Dec 16, 2013
paco3791 With the upcoming installation of a super charger(SC) at the new service center in Highland Park, IL (see this thread http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/24986-Highland-Park-IL-Service-Center! for more details) I will have a SC that is almost directly on my route to work everyday. This means that I could use the SC as a part of my daily commute and cut out charging at home almost entirely. My commute is roughly 30 miles one way with the SC closer to work than home. With all that in mind I'm curious about a couple things.
- Is anyone doing this already? I have to imagine there are other Model S drivers that are in a similar situation.
- What effect, if any, do we think this will have on the long term health of the battery? I haven't seen anything on the forums or from Tesla about the effects of frequent use of the SC's.
- Would Tesla care? IF I decided to try this I think I would talk with the folks at the service center first and my guess is they wouldn't care but who knows.
I want to re-emphasize this is something I could do, not sure it's something I will do. I definitely plan to use the SC since it's so conveniently located but even with that, it's not as convenient as just charging when I get home, so I'm not sure the extra 15-20 mins added to my commute would really be worth it. And while there would be some savings on my elec. bill from not charging at home as much, it isn't a huge number.
Thoughts?�
Dec 16, 2013
iffatall I am getting my car this weekend, and am kinda in a similar situation.
My total commute per day is around 40 miles, and I do not have a charger installed at home yet. There is a supercharger on my way to work. So as of now, I am planning to charge at the supercharger weekly at least for the first month or two.
I am pretty sure Tesla does not care, but I too would want to ensure this does not affect the battery adversely.�
Dec 16, 2013
islandbayy Superchargers are meant as a in route charger for distance travel. Not as a replacement for daily charging. Placement of the SC's are (at least at this time) meant to enable people to go the long distances. I know, if I go to Chicago from Milwaukee, and want to do any kind of in town driving, I will need the SC TO GET HOME. If you can make your round trip, with no issues and still make it home, with charge to spare, then the SC is not meant to be used. Now, if you have a busy day, lots of errands to do, and you find you will run out or get uncomfortably low before doing your daily home charge, by all means, GO FOR IT! But, using it daily so that you don't need to plug in at home, please do not do this. This will just take up space at the (currently) few superchargers that are in operation. Safe the SC's for people the NEED them to get to their destination or home. For the time you will be wasting as well, your not saving much. It costs me $3 (almost exact!) to COMPLETELY recharge my 60kW battery from completely dead to 100% range charge at home. Your not saving enough to make your time worth it.
Also, given that you'd be doing it daily, you will always be closer to your full state of charge, meaning, the SC will charge your car SLOWER! to charge from say, 70% to get to 90%, your talking almost the same amount of time it would have taken to get from 10% to 70% (Rough example).
Now, iffatall, in your case, if you do not have means to plug in at home, and would be doing it temporally, go for it. I would recommend waiting to SC until your battery is a bit lower in charge, that way you can take advantage of the full SC charging speed. Please also concider charging at times when commuters that NEED the SC are at less demand of the units, or even possibly, find a level 2 station close to home.�
Dec 16, 2013
paco3791 All valid arguments. This is more of a thought experiment than anything I personally intend to implement on a daily basis (charging at home is just that easy!). It will be interesting to see how busy this particular SC gets with the number of MS's in the northern 'burbs of Chicago.
Aside from the state of charge issue do we know how close the 120kW charging gets to the max charge rate for the battery?�
Dec 16, 2013
JohnQ Ignoring the social behavior/contract component of the argument, I just think the logistics will be a huge negative. At first it will be fun, watching the miles tick up (although at an ever slower rate as your SOC increases). Plus you can sit in the car and muck around with the technology. Then, after a while it will become tedious. Then a PITA.
I have charged at the Darien chargers (I literally pass within 100 yards of them every day on my commute) exactly 3 times. Once to test it out and twice because I wanted a quick bite to eat on the drive home from the airport and it was convenient. There's no way I would increase my commute by 25-30% on a regular basis to use the SC.�
Dec 16, 2013
scaesare This.
And, as others said, it's not a practice that really fits in with what Tesla has stated publicly their goal for them is.
I certainly would want to go by and TRY it once just for the fun of it (and to validate supercharging works on my car before the first long trip)... but after that, let the folks on trips use em. You'll appreciate others doing the same when you need one on a road trip 200 miles from home...�
Dec 16, 2013
jeffhre If you use 120V while you are sleeping and use the supercharger once a week or so until you get a charger at home sounds about ideal, no?
