Sep 27, 2014
Super Gizmo I agree with you 100%. I have twice written to Jerome and got responses from him. I posted one response on both the forums. His responses are basically this - They are working on new algorithms to correctly predict the range and that there is nothing wrong with the batteries. As to my question "why some owners cars show different readings under similar charging circumstances" there was no answer.�
Sep 27, 2014
AmpedRealtor Count me in. I'm 16XXX and also delivered 8/13. My range display dropped from 301 to 292 ideal miles in the last 6 months.�
Sep 27, 2014
smartypnz Strangest thing - this morning I awoke with 4 Notifications on the iPhone
- Charging completed at 1:36 am with battery at 228 mi rcvd at 1:36
- Charging completed at 1:54 am with battery at 228 mi rcvd at 1:54
- Charging completed at 1:58 am with battery at 228 mi rcvd at 1:58
- Charging completed at 1:59 am with battery at 228 mi rcvd at 1:59
Anyway that's 90%
100% has been getting 253 - 257
Apr 2013 38,500 miles A pack No pampering. No intentional Balancing attempts. Lots of Range charges. Countless SC's. Saw a slight change after one of the software updates. When charging at home on our 14-50, tone it down to 30 Amps.
No complaints�
Sep 28, 2014
MassX1317 I charged to 90% this morning, completed around 8-9am and got 231, didn't end up using the car until 4pm and it only had 225 miles left. Usually I would leave the car at 50% for the weekend but I'm trying to use the 90% charging technique to display more miles. I have the energy saving mode turned on. I also tried to stay on track with rates miles the other, stayed around 295wh/mi and drove a few less miles than rated miles lost. What am I doing wrong?�
Sep 28, 2014
brianman I'm not understanding the problem that leads to the question. Can you elaborate?�
Sep 28, 2014
MassX1317 Why am I getting vampire drain of nearly 1 mile per hour? The car was plugged in during this time. Just checked again and I've lost 4 miles in the past 2 hours.
Why am I not getting rated range (on a single trip from point A to point B) if I'm driving at 295 wh/mi? I can't remember exactly how far I drove but it was something like 15 miles there and I used 18 miles of rates range at 295 wh/mi.
I am thinking I must have something wrong in the settings but I checked energy savings mode and it's on.
I will also throw in, is it unusual I'm getting a full range charge of around 257-258 on a car that is 5 months old? I try to keep the battery at 50% overnight.�
Sep 28, 2014
jerry33 1. The miles remaining is a kind of estimate. It's not 100% accurate, especially at the top and bottom ends.
2. You aren't allowed to use the full battery pack's capacity so you won't necessarily get full rated range. A better determination is to divide the pack capacity by your Wh/mi average.
3. Not unusual to get those kind of numbers. Keeping the battery at 50% will cause it to go out of balance and give numbers based on the lowest cell/module.�
Sep 28, 2014
MassX1317 Thanks Jerry�
Sep 29, 2014
mknox I have had that for quite some time now, over various firmware versions. I do keep the Energy Savings features on (and they work based on waiting for the screens to start in the car and the "Waking Car" messages on the app). It's even more obvious with the smartphone notifications now because it will show me how many miles the car had when it completed overnight compared to what it says in the morning. Usually a few miles less.
One other thing I've never seen is the so-called "hold" on the rated range miles when you first start out. Mine will start dropping miles immediately as I head away from my house.�
Sep 29, 2014
Todd Burch One thing that should also be mentioned: If you keep checking on the car to see how much energy has been used, you keep waking it up...which means it can't sleep and save energy. It takes another 30 minutes or so (something like that) to go back to sleep.�
Sep 29, 2014
apacheguy @MassX, @mknox - You need to do a long press (40 s hold) hard reboot. What you are seeing is NOT normal behavior for sleep mode enabled. Do you have a logger app that is watching when the car awakens and when it sleeps?
My logger pings the car every 30 mins and it sleeps just fine.�
Sep 29, 2014
mknox No logger... and I don't log in and check, waking the car, from time to time either. I just will note the difference when I go out to the car. Easier now because the app tells you when charging stopped along with the time and rated miles. If it stops at, say, 5 am, I will usually have at least 2 fewer miles when I leave at 7:30. It's been like this as long as I can recall. I've done re-boots periodically including a long re-boot after 6.0 came down a week or two ago.
