Jul 13, 2012
Discoducky I have some good news and bad news.
Good news is that interest in the Model S is crazy from people with lots of money who are being added to the Founders list.
Bad news is that these people are apparently getting ahead of even SSL reservation holders and the Founders list has apparently ballooned to over 200.
Not sure if this is totally correct information, but I believe it is. I'm bummed since I heard from an early SSL that their delivery date has been pushed to late August/early September. There was no mention if less than 5K would be "produced" this year.
Mod Note: GeorgeB has put this to rest:
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Jul 13, 2012
bonnie Where did you hear this?�
Jul 13, 2012
gg_got_a_tesla Hmm... Evan just reported on the "Latest Finalize your..." thread that his R #77 is scheduled for November.
Not nice to those of us waiting for a long time but, hey, money talks!�
Jul 13, 2012
mlascano That would be bad news indeed. Can you ask your "early SSL friend" to post here to confirm what he/she was told?�
Jul 13, 2012
dsm363 If true, that is a little disappointing. Especially if they were not big investors in Tesla early on.�
Jul 13, 2012
Discoducky Early SSL reservation holder who was initially promised mid July delivery.�
Jul 13, 2012
smoothoperator Oh well hopefully these founders will be the guinea pigs for those of us who were concerned about defects in early S'. I hope we hear some solid news from Tesla soon, heck I would be pleased if my reservation showed an updated status.�
Jul 13, 2012
doug Interesting. Last I heard the number of Founders' cars was 38.�
Jul 13, 2012
gg_got_a_tesla Wonder if ggr (SSL #32 who got a late July delivery date) might hear from Tesla shortly...�
Jul 13, 2012
bonnie So, assuming that maybe this isn't the case, let's revisit ...
?
- Early SSL was promised mid-July, now told late August/early September. That's approx a 40-60 day delay
- George B posts that they are making a couple of changes in the cars ( carbon fiber details, alignment issues and open shelf), from info learned with early cars
- Tesla has said they would start with 1 car/day and ramp up from there
Honestly? Late August/early September sounds about right, considering the days delayed, the changes being made, and the slow ramp. Was your friend specifically told there were more Founders Cars to be made? Or is that an assumption regarding the delay?�
Jul 13, 2012
Discoducky Specifically told�
Jul 13, 2012
bonnie Based on the facts we already know, then if there were 200 more Founder cars, he should expect a MUCH later date than late August/early September.
------------ I'm doubtful because while all the forum talk was going on over center console|alignment|we want this, too, I kept thinking 'well, that will delay deliveries, do they really want that?' And now we have at least three changes to the vehicles and the modest delay of 40-60 days seems right in line with the nature of the changes.
To be clear, I'm not doubting your friend was told that. I'm doubting that the person who said it actually KNEW.�
Jul 13, 2012
brianman +drama�
Jul 13, 2012
Jkam If this is true - making more Founder's cars to satisfy some crazy rich people - once again Tesla is screwing the Signatures Series owners. In producing more Founder's series cars, it is diluting the value of plunking down a significant deposit to have one of the first 1,000 cars and is basically allowing people to cut in line.
Look I'm a businessman, and I get the motive of maximizing profit and getting more sales, but it just seems like many decisions Tesla makes justified or not, is at the expense of the Signature Series. As a Signature Reservation Holder, if this is true, it is disheartening and frustrating.
I hope this is all just a misunderstanding and isn't actually happening.�
Jul 13, 2012
brianman Indeed, Jkam.�
Jul 13, 2012
MikeK I didn't see where George mentioned alignment issues (I assume you mean body panel fit, right?). Did I miss it or did you hear this from somebody else?
Thanks!�
Jul 13, 2012
smoothoperator Tesla allowed SSL reservation holders to cut in line....I see no difference between that and being an investor and having the ability to cut in line. The biggest problem to me is not the "cutting in line" part but rather there was no cut-off date for being able to "cut in line" for investors (founders).�
Jul 13, 2012
brianman The dilution part is what bothers me. SSL is a part of the Sig regional limit. Founder's is not. This I find disheartening.
The cut in line is not something I expect from Tesla, but doesn't surprise me for a company not in the black yet.�
Jul 13, 2012
AnOutsider Correct. Plenty of us plunked down cash years ago and put faith in Tesla. Now, Tesla is buzzing and people wanna rush forward and hop on the bandwagon? Fine, but send them out AFTER sigs go out.
