Chủ Nhật, 20 tháng 11, 2016

The M3 terrifies BMW part 2

  • Aug 9, 2016
    FlatSix911
    Great comparison ...

    upload_2016-8-9_22-11-29.png
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  • Aug 9, 2016
    AustinPowers
    Perhaps not in the US. But here in Germany, a well (not fully mind you) optioned S60 (non-D) is already more than 100K Euro or more than 112K USD. And some on the "European Market Situation and Outlook" thread still wonder why sales are so low in Germany :rolleyes:
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  • Aug 9, 2016
    malcolm
    Someone who speaks German has pointed out to me that I should have written:

    "In German, the presence of a subordinating conjunction moves the verb to the end of the sentence"

    Which really helps the comedy.

    Thank you.
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  • Aug 9, 2016
    AustinPowers
    @malcolm:

    But at least your German-speaking acquaintance is correct :)
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  • Aug 9, 2016
    malcolm
    :)

    Yup. First rule: It's funny because it's true.
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  • Aug 10, 2016
    EVie'sDad
    Yeah, I don't think Tesla has anything to worry about - compare Tesla's #'s to BMW's for the most recent month of July 2016.

    USA Electric Car Sales Up 48% In July

    Now who's terrified?
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  • Aug 10, 2016
    S?XY P100D
    110V charging huh?

    So the lady in the commercial had to leave late after work because she was waiting for her car to finish charging. Nice touch. ;)
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  • Aug 10, 2016
    EVie'sDad
    I actually think she had to leave it there overnight, just to get across town. lol :p

    Not to pour salt in an already open wound, but just today while at work on a slow charge, for less that 4 hours my Model S85D got 78 miles of charge....how long would that have taken at 3 miles/hr on a 110 volt connection?

    answer: 26 hours....sorry bmw that is far too long for anyone to wait. Superchargers do almost 300 miles in one hour.

    So I ask again, who's terrified? Now you know the answer to that question.
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  • Aug 10, 2016
    Saghost
    Tiny battery pack, remember? Leaving it overnight does no good, because the pack fills in only for or five hours on 110V (and still won't take you all the way across town.)
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  • Aug 10, 2016
    Garlan Garner
    I've been wanting to say this, however I didn't want to get blasted. The S made me struggle financially and that was stupid.
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  • Aug 10, 2016
    AnxietyRanger
    I understand your response, but for the average reader a clarification, though. The Model S 60 starts at 77 040 eur in Germany, no? A fully optioned one - and this includes the largest wheels and 7 seats (which are needed to even get over 100k) - is around 105 440 eur, I think. There are plenty of well optioned Model S 60 alternatives below 100 000 eur. Also, the dollar exchange rate does not seem to translate. The difference is not 12%. today, it is more like 5%. or thereabouts.

    Not to distract from the point that Model S is an expensive car in Europe, of course, and that yes you can exceed 100 000 dollars on one. But, really, a 100 000 eur car it is not in its base form, given reasonably expected options. I think calling the Model S a 80-85k eur (or 85-90k dollar) car in Europe would be more appropriate. This does still put it in the A8/7 Series/S Class range price-wise (just a bit under in starting price), so by no means an inexpensive car relatively speaking.

    * All this excluding massively taxed car markets (sans EV exceptions) like Denmark now, which are a completely different question of course.
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  • Aug 10, 2016
    dsvick
    Yes, but are you happy with it? Sometimes it's ok to struggle just so long as it's a realistic one that you know can win with some perseverance. All those people who follow the guidance and only ever take the safe route have no fun!! :)
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  • Aug 10, 2016
    Garlan Garner
    LOL.

    Yes I'm happy, however it's not a full smile and I'm going to have to get rid of it once the M3 is available. I'm even thinking about going to California and driving the M3 back to Chicago.

    Its not simply the monthly note of the M6.... Its the insurance and mandatory service calls that is adding up. The only thing that is really helping is the lack of having to buy gas. Everything else costs more than my ICE. But that's ok. I'll struggle through it.
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  • Aug 10, 2016
    Krugerrand
    So, he's not planning to leave the city any time soon, eh? Or does your friend not live in your specified locale?
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  • Aug 10, 2016
    Hewey
    One of the lamest commercials I have ever seen. Comparing the 2 cars makes NO sense at all? BMW ad writers obviously have no clue what the model 3 even is...
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  • Aug 10, 2016
    Krugerrand
    While I agree with the gist of your post, there is a reason that stereotypes exist and always will exist. It's also true that a lot of people don't like to be stereotyped (even if they fit it) because a stereotype tends to be viewed as a negative. You certainly viewed this particular stereotype as one as did the 15 (to date) other people who liked your post.

    It's impossible to say what percentage of S/X owners bought for this or that reason. I've certainly seen plenty of posts on this forum over the years that clearly suggest status symbol buyer (Chinese buyers are known to be quite status conscience as part of their culture - Did I just stereotype? And yet Chinese posters confirm that all the time.) and I've seen plenty of posts clearly suggesting environmentally conscience buyer, or performance buyer, family buyer, utility buyer or, or, or.

    My view is I don't care why people buy a Tesla, it's only important that they buy a Tesla. :)
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  • Aug 10, 2016
    ohmman
    The reason is rooted in the biases that exist in our brain as a product of evolution. We tend to simplify things to make them easier to understand, and we tend to want to group others. This is one of the factors which has fed tribalism and wars over the millennia. Stereotypes are generally formulated with vastly incomplete pictures of a group, followed by a confirmation bias feedback loop. This is no way to make observations.

    Here's a great example of that in play:
    I agree with Harold Evans, who said, "attempting to get at truth means rejecting stereotypes and clich�s."

    Stereotypes misguide because they force our brains to evaluate inside of a framework bereft of actual fact.

