Jan 22, 2011
dpeilow I need some schooling assistance over here please: http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2011/01/tesla%E2%80%99s-model-s-all-dressed-up-and-nowhere-to-go/�
Jan 22, 2011
DaveD Judging by your comments, and his "I need to check my facts" form of backing down, I'd say that you schooled him just fine by yourself. :smile:�
Jan 22, 2011
ckessel I don't grasp auto journalists obsession with really long trips. Very few people drive that hardly ever. You fly long distances. If you really want to drive 500 miles, rent a car that once a year. I can count the number of times I've driven more than 250 miles in a day in the last 10 years one hand.�
Jan 22, 2011
dsm363 Exactly. They can't seem to grasp that EVs (at this point at least) may not work for every person on earth. If you're a sales person who drives 300-400 miles a day then maybe an EV with a 100 mile range and no DC fast charging sites might not be a good solution...etc. They should focus on the probably 80%+ of the population that (especially for a 2 car household with one EV and one ICE car) could use the EV for a daily commuter to and from work.�
Jan 22, 2011
felixtb If we were discussing electric cars in general or electric commute or city cars like the Leaf or the coming mini-e, then I would understand your comment. However, since we are discussing Tesla we are really discussing drivers cars. This to me implies that suddenly the range and the possibility of extending the range on a nice weekend or week long road trip does actually become a valid and important topic. And the range factor I think Tesla has gotten a fairly good handle on. What is more surprising is their relatively over conservative way of dealing with the re-charge times. This seems to me to be Tesla's singularly biggest obstacle. For Tesla to shut up the nei sayers of this world, this is where they now have to concentrate their research, together with partners such as panasonic.
To say that you should rent a car, which are almost never drivers cars, when you want to go on a nice road trip, is like saying I bought this cool weekend house but it's kinda badly conceived so I rent an apartment instead. That just does not make any sense..........Or?
/fb�
Jan 22, 2011
felixtb But the idea should obviously in the end be that we have two EVs in the garage and NO ICEs. Then I would agree that one of these EVs is for comuting and the range has little consequence. but The second one would be for your longer and family oriented outings and weekend trips to grandmas. this is where the driver oriented Tesla comes in and then range and recharge time IS important.
/fb�
Jan 22, 2011
Jaff Nicely done David!...Paul(A)'s arguements are all FUD up...:wink:�
Jan 22, 2011
aronth5 I also don't get the obsession with long trips. I can count on 1 hand the number of times in a year when I drive over 200 miles in one day. And when that happens I would just drive our ICE car (Jetta Sportaswagon- Diesel) which gets over 40mph. The Model S will be fine for me. Its really no different then the family that has a pick up truck and a family sedan. The pick up truck is great but not for a long family trip since it won't hold the whole family. An EV is not right for everybody or every family but for 2 car family it makes sense for millions and millions of people. The problem with many journalists and nay sayers is they focus on the negative.�
Jan 22, 2011
ckessel I get your point, but the analogy isn't very good. A weekend house is 100% for this special use. A car isn't a 100% special use for long road trips.
The focus should be on how you use the car 99.98% of the time, not the .02% of the time you'd need to go on some road trip. At a 250 mile range, it'll do almost any road trip I care about, such as a trip to the coast. A simple standard plug, left in from the time I get there until I leave (typically at least 24-36 hours if I'm there for a weekend) will typically recharge it enough for the trip back.
It's like complaining that your roadster can't carry a cubic yard of gravel the .02% of the time when you need to go to the landscaping store. It's a total WTF comment. If you that's your criteria, then why did you buy a roadster?�
Jan 22, 2011
Lloyd For that matter the Roadster can't even carry the shoes my wife travels with! Hmmmmmm............�
Jan 23, 2011
dpeilow Well, it's clearly going in one ear and out the other because he subsequently popped up on ABG claiming his math was sound.