...This is all assuming the hearsay is true of course. Somehow I can't bring myself to believe Tesla would push back those who had been waiting faithfully in order to please these late-comers. Say it ain't so.�
Jul 13, 2012
brianman If Tesla was charging them double ($250k for fully-configured Signature Perf), I'd be more okay with it.�
Jul 13, 2012
bonnie In fairness, he didn't specifically say that in his blog post. I guess I interpreted what he wrote to mean 'fixing the minor issues we've seen in the cars'.
Even if that were not the case, 40-60 days to update the dash with the open shelf and build stock on the non-cf parts seems reasonable to me. But I'm sure tolerances would have gotten adjusted to deal with any noted alignment issues. And that would require a validation run. And and and.�
Jul 13, 2012
smoothoperator yea this is very true...charge them double then use those funds to improve the niggling issues before they start manufacturing the Sig's.�
Jul 13, 2012
Jkam Still not acceptable. If Tesla is allowing new orders for Founders series cars, it is just wrong.
In another thread there is some speculation that because some people have Sig #s in the 1,200s Tesla is making more than 1,000 Sigs. I don't know if I believe it, but if they are correct and Tesla is making these new Founders orders, I see a potential law suit in the future. Tesla needs to be very careful with this.�
Jul 13, 2012
brianman To be clear, I was referring to the line jump -- not the Sig dilution issue -- as being okay if they charged a(n absurd) premium.�
Jul 13, 2012
bonnie Ugh. People are going off the deep end here because someone was told by someone that something might be true.
Maybe it IS true. Maybe it isn't. How about we not react until we know the facts from an official source.
(Nothing personal to Tesla employees, but I've been told a number of conflicting things by a variety of people. Let's wait for confirmation.)�
Jul 13, 2012
smoothoperator We need another Tesla blog entry�
Jul 13, 2012
gg_got_a_tesla We like our knee jerk reactions, BonnieNo harm in prodding for more transparency on the production status front?!
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Jul 13, 2012
Jkam To be fair, I put a lot of "if" statements in my posts. So I don't think I'm going over the deep end. And as a Sig owner, I feel like I've been disappointed by Tesla before, so these allegations, if true, are disturbing because it is a pattern of disregard for Signature Series owners.
And if Tesla is indeed adding new orders to the Founders series, I don't think Tesla employees are going to verify whether it is actually happening or not. Seems like opening up a can of worms or even worse, a lawsuit. I can see Tesla management hushing it up real soon.�
Jul 13, 2012
Lyon
Yeah, maybe a little gentle reassurance from our good buddy GeorgeB?
Then again, he shouldn't need to respond to every bit of hearsay.�
Jul 13, 2012
Zythryn And the moon landing was shot on a Hollywood movie set�
Jul 13, 2012
jerry33 It's scary how many people actually believe that.�
Jul 13, 2012
Zythryn As a follow up. I have seen posts indicating quite a few non-signature holders got their emails to choose their options. I doubt that would be happening if 100 or so more founders had been thrown into the mix.
I'll get disappointed when this speculation actually happens. Why give myself stress through 'a friend of a friend of a friend said...'.�
Jul 13, 2012
DrDave Agreed - In another thread Nigel posted he would have to complete paperwork ASAP regarding a spoiler b/c his vehicle was "just about to enter production". I am not sure what his # is, but I didn't think he was a founder (and I apologize in advance if he is).
So either the rep that talked to Nigel was wrong, or the rep that told the early SSL about extra founders causing the delay was wrong. Bonnie is correct in that a lot of times the info from certain reps has varied.�
Jul 13, 2012
CapitalistOppressor ^^ Whole thing seems sketchy to me. Folks are combining rumor with unsupported assumptions.
We know, from multiple reports reliably sourced to Tesla employees that the production "ramp up" is going slower than planned.
I am not aware of evidence that Tesla has delivered ANY cars to customers, other than the 10 delivered at the Freemont event.
Troy Wolverton, of Mercury News fame, just reported that NO cars have been delivered since, and I am inclined to believe him.
Wolverton: Tesla's new Model S luxury sedan is a sweet ride - Inside Bay Area
We know that Tesla is working frantically to address issues developed as a result of customer feedback (such as opportunity consoles) in these very forums, and it should be obvious that Tesla has been gathering a ton of real world data and feedback with the Get Amped tour. None of these look to be a big deal, and most seem to involve aesthetics and other minor details that can be quickly addressed.