    I will say that I committed a similar fallacy in my post, though. I said "in most cases, it has nothing to do with status," and you're correct. There's no way I can know that. I just assumed it based on my distaste for it and my tribal feelings with the rest of the owners here. :)
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  • Aug 10, 2016
    Chopr147
    "Many" soccer Moms like the status of a big SUV here in suburbia :) I guess that makes me a soccer mom :) (I am a Dad by the way. )
    I guess somewhere in the deep recesses of my mind I think about status but really I find it distasteful. Too phony. If I were concerned about status i would spend more than $10 on my shirts :) But I do love my cars and take good care of them. I will be somewhat embarrased by my S, to be delivered soon but will get over it quick once I am drving that baby!
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  • Aug 10, 2016
    Garlan Garner
    The only way I am paying $75K and up for a base model anything is if I absolutely HATE all of the options. Otherwise I can't imagine paying that much and not get what I want. I would rather stick with my ICE until I could afford it.
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  • Aug 10, 2016
    Topher
    This, by you, is 'selling well'? We need 10 Million EVs per year, minimum.

    plonk.

    Thank you kindly.
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  • Aug 10, 2016
    Topher
    None get better than my 9 year old hybrid. Maybe you bought the wrong hybrid?

    Thank you kindly.
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  • Aug 10, 2016
    wallet.dat
    I'm trying to decide between getting the new Civic Type-R or just getting a shifter kart for track-day funsies. The latter is certainly a lot cheaper. Hmm...

    Edit: Oops. It appears that I posted this in the wrong thread.
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  • Aug 10, 2016
    AustinPowers
    Yes, an S60 starts at 77K Euro including delivery fee. But remember, that is the absolute naked barebones base model. No one who spends such an amount of money on a car buys a base model with no options. Not over here anyway, and I am sure only very few in other countries as well. So I included some of the options that are expected in the luxury segment if one would ever hope to have a chance of some resale value in the future. But the number stands, even that S60, without even the very handy dual motors, comes to over 101K Euro. And no, you don't need the 7-seat config to get over 100K Euro.
    And the current exchange rate over here is 1.12 Euro to the Dollar, so my math seems to have been correct.

    And if you want some more range and better performance, you are over 100K Euro very quickly. An S90D (naked) starts at over 102K Euro), an S75 (non D) at over 86K Euro. Not a chance that sales numbers over here will pick up significantly under these circumstances.

    As I said in another thread, Model 3 can't come soon enough.
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  • Aug 10, 2016
    dsvick
    Actually, they probably do, but they're counting on the general public to not know. That's the key for them, spread enough disinformation to dissuade anyone who doesn't know any better. The problem with that thinking is that anyone who is seriously thinking about getting a car that costs more than say $25,000 will do at least a little research on it to find out what it's all about. So all the ad is going to do, maybe, is convince people who aren't serious anyway.
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  • Aug 10, 2016
    AnxietyRanger
    Of course, but there is a difference between no options and some options. For some reaching into that lowest price point from below, the beef may be the EV drive - for some of them, the car at its most basic is already the greatest car they've ever bought.

    As I said, perhaps the base Model S shouldn't be considered a 77000 eur (or $75,000 car) car for an average base buyer, but I would expect calling it an 80000 to 85000 eur car is a lot closer to the point than, say, calling it a 100000 eur car. I really have a bit hard time seeing many buying loaded or nearly-loaded S60s, but people buying them at some level about 80k sounds a lot more likely to me.

    For the math, I guess we had different exchange rates on hand, but no need to dwell on that. We both agree 100k USD certainly comes up faster in EU Model S pricing than in the U.S. :)

    But the thing is, if you are already buying the base model, how likely is it that you will buy it nearly loaded?

    I mean, sure, a lot of people buy high-specced high-end models, but someone buying the very base model, one has to look no further than TMC that a lot of people are actually buying it with only a an option or three. People are debating which option to leave out to reach a budget etc. For example, drop those 21" wheels, SAS, UHF and have base decorations (perfectly nice as is)... A lot of people here on TMC order without PUP too. Then the price of an S60 in Germany the car drops to 82640 eur while still retaining Auto-Pilot, panoramic roof, cold weather. You could still add PUP, SAS or UHF and remain in the 85000 eur ballpark. Certainly a lot more palatable than 100k+, and more perhaps reasonable given the car's base performance level.

    And, look, I drive a nearly loaded 2014 Model S P85 and have a Model X Signature P90DL loaded on order, so as a buyer I get you - but the base-level buyer, even in this price range, does often act a bit different, I'd expect.

    On Model 3 being needed and the Model S still being an expensive car, on that we agree of course. :)
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  • Aug 10, 2016
    RubberToe
    The 2000 Honda Insight most assuredly gets better mileage than your hybrid! 70
    MPG EPA on the sticker. Beat that.

    Thank YOU kindly ;)

    RR
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  • Aug 10, 2016
    Topher
    So your claim is that a 2000 Honda Insight is a non-hybrid car?

    Thank you kindly.
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  • Aug 10, 2016
    gregd
    Thanks for the comparison. I just noticed that both of the BMWs (REX and 330) want Premium gas! On top of practically no battery.

    But, we the smug EV-know-it-alls (including myself here), should be careful dismissing these commercials. They are aimed at the larger population who don't know amps from volts, watts, or KWH, nor what 14-50 or J1772 plugs are. All they know is that you plug things into the wall and they light up. These ads are simply aimed at just getting potential customers into the showroom, where the sales creatures can have at them. I would expect that there's a "talking points" guide given to the dealers to go along with the campaign, which probably has language that aims to rapidly check off the "need for green" items (e.g. charges anywhere), then moves the conversation to the traditional BMW features. Their objective here is certainly not technical accuracy (what ad ever is?), nor promoting EVs. It is to sell cars. Theirs.

    Rather, I suggest that we should consider how to more effectively communicate with this same, larger, KWH-ignorant population. Perhaps a series of short "what if" spots that pick up our own talking points? Note the focus here is on what's in it for the customer, not some higher ideal. Hard to sell higher ideals to the general public, when it's their money you're asking for.

    - What If: Magic elves could fill up your car every night, so you never have to take time out of your day to visit a gas station?
    - What If: You could have a car where stop-and-go traffic didn't kill your gas mileage?
    - What If: Your car's gas pedal were as responsive as your thoughts?
    - What If: You never had to take time off work to change the oil, replace spark plugs, or get a smog check?
    - What If: Every time you stepped on the brakes, your car put some gas back into the tank?
    - What If: You could fill up the tank of your big huge SUV and get change back from a $20 bill?
    - What If: Add your thoughts here...

