Not impressed with BMWs efforts. I've been waiting a decade, a few more years is no problem.
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scaesare said: ?

Man, you've said this a bunch in this thread. I think you've single-handedly brought up "status" in this thread more than I've seen in all the other threads on this forum combined in the 3.5 years I've been on it.

At this point I'm reading your posts primarily for entertainment value... but I suspect I know why the BMW thing is such a hot button for you now.
Click to expand...

I thought it was obvious now. He has P'ness envy. Errrr P90.
�

God. After the FABULOUS POST by @AnxietyRanger , I thought for certain I'd be done with this thread... So much for that idea.

EaglesPDX said: ?

Yet it is responsible for likely 10-20% of Tesla sales and for other expensive, "performance" EV's like BMW's i8.
Click to expand...

Please, do provide verification for that percentage. Also, take note that the BMW i8 currently outsells the 330e by around 4:1. Just as the Tesla Model S outsells the Nissan LEAF by more than 2:1. Could be that people who enjoy 'status' have better things to do with their money?

EaglesPDX said: ?

The T3 will make the Tesla "common" and even further boost the sales of expensive status conveying plug in hybrids like the 300e and i8.
Click to expand...

Uhm... No. The BMW 330e will probably be canceled before the Model ? arrives on the market. BMW has to do... BETTER. They have already announced the i3 will be BETTER.

EaglesPDX said: ?

What boosted sales of high end hybrids was people with money and need for status and who wanted to cut their GHG emissions. The two are not mutually exclusive as we see with even the Prius whose demographic is higher income, higher education level.
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That's funny. Most Prius owners say that as gasoline went over four bucks a gallon they simply got fed up with gas guzzling behemoths. It doesn't take much education to realize that you'd rather spend your hard earned money on lunch than gasoline.

EaglesPDX said: ?

And don't leave out government regulations which required automakers to come up with low emission vehicles, lent Tesla money to get started, provided tax incentives etc.
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You mean the regulations that have been in place for forty years and regularly strengthened? I'm pretty sure that those weren't a surprise to anyone. Yet, they still continued to build gas guzzling behemoths that blew smoke.

Tesla Motors had already been 'started' by private investors, and further funding by way of an IPO on the stock market. Elon Musk has said multiple times that the company would have managed to release the Model S even without the loan they got from the Department of Energy. And the tax incentives were in place before Tesla Motors was even founded. It's just that it was 'understood' that none of the traditional automobile manufacturers would earnestly take advantage of them to actually expand the presence of alternative fuel vehicles in any meaningful manner.

EaglesPDX said: ?

But this topic is why are a small group of Teslerati so terrified of BMW using the long wait for the T3 to sell BMW's 300e? 300e is a plug-in hybrid that a person could use to cut their GHG by 80% while having the status of an expensive car, "performance" and the range and refuel security of an ICE. To the torch bearing Teslerati this is apostasy, the 300e a tool of the devil and other various purity of EV faith issues.
Click to expand...

In Los Angeles it is rare that someone has a daily commute of less than 7 miles one way. You keep using GHG -- izzat Greenhouse Gas Emissions? Howzabout you stop making up percentages and stuff, eh? There is no fear involved -- fear is the mind killer. Oh, wait... That's your problem!

EaglesPDX said: ?

Someone who is going to buy a car now and who chooses the low emissions BMW 300e is making a choice that supports Tesla's mission "to accelerate the advent of sustainable transport ". BMW300e does just that.
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The BMW 330e slows progress by being even worse than the BMW i3 at about the same price point. That is not frightening. It is saddening.
�

What I don't get is why anyone bothers to respond to EaglesPDX at all............It's a total waste of life.
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Red Sage said: ?

The BMW 330e slows progress by being even worse than the BMW i3 at about the same price point. That is not frightening. It is saddening.
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Well said. With such an anemic electric propulsion system, and lacking an AER sufficient to cover a full day or two of travel, the gas side is going to be used quite heavily.

My concern (prediction) is that most of the 330e's will stop being plugged in at all within 6 months of purchase. Why have the hassle to plug in AND gas up? Yes, it only takes seconds, but plug-in is optional (as stated in the commercial). Why bother?

In my opinion, in creating and pushing the 330e, BMW is doing a disservice to the planet and intentionally misleading (abusing?) its customer base to that end. Sad, indeed.
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03DSG said: ?

What I don't get is why anyone bothers to respond to EaglesPDX at all............It's a total waste of life.
Click to expand...

Red Sage said: ?

I'm thinking you may be correct... I just want to get in a few more jabs first, Coach!
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It's kinda like boxing against some of the greats of the past -- if you stepped into the ring with Mike Tyson or Muhammad Ali, expect to get hit. Meanwhile, Tyson and Ali were just in it for the sparring practice.

I think that's what's happening here -- someone with an inferior argument is swinging wildly (and missing horribly), while those who know what they're talking about just keep punching him in his proverbial face.
�

I'll be happy to be wrong, but the 330e feels to me like a HOV play/compliance vehicle for the US, perhaps a tax reduction vehicle for the UK.
�

You know, I'd have had more respect for BMW if they had made these two ads for the i3, not the 330e.
�

In Germany the taxpayers (together with BMW, Daimler and VAG) give a � 3K cashback bonus to every BMW PHEV buyer.

SageBrush said: ?

I'll be happy to be wrong, but the 330e feels to me like a HOV play/compliance vehicle for the US, perhaps a tax reduction vehicle for the UK.
Click to expand...

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PaulusdB said: ?

In Germany the taxpayers (together with BMW, Daimler and VAG) give a � 3K cashback bonus to every BMW PHEV buyer.
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Thanks.

Does the 3k Euro cover the incremental cost of the car over a straight ICE version ?
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Another wasted effort from BMW ... 2017 BMW 740e Priced At $89,100, Arriving This Month At U.S. Dealerships

BMW has announced that its plug-in 740e xDrive iPerformance (that we will just go ahead and called the 740e from here on out) will start US deliveries to dealers this month. The 740e is the top of the line version for the 7 Series (all-wheel-drive), with price starting from $89,100 plus $995 Destination and Handling.

