Sep 11, 2014
bigsmooth125 Your 70% charge is greater than my 80% which gives me 194 rated miles. I usually charge to 70-80% and drive down to 50-60%, rarely to 90%, and very rarely 100%. I'm not concerned but do pay close attention to the rated miles out of curiosity.�
Sep 11, 2014
qwk His 70% number has to be a mistake, as it's not possible unless he has a 300 mile pack. :wink:�
Sep 11, 2014
scaesare Agreed. That sounds like a 90% range #...�
Sep 11, 2014
gaswalla might be ideal range numbers�
Sep 11, 2014
Gear Playing devil's advocate, if you're charging to 90%+ on a daily basis and are showing several miles higher than others who only rarely charge to 90%+, and you're only losing minimal actual mileage because of it (Islandbay only lost 1 or 2 miles after 34,000 on a 60kWh), then aren't you kind of getting more for your money? During trips where range is tight, your presumably can make it more comfortably since your pack is better balanced and displays higher, more accurate range. Having a lower, less accurate rated range reading (say that 10 times fast) wouldn't be a problem if you still were able to achieve the same actual range, but we don't believe it does, do we? I think it's something we all have to decide for ourselves, but there are merits to both sides.
Personally, I don't charge to 90%+ normally because I live in the mountains and don't get enough regenerative braking when leaving my house at that charge level, so I end up having to use friction brakes to keep my speed down, which I don't like doing.�
Sep 12, 2014
mknox Yep, sorry I meant my 90% range :crying:�
Sep 12, 2014
glhs272 This is more my situation. Until the charging situation gets better in my area, I need the most out my pack right now...all of it. I am hoping that in one or two more years more superchargers will be sprouting up in middle and northern Wisconsin that a little range loss will become less of an issue. So for me a well balanced pack is important, even if I might have a little more range loss when the car is at 100K+ miles.�
Sep 12, 2014
Benjamin Brooks Anyone on firmware 6.0 seeing any noticeable changes to their rated range numbers after 90% or 100% charge?�
Sep 12, 2014
AmpedRealtor Awesome post, thank you!
I've already done a couple of 100% charges and my rated range estimate has increased by 8 miles. That's enough to tell me the battery is fine and I'll be going back to my regular routine of charging to 50%-70%, which is fine for my daily needs.�
Sep 13, 2014
islandbayy Testing that right now, will report back in the 6.0 thread.�
Sep 13, 2014
islandbayy 100% cane out to 206 rated compared to 205 yesterday. that's on my new battery pack that has 4,300 miles.�
Sep 14, 2014
mfrey My MS 60 has 12,000 miles and I only get 178Miles on a 90% charge and 198miles on a full charge. This is a bit disappointing. I tried to reduce the charge amps from 40 to 20 hoping it would gain me back some miles. Not luck still at 178.
Is this normal? I would love to know. This seemly happened overnight as I would normally get at least 185 on a standard 90% charge.�
Sep 14, 2014
Super Gizmo Interesting article regarding charging of li-ion batteries in PC World. Here is the link -
Want lithium-ion batteries to last? Slow charging may not be the answer | PCWorld�
Sep 14, 2014
Tacket Just another data point - MS60 32k miles - been charging to 90% past few days and range has increased from 166 to 171. Will likely continue doing this for a few more weeks then will go back to my normal regime (50%-70%).�
Sep 14, 2014
drees This article is much more informative: Green Car Congress: Study finds rapid charging and draining doesn't damage lithium-ion electrode as much as thought�
Sep 14, 2014
hans It's has been normal for my car for at least a year or more. My S60 has 18,000 miles and gets 176-177 miles on a 90% charge.�
Sep 14, 2014
gekkota Your experience is nearly identical to my 14,500 mile MS60. I think the car has shed approx 11 miles at 90% over the past few months on firmware 5.12. It's not a great feeling..�
Sep 14, 2014
Gear You guys will need to charge to 90% (or more) every day for awhile to get the miles back.�
Sep 15, 2014
efusco What about NOT decreasing rated range?
While my daily 90% charge level has dropped from the original 242ish that it started to around 231, and my "usual" range charge has dropped from 272 to ~258 miles, what I've found, at 39,500 miles, is that after a long trip and a full charge (allowed to range charge until the charging actually completed that hour-long last minute) that my range numbers improve dramatically, and they seem to be real. These photos are from this weekend. I range charged to 258 miles prior to a trip to St. Louis (about 225 miles all interstate), arrived with about 8 miles left, charged to about 80% overnight then topped up yesterday afternoon and hit 273 miles rated! Even my 90% rated range has increased back into the 240s it appears.
