Jul 3, 2013
WarpedOne Al those features should note consume more than about 10W of standby power.
This sums up to about 0,25 kWh/day, about 1,5 kWh/week, 6 kWh/month, one full charge / year.
As it is the car' standby power is around 150W. Ridiculous and embarrassing.�
Jul 3, 2013
twinklejet From energy.gov:
http://energy.gov/energysaver/articles/estimating-appliance-and-home-electronic-energy-use
STANDBY POWER SUMMARY TABLE:
We measured the standby power of many, many, products. The table below summarizes those measurements, with the average, minimum, and maximum power levels observed while in standby.
http://standby.lbl.gov/summary-table.html�
Jul 3, 2013
ElSupreme My cable box standby power (it doesn't actually turn off) is about 35W continuous. If I actually turn it off it has about a 4 minute boot time. I find that ridiculous and embarrassing.
I fully expect the Tesla to have more stuff to do while 'idle'. All my cable box really should do is monitor a timer and wake itself up on time to record my shows, or download a new guide once a day.
But we also need to remember that the Model S, is monitoring temperature also. So running pumps, fans, and if necessary heat/AC. I know for a fact that my car will run coolant while it is 'off'. So I would expect to see a good bit of vampire loss during extreme temperatures, while parked.
But in my garage I think 35W or less is about what I would deem acceptable.�
Jul 3, 2013
markb1 It's kind of outrageous how much energy most consumer electronics use while idle. A good benchmark would be a battery powered device like a cell phone. The iPhone 5 draws about .03 watts in standby, and it's still doing a number of things in that mode. Any device that is using more energy than that, but does less, is using too much energy. (I'm not talking about Model S, here. I don't know what it needs to do while idle.) It seems most consumer electronics manufacturers think that if it plugs in, a watt or two is acceptable when idle.�
Jul 3, 2013
mitch672 The car can "wake itself up" once an hour, update its charging status, coolant loop temperatures, etc, then it should go back to sleep.
I don't thinks anyone needs more than that, if they do, they can put in a toggle on the settings page, "stay awake (warning: consumes lots of power)". So you can have a choice, run low power standby or have instant remote access, at a cost. Right now we only have choice 2 (instant access)�
Jul 3, 2013
montgom626 I can tell you that 3 kw a day is not acceptable. My 2012 Volt loses nothing in 24 hours. And the Volt is one complicated car with a 16 kW battery pack. The Tesla Roadster is reported to lose almost nothing in 24 hours.�
Jul 3, 2013
dpodoll At least give us a way to shut all the stuff off when we want to park long term (like at the airport while on vacation)�
Jul 3, 2013
stopcrazypp Tesla said they will address this issue by bringing back sleep mode:
http://www.popsci.com/cars/article/2013-05/does-tesla-model-s-electric-car-pollute-more-suv�
Jul 4, 2013
Seegem How are you getting percentage soc?
�
Jul 9, 2013
RichardC I am continuing to see average daily losses of approximately 16 km = 3.2 kWHr = 135 Watts average power consumption. Indoor storage at temperatures between 20 to 30 degrees Celsius. No clear difference between versions 4.4 and 4.5.�
Jul 9, 2013
jerry33 As far as I know, that's expected. There was no vampire fix in 4.5. I believe the target for a fix is for late summer, although that was said some time ago and hasn't be updated.�
Jul 9, 2013
Discoducky I think the better question would be "How much is acceptable to the EU?" I wonder if there are regulatory requirements coming for shipping into the EU? Anyone know?
One Watt Initiative - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
�
Jul 10, 2013
ddruz I received this email response from Tesla's Walter Franck on July 9 in response to my question about when the vampire load will be fixed. My apology if this is a boilerplate response posted previously.
Regarding the ancillary drain of Model S. Over the course of the next several months the firmware will continue to be updated to reduce the power consumption of the car�s computer systems. We strive to strike the right balance between minimum energy consumption and ability to have the car always ready and responsive. In our next major firmware release coming this summer, the car's computer systems will use half the power they currently do when the car is off. By the end of this year, they will use about 1% of the power that they do now when the car is off. The loss of range when the car is off has absolutely nothing to do with energy needed to heat, cool or otherwise do anything to the battery pack. The battery pack simply doesn't consume energy when the car is off nor do the systems that manage it. All of the "sleep" energy loss is going to onboard computer systems and providing the useful benefit of keeping them ready to start-up at a moment�s notice when the driver returns. As noted above this energy consumption will be almost completely eliminated over the next 2-6 months.�
Jul 10, 2013
Jeff Miller
Thanks for sharing that. It's good to know the fix is still on schedule. It's also good to know that 100% of the drain is from the computer and not from battery management.�
Jul 10, 2013
gg_got_a_tesla Is there any product specialist better informed than Walter Franck?! I doubt it. Thanks for sharing, ddruz.�
Jul 10, 2013
pbrulott As a side note, I had an issue with my 12V battery which shutted down most of the onboard always on electronics. 48 hours later when the ranger arrived and was able to get the car up and running, I had lost 4 km of range compared to 30-40km in normal circumstances.
