Nov 16, 2013
brianman The instrument cluster lines seems to be at 300, while the energy chart on the 17" seems to put it around 307-308 (IIRC). I agree they've been a bit fuzzy here and could definitely improve in that regard.�
Nov 16, 2013
Gear On the 60, the point where the rated range and projected range intersect seems to be 297, just to add a little more info.
And to the people who claim they are losing range, you can't really claim that until you can show that you're still using the same amount of rated range per actual mile traveled. If the amount of rated range decreased for every actual mile traveled as well, then it's clearly a calculation change.�
Nov 16, 2013
FredTMC I have 17k on my 60 KWH car running v5.6. I get 173mi at 90% "std" charge and 200 for a 100% "range" charge. I did these charges yesterday in 70 degree weather.
I should also note that I really "baby" my battery. I only rarely do a 100% range charge and when I do I then immediately drive the car. I generally keep the car at a low SOC (less than half full) unless I need more range for the next day. If I need more range for the next day I schedule charging to complete right before I drive the car in the morning.�
Nov 16, 2013
rlang59 They should just put it on the charging screen.�
Nov 16, 2013
J in MN The green bar on the charging screen is nice and big, and you can easily read the SOC to 1% precision from it.�
Nov 17, 2013
gg_got_a_tesla Post-5.8, supercharged my S60 at the Fremont factory to 90% and got 176 miles rated. This is in the ballpark of what I had been getting with 4.5 (around 176-178 recently).�
Nov 17, 2013
timdorr Huh? 85,000 Wh / 265 mi = 320.754716981 Wh/mi
That's closer to Ideal: 85,000 Wh / 300 mi = 283.333333333 Wh/mi�
Nov 17, 2013
hans I got 168 miles @ 90% with 5.8, down from 171 with 4.5.�
Nov 18, 2013
gg_got_a_tesla But, not all 85 kWh are available? I match the Rated figures if I do around 290 Wh/mile with my S60.
Hmm... hans, could there be a pack imbalance in your case? As I think I posted somewhere before, you (and SFOTurtle who seems to have similar numbers as you) appear to have done a lot more roadtrips/supercharges/max-charges than I have?!
I'll top up to 90% from a 30A station and a 110V outlet over the next couple of days and see how it goes.�
Nov 18, 2013
wycolo > The green bar on the charging screen is nice and big, and you can easily read the SOC to 1% precision from it. [J in MN]
Not without selecting the Slider, which could then easily alter your setting. Mine leaves you trying to guess from the big empty green bar. This with my old 4.0 (?) ancient upgrade, likely it is now improved.
--�
Nov 18, 2013
cinergi There's a thread somewhere but I speak from first-hand experience. My (Initial rated range - miles driven) only equals the rated range remaining if I averaged 290 whpm (and I'm talking long-distance tests, like 230 miles). I know the math doesn't work, but clearly rated range is much more complex than 85kWh/265m.�
Nov 18, 2013
islandbayy Just update, Firmware 5.8 now, Range Charge = 194 miles immediately after charge, 15,500 miles on my car in 5 months 3 weeks. I topped off at a slow 5 amps last night as well. Outside temps were about 38 degrees and windy.�
Nov 18, 2013
hans I've tried once to rebalance by doing a 100% charge and waiting for it to say "Charge Complete" but it did nothing. I will get it checked out when I go in for my annual service. I assume the techs can see more details on each module or cells voltage levels.�
Nov 18, 2013
tdiggity Compared some readings today from previous versions via the REST API.
Ver 4.5 - Sun Jun 23 02:10:00 PDT 2013
battery_range: 169.33,
est_battery_range: 149.88,
ideal_battery_range: 191.7,
battery_level: 69,
Ver 5.8 - Mon Nov 18 23:40:55 PST 2013
battery_range: 159.66,
est_battery_range: 156.67,
ideal_battery_range: 181.15,
battery_level: 69,
Taking only into account the 'battery_range' number, I'm seeing 10 miles lost between June and Now. This kind of goes along with the my 218 mile range @ 90% (was previous 228-232 in June). Although, I should add that with ver 5.6/5.8 the rated range reading is much more accurate. I can easily hit those numbers whereas before I rarely did even if I got below 300 wh/mi.�
Nov 19, 2013
bluetinc Tdiggity,
I just started playing with 5.8 in the last couple days, but I think that they have modified the predicted display to show only the useable portion of the battery above 0 miles now, which results in predicted miles being ~6% different in my car than it was previously. This change doesn't seem to have effected my "rated range" display on the dashboard, only the energy prediction charts.
Peter
�
Nov 19, 2013
SFOTurtle Perhaps. It just makes planning road trips a little more chancy until we have a lot more data under our belts.
For example, a couple of months ago, I did a range charge to about 203 rated and then left on a trip that was about 175 actual miles. I knew I wouldn't have a lot of margin based on my history with the car, but I still made it because of my prior experience with the car and by carefully watching the range predictor.
Now, let's say hypothetically I do a range charge and I only get 195 or something like that (I don't know if this is where my pack is now as I haven't even charged to 90% yet on 5.8) I'm now going to be more nervous about whether this is really a calculation issue or something else. Yes, I can still use the range predictor, but it's not going to be an easy decision to start out on the trip not knowing whether my pack has less energy than it did before. It really would be nice to have some better data about how many kWh are usable and left on the pack so we could figure out what's really in range in terms of actual miles.�
Nov 20, 2013
Gear At the same time, wouldn't you say it's safer if it under predicts than if it over predicts? Do you really think the battery physically has less energy because of a software update?�
Nov 20, 2013
J in MN I am inclined to say yes. On my first charge after 5.8 the batery level jumped from 44% to 49% in less than one minute, and without a corresponding change in rated range. The charge also completed 30 minutes earlier than expected when it reached the target level, rather than when it replaced the amount of energy consumed the previous day.
