Dec 3, 2014
wk057 Well, I'm just hoping for a December 2014 delivery for tax reasons... so if I get it December 31st, I'm still happy. Sooner is better, of course, but I want them it to be right.�
Dec 3, 2014
AlMc I agree that I want them to get them right. However, I wanted to take advantage of the tax credit this year and my VIN makes my car a 2014 model. I asked specifically if they could get it delivered by 12/31/14 before ordering and assured it could be. IF, I had known that it would be delivered in Jan 2015 or beyond I would have waited, and like Lolachampcar, gotten a '2015'.
Mine is a first world issue and it will not cause me to lose any sleep, just would have been nice to know.
The car still may be delivered before 12/31/14, but it is looking more like it will not.�
Dec 3, 2014
gpetti My information now is a 1 week delay; however, I guess that could be a rolling week. I imagine some DSs are reluctant to say 1 week in case it does keep creeping.�
Dec 3, 2014
basf_audio Was just now told from my DS that "P85D�s are delayed but it is not necessarily a quality issue. The delay stems from a late shipment of next-gen seats." Seems odd from the perspective that some have posted here that they were supposed to take delivery today of their P85D - which would mean that their car was finished, trucked, and on schedule to be handed over. That doesn't seem like a seat issue. Just curious... I have a late December delivery and I was informed that it shouldn't impact my own delivery.�
Dec 3, 2014
lsnetman if you complete the paperwork and pay for the car, financed or not, by December 31, but don't take delivery until January, can you claim the credit in 2014? Will Tesla allow it? Just wondering.�
Dec 3, 2014
basf_audio I was told that even if my car wasn't actually in my hands on the 31st - I could still take "remote delivery" of the car "direct from the factory". The quotes are to emphasis nebulous inference.
�
Dec 3, 2014
EarlyAdopter Yeah, well bummer but such is life being an early adopter. We're all blazing the trail and will contribute to Tesla getting all of the issues ironed out. It's just the price of early admission. Gonna be worth it.�
Dec 3, 2014
breser Doesn't matter what Tesla allows, it's what the tax code says and what the IRS allows.
Given the way the tax code is written, I don't think payment matters, but rather when you start using the car.
Emphasis mine.
The IRS interpretation leaves a little more wiggle room here though.
But I tend to view that as a backstop against creative interpretations of "placed in service" allowing credits for vehicles you don't actually own and not as an invitation to take the credit earlier based on titling the car before delivery.
Personally, I wouldn't risk trying to take the credit early. I'm not a tax lawyer or an accountant, so take my advice with a grain of sand.�
Dec 3, 2014
AlMc Interesting concept. I will check with my DS and accountant. I don't mind doing this. I am financing less than 50% of the total value as Energy Federal Credit Union is just about giving away money at 0.61%. Not sure if they would be onboard paying for a not delivered car.
Any accountants have the answer?
****Thanks Breser, we cross posted******�
Dec 3, 2014
EarlyAdopter The seats are one of the last things to go in, and it would be easy to skip that step, finish everything else up, then go back and drop the seats in later once the issues there were resolved.
If we take the combination of the two rumors we have from DS's - "Elon isn't happy with the quality of something with the P85Ds" and "there's some delay due to the seats" - then perhaps the problem is there's some quality issue with the seats Elon is unhappy about, and our cars are fully built and awaiting that seat issue to be resolved.
The cars that were done and ready to ship might have thus also been pulled back to redo something with the seats.
The fix could be something Tesla is waiting on shipment of a revised part from the seat vendor.�
Dec 3, 2014
commasign Agreed. This is way better than all of us taking delivery too soon and then filling the forums with dozens of P85D problem threads!�
Dec 3, 2014
wk057 You must have your car on or before the 31st in order to claim the credit on 2014 taxes. Payment and such doesn't matter.
My accountant's words were "You must officially own it by the 31st to qualify for 2014." His clarification being that I must "drive it off of the lot" by the 31st to qualify.�
Dec 3, 2014
bonaire This is for revenue recognition for the quarter-end. Some people have loans starting and payments made even before taking delivery. They can recognize that as a sale for the month-end.�
Dec 3, 2014
AlMc Just to clarify: If a lender is willing to make the payment to TM before delivery and one starts making payments on the loan then the IRS will allow the tax credit?�
Dec 3, 2014
jpet If this is the case, I believe it would be better if Tesla would just communicate this as the reason behind the delay. If it is just seats and just one week, we don't need to worry...
But, if parts were not available when they launched production of the P85D, it is strange they did not postpone building the first batch in the first place.
