May 24, 2016
Frank Schwab This question is asked out of ignorance - I simply don't know how Tesla manages battery temps.
I've read in a lot of threads about how much of a range hit we'll get in bitterly cold weather (and, yes, I consider 10F/-12C to be bitterly cold). I've read a lot about how high temperature is bad for battery lifetime (living in Phoenix, this is more my concern). My question is - how hard does Tesla try to keep the battery in a reasonable temperature range?
1. Does the car try to warm the battery in bitterly cold weather using the heater when it's parked? This would seem to be a bad idea when unplugged, but might be a REALLY GOOD IDEA when plugged in.
2. Can I heat the battery through the phone app before I go outside? Seems like a few kilowatts expended through the resistive heater might liberate more than that from the warmed battery pack.
3. Does the car try to warm the battery when driving by using heat from the motor? I believe that both the motor and the battery pack are liquid cooled, so it should be possible to get free battery heating by simply running the coolant in a loop through both.
4. Does the car try to cool the battery in hot weather? When June/July rolls around and every day is above 110F/45C and the worst ones above 120F/50C, will the car try to actively cool the battery when it's parked? How about parked and plugged in? I can protect the car at home, but not so much at work.
Thanks for any info you've got.
/frank�
May 24, 2016
JeffK Nothing to do with battery "lifetime" but instead think "usable battery capacity".
1. No, That wouldn't make any sense unless you purposely turned on the heater via the app. If it did it by itself while parked all the time you'd end up with a drained battery
2. Yes, you can do this. It's best to do this while it's plugged into the wall as to not drain your battery.
3. They should be on different coolant loops see Patent US20100025006 - Electric vehicle thermal management system
4. The car will cool the battery when the battery gets hot regardless of outside temp. There's no reason to cool it when parked. The battery is kept cool during charging though as that generates a lot of heat.�
May 24, 2016
Booga I think I read that the Leaf has a feature to combine points 2 and 4, and I'm guessing Tesla does too. They let you top off the charging at a certain time (1 hour before your commute for example). It benefits you if you wanted that charge and also creates some heat to decrease battery use for heating.�
May 24, 2016
Frank Schwab Cold temperatures relate to "usable battery capacity". No harm to the battery in cold temperatures, just a reduction in the number of electrons you can coax out of it.
Hot temperatures, however, do harm the battery. Storage at elevated temperatures (think parked outside at 4:00 PM in Phoenix in June) seriously increases battery degradation. So, in some places it does make sense to cool an idle battery, even when parked. Hmm, an interesting question - if I committed 50 mi/day worth of range to keeping the battery cool when parked, do I have a better battery lifetime than not doing so and leatting the battery get hot?�
May 24, 2016
JeffK The battery is literally in the shade (under the car) and has coolant throughout it. This is very different than the heat generated during operation which I'd be more concerned about. Don't think of it as a baby left in the car on a hot day.�
May 24, 2016
gregd I was very concerned about this - draining the battery while the car sits in the parking lot at work on a sunny day - but as far as I know in the year I've had my Roadster, it's yet to even kick in. It takes a long time to heat up that much mass, and the active cooling that takes place while charging (even if charged in the morning) sucks out enough heat that it never gets warm enough just sitting there.�
May 24, 2016
mkjayakumar The tarmac under the battery will be several degrees hotter than the ambient air temperature. So if you are driving or parked on a hot day in an open lot on a 110F evening, then expect the tarmac to be at alteast 115F+. Since the pack is so close to the ground, the radiated heat from the tarmac will be very intense that is what the BMS has to counter.�
May 24, 2016
zenmaster Battery temp managment is an area that definitely needs more work by Tesla. Is the energy required to heat it to ideal temp in cold weather actually more than the 1/4 or more kWh lost? Also the car will go into "limp mode" if a certain amount of hard acceleration is attempted in a period of say 5 minutes.�
May 24, 2016
int32_t Yes, you're right. Hot can cause damage, while cold is only temporary. Without even altering the temperature of the battery, however, there is still a way to mitigate the degradation caused by extremely hot temperatures: store at a lower state of charge. Even at higher temperatures a lower state of charge (say, 40-60%) will improve overall lifetime compared to storing at the same temperature at 100% SoC. This is info from a US study done a couple years ago which I don't feel like finding just now.