    Remember the marketing disaster that Pringles brand of potato chips experienced when they were touted as being "new fangled". Nobody wanted new. Things took off when instead they focused on the convenience of the packaging, and so forth. We can't win the EV battle by focusing on KWH and J1772 plugs.
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  • Aug 10, 2016
    3Victoria
    Great ideas!
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  • Aug 10, 2016
    Saghost
    What if upgrading to AWD made your car more efficient?
    What if you could take out the engine and use the space for more cargo?
    What if you could have hospital quality air in the car, even when stuck behind a stinky truck?
    What if your car came out to meet you every morning?
    What if you never had to pay for gas on road trips?
    What if the car could drive itself in stop and go traffic and long boring freeway stretches?
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  • Aug 10, 2016
    gavine
    What if: You can warm-up the cabin of the car while it is parked inside the garage before your commute?
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  • Aug 10, 2016
    ccutrer
    What if you could turn on climate control from your phone minutes before you get to the car, so that it's perfectly comfortable by the time you walk out to the car?
    What if you could sit in the parking lot with the A/C on, and not worry about idling?
    What if your climate control was just as efficient while idling as it is when you are going at freeway speeds?
    What if your car received software updates as often and as easily as your phone, gaining new features and bug fixes?
    What if interacting with your cars infotainment system was as easy and intuitive as using your tablet? (seriously - I had a 2017 Audi Q7 rental for two days - I couldn't figure out something as simple as zooming the map in and out)
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  • Aug 10, 2016
    jerry33
    But not by much :)

    2004 Prius MPG from the logbook. (Complete years only):
    2003-2004 -- 50.8 mpg 17,628 miles
    2005 -- 52.6 mpg 14,688 miles
    2006 -- 56.3 mpg 16,174 miles
    2007 -- 57.3 mpg 18,384 miles
    2008 -- 59.9 mpg 21,755 miles
    2009 -- 61.4 mpg 16,177 miles
    2010 -- 65.2 mpg 12,134 miles
    2011 -- 66.9 mpg 11,272 miles
    2012 -- 69.2 mpg 16,212 miles
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  • Aug 10, 2016
    RubberToe
    Oops, I take that back. I misunderstood your comment.

    RT
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  • Aug 10, 2016
    JeffK
    Jeez, you must drive like a grandma with the AC off... I have a gen II prius (2007) and barely manage 45 mpg. I mean you keep a logbook, so that says something about the care you probably take while driving.
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  • Aug 10, 2016
    jerry33
    Actually, I ran the A/C quite a bit in that car (It's Texas, you do go without A/C). Mostly it's learning how to work with the car's engineering. (Having a ScanGauge and driving to the ignition timing helps.) I kept a logbook because I was annoyed at the number of folks who complained about the mpg. I'm not as anal about the Model S, so I just take a photo of the information once a month.
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  • Aug 10, 2016
    EaglesPDX
    1. US needs to sell 10M EV's per year to replace 250M gasoline cars/light trucks. Eyup.
    2. BMW i3 and BMW EV's and hybrids are close to 10% of US EV sales. Good for them.
    3. Non-Tesla EV's and plug ins are 70% of market vs. Tesla's 30%. Good for both of them.

    The bizarre snobbery of a few Tesla owners that only Teslas are worthy goes against Tesla's own reason for being.

    The exaggerated defensiveness of Teslarati in this thread demonstrates it. They are totally terrified of BMW's EV's.

    Unctuous sublimely.
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  • Aug 10, 2016
    EaglesPDX
    2007 Prius was rated 46 mpg.

    Rented a 2016 Prius in SLC and it zipped right up Parley's Summit on I80 just fine. Total two day MPG at high altitude, high speed (70 mpg speed limit) and the Prius got 56.7 MPG.

    The redesigned plug-in Prius coming out in 2017(?) is going to likely have the same MPGe rating as the TS70. A great car for anyone looking to significantly cut their oil use and GHG emissions.
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  • Aug 10, 2016
    ohmman
    Out of curiosity, are the Eagles a high school team in Portland?
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  • Aug 10, 2016
    EaglesPDX
    Out of curiosity, have you ever seen a thread of such near hysteric Tesla snobs terrified of Tesla competitors?

    Eagles are an NFL/NFC East team that is going to be last in NFC east for years due to getting rid of Chip Kelly and trading away three years of draft picks for a 3rd round, 2nd tier college QB who had one good year and will never beat out Sam Bradford.

    Eagles owner Jeff Lurie has a Tesla and runs Eagles stadium with futuristic wind turbines mounted atop the stadium.
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  • Aug 10, 2016
    ohmman
    I watched a Louis CK special a few nights ago. I laughed quite a bit. I guess because I'm terrified of him.

    *Edited after your edit. Ah, those Eagles. Yeah, I grew up near Philly - didn't recognize the avatar as related to them, though. Those Eagles make a lot of personnel mistakes, not just the ones you mentioned. Seems to be a habit.
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  • Aug 10, 2016
    EaglesPDX
    Except the pitchfork Teslarati in this thread aren't laughing they are freaking out of over BMW selling EV's.
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  • Aug 10, 2016
    Odebek
    No blasting necessary. The S (even in the base models) is a luxury for sure, no getting around that. Really great that you realized it and have an option to transition to the Model 3. Have you thought about selling now and using Uber/Lyft until you can get your 3? (Or willing to continue so that you can keep your place in line?)
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  • Aug 10, 2016
    Odebek
    You no nothing Eagles PDX... Us pitchfork Teslarati would really welcome a true BMW Performance EV Sedan, the whole point is to transition to a post ICE world. We want all of the ICE companies to get EV religion and join Tesla on this new playing field. What is hilarious is that instead of accelerating their development into the obvious solution, they are developing commercials trying to lure the EV customer base to their shitty plug-in hybrids.
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  • Aug 10, 2016
    CuriousG
    Should Tesla worry about competition? Sure. Should Tesla worry about BMW's current offering as competition? No.
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  • Aug 10, 2016
    Garlan Garner
    Going back to ICE until ?.
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  • Aug 10, 2016
    ecarfan
    What an absurd statement. Tesla fans want every automaker to build long range BEVs that people want to buy because they are compelling cars. Pathetic hybrids that go a few miles on electricity are not a solution to anything.