Though I wouldn't want to get out of my car for an extra stop several times a week ad infinitum, to save a few pennies. If that was the case, why waste money with a Model S, when a bicycle will do the same commute for vastly less, and no stops for charging, or the hassle of putting in a charger at home - ever.�
Dec 16, 2013
caddieo Well stated. This is exactly what I did when the Port Orange SC opened - once out of curiosity and twice to top off on the way home from Orlando. Haven't been there for almost 2 months.�
Dec 16, 2013
Zextraterrestrial I met a man at the Folsom(CA) SC in April with 16k miles on his car ( in 3 months) he worked in Folsom but lived 160 miles south and put > 300 miles on his car daily
Awesome gas savings!
I agree with the others though that charging at home is way easier. Occasional SC if you do shop locally at an SC location (no shops I want to shop at near Folsom SC though...all commyjunk)
last year I tried to use local chargers some but the $ savings over convenience isn't worth it at all.�
Dec 16, 2013
SamGarber I have over 3000 miles on the car already only 6 weeks into ownership. Supercharged 3 times so far, twice more planned in the next 2 days. Mostly Tesla stores, garages where work pays and some small amount to top up at home.�
Dec 16, 2013
swegman Keep in mind that Tesla can determine if you abuse the Superchargers. I was at the Rocky Mount NC SC last week and had a problem. Called Tesla to report the problem. They were able to determine which charger port my car was attached to and the VIN of my car without me providing that info. When I said something to the Tesla SC rep, he told me that the log shows every SC I have visited and the results of each charge, including the charge level I did.
If you make a habit of charging at one SC on a regular basis, Tesla will know and may say something, especially as more cars get on the roads. The SC are meant for driving between long distances, not to replace home charging.�
Dec 16, 2013
roblab Just to say it, when I hear about people who drive over from home to charge just to save a buck or two, and they are sitting in this $75,000 car, it sort of does not compute. They can't afford to put in an outlet at home (come on, it doesn't even require a "charger" like the other EVs!) and it will charge on 110.
If I were to pull into a SC area and it was full and I had to wait, and then found out that one of them was just there to save a dollar, I just might think some unsanitary thoughts that direction.
It has to be a personality thing. I couldn't do it.�
Dec 16, 2013
qwk This is probably not that good of an idea(especially if you are trying to save a few dollars on home electricity). Risking degredation on a $45k battery to save a dollar or two is crazy.�
Dec 16, 2013
PhilBa I still think this is a non-problem. Tesla didn't place any conditions on SC usage other than must have a Model S. I sure didn't read anything about it in the purchase contract. So if some guy buys a $75K (more likely 100K) MS and cheaps out on charging, that's his prerogative. I wouldn't waste the extra time just to save a few bucks and suspect most are like me. So, it's probably a diminishly small number of skin-flints. And, as much as I would think the guy had truly misplaced priorities, it's his call. This is America, after all.�
Dec 16, 2013
scaesare In short: No... without knowing Tesla's exact battery chemistry we don't know for sure.
But, given that fact that the current superchargers are 120's, and Elon has publicly mentioned 135's... I suspect it's gotta be getting close. Already some folks have claimed they have had their cooling systems activate full-bore while supercharging... ostensibly the BMS trying to keep the pack cool.
I'd assume if the battery could accept 2C+, it wouldn't make sense to roll out 120kW superchargers, only to then have them outmoded by the 180's, and thus need to be replaced.�
Dec 16, 2013
NoMoGas No they won't, nor can they. The SC service is advertised as unlimited, not under certain circumstances, unlimited. I have no doubt they will use the data to plan roll out, expansion, future pricing but wile it may get some people;s panties in a bunch the reality is if you paid for it, you can use it whenever you darn well feel like it. That said, try to be courteous.
- - - Updated - - -
Exactly. Is it smart? No... but he's welcome to if he so chooses.�
Dec 16, 2013
scaesare Yeah, but as you alluded to, we can try and influence the social norms around this very new environment to lean towards the side courtesy.�
Dec 16, 2013
yobigd20 There are not many of us in the 30k+ miles clubI only know of about 6 including myself. But one of those I think had 35k or 40k already. If I recall him and his wife split usage (drops him off at work then does her daily thing then picks him up etc etc something like that), and they travel something like 300 miles daily. They use the supercharger not once, but twice daily. It was on these forums somewhere...
I myself drive 210 miles daily and I can't make it round trip on a single charge. I charge at home to 80% which is about 200 rated miles and drive 100 miles to work leaving me at 15-60 rated left. This uses anywhere from 38-50kW and varies depending on traffic, speed, weather, and heat. and I drive fast. Btw yes those number are right, I've used up to 50kW go 100 miles (500kW/mile avg) a few times (and that's not even counting charging efficiency from the wall). So technically it pulls up close to 60kW sometimes.