I (am confident I) heard elsewhere on this forum that the Model S won't do any type of temperature control for the battery on 120V because there really isn't enough power there to charge and heat/cool at the same time. If that's the case, I would expect it to keep the battery comfortable if the vehicle is plugged in to something more substantial, be it a Supercharger or Level 2 or something.�
May 24, 2016
SageBrush Huh. I was thinking that the loops are coupled�
May 25, 2016
JeffK That's right. (different loops doesn't mean they aren't connected)
The battery system has loop that connects to the same heat exchanger that the HVAC loop connects to. The drive motor loop is coupled with the HVAC system through flow control valves that allow you to pipe in heat from the motor to HVAC system.
The patent explains everything in the summary section.�
May 25, 2016
scaesare I'm not so sure this is true. Other EV's , such as the Leaf, had premature batter degradation in hot climates due to lack of thermal management. They subsequently added such to later models precisely for pack longevity reasons.�
May 25, 2016
scaesare A(nother) picture is worth 1024 words:
![[?IMG]](http://i.imgur.com/TOUXlWM.jpg)
�
May 25, 2016
garsh AFAIK, Nissan added a heater to the battery pack (in 2012) for dealing with sub-zero temperatures, but they did not add any additional cooling capabilities.�
May 25, 2016
Kimo I wonder what kind of solution the Model 3 will have at its price point. I can't imagine it will have all of the tech from the S, and I am curious if one area of cost savings is in the cooling/heating of the battery.�
May 25, 2016
techmaven Tesla's NCA battery chemistry (nickel cobalt aluminum) is far more heat tolerant than the chemistry in the Nissan Leaf. Matter of fact, the difference in degradation is hard to tell at 50 degrees C versus 25 degrees C. Hence the active cooling target is 55 degrees C, or 131 degrees F. One also gets more energy out of the pack at a higher temperature, hence the ludicrous mode's max battery power setting causes it to heat up the battery. But yes, one of the reasons for much higher vampire drain of Tesla vehicles is the active battery management that will step in to protect the pack.�
May 25, 2016
JeffK On the contrary, I bet it will have the best thermal management possible out of anything in the Tesla lineup so far. I hear about quite a few people with the Model S and coolant problems leading to battery issues including multiple drive battery replacements on the same vehicle. Warranty costs are still high.
With a higher volume car, Tesla can afford even fewer of such issues. These battery packs need to be made to last.�
May 25, 2016
Kimo While I agree to some point, having the best thermal management possible, in my mind, has a high cost which may not be supported in a $35k vehicle. The S, I assume, currently has the best thermal management possible, so in my mind taking what the S has, making it even better, an putting into the model 3 doesn't equate from a cost perspective. I generally see it as taking what the S has, and making it "cheaper", while meeting a specific acceptable thermal management goal.
I am very curious to learn if other aspects of the 3 will have similar "make it cheaper" aspects, such as not having full time 3G/LTE connectivity (maybe offering it as an option/upgrade/subscription), reducing or eliminating over the air software updates/enhancements and getting them during the yearly service checkups, lower warranty periods (6 year / 100k for the battery), etc. I would love to have an S, as I feel it is a technology playground for the user, having full control and information for just about everything within the vehicle. I really hope the 3 will be similar and not locked down / limited because it is mass produced.
Thoughts?�
May 25, 2016
SageBrush That is AWESOME�
May 25, 2016
JeffK These things are nearly negligible costs when compared to how much it'd cost Tesla for warranty related costs on a lower gross margin car.
The make it cheaper things are fairly straightforward:
Easier to manufacture
More steel than aluminum
Smaller battery.
those alone will dramatically affect the price. Nickel and diming the features Tesla is known for would be a very bad move.�
May 25, 2016
jkk_ That'll end up people driving in outdated cars, i.e., cars that have potential exploits in them. Not really a good direction to take things.�
May 25, 2016
Booga I expect the 3G/LTE connection will remain included in the base price - they're going to use our driving data and that requires a connection. If they charged for it and had people without it, they would lose the data source.�
May 25, 2016
scaesare Ah, looks like I mis-remembered which vehicle they adopted that for... it was the e_NV200:
Does Nissan e-NV200 Show Change of Policy on Battery Heating, Cooling?
Thanks for the correction.