It is to our best interest to give them the time to iron out possible issues so let's keep our fingers crossed.�
Dec 3, 2014
bonaire IRS question? Probably best to talk to an IRS agent (I think there are offices scattered around).
Now, the IRS code for Energy Efficient vehicles was basically setup to help get cars built and sold - an industry starting public benefit. I think it is a soft rule that says the "aquisition" date is the date for the tax credit. If you pay for it even if it is on the truck, I bet the IRS will let that slide. But I'm not a qualified accountant and really the answer is in the IRS's auditor's hands. If you "own" the car and cannot touch it - you still own it. I wouldn't do it - what if they hurt the car before you see it or somehow the truck has an accident, etc. I would pay for the car when it was in view and can be inspected. Tesla does have a history of trying to lock down finances days before delivery and I have read stories here on this forum (not this thread) about someone taking delivery in the first days of the next quarter after doing paperwork in the prior quarter. That was back during the turn of Q1-Q2 of this year. Revenue recognition is detailed in the company financial documents as "if payment is assured".�
Dec 3, 2014
breser I highly doubt this.
- - - Updated - - -
Yup, there are lots of things you can get away with if you don't get audited. It's not like the IRS knows when you picked up the car. So this whole thing would only be an issue if you got audited. In my opinion it's not worth the risk. Even if you figure the cost of money is 5%, $7500 for a year is $375.�
Dec 3, 2014
jstepy Just spoke with my Costa Mesa Delivery Team and while my car went into production on 11/25/14 according to their computer it's currently still in paint?
Isn't that the first thing of production? Am I getting some extra coats... some extra flake :wink:?
He estimated it would be done and ready for transport this weekend and actually made a tentative appointment for me to pick up on the 12th. I'd be very happy with that.
We shall see.�
Dec 3, 2014
3s-a-charm I'm okay with a delay if it is because Elon is checking the quality on my car. One request, though... can I get Elon to sign my dash, please?�
Dec 3, 2014
bonaire Or maybe a test drive video of each car with a title of "Launched by Elon".�
Dec 3, 2014
sandpiper Yes please! That would make it a collector's item. Maybe not the dash, but someplace a bit more subtle, like inside the door-frame.�
Dec 3, 2014
EarlyAdopter Not even the early Signatures got signed by Elon, despite the name and that he personally inspected all of the cars off the line.
I always thought that was a serious oversight. I mean, come on - someone hand that man a Sharpie!�
Dec 3, 2014
gpetti I don't think that Osama said Elon had quality concerns he said "Elon is not happy with the P85Ds coming off the line". That could be a variety of things. Maybe the performance doesn't match original specs, maybe they were going to deploy a new feature that is not ready yet etc. etc. It seems very unlikely that we are missing seats. My car was completed and Tesla's delivery system (as used by the DSs) showed my car as ready for transport. It was only yesterday that it was pushed back into Production so the idea that it was missing seats seems pretty unlikely.�
Dec 3, 2014
NOLA_Mike Note to self --- check for seats when picking up car...�
Dec 3, 2014
Gwgan Is this rumor ripe enough to start throwing cabbages at Futuris?
Tesla supplier Futuris Automotive inks big lease in Newark - San Francisco Business Times
(Don't think so, but the seats are outsourced)�
Dec 3, 2014
AlMc I checked with my CPA. The car must be in your possession by December 31st to qualify for 2014 tax credit as many have speculated. 'Possession' can be argued though. IF the car is fully paid for and the paperwork from TM shows it is fully paid for by December 31st technically it is your 'possession' regardless of the physical location. He also indicated that the if you took the credit in 2014 that the IRS would likely not challenge it as you could have just as easily taken it in 2015 if physical possession was just a couple days into January. It has some 'wiggle room'.�
Dec 3, 2014
yocool86 I received my docusign docs today and completed them. They stated a delivery date of 12/20 but sounds like it might be sooner. I sent the wire today as they said they can not release the car into TX without having it paid for. They havnt said anything about any delays other than they are looking for a truck to put it on. Will keep you guys posted when I know more.�
Dec 3, 2014
Theshadows I would not say it it past Elon to hold up the deliveries because of a seat issue. IIRC he held up early deliveries because the stitching wasn't right on the sun visors. Seats have to be way more complicated to make than sun visors. If the first seats came through with bad stitching or springs being off I could see him holding off on it.
He was visibly distraught (even looking embarrassed) at an event (the investors meeting?) last year when he was asked if it was possible to take the bmw seats and put them in a Model S.
I also believe that Elon is a fantastic person to be doing the QA. He is the most vested person in the company and a genius with an engineering degree. If there is a mechanical issue with the drive unit I have every confidence in the world that he could find it and get it fixed.