We should mention that a $4,500 federal tax credit applies to the purchase, and can be deducted from $90,095 MSRP cost; nonetheless, it will be one of the most expensive plug-in hybrids on the market today. BMW puts the official EPA range rating for all-electric mode at 14 miles (22.5 km) via the 9.2 kWh battery � of which some 6.5 kWh is usable.

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AustinPowers said: ?

Fascinating to see this thread has managed over 23 pages even though everyone here seems to agree on the premise - except for EaglesPDX that is. If it wasn't for him and his aggressive ranting posts every now and then, this thread would have been dead long ago.
Click to expand...

I'm using my magical powers (they come free with every BMW 300e) to make you and all the other Teslerati terrifed by BMW's promo to post on this thread again and again. Way more than me. BMW seems to have struck a nerve in suggesting those waiting for a T3 get a BMW300e in the interim.
�

Say it ain't so BMW! Hopefully Mercedes has come to its senses with its new all electric lineup to be announced next month.

Also waiting on FaradayFuture, Google, Apple, Ford and BYD to unveil their pure EV Tesla contenders.

I'm so sick of these lame hybrid and short range offerings. Enough already!
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FlatSix911 said: ?

BMW puts the official EPA range rating for all-electric mode at 14 miles (22.5 km) via the 9.2 kWh battery � of which some 6.5 kWh is usable.
Click to expand...

The only reason BMW is doing that is to enable their cars to be used in the increasing number of European cities that will not allow fossil fuel burning passenger cars in the city center.

BMW has no real interest in BEVs.
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FlatSix911 said: ?

Another wasted effort from BMW ... 2017 BMW 740e Priced At $89,100, Arriving This Month At U.S. Dealerships

BMW has announced that its plug-in 740e xDrive iPerformance (that we will just go ahead and called the 740e from here on out) will start US deliveries to dealers this month. The 740e is the top of the line version for the 7 Series (all-wheel-drive), with price starting from $89,100 plus $995 Destination and Handling.

We should mention that a $4,500 federal tax credit applies to the purchase, and can be deducted from $90,095 MSRP cost; nonetheless, it will be one of the most expensive plug-in hybrids on the market today. BMW puts the official EPA range rating for all-electric mode at 14 miles (22.5 km) via the 9.2 kWh battery � of which some 6.5 kWh is usable.

View attachment 189990
Click to expand...

Why in the world would this car need a 30% reserve on such a small battery pack? Oh, well. At least it matches the similarly gimped 14 mile fully electric range of the Mercedes-Benz S550e plug-in hybrid.
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Red Sage said:

The BMW 330e slows progress by being even worse than the BMW i3 at about the same price point. That is not frightening. It is saddening.
Click to expand...

Yes, and the marketplace has voted accordingly in a landslide. 1,479 i3's sold in July vs. 81 330e's.

For your measly 14 miles of electric range (based on driving very carefully) vs. a conventional hybrid, you pay more upfront cost and get less utility because the larger battery eats trunk space and often prevents the rear seats from folding down (see Camry, Accord, don't know about the 330e).

03DSG said:

What I don't get is why anyone bothers to respond to EaglesPDX at all............It's a total waste of life.
Click to expand...

I'm an avid skier and I've seen EaglesPDX' antics on the EpicSki Forum before. I think he got banned or at least severely restricted over there.
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EaglesPDX said: ?

I'm using my magical powers (they come free with every BMW 300e) to make you and all the other Teslerati terrifed by BMW's promo to post on this thread again and again. Way more than me. BMW seems to have struck a nerve in suggesting those waiting for a T3 get a BMW300e in the interim.
Click to expand...

Absolutely no doubt BMW hit a nerve with these ads. I sincerely doubt it is the "fear" nerve you suggest, though. Annoying, laughable, sillyness, stupidity nerve perhaps...

I once more repeat my suggestion that you let go of the "Teslarati fears BMW's competition in current EV efforts" argument. Argue the merits of these PHEVs and/or the merits of these 330e advertisements instead. There can be actual merits there, but really, the fear argument is so far fetched it does your side of the argument no favours. Unless you intend to merely troll.

AnxietyRanger said: ?

EaglesPDX, if you are really interested in seeking some mutual understanding and dialogue in conversation, may I suggest you discontinue the notion that people here are attacking BMW's EV efforts because they are terrified of them. I think in your heart of hearts, even you know that is probably not a very big motivation for anyone here - if it is a motivation at all. Get it out of the way, call it a joke gone on long enough or an exaggeration in the heat of the moment, or don't call it anything, but let's move on to the actual beef. Just my opinion and suggestion, of course.

IMO it is quite different to feel people are taking "a small provincial view of moving to low emissions automobiles" than to outright assert they are fearful of BMW. The argument about a small view is far more debatable and should prove more fruitful.

In that vein, to try and steer back:

a) Should we be applauding BMW for their efforts in reducing emissions with the PHEVs and BEVs they currently have (e.g. 330e, i3...)? Is it a "a small provincial view of moving to low emissions automobiles" for disliking/dismissing them? Or is it an understandable or even "the right" view to be annoyed at BMW for actually delaying/prolonging the move away from ICE, arguing that they are a part of the problem, not the solution?

b) Is BMW right/ridiculous/whatever in advertising the 330e to the people waiting for a Model 3? Is it a valid advertisement that we in our EV bubble are just not seeing right, that will help move cars or even help reduce emissions (more than without that ad would happen)? Is BMW merely seeing a potential target market in Model 3 wait-listers and engaging in perfectly normal marketing? Are they even onto a viral winner, given how much talk the ads are generating? Or, indeed, is it a silly idea that indeed makes BMW look fearful (or should we even conclude they are fearful) and gives unwise attention to a competitor and makes no footprint impression anyway?

c) What does Tesla the company think of these kinds of efforts? Both in public (the vision) and in private (the business)?