As an aside, here's the heat degradation issue I was referring to, which supports the premise that active cooling is not strictly for power capacity efficiencies, but also longevity reasons (long-ish thread outlining history of issue):
Lost Battery Capacity and Range / Autonomy, Page 2 - My Nissan Leaf Forum
Note that I suspect that the active cooling on the Tesla may be required moreso for heat buildup during supercharging than typical environmental heat management, but nonetheless cooling during high C-rate charging should help with longevity...�
May 25, 2016
Frank Schwab It depends on the value they place on the individual's data. If they cut the LTE and used WiFi instead, and simply encouraged people to connect the car to their home wireless, they could collect just as much information from the 90% of people who'd do that, at the loss of the data from the 10% who won't. Heck, they could do a deal with Starbucks and have the car auto-connect to every Starbucks it passes by and dump it's data. Might be cheaper than the LTE data plan...�
May 25, 2016
JeffK I know loads of people who couldn't input a wifi password if their life depended on it.
A combination of LTE and Wifi is the best approach for everyone. Lifetime cell access is not that expensive (relatively speaking).�
May 25, 2016
Booga Yeah - I think there are enough instances to collect data if needed. I don't know how much data Autopilot needs (road conditions, known construction zones, etc.), but that might be an overriding factor. It could sync with a phone and use the data connection from that.
I'm hoping the cost of this is already baked into the car for a number of years (8 years for example to match the drivetrain). I don't mind paying a little bit after that, but would hope it's not outrageous.�
May 25, 2016
jerry33 Correct. They did change the chemistry to reduce heat degradation.�
May 25, 2016
mkjayakumar But the jury is still out if that really helped or not. Early reports are not very encouraging. Lizard battery is more like a penguin battery.�
May 25, 2016
int32_t Outdated, maybe, but without a data connection -- unexploitable.
�
May 25, 2016
jerry33 True. I have one but am concerned that it can only charge to 100%, which probably nullifies any gains.�
May 26, 2016
SageBrush What fraction of the waste heat from the battery and electronics can be diverted to the cabin for heating ?�
May 26, 2016
JeffK What fraction? I mean it depends on the thermodynamic properties of the materials used, the heat capacity of the coolant, radiative losses, etc... It's question is nearly impossible to answer accurately.
Would you be satisfied if I lied and said "all of it" in the layman sense?�
May 26, 2016
SageBrush LOL
ok,...we cannot model it accurately.
How about empiric observations ? Changes of Wh/mile at steady state driving with cabin heating on or off would be interesting at different ambient temperatures.
I was just thinking that about 1000 - 2000 watts of waste heat are generated at highway driving speeds, and I'd like a ballpark idea of how much of that that be diverted to the cabin. Estimates with some explanations would be great. Presume Tesla insulated where it was reasonable to do so, and that they did not choose a crappy refrigerant ;-)�
May 26, 2016
JeffK The Model 3 is supposed to have a "revolutionary" new HVAC system so unfortunately Model S/X observations won't hold.�
May 26, 2016
SageBrush How well does the Model S/X perform ?�
May 26, 2016
AZ Desert Driver If you watch the Mobileye lectures, they intend to update the "maps" with 10k of uploads every few microseconds. Nightly updates, or baton pass updates, would delete the core of the advanced piloting systems. Full time connection is baked in.�
May 26, 2016
Genshi Exactly what he said... The Leaf problems in the early models was primarily related to both battery chemistry differences and the use of air cooling when liquid cooling should have been used. It was cheaper to do air though...
Are Air-Cooled Batteries Hurting Nissan Leaf Range?
I only scanned this next article, but I'm pretty sure they've since fixed some/most of those problems.
Nissan Testing New Battery Pack to Address Problems with LEAF in Hot Weather
Edited to add:
Apparently there's some irony to be had here, too. Elon Musk derided the Nissan Leaf packs before problems had even emerged for... exactly the reason the problems emerged. "As a result, the LEAF pack will have temperatures �all over the place,� claimed Musk, causing it to suffer �huge degradation� in cold environments and basically �shut off� in hot environments."