I know the car is sleeping properly because I will get the "Systems Starting Up" message on the dash, the "Waking Car" message on the mobile app and the "Your Tesla is Sleeping Peacefully" message on VisibleTesla if I happen to do any of these things.�
Sep 29, 2014
Todd Burch Well it depends how he's checking the car. If he's opening the door and checking the console, that will fully wake up the car. If he's checking via the smartphone app, last I checked that wakes up the car.�
Sep 29, 2014
tezco I'm doing the exact opposite of most of this. The 100% charge on my Nov 2012 A pack a couple of days ago was still at 257 rated, right before a trip up Trail Ridge Road. I quit charging to 90% when the slider appeared. Now I leave the car at 50% and charge to around 80% right before trips to Denver. Usually get back home at about 50%. I charge at 30A due to tiny wires going to the garage and have only gone to 100% 3 or 4 times. If I'm not driving for awhile I plug the car in about once a week to bring it back up to 50%.�
Sep 30, 2014
hans More like 10-12 minutes for the car to fall asleep again. Never 30 minutes unless it's charging the 12V battery or doing something else. I have done a lot of testing on this for my REST API apps. There are also ways to check if the car is asleep without waking it but you need to be a programmer to do it.�
Sep 30, 2014
Vger On my current road trip, I had occasion to do my first two range charges since the 6.0 upgrade. Much to my surprise (and delight?) I am once again getting to 270 (actually 271 on the first one)!!! I have not seen that level since the first few months of ownership. :biggrin:
The first range charge was on a 30A J1772 charger in Coeur D'Alene, ID. The second was at the Albert Lea supercharger before heading into the hinterland of Iowa.
Each time I carefully checked the numbers as I drew down the pack to make sure that there was no sudden accelerated adjustment. There was none. Everything added up.
How can this be? Anyone else seeing this?�
Sep 30, 2014
amp-on Hi All
P04238 P85 Blue 34.8K miles Just installed 6.0 and was able to get 255 rated miles.
regards,
Dan�
Sep 30, 2014
AmpedRealtor No change to my range estimate under 6.0. On advice of local service, I have started charging to 90% (was previously charging to 50%-70%) and the numbers are the same as they have been under 5.12. I have not yet max charged under 6.0.�
Sep 30, 2014
omarsultan I seem to have lost a couple of miles or range at max charge post v6, now around 260-262, but the 90% charge is still 232-235. This is on a July 2013 build with 36K miles, charge to 90% daily and max charge and SuperCharge at least once a week.�
Sep 30, 2014
scaesare One reason I don't get too worked up over small reported range variation:
I've been consistently getting 147 (@ 60% charge) miles for several months. A few days ago it jumped to 148. Then it dropped to 146 yesterday. Today it's back at 147.
A mile or two represents less than 1% variation... nothing to worry about.�
Sep 30, 2014
tdiggity Just took a road trip with Superchargers and saw an increase in range.
Previous range:
90%: 221-222
100%: 244
Today's range:
90%: 228
100%: 250
20,000 miles
Some notes:
- I had been charging to 90% for the past 2 months, and did not see an increase in range, and even one road trip, no increase on v5.x
- Superchargers filled me up from 20-->180miles. 3 Superchargers used to get to my destination and 3 going back home.
- Charging at the hotel first night = 248 miles
- Charging at the hotel 2nd night = 250 miles
I wish that Tesla did balancing at any charge level. Something along the lines of "if the charge level hasn't changed for 7 days, then do balancing." As some have said, if the miles aren't there, then they are useless to the driver. If I need to take a road trip tomorrow, i'd like that to know that I can use all the available power.�
Sep 30, 2014
AmpedRealtor I'm not sure if it's a balancing issue, it may be more of an algorithm calibration issue. When you charge to 100% and run the car down to a low SOC, the algorithm more accurately estimates the battery storage endpoints and gives you a more exact range count. This has nothing to do with balancing.�
Sep 30, 2014
Super Gizmo That is consistent with what Jerome's reply was to my email.�
Sep 30, 2014
tdiggity Well, however you want to classify it, I'm saying that my range did not improve when I was on ver5.X. But, it did on v6.0�
Sep 30, 2014
mknox Not even close. You've got an early car with an A-pack as well, right? I'm getting 215 at 90% and about 238 at 100%. I never saw anything above 260 to 265 even when the car was new! I have 34,440 miles on the odometer as of today.�
Sep 30, 2014
ecarfan That is odd. I had 263-265 when my S85 was new. Now have almost 17K miles and a range charge a few days ago showed 258. I have a B pack. Charge at home at 80A with my HPWC.�
Sep 30, 2014
tezco I'm nowhere near 270 rated @ 100% either, but I was at 292 ideal last Friday. I don't know what my S did when it was new 3 years ago since I only charged to 90% and I kept the display set on the old projected range (which went away with v4.0); however, according to the Software/Firmware Wiki for v1.9.11 (Sept 2012):
"The Rated Range estimate predicts the car's range based on standardized range metrics set by the EPA. When your Model S was delivered, the Rated Range was based on the EPA's 2-cycle test, which yields approximately 300 miles of range after fully charging in Max Range mode. With the new software release, Model S will begin using the EPA's more aggressive 5-cycle test to predict the Rated Range. After a full Max Range mode charge, your Model S will now display approximately 265 - 269 miles of Rated Range."
Edit (found an old post of mine from Mar 2013):
We also need to remember that the original standard charge was 92%:
Back then I got 278 [email�protected]% which would suggest I would have had about 302 ideal at 100%, so I'm down about 3% since the car was new 3 years ago.
�
Oct 1, 2014
Theshadows I've been driving all day and got a chance to run our pack down to 23 rated miles. Just finishing a Supercharger balancing charge and got 271 rated miles. On v 6.0 (1.65.15) D pack. 11 months of ownership 23k miles.