I would argue there is a real merited debate over these kinds of questions to be had, than the rather unsupportable notion that BMWs very limited - and lately even more delayed (2021?) - efforts are cause of competitive concern for "Teslarati". BMW's efforts are just so, so very small, it is very hard to see how the idea of fear could possibly play into even the most ardent Tesla-only fans thinking, let alone a pure-BEV fans who'd actually like to buy great EVs from whomever (unless we consider the wholly different fear of feeling that BMW's etc. antics are delaying the onset of pure BEV domination, which fear might actually contribute to the annoyed reaction in some manner).

I have no opinion on the success of these BMW ads. I can see it go in any direction. Interesting to see. Personally I found them lame. Stand on your own merits and shoulders, IMO, not on others. But sure, they can work. Bad ads sometimes do.

I have to disagree with you on Tesla's mission, though: I think the company's whole stated worldview hinges of compelling battery electric vehicles entering the market. The company has been driven, in public at least, by dislike for transitional efforts like the 330e and instead going for big bold moves that change the world much more quickly - and being the example, the catalyst for that big bold change. Tesla is not about only reducing emissions, their worldview obviously is removing them from running of the car entirely, so that improvements in energy production wherever (e.g. solar) can keep reducing the overall footprint indefinitely - and at the very, very least, their worldview is creating compelling battery electric cars (and no weirdmobiles). I would argue they'd say 330e and i3 as they stand are not compelling in that department.

While only Tesla can answer what they as a company want, I thus sincerely doubt what they - vision-wise, at least - want is a road to the future paved with 330e's. I would wager their vision would rather see a world where even major manufacturer is gearing up efforts similar to Superchargers and Model 3 and Gigafactory. Instead from BMW and other high-end Germans we have very limited battery range or very limited production/marketing vehicles and some plans for Model S/X competition (mind you, not Model 3, no known Gigafactory solution, no known Supercharger network) in two-three (or in the case of BMW, five) years time. Maybe business-wise Tesla is relishing the situation, it does seem to give them quite a long headstart for selling BEVs to the masses.

Again, I think a lot of people here are more willing to hand some applause to the non-Germans. Go Bolt, Go Leaf. Outside of the PHEV/EREV label debate, even Volt gets a better rapport here than a 330e and Volt/Bolt actually is positioned to compete with Tesla in at least regional sales figures (Volt is actually a competent PHEV, unlike some). At least there is some effort there! But what we've so far seen come from the land of the autobahn is dragging their EV heels. A lot of us here, I think, are long-time buyers of German automobiles. I've bought 10+ high-end Germans, personally. If a lot of us are now standing up and saying we're no longer doing that because they used to be the future and now they are the past, maybe the Germans should listen.

As a final footnote, after reading some of this conversation I actually headed on to BMW's website last night and downloaded their 330e materials (advertisement success!). As I was looking its special features, like the blue eDrive trim under the doors and their attempts at sound insipired and forward-thinking (and with stuff like a man with a giant blue-glowing charging station standing in front of his house - for what, a 110V/240V wall-plug), I genuinely just felt sad. It was a sad effort to put a seriously overestated and in-your-face label on what really is such a limited effort. At least the car outside looks pretty normal, which can't be said of the i3. I mean, maybe the average Joe buys into that hyperbole, but anyone knowing better is just sad of what has become of these brands that used to be the face of genuine progress. German marketing faszination is just so much easier to buy into when it promotes real advantages, it seems.

Instead of progress, they've become a joke.

I'd rather BMW didn't try to dress it up so much, because like this ad, to me it just makes a perfectly serviceable PHEV drivetrain seem idiotic because they tried to make it into something it is not (instead of a serviceable drivetrain, trying to make it seem like the future). I'd rather they'd just market it lowkey, because it is a lowkey thing.

This made me appreciate Tesla's efforts even more, because they are based actually making big bold changes in what the cars actually are and do, while making normal cars with only functional differences in appearance. BMWs EV attempts are more akin to putting futuristic lipstick on a pig. If they were great EVs then maybe I could look past all that lipstick and appreciate it as a somewhat appropriate styling, but now it just feels seriously sad to me. When you can't win on features, dress it up, is a sure sign of failure in my worldview.

Very, very uninspirational, Germans. Keine Vorsprung, to expand the comment.
Click to expand...

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That BMW 740e is a beautiful car. Must say nicer interior than the S but still 14 miles? Why bother? It really fells like a half-ass attempt at E-drive. And at the same time a way to keep the oil industry pumping
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Chopr147 said: ?

That BMW 740e is a beautiful car. Must say nicer interior than the S but still 14 miles? Why bother? It really fells like a half-ass attempt at E-drive. And at the same time a way to keep the oil industry pumping
Click to expand...

It is obviously a compliance move by BMW. Show's BMW has no interest (unlike Mercedes) in actually advancing technology in electric drive. Basically, something that they can wave as a "we are green!" flag to the governments and get some rebates for the consumer.
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ecarfan said: ?

The only reason BMW is doing that is to enable their cars to be used in the increasing number of European cities that will not allow fossil fuel burning passenger cars in the city center.
Click to expand...

I'm not keeping up -- I thought it was only a matter of taxes.

In this case of access, the offered models make a lot of sense. I just hope they are actually used in EV mode.
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FlatSix911 said: ?

Another wasted effort from BMW ... 2017 BMW 740e Priced At $89,100, Arriving This Month At U.S. Dealerships
Click to expand...

Not only a wasted effort (potentially14 miles on EV for $89K ) but Fugly too compared to a model S.

(Now watch one poster's head explode by that comment!)
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ecarfan said: ?

The only reason BMW is doing that is to enable their cars to be used in the increasing number of European cities that will not allow fossil fuel burning passenger cars in the city center.

BMW has no real interest in BEVs.
Click to expand...