Gigaom | Electric Car 101: Liquid vs. Air Battery Cooling Systems
And edited again to add this:
BMW and LG Chem Trump Tesla in Battery Thermal Management - HybridCars.com
Recently it was reported Tesla were in talks with Samsung and LG, ostensibly for their addition to the supply chain. It seems possible, between the "revolutionary HVAC" system for the Model ? and those talks, that it might also have something to do with LG's patent of a potentially simpler/cheaper cooling solution?
I'd rate that as unlikely because the simpler explanation is redundancy in their supply chain during the ramp up to 500k vehicles/year, but it might be part of the reason they're looking to work with partners besides Panasonic.�
May 28, 2016
Reeler Perhaps the Model 3 will forgo active cooling like the LEAF to keep costs down. The Bolt apparently goes to a design where each cell is passively cooled, which is different from the Volt and Spark where coolant was pumped between each cell.
It would affect battery life for sure, but would reduce the cost of the battery unit significantly. If you want less degradation, you could buy a luxury model (i.e., the S or X).�
May 28, 2016
jkk_ So... in order to save a few bucks let's push people to continue driving ICE. I respectfully disagree.�
May 28, 2016
SageBrush Tesla != GM�
May 28, 2016
Reeler The Model 3 has a much smaller area to fit the battery and is at a price point where others have reduced the complexity of individual cell active cooling.�
May 28, 2016
zenmaster What is the volume difference between the 3 and S?�
May 28, 2016
Reeler I thought it was 85% the size overall, but the battery would have to scale down more than that envelope.�
May 28, 2016
zenmaster Why?�
May 28, 2016
SageBrush Why indeed.
And even if true, there is a lot of room to downsize.
The ModelS supports 90 kWh. Starting from an 85% volume reduction there is 90*0.85 = 76.5 kWh capacity space.�
May 28, 2016
Reeler Wheel wells are the same as are many other things like seats. The floor has weird angles too. Floorboard space does not scale linearly with the size of the car.�
May 29, 2016
AZ Desert Driver I'm not clear on what you are arguing...Seems like you are suggesting that the physics Tesla uses (cooling system) to keep battery healthy for 10+ years should be dropped on the M3 because of initial cost. And your most recent posts indicate that there is no room for good physics because the floor plan has a kink in it.
On the surface, if I understand your position, it seems contradictory to EM goal of producing fine cars. If I am missing your point, please illuminate .�
May 29, 2016
zenmaster Once Tesla effectively kick-starts EV demand and serious competition within the industry, the mission statement will be fulfilled: "to accelerate the advent of sustainable transport by bringing compelling mass market electric cars to market as soon as possible." After that point, they would not necessarily need to make "fine cars" or even any cars. To stay in business, they definitely could fall back on their battery tech though.�
May 29, 2016
Dan Detweiler Coming to this conversation late but judging from the last few posts there seems to be an argument that the "skateboard" that the battery pack attaches to is significantly smaller than the Model S. Judging from comparisons I have seen the smaller size of the Model 3 three seems to be almost exclusively from the front wheels forward and from the back wheels backward. The center portion of the car seems to be almost the same. I think they will have plenty of room to put whatever size battery pack they want into the Model 3.
Dan�
May 29, 2016
zenmaster I would hope they considered this when designing their car and the battery packs together.�
May 29, 2016
Reeler With the modern trend being away from individual cell cooling, I think Tesla could drop it for the Model 3. Here is what supports that opinion:
The contrary argument seems to be fanboy/investor nonsense based upon EM goal of "fine cars" . . . hopes/dreams. I will be at the Gigafactory opening in July and will let you know who is right.
- The Model 3 is SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than the other cars Tesla has sold
- The Model S/X needs to have product differentiation from the Model 3 to keep selling the advanced/expensive Model S/X
- The Model 3 is cheaper (at base price) than the Bolt which dropped individual cell cooling
- The Model 3 has a smaller area to place its battery than the Model S/X
- Lithium-based chemistries are becoming better across a larger temperature range (i.e., LEAF lizard battery)
- It has been announced that the Model 3 will use different batteries than the Model S/X
- The Gigafactory gives Tesla latitude to standardize on any size cell they want as economies of scale no longer require using an industry standard sized cell
�
May 29, 2016
Dan Detweiler The problem with doing away with active temperature management of some type is that you can seriously effect the long term health of the battery pack. Just ask early Leaf owners about battery degradation. If you want to make it cheaper that's fine, and will have to happen somewhere but if it is up to me, this is one area I think they can't cut corners on.