Now let's go to the 12V thread to tell my story�
Jul 10, 2013
apacheguy Sure wish they could be somewhat more specific. In "Tesla language" summer could mean anytime between now and early October. Originally, the word was that 5.0 was due out by the end of May.�
Aug 4, 2013
Merrill Anyone here any more on firmware and vampire loss in regards to updates to minimize this problem.�
Aug 14, 2013
OleJA A datapoint from user Andrewas on the norwegian forum:
Range reduced from 365km to 364km overnight from 0:10 - 9:40, so the vampire drain seems to have been reduced a lot on the EU cars
I assume he has FW 5.5 as that seems to be normal on the cars delivered to EU, not reported though.�
Aug 14, 2013
widodh As far as I know EU cars get 5.0, but I could be confused since the EU user manual assumes 5.0
Anyway, a loss of one KM is about the same as the Roadster.�
Aug 14, 2013
taraquin I find a loss of about 3 km (1,8 miles) pr day to be completely acceptable. My main concern with the major vampire-loss was leaving the car at airports for a couple of weeks for instance, but this seems more than doable now
�
Aug 14, 2013
NigelM Nobody should forget that it will hopefully become more than doable after we get the FW update. My recent experience is losing 8-10miles per day in a warm weather climate; if I'd left my car at the airport for two weeks I would have been close to zero by the time I returned. (I left it at the Tesla service center instead so no problem, but not everyone has that option)�
Aug 15, 2013
taraquin Since I live in Norway and get mye MS later this autumn I don`t have to worry, but I sincerely hope that all owners gets this FW asap.�
Aug 17, 2013
fmezz So I used the Tesla API to read the battery level every 30 minutes so I could plot battery drain overnight. Every night I check I see slightly different results. But as you can see in this graph the car will go for 2 hours without any loss and then a steady decline for about the same time.
I believe the big drop is the battery cooler kicking in. Some nights I see this and some I do not. I think the slow discharge could be charging the 12 V battery which is being discharged by various items mentioned above. I work in the garage and sometimes I heard the big contactor kick on and then you can hear the sound of a pump. The car is alive. Some nights before going to bed I see that the display over the steering wheel is on for no reason. That would take power...
�
Aug 17, 2013
widodh Interesting! But I assume this is one FW 4.5? Would love to see what 5.0 brings.�
Aug 17, 2013
viet658 That's great data. Do you happen to have it in terms of kwh as well?�
Aug 18, 2013
Jeff Miller Very nice plot. Regarding battery cooling while the car is off, see post 533 where ddruz shares an email from Tesla rep Walter Frank:
The loss of range when the car is off has absolutely nothing to do with energy needed to heat, cool or otherwise do anything to the battery pack. The battery pack simply doesn't consume energy when the car is off nor do the systems that manage it. All of the "sleep" energy loss is going to onboard computer systems and providing the useful benefit of keeping them ready to start-up at a moment�s notice when the driver returns. As noted above this energy consumption will be almost completely eliminated over the next 2-6 months.
�
Aug 18, 2013
qwk ^^^That email makes no sense.
How can a battery management system use no power?
Also, how does one explain the difference in vampire loss due to extreme weather?�
Aug 18, 2013
Zythryn It could easily use no power IF it were not active when the car is not plugged in.
However, with reports of the pumps turning on and off while the car is parked and unplugged, that is questionable.
Much of the loss over the winter was due to the algorithm used to predict range and not a true loss of power. Note, I didn't say "all" of it, but a lot of it was.
Do we have recent data from folks in hot weather country parking unplugged for a number of hours? That may give us better data.�
Aug 18, 2013
Jeff Miller I take him to mean that the car does not try to regulate the temperature of the battery when the car is off.
I think that there must be at least one exception to Walter's statement. When the temperature is below freezing and the car is preparing to charge, the battery pack needs to be heated. This may account for some of the difference between warm and cold weather vampire losses, but I'm not totally sure.