I also hope he signs the visors of those he personally inspects. A nice added bonus for the early adopters.�
Dec 3, 2014
FredTMC excellent news. Yes, keep us posted
regarding the "new seats" and dec deliveries, if this issue was the difference between dec or jan delivery on my car, I'd rather TM put in the old seats and deliver my car. Customer gets his car and tax credit. TM books a sale. WIN / WIN
the new seats can be swapped out later.�
Dec 3, 2014
andrewket The code says when title transfers. In the states that Tesla cannot sell in, title technically changes hands in California. I think this can be done legally.�
Dec 3, 2014
3s-a-charm Will I get a full tank of gas when I get my new car? BMW did this for me... :tongue:�
Dec 3, 2014
andrewket I am without a car, so I would opt for this as well. Costly to Tesla, but good customer service. I thought about wanting a 2015 model year/vin if delivery is going to be in January, but realized there may still be a benefit to me to have a 2014. I pay yearly personal property taxes (Virginia). The number of 2014 P85Ds in Virginia will be less than 3? 5? It will make establishing the value quite difficult. As a result they may use 2015 numbers and then subtract from there. Or use 2014 P85 values.�
Dec 3, 2014
thelastdeadmouse I think its within reason that the seats were made, but weren't up to expectations, so the car was completed sans seats to be installed later. An automated system picks up that the car has come off the line and changes status to completed, then someone changed it back to in production while it awaits a new batch of seats.
Not saying that this is what happened, but there's certainly ways your facts can still line up with the seat theory.�
Dec 3, 2014
ArtInCT I feel for you all and know that this little delay is really a nit, with the exception of those who have a time constraint
on the transaction.
If the problem is seat finish/quality/appearance I would consider that a very minor issue.
Just can't wait for you guys to start getting your cars (Fremont, CA orders for sure) .... fingers crossed.�
Dec 3, 2014
GonzoDad I'm doubtful that EM is out on the line doing QA. More likely he is getting reports from QA on P85D performance in various areas vs spec, and he happens to be the guy that makes the call regarding whether what they are seeing is good enough for release. Something may be far enough out of tolerance that he's simply uncomfortable letting them go, since the last thing he wants or needs is for any of us to be dissatisfied. Whether that's seats or "something else" we may never know ;-)�
Dec 3, 2014
benjiejr I sent an email to my DS asking if he was aware of any delays in the production and/or delivery of the P85Ds and he said he was unaware; incidentally he informed me that mine has entered production. My dashboard does not reflect this status change yet. It still shows that I am in the production queue.
Here is a quote from the email received at 3:18 PM CST today:
"Thank you for your other note as well, I am unaware of any delay. Good news is that your Model S has officially entered production just a short while ago!"
So the plot thickens... *cue dramatic music*�
Dec 3, 2014
sundoc So I too heard from my DS. If I'm understanding properly some cars were completed but there was a concern with the 'fit and finish' of the first few cars Elon drove. So until this is addressed the Ds are on hold.
My DS still feels that the last week of Dec will be attainable... So a 2 week delay for me (if it pans out that way). No bigge overall, I've been waiting since July, what's a few more weeks!
As many above have opined, I too would rather have a quality completed build, as opposed to a rushed incomplete job.�
Dec 3, 2014
andrewket I'm sure Tesla is also quite aware that these cars are going to people who will write reviews of the car. Tesla should want their product to be great for all, but the multiplier effect is going to be disproportionate for the first batch of cars. They need to nail it.�
Dec 3, 2014
lolachampcar It is the Internet and there is no place to hide. They know exactly what is going to happen with the first dozen cars. Forum members will go through them with a fine tooth comb and post every detail.�
Dec 3, 2014
Cottonwood It's more likely if you ordered dual chargers! :biggrin:�
Dec 3, 2014
MarcG When I hear "fit & finish" I automatically think "interior". Besides the next-gen seats, I don't think there's anything new about the P85D that hasn't been already in production and delivered for a while (including AutoPilot). So either it's the seats, or "fit & finish" means other components than interior. Thoughts?�
Dec 3, 2014
sundoc
Yeah I was thinking the exact same thing... The seats that is.�
Dec 3, 2014
breser I know this is nitpicky, but no that is not what the code says. The tax code says when the vehicle is "put in service." The IRS's bulletin adds the additional restriction that this can't happen before the title passes. Their bulletin clearly notes that this is an additional requirement.
You're pressing your luck if you claim the tax credit before delivery. If you get audited you're at the mercy of the auditor if you do this. If their nice they might ignore it since it just shifts when you'd take the credit, but they don't have to be nice.