This is leaving me wondering if Tesla is now reserving a 5% buffer at the top of the charge window, effectively reducing the usable energy in the battery.�
Nov 20, 2013
SFOTurtle No, I don't think that a software upgrade would impact the physical capacity of the battery pack, at least it shouldn't. If, however, the "true" capacity of a 60 pack is really only 193 rated miles assuming no degradation, then there's a problem somewhere. If someone had told me that 193 rated miles is a more accurate measure of the battery pack at full capacity, then the EPA ratings are way off for the 60 and this car doesn't have the range that it is advertised to have (or used to have when I first got it). Or the other folks who are reporting 205+ rated miles have something wrong on their end and their software is still overestimating their batteries' true capacity. Or there really has been degradation of the pack.
Most of all, I want predictability -- within reason and accepting some variability -- so that longer range trip planning is possible. I don't want to have to stop more than I need to, or make unnecessary detours, because the software is giving my battery capacity a 5% or more haircut out of conservatism. By the example I gave, if I had only started with 193 rated on my trip, I would have made an extra charging stop in my trip from OC to the Buellton SC to avoid having the rated miles be near or at zero and not knowing what kind of buffer Tesla has included. Under 4.5, I did the calculations in advance, kept the speed at 70 mph or below, and made it with 16 rated miles to spare (that is the lowest I've ever run my pack) and no anxiety.�
Nov 20, 2013
brianman I think Gear meant energy capacity in his second question that you quoted. Degradation means loss of energy capacity not "current energy stored". At least to me it does.�
Nov 20, 2013
J in MN True, but the user experience is the same, whether capacity is reduced, or the fraction of that capacity that you are allowed to use is changed. And SFOTurtle originally said "� less energy�", so that was the point I addressed.�
Nov 20, 2013
gg_got_a_tesla Ended up at 173 miles rated at 90% when topping up from a 30A station at work.�
Nov 20, 2013
yobigd20 It looks like Tesla reserves about 10% battery not shown in rated range but shown in the battery pack % slider? v5.8
�
Nov 20, 2013
SFOTurtle Very curious/odd. So you're saying the 13 rated miles is only the small fraction above the 10% bar? Now who wants to be the first one to test this?�
Nov 21, 2013
tdiggity I'm confused. Is anyone on v5.8 getting 265miles (85kw) or 208miles (60kw) @ 100% anymore? If Tesla is hiding off some power, then what are new cars off the factory line getting at 100%?�
Nov 21, 2013
rlang59 I'd be very interested in this info as well.�
Nov 21, 2013
bluetinc Yobigd20,
Are you sure this is much different than before? On my car, the car has always ended up at about 4-6% at 0 rated miles remaining. I don't have any exact numbers for ~12% but that looks to be about where I would expect. The most accurate way to verify if they have changed the below 0 reserve is to see if the pack voltage at 0 miles remaining is the same as it was before, but I have not had an opportunity to do this yet, all I can say is that up to 4.5 the reserve has been unchanged since 11/2012.
Peter
�
Nov 21, 2013
yobigd20 Well that's what I would gather from the screen. so yes, I think rated range excludes 10% of battery capacity. I did read somewhere else that Tesla reserves about 25miles range below "0 rated range", but I don't recall where I read that. That certainly would align with this photo though.
Now as to the difference in 4.5 to 5.8 with regards to this I have no idea because I never took mine down this low before.�
Nov 21, 2013
Kipernicus Yes, curious if the EPA got some new cars with v5.8 and did their testing again, would they still come up with 265 and 208 ratings?
�
Nov 21, 2013
SFOTurtle And if the answers to these questions are yes, then what is the explanation for the discrepancy with cars on the road that are getting nowhere near those numbers? It's either the batteries aren't balancing or their is real degradation. Just saying "driving habits and temperature" won't cut it.�
Nov 22, 2013
yobigd20 Ever since 4.5 I've been charging my car to 80%. I was consistently seeing 197 rated range as soon as it completes (I always check at work mid day when I get the charge point txt msg that it's done). This morning , probably 2-3 hours after completion, it was sitting at 202. Must have rebalanced itself last night. I like seeing gains in rated range! V5.8
�
Nov 23, 2013
SFOTurtle Did a virtual 100% charge this morning in the garage where temps were about 50F (on the cool side here now in Nor Cal). Rated mi were 194 on 5.8 when it reached "calculating time remaining" with amps at 5 when my wife had to take it to go on a 50 mi drive. I didn't have time to let it complete charging and do any further balancing of the pact after it completes charging (if it actually does that).
I'm not losing sleep, but I do think it helps all of us to post data and compare numbers. I have about 11,700 mi on the car. I've probably done about 10 range charges since February, all for long road trips and all followed immediately by discharge. I generally put about 20 miles on the car a day and keep the SOC around 50-70% (at least as calculated under 4.5 and prior).�
Nov 23, 2013
ZBB I took my car down to 2 miles remaining last night... Saw the same thing -- appears to be ~8% remaining on the battery bar (confirmed with VisibleTesla). I've never previously had the car below 40 miles remaining, so don't know if this also happened on 4.5 or 5.6 (its on 5.8 now)...