All that said, if we take Tesla's claim at face value - that they are going to eliminate vampire losses - the only way that is possible is if either battery management takes almost no power (seems very unlikely) or the car doesn't manage the battery when off (aside from when charging).�
Aug 18, 2013
montgom626
This would be a loss of about .5 kW. I would be ecstatic!!!!!!�
Aug 18, 2013
NigelM Yes, just up-thread:
During TESLIVE I left my car at the airport under covered parking with daytime temps 85-95F, lost 35 miles in 4 days. After that I was planning a two week vacation so tested (on several occasions) leaving the car unplugged 24hrs and consistently had losses never less than 8 miles and not more than 10. I talked to a local service manager and, even before I told him my experience, he said expect up to 10 miles per day loss.�
Aug 18, 2013
apacheguy so if the Tesla rep is indeed correct and there is power to the BMS when off, how do we explain the sudden drop between 12:30 and 1 am? I too have heard clicks and pump noises which seem to be coming from the battery pack.�
Aug 18, 2013
EarlyAdopter Under v4.1 when sleep was previously enabled I would loose about 3 miles (1kWh) per 24 hours. 4.1 sleep turned everything off, including the center 17" screen and couldn't be woken up for the phone app. 5.0 sleep leaves a few things on, so I'd expect losses to be closer or slightly more than 4.1. Unless of course the wizards at Tesla have worked their magic.�
Aug 22, 2013
wycolo After 14 days idle unplugged - zero miles on full standard charge of ~240 miles - new install 4.5(1.33.61) - both done 14 days ago = 160 miles showing. Great!!�
Aug 22, 2013
montgom626 are you being facetious?�
Aug 22, 2013
TommyBoy It's a confusing post to me. I think he's saying that he lost 80 miles in 14 days of his car being unplugged which is 5.7 miles lost per day. That's not crazy but I would hope for less loss than that on a daily basis.�
Aug 23, 2013
wycolo Ok, this morning 231 miles indicated from overnight charge @20A. So new software upgrade now pegs a full standard charge at 230 miles instead of the old 240. So with 160 miles remaining after 14 days being idle and unplugged, the vampire loss actually equals 70 miles. Thus I'm genuinely, unambiguously pleased!! Frankly, I expected more losses.
Normally this car is plugged in at all times. This time I thought it would be interesting to observe vampire losses in car I just trailered back from Service. So ZERO miles driven since their full standard charge, their fresh 4.5(1.33.61) upgrade, and a brand new traction battery installed in the car. Over the 14 day period I moved the car around the yard a few times and observed 'CAR OFF' on the speedo screen. Made no special effort to TURN CAR OFF since I did not wish to mess with the new firmware.
So, for example, two full weeks at Airport Parking and you have enough left over to drive ~80 miles home. Not bad at all.
--�
Aug 24, 2013
montgom626 So you believe that the 4.5 was responsible for your reduced vampire loss?�
Aug 26, 2013
wycolo > So you believe that the 4.5 was responsible for your reduced vampire loss? [montgom626]
Can you suggest anything else?? 70 miles lost in 14 days - under the old setup that would have been lost in two or three days!!
--�
Sep 18, 2013
punkchip In order to pay my landlord (because of the electricity I use from the building), I need to know with version 5.0, whats the khw / h (or per day) the car now uses while idle.
Anyone knows?
Thank you.�
Sep 18, 2013
wycolo @punkchip: Maybe get a used electric meter which would measure *all* kwh used by your car. Someone recently posted a link to a good source of meters.
--�
Sep 18, 2013
Lloyd My best guess that with 5.0 the loss is in the order of .5 Kwh per day in it's current form.�
Sep 18, 2013
4SUPER9 I am in the midst of experimenting with this now. I am away from my Tesla this week and intentionally left it unplugged. in 72 hours, I have lost exactly 3 miles of range. If this translates to 0.5 Kwh, I can't say. I'll leave that to others to calculate. Regardless, it is trivial as 5.0 currently operates.�
Sep 21, 2013
dennis 315 Days, 564 Posts and 1 MWh later...
I started this thread 315 days ago. Since that time I've lost over 1 megawatt hour due to the vampire loss in the Model S.
Version 5.0 with sleep improvements has been out for over 5 weeks in new vehicles but still hasn't been released to existing owners. I've been really impressed with Tesla's execution in most areas. But does anyone believe that Tesla is placing a high enough priority on this issue???�
Sep 22, 2013
ddruz IMO it should be the number one firmware priority. Perhaps it is but it is extremely difficult to integrate properly. It is puzzling why 5.0 has been out for a while but only on new cars.�
Sep 22, 2013
brianman Where do you get "over 2 months" from?