When I reach my garage in the city I then plug in on a charge point and charge back up to 80% and repeat the 100 mile trek back home. . So I do charge at home and at a parking garage in the city. I try to keep it within the 80% -> 20% range always. I basically do a little more than two half cycles daily.
But there is a supercharger about to go under construction on my route. I use about 2500kW per month for the car alone with all the mileage I do and we do not have discount rates like you guys got out there in CA. So there's a very likely chance I might switch to SCing daily if it saves me about $350-$425/month in electricity. I wouldn't 100% charge solely there and not charge anywhere else (not talking about range charge, but amount of time spent charging at home vs SC). I'd probably calculate and time the charges in a way that I'd stop there once daily to charge from 15-85% and be on my way. Aka do something like schedule a charge at 40A and hour before I leave which would be enough to get me to the SC - in other words structure it in a way to maximize the free electrons while still keeping the battery somewhat around that safe zone (non-extremities). I'd probably park somewhere cheaper too if I don't need to charge at the garage anymore. Anywho the exact details of all that I would need to run but the point being is that I might consider doing this daily to save a few hundred bucks a month.
AFA it's effect on battery , all my research and even comments from Tesla employees and managers say that supercharging is the worst thing you could do for your battery outside of bricking it by leaving it dead or damaging it by leaving it at 100% in scorched weather. But Tesla's "official" word is that it's safe and the battery is warrantied and not to worry about it soooo the jury's still out on that one. Who knows.
I realize opinions on this will be very subjective. Some would say I could just continue what I'm doing now and not use the SC. Others would say "hey, we paid for it". Some might say "it's all free energy anyway so who cares?" (Assuming of course Tesla builds all those solar arrays). But who draws the line? Is there a specific mile have amount that warrants it being 'ok'? Or is it the purpose of your trip? Weekend leisure travel vs daily commute? Inter city driving vs "it's on the way home"? What if your like me and its a daily commute but it's far as hell and honestly I go past several cities daily? lol.
IMO there are no clear day and night rules here. The other thing to consider is that these superchargers on the easy coast go mostly unused unlike CA. The only competition we have out here for the supercharger spots is against a-hole ICE vehicles hogging the spots because they are too lazy to walk 10 feet further (and that IS a problem out here, and there have been a few very close road rage/fist fight incidents with these ICE drivers bc of that). While CA superchargers , well specific ones, seem to be used 24/7 I can see how a daily commuter would annoy travelers if all the spots are always taken. But for the time being that's going to take another year or so out here to get up to those levels...�
Dec 16, 2013
Canuck I'll stay out of the SC 'hogging' discussion except to say that I no longer think my 30 minute commute to work is so bad.�
Dec 16, 2013
yobigd20 ha, 30 miles to me would feel like going to the grocery store.�
Dec 16, 2013
montgom626 60 miles a day? You will spend hardly any time at the SC. 20kW-25kW per day? me? I would just charge at home. And if you do use the SC, then you would spend 10-15 minutes at the SC a day. You will not impose on anyone. Have fun, use the SC. Don't worry about what others think. Using the SC sounds like it would get old after awhile.
I look forward to what you think out about using a SC. Keep us in the loop! We want to know the pros and cons of using a SC.
PS Make sure you plug in at home to keep the battery warm. 120v at 12 amps will do just fine.�
Dec 17, 2013
Chipper ^^This^^
I don't know that I would do it every day. And I would give way to others if the SC were crowded. Otherwise I would certainly imbibe on the generosity, and do so with thankfulness!�
Dec 17, 2013
jchangyy Man, where do you people live? and work? I have a 5 mile commute and my wife has a 1 mile commute. I can't imagine spending an hour+ each way sitting in a car....�
Dec 17, 2013
Tacket Word - but if you had to, the Model S would be a fine vehicle to do it in!�
Dec 17, 2013
yobigd20 south jersey to NYC. equivalent cost of housing is about 4x higher than where I live now. aka the value of my 2600sq ft house & 1 acre of ground wouldn't even buy me a 900sq ft apt up there.
exactly. just one of the rationale's I used to justify spending $100k on a car... 5 hrs in a car per day. its like a 2nd home.�
Dec 17, 2013
Forty Creek Depends on the ambient temperature. 120 volts at 12 amps will not keep the regen limit from kicking in, in below freezing temperatures no matter how long it is plugged in. Just saying.�
Dec 17, 2013
paco3791 This! +1
- - - Updated - - -
thanks for chiming in yobigd20! I really think the key here is just to be courteous. Leave contact info in the window when using a SC so if someone has an emergency use case and all the stalls are full you can be accommodating. This is a great resource we've invested in and if we work together we can all use it for whatever our own purposes are without getting in each others way.