    Your exaggerated defensiveness of the i3 is terrifying.
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  • Aug 10, 2016
    EaglesPDX
    Ford Fusion Energi has equal emissions and MPGe to a Tesla 70. Prius has done more to cut oil use and emissions than Tesla will do in 10 years with their most ambitious sales plan.

    The Teslerati here are more like TeslaTrumper's saying all kinds of crazy things to justify an untenable position that the Tesla is the ONLY EV plug in one should buy.
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  • Aug 10, 2016
    Model S M.D.
    Time to employ the ignore button again :)
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  • Aug 10, 2016
    AnxietyRanger
    I am usually the first to admit there certainly exists a Teslarati with pitchforks, and a real issue as mainly a car owner and enthusiast on these forums can be the prevalence of people invested in the TSLA stock and acting accordingly. It makes it tough to discuss some issues, because some people have other motives than just the car ownership.

    However, I would also argue at least a part of this "Teslarati" - equally problematic at times from a car ownership discussion perspective - are the EV revolution enthusiasts. They too can be protective of Tesla, but for different reasons than, say, talking up a TSLA investement. They too certainly are on a mission, but that mission transcends Tesla.

    And IMO this latter part, the people on the BEV mission - which is probably a big part of the TMC community in general and people in this thread in particular - genuinely would welcome a serious BEV effort from Tesla's competition and, yes, vocally hate the fact that this has not yet happened.

    Look, very few outside of Tesla - and certainly none of the expensive Germans - is really trying very hard with their current BEVs. They have their reasons for not trying very hard. They'd probably rather not try very hard. Which results in heavily compromised cars. Maybe in two years they will be trying more, who knows.

    Feel free to blame a Tesla fan for snobbery if they dismiss a Leaf or a Bolt, but then I don't think many here do. A lot of people on TMC are genuinely appreciative of at least some efforts from Chevy and Nissan. At least it seems they are trying a bit. You also hear good rapport of the BMW Active-E on these parts, because for the time, it was a relatively competent effort at a BEV, even if a conversion still.

    However when the current best a high-end German brand comes up with is an A3 e-tron PHEV or a BMW 330 PHEV or a seriously compromised/weirded out i3 BEV, calling that compromise out is hardly snobbery. Expecting better of these high-end brands is only natural, it comes with their turf.

    A day and age when BMW is indeed lacking in snobbery points is a day when BMW, arguably, is doing something wrong. And while out of practical considerations I can see more point in buying PHEVs than some, I genuinely agree BMW (and Audi and MB) have lost their edge when it comes to this hottest thing in cars. They used to be the ones I looked up to and bought. Now, phev... I bought into Tesla because they became better products than the Germans. I am not alone.

    Buying a compromised EV from Chevy or Nissan for a price-point comes with the territory (and shame on anyone looking down on that!), but buying a compromised BMW is a lot less appealing.

    I mean, buying a bad high-end product is not anti-snobbery, it is just stupid.
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  • Aug 11, 2016
    AustinPowers
    About the exchange rate, yes, oops, mybad. Have gotten that one the wrong way round. Anyway, you got my drift ;)

    But about the other point: the average new car selling price in Germany last year was 28.5K Euro. Cars that cost in excess of 80K Euro are a rarity in private hands. Lots of executive company cars on leasing contracts of course, but those in general are not the ones choosing a Tesla. With many large leasing companies over here, Tesla isn't even in their portfolio.

    And private customers over here who have that much money to begin with, they tend to indeed buy very well optioned if not even fully loaded vehicles. Problem is, in contrast to the US, people over here don't seem too fond of too much "stretching to get a car", and certainly not in that price range. They might be stretching to get a higher specced VW Passat or a well-optioned C-Class, but not a luxury car.
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  • Aug 11, 2016
    AnxietyRanger
    I will have to cede to your experience on what a German buyer in particular does. I think, in general, on TMC there are plenty of base-level Model S buyers with only a few options and I would imagine this to be true in some parts of Europe at least as well. It certainly seems to be true for the U.S.?

    Also, I think Model S is in a bit of a special place anywhere in the world. A notable portion of Model S buyers seem to be people that otherwise would never reach to such a high priced car, yet now have done so because it is the only long-range EV (I expect this sort of upshopping to end completely with the Model 3 of course).

    I mean, some people have moved from a Prius to an S Class price range with the Model S. We have such people on TMC. Whether or not this applies to Germany in particular, of course, may be a bit different question.

    Germany is... er... special, when it comes to both money and cars... But now I digress into those dangerous stereotypes, sorry. ;)
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  • Aug 11, 2016
    Jayc
    I agree with your point about the Prius and I am speaking as an owner. Sometimes I find it hilarious when nowadays people describe how their clean diesels stop and start automatically or how their nissan leaf takes just a second to reach 20mph or even how their EVs are so smooth from start. The fact is that the the Prius was doing this for the past 20 years but the general population did not bother because a bunch of boy racer clark-son wanna-be journalists gave hybrids a bad name.

    From Tesla's perspective however, they have done something that no other manufacturer has done successfully and that is, especially with Model 3, they have managed to design an EV that is better than most (if not all) other cars in its class and most importantly, Tesla managed to make it very appealing - one that is bound to make owners proud to own.

    Wind back 20 years and it was perfectly fine for a green car or EV to look special or different and for it to come with a host of limitations because at the time it was good enough just being clean and efficient. The problem with Tesla's competition (including all other EVs and Hybrids) is that somewhere along the line, they forgot that eventually, green cars will also have to look and perform very well in order to appeal to the next generation car buyer - that is the only way to guarantee long-term takeup. In contrast, Tesla's mission was that from day one, you can see why fans consider them very special.
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  • Aug 11, 2016
    S?XY P100D
    I test drove the BMW i3 and really liked it. However, it's just too expensive. I would have considered buying it years ago for half price, say fully loaded for around $28k coz I view it as an upgrade to the Honda Civic but not on par with the Accord.