Model S software/firmware changelog - Tesla Motors Club - Enthusiasts & Owners Forum
�
Sep 22, 2013
scottf200 They are simply prioritizing owner experience (instance car response) over this efficiency. I can only imagine how much effort they have put into this. With so many cars out on the road they need to be more and more cautious about "major" changes. A bad change could cause a lot of bad PR. I applaud their efforts and cautious rollout.�
Sep 22, 2013
jerry33 Agreed. In addition, I would imagine most of us are going to keep our Model S for a number of years. The first three to nine months of ownership with vampire drain are going to fade away just like the months of waiting to get the Model S.�
Sep 22, 2013
dennis I actually looked it up, saw the August date, and "subtracted" wrong. My bad! Corrected to 5 weeks.�
Sep 22, 2013
hgalluzzi Man, I hope I get 5.0 soon.�
Sep 22, 2013
dsm363 Remember they did attempt to fix this before and rolled it back. I'd imagine they want to be sure this time it is done right. The vampire drain sucks but will be corrected at some point.�
Sep 22, 2013
brianman Ah, ok. I suspected you might have been talking about 5.5 or something.
I generally agree 4.5 is "getting a bit long in the tooth".�
Sep 22, 2013
apacheguy A cautious rollout is fine, but they should be able to load a seemingly stable firmware (.102) onto our cars by request. A request implies we understand the implications and that the mobile app will be slower. If the firmware was buggy or unstable that would be one thing, but that is not the case with the current iteration of 5.0. In that case, they wouldn't even be loading 5.0 on new deliveries.�
Sep 22, 2013
hans 1 megawatt hour is a lot of energy! We know from Elon's upcoming cross country trip that it takes 1 MWh to drive coast to coast across America.�
Sep 22, 2013
dennis Yes I've consumed 2.5 MWH driving and 1 MWH for the vampire losses.�
Sep 25, 2013
VolkerP Are you aware that you state the old scheme "Yo mama, gimme all the stuff good 'n bad, I'm a big boy and can handle it" ?
I remember when Tesla was pressed to make the information flow on car delivery status (Model S signatures) more transparent. Basically to answer "where is my car??!" promptly, honestly and under all circumstances, including "well there was that new guy with the fork lift in the service center where we prepped your car, uhm, ..." :crying:
There was a response (I think by G. Blankenship) stating that most people think they can deal with bad news, but in reality hope "it won't hit me but some other poor guy instead." In other words: if things turn out bad, virtually no one mutters "well - I asked for it" and plays it calmly.
Tesla appears to play along the line "bad things will happen. No need to exacerbate this by allowing customers to ask for trouble." And it served them well IMHO.�
Sep 25, 2013
jerry33 Yes, I don't deal well with bad news because usually it means working 20 to 24 hours for the next few days.
As for the vampire load, I get it back in the number of miles over rated range, so I don't worry about it. ("Number of miles over rated range" means starting with the miles remaining after a charge, and then compare that to the miles traveled since last charge plus the miles remaining. If it's higher, you got back some or all of the vampire losses.)�
Sep 25, 2013
apacheguy Yeah, that's nice, but you didn't read my post carefully enough. You make the assumption that there is a "bad" part to accepting the current iteration of the firmware. The fact is that there isn't and it is quite stable.
It's my view that if they have a stable firmware release they shouldn't sit on it until they work out issues like long wake up times. Obviously, many will beg to differ so that's why I would give people the option - you either want it or you don't, and only upon request. Lots of products allow you to try newer unreleased software; case in point Windows 8.1 preview. Now it's not totally comparable because one is a car and the other is a computer.�
Sep 25, 2013
4SUPER9 I hear you, though I don't necessarily agree. How would they role out an optional release? Not everyone frequents these forums. What if someone got an alert that there was a OTA software update and decided to download it, and became upset of the lag (BTW, my iPhone app took me close to 10 minutes today to connect to my car)? I guess the answer would be for the SC's to load it. My guess is that TM is not interested in tracking and managing this, nor willing to have SCs load software when they have other things to do. Either it is available to everyone, or not at all. There's simply too much else going on to bother. Further, the release is probably coming out soon enough anyway, that they figure it's no big deal to wait.
Finally, given TM's reputation, it is my belief that they are holding off for good enough reasons for which they are simply not saying. If it really is stable, or sufficient enough for a major release, I highly doubt that they would hold off. My 0.02�
Sep 26, 2013
david Thought I'd quantify the idle power drain with 5.0. The car was left unplugged for 5 weeks. I checked the charge (using the iphone app) less and less frequently to see if it would go into some deeper sleep eventually. Overall vampire loss was 6.2 miles per day. Also, I'd say at first look, checking the car using the app wakes up systems to add approximately one additional mile of loss per day. Something to consider if you leave the car unplugged at an airport for a long trip.