There was another reply in my sequence on his site which he has decide not to approve, so here it is:
�
Jan 23, 2011
Norbert He makes it sound as if the "padding" needs to be recharged. Unless it somehow dissipates, it shouldn't matter how large the padding is.�
Jan 23, 2011
Kevin Sharpe I posted some comments on the blog.. will be interesting to see if they get published
Kevin Sharpe says:
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
From personal experience I can confirm that it�s possible to charge my Tesla Roadster in 3.5 hours using a HPC. Therefore, I have no reason to believe that the Model S battery, at roughly twice the capacity, will take more than 8 hours when charged at 75 Amp.
I would suggest that the only time anyone requires charging in less than 8 hours, is on an extended 300+ mile road trip. This requirement will be easily catered for by using DC fast charge stations that will appear at key locations.
With regards to your comments that a 240V 75 Amp �charger� �could require a change of service� I agree this is true in some locations. However, 200 Amp and 400 Amp household supplies are not at all uncommon in the US especially in more modern neighbourhoods.�
Jan 23, 2011
dsm363 My comment is waiting moderation. What a strange article. He's obsessed with the 'pad' thinking it's added on top of the battery pack size or something. He's also making up recharging times. If he doesn't approve my post:
Paul: I don�t understand the �pad� you keep talking about. Yes, the Roadster and likely the Model S will protect the top and bottom 10% (20% total) of the battery pack from charging and being discharged respectively. That figure is included in the Roadster�s 53kWh, not added on top of that. If the 300 mile Model S does have a 100kWh pack, the �pad� would be included in that so a standard charge would have access to the middle 80kWh. If you charge in Range mode in the Roadster, you then have access to the �pad� and the entire 53kWh.
Why don�t you accept real numbers from actual owners? The Roadster can indeed go from empty to full in 3.5 hours, I�ve seen it. Why would the 300 mile Model S take 14 hours �at best�? Where do you get these numbers? Like the Roadster, the number they quote for range is when the car is charged in Range mode so there is no pad. In standard mode, which is what you use a large majority of the time, it�s about 80% that number.
Where did you get your figure that the 300 mile Model S would take a couple of hours on a level 3 charger?
If your breaker box is in your garage, the adding a 240V circuit is a minimal cost given the cost of the Model S, maybe a few hundred dollars at most. I had 2 240V 50A circuits installed in my garage and it didn�t cost that much.
People pretty much charge up at home where charging a 300 mile pack in 5-10 hours overnight wouldn�t be a problem for most people. If you�re buying a car like this, it doesn�t make any sense to charge on a 110V outlet. If that�s all someone is willing to do, I wouldn�t recommend they get the car then. Until more DC fast chargers come on line, then you�re right, maybe EVs aren�t the best road cars for people who like to drive 600 miles in a day. If that�s you, don�t buy an EV until fast charging stations are available on your route or they have a 600 mile pack in a few years.�
Jan 23, 2011
ckessel You're not alone, but I'd say you're in a very small minority of drivers. If that's really your usage profile, then I think you made a mistake getting an EV car. I think we're probably at least a decade or two away from EV cars having high powered recharge stations anywhere near as prevalent as current gas stations.