�
Oct 1, 2014
lloyds I'm currently at 27k and at the 80% level, I get 228-232.�
Oct 1, 2014
brianman Please clarify. What are the units on your last 2 numbers there. Rated miles? Ideal miles? Real kilometers?
�
Oct 1, 2014
BrandonF I am leaving on a road trip tomorrow so I range charged my MS60 for the 2nd time since I received it around 4 months and 7,000 miles ago. To my disappointment, my max range charge is now only 194 which is down from 198 the first time I range charged and 204 when it was delivered with a full range charge. At what point do I need to be worried about problems with my battery?�
Oct 1, 2014
tdiggity This may be known already, but I had range mode on and had 200 rated miles displayed. When I switched range mode off, the rated miles changed to 198 right away.
Also tried this again and was able to reproduce.�
Oct 2, 2014
rlang59 Yes, this has been observed and reported in this thread. Turning on range mode seems to add 2-4 miles rated range.�
Oct 2, 2014
tomas If you are the type of person who likes to worry, then you should start worrying immediately because you are a worrier and you enjoy it. If you are concerned about your battery, suggest you read 10 or 20 pages of this thread and I'll bet you chill. I'm not gonna digest it for you but it's all been said and there's really very little degradation. Balancing and calibration and maybe a little (expected) loss of capacity. Read!�
Oct 2, 2014
dalamchops My MS60 has 4800mi and charges to 181-182 on 90%, last time i range charged was 209mi�
Oct 2, 2014
BrandonF I am not a worry-er by nature, but it is hard to see my rate range continue to drop especially when I need as many miles as possible. It is just alarming to see 194 as a max # when 4 months ago it was 204. I didnt read all 1,600 posts in this thread so there may be a perfectly reasonable explanation. My frustration is that I have to read through 1,600+ posts in a forum to figure out how to get educated on the best way to maximize range. It seems like Tesla could publish a white paper or a specific set of guidelines to specifically lay out battery charging and range estimate calculations.�
Oct 2, 2014
mknox I would characterize myself similarly. For me, it was/is more of a curiosity. My big dip seemed to happen after I started using the slider to charge to 70% and deplete to about 30% daily. This seems to be the "preferred" methodology for babying the battery. Over the past week or two, I've reverted to 90% charging daily and have seen an improvement of 1 or 2 rated miles at the 90% mark. I think 90% is still "safe" and will stick with it for a bit just to see what happens.�
Oct 2, 2014
glhs272 To summarize those 1,600 posts, your battery is likely slightly out of balance because you must have been doing a lot of charging below 90%. To restore this loss of range, balance your battery by charging to 90% or greater, regularly. You begin to see an improvement over a few charging cycles.�
Oct 2, 2014
Pilot_51 Once I understood that imbalance was the cause of my range loss, I've shifted from mild concern to curiosity in how much range I'll ultimately lose while maintaining a charge between 80% and 45%. I'm currently at 152 rated miles (about 11 miles lost) at 80% after three and a half months. Since I only drive 45 miles a day and have no plans for long trips any time soon, the lost range doesn't bother me.�
Oct 2, 2014
FredTMC Question about 90% "balancing" method: I've never witnessed the trickle charge "solid green ring of light" at the charge port that you get when doing a 100% range charge. Does this happen during a 90% charge?�
Oct 2, 2014
glhs272 I wonder, would operating a battery pack out of balance for long periods cause permanent range degradation over the long term compared to a pack kept in balance all other things being equal? The thinking being that because some cells are operating consistently at higher voltage than other cells, they will wear unevenly. Either the higher voltage cells degrade faster because of the higher voltage or the lower voltage cells degrade faster due to higher current draw and thus being stressed more I don't know. And because the battery pack will only charge until the highest voltage cells reach their target voltage, the rest of the pack may be able to take more charge but can't because a few of them have "aged" faster than the others. Sort of the weakest link situation. Therefore a battery pack that is consistently balanced over it's lifetime will wear the cells more evenly, thus allowing more of the cells to reach full charge. Anyway, this is poorly explained but I think some of you might catch what I am saying, so what are your thoughts, bogus or a potential issue?
- - - Updated - - -
No, I don't see the trickle charge happen during a 90% charge. However, that doesn't mean it's not balancing. My understanding is balancing is occurring inside the battery at the BMB level, by bleeding off voltage to the cell groups that are higher than the rest. It doesn't need to be charging to balance. It just need to be at a high enough state of charge in order to accurately balance, thus if the state of charge is below 90% the software says "don't bother balancing".