�
Sep 15, 2014
mknox That's amazing! I never saw anything above 264 or 265 on a Range Charge even when the car was new. It sounds like your miles came back fairly quickly (i.e. no need for a month+ of 90% charges like others are suggesting). I assume you also have an A-pack battery???�
Sep 15, 2014
Sacrament055 So far I've seen a slight decrease in rated range on 6.0
I suppose it could be unrelated since the weather has also cooled off�
Sep 15, 2014
brianman 92-93% according to REST API logs
- - - Updated - - -
Yes. 220 -> 239 @ 90% across the transition to 6.0 firmware.�
Sep 15, 2014
bluetinc Is there any chance that the miles display was switched to ideal instead of rated? Those numbers look just about correct for your original numbers switched into ideal.
As a side note, the 242-245 (90%) charge that people remember is from old software that was really "standard" charge (vs. range), and charged the battery to ~93% not 90%. I don't know of any battery that charged at any point into the 240s rated at the settable 90% charge.
Peter
�
Sep 15, 2014
tomas Good point! 93 v 90 is not comparable. Pretty close, as I am now seeing [email�protected]% 18k miles, 5.11, "A" pack. Which seems pretty darned good. Never run it to empty to find out how much is real, though!�
Sep 15, 2014
Zextraterrestrial not true, the loaner I am driving has 3800mi on it and charges to 242-3 @ 90% ... almost 100% was at 273 mi rated. this is a 5.12 flavor�
Sep 15, 2014
efusco Correct, "A" pack. I charge to 90% daily. 1 month ago on a similar trip to St.Louis when charging at the Tesla Service Center it charged to 271 after getting down to about 20 miles rated at the end of the trip up.�
Sep 15, 2014
efusco Nope, rated range. It held up for the drive home too.�
Sep 15, 2014
mknox Okay, maybe that's it. For the last (at least) 6 months, I've been charging to 70% daily and drawing down to 30 or 40% by the end of the day. I may go back to daily 90% charging.�
Sep 15, 2014
qwk I don't think today's firmware versions are comparable to the early versions, because they have been changed so much in the two years. When my car was new(first charge) it stopped at 237 miles for the standard(93% back then) charge. It eventually topped out at 242-243 rated, before the switch to the slider.�
Sep 15, 2014
tomas There is a crowd who says that the 70/30 cycle is IDEAL because your battery averages 50% SOC, which is healthier in long term. If you go to 90/50 cycle, then you are averaging 70% SOC. You will have better rated range... nobody knows if that is because of balancing, better estimating algorithm... at consistent 90% charging (for weeks). I do not have the EE or Chemistry competency to judge whether the 50% SOC crowd is correct. Tesla Motors says 90 daily is OK, and likely would not have provided the slider at all if it were not for the EPA issue (EPA would have used 90% to rate range if it was considered "normal" charge).�
Sep 15, 2014
brianman I set my charge limit to 90% (instead of less) for two reasons:
1. It's the default of the car. If there is any setting Tesla should stand behind strongly (with regards to warranty and generally), it's the default settings.
2. Part of why I bought the car was because it had > 200mi range. (Not the 185.5 @ 70% using the EPA 265 number.)�
Sep 15, 2014
tezco I have the luxury of leaving the car at 50% most of the time since my local trips are so short, and only charging to 80 or 90 when I'm planning on doing some longer drives down to Denver or up to the mountains. I did get caught once at low power when a quick emergency trip was needed, but I guess that's not bad when spread over 2 years of ownership. I wonder if all this dancing on the slider will make any difference in the long run...
It will be difficult to tell if my true range has changed since Tesla seems to change the the ideal and rated range calculations with every firmware update, and the original 92 or 93% default "notch" on the slider has gone away. With the Leaf it is much easier since my local drives use up most of the range in the winter. At this point not much left to lose.�
Sep 18, 2014
ddenboer I charge to 90% every two days (drive 90 miles a day with 45k miles on my car but about 15k miles on this second A pack). I have been seeing decreasing miles for the last year, with my old pack and my refurb A.
On my service center advice, I did a full charge on the weekend and got 242 miles rated range for the 100% charge (VisibleTesla says it was 99% though).