Edit: moreover, I don't think the financial incentive to build charging stations is really there yet. It's a chicken and egg issue. There are few EVs, so no demand. We don't need charging stations much in a city as EV owners charge up at home, unlike gas which you can't tank up at home so stations had to be built. There has to reach a critical mass of EVs on the road such that the minority of drivers that want to take road trips make opening up high powered charging stations financially viable. That's what I meant by a decade or two away. I think it'll take that long to reach that point.�
Jan 23, 2011
Eberhard with up to 480V charging, in the worst case, with my 3-phase 400v/32A i can charge with 12kW in 8,5h, with 3-phase in 5h. That is enough for overnight charging.�
Jan 23, 2011
dpeilow If he doesn't approve them, best to repost on the ABG story where he also popped up. His post is currently #40 and you can see similar replies as ours to it here: http://green.autoblog.com/2011/01/21/why-would-you-criticize-the-model-s-for-having-a-battery-thats/3#comments
By the way, I don't think he's an EV hater, but he's got his sums wrong on this one and now he's digging his heels in.�
Jan 23, 2011
Norbert I think he gets the numbers from extrapolating the Ford Focus numbers (aside from mixing standard/range mode padded/unpadded use, thanks for clearing that up).�
Jan 23, 2011
dsm363 He did approve the comments over at http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2011...nowhere-to-go/
I think he's stuck on this padding idea. Tesla really should advertise mileage in standard mode or give both standard and range mode numbers. That seems to have a lot of these journalists confused. He keeps taking the 300 mile range and then assuming that's the middle 80% of the battery pack. He then adds on another 20% to the battery pack size since Tesla must be hiding that from the customer somewhere. His math has been corrected multiple times by people like dpeilow who know a lot more about this than I do but he doesn't seem to want to believe the numbers.�
Jan 24, 2011
Kevin Harney For those of you that don't understand the "pad" thing I do. It is wrong but I do. He is saying that the battery will be 85-95 KwH. So the last 10 Kwh is padding. And if you go with the larger size cells it will go to 97Kwh which is 2 more "pad" And he is saying that the 12 Kwh "extra" will take more time to charge.�
Jan 24, 2011
dsm363 Yeah. He's fixated on this 'pad' thing. He also doesn't seem to understand that the 300 mile pack is ideal miles and that the number 300 wH/mile is not a fixed/absolute number.
Multiple people have pointed this out to him but he refuses to believe it I guess.
What is the wH/mile average one should use with these kind of calculations? He's set on 300 wH/mile being the absolute minimum.�
Jan 24, 2011
Chris H. Hi Tom,
speaking of that blog by Paul Eisenstein on the Detroit Bureau, I have 5 comments "awaiting moderation" there. The oldest one has been waiting for more than 28hrs. There are no rants or inappropriate language. There's nothing in them that could possibly have violated any commenting policy, just reasoned arguments and polite corrections of his errors. If he doesn't post them in the next 24 hrs, I'll just have to post them here.�
Jan 24, 2011
Chris H. I also have about 5 or 6 comments "awaiting moderation" on that Detroit Bureau blog on charging the 300 mile pack on the Model S. The oldest one has been waiting since yesterday afternoon (almost 30 hrs now). There is no inappropriate content, just reasoned argument and polite pointing out of errors/misconceptions. If he doesn't allow them through moderation in the next 24 hrs, I'll post them here.�
Jan 24, 2011
dsm363 Looks like the comments (yours included Chris H.) are up now.�
Jan 24, 2011
Chris H. Thanks DSM, it looks like they were getting hung up in moderation even though I registered on the site before posting my first comment. At least he offered an explanation (sort of...).�
Jan 24, 2011
Eberhard i want the 300 mile option because, first: after 100.000 miles and 80% capacity is till have the range of the 230 mile pack. second: on my daily commute, when the full range is not needed i can charge within a more narrow band causing even less stress to the battery. Maybe Tesla can provide a further charging option, being optimized for the longlife of the battery�
Jan 24, 2011
dpeilow He's now admitted that he got numbers from Tesla that back up our collective positions, but he's now trying to shift attention elsewhere.
Also it turns out that he's a Volt trialist. The penny drops.�
Jan 25, 2011
Kevin Sharpe been like this all morning...
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Jan 25, 2011
dpeilow I've got two more waiting to go live there, which are:
�
Jan 26, 2011
Eberhard if model s needs 300Wh/mile and i have to go 400 miles for my destination. I have do recharge after 300 miles. If i find a 50A socket, i only have to charge 30kWh for the 100miles left and I can do this within 3hours. Nobody can urge me to charge to full, which may take 10 hours or more.�
Jan 26, 2011
dsm363 Here's the link to the article people have been talking about in the Model S specs thread.
I though that since it was starting to take up so much room in the 'Model S Specs' thread, maybe the comments could be moved here?
Anyway, I really don't understand the intent of the article. His most recent comment "My words have even been turned upside-down, my being accused of calling 14-hour charging a best-case scenario.
Everyone keeps trying to convince me (and, apparently, themselves) of what they think I am writing and what reality is. And when folks like yourself, deliver comments to support my point, they ignore the irony."