Also, I will note that this is my "conjecture" based off what I have personally experienced and what I have seen inside the battery. This is not a fact and I don't want people to think that I have some special inside knowledge of Tesla's engineering. Although I will admit that I am an engineer professionally and mostly work in electro hydraulic control systems engineering and software.�
Oct 2, 2014
FredTMC Glhs... Thanks for your explanation. I figured it was part of this "shunting" that has been discussed...�
Oct 2, 2014
hans It shouldn't. That's why we see lower range because the higher cells are not allowed to go any higher than the normal maximum allowed voltage. If these cells were allowed to go to a higher voltage that would cause more permanent damage. That's my understanding at least.�
Oct 2, 2014
Vger Ahh, I guess that partially explains my recent 270 mi range charges; I have been running in range/Eco mode this whole trip, since the weather is moderate (both ways). Next time I do one on the way home, I will turn off range mode after the charge and see what is displayed.�
Oct 2, 2014
qwk Yes�
Oct 3, 2014
mknox Are you speaking of 270 Ideal or Rated miles? I always use (and speak of) Rated Miles and that might be part of my confusion. I believe your car has an A-pack battery like mine. I never saw anything above 265 Rated Miles when the car was new, but that would translate, I believe, to 300 Ideal Miles.�
Oct 3, 2014
Vger Rated miles. I did see 270 a few times when new, but again, that would have been with the Range/Eco setting in force. Without that, my original rated miles on a range charge would have been closer to 265. On Tuesday AM, I will do a range charge as I leave here and head to Chicago before head back west on I-90. I plan to check what the reading is in both Range/Eco and non-Range/Eco mode.
I think that the re-calibration that Tesla did with 5.9(?), combined with recent deep cycling on the road trip, combined with Range/Eco mode all together resulted in these recent eye-popping 100% charge numbers.
- - - Updated - - -
BTW, I always operate the car in the units of the country I am in, so while it is alway kms in Canada, since I am in the US for this trip, that is why I am reporting miles.�
Oct 3, 2014
tezco I wonder if the eco setting algorithm also adjusts the calculated rated range figure slightly, depending on the outside temperature? Does the ideal figure also vary at the same SOC, if eco is selected or deselected?�
Oct 3, 2014
RomainiacWV So as expected, the response I recieved was a bit generic regarding the battery from recent SC visit. Engineering said they looked at the battery and that the capacity was "normal". They did not give me a total capacity read.
I guess the most confusing thing is that they said I should return to "daily" charging as recommended in the owner's manual at 90%. They said to stop 60% charge and felt that the range would come back "in time". I have issue with this as I dont feel the manual explicitly tells you to charge at 90% does it?? I'll have to look later. I know the center console says to charge to "daily needs". When I addressed this with Sc they simply agreed, and said that they dont know why there is a descrepency.
In tongue and cheek, I was told to "follow Tesla engineers" advice and not "forum" advice. I am a medical provider and I do understand the frustration with patients self diagnosing online. However, I feel there is often alot more good advice on here than not.
The fact they want me to charge at 90% lends creedance to the "imbalance" theory but they would not commit to it and say that software still involved.
Going to be roadtripping the car and cycling the battery later this month several times. Going to give it through that period. If range loss continues or shows no significant improvement, plan to write a letter to Tesla, just asking they answer some basic questions on how to best care for this car. I will post again here and on Tesla forum if it comes to it. A bit frustrated but know that they will make it right in the end. Hoping I see some miraculous range recovery like others have with deep cycle.
Looking forward to next week, X res holder so hoping that is revealed but know that the III would make a huge splash�
Oct 3, 2014
tezco My manual says to set the charge limit anywhere between 50 and 90% for maximum battery longevity, so I'd trust the manual over the SC banter. I don't think that you damaged the battery by leaving it at 60%. I'm certainly not going to follow the advice of some forum members who advocate setting routine charging @ 100%.�
Oct 4, 2014
slyastro I just passed the 60 000 Miles mark (96 954 KM) with my Model S. With range mode ON, I get 362 KM (225 Miles) at 90% and 403 KM (250 Miles) at 100%.
My battery pack is the �A� version.�
Oct 4, 2014
AmpedRealtor I'm one of those people who has been charging as little as possible and have generally kept my car in the 50%-70% range. I've only max charged (100%) twice. The last time I max charged, it only went to 289 ideal miles. Since then, I've been keeping the car at 90% per the service center's advice after they checked my battery. After two weeks at 90%, I am now up to 296 ideal miles at 100% and rising. Even if it doesn't go above 296 ideal miles, that still reflects only a 1.3% degradation after 1 year and 13,000 miles. Not bad!
Use ideal miles to check your battery capacity, not rated miles. I have a B pack.�
Oct 4, 2014
jyc We've generally been charging on the low side for our vehicle, which now has 27,500 miles on a B pack.
Was down to 218 rated miles for a 90% charge, and then decided for the last 4 weeks, to charging up to 90% overnight. Slightly less charging during the day at work, and ran the pack down to 23 rated miles a few days ago and supercharged to 160 to get home. Since then 90% has increased 6 rated miles to 224 and still seems to be rising.
Seems reassuring that the battery isn't really all that degraded (even though I'm not using ideal miles as suggested by AmpedRealtor).�
Oct 4, 2014
brianman Ew. No thanks. If I'm going to go with fantasy coefficients, I want to use one that's at least closer to my actual usage.
