Dec 21, 2013
gimp_dad Similar experience here. 16.5 months since I took delivery. Just over 18k miles. Just did a max charge and set it to ideal readout to remove as many variables as possible. It charged to 292. 8 miles lost in almost 1.5 years. I can live with that. I don't baby it at all but I don't max charge very often. I did none of the "balancing" techniques people are doing.
�
Dec 21, 2013
gimp_dad I should also add that I have been using my HPWC for a year now (received mine 12/20/12). In the early days I always charged at 80A and always charged every time I entered the garage. I always charged to 93% (when that was the "standard" charge). When they reduced the default to 60A for a while I charged at that rate and went back up to 80A as soon as I could. Now I always charge to 90% as a default and still use 80A.
My theory is that within the greater bay area I want to be able to drive this car as if it were an ICE. That means keeping it ready to go at the drop of a hat. I am not a detailed life planner. A car is designed to get me where I want to go when I want to go there. My MS has done that much better than I expected it to back when I got it.�
Dec 22, 2013
altman Bit worried. Did my first range charge in many months and I'm at 238 rated miles.
- Sig P85, delivered 11/28/12
- Palo Alto, so perfect Tesla climate
- 9250 miles
- maybe 10-12 supercharges ever, ran down to 1 rated mile once (never below, generally never below 50 miles)
- only charging to 60-70% daily since that became an option, using 14-50 and the supplied mobile charger
- a handful of charges at 110/15A and from J1772s but not many
10% decrease in capacity in such a short time stings rather a lot. Seems like I have an outlier on the low side, but that's a lot less confidence for the long trips over the holidays
�
Dec 22, 2013
islandbayy 17,500 miles in 6 Months, 3 weeks, 1 day.
60kW battery Pack.
Supercharged from 43 miles up to a full 100% range charge during the new Highland Park Grand Opening.
Ended up with 203 Miles. The Supercharger and Car balance the pack for about 20 minutes.
Pack was nice and warm upon arrival, outside temps were 33 degrees.
Original Delivery Range was 209 miles. Current Firmware is 5.8, so I do not know how much of a difference that would have made compared to delivery firmware (4.1?)�
Dec 22, 2013
SFOTurtle I thought you had your pack replaced?�
Dec 23, 2013
captain_zap This does seem like an outlier. I would have Tesla check it out. Maybe they can diagnose remotely. Could be a balancing or capacity calibration problem. I've recovered up to 8 miles of rated range after doing many shallow cycles then a deep cycle.�
Dec 23, 2013
Denarius @altman
I appeared to lose a bunch of range also keeping my charge state low, I believe they pack never has an opportunity to balance if you always charge to 60-70% as you stated. I would do a couple of full discharge/charge cycles and see what impact that has on range.�
Dec 23, 2013
islandbayy No, not me. Wouldn't mind getting it replaced for a 85 though...�
Dec 23, 2013
altman Going to be driving to LA in the next few days, so will be cycling it/supercharging/etc - will report back if it's helped at all.
Have emailed ownership asking them to log in and take a look, too.�
Dec 25, 2013
bluetinc With the new information coming out about two types of 85 kWh battery packs, I think it would be helpful if those giving data points could note if they have the old style (90kW charge limited, or the new style 120kW charge limited). In my cursory look at the data, it seems though the old style and the new type packs have different degradation characteristics which would help to explain much of the divergence in numbers many of us have seen.
I have seen my pack balance at 50%, but I too see that full charges after long periods at medium charge states seem more out of balance, i.e. I have seen gains of almost 10 miles after a couple of full charges. I am not able to see the individual cell groups to see if they are more out of balance the first time they charge up to 100% following a period of medium charge, but I think it is much more likely to me an issue of the BMS capacity algorithm having a greater error at medium charges than full, and we see that working itself out.
Peter�
Dec 25, 2013
mknox A full standard charge (90%) gives me about 215 miles. I have about 18,000 miles on the car. When it was new, a full charge standard would give me 245 miles, but I think the algorithms were different and I've read a full charge back then was something like 93%. I really don't know if this is all degradation or some combination of that and changes in the way Tesla displays the information. The only way to know for sure would be to charge the car fully and drive until it stops, which I don't intend on doing!�
Dec 25, 2013
jerry33 Correct. Everything else is just an estimate, and before doing a full range charge to full discharge, you would need to ensure that the pack is balanced or the reading would still be low.�
Dec 29, 2013
wraithnot I just got back from a 2,360 mile road trip that involved 5 range charges. The thing that I found most surprising was that my range INCREASED by 4 miles over the course of the trip. I know I shouldn't have been too surprised by this based on things yobigd20 and others have posted, but after seeing the max range steadily decrease over time it's still a very nice surprise to see things go the other way.
I had software version 1.49.30 (5.8) on the trip and started the trip with 19,897 miles. My first range charge in my garage was 259 miles. I did a range charge at Tejon Ranch after arriving with 16 rated miles and it settled at 261 miles. The next day I did some more deep charges and discharges (plus smaller charges at Chiriaco Summit CA and Picacho Peak AZ) to make it to the Westin La Paloma in Tucson. An overnight range charge using the 14-50 at the La Paloma got me all the way up to 263 miles! That's only 0.75% degradation from the 265 mile spec after 20,000 miles!