this part is particularly interesting to me though:
If you wouldn't mind linking to some of your research sources I would appreciate it. From my limited knowledge set it seems like charge voltage and the cell temp are the key to preventing any degradation of the battery during charging as long as you stay some where in the 1-2C charge rate area. Assuming Tesla knows all this the super chargers should be able to stay in the "safe" range of the pack. I would guess that the number charge cycles involved in using SC's frequently would have a bigger impact on long term battery life but that is purely a guess. Maybe I'm naive but I would think Tesla would put the word out on this, like they have with Range charges, if this was really an issue.�
Dec 17, 2013
rlang59 Really? Which one did that happen at?�
Dec 17, 2013
wycolo > Depends on the ambient temperature. 120 volts at 12 amps will not keep the regen limit from kicking in, [Forty Creek]
But I think it allows charging to start 'instantly' like when you decide at the last minute to make a day trip and find you need a quick extra 100 miles. Today 27*F I brought the S in from out in the field, plugged it in and was faced with a 17 amp (out of 30A available) interminable waiting period. Don't know how long it took 'preparing to charge' but that is wasted time I could have avoided by keeping it always plugged in. As Montgom626 says, keep it plugged in, any plug will do.
--�
Dec 17, 2013
yobigd20 I remember reading at least two different incidents. One of them was Howard at the Delaware supercharger. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/tesla-owners-of-nj/Delaware/tesla-owners-of-nj/9cxKskfD_rs/TO_41TX4zQMJ
and some follow up with George B here: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/tesla-owners-of-nj/Delaware/tesla-owners-of-nj/q5FA5KGHW9M/uwOmetAK4c4J who said 'What you are describing is an unfortunate situation that we are aware of. It does not happen much, but it has happened now and then'�
Dec 17, 2013
EdA I met a MS owner in CT at one of the superchargers who has a 100-mile commute and he claims to supercharge everyday for 15 or 20 minutes. He makes a work phone call while charging. I'm sure Tesla knows all about his habits.�
Dec 17, 2013
montgom626 I live in a state where I can get a kWh for 5 cents. My property taxes have dropped. And where traffic jams are not a way of life. Also, I ride my bicycle to work. Also, I did not have my sales tax increase by .25%.�
Dec 17, 2013
Chris Quick, how do I get there?�
Dec 17, 2013
rlang59 Crazy.�
Dec 17, 2013
lloyds I've been supercharging 3-4 times (range) per week and currently close to 12k miles So far I have not seen any effect on the range. I typically dial into 70% for the SC and trickle at night.�
Dec 17, 2013
iffatall Yes, I am planning to get the charging station installed in a few weeks time. It is taking some time because I live in a rented apartment, and have to resolve certain issues about circuit breaker availability. And as I mentioned in my original post, I am indeed planning to charge only once a week at the supercharger.
What I really meant to ask (and thought the OP was asking too) was whether charging only at the supercharger, not 100% range charge but up to the regular 90% limit, will harm the battery. I noticed some posts above did mention it. Is there any official information about this, or is there any evidence from people who have charged at superchargers too often?
I totally agree that charging at home is ALWAYS more convenient, does not cost much at all, and I personally would not want to wait at the supercharger charging on a regular basis. But whether it is a good idea and whether it is courteous to prefer to charge at superchargers instead of at home, is a separate discussion in my opinion. As far as whether Tesla would mind, again, I don't think they care.�
Dec 17, 2013
DrComputer Just because Tesla has said that the SuperChargers will be "free for life" doesn't mean they won't implement some restrictions. I can see them implementing a policy that limits the number of times the same SuperCharger can be used in a month or year. This would eliminate the problem of those people who try to use them as "personal" chargers. Such a restriction would not hamper their use as road-trip chargers as they are intended to be.�
Dec 17, 2013
montgom626 The title of the thread is "SuperCharge every day?"�
Dec 17, 2013
yobigd20 but what if your job is to road trip every day? what constitutes a road trip vs a hell of a long ass commute or daily intercity travel? I doubt there will ever be any restrictions. If the SCs get used that much, they'll build more or start to actually use the battery swapping machines.�
Dec 17, 2013
Chipper Uhhh...yeah...I did read that...???�
Dec 17, 2013
EdA If your job is to road trip every day, you shouldn't necessarily be supercharging 10 minutes from home every day.�
Dec 17, 2013
Galve2000 personally I think yobigd20's usage of the SCs falls within the original intent that Telsa had for the SCs. He just happens to do this "road trip" on a daily basis (poor guy!!).