That said, +1 to the request to have an option to replace every mi,km and mph/kph unit related to energy or power in the UI with kW or kWh, respectively.�
Oct 4, 2014
tomas Honest officer, I really did not know I was going 90! My car only reports kW!�
Oct 4, 2014
brianman Hence the qualifier. The speedometer isn't "related to energy or power" (at least not directly).�
Oct 4, 2014
AmpedRealtor Looking at ideal miles is a better way of determining what's really in your battery. Why? Because ideal range calculation has not been changed, but Tesla keeps tweaking the rated range algorithm as has been shown with the numbers changing after specific software updates. Tesla has also stated that the rated range algorithm has been changed a number of times to better estimate range in real world driving conditions. As such, it's not a good indicator of whether you have any battery degradation. It's a moving target.
Ideal mile calculation hasn't changed. Based on my latest numbers, I'm seeing 254 rated miles and 296 ideal miles. Based on ideal miles, if they don't rise over time, I've lost 1.3% capacity. Based on rated range, I've lost 4.2% capacity, or over 3x as much. It's not a good metric for determining battery loss, if any.�
Oct 4, 2014
nwdiver I've got a 'B' pack with ~55k miles on it... I've been getting ~245 miles rated range @ 100% SOC. I usually charge to ~160 miles for daily travel. I have noticed that when I charge to 100% SOC my range will sometimes stay at 246 for ~10 miles even though my 'since last charge' meter indicates I've used ~3kWh.�
Oct 4, 2014
AmpedRealtor What is your ideal range number at 100%?�
Oct 4, 2014
brianman So you have confidence that the rated calculation has changed but that ideal never will? Interesting.
- - - Updated - - -
We'll just have to (hopefully) agree to disagree here.
When I get, say, 200 miles of range per charge and metric A says I should be getting 221 and metric B says I should be getting > 250 then I like metric A better.
"What's really in your battery" is not of interest for this purpose.
And for the record, once again, Projected got it better than either Rated, Ideal, Typical, or anything else Tesla has done with my firmware since. I wish I could get Projected back on my instrument cluster, but Tesla owns all the cards here. I'm powerless in this regard.�
Oct 4, 2014
nwdiver I have no idea... is there a conversion from 246?�
Oct 4, 2014
David99 Just a few examples why looking at 'rated range' as a measure for battery degradation isn't working:
when my car was new it showed 271 miles at 100%, a few weeks later it only went up to 265 but didn't start counting down miles for the first few miles I drove. A few months later I starts to count down normal.
Last week I had 44 miles left, started driving very gently and it dropped down 7 miles of me driving only 3 miles.
Temperature and several other things are factored into the miles prediction the car shows.
As mentioned by Tesla, the battery gauge is a mathmatical model that considers a lot of things to make a best guess on how many miles you will be able to get. It is not a simple kWh measure. The algorithm has been adjusted and changed over the different firmware versions. It cannot be used as a gauge to tell battery aging.�
Oct 5, 2014
AmpedRealtor This thread is about battery degradation, not about providing you with a reliable range estimate. If battery degradation is your concern, ideal miles will provide you with the best estimate of your battery's capacity. If you don't believe me, contact Tesla and they will tell you. Or you can reference the many posts on this subject earlier in this thread or others. It's a well known fact that ideal range is the preferred metric to determine whether your battery capacity has changed.�
Oct 5, 2014
Gear No offense, but this thread is actually about decreasing rated range. It's the title of the thread.�
Oct 5, 2014
mknox Interesting about the Range setting. I hadn't considered that would make a difference. I'm going to have to play around with that and see what I get.�
Oct 5, 2014
Bighorn Range mode adds three miles to either my full rated (268 vs 265)or ideal range (311 vs 308) estimates at 34K miles/P85+
This was on 5.12--I haven't checked on 6.0�
Oct 6, 2014
AmpedRealtor No offense right back at you, but this is from the very first post of this thread:
Try not to let the boldface portion hit you in the face.
If my advice doesn't apply to you, skip it. No need to argue about it, right?
Posts like yours are why I spend more time at TM forums than here. The interactions are much more civil over there. Here, you get picked on for offering up information that might be helpful to others, even when that information relates directly to the question asked by the thread author. A little less hostility would be appreciated.�
Oct 6, 2014
brianman FWIW, your post came across far more hostile than Gear's.
And for the record, I think both our comments were on-topic.�
Oct 6, 2014
Kipernicus Reporting in some stats:
1yr, 9 months old, 24k miles, 60kWh "A" pack
100% rated range = 198 miles, range mode off
90% = 178 miles
ver 6.0
I generally charge to 90% and have a 16 mile round trip commute with 400ft up and 800ft down on the way to work.
Road trips are through superchargers (tahoe, LA) and have max charged about 15-20 times.�
Oct 7, 2014
pbrulott Reporting my stats:
1 year and 6 months, 60 kWh A pack
80% (150 miles vs 166 miles original)...
ver 6.0
Major drop in range happened after V5.6 and is constantly dropping. I range charge very rarely. And when I do, I don't see all the miles coming back but I see the strange behavior of charging continuing long after the estimate and mikles being capped. When I drive, the miles are not coming down right away but only after a few miles.