A range charge at my parent's place in Las Cruces on yielded 260 miles, but the fact that it was about 20 F outside might have had something to do with this because I was back at 263 miles when I range charged at the La Paloma on the return trip.
Anyway, my observations support the idea that if you want an accurate measurement of your battery capacity, you really need to do some deep charges and discharges first. I've done a bunch of road trips and at least 30 supercharger stops since I got the car in March and this doesn't seem to have hurt the battery at all since I'm still at 263 miles. The only thing I'm actively doing to preserve the battery is timing regular 90% daily charges and range charges to complete shortly before I need to drive the car so the battery doesn't sit around at a high state of charge.�
Dec 29, 2013
gg_got_a_tesla @wraithnot, there's something to be said for what you observed. I just came back from a 1,300 mile roadtrip with 9 supercharges including a couple of really-shallow-to-really-deep ones. One of the supercharges showed only 168 miles on my S60 at 90%.
At my destination, I charged from maybe, 10% to 90% over a long period at 5A from a J1772 30A station. After getting back home, I charged at 12A overnight and ended up at 176 miles at 90%. This is after only seeing 171-172 miles recently before the trip.�
Dec 29, 2013
Kipernicus I did a roadtrip as well. 2 range charges 2 days in a row got me to 192 both times (8% degradation), but it did balance for quite a while (almost an hour I think) the second time. While at my parents I charged on 110 for a while and my 90% got up to 173 (was 167 before) but haven't done a 100% since those first 2 times.�
Dec 31, 2013
altman Did maybe 800 miles since the last post, 2 home range charges (one before leaving, which showed 237 miles, and one on return to check capacity which showed 241 miles) plus running down to below 20 miles a couple of times then supercharging to full (one showed 242 miles).
So, it's improved by 4 miles, but I'm still missing 20+ of them
The other thing is that the charge rate at a supercharger dropped off much quicker than I remember it doing. By 150 miles it was down to 60-70kW usually (never goes above 90 as I have an old 85). The range charge from ~15 miles to "full" took 2 hours, most of which when I was the only car at the station. Kids and spouse get a bit restless after 2 hours!�
Dec 31, 2013
SFOTurtle How do you know for sure that the pack is balancing? I'm assuming you're seeing the charging light stay green after charging stops, but what evidence do we have that in fact the pack is balancing then?�
Dec 31, 2013
qwk If you look on the volt/amp meter located on the dash, the amps will flicker between 0/1. When it's done, it usually goes dark(car unlocked).�
Dec 31, 2013
bluetinc The displays in the car (at least use to) would show the charge complete, and then after some time (5-30 min), the charging would start again with the current raping up to sometimes 30-40A, and then back down over a good period of time (30 min to 1:30 min). I've seen this at multiple charge to points, but I haven't watched for it in a while as the weather turning colder doesn't keep me outside as much
Peter
�
Dec 31, 2013
SFOTurtle Interesting. I've never observed that in my car, although I also haven't sat in the car and followed the displays for that period of time following the completion of any charging.�
Dec 31, 2013
jerry33 Because the last minute of range charge can last an hour, I've always thought that was when it was balancing the pack.�
Jan 1, 2014
Doug_G After a year and 21,000 km, I get a 90% standard charge at 350 km Rated, and a full 100% charge at 401 km Rated. (219 miles and 251 miles respectively.)
When the car was brand new I got 428 km Rated on a 100% charge. (268 miles.)
We know that the method of calculating the range has changed, so we can't say for sure that I've had a 6% decline. Also this chemistry reportedly has an early drop that levels out.
In comparison, my Roadster is down about 8% after 3.5 years and 35,000 km (22,000 miles). Different battery chemistry, of course.�
Jan 1, 2014
yobigd20 That is great to hear that too from others seeing their range "increase".
I do think there are a few varying factors to the "increase". One of course is "balancing". But the other is doing a full 100% depth of discharge cycle. This is nothing new, and I've stated it elsewhere as have many others, but just to reiterate here again after reading a few more things about Li-Ion battery chemistry. Basically, we should all know by now that doing the shallowest discharge/charge cycles is the best for the long-time health of out battery (aside from the obvious don't charge to 100% and leave it there especially in hot weather as well as the don't discharge to 0% of leave it there for weeks/months).