Given the reports of a delayed ramp up, known changes in the pipeline, and lack of additional customer deliveries it would be fair to assume that the production line is shut down at the moment and NO vehicles are being produced for customers (there might be some being built for Tesla stores or for other company uses). If Tesla is making modifications to the vehicle it wouldn't make sense to be building cars that are now off spec.
Given no production at the moment, that inevitably leads to push back on delivery dates, which we again have anecdotal evidence of.
The June start date was agressive, and the scheduled production ramp up was extremely conservative. As a result, Tesla has a sizable buffer to step back and make the car more perfect, while still being able to meet production goals.
Any argument linking additional founder series cars to production delays is the worst kind of rank speculation, and especially so in light of the fact that there are solid reasons for those delays that do not require some conspiracy theory.
Because of how Tesla uses batch production, and the nature of their ramp-up plans, I think it's simply not true that slotting in additional founders series cars would lead to a substantial delay in the Sigs. The bottleneck is the slow ramp up, and founders already had most (or all) of those slots. Once you get past the initial phases of ramp up an additional 100 vehicles represent maybe a week of production, and eventually just over a day.
So the first few Sig's might see a delay of anywhere from a week or two, but the vast majority would likely not see any appreciable delay at all. But even that is arbitrary. Tesla is more than capable of speeding up production to eliminate possible delays. The planned ramp up was extremely conservative, and I've always felt it was more of a fudge factor to let Tesla have a flexible response to reality (as they appear to be doing), rather than a strict requirement on the critical path for production ramp up.
Of course, none of this has anything to do with diluting the value to the Sig's. It seems to me that it does to a certain extent. But there was always a Founders series which was a more exclusive "brand" than the Sig. To me it seems that the dilution to the Founders affects that class far more than it does the Sig. But if additional Founders cars are being made, they will be going to the Justin Biebers of the world, which drives up the value of the Tesla brand itself, and indirectly improves the value of the Sig's along with all other Tesla models.
To my way of thinking, most chicks wont know the difference anyways. A Tesla Model S Signature Performance with all the gizmos is a pretty hot car, period. (And yes ladies.. dudes think you look sexy driving it too :wink�
Jul 13, 2012
Blurry_Eyed I'll take the silver lining in the cloud approach to this - On the bright side, if it's true a bunch of founders are now stepping up to ask for cars, it probably means that Tesla has really hit a home run with the Model S and the future is very bright for the company. If some high powered types have a Model S to parade around, then it means more publicity for Tesla and in the long run, a better possibility that Tesla stays in business and provides us with a great customer experience for years to come.
If Tesla can stay in business means the Model X will get produced, it means that the Gen III platform will be developed, it means the BMW3 competitor will be available for more people, it means the next gen Roadster will be there and it means that the world will be a better place as Tesla shows the world that Electric cars are the best cars in the world.
It does pain me a bit as a Sig reservation holder if there is a possible delay in my getting my car, but in the scope of things, I'm OK with it.�
Jul 13, 2012
brianman It really has nothing to do with the car.�
Jul 13, 2012
bonnie [mod note: updated thread title to reflect that (so far) this is a rumor, before we start having people believing something we don't know to be true. This in no way reflects on the OP, who is simply reporting what was passed on to him. But this has not been confirmed by Tesla. b.]�
Jul 13, 2012
AnOutsider I, for one, would still have a problem with that. It would be one thing if we all got access to this list, but this is an insider's list, being filled by people who came to the party way late -- basically showing no faith in the company as we have.