I do think that one day Telsa will start restricting use of the SCs somehow but this is a long, long way off and many of you will be on your 3rd or 4th Tesla vehicle by then. Also, the EV landscape will be very, very different than what it is today and it will be more obvious that in the absence of having to pay for SC each time you use it, other restrictions will be needed b/c there are not enough SC sto fit demand. Again that is a long way off. For now, dear ealy-adaptors, enjoy your unrestricted use of SCs as u see fit, and don't worry so much about who is getting more "free" stuff or VFM on their $2,000 SC access fee.
some�
Dec 17, 2013
Chipper Really?? Why??? At what distance would you find it acceptable?�
Dec 17, 2013
stopcrazypp There's a very simple definition that gets to the root of the problem:
If you can replace that SC session with daily overnight charges at home, then the SC probably is not used as intended.
Road trips are such that you don't really have a viable option other than public charging. Commutes (long or otherwise) can generally be covered with home charging without ever touching a public station.
If your daily commute stretches so long that you must charge at a supercharger or other public station to make it home, that's a different matter, but that still falls under the intended use case (as you aren't simply choosing the supercharger just to avoid paying for electricity).�
Dec 17, 2013
EdA The superchargers are intended for enabling road trips.
If your daily commute is 120 miles away and you're recharging at a supercharger
10 miles from home you're gaming the system IMO. If you're supercharging 100
miles away on your daily commute I'd say this is valid usage.
The supercharging page (Supercharger | Tesla Motors) doesn't spell out any restrictions however.�
Dec 17, 2013
Chipper I am not trying to provoke you (or anyone else for that matter) but where does it spell out that superchargers are "intended for enabling road trips"? I think you probably assume that to be true based on their locations but "valid usage" to me would be convenience and cost savings. It looks as though I will not even have a supercharger within driving distance for a year or two, but if one ever does get within range I intend to use it to best advantage. I bought my MS primarily for these kinds of savings. Maybe when I get my $2000 worth...�
Dec 17, 2013
WarpedOne The only restriction is common sense.
Who in their right mind would stop for half an hour just 10 minutes from home when not out of charge/range?
Every day?
Very special people only.�
Dec 17, 2013
EdA From: Supercharger | Tesla Motors
ROAD TRIPS MADE EASY
Tesla Superchargers allow Model S owners to travel for free between cities along well-traveled highways in North America and Europe. Superchargers provide half a charge in about 20 minutes and are strategically placed to allow owners to drive from station to station with minimal stops.
:
:
Why is it free?
We want to encourage Model S owners to take road trips.
It never says anywhere "why should you charge at home?".
/Ed�
Dec 17, 2013
yobigd20 it also says:
There. Especially that last line. Free to use the network as much as they like. I think that answer's everybody's question. Have at it!�
Dec 17, 2013
scaesare I think this litmus test is pretty reasonable. It moves the equation to one based on need, versus simply avoiding having to pay for ones own daily driving usage.
There's the spirit of the law, vs. the letter of the law. Certainly Tesla is not restricting usage with any particular verbiage or mechanism, but as EdA's quote from the Tesla site indicates, they are there to enable road trips. A number of Elon's comments regarding the supercharger infrastructure also were to the point of "removing obstacles for longer trips".
So, is Tesla expressly forbidding using the superchargers today so a person can avoid paying for electricity for normal driving? No. If enough people do it, will it force them to reconsider in the future? Probably.�
Dec 17, 2013
jerry33 Very hard to have decent affordable housing and a decent job in under 25 miles one-way here in DFW. Anyway, every time I've moved closer to work the office has moved so i don't even try for close anymore. There are a number of folks where I work that drive 90 miles one-way.�
Dec 17, 2013
lloyds I agree with yobigd20. Everyone's use and conditions are different. I don't foresee Tesla to limit # of uses with the sc.�
Dec 17, 2013
stopcrazypp Nice succinct way of putting it. Right now the chargers aren't utilized enough for it to be a huge issue even if some people are "freeloading". However, when it does, it'll be other drivers complaining (as has happened in Gilroy) which will force Tesla to do something (either expand number of chargers, or when that's not possible, restrictions on charging).�
Dec 17, 2013
Aussie 90% of my charging is at the local supercharger. At home I only plug in 110v at 6amps to feed the car a bit. I don't even have any charging equipment at home.
Depends on how much electricity cost I guess. So if you live in Germany, you are paying about USD0.40 per KW/h. People with high usage in the area I live in can easily pay USD0.35 per KW/h. So filling up 70KW/h or so costs USD 25, more that that if you live in Germany. Now that gets me about 200 miles (The same in an ICE car would be about 7 gallons at $3.5 per gallon = $25).