After two days of gentle driving (highway mostly at ~70mph), my average energy usage is 292 Wh/mi for total usage of 53.0 kWh. Rated range after that was only 34 miles (33.8 on VisibleTesla). SOC % was 14.0
To summarize:
99% charge showed 242 miles of range
181.4 miles driven, using 53.0 kWh (average 292 Wh/mi)
33.8 miles rated range left (SOC of 14%)
Definitely having some problems here...�
Sep 20, 2014
Super Gizmo I have a Nov'12 P85 with A pack. I used to get over 265 on Range and 240-245 on max Daily charge up until I had approximately 14K miles last year and then the firmware which gave us the option of less than max Daily charge came out and I started charging at about 60% or so. I saw my range drop to 250 on a Range charge and about 230 or so on max Daily and now going down to under 220 on a max Daily charge. I haven't done a Range charge in a while but adding 10% to max Daily of 218-220 would give me about 240 and the car has about 23K miles. So, it seems like as many have stated in this thread the obvious reason for losing range is not charging to max Daily as we used to when the car was first introduced in 2012. I agree with brianman above, I bought this car because it was supposed to have a max range of 265 EPA and 300 ideal and not 25 miles or so under that. I bought both - the 8 years service and extended warranty. Tesla warranties the battery to 8 years and unlimited miles but it is interesting that they specifically don't cover the loss of range. Obviously Tesla knew something we didn't and that is - these batteries are going to lose their range like they are. If we don't charge to max Daily they will lose range AND if we do charge to max Daily the battery will deteriorate. So, you are damned if you do and damned if you don't. Although I have had a myriad of problems with the car including replacing the inverter and numerous other issues i don't want to get into, I chalked it up to being an early adopter with Vin: 01586. I love the way the car drives and all the great features etc. but this loss of range in the battery really bothers me. This is just plain not right.�
Sep 20, 2014
tomas i cannot draw same conclusion from your facts. The assertion that charging to 90% regularly harms battery is chatter. Tesla says OK. So if you charge to 90% for a couple of weeks, what do you have? For me, and I've experienced exact same as you with a year of 60% charging, after a couple of weeks of 90% charging, I'm back up to 240 @ 90% which implies NO degradation. 18k mi, A battery.�
Sep 20, 2014
tdiggity I'm on the same boat as super Gizmo. Charging to 90% daily doesn't help.
Edit: Referenced wrong username.�
Sep 21, 2014
Todd Burch Tomas is saying that charging to 90% over several weeks' time DID improve his range.�
Sep 21, 2014
tdiggity Sorry typo, I meant I am seeing the same as Super Gizmo.
I've been daily maxing for 2 months, and have a 90% charge of 220. Range didn't increase during that time. The range started dropping as soon as I limited my daily charge to 70-80% back in v5.9 or whichever version introduced it.�
Sep 21, 2014
mkjayakumar Super Gizmo: were you expecting the same EPA range as new, 265 miles, year after year ?�
Sep 21, 2014
ckessel Tesla has said for a long time they were expecting 70-80% of the original range after 8 years/100,000 miles. Back in the Roadster days, they were forecasting quite a bit worse than that (A Bit About Batteries | Blog | Tesla Motors), but the S is better maintained.
Your car's rate of degradation is about on par with that 70-80% expectation.
It's baffling to me that anyone would come in with the mind set that batteries won't degrade. It's not like batteries are a new mystery technology. We've known batteries degrade for literally centuries now. Even specifically Lithium Ion batteries, the are decades of experience/discussion about it. Hell, gas cars have batteries and people know they degrade.
That criticism said, Tesla used to have an FAQ section on their website that very specifically answers with that 70-80% number. I can't find that FAQ anymore nor anything about degradation expectations on their website and that's a touch disturbing.�
Sep 21, 2014
Super Gizmo Up until last year & 14K miles when the new firmware giving the option to charge under the max Daily was introduced.
ckessel - I know that eventually all batteries degrade but in this case it seems like some (especially A pack) are degrading faster than others. Some people charge in the similar pattern as I do and have a lot higher mileage on their cars but get better range. There are 152 pages on this thread and if you read through them and other threads regarding range, one things becomes clear - most people are confused about charging level. Even Tesla employees have different answers.
tomas - As I posted above "So, it seems like as many have stated in this thread the obvious reason for losing range is not charging to max Daily as we used to when the car was first introduced in 2012". It seems like that is what you are doing with good results and I am planning on doing the same. The problem is as many have posted on this thread and I have read somewhere Elon Musk being quoted, in his answer last year to a query in a press conference somewhere, stated that to maintain ideal battery health it should be charged around 60%. So, there is no clear solution. There are many differing opinions. I wish Tesla would make it clear in the Owner's Guide and on their blog post on the Tesla web site about what level is best for the car to be charged at. They simply say to leave it plugged in but do not elaborate about plugging in to what % would be best for the health of the battery.�
Sep 21, 2014
ckessel I've read most of this thread over the years.
There's certainly a lot of individual variation. Given charging styles, driving styles, temperature variations, battery back variations, and so forth I expect a decent level of variation Some people are doing really well and some less so, but even the folks that aren't doing as great are still basically on track for Tesla's 70-80% after 8 years/100k guideline.
I wish Tesla would take an official hard stand on what % triggers the warranty. There have been folks saying [email�protected] told them 70%, but there's never been anything official. And I think Tesla made a mistake by removing any wording about what degradation to expect on their website as that just leads to further confusion and speculation.�
Sep 22, 2014
Matias There's no such guidance AFAIK. Only guidance is, that battery degeneration is not covered by warranty.�
Sep 22, 2014
ckessel At one point, Tesla had it in an FAQ in the Model S section. As I noted before...it's been removed for some reason
Edit: Found it in Wayback.