I believe the sig #'s in the 1200's are for the people who dropped out or downgraded. I don't think they compacted the list -- they just added on numbers to the end instead.�
Jul 13, 2012
dsm363 If they were early investors (before the company was public) then that's one thing. If they just bought a bunch of stock then I think it's less cool.�
Jul 13, 2012
Beavis In the Latest to Finalize Your Order thread, it looks those that just locked in got delivery dates consistent with the pre-rumor timeline.�
Jul 13, 2012
AnOutsider Is it possible that the founders cars will be delivered within normal production? i.e. they'll get special badging, but not jump the list?�
Jul 13, 2012
CapitalistOppressor Good job. I'd change the "apparently getting much bigger day by day" though. I don't think it's apparent at all. "RUMOR: Founders list getting bigger?" would seem appropriate.�
Jul 13, 2012
bonnie This whole thread is how rumors become urban legend and eventually everyone believes it is true. Speculation about stuff is cool, sometimes we come up with really cool ideas. But speculation that can only negatively impact a company? Totally not cool.�
Jul 13, 2012
bonnie So here's a fact (thank you) -- yet everyone wants to believe the negative. I don't get it.�
Jul 13, 2012
bonnie I changed it to 'might'.�
Jul 13, 2012
mulder1231 What kind of investment does it take to be considered a founder? Does anyone know?�
Jul 13, 2012
brianman He-he. I was wondering when that would be asked.�
Jul 13, 2012
dsm363 I think it's one of those 'if you have to ask, you can't afford it' things.:smile: I have no idea thought but I'd bet it's in the millions.�
Jul 13, 2012
Tommy I've been told I "Flounder" sometimes, does that count.:wink:�
Jul 13, 2012
Todd Burch This thread is the kind of thing that Jalopnik likes to report on. We're doing no service to Tesla by batting these rumors around.�
Jul 13, 2012
Tessier My silver lining is that I am hopping these super rich that may or may not be jumping the line will get sick of there car and put them up for sale (preferably performance cars in white or gray with black interiors) and I can get one at a discount.:tongue:�
Jul 13, 2012
Beavis You're welcome, Bonnie. Two regular production reservation holders locked in todayand reported a November delivery date. Let's rap this up until we have verifiable information to the contrary.�
Jul 13, 2012
Discoducky I'm sorry I posted the rumor, but I believe it to be true, otherwise I wouldn't have bothered. I believe that knowledge is power and this forum is the embodiment of power as it has all the knowledge. And hope we can use it to be constructive.
If it is true, then I'd hope that GB reads it and internalizes that putting "new" Founders cars ahead of SSL's might make good business sense in the short term, but in the long term is really not cool. I could understand the general Production newbs, like me, who didn't purchase Roadsters, but Roadster owners are really the true believers who have driven the dream and put their money in again.�
Jul 13, 2012
ckessel At one point Tesla had a "friends and family" reservation list, I could see that growing. Don't remember where that falls in the sequencing though.�
Jul 13, 2012
brianman @Disdoducky - It also takes some air out of the "sig premium includes early delivery" justification as well.�
Jul 13, 2012
gg_got_a_tesla That's the R list, isn't it? With both Roadster owners as well as their friends/family who are getting non-Sig cars. Some of the Rs were asked to configure today including Evan (efusco) who's R77 and not a Roadster owner.�
Jul 13, 2012
bonnie and what if it is not true and a rag like Jalopnik picks it up? "Knowledge is power" means ... what? You think that if it IS true, it's 'really not cool'. Yep. Do you also agree that if it isn't true, that if this fud was put out and is wrong, is that 'really not cool', too?
I'm reacting strongly because, like many other Roadster owners, have heard rumors, been told facts by enthusiastic employees who really weren't in the know, and we've kept that info at the appropriate level until we did know the facts. Tesla is a new company that can be easily hurt by accusations like this. It wouldn't have hurt to have sent a message directly to Tesla to get confirmation before posting.
I'm done talking about this. This thread has clearly taken on a life of its own and people seem to want to speculate and talk about how 'if true, Tesla management will want to cover it up' and lawsuits and and and. I personally find this kind of speculation extremely irresponsible.�
Jul 13, 2012
FlasherZ When promoted from the P list to the S list, I was told that many were choosing to delay for various reasons and there would, indeed, be only 1,000 made in the US.�
Jul 13, 2012
MikeK Yup, me too. R129 and not a Roadster owner.�
Jul 13, 2012
Jason S Um... back to the original rumor portion.
We have 10-12 cars delivered. We have 38 founders, last I knew.
Seems like 1) it could be absolutely true that more founders are still needing their cars and 2) somebody typo'd the figure: 20 became 200.
Why put to grand conspiracy things that can be explained by easy flubs?�
Jul 13, 2012
brianman The part that originally caught my attention was:
The actual number was secondary.�
Jul 13, 2012
Jason S Quote from teslamotors.com thread:Sounds like SSL is being worked on now. Oh, and they do have some Founders cars to still deliver.�
Jul 13, 2012
Norbert Maybe a misunderstanding of that sentence (with 200 instead of 300) is exactly where the rumor came from: someone merged the two bits of info:
1. "still building Foundation Member cars"
2. "300 are in production"
into a single bit, thinking it would be 200 (300) founders cars. The rest may have been speculation to fill in the blanks.�
Jul 13, 2012
NigelM IMO the whole rumor is total baloney. Here's some things to consider, including a fact or two:
1. Have you all forgotten what GeorgeB said back in January? Model-S-Reservation-and-Delivery-Tally
2. Where does anyone think ~170 additional Founders suddenly came from? All walked in at once?
3. If they were really Founders who had each invested millions early on, that would been $300m? $500m? If there had been an additional half billion dollars in start-up capital, I think someone would have noticed.