But lets say your daily charging routing is the following: charge to 70%, drive to work and have 55% remaining, charge back up to 70%, go home arriving at @55%, and charge back up to 70%. In this pattern, you're only doing two 15% depth if discharges daily. This is very good for the health of the battery. However, with Li-Ion battery chemistry, there is no cut-and-dry method of knowing what the exact charge state is. It's not like a gas tank where you can peer in and see how "full" it really is at 70%. I am omitting all the electrical details from here regarding voltages, temperatures, etc (because I admit I don't fully understand it all myself either). Basically there are methods of testing that will get you close, but it's not exact. The software can only do the best it can at "estimating" the state and range when you charge to 70%. Over time, this just gets a bit out of sync and the result of this is showing a "lower range" on our displays when that's not actually representative of the true charge state of the battery (also, this is applied to all cells, but I am described it as one big single cell). The only known reliable way of "resetting" this to be more accurate is to fully deplete the battery to 0%, and charging all the way to 100% again (which is NOT recommended to do daily, as described before the best daily pattern for long term heath of the battery is to minimize the depths of discharge). This accuracy is also assuming that the pack is fully balanced (which it won't be so this also isn't going to be 100% accurate to the battery degradation state either, but that is not what I'm trying to describe here).
So based on this knowledge, this is why it's not surprising to me to see someone get results like this - aka going on a road trip and doing several huge depths of discharge cycles and thus seeing their range increase at the end. IMO this is "expected" behavior, and I'm glad to see that it's working!�
Jan 4, 2014
apacheguy I'm a newcomer to this thread. Just thought I'd add my data point. Shortly after arriving home from a road trip in which my battery was deep cycled several times I did a range charge to 244 miles. I have an A battery pack with 22K miles.
Can we add a couple columns to the Battery Table wiki to log degradation? I'm very curious as to the A, B battery pack comparison as there are indications that B packs degrade more slowly in addition to supporting 120 kW SC.�
Jan 6, 2014
Kraken doubt this as I've seen degradation and I get 120.�
Jan 6, 2014
donauker From my experience it would appear that the range calculation on a full range charge had not really changed as of version 4.5 firmware. I had my battery pack replaced at around 23,000 miles and saw my 100% charge range return to 266 miles from the 250 I was getting on my old pack.�
Jan 6, 2014
aaron0k As a (limited) 40k owner, thought I'd add my stats. Received in June'13; consistently max charged to 140m daily. Updates in November appeared to reduce this to 128m daily.�
Jan 6, 2014
apacheguy How many miles do you get on a range charge and how many miles on the odo? Someone with a B pack was getting > 255 rated miles with 33 K. Seems far better than my 244 rated miles at 22 K.
The range calc changed in 5.x so it makes sense that you wouldn't have noticed the difference on 4.5.�
Jan 6, 2014
qwk There was a change in 4.5(.61).
- - - Updated - - -
It's no secret that cars have different "rated mile" energy units(mine is 300), but has anybody that had their pack replaced for whatever reason noted the before and after "rated mile" number to see if it changed with the battery swap? I have a feeling that this number might be different depending on what the pack tolerances are.�
Jan 6, 2014
dennis I also have an A pack, and range charge now is 247 miles with 9500 miles on the odometer. Less than 10 range charges, less than 5 deep discharges, typical charge is <40%->80%.�
Jan 6, 2014
Kraken last I checked (at around 8000 miles) I was getting about 250.�
Jan 6, 2014
xray While on 5.8, I had a main pack failure in late November. The night before the failure, I had done a range charge which stopped at about 248 miles (~18000 miles) and on the day after the main battery pack was replaced as well as on subsequent range charges, I have seen 266-269 rated mile range. When I first took delivery of the car, my range charge was to about 267 miles (on older versions of the software).
So I saw my range charge decrease from 267 to 248 over the course of the first 18000 miles and then back up to 266-269 immediately after replacement with a new battery pack.�
Jan 6, 2014
ecarfan I have only had my S85 a bit more than two weeks and have less than 1K miles on the odometer. I have never charged it to more than the 95% level (as indicated by the charging bar shown in my iPhone app) and that got me to 254 miles, so extrapolating I assume a 100% charge would be about 267. I routinely charge to 90% and get around 230 miles.�
Jan 6, 2014
qwk That could very well have been a case of an out of balance pack, especially if you don't charge to at least 90% every couple of days.
I was talking about the "rated mile energy unit" that rated miles are based off of, which is different for most cars. The "rated mile energy unit" line is displayed in the energy graph as a solid rated mile line.�
Jan 6, 2014
AmpedUP @xray...do you have any thoughts as to why the pack failed? Any unusual charging habits, etc?�
Jan 6, 2014
apacheguy Can you explain what you mean by pack imbalance? IIRC, Model S initiates a pack balancing program upon charge completion regardless of SOC. What does 90% have to do with it?
I understand the fundamental concept of pack balancing, but I just don't understand what it is about 90% in particular.�
Jan 6, 2014
qwk How do you know this? I can only speak from my experience, but my pack gets out of balance when the slider is below 90%.�
Jan 6, 2014
efusco How do you know it's out of balance? What data are you using to validate that?�
Jan 6, 2014
apacheguy All I could find was this, but it applies to the Roadster:
FW 4.5 got rid of standard mode, but I guess that could be where you are coming from. In my mind, it shouldn't matter whether it's set to 50% or 90%, the BMS should still balance the pack after a charge session has completed. Plus, there is no indication from Tesla to charge up to a certain percentage. They merely say to charge up to whatever you need, while minimizing range charges.�
Jan 6, 2014
xray oh. I see. I just checked and the "rated mile energy unit" is 300 on the car now. It was definitely 308 before the battery failure while on previous OS versions, however, I don't remember looking at this unit in the days after it was upgraded to 5.8 but before the main battery pack failure. I'm going to claim ignorance but did this unit not change with the upgrade to 5.8 for all cars?