Days/Rated Miles/Loss per day
0 240
3.8 211 7.6
3.4 184 7.8
9 125 7.0
18 15 6.2�
Sep 26, 2013
brianman Thank you for sharing but 5 weeks? Please tell me you were on vacation rather than simply neglecting your racehorse.�
Sep 26, 2013
liuping Thanks for the numbers.
60 kwh per month still seems high for something that is supposed to be asleep.�
Sep 26, 2013
david Must be REM sleep - a cars gotta dream, right? I agree, though it is significantly better than 4.5. I was hoping after a week or so of no activity, it'd go from sleep to hibernate. Maybe that'll be a 5.1 upgrade.
brianman - it pained me also to leave it for so long, but business called. My luck it was only 5 weeks and I still had 15 rated miles to drive the 16 miles home from the airport garage...at a hyper-miling 40 mph, sweatin' bullets the whole way (literally, windows up, a/c off). Got home with 2 miles remaining. :scared:�
Sep 26, 2013
apacheguy That does seem a bit higher than what others have reported. Currently, 4.5 daily loss is about 8 miles IIRC and 5.0 is supposed to cut it in half to no more than 4 miles. Waking it up just once per day from the mobile app should not alter these numbers much.�
Sep 26, 2013
brianman Napkin calculations on vampire load
17,000 mi - ~4,000 mi to/thru California => 13,000 mi
10.5 months, approximately 320 days
320 - 10 days in California => 310 days
trip meter average of 383 Wh/mi
(13,000 mi * 383 Wh/mi) / 310 days = 16.061 kWh/day
Using Tesla's calculator...
Tesla Charging | Tesla Motors
with 300 miles shows 99.0 kWh to refill the 85 kWh battery.
So from-wall consumption becomes...
16.061 kWh/day * (99 / 85) = 18.706 kWh / day
My monthly chart fairly consistently shows 25 - 30 kWh/day more usage than last year.
Using the smaller number (25), we can come up with a rough guess for the vampire load overhead:
((25-18.706) / 18.706) = 33.6% vampire overhead
Or put another way...
((25-18.706) / 25) = 25.2% of my power consumption is from vampire load
Now these numbers are even more generous than described above because I've used public chargers, superchargers, etc. which don't count towards my home power consumption.
So, yes, vampire load is pretty significant through at least 4.5 firmware.�
Sep 27, 2013
polyphase Did you enable sleep mode?�
Sep 27, 2013
liuping Vampire losses are usually considered the amount of energy used by a device when it's just sitting unused or off.
I think your calculations are including charging overhead, which is somewhat unavoidable (and is much worse at 110V and/or lower Amps settings)
Your calculations are usefully for seeing the true cost per mile, etc. but not for gauging vampire loss improvements from software updates.�
Sep 28, 2013
brianman I think you missed this part:
�
Sep 28, 2013
Zythryn Monthly chart? Is this based off of the increase in use of your entire house?
Did you use more or less electricity than last year due to weather changes?
New TV, computer, etc.
Did you independently measure the charge loss of your system?
If the car needed to cool or heat the battery pack prior to charging, at any point in that time, that energy is not Vampire Drain, however it would add to the electricity drawn.
The first factor is a huge one though. Oh, and did your rate structure change while you have had the MS?�
Sep 28, 2013
brianman Rate structure isn't really relevant when you're talking about kWh consumption rather than $ cost.
No new computers or appliances in the last year. (My attention has been occupied by my vehicle.
Compared with last year's consumption. If anything, this year has been milder than last (or at least felt as such).�
Sep 29, 2013
david I was on 5.0 build 1.35.98 at the time. I don't recall being able to enable/disable sleep mode with that build. Also, others may have been seeing better results with 1.35.102.�
Oct 10, 2013
Owner I was away for a month and kept my Model S plugged in at 50% charge. Since I am on solar, I could accurately measure the vampire drain. In my case, it is 2.75kWh / day with 4.5. The car refreshes itself every other day. I did not include the house vampire drain, which runs less than .1kWh per 15 minutes as it was a bit noisy. So the number is probably more like 2.68kWh/day but it was not worth estimating that noise.
