Thứ Ba, 31 tháng 1, 2017

Why is Tesla trying to talk me OUT of purchasing the Twin Charger package? part 1

  • Oct 21, 2013
    passion4audio
    Before I finalized, the sales guy talked me out of the Twin Chargers. He said with the ever-increasing Super Charging stations, I probably won't need it.

    After finalizing (and since my Tesla's delivery date was intentionally chosen to be as far off as possible - August, 2014) I phoned Tesla to add the Twin Charger option. They said I really didn't need it.

    Would someone please fill me in on whether I need this option?

    Here are some facts/questions:

    1. Will Twin Chargers benefit me (charge faster) if I pull into a Tesla Service Center for a charge?

    2. I understand the Super Charging stations bypass the onboard charger, but what about CHAdeMO? Will I benefit there with the Twin Chargers?

    3. I'm not a traveling salesman, and when I come home I usually stay home - so no real benefit at home above regular over night charging.

    4. I think some of you may say, hey, if money is no concern then get it... however I don't like to throw $$ away.

    Any insight/advice would be appreciated.

    Thanks!
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  • Oct 21, 2013
    bhuwan
    Have 0 regrets getting the twin chargers, having had to use it for faster charge on several occasions.

    I've met a few owners who have had to wait a bit longer (actually double the time) and regretted not having the twin chargers

    If you plan to 100% rely on the supercharges then you probably don't need it. Also, I would think that in 1 year we would have several more local chargin stations - thus eliminating the need


    I'd say get it.
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  • Oct 21, 2013
    carrerascott
    Consider resale as well, I'd think people buying later will much prefer to buy a car with twin chargers. Just a thought...

    I have twin and the HPWC -- only using 60A for now until they fix it, so I'm only getting 20A more than a single charger would get at this point -- but do like the ability to charge up in a couple hours, occasionally it does happen that the wife comes home from errands, car is down to 120 or so range, and nice to be able to plug it in and get it back to 200+ pretty quickly with the dual chargers.
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  • Oct 21, 2013
    Chipper
    I think it really depends on where you are, and where you are going. In CA the situation is a WHOLE BUNCH BETTER than anywhere else in the country. Here in Chattanooga it's almost a no-brainer in the other direction.
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  • Oct 21, 2013
    liuping
    CHAdeMO does not need twin chargers, since it's DC charging similar to the Superchargers.
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  • Oct 21, 2013
    Lump
    Doesn't sound like you need them, looks like you might consider the upgraded audio instead based on your name (I don't see it listed in you signature)
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  • Oct 21, 2013
    brianman
    I find this (Tesla's) behavior quite unusual here. In my experience, they often give you info on the pros and cons of various options but never pushed me towards or away from any option. Especially not going so far as "slowing me down" in updating some information to match what I want -- when I didn't ask for an opinion on whether it was a good idea or not.
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  • Oct 21, 2013
    JST
    Am wrestling with the very same question, and in much the same circumstance. I was also talked out of the twin chargers. Here's what I'm thinking.

    1. Theoretically you will charge faster at a SC...but only if the SC is pushing more than 50 amps. The sales guy at the Washington DC store told me that their HPWCs don't, and that to his knowledge most SCs don't push more than that. More than anything else, he convinced me that twin chargers really wouldn't be helpful.

    2. CHAdeMO is a DC fast charge, just like Supercharging, so you don't need twin chargers. The $1000 CHAdeMO adapter might be a better buy than the twin chargers, depending on the number of CHAdeMO stations around you.

    3. Agreed, and I also have a dedicated charger at the office.

    4. $2700 for the twin chargers + the HPWC seems pretty steep to me. I could probably be persuaded to spend $1500 on the twin chargers, leaving open the possibility of buying the $1200 HPWC later, but I'm not sure they'd let me do that, and I haven't really pushed that hard to see if I could.

    For me, the really relevant point is that there aren't many (or any) 50+ amp chargers around here that I would use regularly. I travel to NYC now and then, but hopefully by the time I do that run the Supercharger will be installed in Edison, and I'm not sure having the twin chargers would help me, anyway.
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  • Oct 21, 2013
    Gizmotoy
    Tesla's advice against them caused me to look around at how many high amp stations are around. Even in the Bay Area, there are very few unless you include people's houses. It's significantly different in Oregon/Washington/Canada, but I don't plan any trips up that way so I decided against them. I tend to the think we'll see L3 chargers expanding faster than high-amp L2 since more cars support that, but it's just a guess. I have a suspicion that the CHAdeMO/SAE CC adapters will be a better investment than twin chargers long term.

    That and you can't unbundle the HPWC anymore, and since I'm in an apartment I can't use it. Along with a couple others on here, I got denied for returning it post-sale as well.