I'm doing a range charge for a day trip tomorrow -- lowered the amps down to 7 so it will complete about 2 hours before we need to leave (and allow an hour or so for balancing also)... I've previously done 4 range charges -- have seen 208, 201, 202 and 204 miles after doing the range charges. I normally charge to 75% for commuting, so curious to see where the range charge ends up tomorrow. Car now has ~8,000 miles...
�
Nov 23, 2013
SFOTurtle Please do post your number after doing the 100% SOC and drive safely on your trip. Since you've been on 5.8, have you noticed any different numbers at your 75% normal SOC? If you've charged to 90% SOC, what what number did you see?�
Nov 23, 2013
FredTMC I am still getting 200mi range charge on my 60. I don't range charge much and I normally keep a low SOC
I now have over 18k mi on ODO�
Nov 23, 2013
hans I definitely have to get Tesla to look at my S60 because I am getting 165miles at 90% SOC on 5.8 firmware. It's almost due for the annual service anyway so it's time.�
Nov 23, 2013
FredTMC Yeah. I would. How many miles on ODO?�
Nov 23, 2013
hans Just over 10,000 miles on the car. My S60 was one of the first every made so it's one of the oldest even though it not the highest mileage.�
Nov 23, 2013
Daniel Scherer Mine is a P85 and at 80% it reads 222 miles rated and at 100% 253 miles. I have over 24,000 miles on it now.�
Nov 23, 2013
ZBB 5.6 and 5.8 were pretty consistent at 75% -- showed 139 or 140 each morning.
i had 3 flavors of 4.6. After delivery in early June, 75% gave ~150 miles. That started dropping by a couple miles by early August -- had 146 was common. The last sub version of 4.6 was pushed to me around Aug 6, and since then 75% has been anywhere from 139 to 142...
I'll update on the range charge tomorrow...�
Nov 23, 2013
FredTMC let us us know the outcome of Tesla's review of your car.�
Nov 24, 2013
aaron.s Daniel
21,000 miles on my car and I get 222 at 90% charge (I get 193 at 80%) -- are you sure yours was 222 at 80% and not 90%?
Aaron�
Nov 24, 2013
yobigd20 could he be on v4.5 still?
anywho, I'm at 31,000 miles and my 80% was 202 (pic above, this is my daily charge, I know it was def 202 this past week but may have been 204 one of those days), 90% was 225 the other day. haven't done a range charge in a few months now.
It should be noted that any time I actually saw any sort of "drop" in rated range, was right after installing v4.5 and right after installing v5.8. They seem to be lowering the calculated rated range on each update...supposedly to "be more accurate", but as we can clearly see from above pics, they are reserving a bank of about 10% battery power - I guess to simulate the "half-gallon-reserve-tank" typically found in an ICE car after reaching empty. If that is what people are used to (still getting about 20-25 miles after hitting empty), I'm guessing Tesla is doing the same thing now so that if people expect to get 20-25 miles after reaching rated range 0 they actually can. I think one of my recent conversations with a tech at the SC mentioned that too - about 20 miles or so beyond rated range before it'll tell you it's shutting down and to pull over.
In my opinion after driving 31,000 miles, I have yet to see anything conclusive that would signify any real battery degradation as a factor of mileage. You know, we shouldn't even be using mileage here as the variable. It actually should be the kWh used since we all have different driving habits. I think I saw here or in a different post someone only using like 3.1kW for 13k miles (something like 240kWh/mile), whereas I have used 11kW for 31,000 miles (about 350kWh/mile). Clearly I have used more "battery per mile" than the other guy, which could technically translate over to even higher mileage aka what takes me 11kw for 31,000 miles, that same amount of power could take someone else driving less aggressive over 40-45,000 miles....�
Nov 24, 2013
wycolo Peter mentions measuring pack voltage. Seems the best way to show accurately 'what's left in the battery'. I'm surprised no one has come up with a remote reading voltmeter to monitor pv (or have they?).
With a lead acid you can measure specific gravity as well as voltage; both give very accurate indications of SOC. With Lithium you only have emf.
--�
Nov 24, 2013
Daniel Scherer My mistake it is 90%.�
Nov 24, 2013
ZBB At SFOTurtle's request: The 100% charge finished this morning. Visible Tesla shows 197.9 miles of range avail. It hit that about 55 minutes prior to charging stop -- and showed 99% charge. The last 55 minutes was the pack balancing, and as soon as it hit 100%, VisibleTesla shows charging stopped...
So I now have a theory... Since I had ~8% of charge remaining at 2 miles, and with today's charge maxing out at 198 -- I'm guessing Tesla has remapped the range display to leave additional reserve below 0. 5% = ~10 miles -- so if 0 miles remaining = ~5%, then 100% now equals 198 miles instead of 208.
The next question is when did Tesla do this... I've done 5 range charges, but on 4 different firmware versions:
- 1.33.48 (4.5) -- showed 208 miles
- 1.33.61 (4.5) -- showed 202 miles. I received this update on Aug 6 -- and it was in August when I noticed that my 75% charges were showing ~145 miles, not the previous ~150.
- 1.45.45 (5.6) -- 2 range charges, showed 201 and 204 miles; the 2nd charge was 1 day after the first and on a road trip, so there could have been some pack balancing helping "free up" the extra 3 miles.
- 1.49.24 (5.8) -- 198 miles.