Model S Facts | Tesla Motors
�
Sep 22, 2014
brianman Don't believe everything you read.
They also said this back in February, 2012:
Model S Facts | Tesla Motors
Just sayin'.�
Sep 22, 2014
ckessel The point is Tesla has given guidance on degradation expectations in the past.
If you search Tesla's forums, there are multiple reports of customers asking Tesla (via the [email�protected] address) about degradation and warranty and being told it would kick in at 70%. Whether that'd hold up in arbitration, I have no idea.�
Sep 22, 2014
brianman Not under dispute.
�
Sep 24, 2014
johnmodels Just did a range charge at the nearest Supercharger and got 248 at 100% "complete" charge. VIN 6XXX, A pack, 32,000 miles.
Looks like I am one of the lowest range charge miles. Anyone worse?
I have never "balanced" the pack and only gone to under 10 miles once.
I never keep the car at a high SOC (>90%) for more than a few hours at most.
John�
Sep 24, 2014
apacheguy 248 isn't so bad considering there are a whole slew of A packs centered around 250ish. I'm right at 250 FWIW (haven't checked 6.0 numbers).�
Sep 24, 2014
badgerlake I'm at 231 but I haven't done a full charge since 6.0 was installed.�
Sep 24, 2014
ckessel Pretty much on par with mine. I'm at 252 I think last time, VIN 2310 with 27,000 miles. I'd probably be in the high 240s like you once I hit 32k. I started with 272 originally.
As I said before, it's sort of "meh". I'd hoped for better. I'm losing about 15 rates miles per calendar year. So, after 10 years that'd be only 45% rated range left, which is worse than I thought by a pretty big margin. However, batteries don't have a linear degradation so I figure I won't really know how it's doing for another few years.�
Sep 24, 2014
johnmodels That was with 6.0. I didn't notice any difference after the update.
BTW For clarification, I'm a 85 KW pack.
231? How many miles and months old is your MS?
John�
Sep 24, 2014
badgerlake Dec 2012 but with only 12k miles and a babied battery. I have contacted ownership and the SC assures me things are ok (checked logs). Sounds like an algorithm issue might affect "some" of us but they prefer any folks to not self diagnose individual battery issues and reach out to their SC if they have concerns. I don't think 248 on an A pack with 32k miles should be a major concern tho.�
Sep 24, 2014
scaesare It's not linear like that.
I just hit 32K miles today (at exactly 16 months of ownership to the day), and I haven't range charged in a bit, but guess I'm at 250-255.
I recall that I lost 10 of those miles within the first few months, and only a few since...�
Sep 24, 2014
LMB (LMB spouse)
16 months, 23,000 miles, S85 with B pack, "babied" battery but dozens of Supercharges, 6.0 firmware
We see range charges between 248 and 253 (just before 200 mile leg to first SC). The variability helps me remember not to read too much into small differences. Also lost ~ 15 miles in first several months; almost none since.�
Sep 24, 2014
johnmodels
Thanks for the feedback! It's nice to know how many are in the same boat.
John�
Sep 24, 2014
ecarfan S85, took ownership 12/21/13, currently 17K miles, B pack, have range charged maybe 10 times and never let the car sit at full for more than an hour, normally keep the battery at around 80%, mild climate, recent range charge showed 255 rated miles. Use an HPWC for home charging, have used Superchargers about 20 times and never to more than 90% charge.
So that is about a 4% loss in the first year. I'm fine with that as long as in the second year the loss is less than 5% and after that it is in the very low single digits. That is what I am expecting based on the data to date.
Tesla has created a very impressive BMS.�
Sep 24, 2014
johnmodels
I guess what is rolling around in my mind, is what range would I be OK with if it went down further. 240, 230, 220? And what is acceptable at what mileage? So if I have 75000 miles on the car and the max range is 230, will I be OK with that? Is it going down very slowly or linearly indicating that at 100,000 miles I will have about 215 max range.
So I have decreased 7% in about 30,000 miles. Lets say that is linear and not what others are talking about. That would mean that at 120,000 I will have a max range of 190 miles.
Just thinking out loud here....
I would hope that it would have more than 225 miles range at that mileage. Just my thoughts!!!
John�
Sep 24, 2014
scaesare I addressed this above. It's NOT linear. This is true of Li-ion battery chemistry in general, and agrees with Tesla's guidance on the subject as well. It also matches what I've seen in 16 months of ownership.
The "steep" part of the less curve is very early on in the cell's life. After that the slop flattens out significantly.�
Sep 24, 2014
qwk 26k miles, 18.5 months old, B battery, vin 67XX, 262 rated last range charge, 233 at 90%.�
Sep 24, 2014
ckessel Yea, B packs seem to be consistently and substantially better than A packs for similar miles and age.