Tesla needs to fix this. This is freaking out all of us. One of the many things the Service Center will check on Thursday for me.�
Oct 7, 2014
mai My stats:
1 yr 8 months, 60 kWh A pack
90% 176 rated miles, range mode on
ver 5.12
I normally charge to 75% until 4 weeks ago when my 90% range fell to 172 miles - changed schedule to doing 90% charges twice a week and have recovered a mile of range each week. Will continue this routine for a few more weeks....�
Oct 7, 2014
tezco Mike: See what numbers you get with rated and ideal when you turn range on and off. I'm curious how linear the relationship between rated and ideal is. I always thought ideal was just the rated figure multiplied by a constant, that is, until I read Amped's note.
Bill�
Oct 7, 2014
dennis 285 Ideal miles after 100% charge.
23 months, 17.5K miles, 85 kwh 'A' pack
Normally charge to 90%, 12-15 100% charges
That would be a 5% loss of range in 2 years�
Oct 7, 2014
R�B Can someone point me to the SC charge time graph/table that I somehow stumbled onto a few days ago but can't find for the life of me....�
Oct 7, 2014
mknox Haven't tried it yet, but my question is this: Do you have to set the Range Mode on first, then charge or will you see a change in the car's display right as you toggle between Range and Normal?�
Oct 7, 2014
Bighorn You can see a difference if you toggle back and forth--may take part of a minute to recalculate.�
Oct 7, 2014
tezco I haven't tried it either, but Bighorn seems to know how that works. I've never kept track of both rated and ideal at various SOC's, so I'm curious how they behave re Amped's post. You do a lot more driving than I do, over a wider range of SOC's. My only driving today has been in front of a hay baler...�
Oct 7, 2014
golfski I have been toggling range mode on/off to see the difference in miles and to see what my ideal miles are at different levels (90, 80, etc..). I have notice that it always recalculates from On -> Off (loses 1-2 miles) but when toggling it back, it doesn't always recalculate. I am not sure if this is a bug and then hurts my rated range numbers - but it seems as though it sits at the lower value longer to accommodate.
I seemed to have lost a bit of range pretty quickly but switched to 80% charge level early on in ownership, which I assume means its pretty out of balance. At delivery, I got 191-193 miles @90% and got 213 @100% on a range charge that very first week. Since then, I have seen 90% drop to 178-180 and 199 @100%. I recently started charing back to 90% and did a range charge recently which only got to 199.
199 @100% Rated
179 @90% Rated
5 Range charges (213 -> 211 -> 207 -> 204 -> 199)
7200 mi / 4 months
60 kWh�
Oct 7, 2014
SFOTurtle My stats are very similar for my 60 kWh: 1 year, 9 months, 24.5k miles; 90% SOC - 176 or 177, range mode off; I haven't done a 100% charge since late August and was at 198 rated then; ver 6.0. My numbers have been very constant over the past several thousand miles and months.
- - - Updated - - -
Try charging to 90% consistently for a month and see if your numbers improve. I don't think your numbers are that much different than other 60 owners. Who is the "us" that is freaking out? Seems like a lot of 60 owners are reporting very similar numbers and that the numbers seem to be in a narrow range for those of us charging regularly to 90% SOC.�
Oct 8, 2014
islandbayy You guys are making me want my original 60kW pack back
34,000 miles and 1 year 2 months on my original pack I was still yielding 204+ miles easily on 100% rated, and 184+ on 90%
My replacement pack has 6,000 miles on it, and started at 211 when installed, at 2,500 miles it was down to 205ish and hovering around that point. my 90% charge on my replacement pack is still about 181-184.
My original pack had 150+ range/100% charges done. ~3x/week for 100%, though never left sitting at 100%, always used within 1 hour of charge completion.�
Oct 8, 2014
kennybobby Need the odometer reading too for this to mean anything.
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Odometer reading? Need to include that also.
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Here's some of y'alls reported data in a quick chart, someone can keep this on a spreadsheet and make pretty graphs if it helps.
It seems that there is a steeper decline at first that then levels out over time or over total distance travelled. Islands two packs have nearly equal ranges even though the odometer varies widely. The slopes seem to be the same no matter whether 100% or 90% charged. It's still more than twice the miles of any other electric car, OEM or DIY.
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Oct 8, 2014
dennis And I am seeing 252 rated miles and 285 ideal miles. Any explanation for the discrepancy?�
Oct 8, 2014
AmpedRealtor I really don't know, but we've had many threads and posts here confirming that ideal miles are the preferred metric for determining whether any degradation has occurred. I believe Tesla confirmed via email - someone posted it a long time ago - that while rated range has gone through several algorithm changes, ideal miles remain unchanged and is a simple straight line calculation of your battery's capacity divided by a fixed Wh/mi figure. I'm certainly not the expert on this, I'm simply reiterating what I've read here at TMC over the last year and how most have settled on ideal miles being the preferred metric.