    Too late now when I can get a long range sport-luxury EV, in the near future, for even less after tax incentives! That's why the TM3 is such a big deal.
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  • Aug 11, 2016
    Chopr147
    I "test drove" my friends BMW i3 and I did like it. In a Scion Cube kind of way :)
    The interior felt very cheap to me though. The driving position is too high in my opinion. Tesla has no "fear" of BMW , the i3, i8 or 330i though. EaglesPDX knows this as well. He is just trying to illicit a reaction. Ignore him. I would like to see better EV's on the road other than Tesla. I believe Mercedes Benz is planning on a release in the next 2 years of a Tesla competitor.
    By the way Tesla again won the award for "Highest quality vehicle industry wide" by Strategic Vision
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  • Aug 11, 2016
    scaesare
    Hmmm... a little back-of-the-virtual-napkin figuring...

    Toyota has sold ~5.7mil Prius' worldwide since their introduction in 1997. They started with an mpg in the low 40's, and now in the low 50's. So say an avg of 48 or so.

    Compact cars back then got in the mid-20's, and now the high 20's (not a lot better, honestly). So say maybe 27 mpg on average.

    So the Prius has sold 5.7mil cars, each shaving ~20MPG on average in 20 years.

    Tesla in the next 10 years (you didn't say "will have sold", so you are speaking future tense) will, if they hit their 500K/yr targets starting in 2018 and ramp up from there, have sold at least 4.25million cars, and it could very well match or exceed Toyota's 5.7mil if the ramp is anything like they have seen with sales thus far.

    Each of those cars saves far more oil and emissions that a Prius would have.

    So I'd have to say you prognostication seems suspect.

    .

    Funny, I've not seen that quote... particularly in this thread.
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  • Aug 11, 2016
    gavine
    The Priui still burn gasoline. Just because they save some vs. non-hybrids, doesn't put them in the same league as a full BEV. That's like saying I saved $100 buying this watch on sale for $200. No, you didn't SAVE $100, you still spent $200.
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  • Aug 11, 2016
    JeffK
    I hear the same thing all the time from every girl I've ever dated...

    A typical conversation:
    - I bought it because it was on sale...
    Do you need it?
    - No
    Do you even want it?
    - No
    Sigh o_O

    This equates to

    Why did you buy the hybrid?
    - Because I'm saving the environment
    But it still uses gas and puts out pollution...
    - Yeah, but less than other people...
    So, you are simply killing people more slowly?!
    - I guess...? :confused:
    { facepalm }

    Air Pollution Kills More Than 5 Million People Every Year
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  • Aug 11, 2016
    MiamiNole
    So you're implying that reducing your carbon footprint is meaningless if you're not reducing it to zero. Gotcha. :)
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  • Aug 11, 2016
    JeffK
    Haha no, I'm saying that as the price of BEVs comes down and when people have a choice, there's no reason to half ass it.
    �
  • Aug 11, 2016
    Red Sage
    That was under the old EPA 2-Cycle testing. Under the current EPA 5-Cycle testing regimen, the fuel economy is a bit less than that.
    �
  • Aug 11, 2016
    Red Sage
    I would be terrified to be limited to a whole 14 miles of fully electric range or less after spending so much money. That is literally 4% of the car's overall range. At about $6,000 less, the Chevrolet VOLT offers 70 more miles of overall range, and 12.6% of that is fully electric. [FOUL] BMW.
    �
  • Aug 11, 2016
    Red Sage
    No. We are freaking out over BMW offering pitiful electric vehicles and crippled plug-in hybrids.
    �
  • Aug 11, 2016
    Red Sage
    Show me that highly efficient Prius that has even a 50 mile all electric range, let alone 200 miles, and will get you to 60 MPH from a dead stop in under six seconds. Go ahead. I'll wait.

    The Fusion Energi, as noted previously, is definitely a better buy than the BMW 330e. That does not make it a better buy than the Tesla Model S 70. Especially not if someone is determined not to burn gasoline in their car.

    Hey! There's no need to be insulting! [DELTA TANGO] need not be brought into this discussion at all!
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  • Aug 11, 2016
    Red Sage
    I'm thinking you may be correct... I just want to get in a few more jabs first, Coach!
    �
  • Aug 11, 2016
    Red Sage
    Very well stated on all points! Thank you.

    I don't particularly like the BMW 3-Series. I think that for many years their cars got by on reputation alone. Perhaps the reputation was deserved, but I don't care. I thought their cars were inherently ugly for a very long time, and I was astounded then, as I am now, at the premium pricing they command (just for being rear wheel drive?) when cars I perceive as being at least as good and likely far better cost quite a bit less money. It's bad enough that the BMW 320i costs around $10,000 more than a Toyota Camry LE. It is far worse when BMW is asking nearly $44,000 for a 330e that has 70 miles less overall range than a $38,000 Chevrolet VOLT that has a two gallon lower fuel capacity. And when an 'as tested' dollar value for the BMW 330e crosses the $60,000 threshold, I am that much more offended. BMW should be neither lauded nor rewarded for this travesty of a vehicle. Because it sucks.
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  • Aug 11, 2016
    S?XY P100D
  • Aug 11, 2016
    Topher
    This is a common misconception about hypermiling. The truth is, as usual, more complicated.

    Thank you kindly.
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  • Aug 11, 2016
    JeffK
    Not really complicated, but thanks for the dislike it's always a pleasure :)

    The new 2008 EPA ratings for my 2007 Prius are 51 mpg and at 45 mpg in the summers I think I'm doing pretty well. I find it interesting when someone who also has a Gen II prius get's much better gas mileage than I do. The truth is not more complicated than basically driving more conservatively, AC, acceleration, velocity, and even tire inflation are all important factors in energy usage required for a vehicle to go certain distances. It's not some magical voodoo.