I can hope A and B sort of converge over time, but as it looks today, A pack owners got noticeably inferior technology�
Sep 24, 2014
qwk I know an A pack owner that has more miles than me, and his max rated range is 260. I baby my pack, he abuses it. The high rated range display(most lower numbers are not degradation) is attainable by keeping the pack balanced, and avoiding charging to less than 90% as much as one can. This of course will contribute to higher degradation than someone who keeps the slider at 50%, and ends up with a pack out of balance.
New cars have more closely matched cells within the modules for a better balance, and thus range display. This is evident by the number of highlighted cell groups that are at the same voltage levels in the first BMS screen picture, and the opposite is happening in the second picture. This is why we have such a difference in peoples displayed range numbers. Most cases have little to do with actual battery degradation. I tried to explain this in the beginning of this thread, but it fell on deaf ears.
�
Sep 24, 2014
scaesare This.
I'll also point out that being out of balance (and thus showing lower range numbers despite no actual degradation, as you mention) is not harmful. If you can accept a little inaccuracy by shallower charges, you'll be putting less degradation-inducing strain on your pack.�
Sep 24, 2014
AmpedRealtor The day will come when someone, or a group of someones, will sue Tesla over lack of disclosure about battery degradation. Look, there are a lot of ill informed people who buy these cars. I can bet more than a few of them have no idea that batteries degrade over time and will expect their range numbers to stay the same in 8 years. I'm just saying that it will happen at some point and Tesla should make it more clear that the car will lose some range over time. Right now, I can't find that information anywhere. I also don't remember Tesla telling me anything about battery degradation at the time I purchased my car. I just know that batteries degrade and that it's a facto of life. Someone else may not know that.�
Sep 24, 2014
ckessel No doubt true. An exception doesn't invalidate a trend though. "A" pack owners are consistently, as a whole, reporting more degradation (or imbalance, if you prefer) that B packs. Perhaps the anecdotal evidence here isn't sufficient to establish a real trend though.
No, I heard you then. I contended then and still do now that it's mostly irrelevant if a pack is out of balance or degraded since I don't have access to those miles either way. There may be some mysterious way to balance, but I've ranged charged a handful of times and left the car for multiple hours to balance at the end and it's never made any difference. If I can't get the pack to balance, it has the same functional utility as a degraded pack.�
Sep 24, 2014
gregincal I have a B pack with 15K miles and get about 224/254 charging.�
Sep 24, 2014
scaesare From the Warranty linked to on the Specs Page:
�
Sep 24, 2014
Kipernicus Agree!�
Sep 24, 2014
ckessel I'll caveat though that if it's truly imbalance then at least there's hope it could get better somewhere down the line via a software update or a specialized Service Center visit. Until then, there's no difference from the consumer perspective between degradation and imbalance.�
Sep 24, 2014
Todd Burch Have you tried charging regularly to 90% (or I should say the top of the daily charge range) for a month or so? Most reports of improved range numbers seem to be a result of following that routine.�
Sep 24, 2014
hans I have a similar situation to @ckessel and I have charged to 90% every night for months without getting my range back. This works for some people but not everyone, and not me.�
Sep 24, 2014
ckessel I've charged to 90% every time I plug in since I got the car 20 months ago, with the exception of few week period where I tried 80% and decided that seemed pointless.
So, the short answer is Yes�
Sep 24, 2014
Pilot_51 What did you charge to before and how much range have you lost? The only way to completely balance the pack would be to charge to 100% or discharge to 0%, but since that increases degradation, 90% is recommended for partial balancing and may not actually show an improvement.
Let's try this thought experiment (I have no scientific basis, just a simplified guess): You get your car with 0% imbalance. As time goes on and you always charge to 90%, the imbalance gradually increases to a maximum of 20% (this assumes a constant 50% charge is where imbalance can be 100%). If you always charge to 80%, the maximum imbalance would be 40%. If you only charge to 80% long enough for the imbalance to reach 20% and then try balancing to 90%, there's a chance you won't see any improvement since the imbalance is not more than what you would naturally get with a 90% charge. Of course, it's more complicated than that given the BMS and the many cells, but this should give you a basic idea as to why I think you may not be seeing an improvement.�
Sep 24, 2014
brianman I have my charge limit set to 90% (originally 92-93%). I charge nightly (except sometimes when travelling, or when I am rearranging cars, or at a service center or....) and am seeing 221 miles rated after 40k miles.
My recollection is that the prevailing theory is that balancing happens "above" 90% (at 99% or 100% has been debated somewhat).�
Sep 24, 2014
ecarfan Qwk, what you say makes a lot of sense. So...how do I bring up the battery data display shown in the photos you posted? Thanks.