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Gear and Brianman, I do apologize for the tone of my post from a couple of days ago. I didn't realize how it came off until I just re-read it. I was in a frazzled state of mind over several transactions that day and I'm sorry that it carried over into my post. I'm just trying to help and we are all here to share and absorb information. I didn't mean for my response to be aggressive like it was. My Tesla cap is in my hand.�
Oct 8, 2014
nleggatt I have 50k miles and max range charge rated is 198 miles�
Oct 8, 2014
mknox Okay, so here's what I'm seeing:
First off, I have resumed charging to 90% daily (from 70%) and am seeing 1 Rated mile per week increase. I've gone from 215 to 218 over the past 3 weeks or so.
I tried the Range Mode trick and saw 222 Rated Miles in Range and 218 Rated Miles in Normal mode at 90% SOC. I flipped over to Ideal and saw 251 Ideal Miles in Range mode and 248 Ideal Miles in Normal mode at 90% SOC.�
Oct 8, 2014
badgerlake I think you might see a big change with 1.67.28 version of 6.0. I did. I went from 208-210 rated miles @ 90% to 237.�
Oct 9, 2014
kennybobby That is a good data point that falls in line with the other 60 kWh batteries on the flat part of the odometer curve.
What is the age (months) of your car/battery pack?�
Oct 9, 2014
DriverOne 60kWh, 20K miles, 18 months => 199 mile range change. Standard charge yields 178�2 miles.�
Oct 9, 2014
tomas I wouldn't get too excited re jump. I experienced that with an update recently, rated went to about 272. Then it settled down to about 262. All @ 100% on p85 a pack. Also saw it go to 274 with .28 downloaded this am. I expect it will ebb like last time to 260s which is fine. Best hypothesis is that algorithm was reset to factory values and relearns you battery over a few charges.�
Oct 9, 2014
AZbba i picked up my car at the end of august - it is an inventory car with 6500 miles. In the DC it showed 90% charge and 240 rated miles. When I got home the next day and charged it to 90%, it showed 237. It has slowly dropped and now at almost 11k miles and 1.5 months later, it shows 231. For an 80% charge (which is what I usually do) it shows 207. Is this normal?�
Oct 9, 2014
mai Additional info: odo at 24k miles.�
Oct 9, 2014
tomas 1) Welcome!
2) This forum is a treasure. If you take the time to read back a few pages, you will see the answers to your question. If you've read perhaps 100 posts back and still have questions/concerns, I'd be happy to do chapter and verse if you send me PM.�
Oct 9, 2014
walla2 So, the range mystery continues. On 5.9/6.0, I had 252 rated miles at full charge on my refurbished A. The new 6.0 update got pushed last night and my overnight charging range charged even though my slider was at 90%. I got 260 miles at 99%. I drove for 2 miles and came back in. My 99% rated range went down to 240 while parked. I drove 2 miles and rebooted. 238. My degradation in rated range has gone from 3% per year to 5%. Note my car only has 9k miles so over 1% range loss per 1000 miles. At 100k miles, I'll be flintstoning this car. Love the car but not loving this decay rate if it is real.
Tesla really needs to tell customers about software changes that affect range and provide us direct access to SOC/battery data for our cars. I will have to call service about this new loss. It's 12 miles of loss in 1 day.�
Oct 10, 2014
mknox Nope. Got the update yesterday and this morning my 90% number was actually down 1 to 217 from 218 before.�
Oct 10, 2014
Benjamin Brooks I saw the same thing as badgerlake at first (rated miles shot up @ 90% SoC after new 6.0 upgrade), and now I see the same thing as mknox (rated miles slightly lower than previously @ 90% SoC)�
Oct 10, 2014
kennybobby Oh yeah that's right on target with the other two guys, especially if you recover another mile or 2 over the next two weeks. i'll update the chart when i get a chance and add your data points.�
Oct 13, 2014
badgerlake Sadly, I am back in the same boat also.�
Oct 13, 2014
tomas I really don't think you can consider @mknox change as even slightly lower. 1 mi is right on. I often vary 1 or 2 miles at charge completion.�
Oct 13, 2014
Mnlevin I guess I am starting to see some degradation. Just completed a 5500 mile trip from Fl to Ma and back over 1 1/2 months. We now have about 38k miles on the car. Cant get 90% over 176 and 100% is now at 198 at best. Some other interesting facts, if I can keep my Wh/mi between 290-300 I get just about 1-1 miles vs rated. For most of my trip that was no problem. Most of the time I was able to travel highway speed 70 mph. In South Florida 70 mph generally uses 310-330 wh/mi but up north we were easily getting 70mph at or under 300. The temps were lower but we had to deal with mountains and hills. Just thought it strange as the last leg of the trip used 333 at 70mph from Tampa to Coral Springs. That is a problem when you are only charging about 110% of what you need to get to the next stop. BTW, be sure to check Google Maps for your route. We charged the car to 165 for a 143 Mile trip to PSL across Rt 60 to the Fl Turnpike. 22 miles out, we ran into a 13 mile detour that required that I go back to the SC, recharge the car and go a different route. That could have been a disaster going the other way with little charging options around.�
Oct 13, 2014