Do you have more details? I found lots of plans, most of them several years away from implementation. The only things I could find right now were congestion charges (London, Oslo, Stockholm) that are waived for EVs.
�

Ironically I would be excited, not fearful, if Tesla had real competition! More choices for me.

Although I'd only consider them if they would offer Tesla supercharging capability for a reasonable price.
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S?XY P100D said: ?

Ironically I would be excited, not fearful, if Tesla had real competition! More choices for me.

Although I'd only consider them if they would offer Tesla supercharging capability for a reasonable price.
Click to expand...

Likewise. I'd consider a non-Tesla EV without supercharging as a complement to our road-trip Tesla, too. We don't have a need for road tripping in two cars simultaneously.
�

I hope BMW does well. There's so may cars that can be switched over to EV I'm not worried at all as to the affects it will have on Tesla.
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ohmman said: ?

Likewise. I'd consider a non-Tesla EV without supercharging as a complement to our road-trip Tesla, too. We don't have a need for road tripping in two cars simultaneously.
Click to expand...

My complement to my fully road trip capable Tesla Model S is...a Tesla Roadster.

I welcome BEVs from other manufacturers that are competitive with what Tesla currently offers and will offer with the Model 3. But even once the Bolt goes on sale, there will not be any "competitive" alternatives to Tesla (as a primary vehicle) because the Bolt will not offer a useful high-speed DC charging network and it's cargo capacity with even 4 adults inside will be extremely limited. And, it's ugly. GM needs to do better. All the other manufacturers needs to just do something, anything that is at least close to what Tesla has been selling for years now.
�

Timeline's not looking good for BMW per this article. Tesla is years ahead of them:
Report: BMW is planning a major push into all-electric vehicles

Also, whatever happened to the i5 that was supposed to debut two years ago?
BMW i5 to launch before 2015

In about 2 years from now we'll be asking "why wait for a BMW i5 if you can get a Tesla Model 3 today?"
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ecarfan said: ?

I welcome BEVs from other manufacturers that are competitive with what Tesla currently offers and will offer with the Model 3.
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Exactly. That's what I'm saying - I'd consider one. I see no reason to believe I'm going to see one anytime soon, but there sure as heck better be a day that there are competitive alternatives.
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ecarfan said: ?

And, it's ugly.
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That is not much of a card. I have my TM3 reserved despite it being sedan-ish.
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scaesare said: ?

Man, you've said this a bunch in this thread. I think you've single-handedly brought up "status" in this thread more than I've seen in all the other threads on this forum combined in the 3.5 years I've been on it.

At this point I'm reading your posts primarily for entertainment value... but I suspect I know why the BMW thing is such a hot button for you now.
Click to expand...

But isn't it interesting that the core of this discussion, the Model 3, is in fact NOT a 'status' vehicle. It's being priced for the 'regular' people.
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S?XY P100D said: ?

Timeline's not looking good for BMW per this article. Tesla is years ahead of them:
Report: BMW is planning a major push into all-electric vehicles
Click to expand...

There's a recent Bloomberg New Energy Finance study that predicts (across the board) price parity for EVs in the early 2020s, and yet only a 35% EV market share of new vehicles by 2040.

This 35% by 2040 prediction will likely go down in history with the paltry cell phone market predictions made by "experts" when a cell phone required a briefcase to carry the battery and transceiver hardware.

But, I think this likely echoes either the views (or hopes) of most in big auto -- that they'll have decades upon decades to slowly transition to EVs.

On the other hand, I'd bet that after part 2 of the reveal, which I expect to be a showstopper, Model 3 preorders will explode yet again and likely reach ~750K before production starts. You'd think that'd provide another industry wakeup call, but I suspect the other CEOs will just doubt that Tesla can make the cars profitably, and nothing will change.
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Saghost said: ?

I found lots of plans, most of them several years away from implementation.
Click to expand...

And that is the problem. They have had a lots of plans - for several years - and they are still several years away from implementation. Same goes for Audi - except that they may actually go forward with their plans now in the aftermath of Dieselgate....

ecarfan said: ?

But even once the Bolt goes on sale, there will not be any "competitive" alternatives to Tesla (as a primary vehicle) because the Bolt will not offer a useful high-speed DC charging network and it's cargo capacity with even 4 adults inside will be extremely limited. And, it's ugly.
Click to expand...

I agree with everything you say here, but still the Bolt/Ampera-e is my second choice after Model 3.

... come to think of it - it is also my latest choice given that the list currently only have those two names on it
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Alketi said: ?

There's a recent Bloomberg New Energy Finance study that predicts (across the board) price parity for EVs in the early 2020s, and yet only a 35% EV market share of new vehicles by 2040.

This 35% by 2040 prediction will likely go down in history with the paltry cell phone market predictions made by "experts" when a cell phone required a briefcase to carry the battery and transceiver hardware.

But, I think this likely echoes either the views (or hopes) of most in big auto -- that they'll have decades upon decades to slowly transition to EVs.

On the other hand, I'd bet that after part 2 of the reveal, which I expect to be a showstopper, Model 3 preorders will explode yet again and likely reach ~750K before production starts. You'd think that'd provide another industry wakeup call, but I suspect the other CEOs will just doubt that Tesla can make the cars profitably, and nothing will change.
Click to expand...

The problem is that 'experts' seem to calculate 'price parity' in a different way than Customers will... That's why they will be completely blindsided by the adoption rate of electric vehicles. When such 'ANALysts' seek to allay the fears of traditional automobile manufacturers by telling them what they want to hear, "Oh, don't worry about it! You've got plenty of time! No one wants these things anyway, unless they are unwashed, barefoot, long haired hippie treehuggers, and those guys have bought a new car since 1974..." they perform a disservice to their Clients. Any automotive executives at companies that have no plans to switch to electric had better plan their retirement ceremonies within the next five years, so they won't be around to accept the blame for the upcoming fall.
�

Alketi said: ?