Gory details including energy charts:
Vampire Drain | Tesla Owner
I'm also estimating that to be about 2,700 miles of wasted energy per year.�
Oct 14, 2013
tezco My Leaf "wakes up" in a matter of seconds and uses almost no juice when parked. Hope Tesla can get this figured out soon since I'm sharing the J1772 with both cars. Hope to get a dedicated line in for the S soon, though. Still, can't park the S at the airport for more than a couple of days and still have enough juice left to get home.�
Oct 15, 2013
montgom626 Agreed.�
Nov 11, 2013
dennis A year and a day after I started this thread I can confirm that the issue is now resolved to my satisfaction. I received 5.6 last Thursday when my car was in for its annual service. When I parked the car yesterday evening it showed 143 miles rated range and now 20 hours later it shows 140. That loss of 3 miles compares to 10-12 miles loss per day pre 5.6 and is completely acceptable to me. Congratulations Tesla!�
Dec 2, 2013
yobigd20 you know, I was googling around for various Tesla stuff and I came across this report http://uniteconomics.com/files/Tesla_Motors_Is_the_Model_S_Green.pdf 'Is the Model S Green?' which was written back in April. I found that this report referenced me and my posts in this thread directly regarding vampire losses.
Well, just as a response to this, if I haven't already noted in a more recent post in this thread, I no longer exhibit those vampire loses since v5.8. There are a few miles loss I think, but certainly orders of magnitude less than before. Its small enough now that it really has no adverse effect. It's negligible. Problem solved. Good job Tesla.�
Dec 3, 2013
gregincal I got 5.8 and then away for a week. With my car plugged in the whole time I still show the car drawing 2-3kWh every night. I need to double check my sleep settings, but is it possible it doesn't go to sleep if you are plugged in with a charge timer set?�
Dec 3, 2013
AEdennis I've been on 5.8 for a few weeks and it definitely sleeps.�
Dec 4, 2013
mknox Here are my results on 5.8 with Sleep Mode working:
I am at a conference and charged my car to 90% at a nearby charging station, then moved it into the hotel's indoor parking lot at 9:50 PM last night. It was at 215 Rated Miles. It was not plugged in.
This evening at 11:00 PM, I woke the car from my hotel room with the VisibleTesla app. It is reporting 208 Rated miles and 88% SOC.
That is a loss of 7 miles over 25 hours.�
Dec 4, 2013
apacheguy A big part of it is determined by the ambient temp when the car awakens to top up the 12 V. I have been running a script to monitor sleep mode and range loss over the last several days. If the car awakens during the middle of the night when temps are sub-40, it must first heat and maintain the main battery before charging the 12V. This leads to considerable range loss.
If, on the other hand, the car wakes up during the middle of the day when the temp is considerablely warmer, the range loss is equally less considerable. Of course, in Canada where it remains cold 24/7 during the winter, you'll be hit by a significant range loss either way.
If Tesla could somehow make the car privy to weather conditions and factor that into the periodic "wake-up" interval then I'm confident that we would all observe much lower range losses.�
Dec 5, 2013
JRP3 Why would the car need to heat the main pack to charge the 12V? The heating load from the pack would be much larger than the charging load for the 12V. Plus considering the size of the 12V battery I'd imagine the DC/DC is cycling a number of times through the night to keep it topped off.�
Dec 5, 2013
apacheguy Any time the car draws power from the main battery the BMS kicks in and will regulate the temp. And yes, the fact that the heating load is so large is exactly my point.�
Dec 5, 2013
VolkerP Still it makes no sense to draw a huge load in order to prepare the battery for drawing a minuscule load.�
Dec 5, 2013
mknox Update:
8:00 AM went to car to drop off luggage: 206 miles
1:30 PM departed with 205 miles.
There were those times I "woke" the car to check on it and again to load my luggage, but total loss over 39.5 hours while parked and unplugged was 10 miles.
This was in an indoor garage where the temp would not have dropped below 60 F. I suppose that's not horrible and I only report it here as another data point.�
Dec 5, 2013
stopcrazypp That's simply the operational temperature target of the main battery. It's likely unaware of how long the pack would be used. I suspect the other sleep mode update that is promised probably will address this.
Also whether the car is plugged in might play a factor (plugged-in would explain a large load on plug to charge a smaller load that can't be charged via plug).�
Dec 5, 2013
JRP3 Seems as if it should be current sensitive at least, so the tiny draw of the DC/DC would not kick in the BMS, since it's a pointless waste.�
Dec 5, 2013
hans Previously I posted that I saw as much as a 6 miles of estimated range reduction in ~6 hours of "sleep" mode on my S60.
Yesterday I returned from an overnight business trip to find my unplugged car had "lost" only 8 rated miles of range in the 24 hours it was parked at the San Jose Airport.