It's entirely possible that the pack was not balanced. I certainly didn't do anything special to try to balance it like deep discharges, etc.
- - - Updated - - -
I wish I knew what triggered the failure.
The failure occurred suddenly while accelerating on streets. There was a loud boom and then the car warned me that it was shutting down and so I consequently pulled over into a parking lot. I originally thought it was a motor failure but this was quickly dispelled by the service advisor providing roadside assistance. He said that the system had flagged the main battery.
The car was towed to Costa Mesa service center and the main battery pack was replaced shortly thereafter.
As far as charging habits are concerned, I have never drained the battery pack into single digits. The lowest I ever went with that battery pack was 14 rated miles. I tend to charge irregularly, whenever needed, so there are some nights when I don't charge but some nights when the car is charged nightly. I also try to keep the average charge as low as possible based on what I've learned here in the forums. So bottomline, I don't think I'm different then an average owner.
I inquired a couple of times after as to what the exact cause of failure was and was told that the battery with be analyzed back at Fremont and that the incident was rare. I don't have any reason to doubt both statements but neither provides a clear answer.�
Jan 6, 2014
qwk Range mode charges don't reach 265+, and 90% charges don't reach my usual 232-234 rated miles.�
Jan 7, 2014
mknox I did my first Range Charge that went to completion last night. The last two tries (months ago) resulted in the charge rate slowing down and I had to unplug and leave before it finished. I got 242 Rated Miles and the car has just a bit over 18,000 miles on it. Last summer, when it got to about 99%, I ended up with 260 miles.�
Jan 7, 2014
apacheguy Last summer as in 2013? 18 miles lost in 6 months seems excessive, no?�
Jan 7, 2014
SFOTurtle What was ambient temperature when you were charging?�
Jan 7, 2014
mknox Well, I just posted as another data point. Yes, summer of 2013, but I don't know if it's excessive because I was on different firmware versions. For all I know the calculations that Tesla uses have changed.
- - - Updated - - -
Big differences. Last summer it was probably in the mid 70's and last night it was probably close to 0 F in my garage. Having said that, I haven't really noticed any difference in the Rated Miles I get after charging when it's cold vs. hot.�
Jan 7, 2014
William13 Please, the battery graphs from Panasonic clearly indicate that this type of Lithium Ion battery loses more capacity during the first cycles and less with later cycles. I also have anxiety attacks about the battery life, but calm myself by looking at the Panasonic battery PDF. Chronological time is NOT covered on these graph, just temperature and up to 500 cycles of charge/discharge. Chronological age is my concern as we are doing most of this Beta test. Tesla could only be about two or three years ahead of Signature cars. I also expect that my cells are six months older than the rest of my car.�
Jan 11, 2014
YoteDown Just completed my first range charge at 1773 miles. VisableTesla is reporting 267.8 miles rated and 303.9 ideal. I have been getting 235 rated miles on a 90% charge since we picked it up.
�
Jan 11, 2014
SFOTurtle Range/100% charged yesterday ahead of a lot of driving this weekend. Ambient temps during most of the charging were in the mid-60s here. I let the charge fully complete. My 60 showed 193 rated miles when it stopped charging and the number stayed the same for 30 minutes after while keeping it plugged in. I have just over 12,500 miles. When I started driving, the rated miles dropped after driving about a mile or so.�
Jan 11, 2014
islandbayy 19,100 miles, 100% range charge yielded 204 miles on my 60.
I did this while it was nice and warm indoors at the service center. Charged at 40 amp.
They said I have some of the best battery wear they have ever seen�
Jan 11, 2014
Doug_G The final Rated Range of a range mode charge will likely depend on the charge current used. I noticed with my Roadster that it definitely got higher range when charging at lower current; in fact it was significantly higher on the one occasion I did a range mode charge on 110V (a two day hotel stay is enough to fully charge a Roadster on 110V).
My car will normally get to 401 km on a 40A charger. But on my recent road trip I noticed that the car only charged to 396 km, and that was at higher current - once on a CS-60 (48A) and once on a CS-90 (70A). Another possible factor is that I usually charge in my garage, which rarely goes much below freezing, but this was outdoor charging at -17C.�
Jan 11, 2014
ModelS4Taos It seems like folks that don't baby their battery (eg. are forced to charge to frequently to 100% and get to zero or close to it) appear to have better range. I think batteries that are babied have unbalanced packs and so much of the range is hidden but not lost. It would be interesting to see a model S owner who previously babied their car (20% to 80% soc), suddenly had to change their habits (0% to 100% soc) because of a job change or lots of trips and see what their range is in a couple of months.�
Jan 12, 2014
100thMonkey There is a big difference though between losing range from imbalanced cells, which is temporary vs the kind of loss that typically comes from frequent full charging and deep cycling batteries, which is permanent. doing shallow mid pack cycling should, over the long haul, help retain range, though to see the extent of that preserved range, a cycle or two of deeper discharges and full charges would likely be necessary.�
Jan 12, 2014
William13 I was asked to post the old data from Panasonic that may represent our battery's cell aging behavior.�
Jan 16, 2014
yobigd20 This patent issued to Tesla the other day might help shed some light on the topic.