This 35% by 2040 prediction will likely go down in history with the paltry cell phone market predictions made by "experts" when a cell phone required a briefcase to carry the battery and transceiver hardware.
Click to expand...

It belongs among quotes like this:

"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."
Click to expand...

Thomas Watson, president of IBM, 1943
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SageBrush said: ?

That is not much of a card. I have my TM3 reserved despite it being sedan-ish.
Click to expand...

I don't follow what you mean by "not much of a card". My "ugly" comment was directed at the Bolt. The Model 3 is just as beautiful as the Model S, in my opinion.
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Krugerrand said: ?

But isn't it interesting that the core of this discussion, the Model 3, is in fact NOT a 'status' vehicle. It's being priced for the 'regular' people.
Click to expand...

Indeed, excellent point.

But it would seem that some here prefer not to let facts stand in the way of their assertions...
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S?XY P100D said: ?

Ironically I would be excited, not fearful, if Tesla had real competition! More choices for me.

Although I'd only consider them if they would offer Tesla supercharging capability for a reasonable price.
Click to expand...

Agreed.

As a matter of fact, I'm rather pro-Bolt. Not that they got everything right, but getting one of the Big 3 to offer a med-long range EV for a reasonable price point is a positive step in the right direction, IMO. I hope they sell enough for GM to make their next effort even more compelling.
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scaesare said: ?

Agreed.

As a matter of fact, I'm rather pro-Bolt. Not that they got everything right, but getting one of the Big 3 to offer med-long rang EV for a reasonable price point is a positive step in the right direction, IMO. I hope they sell enough for GM to make their next effort even more compelling.
Click to expand...

When they produce an electric Corvette then we'd know they're invested. haha
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Model 3 said: ?

It belongs among quotes like this:

Thomas Watson, president of IBM, 1943
Click to expand...

Looks like history yet again repeating itself.

I see Tesla now as the IBM of the 1950s.

Let's stay ahead of our times folks, alongside Elon & JB. What an exciting time of history-in-the-making and I plan to be at its forefront, with millions upon millions of others to follow. I want Tesla to win, to profit, and myself along with it.
�

scaesare said: ?

Agreed.

As a matter of fact, I'm rather pro-Bolt. Not that they got everything right, but getting one of the Big 3 to offer a med-long range EV for a reasonable price point is a positive step in the right direction, IMO. I hope they sell enough for GM to make their next effort even more compelling.
Click to expand...

Not me. Chevy/GM can eat dung for all I care. If they and other car manufacturers continue to slack, that's just more market share Tesla can acquire (though Tesla absolutely has to improve production quality and interior aesthetics/functionality, as well as continuing to increase service centers, sales centers and superchargers).

Making an ugly, boxy, weird EV is not progress. It's a half-arsed attempt at acting like you're actually doing something. It's solely being done to meet federal regulations and they are wholly hoping it fails to sell. That way they can go to the Feds and say, "Nobody wants these cars. We shouldn't have to make them anymore." Oh wait, they are literally already doing that and have been for years.
�

alseTrick said: ?

It's solely being done to meet federal regulations and they are wholly hoping it fails to sell.
Click to expand...

Given the range, pricing, and aggressive timeline, I'm not convinced of that.
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scaesare said: ?

Given the range, pricing, and aggressive timeline, I'm not convinced of that.
Click to expand...

Ignore the ugliness, the fact that it has no long-distance charging network, and that it may not even be able to get close to its 200-mile range on the highway due to its (lack of) aerodynamics.

If Chevy cared about EVs they'd be making an EV Malibu, Impala, etc.
�

alseTrick said: ?

Making an ugly, boxy, weird EV is not progress. It's a half-arsed attempt at acting like you're actually doing something. It's solely being done to meet federal regulations and they are wholly hoping it fails to sell.
Click to expand...

I think you're assigning a conspiracy to something that can be more easily described as corporate cluelessness.

The Leaf, Prius, and to some extent, the Bolt, don't look the way they do so those companies could spend tens/hundreds of millions in the hopes that they would fail so they could then prove a point to federal regulators.

Rather, they're tall, boxy hatchbacks because unimaginative auto executives believe that the only people who want EVs are those who threw away their air conditioners, dine by candlelight, have their entire house on switchable power strips, and eat seaweed. Those cars are (arguably ugly) and purely utilitarian because they're marketed at people who want to save the world, and don't care what their cars look like or how they accelerate.

Tesla is the first company to see a larger potential -- that EVs are vastly superior to ICE just based on physics and that if you build a desirable EV, then people of all ages and beliefs will line up for it. The effect of the Model 3 can't be overstated. Tesla HAS to succeed with this.
�

Model 3 said: ?

And that is the problem. They have had a lots of plans - for several years - and they are still several years away from implementation. Same goes for Audi - except that they may actually go forward with their plans now in the aftermath of Dieselgate....
Click to expand...

I don't disagree with what you said - certainly the announcement of lots of EVs in 2020 is better than not being announced, but it's all paper cars and a lot can happen in four years - but if you read the context, I was actually talking about plans to make combustion free city centers, not EVs.
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EaglesPDX said: ?

I'm using my magical powers (they come free with every BMW 300e) to make you and all the other Teslerati terrifed by BMW's promo to post on this thread again and again. Way more than me. BMW seems to have struck a nerve in suggesting those waiting for a T3 get a BMW300e in the interim.
Click to expand...

EaglesPDX, I marked your post as funny because it's laughable how you just don't get it! You keep saying that Tesla ownership is about status, that BMW's 14 miles of electric range is sufficient, and that Tesla fans and reservation holders are afraid of these paltry attempts by BMW to claim their cars are in any way comparable to a Tesla (electric-wise).

Here's the thing... I've never owned a BMW but I've been a fan as long as I can remember. When they came out with their modified ActiveE evaluation vehicles, I was super excited. They are what actually sucked me in to the EV world and I desperately wanted one. I wanted BMW to build an all-electric that looked great and had great range and performance. Instead they took back all their ActiveE vehicles and introduced the horribly unattractive i3. Yes, they eventually introduced the beautiful and super flashy i8, but starting at $140K and still getting horrible electric range, that is just a status symbol.