Edit: Note the term acquired is defined as the title passing under state law.�
Dec 3, 2014
GonzoDad Yes, seems it would have to be the seats. We know Elon wasn't a fan of the previous seats, so he's likely paying special attention to these. That said, doesn't make much sense that this wouldn't have come up earlier.
IMO it's all speculation at this point, as the story seems to change from DS to DS. Regardless, it does help to talk through this with you all ;-)�
Dec 3, 2014
3s-a-charm Has anyone thought that the "fit and finish" excuse is being used to cover up a larger problem - what about regulatory approval of some sort? Not trying to be a conspiracy theorist here but the romantic idea of Elon Musk personally inspecting cars and delaying delivery because he isn't 100% satisfied with fit and finish on a car that is 90% in existence (or more so for the interior) seems a little far-fetched. Or perhaps I simply underestimate the way the company is run?
Prove me wrong... Sign my dash please, Elon! (VIN P64397) :love:�
Dec 3, 2014
commasign In "Revenge of the Electric Car", there's a scene (at 43:30; available on Netflix) where Elon is standing in the holding room of a few dozen Tesla Roadsters which were built but not ready for delivery due to many "fit and finish" issues. He seemed quite stressed and upset at the condition of the cars and appeared to take control of the situation at least on camera. Wondering if that's what's going on here.�
Dec 3, 2014
wk057 Yeah, if you're taking requests, I could go for a signed dash also, lol. P64184.
Still "In Production" on dashboard. E-Mailed DS early in the afternoon. No response as of yet.�
Dec 3, 2014
andrewket Ha- that's funny. Please don't sign my dash. But I'll take a picture of Elon sitting in my car at the factory
So I spoke to my DS. Turns out he spends some time on the forums, and has visited our thread here (hi Adam!). Have I mentioned he is great, stays in touch, etc?
I was looking at the spreadsheet to try to find any correlations on the cars that have finished production and that are now on hold, and ironically the one thing that is in common is the black interior. This doesn't mean this is the problem, it's just a datapoint. If the problem is in fact the seats, it *could* be isolated to the black seats. I guess we'll find out when PatT's or my car finishes production, which are the first non-black interior cars to have entered production (we think...).
IMHO, fit and finish could mean the interior. It could also mean the frunk, or the new charge port. Both are new for the P85D. So while the guess of the seats seems like a good one, it could be a red herring.�
Dec 3, 2014
aznt1217 I'm pretty sure he's inspecting them... this is a guy who focuses on details such as a singular piece of window trim... instead of having multiple pieces like other cars.�
Dec 3, 2014
gpetti Loving all the conjecture as ever, humorous and intriguing! Sure going to miss this when my car comes in :smile:
Here's my contribution.
My. DS (who also comes onTMC from time to time - and is also great!) says they told him nothing about reasons, just that there would be a one week delay. He says they typically don't share much detail. Can't blame them but have they seen how far we can extrapolate no information? Surely the facts would be tamer.
Im wondering if the P85D could be built on a different (new) production line? The seats is also a very likely option. I'm thinking the color is coincidental as the ones being held up are the ones that are otherwise already built. Mine had already flipped to completed but any that were still in production have been kept in that state pending seat replacement or whatever. I think someone else's was flipped to complete, not sure if that car has also flipped back to in production.�
Dec 3, 2014
andrewket I don't remember where I read this.. so of course it could be totally wrong, but I thought the skateboard for the D's was in fact being built on the new line.�
Dec 3, 2014
electrish I think the seat issue is a red herring.
If you look at the significant number of cars that started production last week, right before a long holiday weekend, the comparably low number this week is puzzling. Given the substantial number of P85D orders and their purported importance to Tesla's production numbers in the 4th quarter, you would expect them to really ramp up production this week.
What the spreadsheet tells us though is that production of new cars was almost come to a halt; only six vehicles entered production on Monday, one yesterday, and one today. Either the spreadsheet does not include the majority of cars that started production this week, or there is a bigger problem.
If it were just the seats, wouldn't you expect the production of cars to go ahead as scheduled, with them fitting the seats as they become available, instead of it holding up the entire production?
And there are a few non-next generation seats further down in the spreadsheet, which could have started production instead, but haven't.�
Dec 3, 2014
bonaire The delay reminds me of the software project I'm working on. However, we are delayed by months and not a week.