I just posted but it's awaiting moderation:
No one is asking you to report just the best case scenario, just a more balanced report. No one is trying to turn your words upside down: I�ll quote your article �The larger Model S, with its huge 300-mile battery, would, at best require about 14 hours to get back on the road � at best.�
When I read that, and the �at best� part comes right after you�re talking about level II chargers, it�s pretty clear you mean 14 hours is the best you can do or at least that�s what everyone else posting here interpreted. You even write �at best� twice in the same sentence to drive home the point. A level II charger can go up to 75A so that�s not a totally accurate statement as people have pointed out multiple times.�
Jan 26, 2011
Todd Burch Let me guess...the Detroit press is not partial to EVs? What a surprise.
(Note sarcasm).�
Jan 26, 2011
dsm363 You got it. He seems like he is genuinely trying to understand the situation but falls into the trap a lot of the press does that it has to be the perfect car for all people and that if you can't drive 600 miles in a day with minimal fuss, then the car is 'effectively unusable'. I think it's just a matter or being exposed to more information and people's stories. I had been reading this forum and following Tesla for over 4 years before I bought my Roadster so I basically knew what to expect. Getting the 50A circuit installed was not a problem. Charging the car has not been a problem. Driving the speed limit......ahhhhh, also not a problem.�
Jan 26, 2011
TEG http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2010/09/15-minute-recharging-underway-for-electric-vehicle-owners-from-eaton-and-murphy-oil/
http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2010/08/battery-life-charging-worry-potential-ev-buyers/
...etc...�
Jan 26, 2011
qwk You guys are wasting your time. This guy KNOWS he is wrong but will never admit it.
His arguments just do not hold water. Unless you live in a single wide from the 60's, it will easily support the HPC. Every house/apartment I have been to(I check because of curiosity) has at least a 200 amp service.
It's fairly safe to assume that somebody who can afford a 60+k car, will not live in a $hithole.�
Jan 26, 2011
Doug_G I was astonished to discover that my six year old house had 100 amp service. Fortunately it wasn't a big deal to have the service upgraded.�
Jan 26, 2011
Todd Burch The coolest part is that next year, I'm going to be writing an enormous check to a small Silicon Valley start-up car company...it won't end up in Detroit. So I'll let my money speak for itself.
Ain't Capitalism grand?�
Jan 26, 2011
Eberhard the point is: is 160 miles option better then 300 miles option if you can only charge with low amps. Nooo as bigger as better. Less stress to the batterie by only using 40% instead of 80% capacity. If you need to go for 100 miles, you has to add the same amount of juice independent of the size of the capacity. Maybe you have to add even less at the bigger size battery, because there was more juice left before. Therefore you can even save time for charging because you are able to move the charging time when it is more comfortable.�
Jan 26, 2011
qwk Very interesting.
It seems that other countries have much lower amp breaker boxes.�
Jan 26, 2011
dsm363 Yeah, guess the article just got me frustrated. I'll just let it go. Just wanted to vent one more time but not tie up the Model S spec thread. Thanks.�
Jan 26, 2011
Eberhard I have 400V/32A in my garage but can charge with only 1/3 = 7kW instead of 22kW. Hope Model S will support 3-phase charging. i charge my roadster from 10pm using the cheap juice through the night. 8h always fill the battery, even if it was fully drained before.�
Jan 26, 2011
cinergi Doing this sort of thing in written form is also ineffective (it would be interesting to do it in person). While I agree that all of us trying to convince him he's wrong is a waste of time, I think it would be a good use of time to understand WHY he believes what he does, because he's not alone, and he (and the others) have a voice. The better we understand our "enemy" the more effective we can all be at fighting the enormous battle we have yet to wage to get EVs accepted by the general public. That battle is my greated fear for EV's (and not the technology itself). I feel much more hopeful now than I would have if I were doing this back in the EV1 days, however.�
Jan 26, 2011
dsm363 If you've read the article and all of the comments, you'll notice that the article originally stated that Tesla claims it will have a 300 mile pack but that it will take at least 14 hours to charge and will be effectively unusable for long trips. After multiple people pointed out his math didn't quite work out, he admitted that maybe it could charge faster than that but that the infrastructure wasn't there and that most households probably couldn't install a Tesla HPC anyway without thousands of dollars of work. I agree though. It's very difficult to have a discussion like this in a comments section on a website.�
Jan 26, 2011
cinergi Right -- I guess my point is more about why do people immediately find reasons for EVs to fail, to fail to do their research, to fail to trust the experts and existing users, etc. How can we draw convincing analogies to, e.g., what happened when gasoline-powered cars first came out (reminding people about the natural progression of stuff like this)? Reminding them that an EV doesn't need to satisfy the needs of 100% of the population. That the 1 time per year (or less) that I want to take a road trip that might be too inconvenient in an EV can be solved in other ways. etc. Even in the face of these arguments, these folks latch on to the negative ... why? Any psychologists in the house?