Had BMW actually built something that looks like their 3-series that got 200 miles of range, so many current Tesla owners and reservation holders might actually be driving BMW's. And admittedly, there a lot of things BMW does better than Tesla regarding fit, finish, and interior. But they have yet to demonstrate their ability to build an attractive all electric that people both want and can afford. Tesla is doing that.

We don't fear BMW. Believe me, we welcome the competition. But right now, there is none. Fourteen miles electric is not competition for Tesla. And bear in mind, too, that BMW made the commercials, not Tesla. It's BMW that is afraid of Tesla, not the other way around. Tesla lets the product speak for itself, and it's speaking volumes.
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Saghost said: ?

but if you read the context, I was actually talking about plans to make combustion free city centers, not EVs.
Click to expand...

Sorry - I mixed up your post with the post above you who cited this:

FlatSix911 said: ?

Another wasted effort from BMW ... 2017 BMW 740e Priced At $89,100, Arriving This Month At U.S. Dealerships
Click to expand...

My fault
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alseTrick said: ?

Ignore the ugliness, the fact that it has no long-distance charging network, and that it may not even be able to get close to its 200-mile range on the highway due to its (lack of) aerodynamics.

If Chevy cared about EVs they'd be making an EV Malibu, Impala, etc.
Click to expand...

Baby steps.

Board of Directors do not have the total-autonomy to turn the marketing and engineering aspect of an established long running company completely on its head, at least in short-term periods of time.
They have MANY investors who need to be pleased with sufficient earnings, AND vendors and dealers who need to manufacture and sell existing product every month, or they are in danger of going out of business.

Turning an industry upside down as an "outsider" is much easier to do than to completely re-invent the same wheel you have been building and selling for over 100 years.
Developing long term plans for the evolution to PHEV and BEV is probably already underway.

For all we know, Chevy might already have plans on the drawing boards for EV Malibus, Impalas, Tahoes, etc., or at least comparable models with "new names".
And they may also be working on long-distance charging strategies.

Time will tell.
�

Alketi said: ?

I think you're assigning a conspiracy to something that can be more easily described as corporate cluelessness.
Click to expand...

Give me a break with "conspiracy". There is no "conspiracy" in the tin-foil sense. But the car manufacturers are CURRENTLY lobbying the US government to REDUCE efficiency standards and are LITERALLY arguing that consumers don't want to buy them so they shouldn't have to make them. That is undeniable.
�

alseTrick said: ?

Ignore the ugliness, the fact that it has no long-distance charging network, and that it may not even be able to get close to its 200-mile range on the highway due to its (lack of) aerodynamics.

If Chevy cared about EVs they'd be making an EV Malibu, Impala, etc.
Click to expand...

Yet, if you compare it to a Leaf, Spark, Focus Electric, etc... it may be a rather compelling daily commuter car.
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ecarfan said: ?

I don't follow what you mean by "not much of a card". My "ugly" comment was directed at the Bolt. The Model 3 is just as beautiful as the Model S, in my opinion.
Click to expand...

And my point is that your personal opinion is of little use in discussions about overall markets.

I don't spend your money, and you do not spend mine. So please refrain from the insults and 'weird-mobile' comments.
�

scaesare said: ?

Yet, if you compare it to a Leaf, Spark, Focus Electric, etc... it may be a rather compelling daily commuter car.
Click to expand...

The most compelling of a bunch of uncompeling cars? What a compelling argument.
�

FlatSix911 said: ?

Another wasted effort from BMW ... 2017 BMW 740e Priced At $89,100, Arriving This Month At U.S. Dealerships

BMW has announced that its plug-in 740e xDrive iPerformance (that we will just go ahead and called the 740e from here on out) will start US deliveries to dealers this month. The 740e is the top of the line version for the 7 Series (all-wheel-drive), with price starting from $89,100 plus $995 Destination and Handling.

We should mention that a $4,500 federal tax credit applies to the purchase, and can be deducted from $90,095 MSRP cost; nonetheless, it will be one of the most expensive plug-in hybrids on the market today. BMW puts the official EPA range rating for all-electric mode at 14 miles (22.5 km) via the 9.2 kWh battery � of which some 6.5 kWh is usable.

View attachment 189990
Click to expand...

14 miles on 6.5 usable kWh? That's pretty awful. Is that extrapalateable to 140 miles on 65kWh? Again, that's awful. Maybe removing the ICE increases that somewhat?

Either way, 14 miles wouldn't even be able to take me to work.
�

Red Sage said: ?

Not too good, really... Have a look HERE.
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Jeez, and people call Teslas expensive.... imagine paying $46K for an itty bitty city i3! For $20K more you can have three times the car in a base Model S.
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purplewalt said: ?

For all we know, Chevy might already have plans on the drawing boards for EV Malibus, Impalas, Tahoes, etc., or at least comparable models with "new names".
Click to expand...

Unusual S Sighting at Maumee Supercharger

Ciaopec said: ?

A flock of zebras (6 GM cars with manufacturer plates and radio antennas and other gear with Zebra striped appliqu� on front bumpers and a black support GM truck) stopped for lunch at the restaurants behind the supercharger. I had noticed a standard MI plate on a red MS that was charging. It, too, had a large whip antenna duct taped to the back deck lid and was part of the team that was testing something. Of course they wouldn't tell me anything more.
Click to expand...

I do not know if it is true, or if it is, if they are testing BEV's or some sort of Autopilot or what... But maybe your more right then you think?
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JeffK said: ?

When they produce an electric Corvette then we'd know they're invested. haha
Click to expand...

The only Corvette rumors I have heard is GM looking into a mid-engine Corvette. Engine being the key word.
�

alseTrick said: ?