Didn't realize that Chevy had dropped it on the Bolt. It was one of the big selling points on my current Volt. That would definitely be a deal breaker if I was looking at a Bolt.
Dan�
May 29, 2016
Reeler The presumption is that it will be helpful with the new cells used in the Model 3. The modern trend is away from it so I recommend folks be open minded about it.
Somehow Tesla needs to make a profit at a significantly lower price point. I know everyone wants a Model X for $35K, but logic dictates something must be different. Why would anyone buy a 5 seat Model S if a 5 seat Model 3 is the same or better? Model 3 buyers need to come down to reality and stop dreaming.�
May 29, 2016
jerry33 No way it can be the same. It's smaller, there will be less room. 3/4 != 100%. However, I really doubt if Tesla will compromise on battery life. That just makes no sense.�
May 29, 2016
Dan Detweiler With all due respect, I don't think anyone is expecting a Model X for 35K. Of course there will be limits to what Tesla puts in the cheapest base version of the Model 3.
That being said, many, if not most of us that have a reservation have no intention of spending just 35K on their car. We have things we would like to see on our cars and are willing to pay extra for them.
Dan�
May 29, 2016
jkk_ It has been discussed in length in various threads, including this one: What will separate S from 3?
In any case, you sound a lot like you just want to protect the S for some reason. I'm not sure if that is your intention but that's the feeling I'm getting and it might be the reason I'm finding it hard to understand what your message really is.
What makes you so sure that Tesla won't migrate the S and X also to the new cell design eventually? I believe it was in this thread that someone made guesstimate that the battery compartments were more or less the same sizes.�
May 29, 2016
diamond.g As far as I can tell the bolt has active thermal management for the battery. They are just chilling the bottom of the pack instead of each plate.�
May 29, 2016
AZ Desert Driver Reeler said: ?
The modern trend is away from it so I recommend folks be open minded about it.
Is Reeler correct? IS the modern trend away from thermal management? I was lead to believe just the opposite - coolant piped through all Tesla batteries (so far) and the "other guys" have been burned and now are adopting cooling technology.
I really don't know what is fact vs fiction. Is there a trend against cooling?�
May 29, 2016
jkk_ Don't know, I certainly hope not since my understanding is that (at least with current technology) it really isn't feasible with regards to battery lifetime.
I can already see the situation:
I wonder which will be more convincing...
Edit: fixed wording in imaginary situation�
May 30, 2016
Reeler The trend is away from cooling each cell. BMW and Chevy are no longer doing this and only cool one side w heat sinks between prismatic cells. The Leaf has no active cooling at all with very little degradation in the most recent packs where 100% charging is mandatory. The Leaf does heat the pack, but not for each cell.
The presumption that the Model 3 will continue the crazy complexity of the Model S/X battery packs is my point. That doesn't mean you will not get 8 years from the battery pack, but you might expect 25% degradation rather than the 15% or whatever they predict on the current design.
@jkk_ I have two Model 3s on order since before the announcement that I attended. I don't like my wife's Model X and don't particularly like the Model S either, but need AWD in an EV to get me snow boarding. I think the battery design for both was a kludge necessary at the time, but is no longer. When you hear that buzz saw of an A/C compressor kick in to cool the pack on a hot day or while charging, you may agree.�
May 30, 2016
diamond.g Wouldn't supercharging destroy the battery life without active cooling? To be honest I am unsure how good cooling just the bottom of the pack would be for high rate DC charging.�
May 30, 2016
jkk_ Overall, everything that reduces complexity is in general a good thing. I'm torn whether or not 25% degradation in 8 years is good or bad. Mind you, average age for cars in this part of the globe is around 12 years or so.
Closest I've come to the buzz saw (�
May 30, 2016
jerry33 A good reason not to purchase a car with that kind of poor BMS.�
May 30, 2016
scaesare As Elon has discussed many times, Tesla is intent on removing the barriers to EV adoption. Two of those are:
- The trepidation folks have over battery longevity
- The barriers to long distance travel
Longevity and associated capacity degradation are directly tied to the temperature envelope the battery operates in. Liquid cooling for thermal management helps in this arena.