Even my friends .. "reasonable people" who aren't afraid of technology, have to be convinced. "When was the last time you drove over 200 miles? Connecticut? No, that's not 200 miles from here." "You have two cars, right?" "You could take a train, or rent a car, or go with a friend, right?" etc ... They start seeing the light, but their automatic reaction is "no way."
Edit: I think most of us would agree it's largely fear of the unknown (a general trait of human nature); so what's the most sharp and succinct way to break through that?�
Jan 26, 2011
dsm363 I'm not sure but I think just telling people your personal experiences with the car helps. People tend to believe information from their friends more than some random source. I've told all of my friends how much fun the Roadster is but throw in that the major benefits apply to all EVs like the Leaf and Model S...etc�
Jan 26, 2011
dpeilow Here is my latest (and hopefully last) salvo at DetroitBureau
�
Jan 27, 2011
Jaff :biggrin: In fact, it's really the only hard part of driving the Roadster! :biggrin::wink:
�
Jan 27, 2011
howabout2 The part of this that frustrates me: hasn't the shelf life on this particular message expired? I know journalism as an industry is rife with repetition and journalists like few things more than sounding like wise curmudgeons cautioning the reckless and hapless public of the pitfalls of over-exuberance. "Don't let your excitement get the best of you, electric vehicles aren't cut out for everyone!"
Woe is me! Not for everyone? What ever will I do? I hope I can remember this insightful message long enough to hold off on buying one in reckless abandon before next week, when the next article cautioning me of the same thing is due to hit the presses.
I've heard it before, and it's always the same message. Watch out for range; it will sneak up and bite you! Watch out for charge times, they can be longer than a trip to the gas station!
I am so eager to read the next article telling me electric cars are not for everyone. I keep losing track of time, too, so I hope the next article reminds me that it's 2011.
Outside of the small circle of insiders we have here and the more savvy among the automotive press, the real story of electric driving gets lost. The world at large is told they need to worry about range, when everyone who drives an electric car is over that. Meanwhile, we sit here worrying with genuine passion about potential stupid laws that would add artificial noise to cars because what else do we do while we wait for the Model S to arrive ... talk about range? Range is old news. Charge time? You charge it over night; who cares about charge time?