    So, I hope I don't regret it, but I'm not worried at this point.
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  • Oct 21, 2013
    brianman
    Is this updated information? We had heard post-bundling-options-change that people could return the HPWC after purchasing the "HPWC+Twin" bundle. Have they pulled back that offer?
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  • Oct 21, 2013
    Gizmotoy
    Based on what I was told, that was never official policy, and I could only find evidence of Tesla doing that for one person. I forget the user names, but in another thread two others on here mentioned they had the same trouble getting them to agree to the return of the HPWC. Or maybe it was the main Tesla forum. I can't recall now.

    Maybe if I raised a stink they'd do it, but I got denied twice, and I can't install a charger of any type where I live so I had a pretty strong case for not being able to use one.
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  • Oct 21, 2013
    staze
    I thought it was unusual when the rep on my test drive talked me out of the air suspension. He went on about the cost of repair after the warranty and how little benefit it had other than the "floaty" ride. He also added that the suspension would not be worth is since I know I was "only getting the 19's". Unfortunately my wife was along for the ride and was totally convinced it was a waste of money. After joining TMC I really feel like I would enjoy and benefit from having the upgrade suspension on my car but it's too late for that. I know it's still going to be a dream to own.
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  • Oct 21, 2013
    dhrivnak
    With more than 20,000 EV miles I have YET to find a charging station above 30 amps (6.6 kw) in Tennessee, NC, KY, Missouri or VA. They may exist in some mythical land but I have not found them and I have looked.

    As others have noted SuperCharging and CHAdeMO bypass the on board cbarger.
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  • Oct 21, 2013
    JST
    I wouldn't sweat it. I am not convinced that the air suspension is actually better than the coil springs--and some of lolachampcars posts have me thinking the reverse might be true. I test drove both, and thought that the air suspension was moderately better over bumps with the 21s, but not enough to really mind the coils.
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  • Oct 21, 2013
    liuping
    In Canada you can order them separately, because there are more 70A chargers there. It seems very strange they don't just leave the option for us too.

    Eventually, they did removed the HPWC from my order, after a long discussion about how I could not use it, but did feel there was value in the Dual Chargers, etc..

    That was before the CHAdeMO adapter was announced, which reduces the benefit/need slightly.
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  • Oct 21, 2013
    ZBB
    I think you have to look at it in your situation.

    You already answered that charging at home on a single charger would be fast enough. So the next questions are:
    1) Do you go anywhere where high amp AC charging is available?
    2) Would you need to charge faster when there? ie -- if you'd just charge overnight anyway, then what's the advantage.

    In my case, I went with the single charger. I'm only aware of a couple high-amp J1772s in AZ, and I wouldn't use them anyway (in-town...).

    However, if I lived in OR, WA or Canada, I may have had a different answer...
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  • Oct 21, 2013
    Newscutter
    Was at a test drive event this weekend and Tesla rep made the same point, that the number of high-amp public chargers is practically ZERO and that the Supercharger network build out will be faster and more extensive than public chargers anyway. I don't anticipate needing the HPWC at home either. So we'll be skipping it -- again, largely because of the bundled cost.
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  • Oct 21, 2013
    jcaspar
    I was told the same thing. Recommended against twin chargers and he leaned towards the standard coil suspension vs. air. I listened to him..
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  • Oct 21, 2013
    Discoducky
    No regrets on single charger option as I live on the west coast, as you do as well. That isn't to say that I wouldn't consider it for the X, but I doubt it. Sufficient planning on a trip is worth more IMHO.
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  • Oct 21, 2013
    nrcooled
    I went through the same rationalization and came out with the same answer. I passed and I haven't missed it at all. I have supercharged a bunch of times and it makes up for not having the twin chargers. Pretty soon, with the SC rollout, twin chargers will be a needless expense.
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  • Oct 21, 2013
    gaswalla
    you need dual chargers if you will need to drive 250miles, then require a charge to be "as fast as possible" so that you can get on the road again. Without dual chargers, you will regain approx 27-30 miles of range per hour of charging at 240v/40amps (with dual chargers it will be twice as fast). If you are doing a road trip, you want a Tesla Supercharger or a CHademo as a second choice. It would be a rare situation to be able to use your dual chargers while on a road trip due to the limited supply of high amperage chargers - but maybe you are in a situation where you have a friend who is a fellow Tesla owner and has a installed 80 amp service. No point in getting the dual chargers, in my opinion, if you are not able to install 80 amp service at home (make sure you can put in 100amps more into your main panel and are ok with spending a bit extra for the installation). There are some that say slower charging is better for battery health, so I personally wouldn't crank up the charging at home just b/c I could...

    listen to the Tesla rep -- truly a company that puts their customers first.
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  • Oct 21, 2013
    v12 to 12v
    Here is a portion of post a that I made a few days ago when another purchaser was considering options:

    I'm concerned about the fact that you have been talked out of the twin chargers. We are in the Pacific Northwest and higher powered charging stations are being put in by organized groups, cities and businesses at a surprising rate. Most of them are at recreational destinations, smaller cities on major routes and on scenic routes. I just got word that someone is planning on putting in high powered charging stations at a couple of the entrances to Yellowstone National Park.