If I would be living in Washington State and pay $5 to fill my car I would not spend time at a supercharger. But at $25 things start to add up.�
Dec 17, 2013
Kaivball "Customers are free to use the network as much as they like"
/thread�
Dec 18, 2013
Kraken Great, we can all agree on this Internet forum that charging at a supercharger to avoid paying a higher electrical bill is wrong. Hooray for us, but tesla is selling this car to the common public, not just us. The common public is used to filling up at stations frequently anyway. This will happen quite frequently (and already does at a lot of locations, like Folsom). I understand it can be frustrating for some, but realistically those who are filling up 40 miles won't be there any longer than a gas pump, and it won't add much to their daily commute either.
quite frankly, while I don't know if I will switch to this method when vacaville opens up (probably a moot point because I'll likely move to the Roseville area soon in the next six weeks.... But when that one opens up....), I think it is a really easy thing to do.
in my current situation, I would drive to and from work daily for about a whole work week (I use about 30 miles a day), and then once a week I would get dinner over by the superchargers which will be on may way home if I go a slightly longer route.... I have wasted zero time as I had to eat anyway. It would save me 100 or maybe even 200 dollars a month, and it wouldn't inconvenience me at all. My car would only be there once a week for an hour, so it wouldn't really be too disruptive, and it would take one out of 8 stalls for an hour. I would be using .07% of the available supercharging ability of the station, and I wouldn't feel guilty.
while I don't really plan on doing that, I really don't see it as a big deal in most places. It really would be more hindering when this is employed by people who use that whole range daily, but I can't blame them either, because they are likely paying $25 a day in electricity. That's $500 a month, which is huge. Those same people were likely paying $600 a month or more for gas for the same driving in an ice. Now by switching to a model s, they can save nearly enough to pay the monthly payment on an s60.
no point fighting it, because as there are more on the road, this will happen frequently.
tesla put the superchargers out there to enable road trips, but not solely for road trips.�
Dec 18, 2013
yobigd20 No. You paid for the superchargesr. "Free for life". "Free to use it as much as you like". This money was paid , real money, to crowdfund the supercharger network, which includes the solar arrays for free sustainable energy. You paid for I it. You have the right to use it as much as you'd like for any purpose whatsoever, including free energy from the sun and to avoid charging at home since that power likely comes from a fossil fuel burning plant. Tesla's purpose is all about helping sustainable energy and travel. How are we going to achieve that if we continue to "fuel" the cars from coal burning power plants? If anything, Tesla would be encouraging this. It would seem contradictory otherwise.�
Dec 18, 2013
paco3791 Great find! This is what I get for speculating and not going back to the source and you know... reading. Glad I could stoke some "lively" discussion though.�
Dec 18, 2013
rlang59 This is a silly argument. Use the Superchargers however you want but trying to use that as justification is just silly, especially when it comes down to it the reason it is being done is to not have to pay for it on your electric bill. I do wonder though how some of these posters who have no problem with people using them instead of charging at home will feel when they start having to wait an hour to use it when they actually need them.�
Dec 18, 2013
montgom626 I think we should wait until we know it is a problem. My guess is most folks will tire of using a SC to do their daily charge. Sitting at an SC is boring.�
Dec 18, 2013
paco3791 Simple, lets as a community agree that we are all going to be considerate and not let that happen. If someone else needs to charge when you have other options, give way for that person. I would love to see Tesla integrate a messaging service at SC's or even a simple notification system, like ChargePoint has for there chargers, so you can go online and see which plugs are in use and which ones aren't.
Hopefully this will be an issue eventually, regardless of the commute charging, because that will mean a huge number of Tesla's on the road! Which will hopefully push expansion of the SC network.�
Dec 18, 2013
WarpedOne After buying a 100k car you rather spend a few hours of your free time waiting on charging than paying 25$ for the night charge?
Not me, I value my free time higher than 25$.�
Dec 18, 2013
scaesare Certainly lots of folks are of the opinion that the wording on Tesla's web page does not prohibit using supercharging specifically to avoid having to pay your own electrical costs. And technically they are right. That's the letter of the law.
But I don't think it's the spirit of the law. Just because something is not prohibited does not mean the usage aligns with the intent of the provider. Tesla has always discussed supercharging as removing the obstacle to "long distance travel" and take a "road trip" (Elon's words), where you don't have alternative typical destination-style charging available. Note the description on Tesla's web site regarding supercharging on the Model S page:
Now, folks may want to make the argument that a long commute is a road trip. I tend to disagree if you could reasonably arrange for facilities to charge on a regular/daily basis. If you can do that, and instead are using superchargers just to avoid paying electrical costs even if it's several hundred dollars, (after all, cost of commute is part of considering a job), then my opinion is that you using the system in a way that Tesla was not really intending.