Journalists: please write articles about electric vehicles that say something new. Interview Tesla about the Model S' in-car operating system. How much will we be able to customize it? Will it be Android based? Tell me something new. I know the range already!�
Jan 27, 2011
vfx Electric cars are fun!?�
Jan 27, 2011
dsm363 Well, it looks like he's done with the comment section
I don't know him, his work or his reputation but have to say this is disappointing to say the least. If I wrote something and people pointed out factual errors, not matters of faith as he put it, then I'd want to correct it. That would be the professional thing to do.�
Jan 27, 2011
Doug_G Translation: You hurt my ego. Go away.�
Jan 27, 2011
dsm363 Yeah. Strange. Oh well. Thought it was possible to reason with the author of such an article but I guess not.�
Jan 27, 2011
qwk For doing it 32 years, he sure sucks at doing basic research, not to mention 2nd grade math.�
Jan 27, 2011
strider I'm finding that in general most people have no idea how many miles away things are. Especially in urban areas we think in terms of time rather than distance. I will admit that when I first got my Roadster I would obsessively map the distances between points before I travelled them to make sure I had enough range. Just to give you an example at the height of my craziness I did a range mode charge (and even topped it up right before we left - freaked me out when regen didn't work) before visiting some friends for Thanksgiving. Turns out the actual distance to their place was 50 miles
But after doing this for a week or so I figured out that my driving involved a lot fewer actual miles than I thought and I had more than enough range. So it is an adjustment for people - range anxiety is real. I agree w/ Cinergi, most people's reaction is to say no. You just have to be patient w/ people and help them figure out that 160 or 230 mile range will cover nearly everything they do. I also tell people that we're keeping one ICE vehicle (well, a Diesel Jeep running biodiesel) for long trips and that nearly every 2-car household could have one car be an EV without even blinking.�
Jan 27, 2011
dsm363 That's key I think. Telling people that they'll still have one gas powered car for longer trips makes them feel better. I kept my VW for that reason.�
Jan 27, 2011
cinergi I'm still that way after 3 months -- I have NO idea how far away things are. I don't generally drive far enough that I feel like I need to calculate it, but there are a couple trips that I might do in the future where I'm concerned. And I'm way too lazy to search for a plug in an area I don't know.�
Jan 27, 2011
dpeilow And if, as he claims, we are all misinterpreting his 14 hours comment, he sucks at English language too. Pretty unfortunate for a tech journalist.�
Jan 28, 2011
dsm363 It's safe to say that at best his English sucks - at best=)�
Jan 28, 2011
Jaff Eisenstein's reply was cowardly & gutless...one should admit one's mistakes, especially in the face of a disciplne so easily proved (math).
His reputation is now besmirched...has now decended to an even lower level...from malinformed journalist to malicious journalist) imo.
�
Jan 28, 2011
vfx About now you will just stop paying attention to miles left. It's fine. You know in your mind, your "MDM" or Miles Driven Memory. You have have a feel for distances now. If not, you will be close and heading back to your plug and the car will beep at you on the way but you will be fine.�
Jan 29, 2011
dsm363 Yeah. I don't even really look anymore on a normal driving day since I always start full. Even better than an ICE in that respect. If I'm taking a longer trip then I think about it a little more of course.�
Jan 30, 2011
Kevin Sharpe the final word from Paul A. Eisenstein?
Sorry, Kevin, I don�t feel I erred. Any more than I expect you will be posting your error in any of your outlets, acknowledging that people will very likely not have the ultra-high-capacity chargers and, under most circumstances will be unlikely to be able to charge the Tesla Model S 300-mile model in anywhere near the 5-6 hour timeframe you like to claim. Most will be at 10, 15 hours and even longer.
End of debate. You�re welcome to continue posting, of course, but I have laid out my position and feel I am correct�and have been more than willing to allow questions to be raised and posted.
Thanks,
Paul A. Eisenstein
Publisher, TheDetroitBureau.com�
Jan 30, 2011
dsm363 Jeez. I would say 'most' people buying this car would at least bother to get a 240V 30A circuit and probably a 50A circuit. A 30A outlet can charge the Roadster in 10 hours so maybe the 300 mile pack will be around 12 hours. He's right that not everyone will opt for a 70A charger but really, 15 hours or longer will be the norm? Oh well, we tried but he's obviously a very, very well respected auto journalist so he must be right=)
He still doesn't address why the 300 mile pack will be "effectively useless". He obviously has an agenda of some sort since he refuses to correct any of his errors. He could have easily written an article about the lack of a fast charging infrastructure and why it makes long journeys in an EV more difficult but instead chose to criticize Tesla and imply that they must be lying about their 300 mile pack.�
Jan 30, 2011
Doug_G He's completely wrong. I'd love to have the 300 mile pack. The most frequent road trip I take is Ottawa to Toronto, and I could do that non-stop and have plenty of margin left.