Based on that, I think Tesla made a change towards the end of 4.5 that "slid the scale" by ~2.5% == i.e. 5 miles of range on a 60. I can't prove this since I never took the car below ~40 miles previous to Friday. I also think they made another change in 5.8 to move the scale another ~2.5% == so there is now 5% avail "below 0", which means that the top-end range is also 5% "less".
Just a theory... Any other observations that can help decipher this? If we can, it could help explain why so many of us are seeing rated range go down... Either that, or I am seeing battery degredation after less than 6 months and just over 8k miles...�
Nov 24, 2013
Andrew Just did a 100%/Max Range charge, on v5.8, and we're getting only 248 rated miles. We have about 7,700 miles on the car.
We had been getting about 260 miles on v4.5 from a max charge - thought it's been a couple of months since I've charged to 100%.
I sure hope the drop is due to Tesla's adding some extra buffer at the end*, not due to degradation of our battery. (We usually charge to 75%.)
--
* 'm not really a fan of this idea. I'd much prefer that zero actually equals zero!
�
Nov 24, 2013
jweinstein There's a great thread on the TM forums that helped me understand the battery pack buffer and why rated range miles were decremented at 287 Wh/mi for many drivers. It's at: Sign into My Tesla | Tesla Motors
However, I most appreciated and understood this graphical representation (courtesy of nickjhowe) of the available kW/hr in an 85 kW/hr pack:
Do these assumptions still hold true in Firmware 5.8, after the revised range formulas?�
Nov 24, 2013
Andrew Thanks jweinstein. Sounds like with 5.8, what they did was subtract the buffer off the top - even if it was already there. I suppose that makes more sense (at least it'll be more consistent throughout the SOC). @pgiralt made that point on July 30, 2013 in the above thread. But dangit, I still want zero to equal zero!
�
Nov 24, 2013
brianman I don't. And I don't think you really do either. If you have a friend or relative that is new to your vehicle borrowing or shuttling your car for you, you don't want any protection against bricking or any reserve?�
Nov 24, 2013
SFOTurtle Thanks for posting. Interesting theory. I wonder how folks with brand new S60s are faring with 90% and 100% SOC. If people with brand new S60s are still showing numbers in or around 208 rated for 100%, then I'm not sure if your theory is correct. But if their numbers are more like 203 or in that neighborhood, then that does suggest that the scale was lowered and the buffer is on the other side of 0.
And if there is a real discrepancy between the new 60s and those with more mileage on them or ones delivered earlier in the year (like 208 vs. 193), then I'd like to figure out whether that's a balancing issue (which seems to be common) or degradation. I'm interested to see what Hans learns when he takes his in for the annual inspection. I'm about two months away from my annual inspection.�
Nov 25, 2013
Andrew Hmm. I'd definitely want protection from bricking -- but "zero" to me would mean "the car won't drive any more right now" (not bricked!).
On a day-to-day, driving-around-town basis, we never get anywhere close to zero. So, at least for me, this question is only really relevant to road trips (and that also means friends and family aren't going to get anywhere near zero, either. No way are they taking my baby out of town! heh.)
Because charging stations are not as common as gas stations, I'd like to know how much range I actually have, so I can plan accordingly. Having an extra 10 miles (is it 10?) of "reserved" range may not do much good if there isn't a charging station within that distance, so I basically have to discount that extra reserve and plan based on the rated range the car is reporting anyway. (On trips, I always plan a minimum 10% buffer, usually more, and keep an eye on wh/mi and projected range.)
I do realize that as the car becomes more mainstream it probably does make more sense for the reporting to behave like ICE gas gauges... but then again, I'm also the geeky guy who keeps a close eye on the stats on trips, and makes spreadsheets to track estimated usage vs. actual usage, yadda yadda. Most owners won't go anywhere near that level of dorkiness, for sure...
- - - Updated - - -
Actually, shortly after pulling out of the driveway, the car started reporting 252 rated miles... better, but still not the 260-263 we were getting on a 100% charge with v4.5.�
Nov 25, 2013
qwk I never understood this(reminds me of people setting their clocks 15 minutes later in order to be on time). Zero should mean zero, not 20.�
Nov 25, 2013
Al Sherman It never works with my wife.:smile:
FWIW, I've been at 65% ever since we got the slider. Pre 5.8 I got 160+/- 1 rated at charge completion. Post 5.8 I'm getting 153+/- 1. Definitely not the pack. It wouldn't change that much overnight coincidental with upgrading to 5.8.�
Nov 25, 2013
qwk I agree.
Mine went from around 230-232 on FW 4.5(.61) to 227 rated miles at 90% instantly when I loaded FW 5.8(.24).�
Nov 25, 2013
rlang59 Agreed and very well put.�
Nov 25, 2013
jerry33 You really should never get anywhere near zero on a road trip either. Having taken a few (no Superchargers), you just plan your route around RV parks (unless your lucky enough to live where there are 80 amp J1772 EVSEs) at about 150 miles apart. The Model S is a great road trip car.�
Nov 25, 2013
brianman Sorry. That analogy doesn't make much sense to me.
�
Nov 26, 2013
rlang59 I'm sorry since it seemed like a pretty simple analogy to me.�
Nov 26, 2013
yobigd20 Whoops! I accidentally left max range on (used it to pre-warm up battery for 30 minutes from 80% yesterday). So it's probably been sitting at full charge for about 7-8 hours.