Full details: http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.%20html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=8629657&OS=8629657&RS=8629657
Summary:
I haven't read it in detail myself (click the link for the full patent, above is just the summary). I'll read it later tonight. Could be useful info in there. Could also be just a bunch of unrelated gibberish.
Also FWIW, for the hell of it (since I haven't done it in months), I ranged charged last night and timed it to complete right before I left for work this morning. (so it's wasn't sitting at max range). I am at 35.7k miles now on whatever the latest v5.8 is, and my max range is 254 miles. Not bad. I still think that's mostly just cell-imbalance and not any real degredation.�
Jan 16, 2014
smartypnz Near 19,000 miles, last range charge 255 - same for awhile.
Using 5.8.4
'A' battery - delivered end of April.
Typically charge to 60-80% - Range about once a week.
Commute 135 miles - but once a week 280.�
Jan 16, 2014
DriverOne What is battery pack balancing, anyway? What does it mean to be unbalanced?�
Jan 16, 2014
Doug_G Here's an oversimplified explanation.
The pack consists of a whole bunch of series-connected strings of batteries, which are in turn connected in parallel to deliver power to the car.
The cells aren't all perfectly identical. Over time, one of those strings will end up having a lower voltage than all the other ones. One will end up having a higher voltage than the rest of them.
You want to keep every cell in the pack within a certain voltage range. When you get to the top of that range you have to stop charging. Since one string hits the top first, every other string will be a little bit undercharged.
Similarly the low string will limit how much you can discharge the pack. Every other string will have some energy left, but you won't be able to use it without draining the "weak" string too much.
If the strings were all in perfect balance, then you'd be able to drive the maximum possible distance on a charge.
Balancing equalizes the strings. The simple way is to just bleed a little bit of power off the high strings. Tesla doesn't say exactly how they do it, of course.�
Jan 16, 2014
brianman Elves. This is why it's easier to balance the pack in months other than December: elves have more time for a second job.�
Jan 17, 2014
Mario Kadastik Can some EU car owners report their numbers. I range charged last weekend and got the numbers. Now as EU has a different notation we have Rated and Typical (which loosely correlate with Ideal and Rated in US). The range I got according to VisibleTesla is:
492.5 rated km394 typical km
Now this does translate to 303 miles, but I don't think the two are quite comparable. I've seen in the Tesla video of winter driving of the Norwegian guy that his car said 491km and looked to be fully charged (I think they charged to max to make it look good in the video). However Rafael de Mestre mentioned that he got 502 when he got the car. Then again he's a signature owner so probably one of the earliest deliveries (he's already got 18k km on it) and might have been a software version thing again. So would love to hear from others. I think I got the car standing on 492.5km for a long time before I recorded it (10-20 minutes for sure) but it wasn't officially charging completed I think before I had to leave in the morning. Then again I doubt the difference would have been more than 0.5-1.5km. The car had 2200km on it at the time I took those numbers.�
Jan 17, 2014
TylerCA Our MS now has 5000 miles and our most recent charge netted 233 whereas when the vehicle was first delivered to us, it was at 235. Is this normal? We have not yet upgraded to v5.8�
Jan 17, 2014
Zextraterrestrial assuming 90%?
seems right, temps might be colder too, this alone might make it show a lower #�
Jan 17, 2014
sfriedrich Sig P85 here. 19kmiles.
Range charge is down to 242 rated range, normal daily charge is down to 209 rated range. On an HPWC, full 80 amps, charge at 11PM. (Edit: oh, and garaged too)
A bit disappointing, but after a year, I still love this car!�
Jan 17, 2014
cinergi Ouch!
I'm aware of one other person in that same boat.�
Jan 17, 2014
FredTMC yep. 204 is great. I get 199mi currently on my 60. I have 21k mi.�
Jan 17, 2014
jyc P85 with nearly 15k miles. Last range charge at about 14k miles on 5.8.4 ended up at 242. Standard charge at 222. with only 2 other range charges ever, and mostly a garage in the 50-80 degree F range charging using the 14-50. On the other hand, this pack was also roasted for 4 days in Vegas when it was 110+ outdoors and who knows what temperature inside the garage. Otherwise it's a mildly babied pack that usually lives in the 40-70% SOC range on most days.
Asked the service center to check it out; logs were pulled and the answer I got was that it's just a change in algorithm rather than accelerated battery degradation. The Calculated Amphor Capacity is apparently the same. Guess we'll see what happens long term! Just wish we knew what these algorithm changes were exactly.�
Jan 17, 2014
bluetinc Out of curiosity, which battery (A or B) do you have?