It seems as though the car doesn't deep sleep for a quite a while, but once it does kick in, the vampire drain is greatly reduced.�
Dec 6, 2013
gg_got_a_tesla My experience has been 4-5 miles lost in 12-14 hours and 8 miles altogether in 24 hours with no wakeup calls from the mobile app and with the car not plugged in.�
Dec 6, 2013
dennis I am seeing 1-4 miles in 24 hours under the same circumstances (except 85kWh in my case).�
Dec 6, 2013
Kalud I posted in the 5.8 firmware thread, but on my side in somewhat heated garage 18C (64F) over a 14h period I loose absolutely nothing. I charge it initially and then I leave most of the time the car unplugged. I don't have anything that poke the car during that period (phone app or VisibleTesla). The car always goes into (deep) sleep. The car didn't sleep outside in the cold yet, I need to test it out.�
Dec 6, 2013
dennis One thing I just realized is that Tesla replaced my 12V battery last month. Is it possible that the differing behavior we are seeing is related to the abity of the 12V battery to maintain SOC?�
Dec 9, 2013
yobigd20 according to this article and Elon's tweet, yes it's faulty 12V batteries that cause the vampire loss as the main battery keeps needing to wake up to recharge it. http://www.businessinsider.com/finally--my-tesla-is-fixed-2013-12�
Dec 9, 2013
apacheguy For those of you with the newer 12V - how often does it wake up to maintain the charge level? Mine wakes up every 12 hours or so and I have the original 12V.�
Dec 12, 2013
Todd Burch Left my car (almost 19K mi) at the airport for several days for the first time, so I now have some vampire drain info to report. I parked on Monday at noon with 129 mi rated. Got back to my car on Thursday night at 9 pm with 110 mi rated. Did not check the car with the app that entire time.
So that's about 5.6 miles of loss per day. Car was sitting at temps between about 25-38�F (not that it matters, as the pack doesn't actively heat itself in these temp ranges).
On the drive home, range indications seemed pretty consistent. I did not see miles magically reappear, nor did I see miles tick off any slower than usual. The range indication seems pretty consistent, even with a cold pack.�
Dec 12, 2013
apacheguy It does heat the pack in that temp range. I have been collecting telemetry data on sleep mode and can tell you there is a HUGE difference between a night in the 50s and a night in the 30s. The range drops fast when the car wakes up at night to maintain the 12V in temps < 40.�
Dec 13, 2013
Todd Burch Interesting that your data shows that. Goes against the Tesla support person I trusted most! Ugh, why is this car such an enigma?!?
Although why would they heat the pack just to recharge the 12V?!? It's not like it's drawing much power! Seems like a power draw they can eliminate in a future update. No need to heat the pack in that temp range!�
Jan 2, 2014
hans I have been watching the vampire drain my battery for several days while I am away from home.
Definite pattern of ~9 hours of sleep followed by ~3 hours awake on a very regular basis over the past several days. I still need to find out what the car thinks its doing during the extended waking periods. My guess is it is trickle charging the 12V battery but I'm not sure how to prove that.�
Jan 2, 2014
WarpedOne Mount a voltage logger over 12V battery terminals. Its voltage will go above 14V while charging.�
Jan 2, 2014
hans Would a simpler voltage display that plugs into the "cigarette lighter" tell me the same thing?�
Jan 2, 2014
woof Hmm, sounds very similar to REM sleep. Perhaps the Model S is dreaming of electric sheep?�
Jan 3, 2014
jerry33 It would if you stay by it and take a reading every so often. There's no recording function on those.�
Jan 4, 2014
tezco But you could probably wire a data logger to a plug and get info without having to crack the frunk.�
Feb 11, 2014
kishdude 27 days power drain video
This is an old thread, but I wanted to post this video I found of someone who left his Model S at the airport for 27 days in what seems to be a very cold environment to test the vampire drain.
Tesla Model S vampire drain after 27 days in winter - YouTube
Basically, he only lost 20% of the charge in 27 days. Pretty good especially in the cold environment.�
Feb 13, 2014
Iz I have a 60 kWh and still have vampire losses.
Have 3 major drawbacks:
-Vampire drain
-Cold weather
-Charging on 110�
Feb 13, 2014
gg_got_a_tesla Yes, even with v5.8.7, my 60's vampire drain hasn't gotten much better. Still losing 7-8 miles at night when not plugged in at all. Temps are in the low 50s in my insulated garage.
I've not had the 12V battery (from January 2013) replaced though in case that's the culprit. Tesla hasn't contacted me about replacing it nor did the service center flag it during a recent visit.�
Feb 13, 2014
apacheguy That's unfortunate. Thought TM had sorted out the issue with the S60s. It appears they have made sleep mode more aggressive with the various iterations of 5.8 in terms of the sleep timer. Mine usually enters sleep immediately upon charge completion and doesn't take too long if I walk away from it during the day. I lose < 2 miles per 12 hours. Not sure what the issue is with the 60s.