Almost anyone can install a 50 amp outlet in their garage without upgrading their service, and it doesn't cost much. Even though I have an HPC I almost always charge at 40A anyway. It starts charging at 1:00 am, and it's always done long before I wake up in the morning.�
Jan 30, 2011
dsm363 Exactly! I have a 50A outlet but every single person I've talked to with a HPC 70A charger drops their charging down to 32 - 40A anyway. The only real advantage I see to having a HPC at home is that if other Roadster owners come for a visit, you can recharge them and get them on their way faster.
Here's what I posted, I think I'm done with this guy too. He's not a serious journalist I guess or just stubborn.
�
Jan 30, 2011
dsm363 Here's his bio on The Daily Beast
I guess he also posts for Autoblog.com
http://www.autoblog.com/bloggers/paul-eisenstein/
From one of his posts:
and
It's funny, he's attacking EVs for not having much range and then criticizes the Model S 300 mile pack for having too much? He also includes the Volt in his list of cars with 'range anxiety'. As a 30 year veteran of the auto industry, including plug-in cars with a ICE engine in the 'range anxiety' category is very strange.�
Jan 30, 2011
jaanton Eisenstein shows as an example of the old thinking. He doesn't get it. I don't think he wants to get it. There's a reason that Tesla isn't there and that reason is you can't beat some guys with a clue-by-4 enough. The writing is wishy-washy. He's actually insulting the general public by suggesting the fleet managers are smart enough to go electric but the general public is not. The longer some pundit has been covering an industry the longer they get stuck with their own rules.
2012 is the year that electric cars will be tested by "Crossing the Chasm" or not. Given the demand for the Volt and Leaf and that so many car manufacturers are about to have vehicles >>without direct government mandates<< (ok they have to have an overall mandate yea yea yea) it looks like a slam dunk to me (and probably everyone reading this.)�
Jan 30, 2011
dpeilow He made some changes based on my early comments on the Ford charger, but...
�
Jan 30, 2011
Eberhard This week i have to make a trip with my Roadster over a distance of 430km. My charging-station, a private 400V/32A socket, made open to the public, is after 250km. This means, 180km to my destination are left. I will charge 3-4h giving me 120-160km additional Range until i can read at least 200km ideal range in standard mode. I will not charge complete full, because i know, at the end of my trip i will charge my car overnight to full. With my Model S of course, I can do the trip in one without the need for a break to charge the car.�
Jan 31, 2011
dsm363 He won't change it. He has over 32 years of experience and must be correct in his mind.
Even if he were to remove the 'unusable' and 'at best' phrases and leave the incorrect information with the 14 hours, it would still be a better article. He's using loaded and exaggerated phrases on purpose to try and bring EVs down since he thinks they won't succeed and are basically useless in his mind.�
Jan 31, 2011
Jaff I agree jaanton...the guy's not stupid, he's just being arrogant and won't admit his mistakes.
Normally, not a big issue...but when this is your make-up and you have the power of the pen, ...:frown:
�
Jan 31, 2011
dsm363 Well, he now says he's made his last comment on the matter and guess what, he stands by his '14 hour' comment. Here's part of his post:
So he's saying in the same post that houses would need to be massively upgraded to 70A chargers for our numbers to be anywhere near accurate but that the people he's heard from with the 70A chargers almost never charge at 70A. Say what? He's right that most people with higher power chargers don't charge at the fastest rate so what's his complaint again?�
Jan 31, 2011
dpeilow He's now subtly tried to imply that by talking about 110V and the Focus/LEAF charger in the preceeding paragraph, his "at best" claim refers to if you were charging on such a service. We're therefore all trying to twist his words.
A total straw man and it deserves to be demolished.�
Jan 31, 2011
dsm363 I e-mailed Tesla about this article saying someone from their PR department should contact them since he's citing Tesla and Mr. Rawlinson as some of his sources.
Yes, he has some good points about the state of the public charging infrastructure but loses all credibility with the way he writes his article. The Model S and 300 mile pack have nothing to do with his main critiques yet he holds them up as a major problem.�
Jan 31, 2011
Jaff He couldn't even spell Rawlinson (Rollinson) correctly.