Not to get too pissy about this, but without a bunch of specifics from the Service Center about what they are talking about I'm calling BS on a "change in algorithm" as a general excuse for why we are seeing full range charges in the 240s. If you walk them over to any new loaner car with only a few miles on it, and the same exact software version, they all show in the 265-270 range.
Peter
PS. If they want to talk specifically why a range charge now charges 2-3 miles off of where it did the day before an update, that's something different.
PPS. I'm in the high 240s, also... I'm curious if anyone with a "B" battery is in the 240s...
�
Jan 17, 2014
aviators99 I'm pretty close to this too (am I the one other person?). I've really been wondering if the HPWC is a factor, but don't have enough data. Also, I'm in the process of replacing the HPWC because it gets hot to the point where I can't touch it, and I'd like to figure out if this could have any adverse impact on the battery. Not sure whom to ask. Mine started degrading rapidly around the same time I got the HPWC and the HPWC has been this hot since I got it (but I didn't know it wasn't normal -- never dealt with ultra-high voltages before)�
Jan 17, 2014
Zextraterrestrial I don't think I'll get over 250 max..my 90% is 211 rated. maybe unbalanced, can't really say though
find out next weekend�
Jan 17, 2014
Ben W My Sig P85 now has 16k miles on it, and a standard charge now usually yields about 216mi, Range about 242mi. This is significantly down from its peak (one of my first Range charges showed 273mi), but I still love the car!�
Jan 17, 2014
tdiggity Is your daily charge at ~90%? Just trying to see if you would benefit from multiple 100% charges to rebalance your pack.�
Jan 17, 2014
cinergi Nope -- someone else who's chosen not to post it here. Not sure of his charging arrangement but I've been using HPWC for the last 7 months (of my 14 months of ownership) and I'm 219 @ 90%.�
Jan 17, 2014
Zextraterrestrial I think this may be true for all of the first 'A' packs. I haven't range charged in quite a while and have been charging to 50% or 60% recently and before I was going to 80 or 90%. kind of trying to see if keeping in the middle does unbalance it or show less rated quicker but I will need to range charge on Friday and then the next weekend too. Maybe service can check the #'s for me when I am getting a new windshield
have you done many recent 'full' charges?�
Jan 17, 2014
Fedderman I have under 10k miles. My last range charge ~3 weeks ago yielded 244 rated miles. When new, I routinely got 265. I use 14-50 at home, never used a HPWC. Have used SC's about 25 times.�
Jan 17, 2014
simplesolar Strange thing happened the other day. My range has been fluctuating from 225-229 and the other day out of no where it went back to 232. Now it is at 227. The past week temperature has been in the 60's and this week in the 80's. Maybe that helps?
PS this is at 16,800 miles 6 month ownership.�
Jan 17, 2014
aviators99 Just to confirm, you're checking the rated miles at the instant the charge is complete? I actually monitor it automatically using the API so I can be sure I use data from within 60 seconds of completion.�
Jan 17, 2014
Fedderman This was within 1 hour of charge complete.�
Jan 17, 2014
apacheguy Exactly. I'm skeptical of the whole range algorithm change given that new cars still go to > 265. I'm also curious as to a comparison of degradation for A/B packs.
FWIW, I go to 212 at 90 and 244 at 100 so I'm guessing your numbers would be similar.�
Jan 17, 2014
Matahari 17.5K miles. 90% charge yields 219 miles, 100% charge yields 250. Going on 2 long trips this weekend and will range charge 2-3 days in a row. Will report back if numbers change after consecutive range charges.�
Jan 17, 2014
aviators99 1 hour can be a big difference when you're doing a range charge. Next time you do it, try to catch it when it completes. I'd like to get as many data as possible and we need to make sure we're comparing apples to apples.�
Jan 17, 2014
Fedderman Will do. My next range charge will be in 2 weeks. As a reference point however, a year ago an hour or so after charge completed I was seeing ~265 rated miles.�
Jan 17, 2014
Benjamin Brooks I'm @ 16K miles, "B" battery, 90% charges to 222-224 on 5.8.4. Haven't charged to 100% in about 6 months or more...�
Jan 17, 2014
tdiggity I'm getting 218 @ 90% and got 244 @ 100% just last week. I didn't get a chance to do it twice to see what the deal was. I usually keep my charge level at 70%. Not sure if I have an A pack or B pack, but I'm seeing similar #'s to you and i'm @ 13.5k miles.�
Jan 18, 2014
Mario Kadastik So no EU reports? Even if it's a car you just got it would help to set a baseline. Am on 5.8.4 myself and as mentioned 492.5km rated range, 394 typical.�
Jan 18, 2014
redevries I get 395 km (245 Miles) typical range after 7000 km. In the Dutch section of the TMC forum I read that this is what nearly everyone gets.
Btw, I get 345 for a daily charge. Latest version of the software..�
Jan 18, 2014
aviators99 Me too. But I saw 273 right when it was done.�
Jan 18, 2014
Ben W It should be pointed out that "Rated Range" displayed on the console is not always equal to "Rated Range" per the EPA. This is to accommodate the ~15mi cushion you still have after you've driven the display down to "0mi".