    We quickly got to the point that we will not bother with stopping at a charging station unless it is over 50 Amps. We have been spoiled by the fast charging that the twin chargers provide. I know of several people that had remorse when ordering just a single charger. Retrofitting is more expensive. I believe that twin chargers will help your resale value in the future too.

    If you think that you will not be road tripping and finding a need for charging away from Superchargers or home, you might consider this: You may find yourself doing more Sunday drives, joy riding and taking the road less travelled once you get a Model S. We did.
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  • Oct 21, 2013
    Btrflyl8e
    It really all depends on how you use the car. I have never needed to use a public charging station yet, other than the super charger. Really glad I did not get the twin chargers, they would have been a waste of money for me.
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  • Oct 21, 2013
    N4HHE
    I decided 85 kWh was more important than dual chargers. That any time I drive more than 200 miles in one day it is away and back so a fast charger at my home would be of no benefit. Then again perhaps one day the turnaround would be near another friendly Model S owner with HPWC. Too much if'ing. No matter what the standard mobile 40A cable should do the job in 8 hours overnight in my garage. For longer trips I'll suffer driving the Mercedes-Benz dirtbike-hauler.

    http://home.hiwaay.net/~dkelly/ML320BT/ML320BT_Trailer_6.jpg
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  • Oct 21, 2013
    andrewket
    I'm in the minority. I use my twin chargers on a regular basis. There are 80A EVSE's at two of our local malls. At home, my super off peak charging window with my utility is only 4 hours long. Without twin chargers, I would not be able to fully charge a battery with a low SOC. I've also had to "emergency" charge twice when my plans changed mid day and I had to charge the car quickly.

    If I was looking for a used MS twin chargers would be on the search criteria.

    Andrew
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  • Oct 21, 2013
    djp
    In Canada most cars are delivered with dual chargers, we have zero SuperChargers but a sea of 70A ESVEs thanks to Sun Country Highway. Tesla unbundled the HPWC for Canadian configurations due to local demand.

    The dual chargers came in handy at a track day last month. We were able to rotate four cars on a 70A station to keep everyone topped up, it would have been impossible to do a full day at 40A.
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  • Oct 21, 2013
    staze
    Thanks for the reassurance JST.
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  • Oct 21, 2013
    JST
    Which malls have 80A EVSE chargers? I'm also in NoVA.
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  • Oct 21, 2013
    andrewket
    Tyson's and Montgomery mall. Tesla HPWCs.
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  • Oct 21, 2013
    JST
    Ah. See, now you'd think that would be something the guy at the store downtown would have known/told me; he gave me the impression that 80A HPWCs were not very common.
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  • Oct 21, 2013
    andrewket
    They aren't. We're just "lucky".
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  • Oct 22, 2013
    brianman
    Just took a look at TN on plugshare. Blink has a quite dominant presence in that state apparently.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I have the same feelings (as you stated in the rest of your post) -- especially given the overhead for post-delivery retrofits.

    - - - Updated - - -

    You guys should do lunch. :)
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  • Oct 22, 2013
    lloyds
    This is going to be different for everyone. I purchased the twin chargers, but have not used it once. It is an insurance policy, but I'd rec looking at the likelihood of its usage.
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  • Oct 22, 2013
    kendallpb
    I'm not sure where you looked, but in addition to the one mentioned by Andrew (Tysons Corner Tesla store), the Omni Hotel in Richmond, VA has a 70-amp J1772 (Tesla-branded, as it happens) charger, which I've used a couple of times.

    I'm happy I got dual chargers, but YMMV. Literally. ;-)
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  • Oct 22, 2013
    Lloyd
    AND............ Tesla (Elon) just offered to provide any hotel that wants an HPWC for public installation the unit for FREE. Get the twin chargers!
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  • Oct 22, 2013
    dhrivnak
    Northern Va is quite different and 400 miles from SW Va where I would drive. I would love to take my Roadster farther but anything over 200 miles requires long charging sessions. But I am glad to hear station are beginning to be rolled out.
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  • Oct 22, 2013
    SFOTurtle
    This is great news. I'm more than happy to give my business to a hotel that installs a HPWC.
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  • Oct 22, 2013
    gaswalla
    if you're staying at the hotel, all you need is a NEMA 14-50 b/c you'll have lots of time and the dual chargers won't make a difference. If the hotel is ok with having folks just stop by and suck up 80kwh of energy, then, yes, the dual chargers will be very nice.
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  • Oct 22, 2013
    kendallpb
    Of course, but you made a blanket statement about not finding any in VA. A bit misleading, that's all I'm saying. I probably wouldn't find any in your area, and once told about them, wouldn't find them useful either. ;-)

    - - - Updated - - -

    If the hotel has valets willing to swap cars around, then a HPWC could be useful to more than one (dual-charger) car overnight. A 14-50 is less likely to be useful to more than one person overnight, though.