kennybobby It looks like you are right in line with the 100% and 90% curves as reported by the other 60 pack owners. What is the age of your car/pack in months?�
Oct 13, 2014
Mnlevin May 5 2013 so about 18 months. with 37k miles�
Oct 13, 2014
JohnQ Might have been a headwind that increased the energy usage. I check surface wind forecasts on aviationweather.com when planning my road trips. This way there fewer surprises.�
Oct 13, 2014
FredTMC yep, I get exactly the same Rated Range as you. 176mi at 90% and 198mi at 100%. I just turned 40k mi on ODO.�
Oct 13, 2014
glhs272 183 rated range @90%. 33.5K miles�
Oct 14, 2014
Mnlevin Well considering I was at 183 at 90% and 203 at 100% when new then it is about 3% loss over the time and miles. If it was a static number then I would expect around 171 at 90% and 193 at 100% in the next 18 months. But it is probably a compound factor so then the numbers would be around 168 at 90% and 190 at 100%. Continuing from there at around 100k miles compounding the numbers may be 160 at 90% and 182 at 100% if there is a linear 4% compound loss over time. That would be an acceptable situation to drive the car for 4 years at 25000 per year and only lose 20 miles of maximum range. I could live with that. If someone wants to check my math it would be appreciated.�
Oct 14, 2014
tomas Your math is ok but your assumptions are off. If you listen to what roadster owners and early S owners are saying, loss is not linear - much less compound! There's some loss in first year for most, but it slows after that. Read up! If your assumptions were correct, the roadsters would be leafs by now.�
Oct 14, 2014
mknox Yep. And I'm back up to 218 @ 90% over the last two days. I do seem to have plateaued there. I was seeing 214-215 @ 90% after reverting to 90% charging (from 70% daily) about 3 or 4 weeks ago.�
Oct 14, 2014
scaesare What leads you to this conclusion?�
Oct 14, 2014
Mnlevin Just guess, that as something degrades or depreciates, it would do so as a factor of the current state (compounding) vs a linear reduction based on the original state. Again, it is just a guess as to how things typically happen in nature. But if at 100,000 miles I have only lost about 15 miles of range, it is not a big deal the car will still have a lot of value to me.�
Oct 14, 2014
JohnQ Compound factors are an accelerant for growth and and a restraint on contraction. So, if something declines 10% annually from a starting point of 100 then it's reduced by 10. A 10% decline from there (90) is a reduction 9, etc.
This is assuming a constant percentage of contraction which has been demonstrated to be inaccurate when applied to the battery pack (i.e., past degradation rate does not indicate future degradation rate).�
Oct 14, 2014
UberEV1 Thought I would try this out as well and am seeing similar results on my S85 with a B pack. Originally charged to 90% as Tesla advised, then backed down to operate in the 60~75% range as well as hold charge level at 60% during my 1 and 2-week business trips. Using this approach, I saw the rated range begin to drop, but didn't do any 100% charges to check max full. After reading the posts here, I went back to 90% charges and saw rated range increase from 225 to 228 today (also over 3 week period). Not very scientific without the max charge and ideal range data as well, but some change observed.�
Oct 16, 2014
Tacket S60 - B pack - 37k miles : When charging to low percentage my 90% was 165 rated. Started 90% charges and after about 4 weeks hit 90% at 178 rated this morning. Fun!�
Oct 17, 2014
xhawk101 Please tell me how do you know if you have a b or C pack�
Oct 17, 2014
Bighorn There's a label on the battery that you can see if you turn the wheel and peer into the passenger side front wheel well. IIRC, it's after the last digit.�
Oct 17, 2014
xhawk101 Excellent thanks�
Oct 18, 2014
Bardlebee This is a really, really large thread with a HUGE amount of information. Would it not be beneficial to have a Googly Document to record everyone's mileage/current range/last time range charged/how often rang charged/climate/etc???
I think this is a fabulous idea (maybe one that's been brought up before) but I loved that document in the thread about deliveries, really gives you an appreciation of all the aggregate information. Tesla has all our numbers, but it would be nice to take a step back and see everyone's numbers that aren't buried in piles of pages of threads. I can figure out how to start this Doc if you guys like. I would or someone could also add a section to update their current range, going forward.�
Oct 19, 2014
tomas This exists but never got traction. Requires a curator- someone who harvests the posts here and updates table. Kind of like the lifetime wh/mi thread.�
Oct 19, 2014
jerry33 And that thread hasn't been updated in months�
Oct 19, 2014
golfski Did you guys see this decrease early on? I have a 6/2014 build, 60kWh, which started at 213 @100% and 191 @90%, but now I am getting consistently 177-179 @90% and 197-199 @100%. I just crossed 8K miles. If I still get this same range 2 years from now when I am at 40,000 miles I will be happy - but I am kind of worried as it has decelerated pretty fast.�
Oct 19, 2014
Klaus I get the same numbers as you. A full charge on 120V overnight at a hotel a few months ago got me 200 mi.
90% gets me 179 right after charge is finished, 177 by the time I drive in the morning.
18k miles. When it was new I saw 206 once ...�
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