4. I was told by Tesla today (directly, not a rumor or third party) that my Sig Special #183 is just about to enter production. I asked about delivery dates but they politely declined saying I would be advised if there was any change.
C'mon people, use your common sense.�
Jul 13, 2012
Norbert Just for clarity: my post above is meant to refute the rumor.�
Jul 13, 2012
NigelM Noted, sorry. I edited my post to make clear the whole rumor is total baloney. Wasn't referring to your post.�
Jul 13, 2012
dmckinstry I don't understand how they can even be called Founders, if they're just now starting. On the other hand, if they're been very large investors (minimum of tens of thousands of shares) from the beginning maybe it's okay. But still they should have to pay a great deal for stepping in line this late. After all, they would have already made a ton because of the increase in stock prices since the beginning.�
Jul 13, 2012
bonnie Did you read the post above yours?
Guys, this really is ridiculous. We've gone from unfounded rumor to people discussing it as if it is fact. Please stop.�
Jul 13, 2012
dmckinstry Sorry Bonnie, but I reply as I read. There were another 40 postings to read before I caught up.�
Jul 13, 2012
Jason S I'll often queue a draft reply up then scan the remaining replies for either new info or my same point. Just right-click next page as 'open in new tab'.�
Jul 14, 2012
GeorgeB Completely inaccurate rumor. We would never do this to those who have supported us as long-term Model S Reservation Holders. Never.
GeorgeB�
Jul 14, 2012
brianman Thanks for jumping in here, George. Bummer that it, apparently, kept you up late.�
Jul 14, 2012
dsm363 Thanks for chiming in and shutting this rumor down.
Mods: Can we move this to off topic and change title to 'Disproven Rumor:Founders list might be getting bigger'�
Jul 14, 2012
brianman I think you mean disproven, not confirmed, dsm.�
Jul 14, 2012
dsm363 You're right. Changed it above. Thanks. I guess I meant it to read the rumor was just a rumor and not fact but blame 5AM=)
Usual Suspects:
Dave Kujan: A rumor's not a rumor that doesn't die...
Jeff Rabin: What?
Dave Kujan: Nothing.�
Jul 14, 2012
brianman Heh. My DSM interpreter is getting pretty good. No worries.
I suspect Bonnie will be happier when she next checks the forum.�
Jul 14, 2012
dsm363 Awesome. I agree.�
Jul 14, 2012
NigelM Off topic? We need to put this thread into that box with the old embarrassing family photographs and stick it in the attic. Everyone knows its there but no-one wants to get it out again.�
Jul 14, 2012
mcornwell GeorgeB saves the day.
I think we really should give Tesla more credit than they get. They do the right thing, and listen to customers more than any company (auto or other) ever has.
Whether its test rides in pre-production cars, tours of the factory, listening to input on options, etc. Who else does this??? I also don't understand the noise about trunk/panel alignment. Elon is such a perfectionist (and it obviously flows down) that he and Tesla will make sure the cars are as perfect as possible before shipping them to customers.�
Jul 14, 2012
Brian H AFAIK, the R list is Roadster owners, family, and friends getting Production models, and the SSL list is the same getting Sigs. No?�
Jul 14, 2012
bonnie -laugh- Really? You think I might be happier?
Damn straight, Skippy!
�
Jul 14, 2012
bonnie Priceless.�
Jul 14, 2012
AnOutsider Noise? There are actual cars with the "issue". Tesla even asked for feedback on anything we may notice on the cars. Noticing and poi ting it out doesn't mean one doesn't have fait in Tesla, it's giving feedback where needed. If there was no "noise" about the center console, we wouldn't now have the shelf and additional options.�
Jul 14, 2012
bonnie So I'm going to shut down this thread to stop the conversation from continuing.
Again, this is a FALSE RUMOR and should (as Nigel said) be put into that box with the old embarrassing family photographs and stuck in the attic. Everyone knows its there but no-one wants to get it out again.
So again FALSE RUMOR. From George Blankenship ...
There is nothing left to see here. Please move on to another thread.�
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