Not me. Chevy/GM can eat dung for all I care. If they and other car manufacturers continue to slack, that's just more market share Tesla can acquire (though Tesla absolutely has to improve production quality and interior aesthetics/functionality, as well as continuing to increase service centers, sales centers and superchargers).

Making an ugly, boxy, weird EV is not progress. It's a half-arsed attempt at acting like you're actually doing something. It's solely being done to meet federal regulations and they are wholly hoping it fails to sell. That way they can go to the Feds and say, "Nobody wants these cars. We shouldn't have to make them anymore." Oh wait, they are literally already doing that and have been for years.
Click to expand...

There's plenty of people here in Europe that would pick the Bolt over the Model 3 based on the shape of the car. Sedans are pretty unpopular most places. The most popular cars in Europe for the first half of 2016 are:

1 Volkswagen Golf 321,772
2 Renault Clio 211,139
3 Volkswagen Polo 204,227
4 Ford Fiesta 165,34
5 Opel/Vauxhall Corsa 153,001

The common denominator is that they are all small-ish hatchbacks. I think GM will sell every Bolt they manage to produce. Though maybe Europe will be a bigger market than the US. Maybe.
�

Yggdrasill said: ?

There's plenty of people here in Europe that would pick the Bolt over the Model 3 based on the shape of the car. Sedans are pretty unpopular most places. The most popular cars in Europe for the first half of 2016 are:

1 Volkswagen Golf 321,772
2 Renault Clio 211,139
3 Volkswagen Polo 204,227
4 Ford Fiesta 165,34
5 Opel/Vauxhall Corsa 153,001

The common denominator is that they are all small-ish hatchbacks..
Click to expand...

Yup. This is why I earlier posted that despite the TM3 sedan design, I choose it over the Bolt. Design preference is just one priority among many.
�

SageBrush said: ?

I don't spend your money, and you do not spend mine.
Click to expand...

A self-evident proposition that I'm sure we can all agree with.

SageBrush said: ?

So please refrain from the insults and 'weird-mobile' comments.
Click to expand...

I did not intend to personally insult you or anyone else on TMC. I do think the i3 is an ugly car, and I see no reason to not be allowed to express that opinion. It is also my opinion that BMW deliberately made the i3 look so peculiar to avoid any chance of it competing with and pulling sales from their ICE vehicles. Obviously if BMW made an attractive long range BEV (as Tesla has done with every car they've built) that would take sales from BMWs ICE product line, and BMW does not want to do that.
�

I3 is the weirdest lego car i have ever seen
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Yggdrasill said: ?

There's plenty of people here in Europe that would pick the Bolt over the Model 3 based on the shape of the car. Sedans are pretty unpopular most places... maybe Europe will be a bigger market than the US. Maybe.
Click to expand...

A compelling reason to release the Model Y ASAP!
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ecarfan said: ?

I do think the i3 is an ugly car, and I see no reason to not be allowed to express that opinion.
Click to expand...

My objection is to your extrapolation of your personal opinion to the larger markets.

As to your personal opinions about aesthetics-- sure, go ahead and write them up although I don't really understand why you think anybody else cares one way or another.

Mostly I am telling you, and by extension many others, that I would much prefer reading about the great attributes of Tesla cars rather than pitiful mud-slinging and name calling of the competition.
�

JeffK said: ?

When they produce an electric Corvette then we'd know they're invested. haha
Click to expand...

Yeah... Well the only way the Corvette will ever see a battery operated drive train is if it also came with monstrous subwoofers so the driver felt cool driving it, and the public still sees it as a muscle car.

I don't know if the production i8's have this, but it was certainly in the pre-release design:
BMW i8 will force fake engine noise and howl at pedestrians
�

MassModel3 said: ?

Yeah... Well the only way the Corvette will ever see a battery operated drive train is if it also came with monstrous subwoofers so the driver felt cool driving it, and the public still sees it as a muscle car.

I don't know if the production i8's have this, but it was certainly in the pre-release design:
BMW i8 will force fake engine noise and howl at pedestrians
Click to expand...

Don't know if you can hear it outside the car, but they pipe it into the car interior.
�

SageBrush said: ?

Mostly I am telling you, and by extension many others, that I would much prefer reading about the great attributes of Tesla cars rather than pitiful mud-slinging and name calling of the competition.
Click to expand...

I own 2 Tesla's, own TSLA, and as you may be aware am a vocal Tesla Motors supporters here on TMC. When I criticize the competition -- oh wait, there really isn't any yet -- I do it based on facts and also sometimes on aesthetics which are of course idiosyncratic and personal.
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JeffK said: ?

When they produce an electric Corvette then we'd know they're invested. haha
Click to expand...

General Motors Trademarks E-Ray For Possible Future Electric Corvette

Of course, there isn't any known timetable or public commitment yet to make an electric Corvette.
�

MassModel3 said: ?

You keep saying that Tesla ownership is about status,
Click to expand...

It is certainly a big factor in Tesla sales.

1. 10-20% of Tesla buyers are not concerned about GHG but buy the Tesla for the usual status reasons, it's expensive, rare and fast.

1. For those who do care about GHG, owning a Tesla confers quite a but of status for being the ultimate in zero emissions and for all the regular status perks.

MassModel3 said:

that BMW's 14 miles of electric range is sufficient
Click to expand...

It is sufficient to cut one's GHG by 50 to 80%. The average commute is 12.6 miles, just on home charging the BMW 300e would cut commuting GHG by 50%. If a work charger, by 100%. Add in all the driving that is within 10 miles of the home, some 80% and a BMW300e driver could reduce their GHG significantly.

MassModel3 said:

that Tesla fans and reservation holders are afraid of these paltry attempts by BMW to claim their cars are in any way comparable to a Tesla (electric-wise).
Click to expand...

Nope just that a few Teslerati who are posting here including the orginal poster are terrrifed of the BMW300e as demonstrated by their frenetic posts and hysterical attacks on the BMW300e.
�

alseTrick said: ?