    The Omni Hotel in Richmond doesn't mind people using their (pay) garage to charge, whether or not you're a guest. Every hotel's different, though; some have parking only for guests, or might put the charger in a spot that's guest-only. On the other paw, some folks will be more likely to stay at the hotel with the HPWC, versus one next door without a HPWC.

    The last hotel I tried to charge at tried to help but their only outlet was a regular plug that just happened to be outside, and there was something wrong with it (red circle on my charge port, but I've charged fine on regular outlets elsewhere)...I'd be really happy if a hotel in Raleigh took Elon up on this offer, I'm just saying.... ;-)

    - - - Updated - - -

    P.S. By regular outlet, I mean a NEMA 5-15 (~120v). Sorry, I spaced on what it was called.
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  • Oct 22, 2013
    rdrcrmatt
    There was no way I wasn't getting them. I do 200+ miles per day and a 14-50 couldn't charge me in time. I usually get home about 10:30 or 11:00pm and have to leave by 6:30am.

    I configured my car based on being self reliant. Once the superchargers get to this area (Milwaukee / Chicago) they'll be an added bonus / safety net.

    And as far as I know, chademo adapter will bypass on the onboard chargers with the direct DC just like a supercharger. So having twin chargers is not important for chademo charging.
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  • Oct 22, 2013
    Odenator
    1) Yes, the most common power source is 208v/70amp so you will most likely charge at 44 rated mph.

    2) CHAdeMO = DC so bypasses on-board chargers. charge up at 25kW-50kW.

    3) Yup, same as me.

    4) I am surrounded by CHAdeMO in Washington state, $1000 for this convenience is well worth it to me.

    Ultimately as other have pointed out, it depends on where you live and where you think you will want to drive. But since your signature says you have finalized, you probably have already thought long and hard about this.
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  • Oct 22, 2013
    Bifff67
    I bought the duals and the hpwc. Then I realize I can charge all night even with the reduced cost 1-6AM from my power company so I set it back to 40 amps because I am not near empty anyway and the reduced charge rate may extend the battery life. So one charger and a 14-50 would have been fine.

    You are west coast so have more options but so far east coast has little >40amp AC charging, and SC and Chademo are DC and don't use the internal chargers anyway as mentioned previously.

    And you can later add the second charger if you find you want to.

    We'd like to hear your final decision
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  • Oct 22, 2013
    passion4audio
    Thank you, everybody, for your input.

    I've decided I'll remain with the single charger. If I find adding an additional one later on (at a higher price, I understand) then I'll do it... but am thinking I won't be needing it.
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  • Oct 22, 2013
    sp4rk
    Bottom line, for me, was flexibility. I want to be able to charge whereever, whenever, as fast as possible. When I get my new house will get an HPWC.
    You're going to look forlorn when you meet a Tesla buddy and visit their house only to find they have an HPWC.
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  • Oct 22, 2013
    100thMonkey
    This is total speculation on my part but I noticed this down sell technique a while back and I suspect it's part of the training to be very anti salesman when you work for Tesla. I can appreciate this but having already owned and put some miles on an EV before ordering the S, I came to feel like a lot of Tesla employees were giving advice about configuration who really had little to no experience with EV ownership, particularly when it comes to the twin chargers. the two most important things with respect to configuration are, IMHO, size of the battery and speed of charging, if you plan on traveling much. It is true, we are blessed with a growing network of high amperage Level 2 (HAL 2) stations in WA and OR and all across Canada and that effects my sentiment. I opted to get the twin chargers, given that I was giving up gas altogether with the purchase of the S and have a wife and two small children.

    I wouldn't listen to a tesla rep on this one, I'd do some hard thinking about what you expect form the car and how often other people will be traveling with you and having to stand around waiting for it to charge. Even consider the next guy after you, will they have to wait twice as long for the station to be freed up? how would you feel about that if you were in their shoes? if you don't travel much, then no biggie. if you only travel along the major highways where there will be super chargers then no biggie. But I caution anyone, it's all to easy to underestimate just how much you will love driving electric, the S in particular. Chances are you will want to take it on long trips, even longer trips than you do now. once we found out about the Tesla highway that was put in years ago by Roadster owners, it was a no brainer. I've used the twin chargers on nearly every trip I've taken. Without the twin chargers, our trip from Seattle to Spokane this summer would have required many hours at a low amperage L2 station, we would have missed the last ferry to Quadra Island in BC and just simply would not have been able to drive to Santa Cruz. I found early on that idealizing about how we should all be more zen and stop and smell the roses more gets old fast when you are sitting counting the hours, minutes, even seconds till you can unplug and get back on the road, even with the twin chargers. Sometimes it's been really critical, like getting over a mountain pass before a road closure for rock slide control, or catching that last ferry for the night to get to a friends house on an island. Sometimes it's been a matter of arriving home with just enough time to recharge and change to get back on the road for a pick up at the airport or meeting. No matter how filled out the superchargers get, there will always be a need for high amperage L2, even in the home. Giving yourself more options for charging is a good idea when you are giving up 180,000 gas stations nation wide.