�
Sep 24, 2014
Gear Only Tesla technicians can bring that display up.�
Sep 24, 2014
apacheguy Unfortunately, yes. But this info needs to be exposed to the user.�
Sep 24, 2014
qwk To take this one step further, most cars will get back to like new range by charging to 100% and letting the car sit for a certain amount of time(weeks, months). I have seen this firsthand(not on my car), but this is a sure way to ACCELERATE real battery degredation. It's something that would be my last resort if I had lower range showing. Some Service Centers do this or used to do this to help rated range go back up. Tesla engineering says it's working on a solution to fix this problem, but from a technical point of view, it seems very difficult to address without resorting to the extreme measure I explained above.
FYI, Tesla freaks the F out if they find out someone has been messing around in the service menus. There are quite a few changes that could be made, so I really don't blame them.�
Sep 25, 2014
Denarius I'm almost at 32k miles on my B pack and in range mode (AC setting) a full charge this morning got me 254 miles. Turning range mode off dropped the estimated range by a couple miles shortly after turning it off (without driving), so it's important to include that setting whenever you post your range.�
Sep 25, 2014
mknox I had been doing the 70% to 40% SOC daily for quite some time and also say my Rated miles drop. I've set the slider to 90% for about a week now (end the day at about 60%) and have seen 1 or 2 additional miles come back at the 90% mark.�
Sep 25, 2014
MassX1317 We have been getting somewhere around 205-207 at 80%.
The last range charge was 257-258 but my wife said she drove for about 7 miles before the miles started dropping off.
When we are done driving for the day we try to charge to 50%. At 3-4am we will start the charge to get us to the approximate miles we need for the day to get us down to 50%.
We have over 12k miles on the Model S.�
Sep 25, 2014
ckessel Huh? Range mode shouldn't have any impact at all on the range reported. Range mode is just a voluntary crippling of certain accessories (like the fan) to avoid undo energy consumption. It shouldn't have anything to do with the range reported by the car as that's only related to the kwh in the battery.�
Sep 25, 2014
mknox Here's two weird things I've noticed... in case it has any relevance here:
1. Sometimes the Rated Range number on the dash will be 1 or 2 miles different than what is shown on the 17" when you bring the battery screen up.
2. Often when I pull off the highway and park for a half hour or so, my car will have as much as 5 Rated miles more than when I stopped. This happens when it is just parked and not plugged in.�
Sep 25, 2014
tomas Not so. kWh is numerator. Expected avg usage is denominator. With functions crippled, expected usage goes down and rated range goes up.�
Sep 25, 2014
nanimac I noticed the same thing!�
Sep 25, 2014
ckessel Again, huh?
The rated range is purely based on EPA rating per kWh. It has nothing to do with anything you select in the car. Your actual usage may change with selections, but rated range won't (or shouldn't).�
Sep 25, 2014
Tacket I've been charging to 90 (on my MS60) for about 2 weeks and went from 167 to 175 rated (just hit 175 this morning). I'll continue for another 2-6 weeks before going back to my usual routine.�
Sep 25, 2014
brianman I've never seen either of these in my car.�
Sep 25, 2014
qwk It shouldn't, but does happen. I'm sure it's some kind of software bug. With FW 5.8, both screens read the same range, now with 5.12 the dash reads the higher number, and the 17" screen reads the normal range number for me. If you toggle between the two modes, and wait a few minutes, you guys should have the same behavior.�
Sep 25, 2014
rlang59 In my car if I turn range mode on the rated range goes up by 3-4 miles.
- - - Updated - - -
I have seen both of these as well.�
Sep 25, 2014
tomas Thx @QWK for explaining both.
I actually think this brings up a much deeper question. Is the denominator of the "rated range" calculation fixed since the EPA loop tests, or not? And, is there one and only one value of the denominator: presumably based on the average Wh/mi from the EPA loop test? Or are there 2 (one for each toggle of range mode switch)? Or are there other factors (historical usage of the driver, temperature, etc.) baked into the calculation?
One thing I know for certain: my rated range has changed perceptibly numerous times after firmware updates. That could all stem from messing with the numerator: different ways of estimating the number of kW in the battery, changing the reserve on either end (below 0, above 100). Or, it could include some messing with the denominator. I know that the number posted on the window sticker and in advertising is sacrosanct, and has to tie back to the EPA tests. But, not sure the number on the dash is locked down like that.
I'm not hung up on this, not going to lose sleep over it! But I think it is interesting debate -- which is all it is, absent the real facts from Tesla.�
Sep 25, 2014
ckessel Well, that's really unfortunate. That means Tesla isn't calculating range based on the EPA rating. It's calculating range based on some unknown algorithm that apparently varies in for unknown reasons. It's a small enough difference to be of little practical concern, but at a conceptual level I want to believe that when my display says "147 rated range" that it's always based on the same assumptions.
I'd hate to go "Oh, I've made this trip before and I know I can make it to my destination if I slow down to 60mph" and find out that, no, I won't make it this time because the range wasn't really the same "147 rated range" I saw last time do to some change in some config screen.