Long distance travel is addressed by Superchargers. These are likely the greatest thermal loads on the battery, as li-ion cells generate more heat when charging than discharging, and Superchargers are the highest charge rates the pack will experience. This is why you'll hear the thermal management system working overtime when supercharging in any sort of warmer weather.
Barring some radical new battery chemistry, I don't see Tesla risking the reputation of the technology by compromising on thermal management.
What's more, we know they are considering a larger cell format. For a cylindrical cell, the larger it is, the less the surface area to volume ratio. This impacts how effective cooling can be, particularly air cooling.
Assuming the new cells are 22700 format, as compared to today's 18650's, that represents 61% more volume per cell, but only 32% more surface area. If anything that implies a greater likelihood that air cooling would be less effective, and that they'd retain some liquid cooling system.�
May 30, 2016
zenmaster BMW and LG Chem Trump Tesla in Battery Thermal Management - HybridCars.com�
May 30, 2016
Zoomit While less degradation is certainly desireable, if the options were, for the same price:
A) simpler systems, 60 kWh (+10%) battery that degrades to 45 kWh (-25%) in 8 yrs
B) more complex systems, 55 kWh battery that degrades to 47 kWh (-15%) in 8 yrs
I'd definitely pick option A.�
May 30, 2016
Dan Detweiler Been doing it for four years in my Volt. To me that is the reassuring sound of long term battery life. I will gladly put up with it...in my Volt and in my Model 3.
Dan�
May 30, 2016
Trail Runner The worst part of my 2011 Leaf with 85k on it and 5 years is that the battery has now degraded 34%, with a 40-50 mile range. This is in Oregon. I'll never buy again with out thermal management. I'm really looking forward to the M3 having thermal management for the batteries.�
May 30, 2016
Reeler I am on my 4th Leaf. Two 2011, one 2013, and a 2016. I use the last two currently. I think there have been 2-3 battery iterations since the 2011 version for Nissan. I think the most recent ones are better, but probably won't own them long enough to find out.�
May 30, 2016
jkk_ And I'd pick option B even though I'm advocating for as big battery as possible�
May 30, 2016
Reeler Looks like LG/Bolt and BMW have a far simpler and effective system than the Model S/X. Let's hope the Model 3 is not saddled with the Gen1 kludge in current Tesla models.�
May 30, 2016
jkk_ Didn't have time to go through the article in detail, how well does that system work with battery heating in cold temperatures?
I'd assume that Model S's and Xs get gen2 system before the 3 is out, and as a consequence the 3 will also have gen2 system.�
May 30, 2016
Reeler The Model S/X have the same system as the original Roadster. A kludge that is a decade old.�
May 30, 2016
JeffK I don't see the other manufactures using such high current for charging and discharging... Therefore whatever they are doing is irrelevant and/or inadequate for a performance application. In addition, most probably need better cooling solutions because they have a lower surface area to volume ratio for the cells.�
May 30, 2016
zenmaster Yes, Tesla is not yet a tech leader in battery thermal management which is surprising given their business. In addition to the LG/Bolt/BMW system, there are other prospective systems such as GCoreLab's out of Singapore which may be even lower cost.�
May 30, 2016
zenmaster Audi's system will exceed Tesla.
Audi e-Tron Electric Car To Offer 150-kW Quick Charging Sites�
May 30, 2016
diamond.g Also how does it deal with higher than 50 kW charging?�
May 30, 2016
jkk_ True, but it needs to be noted when comparing these things is that one is comparing something that exists today (and can be upgraded) to something that isn't even in existence yet.�
May 30, 2016
diamond.g And with that e-tron they could be using complicated cooling system for the BMS, we don't know yet.�
May 30, 2016
scaesare You are speaking present tense with LG/Bolt and BMW. While there's evidence that BMW is using it in the i3, it's likely a bit early to determine how effective it is. The article only hypothesizes that the Bolt will have it, so it's definitely too early there.
As for kludge? Please.
The dual-loop design also allows waste heat from the drive unit or the pack heaters to use the same plumbing to also warm the batteries in cold weather, avoiding separate systems to have to be integrated in to the pack. Unless, of course, the BMW an LG designs intend to forego cold temperature thermal management.