They had the demo P85D cars running around and the whole D-reveal in October so they do work. If it is hardware - then it may be something with the front motor? or something with the dual controllers and synchronizing power to both motors for smooth driving? No idea. Just guessing. It's probably the visors again.�
Dec 3, 2014
sundoc While I know there are a bunch of us on this forum (as well as the Tesla forum), I know there are ALOT more people out there who aren't here. From what the sales guys were saying on Oct.11, in Toronto on the day of the D launch, there were 30 orders for the D, with about half of them being 'upgrades' from already ordered cars. On the spread sheet we have maybe 5-6 ppl from Toronto... So who knows, maybe there have been a bunch of cars going into production daily but just aren't represented on our spreadsheet here.�
Dec 3, 2014
electrish Almost certainly, the spreadsheet only represents a small subset of all P85D orders, however, you would expect them to be somewhat distributed evenly or maybe weighted towards early orders, due to the higher numbers of early adopters on the Forum. However, I would not expect this cutoff to happen after the first week of production. I would be surprised if we are really only looking at a week long delay in production. We'll know soon enough!�
Dec 3, 2014
Drron I worked at the Ford plant in Dearborn during the summers while working my way through college and part of my summer job included what they called "change over". "Change over" meant they had to adjust many of the machines that were producing the new models that were signs antsy different from the previous model year.
The first two weeks were very slow and produced a lot of scrap parts or problem vehicles. Engineers would be running around angry with machines and men as things were not turning out the way they had "engineered" them to turn out. The hourly workers (myself included) would just smile and bite our tongues to keep from laughing as we spent half the work day sitting on our butts watching the salaried guys going crazy.
Finally, after about two weeks they got everything to work (men and machines) the way they were supposed to and then the only breaks we had was 10 minutes in the morning and 10 minutes in the afternoon. Maybe despite all the robots, all the technological advances and all the computers at the Tesla plant, things haven't changed as much as we think when it comes to auto production and change going smoothly. Be patient as they want to get it right. Dr. Ron�
Dec 3, 2014
andrewket What's this patient thing you mention? I'm going to have to go look it up. Of course you are correct. I just so don't want to have to drive a rental mini-van on my trip in a few weeks. Kill me now.�
Dec 3, 2014
AlMc Pictures or it did not happen!:biggrin:�
Dec 3, 2014
sataponw I wonder if there is any issue with the expanded factory that is causing the delay.�
Dec 3, 2014
dennis No one has spoken yet about the next gen REAR seats. They are yet to be seen and aren't in the 3 P85D test cars that have been reported here (Fremont, Palo Alto, San Diego). So perhaps they are late being delivered or have fit and finish issues. That would explain how the cars could be "completed" but are now delayed.�
Dec 3, 2014
andrewket They have been seen. A few cars at the LA event had them. There are some pics of them on here somewhere. Currently on my phone which is a pain to search/link from or I would do so.�
Dec 3, 2014
GetAmped If you watch Bjorn Nyland's latest YouTube video he compares a October delivered S85 to his P85. The funny thing is that the S85 clearly has next Generation seats at least in the back as seen by the huge backrests that now partially block the rear view. Bjorn calls this out in his narrative.
Can anyone else confirm if other recent deliveries also have these new seats? Seems like you don't have to order a P85D to get the next gen seats...�
Dec 3, 2014
gpetti This thread has some pictures from LA.
P85D - NEW Seats Announced - Finally!!
- - - Updated - - -
I don't think those are next gen seats. They are slightly different versions of the original generation seats with higher headrests. You can hopefully see the difference with the ones in the link above. The next generation seats are only available with P85D.�
Dec 3, 2014
rays427 I was at a Tesla Store today to check out a P85D with Next Generation Seats in front only. However, while I was there there was also a new S85 and it had back seats with taller head rests. It did not have the extra bolstering of the Next Generation back seats. I was told the taller head rests are now standard.�
Dec 3, 2014
breser Yes, it was done to raise the safety rating for rear passengers.�
Dec 3, 2014
rays427 By the way I should have mentioned I really like the taller back seat head rests. I'm 6'6" and the shorter head rests would allow my head to lean back and hit the roof. The new taller headrests prevent that at least with the Pano roof. They do cut the view out the back and when I mentioned that to the representative he just folded down the seats and that cured that problem.�
Dec 3, 2014
Hybris yes its just the new headrests that are better for whiplash... Not new generation seats. When the first new generations seats are delivered they need to be rebranded as current generation seats or Re we talking seats for the children here??? ;-)�
Dec 4, 2014
schonelucht If they keep piling up D's and it takes longer than a few days for the issue to clear up, they may not be able to clear the backlog of half-finished D's in time for delivery this quarter. Hence they'd run a big risk of missing their quarterly numbers not just by a bit but by a huge number. Better to produce cars of which you are sure you can deliver them this month.�
Dec 4, 2014
andrewket Look for the side bolsters. The next generation seats have bolsters in the back too, and were in at least one car at the ad unveiling. There were also a few mixed cars, with next gen front and 'new' rears but not next-gen.