In practice, I've found that each "Rated Range" tick corresponds to about 300 Wh; if I can achieve this (by driving ~50mph on a level highway) then the Rated Range decreases in lockstep with my actual miles driven. But for an 85kWh battery, 300Wh/mi corresponds to 283 miles, not 265! The extra 18 miles is the cushion you would get if you actually used only 300Wh/mi, more efficient than the EPA cycle.
The upshot is that the "Rated Range" display may be accurate at the high end, but by the time it drops to 0mi, it's very (intentionally) inaccurate. My guess is that as battery capacity degrades over time, the upper end of the scale after a range charge (e.g. 245mi) will stay accurate regarding total energy. I'll just have to keep taking long roadtrips in my S to see if this bears out :-D�
Jan 19, 2014
johnbr I finally broke down and upgraded to 5.8.4, though I see no difference in 90% charge between that and 5.6. I did a range charge earlier, am seeing 225-226 90% and 258.3 (per visibletesla) on max charge tonight. 18.5k miles, do not know if I have a or b, Vin is 068xx.�
Jan 19, 2014
islandbayy Just a update, drove to the Detroit auto show Friday night, attended show Saturday and drov back to Milwaukee Saturday night. I have 20,500 miles on my car now. I range charged 6 times in a 24 hr period, each time I was at 207, 208 or 209 rated miles on my MS60!!!!!!! How's that for battery wear!!! 5.8.4�
Jan 19, 2014
montgom626
And you leave your MS60 outside all the time! In subzero weather! And you run your battery down to 2 miles before you use the SC.�
Jan 19, 2014
islandbayy And range charge on a regular basis (Now over 80 times in 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 0 Hours and 9 Minutes), and see "CHARGE NOW" at least once every other week, excessive use of Full acceleration, constant odd experimentation on the vehicle�
Jan 19, 2014
youlikeadajuice Out of curiosity, how long does it take you to go from 90% charge to 100% full range charge? I did a range charge this morning and after 2 hours I was at 193 rated (from 170 at 90%) and it was doing the 1 minute remaing thing for at least a half hour. I wanted to wait til it got to "charge complete", but I had to leave. I have 19,500 mi on my 60. I don't range charge or run down the battery as often as you, so I suppose mine could take longer to do "balancing", but I was just looking for some sort of a baseline time.�
Jan 19, 2014
islandbayy
When it says 1 minute remaining like that, it is balancing the battery pack. It could take few minutes at that point, or it could take a hour. If you don't need the vehicle, its best to let it finish before driving, though, if you need to drive now, just go ahead, it will not hurt anything.
Now, if i'm charged to 90% like I do on a daily basis (usually just hit range charge right before I need it), and then hit range charge, during the summer, it would take about 1 hour on my 14-50. I'd do it at 6am, and it would finish just before my TOS rates were over at 7am. during the winter, it takes about 1.5 hours to range charge, MUCH longer if the pack is cold soaked, as it will need to heat the pack above 32*F before it can charge it.�
Jan 19, 2014
jerry33 The last 1 minute appears to be when the system is balancing the pack. It can last for an hour. This is nice if you have the time, but otherwise don't worry about it.�
Jan 19, 2014
youlikeadajuice Thanks for the info! I figured it was balancing, but at over 2 hrs I wasn't sure how long it would go. I'll have to give it more time the next go round so I can let it complete.�
Jan 19, 2014
vgrinshpun Islandbayy's record of battery "aging" is indeed very good, especially considering all of the pointed factors of it's use. Just to clarify, however, low temperatures have detrimental effect on amount of energy that can be extracted from the battery, but it helps to preserve battery longevity.�
Jan 19, 2014
araxara I have a 1 year old P85 with a B battery pack and 23K miles on the car (got 125kW charging on Flagstaff, AZ supercharger). 100% range charge yields 257 miles and 90% charge yields 225 miles. I range charge about 2-3 times per month since I need to cover over 200 miles with a 4000ft elevation change. This all seems in line with similar age cars with the B battery pack.�
Jan 19, 2014
apacheguy Meanwhile, my 1 year and 3 month old A pack with 23 K only gets 244 at 100% and 212 at 90%. I definitely think B packs are seeing better numbers at similar mileage.�
Jan 19, 2014
dave Is there a FAQ or something telling the difference between A and B battery packs and how to tell what you have?�
Jan 19, 2014
araxara This thread: Older Tesla's limited to 90kW super charging�
Jan 19, 2014
ckessel Yea, my A pack at just over 1 year only gets about 215 at 90%. The B folks not only got better SC, but the initial year's degradation seems better.�
Jan 19, 2014
Alexander My standard charge only yields 234 miles of range. I haven't done a full charge yet. Is 234 miles on a standard charge normal?�
Jan 19, 2014
araxara That's what I got when I had less mileage on my pack. Now I get 225. It may also be depended on the software version you have. It seems that my standard charge range went down at some point when I upgraded my software.�
Jan 19, 2014
Alexander Ok, just checking since the OP said his standard charge dropped to 236 from 243. I think it's software related since my pack is brand new and only get 234 on a standard charge.�
Jan 19, 2014
Cottonwood My MS is 16 months old, and has 13,000 miles. Did a range charge yesterday and got 253 miles on my 80A HPWC in Pagosa, then drove 310 miles with a 70A J1772 add on in Salida, arriving at the Silverthorne Supercharger with 35 miles, then arrived Boulder with 90 miles or so. For grins tried the slow charge and a second range charge today, knowing that I was going to drive 30 miles or so today to pull the 100% down. Charged overnight to 90% at 15A on my HPWC in Boulder. Then charged at 15A for a while and realized I needed to speed up the process to have some balance time, turned the current up to 24A, and ended with 30 minutes of 1 min to go. Ended at 256. At least this time, range charge, deeper discharge, slow charge, second range charge got me 3 more miles.