As an example: hotels provide free ice for guests. In several situations I'm aware of where our large organization was arranging for a convention, it became obvious that some guests were using the ice machines to fill their coolers for the activity the next day. It only took a small percentage of folks abusing that resource to cause problems for the vast majority of the rest of the folks.
Was that usage expressly prohibited? No. Was it a problem to do as it wasn't in line with what was intended? Yes.
And therein lies the rub: The usage of superchargers other than for what's intended will not scale well.
Most people probably take road trips every few months on average. If it's every 50 days on average, Tesla needs to accommodate 2% of Model S users concurrently, spread out over the common travel hours of a given day. If instead just 5% of folks supercharge every day, and likely during commute hours, then the load at those times could easy be 10x what Tesla has planned for. If you keep biting the hand that feeds you, sooner or later you are going to regret it.
So, I'm under no delusions that people will go to whatever means to save a buck, but I think it's unfortunate. And although it has to do with HPWC charging at a Tesla Gallery location no longer being offered, I find one of the factors leading to that decision telling, according to Lump: "I was told some locals were abusing the privledge & leaving their cars there all day long so they were forced to close it off to all".
I fear similar will happen with supercharging over time if folks abuse the system.�
Dec 18, 2013
Aussie A very valid argument. So it comes down to how much one values ones time and also what you are doing while charging. If you are performing work which otherwise you would be doing anyway then things might make more sense compared to just waiting for grass to grow.�
Dec 18, 2013
Kraken
Eh... I think you didn't read the rest of my post which I spent refuting my opening statement in a similar manner that you did.
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Not if they concurrently do something they normally need to do, like get dinner once a week or make a business call.�
Dec 18, 2013
Trnsl8r I would just like to add that it would be super-nice if the mobile app had a function to alert you when the charge was done (or better yet, close to done). It should help avoid drivers occupying spots without charging, which can happen at Gilroy and other shopping friendly locations.�
Dec 20, 2013
brianman This has to be at least the 4th thread on this exact subject.�
Dec 20, 2013
paco3791 I'm sure your right, though I hadn't seen anything recently, though I've mainly been trolling the model S forum so I probably didn't see it if it was elsewhere. Nothing new under the sun, especially on a forum that's getting as big as this one.�
Dec 20, 2013
gg_got_a_tesla I'd argue that Supercharging as the primary or the predominant way of getting juice on a regular basis - and thus avoiding charging at home as much as possible - is fundamentally no different than using free charging options at your workplace, your friendly neighborhood grocery store, community center etc. I'd think that the Model S, being a big battery BEV, would rarely need to be plugged in at these non-home charging locations unless the driver's stopping by while on a roadtrip. All the same, I plugin at such locations all the time (hopefully not at the expense of a smaller-range EV who may have then missed out on that spot) as I see it as a perk that those businesses/facilities are offering to attract my patronage.
As long as one's respectful of waiting cars and move the car promptly once done charging (enough), I'd say go for it; it's part of Tesla's promise to you of free lifetime supercharger access. There's no absolute right or wrong here.�
Dec 20, 2013
KJD Supercharging every day sounds like a great way to wear out the battery pack in a hurry.�
Dec 21, 2013
AmpedRealtor Only if you max charge, otherwise you can charge to the typical 80% "standard" charge level and be fine. The rate at which the battery charges does not degrade the battery in any appreciable way.�
Dec 21, 2013
Ocelot I personally feel Tesla should institute limits going forward. To be fair I think they would have to grandfather in all the people who have reserved or bought a Tesla already with no limit supercharging. The reasoning lies with the scale of things we all hope to see in the next 5- 10 years. Hopefully Tesla's will be everywhere. Hopefully the model E is offered with supercharging capabilities even as an option.
One person said previously if they supercharge they will save 300 plus dollars a month! ...now if you scale up to include much more of the population, this all of a sudden is not the anomaly but the norm of all the people who are using the chargers. Meaning Tesla will be paying that ( I highly doubt solar is going to be 100% at all the superchargers). I do not feel that wouldbe beneficial for the long term sustainability of the company.�
Dec 21, 2013
qwk There is little doubt that supercharging is harder on the battery. The only question is how much?
At $40k+ per battery, that could potentially be one expensive experiment.
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There is little doubt that supercharging is harder on the battery. The only question is how much?
At $40k+ per battery, that could potentially be one expensive experiment.�
Dec 21, 2013
Chipper There is little doubt that supercharging is harder on the battery. The only question is how much?
At $40k+ per battery, that could potentially be one expensive experiment.