    If you live on the west coast, I highly recommend the twin chargers. If you live in a place where there are no HAL 2 chargers now then get the HPWC and the twin chargers if you think you might make this your primary car! Most days you won't need it, but when you really do, it's a serious drag to not be able to get where you want to go in a timely manner. be careful to look far enough into the future with respect to your needs before passing up the chance to get the twin chargers added at a reasonable price. Even if you have none in your state now, it's likely just a matter of time before that changes. the first few years of early adoption go by quickly and the landscape can change surprisingly fast.
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  • Oct 23, 2013
    Al Sherman
    Sounds as if the OP has already decided.

    100thMonkey's advice is sound IMO. You'll drive this car more, and farther just because you want to.

    As far as the down sell technique; I can't say if it's policy, or training, or just whatever individual you speak with. I configured back in the stone age (last year) and my "guy" tried to talk me out of the HPWC. "Need" is very subjective. I certainly don't (and haven't) need the HPWC, or the twin chargers. I got them for the few times during the life of the car that I would WANT them. I firmly believe that at some point in the next x number of years I WILL want them. It's just a personal decision based on how much you think the convenience is worth.

    I drive my car very little compared to most. It's never been out of the "local" area except a trip to investigate the Normal Supercharger. If/when I do it again I think I'd still get the twin chargers AND the HPWC.
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  • Oct 23, 2013
    ecarfan
    I completely agree with 100thMonkey's very compelling arguments for getting twin chargers, and am glad I did.

    Think long term. There will be more high speed charging opportunities in the future.

    Get 'em.
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  • Oct 23, 2013
    bluetinc
    Minor note, a single charger is useful up to 40 Amps, not 50.

    As others have already noted there are a number in the DC area. Unfortunately, the rep you were talking to didn't understand that even his chargers downstairs require twin chargers to fully utilize them. Without twin chargers you will be waiting almost twice as long to charge up at his chargers too.

    Here is a map that is starting to get updated east coast high current chargers listed on it. I'm not sure exactly what the charging landscape will look like in 12 months, but as of today, I use mine regularly on the East Coast.

    Peter

    Tesla Highway - Google Maps
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  • Oct 23, 2013
    Objective1
    Since the OP is taking delivery in August 2014, it takes a real crystal ball to know what will be best. Cha-De-Mo and Supercharging will continue to spread. DC fast charging may become more and more the norm. Overnight at hotels, one doesn't need dual-chargers to recharge.
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  • Oct 23, 2013
    Electric Dreamer
    Hi Passion! I had a similar situation when ordering my Model S. They first asked me how many miles I drive per day...answer 2-3....so I only really needed the 60Kwh battery. However, I told Jeff that I planned on taking roadtrips in the future and wanted to be able to supercharge. I also wanted range. So I opted for the P85 because I wanted the performance package, and range and insisted on the twin chargers.

    Last year I put a total of 7800miles on my ICE (12months). We took delivery of the Model S in late June this year, and I have already put 5800 miles on her (3 1/2 months) . The car makes you want to drive. :love: So you really need to figure out what you plan to do with your Model S in the next 8 years. I Love having the twin chargers, and I still can't get the TeslaGrin off of my face! Hope this helped.
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  • Oct 23, 2013
    qwk
    This statement is very misleading. The majority of the existing HPC/HPWC's in the wild are not going to charge anywhere near 60mph. Most are 208V and will charge mid to low 40's mph vs. 30 mph with a single charger. In other words you will be waiting about 4.5 hrs with twin chargers, vs. 6.5 hrs with a single charger if you want to add 200 miles to the car. On a trip either wait sucks during the day, so I just plan to get to my charging destination before I go to bed. In this scenario, the car is full in the morning whether you have a dual charger or not.

    - - - Updated - - -

    This. Unfortunately, very few hotels will let you charge without booking a room(I have tried).
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  • Oct 23, 2013
    bluetinc
    Excuse me, taking part of my sentence out of context is very misleading. Perhaps you should both read and quote my full sentence before calling me out.

    My full sentence read: "Unfortunately, the rep you were talking to didn't understand that even his chargers downstairs require twin chargers to fully utilize them. Without twin chargers you will be waiting almost twice as long to charge up at his chargers too."


    Furthermore, regardless of voltage, you are incorrectly calculating your numbers. If you show up at an HPWC that can provide 208V at 80A:

    With a single charger, you will charge at about 8,320W, or about 27 miles and hour.
    With dual chargers, will be charging at 16,640 W, or about 55 miles an hour.

    This is most definitely about twice as long.

    Peter


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  • Oct 23, 2013
    Gizmotoy
    Why would the single charger not charge @ its rated 10,000W? Is it because that rating assumes 240V, so if you have a lower voltage you can't fully utilize it? I think that is what qwk was getting at/misunderstanding.
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  • Oct 23, 2013
    brianman
    I only skimmed, but he might be referring to losses.

    Losses aside, let's take a couple examples...