    I'd love to see a person drive more aggressively than I do in a Gen II Prius with the AC or heat on and get significantly better gas mileage... It'd make me think there's something wrong with my car.
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  • Aug 11, 2016
    Neohippy
    I own a 2010 Prius and bought it to save on gas. I had a Lexus GS430. If you are looking for something economical and great realizability nothing beats it. The new Prius prime has double the range on the battery. I'm buying a M3 because I miss the performance and luxury that my Prius lacks. I'm just hoping the new M3 is going to reliable. I have owned mostly Toyota and Honda products so I'm used to that.
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  • Aug 11, 2016
    Topher
    Glad to hear you like feedback.

    I am not a great hypermiler, but I get 62MPG on a specific route I take a lot, when I am paying attention to hypermiling, and 55 MPG when I am not. Same car, same route, same time (i.e. same average speed). People who are really good get 110 MPG in (roughly) the same car (on what I presume are similar circumstances). It is complicated. You should investigate it.

    Thank you kindly.
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  • Aug 11, 2016
    Chopr147
    Yes you made it up for this forum! :) Just kidding. The quotes were because it was my friends car not a dealership test drive.
    �
  • Aug 11, 2016
    ex-bimmer
    As a life long BMW owner* and (now former) fan boy I am thoroughly embarrassed BMW would resort to something this stupid.
    Only thing I can think of is they're trying to sway the rabid BMW fanatics.

    *My car ownership history. (I've been a member of the BMW Car Club of America for about 20 years as well.)
    1983 BMW 533i
    1992 BMW 325i
    2001 BMW 330i
    2011 BMW 335i (looking very much like the last one)
    �
  • Aug 11, 2016
    SageBrush
    Hi Topher,

    Well ... 110 mpg in a Prius on a round-trip course has only been achieved by driving ~ 20-25 mph average so far as I know. My 12 years experience driving Toyota hybrids in a not-too-congested city and obeying the speed limits was ~ 70 mpg average during temperate weather and no better than 80 mpg round-trip.

    That caveat aside, you are right that hypermiling is a lot more than just slow driving as JeffK tries to imply. OTOH, "aggressive" driving (by which I mostly mean speeding to red lights and riding the two pedals) will take any car down and level the results, hybrids included.

    --
    As an aside, and somewhat back to this thread, JeffK reminds me why I have not completely abandoned the idea of buying the 22 mile plug-in Prius instead of the TM3. I estimate our current annual use patterns work out to ~ 15,000 miles a year consuming ~ 100 gallons of fuel in the plug-in. This is in part true because I hypermile and do not really care about driving 75 mph+ to work instead of 65 mph. If my commute was considerably longer I would feel different.

    These BEV purity arguments mostly do not persuade me since I tend to be tech agnostic and focused on environmental results, but the plug-in does surprisingly well for my use case despite the nominally crappy sticker numbers:

    Average American ICE car: 750 gallon a year
    Prius 22 mile plug-in: 100 gallons a year
    Tesla: 0 gallons a year

    86% reduction in petrol use employing ~ 15 20% the battery size.
    And yes, I realize that the Tesla gives me more battery in-lieu of the ICE. I only want to point out that these "awful" plug-ins that Teslarati are so quick to disparage can be quite reasonable choices. The tribal witch-hunting is getting old.
    �
  • Aug 11, 2016
    Big Dog
    not sure I agree, jayc
    As part of the general population, I never got on board bcos I believe that Prius & Leaf (and others) are butt-ugly. I was actually impressed with some of their performances, however, so not swayed by journalists.

    OTOH, here in California, those car pool lane stickers are clearly worth the "look" and if I still had a long commute I would have jumped at a Prius -- for the car pool lane.

    Yeah, but just for early adopters.

    No, not next generation, but mass market; in other words, the masses of the current generation. And if 20 years ago, a Prius looked like a M3.....
    �
  • Aug 11, 2016
    glenhurst
    Out of curiousity, if the MS was a reach, perhaps too much of a reach, why didn't you opt for a Leaf?
    �
  • Aug 11, 2016
    Garlan Garner
    The leaf didn't have the range I needed.

    My job is exactly 49.3 miles from my driveway.
    �
  • Aug 11, 2016
    JohnSnowNW
    My Leaf is rated at 107 miles.
    �
  • Aug 11, 2016
    Garlan Garner
    LOL yeah. I'm not willing to chance making it to work and back home every day with only 7 miles to spare. What if:

    The wind blows against me all the way
    Or if I have to take a detour
    Or if I want to go out for lunch
    Or if it rains ( more power needed to go through water )
    Or if I want to run the AC
    Or if I want to go more than 55mph
    Or if the regenerative braking doesn't work properly. wait what?
    Or if the auto-pilot draws a little more power than it should. wait what am I saying
    Or if I want to demonstrate to my friends what the Ludicrous mode is. wait....that makes no sense.
    Or if I want to look cool.
    Or if __________ <--- Insert anything you like in here.
    �
  • Aug 11, 2016
    JohnSnowNW
    That's no way to live. Living on the edge is where it's at!
    �
  • Aug 11, 2016
    Garlan Garner
    I know ... I know. you are right. I should take more risks. Wait.. my MS was a real risk....financially.
    �
  • Aug 11, 2016
    ohmman
    Or if my workplace installs a charger :)
    �
  • Aug 11, 2016
    Garlan Garner
    That would be perfect.....except they would probably ask me to pay for it. Or hand me a 6 foot extension cord asking "Will this work"?

    ( I have to be careful never to let anyone here know where I work. )
    �
  • Aug 11, 2016
    Red Sage
    Or a fire, or an earthquake, you get struck by lighting, run out of gas, have a flat tire...? Locusts! It's not your fault!