I usually charge to 80% unless I need it, range charge when I need it, but hit the road within hours. The car is garaged at 50? in winter, usually 75?-85? most of summer in garage. I wish I still could see those 265 range charges like it was new, but 256 is not bad at this point. BTW, it should be obvious that I have an "A" battery.�
Jan 19, 2014
apacheguy Which would seem to undercut Jerome's assurance that the reliability and quality is the same in addition to him being wrong about the 4 minutes.�
Jan 19, 2014
dave 1300 posts... Anything more specific? Thanks!�
Jan 19, 2014
jyc Not sure if we have an "A" or a "B" pack. I checked the front passenger wheel well area for a battery sticker and couldn't find one. Found stickers for some of the suspension parts though. Not sure if it makes any difference that our pack was swapped out some time in April or May after a contactor failure left us stranded. Any other place this battery sticker could be???
�
Jan 19, 2014
gg_got_a_tesla It's not in the wheel well but, straight behind the wheel as you look at the wheel. Stick your camera (phone) with a flash right around the back of the tire and you should see the sticker facing you.�
Jan 19, 2014
Rprp I did my first range charge today, Dutch. 493.1km rated and 394.5km typical range.�
Jan 19, 2014
Fedderman See post #577. Putting suspension on high and turning wheels to left will make it a bit easier to see the label.�
Jan 20, 2014
Mario Kadastik Excellent, we're within half a km and as I had to leave before the pack was fully balanced that might be about right. You are on 5.8.4 as well?�
Jan 20, 2014
WarpedOne That is 0,1% accuracy...
I don't buy into these numbers�
Jan 20, 2014
Go4IT EU car delivered begin 09/2013, odo now at 22.500km, initial full charges were 500km now dropped to 486km (similar temperature).
Because I drive long distance, I don't mess with partial charge and charge 100% almost every time. I just make sure the car is now left too long with 100% charge to long to reduce duration of high SOC.
Running v5.8.4 (didn't see any major difference right after an update though difference could very well be due to the way range is calculated in each version).
I don't plan to change my charging method (full 100% charge, almost always) since this is the only way to limit range anxiety.
I have a B battery pack.
Interested to compare these numbers with yours.�
Jan 20, 2014
Rprp Yes, I am on 5.8.4 but only 3.900km driven, car delivered on 30th December.�
Jan 20, 2014
mknox I am at 10 months with just about 19,000 miles. I also get 215 at 90%�
Jan 20, 2014
Zextraterrestrial ~18k ~14months just did a 100% and 99-100 took a little over an hour for about 2 mi added but rate was @ ~18mi/hour for the full hour. finished at 242mi, 90% is still 212.�
Jan 20, 2014
andrewket VIN just above 10k (April/May 2013 build). B battery. 8096 miles. 5.6 fw. Normally charge at 80A to 70%. Just range charged for the first time in awhile. 252.9 rated miles. Last time I think I got 255.�
Jan 20, 2014
tdiggity I wanted to summarize a few things I've been seeing in the posts:
To see if you have lost range, do a few 100% --> 0% --> 100% charges. Does your range increase each time? If so, great, range returned through balancing. This may help you if you have been limiting your charge to 50%-80% for some time. And, if you do the repeated 100% --> 0% --> 100% charges and don't see an increase, then you know that you have lost some range.
With regards to hidden range, it exists to a certain extent, but because new cars and some older cars are seeing 265 miles on a full charge, if your full range charge is less than 265 and it's not returning when you do 100->0->100, than you don't have anything hidden from you.
Thoughts?
Edit - yes, doing 100-->0-->100 a few times may be harmful to your battery...
Edit 2 - There also may be some differences in how hte 'A' and 'B' battery packs are holding up. If you can include all this information in your posts, that will help with the meta info:
* mileage
* usual charge %/rate
* 90% rate
* 100% rate
* did you do the 100->0->100 check?
* A pack or B pack�
Jan 20, 2014
Gear Seems logical to me, especially if you don't need or care to know the actual number. Just do the cycle once. If it improves, great. Then you know there's probably more there, but you don't have to necessarily do it to the point that you may be actually harming your battery just to get the exact number.�
Jan 20, 2014
scaesare My 90% charge level is about 220-221*
I'm at about 8 months old and just under 18K miles
*whatever it takes�
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