Showing 255 miles. 31,300 miles. This is my first max range on v5.8
�
Nov 26, 2013
FredTMC oops, I haven't made that mistake yet (I think). That's decent range for 30k mi. Thanks for posting�
Nov 26, 2013
mknox Did a Standard (90%) charge last night and got 215 Rated Miles. My car has a bit over 16,000 miles on it, and I'm on v5.8.�
Nov 26, 2013
Cottonwood Interesting. I am getting 255 miles on a range charge with 5.6, 11,000 miles, and 14 months on my Model S.
To avoid the 100% event that you just had, here is the trick that I use. Just as you did, set the charge limit on the slider to 80%. When you are ready to pre-warm, use the App to start "max range" charging. Next, reset the charging back to "standard." This sets the charging limit to 90%, and you will not go to 100% by accident.�
Nov 26, 2013
SFOTurtle Would like to know what numbers new 60 owners are seeing on 5.8 for any who have done range/100% charges. Wouldn't seem to be that hard to find this out.�
Nov 26, 2013
Doug_G I'm getting 350 km Rated on a 90% charge. My car has 19,000 km on it and I'm on v5.8.
That's 219 miles and 12,000 miles for Americans and other throwbacks. :wink::biggrin:�
Nov 26, 2013
clea I'm getting 366 km Rated on a 90% charge. My car has 16K km on it and it's running 5.8.�
Nov 27, 2013
mcornwell Just to add to the data points:
I just passed 14,000 miles over 11 months with my P85:
90% charges on 5.8 show 221 miles
I did a 100% charge, and didn't have time to let it balance the pack, I unplugged when it was calculating the remaining time at 100%, and I was at 252 miles.
It stayed at 252 miles for the first 6 miles of my trip home, which were at just under 300 w/mile.
After my 22.9 mile trip home, my car is now showing 235 miles of rated range, 94.6% charged, 71.6 kWh remaining. Numbers seem a little odd, 22.9/.054 = more than 425 miles in theory.
On an unrelated note, even with limited regen for the first 1/2 of the trip home (line disappeared, but regen was limited to about 30kW even after more than 10 miles of driving, my brake lights were not even coming on under full deceleration), I averaged 265 w/mile, which is a record for me. Not bad for a P85 on 21's...�
Nov 29, 2013
rlawson4 27396 Miles. I did a range charge today. 254.6 Rated (from Visible Tesla), 288.9 Ideal. My standard charge yesterday was at 223. I am very pleased.�
Nov 30, 2013
islandbayy 16,000 miles, under 6 months ownership.
Standard 90% charge = 169-174 average
Range 100% Charge = 189-192 miles
Temperature = 32* F�
Nov 30, 2013
xray Over 17000 miles in approximately 8 months.
About 1 week ago had main battery pack failure. The day before the failure I had done a range charge on 5.8 that showed about 248 rated miles. I then had the failure and the main battery pack was replaced. The new battery pack then showed max range charge to 267 on the following day. I haven't read many of the threads but I doubt Tesla messed to much with the top range of the pack. I had definitely noticed a gradual drop in max range capacity over the course of the 17000 miles driven.
By the way, 267 rated miles was the most I got on a range charge on the original battery pack when it was new. I'll post screen captures when I get the chance particularly if people are interested�
Nov 30, 2013
J in MN Here is a chart that some may be interested in. It shows a charge from 18% SOC to 100% followed by a discharge of 54.0 kWh to 7% SOC (0 miles rated range), and then charge back to 20% SOC.
There is a good 9 to 10 miles difference in the rated range at 18% SOC between the first charge and discharge curve. Without being able to measure pack temperature directly, I cannot know this for certain, but I still think pack temperature is the primary factor.
Oh, I should add that this is a 60 kWh battery at 6 months and 6000 miles.
- - - Updated - - -
Well, that's a good data point, because we can control better for temperature. Do you remember what the dates were so I can lookup the temperatures?�
Nov 30, 2013
efusco Did my first Max Range charge since 5.6 & 5.8 and the first in a few months. 250 miles. Quite a drop from the 272 I started at. I have 22k miles in this pack.�
Nov 30, 2013
Cool-Model S I did two max range charges at Woodbury supercharger after my 5.8 upload. Both times I didn't get over 248 miles.
As soon as I started driving, lost 5 miles of charge in less than 2 miles - standard (no high speed) starting and on freeway soon.
Drove 32 miles and lost 45 miles of charge.
I have 10,035 miles in 9 months. I used to get 280miles at max range charge just couple,of months ago.�
Nov 30, 2013
capt601 You must have ideal range selected and not rated?? As 280 was never possible under rated. And is the 248 rated now or did you leave it on ideal?
- - - Updated - - -
You must have ideal range selected and not rated?? As 280 was never possible under rated. And is the 248 rated now or did you leave it on ideal?�
Nov 30, 2013
bluetinc When my car was new, I was at 275 rated. I have heard of others that saw 275-280 rated, when new. Ideal when new should be a good bit over 300.
Peter
�
Dec 1, 2013
Cool-Model S I am sure it was on rated.�
Dec 1, 2013
mknox Did a Range Charge yesterday... the first ever on my car which has just under 17,000 miles. I got 246 Rated Miles.
Last July, I was doing a Range Charge, but had to abort and be on my way. When I unplugged, I was at 260 Rated Miles.