    Example 1a
    S HPWC set @ 80A on 240V
    Twin chargers incoming power 19.2kW

    Example 1b
    S HPWC set @ 80A on 240V
    Single charger incoming power 9.6kW

    Example 2a
    S HPWC set @ 60A on 240V
    Twin chargers incoming power 14.4kW

    Example 2b
    S HPWC set @ 60A on 240V
    Single charger incoming power 9.6kW


    1a vs. 1b:
    (19.2-9.6)/9.6 = 100% faster ("twice as fast")

    2a vs. 2b:
    (14.4-9.6)/9.6 = 50% faster

    Point in my examples: The amperage limit set on the HPWC matters. Single charger will max at 40A not at "half the HPWC setting".


    I believe you can replace "HPWC" with "public J1772" and the same logic applies.
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  • Oct 23, 2013
    bluetinc

    Yes, as Brianman noted, the single charger is limited to 40A, regardless of voltage*. Tesla uses 250Vx40A = 10kW for their numbers, but you only will see 10kW if you are at 250V. At 200V you will only see 8kW. On the flip side, if you happened to be able to connect to a 277V source, you would see 11kW. At home, I see about 246V, so my numbers there are very close to those quoted by Tesla but at public charging stations, I typically see about 195V-205V.


    Brianman, yes, you can replace HPWC with J1772. A J1772 providing up to 40A (almost all tend to be limited at 30A), will appear identical to cars with single or dual chargers. One's that provide above 40A will allow cars with dual chargers to make use the the extra power available above 40A.

    Peter




    * limit of 20A at 120V
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  • Oct 23, 2013
    qwk
    This is your exact quote. Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but how is my quote out of context? Furthermore, I hope that any owner with a single charger that wants to utilize the full 30mph rate is smart enough to pick a NEMA 14-50 over a 208V HPC/HPWC(not really rocket science), as there are literally hundreds of them within any 500-1000 mile stretch of any highway in the US.

    I really don't care if anyone here buys the twin charger or not, but it's better to set their expectations to reality, rather than the best case scenario(which is rare).

    BTW, you have to take voltage drop into account if you are going to calculate mph charging. I have yet to see anywhere near 240V on 80A, while 240V on a Nema 14-50 is pretty common. My personal experience is the higher the load, the more the voltage drop is in most locations(even if the wire gauge is to within code).
    �
  • Oct 23, 2013
    Gizmotoy
    Interesting, thanks for the details. Seems like rating the chargers by max amperage instead of kW in Tesla literature would be more accurate, then, given the limitation is actually in current draw. 10kW sounds better than 40A for the marketing people, though.
    �
  • Oct 23, 2013
    brianman
    You lost me here. Why is a 14-50 better than an HPC/HPWC (set at 40A)?

    I think you're saying that all 14-50 outlets are > 208V which is definitely not the case. I've seen as low as 188V on a 14-50R.
    �
  • Oct 23, 2013
    qwk
    A single charger can only utilize [email�protected] on a 208V HPC. It won't ever go over 40A to compensate(in order to reach 10kw). I have never ran into anything lower than about 230V on a 14-50 pulling 39/40A(about 50 different outlets). Either there is definitely something wrong with the 188V 14-50 that you used, or it was somehow hooked up to 208V.
    �
  • Oct 23, 2013
    bluetinc
    14-50s are wired to 208V sources all the time. There is nothing incorrect in having a 14-50R wired to a 208V source. You will see this at almost all commercial establishments that are fed by three phase power. All 14-50s at Tesla stores I have ever seen have always been 208V along with some RV parks.

    If you have a single charger and you have an HPWC set to >40A and a 14-50 next to it, other than small voltage drops under load due to wire sizing, there will be no difference in charging between them.

    Peter


    �
  • Oct 23, 2013
    Benjamin Brooks
    My HPWC can consistently hit 80A and stay between 247-250V. I'm a happy 20kW camper :biggrin:
    �
  • Oct 23, 2013
    Puyallup Bill
    Sorry to jump way back, but I just read the page 5 post by 100thMonkey. Hit the nail on the head. Just completed several days traveling in northern WA and southern BC, and those dual chargers were a blessing. Roadster HPC, high Amp L2 EVSEs by the north central WA group, and the Sun Country Highway in Canada put the duals to good use.
    �
  • Oct 23, 2013
    Lloyd
    There is a voltage limit also at 252 to 255 volts so you would never see 11 kw with the single charger.
    �
  • Oct 23, 2013
    ElSupreme
    I'm not sure it is really 'sell down' per say. But I think Tesla sales people are supposed to encourage whatever configuration you are leaning towards.

    So if you say skeptically of the two chargers "I am not sure about these twin chargers. Not sure if I would be able to use them. Do you think they are worth the money?" one would get a response stating the second charger isn't all that useful. But a nice to have.

    If you say approvingly of the idea of two chargers "I am not sure about these twin chargers. I really like the idea of charging fast, but are there places to use them? And is it worth $1500 to get the second one?" one would get an answer stating there are plenty of places, and more to come. And that $1500 is a small price to pay for the comfort of being able to charge fast.