    �
  • Aug 11, 2016
    Garlan Garner
    That was hilarious.
    �
  • Aug 12, 2016
    AustinPowers
    You are right though ;)
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  • Aug 12, 2016
    EVie'sDad
    Either that, or a few commercials altering slightly the storyline, to explain why the Supercharger stalls were empty at the parking garage (because SpC takes much less than a 110v connection) or the homeowner comparing prices of the Model S (avail today) versus the 330e and then deciding to purchase the Tesla, as tax incentives and electrical range far exceed anything bmw will offer for four more years.
    �
  • Aug 12, 2016
    EVie'sDad
    The 2015 Tesla is rated at 100 mpg. And is much more efficent than and ice or hybrid.
    �
  • Aug 12, 2016
    AustinPowers
    By the way, interestingly the D option seems to be almost a given for customers in Germany. According to the KBA statistic, the majority of Teslas registered in 2016 were of the D variant (all 25 Model X this year so far, and 781 out of 838 Model S total, 80 out of 80 in July)
    �
  • Aug 12, 2016
    jerry33
    Right. I use half the energy in my Model S as I did in the Prius.
    �
  • Aug 12, 2016
    spottyq
    That doesn't surprise me at all, and I'd guess it would be the same in other countries, since the only way to order a Tesla without the D is to order an MS 75kWh or less. All MX are D, and MS 90 is also always D.
    It would be more interesting to compare the MS 60, 70 and 75 vs. MS 60D, 70D an 75D. And then again, it wouldn't be really representative since is only concerns the lower-end of Tesla's offering.
    �
  • Aug 12, 2016
    Spidy
    Exactly. It's not that everyone wants AWD. It's that the 90D only comes with AWD and with our Autobahn speeds a S75 really restricts you especially if you are used to premium cars. Also since the network is very extensive (not just one interstate trough the desert) some Supercharger locations are not that great to reach depending on the route and the 90kWh battery offers more flexibility.
    �
  • Aug 12, 2016
    Garlan Garner
    Efficient Heating

    If my car breaks down on the expressway....I at least want some heat.
    �
  • Aug 12, 2016
    Saghost
    Where are you going with this? Some EV failures will leave you without heat, some will leave full heating available.

    Some ICE failures will leave you without heat, some will leave nearly full heating available.

    I'd argue that it's much more likely to have an ICE problem that leaves you stranded without heat, given how integrated the heating is with the engine and the lower reliability of the parts involved.
    �
  • Aug 12, 2016
    MassModel3
    Seems you need a much longer driveway! :D
    �
  • Aug 12, 2016
    garsh
    Then I suggest getting heated seats. Using them is more efficient, simply because the heat is being applied more directly to your body. While I never use the heater in my Leaf, I do use the heated seats & steering wheel all the time - it has no effect on range.
    �
  • Aug 12, 2016
    EaglesPDX
    Chuckle...20 pages of hysterical rants over the BMW 330e say otherwise. BMW's 330e is for people who want to cut their GHG emissions now by 30-100% vs. three years from now, run on pure EV for 60% of their driving and (so important to some Tesla fans) have a "performance" car that can do red light racing and merge lane mania plus have the status of being expensive as a Tesla.

    72 MPGe for the 330e
    89 MPGe for Tesla 70D.

    The 330e's 14 miles on pure EV would mean, even charging just from home, average person (12.6 mile one way commute) could do their AM commute as an EV cutting their daily emissions by 60%. Work charging and they are 100% EV for 50% of their driving. Likely near 80% of their driving (local market, kids school and sports) in EV mode. Nice work and high tec, high status car (important issues to many Tesla and BMW owners alike).

    The only thing "crippled" is the one-dimensional thinking of some Teslarati snobs.
    �
  • Aug 12, 2016
    S?XY P100D
    Then put your money where your mouth is and buy one. ;) See if you can prove us wrong.
    �
  • Aug 12, 2016
    Krugerrand
    ...and the utility to carry up to 5 adults and 2 children, or a bunch of Ikea furniture, pull a small trailer, take family trips and use the Supercharger Network to get to their destination with zero fuel costs, all the while being encapsulated in one of the safest vehicles ever produced, and do it in comfort and style via a unique AP system, air suspension, ability to preheat/precool the cabin, BIO defense filter system because I might have a passenger with breathing sensitivities etc., etc., etc.,...

    Yep, the 330e covers all those bases too. :rolleyes:

    *insert calling you a name because I'm having a self-righteous moment and think it'll make me sound clever and right*
    �
  • Aug 12, 2016
    S'toon
    I haven't seen a single "hysterical rant" in this thread, except by one person who bashes the rest of the board. Somehow every threat they are involved in devolves into 20 pages or so of people debunking what they say.
    �
  • Aug 12, 2016
    scaesare
    Given the entire premise of this thread is the response to the BMW commercials that even the most conservative of folks would have to agree are centered around FUD, that's an interesting take.
    �
  • Aug 12, 2016
    3Victoria
    And the BMW 330e also gives you ICE: upkeep, oil changes, tuneups, polution, complexicity.

    If one is going to include a battery and electric drive chain, then why add ICE complexity, complications and tailpipe?
    �
  • Aug 12, 2016
    EaglesPDX
    The "premise" of this thread is "M3 Terrifies BMW".

    Just the opposite of course as the BMW notes. The T3 gives BMW a great selling point for a performance plug-in hybrid that would allow someone to have a high priced, high performance status car like a Tesla now and not have the range anxiety issues.

    The T3 is a marketing opportunity for BMW. It's exactly what Tesla wants, other car mfg's building electric cars, cutting emissions. More people buy any of BMW's four electric vehicles, the more BMW will make and sell and the fewer emissions.

    The publicity around the T3 makes people consider BMW 300e.
    �
  • Aug 12, 2016
    Saghost
    You do understand that the MPGe rating you just quoted for the 330e is only for the battery portion of the drive, right?

    If you only drive 14 miles at a time and keep your speed and acceleration down, you can drive the 330e on electricity only - and use 24% more electricity than the worst Tesla (the one you picked) would for the same drive.

    If you go further or faster, it gets much worse for the BMW as you start mixing 31 mpg gas miles into the total.
    �
  • Aug 12, 2016
    EaglesPDX
    Because, as BMW points out, you can buy it now, get great "performance", get status of expensive purchase and get as low CHG emissions as a T3.
    �
  • Aug 12, 2016
    JeffK
    but you can't... so there's that
    �
  • Aug 12, 2016
    EaglesPDX
    You do understand that the MPGe range I quoted for the 330e is only for the battery portion of the drive, right?