Quite a drop for me. I used to get 241 miles on a Standard Charge not so long ago.�
Dec 1, 2013
The Fury I called Tesla service as I had been getting 244 Rated on a max charge and since 5.8 I am now getting 233.( and this is with battery saving mode). I called as I went on a 55 mile trip on Thanksgiving, stopped a few times on my way home at friend's houses along the way, and when I got home I had 32 miles remaining. I calculated that I only traveled about 120 actual miles that day. I seemed to have lost about 62 miles in the trip due to speed of 74mph travel, low outside temperature, heater on, and battery pack warming. These numbers were not this drastic before 5.8.
I have 26k miles on my car, (60) thus I watch my milage and charging patterns.
The Tesla service agent mentioned that the matrices was different in 5.8 and was a more accurate calculation and the reduced Rated mileage after full charge was due to these new driving calculations. To be honest I have been driving more in the 74mph range lately, so I am deciding to bring down my regular driving speed to see if there is a dramatic change in the calculations thus milage usage.
I will report findings as I was also use to the 244 full charge and use on this exact same trip, but would have about 70 miles left whe I returned home. 70 down to 32 is a concern to me.�
Dec 1, 2013
dmckinstry I think I did my first max range charge after a little less than 1900 miles. Ideal miles showed 308 miles and it was still charging. IIRC the rated range was about 272 miles, but could have been higher.
My last showed 296 miles after about 7500 miles. I don't know how relevant it is, but the weather is a lot colder now. I'll do another range charge tomorrow before heading to Ellensburg. I'll also do a max charge in Ellensburg before heading to Centralia.
I haven't gotten a clear answer from anyone yet. Would it hurt or help to let it set an hour or two at max range before starting out?
I've always started out within 10 or 15 minute whenever max charging in the past. If you're trying to do a pack balance at full charge, how long does it take?�
Dec 1, 2013
SFOTurtle So you went from 248 to 267 with the new pack. Ambient temps were basically unchanged. The only explanation is there was a new battery pack. Other than degradation, what explanation would there be for the drop (I'm aware there was a pack failure, but there are a lot of other folks who have seen numbers in this vicinity who had not had their packs replaced).�
Dec 2, 2013
Kraken I saw a car with 274 that had over 10000 miles. Mine has 7500 (6500 last week), and a range charge is only 254 and has never been more than 262. I wonder how much the difference with p85+ and 21 inch wheels is calculated in. For whatever it's worth, the actual projected value was spot on when driving 55 in range mode.�
Dec 3, 2013
mnx I haven't done a range charge since the summer. But my 90% charge is coming in @ 356km or 221 miles. I have ~17,500km (10850miles) on the car.
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Dec 3, 2013
mknox I'm currently getting about 215 Miles on a 90% charge. Just about to turn to 18,000 miles.�
Dec 3, 2013
captain_zap My experience with our P85 has been that when I do a deep discharge (<30 miles remaining) followed by a normal (for me 80%) charge, some "lost" miles are recovered. In the most recent example, last week my 80% charge increased from 200 to 205 miles after a deep discharge. Could be due to either string balancing or perhaps just a good recalibration of the pack capacity that happens when discharged more deeply than usual.�
Dec 7, 2013
rlawson4 Tonight I took the car down to a rated range of 8 miles. When I signed onto VisibleTesta there was 11% of the battery left. It seems pretty clear that instead of a decrease in range they are just hiding some more reserve below 0 miles rated range. Assuming that 11% was about 8 Kwh of battery, I would have driven about 24-30 miles. That would equate to 16-22 miles below zero. I am not recommending that anyone do that, I am just reporting my experience.�
Dec 8, 2013
yobigd20 This is the kind of actual data I was looking for to confirm what myself and others have suspected since we have taken the car down close to 0 yet the slider bar still shows what seems to be about 10% remaining.
Unfortunately, I don't think that 10% remaining translates to 10% "drivable" remaining range past 0. I believe part of that 10% is the "zero-mile drivable buffer" followed by a completely unusable (to us) amount of battery left that Tesla reserves to protect against battery bricking.
An illustration of this here:
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Dec 8, 2013
bluetinc All,
I only have partial data right now because of the cold. I can not assure that the difference in pack voltage vs. rated miles at 0 is not related to the cold weather (~30F outside temps) where as all my testing data has been in the 60-70F range. Currently at 30F outside temps the 0 rated miles point seems to be raised from software versions 4.5->5.8 by about 4mV per cell on the bottom of the cycle (the top of the pack (max full) looks to be unchanged. Without the exact datasheet for Tesla's battery cell, it's a little harder to attach this to an exact amount of energy storage, but using similar Panasonic batteries as guidelines, this is equal to just over 1% of true manufacturers (Panasonic) rated pack capacity. Roll of of this up, and this would be a shifting of 4 more miles below 0 from above. Again I'll have to check this again when the weather warms.
Could you be more clear on your suggestion? Are you saying all of our apparent degradation over the life of our cars is from them shifting miles to below 0? Just from 5.8? I can assure you that I have been watching this since my car was new, a year ago, and this is the first time I have seen any movement of "0" since it was new.
Peter�
Dec 8, 2013
Cal1 I've noticed that in our three months of ownership that our fully charged range varied each morning. Sometimes it would be 227 miles, sometimes 334, sometimes 219. I wondered about the variation but never bothered to investigate further. Other posts have stressed the need to "shore preheat" the cabin before winter driving particularly when really cold weather hits. We're in the NW and like most of the US, temps have plummeted to the low teens.