    I noticed a sale person singing the praises of leather. Then stating to me they preferred the textile, and that it was the nicest textile he had seen in a car.

    When I sold bikes at REI (non-commission) I would key in on what people wanted, and then tried to sell them that ... so long as it wasn't crap, too expensive (because they would only ride the bike twice before letting it rot in their garage), or was the wrong type of bike.
    �
  • Oct 23, 2013
    qwk
    I guess if one goes to Tesla stores or service centers to bum free electrons, or one is on your frequently traveled route, then the dual chargers may help for now. Tesla is starting to outfit service centers with superchargers, so that a dual charger advantage is not going to last for long.

    A 14-50 next to a HPWC? About the only place I can see finding that scenario apart from an owners home, is a Tesla store or service center.

    Like I said, as long as your expectations are realistic, which seldom means charging at a full double rate of a single charger, one by all means should get the dual charger.
    �
  • Oct 23, 2013
    100thMonkey
    I like the way apple approaches it, rather than try and figure out what people think they want and deliver that, figure out what they don't yet know they will be delighted with and include it. I think the twin chargers should be standard, it's in the don't know you don't know yet category and a super buzz kill to discover after the fact.
    �
  • Oct 23, 2013
    jerry33
    1. Will Twin Chargers benefit me (charge faster) if I pull into a Tesla Service Center for a charge?
    Maybe, depends on what charging options are available. Most just have 14-50 so only a single charger would be involed..

    2. I understand the Super Charging stations bypass the onboard charger, but what about CHAdeMO? Will I benefit there with the Twin Chargers?
    No, they bypass the chargers too.

    3. I'm not a traveling salesman, and when I come home I usually stay home - so no real benefit at home above regular over night charging.
    Correct.

    4. I think some of you may say, hey, if money is no concern then get it... however I don't like to throw $$ away.
    Twin chargers benefit any EVSE that is A/C and over 40 amps. Right now there are only a few places (like Sun Country) that have this kind of EVSE network. However, today is not tomorrow. Many first generation Leaf owners purchased their Leaf without the high power port because there weren't any around then. Now they are regretting not getting them because there are quite a few. Of course you can always have a twin charger installed later, but it's twice the price as getting it installed at the factory. And there will be many routes that don't have either Superchargers or CHAdeMO for many years to come.
    �
  • Oct 23, 2013
    Seven7
    I was also told not to get the twin chargers or HPWC by sales as well, but I got them anyway. Sales also told me not to get the "+" package or the pearl white paint, I followed their advice and am glad I did. ( I don't have anything against the + package, just live in an area where there are no twisting roads )
    �
  • Oct 23, 2013
    Puyallup Bill
  • Oct 23, 2013
    Cottonwood
    I am working on getting 70 and 80 Amp J1772's in the 4-Corners area that Tesla is not supporting with Superchargers. See 4 Corners EV Charging. Tesla is offering free HPWC's to businesses. Service Centers have HPWC's that will provide 80 Amps. I've heard that you talk Tesla into taking the HPWC back. Even if you can't do that, you can probably get $1,000 for a new HPWC. All you need is a 14-50 at home.

    Get the twin chargers! Charging at 50-56 mph vs 25-28 mph will be a real pleasure in the future.

    Enjoy your new Model S!
    �
  • Oct 23, 2013
    Puyallup Bill
    Following is a response I received when I recommended unbundling. Also, the duals and HPWC are not bundled for Canadians.

    Hi William,

    I received your note this morning regarding our new option to bundle the High Power Wall Connector and Twin Charger feature.

    We made this decision in clarify for customers the benefit Twin Charger feature offers, and what it requires. Fortunately, under the circumstance that a customer cannot install the Wall Connector, we will accept a return of the device. This is the only work around we have currently, but I�ll investigate if we can add the Twin Charger into the configuration manually, without addition of the Wall Connector.

    Thanks for sending us the suggestion. If you have any other questions, feel free to contact me.


    Best Regards,
    William Masterson | Ownership Experience Advocate
    3500 Deer Creek Rd. | Palo Alto, CA 94304
    p 877.79.TESLA (877.798.3752) | e [email�protected]
    �
  • Oct 23, 2013
    andrewket
    This is correct. Each charger maxes out at 40A, regardless of voltage. Assuming the EVSE can supply 80A, twin chargers will always charge twice as fast as one.
    �
  • Oct 23, 2013
    100thMonkey
    I've seen as high as 63 mph of added range, the difference is very impressive!

    the one other advantage I have not heard mentioned about the twin chargers is that I can now routinely leave the battery in it's happy place of 50%, knowing that if I get a call or something comes up unexpectedly, I can top up the battery pretty darn fast. One of my goals is to get top performance out of the battery for as long as possible. I've done this with quite a lot of consumer electronics and it can make a huge difference in terms of longevity and overall performance so until someone can prove to me otherwise, I'm assuming the same approach will prove fruitful with the batteries in the S.
    �
  • Oct 23, 2013
    brianman
    Also, as I recently became keenly aware of ...
    If you're charging faster that means you can unplug faster when, say, a storm comes through and you want to leave your car unplugged while the grid is twitching.
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    Electric1