The roadster pack has shown exceptional performance from an energy retention standpoint. The Model S appears to do at least as well, if not better. The other players really don't have much of a track record yet, so calling Tesla's proven design a kludge seems a bit much, no?�
May 30, 2016
scaesare If I had a dollar for every Audi EV press release...�
May 30, 2016
jerry33 This is like the battery of the week that will replace the current batteries. All hype, no facts.�
May 30, 2016
zenmaster You disagree with the article? It seems reasoned enough.�
May 30, 2016
zenmaster In principle, this seems great. In reality, the design is simply insufficient to keep the battery anywhere near optimum temps. In colder climate, the range is reduced by 1/4 or 1/3 even above freezing conditions.�
May 30, 2016
diamond.g Is that the BMS or Climate Control?�
May 30, 2016
jerry33 So do many of the battery of the week articles, so far none have amounted to anything.�
May 30, 2016
scaesare Where do you think the energy to keep the battery warm comes from? Hint: it's the battery itself. That will eat the range.
But, we aren't discussing cold weather range here, are we? We are talking degradation... and managing battery temps to avoid capacity degradation (as well as to allow full range power output and regen ability) is what the thermal management system does.
You seem to be mixing premises.�
May 30, 2016
zenmaster Has nothing to do with battery of the week. It's talking about actually deployed systems which are considered state of the art. Tesla may very well follow BMW's lead and change to DX.�
May 30, 2016
zenmaster Yes it eats the range, and eats more range due to heat loss. It's all part of the design.�
May 30, 2016
JeffK Let's remember Elon has mentioned several times he wants Tesla superchargers to go to 200kW in the near future.�
May 30, 2016
scaesare Your post ignores important discussion context: namely the thermal management system reduces battery degradation and allows higher performance. This is the case even in cold weather.
You seem to cast this in the light of a negative for Tesla's system, yet there's no indication of how the DX system addresses warming the pack... or if they even do. Feel free to explain how their simpler, yet superior, system does this without also expending energy. Or if they opt to forego it, risking battery longevity.�
Jun 2, 2016
JPWhite If they cheap out on thermal management, I and I believe many others will cancel their orders.
There is not a scenario I can foresee where Musk will make this blunder.�
Jun 2, 2016
Kimo I hope that is the case. After watching the shareholder meeting, I didn't get the greatest feeling when it comes to what the Model 3 will get tech wise. I suspect I put way too much hope in what the Model 3 could be, as I only really had the Model S to compare it too. I feel that some items will be very similar to the Model S, such as the thermal management, drive units (in a smaller fashion), other drive components, etc., since the tech is already available and tested. However, I have this fear that the Model 3 will not nearly be as user interactive as the Model S, or at least not as many interactions, which is what I am very interested in as that is what I will see and use everyday. I also have a fear that the autopilot will not be the latest generation as hoped, but most likely what is currently available on the Model S, and possibly even limited in some way as to not truly compete with the S / X. This assumes the Model S will get an autopilot generation update before the Model 3 comes out, since Elon indicated the S / X would be the tech rich models, and I would be surprised if they gave the 3 the same autopilot as the S / X. I have no proof and knowledge that my fears are correct, I just am starting to lower my expectations, esp. after Elon�s comment about adding more/newer tech in later revisions of the model.
Obviously I had really hoped the Model 3 would basically be a Model S, with just less options / features but the same user interface / functionality.�
Jun 2, 2016
jkk_ But it was clearly stated that they will not withhold any tech "just because." Of course, companies can talk whatever they want but Elon's comment at least felt honest if nothing else so I'm inclined to believe him that they won't hold back technology just to protect something, cost of things will do it for them.�
Jun 2, 2016
Booga They're good at engineering. I'm sure that if they went without it, they would have solid reasoning and have been testing it in simulations for a while already. I'm not concerned. They have to pay the warranty costs if they're wrong, so their own financials are on the line along with reputation.
I'm curious to see what their HVAC solution will be for the car's cabin. They haven't provided any details on it.�
Jun 2, 2016
AZ Desert Driver My take - Tesla wants to gather as much AP information as possible, so EVERY NEW car will be fitted with a full array of sensors. (buy in bulk, minimize mfg complexity). Activating the features is user choice ($). But the car will collect and report data.�
Jun 2, 2016
jkk_ Based on Elon's comments in today's Recode and the latest Tesla shareholders event I'd guess that they won't make any dramatic changes to the current system. The S and X are both the technological forerunners as well as test mules.�
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