A few days ago I noticed that the fully charged range was 217. This seemed particularly low but it has been really cold. The car had been plugged in all night but finished charging hours ago. I do not have a delayed charge time set. It just starts charging when I plug in. The car was still plugged in and I started preheating the cabin. As we unplugged the car to leave (about an half hour later) I noticed that the range had increased to 220 miles. Clearly preheating had caused the charge cycle to begin again. I know the sleep mode drains power but I've not been able to find any reference indicating at what point (range, volts, amps, watts) a recharge cycle will kick in again to bring the car back up to full charge. Is my fully charged range varying based on how long since the last charge? I'd like this expressed in miles, not volts or amps or even KWs. The longest I've left our car plugged in is 24 hrs. Never thought to monitor to see if it was charging after the initial plug in.
Amazing that a car so dependent on current does not have an amp meter or volt meter anywhere to be found.�
Dec 8, 2013
rlawson4 I think Yobigd20 makes a good point. I have no idea how much of the remaining battery is available below the rated "0." What I have noticed is that there appears to be a reserve below zero that has increased from when my car was new. Even. the battery meter now appears to show some capacity when there would not have been when my car was new. I took the car to 3 rated miles 10 months ago. The battery meter showed nothing.�
Dec 8, 2013
gaswalla All these theories are very interesting but the fact is that a new car (or new battery) in the same weather with the same firmware will consistently show 10-20 more miles of range at 90+% charge as compared to a vehicle with 20k-ish miles.�
Dec 8, 2013
Zextraterrestrial @ cal1 . i don't think the S will top off when you preheat it. You are probably seeing the battery temperature raise and therefore mileage go from 217 to 220.
About the range below 0. there is definitely a bigger bottom buffer now than in early firmware. I had 0 miles remaining on 4.o with the bar below 1/10
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Dec 8, 2013
Cal1 Left home this morning with only 171 mile range. Forgot to plug in last night. It's 23degrees and preheating the cabin without being connected to a wall socket cost me almost 7 miles of range. As we left the house the dashed line came on indicating battery heating-lower regen etc. This went away after a few miles. It does return after every stop of any duration. I'm wondering how this thing is going to fair shopping in the winter. This is my first winter. This could be not good if it's going to have to rewarm both the cabin and the battery with every stop.�
Dec 8, 2013
SFOTurtle Exactly. That's why I'm looking for new 60 owners to report what they see at 100% charge. I'm suspecting it will be 208 or thereabouts, which will be considerably higher than those of us who took delivery earlier this year and have some miles on them.�
Dec 8, 2013
islandbayy Correct, as the battery heats, the range will in crease. See my Video on this, watch my range go up as the pack heats, yes it is plugged in, though not charging.
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Dec 8, 2013
yobigd20 Kinda hard to see on my phone as it was too shaky but halfway through it switched to "charging" and then the miles started going up. Soooo.... didn't see what u were talking about with the heating.�
Dec 9, 2013
bluetinc Are you sure that your battery meter showed nothing? I have pictures from a year ago in my car, with a range of 1 mile, and a battery showing exactly what all these pictures show, a SOC of 5% +/-, and that was back running 4.0. Since then I've been at 3 rated miles a few times and always seen similar indications of about 5% give or take.
Peter
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Dec 9, 2013
get_amped Had my car for almost three months. 100% charge with firmware version 5.8 gives me 208 miles. It used to be 215 with version 5.6. 90% charge used to be 182 with version 5.6. Today it was 178 though it has been cooler the last week so that I'm sure plays into it. With temperatures above 60 I expect 90% charge to yield 180-181.�
Dec 11, 2013
Eggplant FWIW--
I've been collecting one minute data on my car since August. Since 5.8, I will often see rated and ideal range jump up sharply 3-5 miles after sitting idle for some period of time after a charge. This is sitting in my garage. No significant temp changes, no SOC changes. Just an apparent recalculation on the rated and ideal ranges. I've seen this as quickly as about 15 minutes after charge complete and as long as two hours after.
Just this evening at 50% SOC, range jumped from 113 to 116, and 129 to 132 15 minutes after charge complete.�
Dec 13, 2013
bluetinc Eggplant,
When you say charge complete, do you mean the end of standard charging, or after a balance cycle that follows standard charging? I've seen mine recalculate ranges at the end of a balance cycle which can take hours in some cases.
Peter
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Dec 13, 2013
Eggplant I mean standard charging. In my example, this was a 50% standard charge.�
Dec 15, 2013
rlawson4 I pushed my luck tonight and drive about 3 miles after reaching a rated range of "0." When I signed onto visibletesla at home, I was at 7%.
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Dec 16, 2013
SFOTurtle Last night charged to 90% with temp in my garage in mid-40s or thereabouts. Rated miles were 167, although it was probably 30-45 minutes or so after charging stopped.�
Dec 16, 2013
islandbayy Per Visual Tesla, I had mine down to 4% a week ago. Acceleration Limiter was at 30kW on the car.�
Dec 16, 2013
scaesare From what I've seen reported as the likely battery reserve limit... I have to suspect you were darn close to it.�
Dec 16, 2013
SFOTurtle What exactly do you mean recalculate at the end of a balance cycle? Do you mean charging to 100%?�
Dec 16, 2013
jerry33 At the very end of a range charge the BMS tries to balance the pack. It can take a very long time for that "last minute" to finish. Sometimes it displays "1 minute remaining" and other times "recalculating". I've had it take an hour to finish that last minute. If possible, it's a good idea to let it finish. However, that's not always possible due to time constraints.�
Dec 16, 2013
Benjamin Brooks If 1% ~ 2.5 rated miles, shoulda tried driving another 15 miles...�
Dec 16, 2013
rlawson4 I was nervous because my wife would not not been a good sport about being stranded.�
Dec 17, 2013
tdiggity We had a test drive event in downtown Palo Alto, and I was able to see how their batteries were doing.