    Agreed. 100th is spot on. My only further consideration is (after >20 k miles) is that this is likely a car that will last you a very long time into the uncertain, and, with respect and credit to Dr. Moore, in a world of exponentially growing technology and infrastructure. I doubt that you will regret the upfront purchase, but respect your acceptance of the cost trade off of adding later. Good luck and enjoy, as there is no wrong answer off the ct is a model s.
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    ckessel
    FWIW, I didn't get the 2nd charger because there would be almost no reason for me to use it. I5 is already now covered from BC to Mexico. There's nowhere I travel long distances that isn't SC enabled at this point. It's likely I'd use the 2nd charger somewhere at some point, but I'd be spending hundreds of dollars per hour of time saved. No where even remotely worth it.
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    ToddRLockwood
    You'll find 70-80A charging at most Tesla galleries and service centers. Having that second charger has saved me hours of waiting at the Boston service center.
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    Crispix
    They aren't on commission. They're really trying to do what's best without any other motive. So in this rep's mind, the second charger is a low priority and unnecessary extra cost for the majority of MS buyers. (I happen to agree with him, but that's not the point.)

    So I think that answers the question of "why" -- whether they should be upselling or downselling options or not is a conversation for another thread.
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    lloyds
    That's right. Here in California it's not much of an issue for faster charging since the SC network is growing rapidly.
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    AmpedRealtor
    ^^ this!
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    Gizmotoy
    And, at least in the larger cities, CHAdeMO is starting to infiltrate as well for fast-but-not-quite-Supercharger-fast fill-ups.
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    bluetinc
    Hi Lloyd,

    What limit are you referring to? I've charged close to that, and well above that (278-281V) but I don't think I've ever been in that exact range. What happens?

    Peter
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    Lloyd
    The Roadster chargers used to have an upper voltage limit of around 252 to 255 volts. They would not allow charging above that range. I assumed that they used the same parameters for the Model S. If you have charged at that voltage I guess that is wrong.
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    TonyWilliams
    The Model S 40 amp charger can handle 277 volts (one phase of 480 volt commercial power), however it doesn't change above 10kW as a single charger.

    At 250 volts * 40 amps = 10 kW

    At 277 volts, max amps is 36 = 10kW
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    TylerCA
    I purchased this purely for those rare moments that may come up when I need it. Several more days to taking delivery. :)
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    passion4audio
    OP here.

    Upon further contemplation, I've decided to go with the Twin Charger "package".

    My Mom used to like saying, "Better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it."

    Thanks for the compelling points on both sides!
    �
  • Oct 24, 2013
    Puyallup Bill
    Good.

    Just the first one or two on the road charges at 70 Amps will set your mind at ease as to the decision.
    �
  • Oct 25, 2013
    Ben W
    I got the dual charger, for two reasons: first, it was included in the Signature price. Second, I have a legacy Roadster HPC at home that charges at 70 amps :D But that just begs the question.

    If I had it to do all over again, I would probably go with a NEMA 14-50 outlet in the garage, a much lower electrician's bill, and a single-charger (if there had been a discount to do so with the Sig). In five years of Roadster/S ownership, I can count on one hand the number of times I've needed a >40-amp charge, not counting an LA - SF roadtrip that could now be done with superchargers. And while it's been nice on occasion to provide some juice to other Roadster/S owners, they could have survived perfectly well on 40 amps. Some of the S's that have stopped by have had single-chargers anyway.

    So I think the single-charger is a perfectly valid option. Whatever you decide, you're going to absolutely love your new car!
    �
  • Oct 25, 2013
    ElSupreme
    I agree with your 'being informed' stance. But honestly my home breaker panel couldn't handle a 100A circuit for a HPWC. There are NO >40A charging locations anywhere near Atlanta. So I only wanted a single charger. It meets all my charging needs.

    If I had the second charger unit, I would NEVER end up using it.
    �
  • Oct 28, 2013
    neroden
    No. [Edit: I see I am mistaken and many, though not all, Service Centers have 70-80 amp charging.]
    Bypasses onboard chargers.
    No.
    Correct.

    I recommend twin chargers for people who plan to drive to Canada because of the long string of Sun Country Highway 90 amp chargers in Canada. Tesla is never going to put in that many Superchargers across low-population Canada. The same may end up being true in regions adjacent to Canada as Sun Country Highway is moving in on the US, starting with the northern border states.

    It really depends on where you plan to take your car.
    �
  • Oct 28, 2013
    Puyallup Bill
    Excellent point. Recently spent several days in northern WA and southern BC. Those CS-90s sure are nice compared to our normal 30 Amp J1772s.
    �
  • Oct 28, 2013
    lloyds
    Like a condom. Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it. I play it safe and I got the twin chg
    �
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