Ignore the ugliness, the fact that it has no long-distance charging network, and that it may not even be able to get close to its 200-mile range on the highway due to its (lack of) aerodynamics.
Click to expand...

The Bolt EV is not any uglier than the millions of other cars that GM sells every year. Selling a utility-oriented hatchback was, in my opinion, a good choice for them given Tesla's focus on a sedan. Assuming GM hits their 200+ combined city/highway EV range the Bolt's highway range will likely be at least 180 miles based on the EPA ratings of the 30 kWh Nissan LEAF which has similar aerodynamics.

Even though GM says they aren't doing anything (yet), Mercedes and the VW group (Audi etc.) have plans for initial US sales of large battery BEVs starting in 2018. They both plan advanced spending over the next 2 years on CCS charging stations to support sales of those cars and the Bolt will very likely be able to use those stations as well (even if at a higher or non-discounted pricing policy).

According to a recent article, "At Audi, [Wayne] Killen has been tasked with forming a partnership of automakers to install 175 new chargers nationwide before Audi's e-tron quattro makes its debut in 2018. Killen says he wants to emulate Tesla's model of installing chargers "not just where electric vehicles are and drive," but across the country."

VW apparently has set aside $1.2 billion as part of its Dieselgate settlement with $800 million of that to be spent in my lovely state of California. As I understand it, large fractions of that will be spent on EV charging infrastructure.

Also, "In December [2015], Nissan and BMW announced a partnership to install 120 fast chargers across the country. The stations will be equipped with both CHAdeMO and SAE Combo."

The state of CA already has modest grant budgets for CCS charging sites and just dispensed ~$10+ million (I recall) for the next set of highway CCS and CHAdeMO combo stations.

That's all on top of the existing 780+ existing CCS charging sites nationwide although most are in metro areas.

The US government recently announced a near-term project to work with state and local governments to map out preferred highway routes for initial EV charging installation over the next several years.

Tesla didn't have any Supercharging to speak of when the first Model S went on sale just 4 years ago. They are now planning for huge increases in production volume and will be scrambling to match the charging availability. Tesla's CHAdeMO and future CCS adapters will help provide business for these new stations as they open in addition to the GM, MB, and VW cars.

I'm not worried about being unable to do road trips in my Bolt along the west coast of the US over the next several years until I get a Model 3 to join it in the garage.
�

EaglesPDX said: ?

It is certainly a big factor in Tesla sales.

1. 10-20% of Tesla buyers are not concerned about GHG but buy the Tesla for the usual status reasons, it's expensive, rare and fast.

1. For those who do care about GHG, owning a Tesla confers quite a but of status for being the ultimate in zero emissions and for all the regular status perks.

It is sufficient to cut one's GHG by 50 to 80%. The average commute is 12.6 miles, just on home charging the BMW 300e would cut commuting GHG by 50%. If a work charger, by 100%. Add in all the driving that is within 10 miles of the home, some 80% and a BMW300e driver could reduce their GHG significantly.

Nope just that a few Teslerati who are posting here including the orginal poster are terrrifed of the BMW300e as demonstrated by their frenetic posts and hysterical attacks on the BMW300e.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, you cannot seem to pick a single target and stick to it.
The OP comment is about Model 3 and the diversionary tactic that BMW took with the attached ads,

Model 3 is NOT about status.
Its starting price is $35K, about $10K LESS than the base model BMW 330e.
Ahem...
So it is less EXPENSIVE.

Once the first 100,000 of the first 400,000 already reserved Model 3s are in customer's hands and on the road it will not be that RARE.
The car that WILL be rare will be the BMW330e.

You are correct about one sole Item of your above list.
The Model 3 will be FAST.

Reviewing the rest of your statements, I believe they are pure hogwash.
The average commute in a small city might be less that 13 miles, but in a major American Metroplex or metropolitan area, it is certainly more like 40 miles.

Knowledgeable and thinking people are neither frenetic nor hysterical what the BMW 330e brings relative to the rest of the market, not now, and certainly not in the next 15 months when the Model 3 start being delivered to eager owners.
Personally I intend to be patient, wait and buy the best product for a reasonable price, and contribute ZERO CO2 to the atmosphere.
100% of the time.
And being a non-contributor to air pollution is NOT a status Item.
It is just rational in-depth thinking looking for the best long term solutions.

Should you decide to drive more than 13 miles a day, your BMW 330e WILL be adding CO2 to the air we all breathe.

Why not take some time and do some prudent research before adding another post of your unfounded nonsense to this thread.
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Yggdrasill said: ?

There's plenty of people here in Europe that would pick the Bolt over the Model 3 based on the shape of the car. Sedans are pretty unpopular most places. The most popular cars in Europe for the first half of 2016 are:

1 Volkswagen Golf 321,772
2 Renault Clio 211,139
3 Volkswagen Polo 204,227
4 Ford Fiesta 165,34
5 Opel/Vauxhall Corsa 153,001

The common denominator is that they are all small-ish hatchbacks. I think GM will sell every Bolt they manage to produce. Though maybe Europe will be a bigger market than the US. Maybe.
Click to expand...

None of that contradicts the Bolt being ugly, boxy and a typically weird-looking EV.

If people want a hatchback that badly, they will sacrifice the clear reality of the ugly, boxy, weirdness of it. Just like many people have said they are going to buy the Model 3 despite likely preferring the Model Y because they want an "affordable" long-range EV that badly. And that is everyone's personal prerogative.

However, if anybody buys a Bolt over a Model Y (once it's available), they are a fool. Period.
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alseTrick said: ?

Give me a break with "conspiracy". There is no "conspiracy" in the tin-foil sense. But the car manufacturers are CURRENTLY lobbying the US government to REDUCE efficiency standards and are LITERALLY arguing that consumers don't want to buy them so they shouldn't have to make them. That is undeniable.
Click to expand...

@Alketi, you are simply denying reality if you disagree with the above statement.
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teslamotorclub

Chủ Nhật, 20 tháng 11, 2016

The M3 terrifies BMW part 3

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