P85+, ver 5.8, 5,000 miles - 262 RATED miles (double checked settings that it was set to rated miles, vehicle was driven from Palo Alto service center, which is a couple miles away, so it probably gets 265 miles displayed).
One conclusion you can draw is that 100% full range charge on 5.8 (or any version now) should get 265 miles if there isn't any degradation. Unless these cars are different, they aren't 'hiding' any range when fully charged.
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Dec 17, 2013
JohnQ Just crossed 10k miles on Sunday. Getting 252 rated on a range charge.�
Dec 17, 2013
yobigd20 that's assuming of course the battery pack is fully balanced perfectly. if you've done nothing but charge via 12A 120V every day for months, that's the best way to make sure the battery pack is balanced perfectly. (though charging at that rate its not exactly efficient in terms of power from the wall to the car.) so if you charge daily at 80A and supercharge every weekend, you're battery might not have any degredation at all yet might show something like 252 max rated miles. this doesn't translate to battery degredation whatsoever. again this is because the packs are not balanced. the higher the rate you charge, the harder it is for the battery management system to keep the packs in balance. as soon as the first cell in a pack reaches it's charge level, all the cells stop charging for that pack regardless of what their charge level is. but if you charge slower, the battery management system does a more efficient job at keeping the individual cells in balance with each other. so if you change to 12A 120V for a few months, you'll slowly creep back up from 252 to 265 rated miles.�
Dec 17, 2013
tdiggity true true, no arguments here. This test drive vehicle is a service loaner that has twin chargers and gets charged via a hwpc in the service center's parking lot (there are 5 hwpc's). They didn't give me the impression that they do anything different to go easy on the battery. There's another event tomorrow, so I will ask them if they do anything special when charging their service and test drive vehicles.�
Dec 17, 2013
Aussie I am driving a loaner vehicle at the moment and charged it at the local supercharger. It has the same configuration and firmware as my car, the main difference is that I am at 10k miles and the loaner at 3k.
When I charge to the maximum of "trip range" I get about 227 miles. The loaner got 233 miles. So in a direct comparison I have lost 6 miles or maybe 7-8 miles on a range charge. Not insignificant. If (big if) this continues at this pace I will be at about 225 miles of rated max range at the end of the warranty period.�
Dec 18, 2013
bluetinc Aussie,
I take that you mean top of your standard range (90%), not top of trip range (100%).
To keep expectations in perspective, if you have lost 6 range miles in 10k miles, then at that rate you would be at a loss of 60 miles in 100K miles, or 60/265, or about 22%. This is just about inline with where expectations should be. Also note that Li-Ion batteries lose a greater amount of capacity during the first charge cycles than the last, and so it would be reasonable to expect to see degradation slow down.
Peter
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Dec 18, 2013
Aussie I lost 6 miles and 90% so about 7 miles at 100%. At 100k miles it would be 70 miles out of 265 = 26%. So basically I would hope that my that time I can put a new 100KW/h battery back in.�
Dec 19, 2013
bwilliams I just ordered my MS - this particular thread is making me 'gulp'. Is there an indicator of battery capacity/degradation? I own a leaf which has a battery capacity level gauge. Using the mileage after charging would not be a good indicator of the condition of the battery since the mileage varies a lot from charge to charge and is calculated, I believe, on your previous trip. Is the MS estimated mileage consistent from charge to charge independent of your last trip? Even if it is, is there a more direct way of measuring the battery's degradation?�
Dec 19, 2013
gaswalla Unlike the leafs gom, the model s shows rated miles or ideal miles that are not dependent upon personal driving style. You can use ideal miles as a meter of battery health.. You can also run the battery to zero and measure the kilowatts to full charge. Much much better system than the leaf, but the software changes keep the degradation issue a moving target in the Model S - I believe that is by design.�
Dec 19, 2013
FredTMC I've had the car a long time now and I firmly feel that the cars stated "rated range" after full charges (i.e. 90% & 100% trip charge) is a decent measure of remaining battery capacity. Hence this thread that owners use to compare how their range is decreasing over time.
In my case, my range has decreased 8 miles after 20k mi. I'm expecting the range will decline around 5 miles over the next 20k mi since initially the battery loses range faster and then slows down with more mileage.
My expectation is that after 100k miles, I'll have ~90% of its initial range. I baby my battery. We will see�
Dec 19, 2013
SFOTurtle That's the irony here, isn't it? Loaners at the service centers pretty much charge *only* on HPWC at high amps, yet the one you had (and the one I drove a couple months ago with about 2K miles on it) is showing *better* numbers than your car charging at lower amps. With the exception of a dozen or so trips to the Supercharger over the past 11 months, I also baby my battery with very few deep cycles and low amp (240/6A or 12A). I don't think it has made any difference. The high rated range numbers seen by the loaners certainly casts doubt to all of the posts saying that slow amp charging will rebalance the battery pack.�
Dec 20, 2013
wraithnot Did my first range charge in a while. It finished at 259.32 rated miles (as per the REST node script). I have 19,891 miles on the car. A 2% loss from the 265 mile spec after almost 20k miles seems pretty reasonable to me.�
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