Yeah we should start using v1, v2, v3..
A�
Dec 4, 2014
3s-a-charm Yes, I thought of this too. It may have been a risk that Tesla took - pushing the high-margin cars to deliver before end of year 2014 to boost profitability and show well on the year end financials. Meanwhile they could have been producing non-D cars during this time but pushed those into 2015. However, if the delay in producing the D pushes the deliveries to January they will have a lot of explaining to do (more media calming required). 2015 would show well though - if the stock can withstand the turmoil in the market this year. Hopefully it works out and Tesla sorts out this mystery issue and delivers cars in December.�
Dec 4, 2014
LetsGoFast The materiality of any production issues with the D to their bottom line is exactly why they will not disclose any details about the issue to us (or probably to their own sales force). I'd also expect that there are a lot of competing pressures to go ahead and crank them out if the problem is one that will be relatively infrequent or can be easily retrofitted. On the other hand, high customer satisfaction levels and internet word of mouth are fundamental to Tesla's success and negative reports from those of us getting one of the early models would be potentially quite damaging to the brand. There are a lot of new parts added to the line for the D and it is impossible to know from where we sit which ones might be the source of concern and I frankly distrust any reports we get. As it happens, I'm just a few miles from Fremont right now -- maybe I could drive down and ambush some line workers at shift change and trade beer for information!�
Dec 4, 2014
dennis That sounds like a good plan! :biggrin:�
Dec 4, 2014
gpetti Now you're talking. I will chip in for beers.�
Dec 4, 2014
yocool86 My DS just told me that my P85D is ready to be shipped to the service center and is planning on leaving today or tomorrow! We will see if it holds true. Like with most things, I dont believe it until I have the tracking number.�
Dec 4, 2014
Dallas1 Yesterday I received via FedEx the "Application for Registration of New Vehicle" for California from Tesla. Why do we have to first register in California if we are taking delivery in other states? Did all you guys receive this?�
Dec 4, 2014
wk057 Pretty sure because Texas is (insert colorful metaphor here) when it comes to Tesla.�
Dec 4, 2014
benjiejr If it's any consolation, I received the same.�
Dec 4, 2014
NOLA_Mike Mine still says "In Production" and I speculated at the time of VIN assignment that yocool86's and mine would be on the same truck from California to Texas (admittedly that is pure speculation on my part).
I really don't trust the status we see on the My Tesla page of the website.�
Dec 4, 2014
Six Because your state requires all cars to be sold by a dealer. Thank your "bought by the automobile dealers association" legislature and governor.
What Texas can not do is restrict inter state trade. So when you buy a car in CA, where buying direct from Tesla is legal, Texas must allow you to transfer it to yourself in Texas.�
Dec 4, 2014
Super Snake Was told that my car is being built next week and should be at the dealer by the 26th. Unfortunately I'll be out of the country then so I can't take delivery until January 6�
Dec 4, 2014
NOLA_Mike You're right about that! No method (that we can figure out) to this madness...�
Dec 4, 2014
gpetti This seems pretty unlikely. If your DS has not been informed of the delays (as seems to be the case for some) his system probably says that your car is ready for transport. My DS was adamant that my car was ready to be shipped until he got a call from his boss advising him of the delay issues. Funnily enough myTesla was probably more accurate in this case as it had reverted to inProduction which turns out to be accurate.�
Dec 4, 2014
wk057 OK, so, just spoke to my DS who has always been pretty straightforward. His story is that my car and others are done and "in a lot at Tesla" waiting for the Federal Government "to approve the windows sticker for the P85D." And until that happens they can not legally ship any of the P85Ds. When asked about a time frame he said he doesn't have one. Jokingly I said that I hope it's before the end of the year and he said, "Yeah, we're hoping that too."
Dash status still reads "In Production."
How accurate this info is, I don't know, but as I said before my DS has been pretty straight on everything in the past.�
Dec 4, 2014
Zextraterrestrial they did crash test them right?
I don't remember seeing anything about it. Did they need to or is adding that much weight and motor negligible?�
Dec 4, 2014
bollar If this is a surprise to you, then the sales tax you're going to pay when you actually register the car in Texas will also be a surprise.