@gg - Do you have the original gray 12 V? I don't remember when they switched over to the red one.�
Feb 13, 2014
hans I think GG picked up his S60 at the same time I got mine last January. I just got my car back from it's annual service with a note that says "Replace Excite 12V Battery with C&D". It's only been one night so I can't tell for sure if my vampire drain is lower but I did notice that the car stayed in sleep more for 11 hours straight which is something it never did before. I will monitor the overnight drain for a few days and report back if there is any improvement from the 12V replacement. It will still be hard to say because they also upgraded my firmware to 5.8.7 at the same time.
The service agent told me it's normal to see a drain of between 0.5 - 1.0 miles per hour, even when in sleep mode. I find that guidance to be pretty much useless.�
Feb 13, 2014
Iz My vehicle was also produced in January 2013. Took delivery in March. Vampire losses are more apparent while at work and even more so when I have to take short hops to another location and back.
�
Feb 13, 2014
gg_got_a_tesla Thanks, hans et al. I haven't looked at what battery I have yet but, fwiw, sent this to service at teslamotors.com just now:
�
Feb 14, 2014
gg_got_a_tesla Got an email reply from service at corp and then a call from the Burlingame service center. They pulled logs from the car and are fairly certain that it's indeed the 12V battery. Got an appointment next week to get it replaced.
Have to say, Tesla service has really stepped up to another level of late. Now, it's just a matter of having enough loaners.�
Feb 18, 2014
Jeff Miller I just had my car in for it's annual service last week and I specifically asked them if the 12V battery needed to be replaced. They told me that it didn't, but then they just called me this morning and said it did in fact have to be replaced. I asked them why they had just told me otherwise a week ago and they said my car had just contacted them telling them the battery needed to be replaced. Presumably this is one of the things they monitor in our cars? Kind of weird.
I agree though about the service. They gave me a ride to work with Uber while they worked on the car and then dropped it off at my work when they were done. Also, the manager sent me an email (no doubt an automated form letter, but still) asking how everything went. All very convenient.
I've been keeping track of my actual kwh used vs what the car says I use. I haven't looked carefully to see if there is a difference in drain between 5.8 and
earlier versions but hope to do so soon.�
Feb 19, 2014
mknox Last summer, I was away for two weeks and left my car plugged in and the charge timer set for 10:00 PM. At that time, the car "topped up" to the tune of 5 kWh every other day, and the charging cycle always began exactly at 10:00 PM. This means my car was consuming 2.5 kWh / day (vampire drain).
A couple of weeks ago, I was away for 15 days and did the exact same thing. This time, my car would "top up" much more randomly. Sometimes every day, sometimes it might skip two days. While the charging always started after 10:00 PM, it was often much later than that (it did stay in my Off-Peak period, so that was good). If I add up all the consumption while I was away and divide by the number of days, it works out to 3.1 kWh / day -- MORE than before!
I have my car set to "sleep" (and it does) and I have a dedicated meter on my EV charging circuit.�
Feb 19, 2014
apacheguy @mknox - Just curious as to what your rated mile loss per day is? Mine ranges between 3-5 rated miles/24 hours. I'm not exactly sure what that corresponds to in kWh/day, but my guess is between 0.9-1.5 kWh which is significantly lower than what you are seeing. I suppose if you take into account charging efficiency my numbers could go as high as 1.8 kWh or so.�
Feb 19, 2014
JRP3 Wouldn't "sleep" only apply to an unplugged vehicle?�
Feb 19, 2014
tezco I'm thinking mine sleeps while plugged in based on the amount of time it takes the dash and console to awaken when I open the door. The i-app also normally says that it is "Waking the car" most of the time it tries to connect. Just tried and it took over a minute and a half to wake up and another 15 sec to finish connecting. I'm losing less than 1 rated mile per day following a 12V replacement last Nov, so the S can now go several days before topping off.�
Feb 19, 2014
qwk Mine sleeps while plugged in IF the car is locked and charging, or if left unlocked finishes the charge, goes dark and into sleep mode.�
Feb 19, 2014
mknox My car is rarely ever parked more than just overnight, and when I'm away, I can't really keep track of the rated miles dropping (well, I suppose I could use VisibleTesla on a laptop) and just rely on my energy monitor logs when I get home. I'm really more concerned about the actual electricity out of the wall since that's what I'm paying for.
I have on occasion noted that if my overnight charge finishes by, say, 2:00 AM vs. 7:00 AM I will see a 2 or 3 mile difference when I get into the car.�
Feb 19, 2014
apacheguy That's fantastic. I wonder why there is so much variability in sleep mode. I have a Sig just like you and lose significantly more than that in 24 hours. Service replaced my 12 V last month.�
Feb 19, 2014
tezco I'll check my data logger this evening to see what I'm actually using from the wall since I have some historical data to compare it to.�
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