Anyway, mountain out of a molehill since, as I noted, it's small enough variation to be of little impact. I'd certainly call it a bug though. The "rated range" shouldn't be based on anything other than the EPA rating.�
Sep 25, 2014
qwk I think that it all boils down to the range being just an estimate, and only an estimate.�
Sep 25, 2014
Gear I don't think this rules out that they're using the EPA rating. As has been said many times on this forum, reading the kWh remaining from our packs isn't as easy reading remaining fuel in a tank. They could easily be using the EPA rated kWh/mi figure and just be improving the algorithm for reading the remaining energy in the pack.�
Sep 25, 2014
AmpedRealtor The car is just telling you that you can travel a few miles further with your AC in range mode. I think that's fair to incorporate into the range display. I realized this little "trick" a few months ago, but it's really just for show.�
Sep 26, 2014
walla2 More data and food for thought:
My 2012 Signature P85 with its refurb A pack just hit 9100 miles. I had a 90% charge of 227 on 5.9 and have a 90% charge of 226 on 6.0.
My original battery was a trooper. It would range charge to 257 just before it died suddenly from the clunk at 4500 miles. Degradation of range had only started on my original A pack when I started 50-70% instead of 90-93% charging the car. I also used to charge at less than or equal to 24 A @ 220V. When Tesla added the slider and said 40 A would save power, I stopped doing this and that is when the pack went from 260+ downward. I would not advise charging 50-70% ever and would charge at lower amperage if that is practical.
My refurbished A pack battery started with less range miles (250) and seems to be losing miles much more quickly. Pointing this out to Tesla indirectly and also directly has led nowhere really despite efforts to increase it back (firmware 5.8/9 was the only thing that truly helped). I suspect at the end of the day my refurb A pack had more miles on it than my original A pack (~4500).
Which begs the question, shouldn't the batteries have odometers too? Since they are the life force of the car but can be replaced, a Model S with 9000 miles but a 90000 mile on the battery isn't going to be the same as a 9000 mile Model S with a 9000 miles on the battery.
My thoughts now on preserving / maintaining pack range:
1. Charge at 90% always and every day.
2. Charge at lower amps if possible.
3. Don't attempt to balance at 100%. It didn't help (no significant or lasting effect) and may hurt things in the end.
4. Firmware changes will move the miles back and forth so don't freak if miles change between firmwares. It's apples to oranges.
5. Make replacement pack version (A, B C, D, etc.) and SOC / rated range a priority concern if you have a pack failure.�
Sep 26, 2014
MassX1317 Charged to 90% last night, 230 on dash, 228 on center screen�
Sep 26, 2014
tomas Do you have range mode on?�
Sep 26, 2014
apacheguy Well, in theory, service is supposed to look at the CAC value of your failed pack and then replace it with an equal or better rated pack. That's the battery equivalent of the odometer. Did you ever ask Tesla for this data?�
Sep 26, 2014
MassX1317 Yes, D pack, 12k+ miles�
Sep 26, 2014
dsm363 19,000 miles on original A pack with 228 miles at 90%�
Sep 26, 2014
breser You had a different pack, different charging rate and different target SOC. I don't see how you can draw any conclusions from that at all.�
Sep 26, 2014
rdrcrmatt B back, 14 months old, 41,000.
90% charge somewhere around 227. 225-231 on any given day
today's 100% charge, 255.�
Sep 26, 2014
Mike_Schlechter I did my first range charge in recent memory today and topped out at 247. I have an A pack and 33k miles.
Feels low to me, as a year ago I was getting 257. I have to go in for an unrelated issue in the near future; think I should mention this as well?�
Sep 26, 2014
UberEV1 @Walla - What charging parameters did you use when you received your refurbished pack?�
Sep 26, 2014
walla2
All I know is degradation was minimal when I used to charge at 90-93 at lower amps.
I have gone back to that now to halt my loss of range and so far that has worked. So I do feel I can write what I wrote.
- - - Updated - - -
I went through a number of range / balancing things for over a month. Then charged using the slider at 40 amps. Still noticed a loss. Now holding steady back to my old ways. I hope it continues to hold.�
Sep 26, 2014
mknox Diito. I have reverted to a 90% setting and regularly charge at 16 amps / 240 volts. We'll see how it goes. I've been getting 214 miles @ 90%. A-pack with 19 months and about 34,000 miles of use.�
Sep 26, 2014
qwk For what it's worth, unless I'm charging on 120V, it's always 40A. My range has not dropped much, so I don't think that lower power charging is related to anything.�
Sep 26, 2014
ThortsMD That's me almost exactly...18,250 miles and 227 at 90%.
Maybe it's a Seattle thing.