Care to provide some data supporting your claims? I would be particularly interested in your claim of $40K per battery. The last I heard the battery pack was not even half that much!�
Dec 21, 2013
rlcordeiro I told my wife "Honey I can charge my car for free at the Hawthorne SC" (20 mi away). She said "cheap B*****d".�
Dec 22, 2013
KJD This was written about on Green Car Reports by David Noland.
Life With Tesla Model S: Battery Upgrade From 60 kWh To 85 kWh�
Jan 3, 2014
scaesare I thought it interesting that in Post #43 of the "Supercharger Crowding?" thread, where it was discussing congestion at some locations with a large Telsa population nearby, it had this to say:
Now certainly that wasn't the only factor... but it was a contributing factor. One of the suggestions the poster made there:
This reinforces my opinion that using SC's instead of your home for your daily charging needs, especially as that will likely be during peak commute times for many, is not something that will scale well...�
Jan 3, 2014
paco3791 Yeah I was just reading through that thread, thanks for linking to it!, hopefully Tesla will implement some type of notification system through the App. Should help limit some of the problems.�
Jan 3, 2014
spentan I'm going to be moving to usa and living at my uncle's place in Orange County.
Now the Supercharger being built in San Juan Capistrano, is 15-20mins walk from my gym (Anytime Fitness),
So whenever I need to, I can go start charging, go to the gym, and come back to a nicely charged Tesla without having to ask my uncle for access to his garage (and remove one of his cars, and use his power more than I need to).
Lets see how we go. There are the HPWCs at Mission Viejo store too, but I'd rather go to the gym, than loiter in the mall haha.�
Jan 3, 2014
gg_got_a_tesla spentan, 15-20 min walk each way would mean 30-40 min just to go back and forth not including the time spent at the gym. Parking your S at the Supercharger for an hour or more when it's most likely going to be done charging long before you get back wouldn't be cool IMO. SJC is going to be a busy supercharger site, so, please be considerate.�
Jan 3, 2014
spentan Of course.
I still haven't even got to the US yet let alone get a tesla, will see how it goes.�
Jan 3, 2014
scaesare Another comment from that same thread:
�
Jan 3, 2014
digitaltim To me location is the key...
The superchargers need to be in between real destinations - not destinations themselves.
Travel rest stops in between major cities seem to be the best. The local commuter will not waste their time and the real long distance commuter/road tripper will find an empty bay.
This has been my experience leveraging the DE stop when commuting weekly between Baltimore and NY/NJ for the last year. The four bays have only been filled once and 9 times out of 10 I am the only one there.�
Jan 3, 2014
scaesare Tesla has indeed stated that the supercharger placement on major routes between cities is to enable long-distance travel, and not to replace "destination charging"... so I agree with you on that.
Unfortunately, with the number of people who commute significant distances in to major urban centers, once there are 100K+ Tesla's on the road, it will only take a small percentage of Tesla owners to saturate the supercharges during the several hours at common commute times if they decide to "commute supercharge" rather than charge at home.
Incidentally, I've seen the same at the Newark DE, station. I've used it half a dozen times, and only once were there more than 2 of us there...�
Jan 6, 2014
Kraken About that comment..... There are only 2 or 3 locals... Unless you include the whole Bay Area and sacramento area as local..., so that is by far a false statement.
I am one of those locals, and it wasnt me.�
Jan 6, 2014
EdA I had an interesting experience over the weekend - took a roadtrip from Boston to Philly (and back).
Due to the cold temperatures (12F) I went stopped at the Milford, CT supercharger for a 5 or 10 minute charge
before hitting the Darien, CT charger [I preferred to drive "at speed"] where there was another guy charging. He left
and different Model S showed up. We were on separate "pairs". At some point a "local" showed up for about 10
minutes or less and was gone.
If this is the charging profile of the "locals" this isn't too bad IMO. Of course I've never seen a backup at a SC.�
Mar 17, 2015
scaesare [Zombie thread resurrection alert]
Interestingly, folks have noticed some change in wording on the Supercharger page in a related thread that might add some support to the point I was trying to make year some time ago:
MY CAR WON'T CHARGE FASTER THAN 60KW THREAD�
Mar 17, 2015
paco3791 That's a more interesting thread than it appears on the surface. Thanks for linking!�
Mar 17, 2015
scaesare Sure.
I certainly hope the 60KW thing is just an anomaly...�
Mar 18, 2015
island Probably was me as I'm about 5 minutes away from both Darien Supercharger locations - 4 stalls at each. Every few days I stop to charge and I see other Teslas every so often, but never more than one other charging at a time. I always stay in the car to work while I wait. Haven't charged at home yet.�
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