Like others have said, you are buying the car in California and having it delivered to you in Texas. The car will need the state safety inspection and 6.25% vehicle sales tax paid to the County Tax Collector / Assessor. The good news is that you're not paying the California vehicle sales tax, which is quite a bit higher.�
Dec 4, 2014
gpetti wow that is a completely different reason. If this is the right one, not sure if this would have been better (less embarrassing) to communicate than fit and finish issues? In other words, why wouldn't they just tell us that and blame it on federal bureaucracy that they had underestimated.�
Dec 4, 2014
yocool86
Right now " Production complete" but we are waiting on Mary to send over a copy of the check before they release it. My dashboard changed yesterday to show the breakdown of the payments, (down payment, cash, trade, ECFU)�
Dec 4, 2014
breser This makes sense to me. The thing I've been wondering on the P85D (and the 85D) is when they were going to post the mileage based on EPA testing. The website still doesn't have this information. The window stickers has to have the EPA MPGe listed on it. I assumed that the 85D not shipping till February was due to them prioritizing the P85D MPGe and then planning to do the 85D one after that's done.
If that's not complete, they can't sell the cars because by federal law the window sticker has to be in place.�
Dec 4, 2014
Firewired I am living vicariously through you.
Unless there is a change to my timeline, I am supposed to go into production shortly. I was up at Austin SC on Monday to drop off my trade which went smoothly without any last minute surprises.�
Dec 4, 2014
Andyw2100 In that case, we, as a forum, kinda blew it.
I mean, collectively, we knew of these requirements. And we knew that we had not yet seen any official announcement of an official EPA MPGe. So we should have come up with this possibility on our own. Weeks ago we should have been wondering, "How are they going to sell P85Ds if they don't have an official EPA MPGe?"
Now that this has been highlighted, I'm thinking that it's the kind of thing Tesla would issue a press release on as soon as they had the official numbers, so the fact that we hadn't heard anything should have raised red flags for us. Oh well.�
Dec 4, 2014
Jgdixon Does anyone know if Canada requires the same sticker?�
Dec 4, 2014
gpetti Isn't this the standard window sticker that all car dealers use? I guess maybe your question is whether the sticker is a legal necessity here or not?�
Dec 4, 2014
Aargau I will be at the factory for a tour in 30 minutes. I'll look for a large lot full of P85Ds. Mine still says in queue for production.�
Dec 4, 2014
flyboyzz1 I tend to think it's something bigger than this due to the lack of communication. Come on Tesla- you're better than not filling in your early D adopters.�
Dec 4, 2014
gpetti Take a spy camera�
Dec 4, 2014
redox ...on a drone!�
Dec 4, 2014
Jgdixon Correct, I have seen the sticker but not sure it's law as in the states.
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I was there a few months ago. You may have to go to the end of the building where the service center is. I saw cars there lined up looking like the were ready for shipping. Be prepared for someone to approach you though if they see you wondering around.�
Dec 4, 2014
lolachampcar Late January delivery has been changed to February on my "My Tesla" page.... Looks like there is a linear push on production.�
Dec 4, 2014
Rice390 I got the same intel from my DS on Monday. Window stickers. While the first batches may be delayed, sounds like it's a pretty simple fix to catch back up. I would imagine the bottleneck would be clearing the backlog onto trucks and getting them out. Maybe a week or two delayed on the first batches off the line, and then hopefully just a day or two extra onto the late December deliveries. I'm in the same boat as some others though. Heading out of the country on the 23rd, not coming back until January.�
Dec 4, 2014
Andyw2100 That would be true if they hadn't apparently stalled production. The indications, based on the spreadsheet and cars ordered by people who post here, is that this process has stalled.
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Also only true if the EPA issue is resolved quickly. If there is some issue with that (arguments over the numbers, etc.) that could also pose a bigger problem.�
Dec 4, 2014
gpetti I'm still not sure which reason I believe but if it is stickers I think they have just made a decision not to show the completion status until the car has that sticker. My situation seems to illustrate this further where the status had shown completed for several days but then they chose to flag it as still in product. It's possible too that they would rather have the cars show as still inProduction during this delay than look like undelivered inventory, regardless of what the actual delay is. Depends which metrics they are sensitive to.
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I wonder if the P85D numbers don't look very good. There is some definite slight of hand going on with the range numbers on the web site and the EPA numbers would be pretty unambiguous. Not sure if there is any right of appeal or if these numbers are set in stone.�
Dec 4, 2014
Andyw2100 I think you missed my point.
People here have noted that far fewer cars than we think should be have been ENTERING production over the past several days. Based on what we know about the production schedule, the number of cars that initially entered production, and the number of cars that have entered production the last four or five days, the consensus here seems to be that production has either stopped or significantly slowed down.�
Dec 4, 2014
MarcG Ok guys, I just got the following response from the senior manager of global delivery experience that I've been communicating with:
To which I asked, so what are the official EPA numbers? Will post her response as soon as I get it.