Look at it this way Mr. E...we've got our diaries marked (for it won't be that long now) when some of us start receiving our new TM Model S...we might not have the 300 mile pack ready, but as a courtesy to keep you in the loop, we'll be more than happy to disclose our 260 mile pack's charging times to you :biggrin:...in fact we'll be sure to let you know of our charge times when we get our 300 mile packs:biggrin:...don't want you to worry about it Mr. E...we'll remind ya...we gotcha covered...:biggrin::wink:�
Jan 31, 2011
dpeilow Maybe there's an imposter at Tesla who can't do math and knows nothing about the product...�
Jan 31, 2011
dsm363 The person I e-mailed at Tesla responded. They are aware of that article and their PR department is working on trying to correct some of the inaccuracies.�
Jun 18, 2011
dsm363 He did post this newer article with the same old arguments a few months ago.
Tesla Sets Price, Production Plans for Model S | TheDetroitBureau.com�
Oct 3, 2011
dsm363 Old post but I had to send him another e-mail:
I was wondering if you were working on a new story for the Model S that revisits some of the things you were worried about. You had stated that there was no way Tesla could deliver a 300 mile pack without at least a 100 kWh and more likely a 110 kWh battery pack. Also that charging would take 12-14 hours 'at best'. I'm reading the 300 mile pack is around 85 kWh which is what other people are reporting.
Here's your original article
Tesla's Model S: All Dressed Up and Nowhere to Go? | TheDetroitBureau.com
"The larger Model S, with its huge 300-mile battery, would, at best require about 14 hours to get back on the road � at best."
The Tesla will come with a 240V 40A charger. I'll let you redo the math once you confirm the battery pack size but it's still less than 14 hours. It can also accept up to 80A on a level 2 charger.
"There is an alternative, said Rollinson, when pressed with this analysis, Level III chargers, which use 440 volts converted to DC current. For vehicles like the Leaf and Focus Electric, such systems could yield an 80% quick �fill-up� in as little as 20 to 30 minutes. Even then, the 300-mile Model S might need a couple hours."
Tesla will be installing their own fast charging network. Yes, this will take time but it will not take a couple of hours to charge the 300 mile pack with this system. I suggest you contact Tesla again for more specifics so you can correct your article or write a new one. Thanks.�
Oct 3, 2011
Mycroft I suspect you'll just be hearing some crickets.�
Oct 3, 2011
Eberhard teslas fastcharger consists of 9x 10kW onboard charger. output is 90kW running on 277V/480V 120A 3-phase power. can charge 80% within 45min.�
Oct 4, 2011
dsm363 He did respond to my e-mail. Once again has tons or errors and refuses to correct his old article.
Tesla to Take on BMW M5 with Model S | TheDetroitBureau.com
My comment is awaiting moderation but I sent a much longer e-mail to him:
A few points:
1) the Better Place model is not a priorty for Tesla. They are looking for DC charging as a much cheaper way to accomplish the same goal.
2) The 300 mile pack can be charged in as little as 45 minutes (not 4 hours) with the DC charger (95 kW) according to Tesla�s website and their engineers who were at the event.
3) The Model S does not have a 4 to 7 kW charger. It has one, maybe two 10 kW onboard chargers allowing up to 240V 80A for charging.
4) Tesla says the Model S will start at $49,900 (after the $7,500 federal tax credit)�
Oct 4, 2011
dsm363 Can the people who really know what they're talking about post a comment under the article or send him an e-mail? Thanks.�
Oct 4, 2011
ckessel His new article is pretty vacant of detail in general. Better than the last one in terms of less misinformation, but he clearly just doesn't care about Tesla or EVs. Might be better to avoid poking the bear and prompting him to put up something worse.�
Oct 4, 2011
dsm363 Yeah. The title says it all "If you don't care about range". That's what they call reporting.�
Oct 4, 2011
dpeilow Only to you mate. What a douche.�
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