    You do understand that the MPGe range of 14 miles is greater than average commute of 12.6 miles, right?

    You do understand that if you go further and faster in a T3, it gets much worse for the Tesla as you start needing to change plans to accommodate location and availability of charging stations and the time it will require to charge, right?

    You do understand that a top 20% income earner could buy a BMW300e now versus waiting two-three years for a T3 and cut their emissions by 80% over the next two-three years, right?

    You do understand that cutting GHG emissions is the goal, right?
    �
  • Aug 12, 2016
    ecarfan
    What you call "hysterical" I call "based on reason and logical analysis".

    The 330e is a half-assed attempt by BMW to conform to ever expanding regulations in European cities to exclude vehicle that are only powered by an ICE. BMW isn't serious about BEVs and has yet to make a viable Tesla competitor. BMW is locked into a 20th century mindset and is desperately postponing going pure electric because it is hooked on fossil fuels and the near term profits that flow from their current ICE vehicle line.

    By the time BMW does make a real BEV, years from now, the company will have lost so much market share to Tesla that it will never recover.

    You are welcome to disagree. We shall see whose predictions are more accurate 5 years from now. But your sarcastic and dismissive attitude does not serve you well.
    �
  • Aug 12, 2016
    Takumi
    Guys, can we all get our heads together and form a company? The troll is eating up whatever you're feeding it. I'm pretty sure we'd kill in the marketplace!

    On a serious note, how does the 330e fare against the i3?
    �
  • Aug 12, 2016
    EaglesPDX
    Most hysterics think their fears and subsequent behavior are justified. In this case, a performance car with a 72 MPGe now vs. a performance car with an 89 MPGe later, there's no reason for the hysteria of a buyer choosing one excellent low emissions purchase over another.

    The more BMW sells high MPGe vehicles, the better it is for the environment, better for everyone who wants to see more low emissions vehicles on the road. If BMW can sell a bunch of 300e's now, it will be encouraged to design and build more low emissions vehicles. In 2019 when a person can purchase a T3 in a reasonable time (90 days), if BMW is encouraged by 300e sales, the 2019 300e could have an EV range of 35 miles and cover 100% of most people's commute and around town basic driving.

    Some Teslerati have hysterical fears over BMW and other mfg's offering plug in vehicles when that is exactly what we want Tesla's success to accomplish. They have taken their eyes off the prize (cutting CHG emissions) for a childish defense of their sandbox at the expense of reducing GHG every way we can as fast as we can.
    �
  • Aug 12, 2016
    scaesare
    I'm sure this is "drippled, one dimensional thinking", but, uh.. no.

    If you want to decide that using only a narrow subset of the vehicles capabilities defines the overall result, then go read the BEV Dogma thread and substitute "BMW 330e" for "Volt"
    �
  • Aug 12, 2016
    ecarfan
    Your idea that some Tesla supporters have "hysterical fears" of hybrids is misplaced. The hysteria is simply amusement and outright laughter because BMW is trying to convince people that an ICE hybrid with minuscule EV range is a better car than a Tesla.

    In reality, BMW is terrified of losing market share to Tesla, and that causes BMW to release pathetically absurd ads. In the meantime, Tesla keeps selling increasing numbers of BEVs and moves inexorably towards Model 3 mass production.

    Now if BMW launched a long range BEV with a high speed charging network at a price competitive to Tesla, I would applaud them. But BMW is obviously incapable of doing that now or for several years to come, and I am certain that over the next decade BMW will not build a high speed charging network for their BEVs that'll at some point they will have no choice but to produce.
    �
  • Aug 12, 2016
    Yggdrasill
    This seems relevant to the thread: Benzinverbrauch: BMW - 3er - Spritmonitor.de

    In Germany the average consumption for a 330e is 5.6 liters per 100 km, or 42 MPG. That doesn't include the electricity used.

    It's an absurd thought that the 330e would inspire enough Model 3 reservation holders to get a 330e that BMW would break even with their ad budget. Not going to happen.
    �
  • Aug 12, 2016
    SageBrush
    For whom ? Head over to the the BMW forums for an hour and tell me what fraction of posts over the past week mention AGW is some way other than to deny it's existence. If plug-ins are mentioned, I'm willing to wager the rationale is HOV access.

    My opinion -- The BMW330e will steal VERY few TM3 sales. Not enough to even bother counting. OTOH, if BMW convinces it's customer base to hybridize or plug-in a little, that is cool. After all, the alternative is crappy BMW ICE all the way.
    �
  • Aug 12, 2016
    S?XY P100D
    I wouldn't call BMW ICE crappy though as they are indeed beautiful machinery.

    I would say however that Tesla cars beat the crap out of them any day! :D
    �
  • Aug 12, 2016
    Saghost
    I had trouble finding any discussion of the 330e on BMW forums, but here's a 5 page thread on a UK based forum about the car and ordering it:

    So who has ordered a 330e so far?

    As you surmised, there's only one even tangential mention of reducing GHG - by a gentlemen who bought one and assures us he's not a polar bear hugging eco warrior, but not a non carer either, and bought the car for the tax savings mostly - a fairly common motivation in the UK it seems.
    �
  • Aug 12, 2016
    sitter_k
    It makes total sense if you know the posting history of this member.
    �
  • Aug 12, 2016
    EV-lutioin
    Terrified of a "car" with bicycle tires and a lawnmower engine in the back?
    �
  • Aug 12, 2016
    JeffK
    That was my exact thought when I saw an i3 for the first time!
    �
  • Aug 12, 2016
    gavine
    I would rather see TM3 reservation holders who can't wait any longer buy a 330e than an ICE. At least they will be more inclined to buy a full BEV on their next purchase after that. We know that plug-in hybrid owners typically move to full BEVs on their next car because they now understand benefits of electric drive and realize that even the small range is usually enough for most commutes. They also learn that 200+ miles is typically way more than enough.
    �
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