UPDATE - here's the response I received:
So either they did get the stickers but their "sales administration" isn't willing to release the EPA numbers yet, or they still haven't received them and they're stalling us.�
Dec 4, 2014
wk057 I find it interesting that the order page still quotes "December Delivery" for the P85D... I don't think even the P85 was ever 3-4 week turnaround before...�
Dec 4, 2014
breser There was a post on the TM forums where someone was contacted by their DS warning that the P85D they had ordered would have less range than the S85 they had currently. I'd be ready for some range decrease.
There could be any number of reasons for that. They may have shifted production to other non-P85D cars in queue for December. Remember they have to flush the order queue of P85, P85+, green, brown and black roofs this month. If there's any sort of delay on the P85D it would make sense to start building these cars and thus keeping their distribution system busy rather than having everyone sit around twiddling their thumbs for this issue.
It'll be interesting to see what the answer to that is. Technically, you could argue that the issue isn't with the stickers but with the EPA numbers. If you get avoidance on answering that question then I think that's what the delay is. At this point cars would have been delivered so if it's something else they should just be able to answer that question.�
Dec 4, 2014
randompersonx I just got off the phone with the DS.
I was told that it is the Monroney stickers that is the holdup, and that the delivery has likely been delayed by at least a week.�
Dec 4, 2014
LetsGoFast I think this is a pretty strong argument, actually. If it was window stickers you would think they would just keep banging them through production as fast as they can and slap all the stickers on them once they arrive.�
Dec 4, 2014
MarcG I updated my post at the top of this page with the response, which was basically "we're not willing to share the numbers at this point".
Not necessarily. Tesla wants to ship/deliver cars, so if there is a delay with unknown resolution date that's preventing them from releasing P85Ds to customers and recognizing revenue, they're better off building AND shipping other models they know can be released instead of piling up P85Ds that can't be delivered.�
Dec 4, 2014
dennis Good point. Not having a "demand problem" puts Tesla in a position to do this.�
Dec 4, 2014
flyboyzz1 Don't they have a separate line that is handling the D models. I would think it would take too much time to change production programing and staging for a week delay.�
Dec 4, 2014
MarcG When I wrote "we're not willing to share the numbers" I was referring the "we" to that "sales administration" quote referred in the delivery experience manager's reply. She may be willing to share them herself, yes, but the sales administration hasn't released them to her - which I can only infer that, IF they do have the EPA numbers, they're not communicating them to anyone yet.
Yes, and to add to this, the Monroney stickers are apparently required for delivery, so they MUST have them to release cars to their customers. Which is probably why (speculating, of course) they aren't delivering any P85Ds yet.�
Dec 4, 2014
andrewket They can't sell them. Can they move them to the SC so at least when the approval comes in they can immediately release the cars? I'm assuming no or they would have already done it.�
Dec 4, 2014
randompersonx They certainly can ship the cars out to dealers without final window stickers if that's the only issue.
A friend snapped this photo of a brand new 2015 Z06 Corvette:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10675544_10204328395982942_5627486841920513257_n.jpg?oh=1b71f4a875474ee33f7cc11bc31c1caa&oe=55173EDE&__gda__=1427646625_30d707b52d290eac14c1bf29ee0f447e�
Dec 4, 2014
eco5280 That's rich, coming from you.�
Dec 4, 2014
OConnorStP This tweet looks like a P85D in the wild to me -- anybody seen this picture before? If it's new, there's certainly something that looks like a window sticker -- first, here's a link to the tweet:
Crazy4cars on Twitter:
and here's a copy of the picture. Anybody got the story on this picture/car? Maybe life ain't so bad after all?�
Dec 4, 2014
MarcG I wish the photo was of higher resolution - then we could see if the sticker contains valid information. I'm also very curious on the background of when & where the photo was taken!�
Dec 4, 2014
Zextraterrestrial my S never had a final window sticker. I tried a few times to get one through early 2013 but it seemed like they didn't have one for my vin. or they weren't making them yet back then
..that P85D 'wild' picture is at the factory. probably a Test car, 'anything' is possible�
Dec 4, 2014
drrhm also, whats in the back window? Looks like the size of a license or temp license plate.�
Dec 4, 2014
cwood Regardless of Monroneygate, I just got the email from Tesla asking for final payment for my P85D. I'm taking that as a positive sign.�
Dec 4, 2014
andrewket I'm 95% sure this is at the factory, just behind the superchargers. I recognize the solar canopy.�
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