�
Sep 26, 2014
breser All I can say is that reading this thread is making me nervous as hell about how I treat the car. There's absolutely zero credible information about what is the best way to treat the car. Just a whole lot of anecdotal cases. For all I know I should do a little dance when I plug in the car to avoid problems.�
Sep 26, 2014
gaswalla No reason to get worried. The summary is that some people are meticulous about how they treat the battery and others don't care at all. Based on this thread, both approaches result in negligible range loss - if anything, those that treat the battery the roughest, have on average less degradation... (but the ocd folks will claim they just need to do some balancing) .... Basically, just relax and enjoy.�
Sep 26, 2014
apacheguy You're a new owner? I'm confident you have nothing to worry about. Your D pack will hold up quite well given that you charge it to 80-90% daily and 100% only when you need it.
Well, "balancing" does restore real, usable range so it's not completely OCD if you do it on the order of 1-2 times per month.�
Sep 27, 2014
RomainiacWV This thread is an amazing collection of owners, all having the same problem, decreased rated range beyond the expected degradation curve and in most cases it seems to be related to daily undercharging. Maybe its time to draft another open letter to Tesla to review this issue. I have SC appointment this week and plan to ask, however, I am not encouraged that I will have any confidence in the response I recieve as there is obviously no corperate level guidance on this issue.
I have been charging to 60% since offered last year, thinking I was saving the battery from degrading. Saw my RR drop quickly after ownership to 257, about in 4-5 months. I would typically range charge 3-4 times a month. I felt fine with this level as I attributed it to the early degradation I expected. I have in the last 2 months, not range charged at all, now suddenly down to 252. Vin 16xxx with 8/13 delivery and B battery. I have added back 1 mile on a re-check range charge tonight.
Just feel that the lack of guidance on this issue has been astounding from a company that otherwise is hypervigalent over some of the smallest complaints one may have. The battery is the drive train of this car for all intents and purposes. Lost range on screen for any reason is lost range, be it degradation (which I think is not happening en masse like this) or imbalance, the effect on ownership is the same.
For now, I am definately going to stop my 60% charging and go to 90%. Maybe add a 100% charge 1-2 times a week to see if range still adds. Will post the SC response when I get it. If not a satifactory response, I would be open to writing a letter to Jerome asking the issue be revisited by them. The company needs to provide guidance beyond "charge to daily needs and keeped plugged in" to the owners. In a similar letter, he responded that this is simply a "software" issue and not to be alarmed it will be fixed. My concern is that multiple software issues have been made and yet the issue persists. If software is the issue, they need to provide guidance on several issues. Is the range then really there? Will rated miles come off slower in these cases or is the car software "undercharging" the car therefore effectively degrading the owners range? If software, why does successive range charging seem to improve things? Is there any credance to the balance issue? Can an option be made to follow the car batteries total energy capacity, to allow the owner better visablilty into the batteries health?�
Sep 27, 2014
tomas I believe you are wrong on all counts. Many members are posting almost no degradation on this thread. Others are posting marginal, <10% after significant time/miles. A very small few are posting degredation > 10%. Most, including me, have seen missing range restored by charging 90% for 10 days or more. No need to range charge.
Tesla does have guidance. They seem to be comfortable w up to 90% daily, range when you really need it, as seldom as possible.
Do do not despair, for vast majority there's no big issue and we seek to understand. I'd welcome further guidance from tesla, but a letter should only be from those with real issues. 250s is not an issue.�
Sep 27, 2014
gaswalla I was advised last year to charge to 90% daily by my service center. That's my source for the recommendation�
Sep 27, 2014
breser Yup, I picked up on Wednesday. I've been charging to 80% and that's been leaving me with around 70 miles of range left from my trips.�
Sep 27, 2014
brianman You ...don't... do the dance? Oh, man, I'm so sorry. I'll come with you when you get your battery replacement if you need a sympathetic ear.�
Sep 27, 2014
AmpedRealtor Or, you could just follow Tesla's official recommendation which is to charge to 90% and plug in whenever possible. Doesn't that seem much simpler and easier than trying to figure out the inner workings of a battery that required many engineers hundreds of man hours to design? I've been charging in the 50%-70% range thinking that was best for the battery - and it very well might be. I drive conservatively and have only supercharged once for only a few minutes. I've had the car for 13 months and max charged three times. My 100% charge went from (ideal) 301 miles in March to 292 miles today.
I understand the range display is only an estimate, but that estimate is what I rely upon when driving the car. Based upon my range estimate, I've lost miles even though I've pampered the battery to no end since taking delivery of the car. If anything, babying the battery seems to exacerbate and increase the "range loss" as reported by the car's range estimate. I don't quite know what to make of all this, but I am now charging the car to 90% and not thinking too much about it.�
Sep 27, 2014
hans It's called the Electric Boogaloo.
�
Sep 27, 2014
brianman And most are somewhere in between these two extremes.
I don't always make the best choices regarding personal health but this is one of those examples where I choose to "let it go" and if my battery suffers some amount from not being "meticulous" then so be it.�
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