Mar 10, 2015
ToddRLockwood First, let me say that I am delighted that Tesla developed an all wheel drive version of the Model S, and that with the P85D they have once and for all settled the argument that electric cars will never match the performance of gasoline powered cars. But in the process of creating an all out super-sedan, Tesla may have inadvertently walked away from a lucrative market segment.
The market I'm referring to is buyers who want sporty performance, above average handling, but who do not require all wheel drive and do not need insane acceleration. With the P85D, Tesla has pushed the Model S into rarified territory. As a former Ferrari owner, I would define "rarified" as a car that requires wider wheels in the rear than in the front, and which has sub-four-second zero-to-sixty acceleration. These traits are typically found on serious sports cars, not on cars used on a daily basis. Tires on such vehicles cannot be rotated, and in the case of the P85D the tire cost differential is substantial. A set of 21-inch Michelin Pilot Sport tires for a P85D costs $1,800 vs. $1,200 for a set of 21-inch Pilot Sport tires for my P85.
In Tesla's current vehicle lineup, the 85 (RWD) offers zero-to-sixty acceleration of 5.4 seconds, or 5.2 seconds for the 85D (AWD). The original P85 (RWD) has a 4.2 second zero-to-sixty. So a buyer who wants a sporty suspension and a bit more acceleration than the 85 has only one choice � to go all the way to the P85D with its substantially higher price, higher tire costs, and shorter range. In my opinion, Tesla has eliminated the sweet spot for those who do not require all wheel drive, but do want a vehicle with a sporty feel.
The P85+ offered buyers a way to take the P85's handling up another notch, at the cost and inconvenience of wider rear wheels, but at least it was optional. While the P85+ was in production, Tesla was also making improvements to the P85 suspension, making the P85 an even better option for daily use combined with sporty handing. Unfortunately, this configuration has been eliminated in a bid to push buyers into a more expensive vehicle. I think Tesla make a mistake in dropping the P85. They've created a gap in their product line that would fulfill the needs of many buyers.�
Mar 10, 2015
fiksegts The P85D's are now being delivered with non-staggered tires. Even so, at this price point and performance level, I'm not concerned about a few extra hundred $ in tires.
I always thought the P85+ was a rip-off with limited benefits, I had a loaner a few weeks ago and confirmed my thoughts. This p85+ loaner had an MSRP of $129k, the P85D isn't much more, so why continue to produce it when you can have the added power, traction and stability of the P85D.�
Mar 10, 2015
ToddRLockwood The window sticker from my fully-loaded 2013 P85 shows a price of $101,850. As I recall, the PLUS Suspension option would have added $6,500. Granted, there's been at least one price increase since then, and many items that were standard on the P85 back then are now options. For a P85 owner now considering an upgrade, I either have to dumb down the performance and handling, or pay a lot more money for features I don't really need.�
Mar 10, 2015
Kalud I fully agree with you Todd. In case I wreck my P85 I would be in a difficult situation because, of course, I would be tempted by the P85D for its performance but would prefer a P85 with its useful Frunk where I carry a double stroller most of the time and luggage otherwise. I need a performance minivan since we have 3 children. When I'm back alone in the car I enjoy the acceleration and handling. I guess I would have to choose between a CPO P85, a new S85 or a P85D... I can understand why people want AWD too, my former car was an AWD BMW and I loved it but I prefer RWD.�
Mar 10, 2015
fiksegts yea, my P85 msrp is $103k loaded up, they had some major prices increase since though, the same car a few months later was $116k....
�
Mar 10, 2015
3s-a-charm I'm sure they will bring back the P85/P85+ in some variant soon.�
Mar 10, 2015
gavine The OP is from Vermont and doesn't want AWD? Anyway, I agree with him and think the P85 was a great mix and I was surprised that they got rid of it when the P85D came out. Why not keep that option?�
Mar 10, 2015
SherSlick I am in Colorado and don't want AWD. I only opted for it because: A. Insane acceleration B. It was a small price difference from the P85+ I had on order at the time.
When I am driving on the track having a strictly RWD car has MANY benefits, even against the SMARTEST of AWD cars.�
Mar 10, 2015
zwede They should bring back the P85+ (minus staggered wheels), but call it "P85" and price it like the old P85. That would put it nicely in between the current offerings.�
Mar 10, 2015
neroden Bluntly, nobody at all "needs" the P. It's purely a discretionary entertainment feature.
However, if the original poster is correct, then Tesla is missing a large market of people willing to spend a bundle for the "P" (at great profit to Tesla) who do not want AWD. This would be an oversight which would lose substantial profits for Tesla.�
Mar 10, 2015
mikeash I'd guess that they eliminated the P85 option to keep the production line simplified and push people looking to spend more money to the even more expensive (and profitable) P85D. If so, they may bring it back once P85D demand is more satisfied and production capacity grows.�
Mar 10, 2015
ToddRLockwood Haha. I've driven my P85 through two Vermont winters, including numerous ski trips. If the snow gets really serious, I'll pull out my old Audi�if for no other reason, to avoid putting the Tesla at risk. This winter I've been using Nokian R2 snow tires on the Tesla which are simply amazing.
- - - Updated - - -
Exactly. The P85 suspension (which originally included the air suspension option) had been taken to a pretty advanced level before it and the P85+ were discontinued.
- - - Updated - - -
I checked with Tesla Sales at the headquarters this morning. Tesla will not deliver a P85D with non-staggered 21-inch tires. They explained that the P85D suspension is specifically tuned for the wider rear tires and that driving the car with non-staggered 21-inch tires could cause handling problems under high lateral loads. Obviously, one can use non-staggered 19-inch tires in the winter, with the assumption that you'll be driving less aggressively in the wintertime.�
Mar 10, 2015
Victory If staggered wheels were your concern, isn't it as simple as changing to a non-staggered setup?�
Mar 10, 2015
SherSlick Aside from the major compromise in the handling (traction) characteristics, pretty much.�
Mar 10, 2015
ToddRLockwood Since the factory does not support it, I assume that the service centers won't either. So if your P85D needed an alignment, for example, the service center might not do it. There's also the cost of two more 21-inch wheels and tires to replace the original wider ones.
Separate from this is the issue that many owners simply don't need AWD and might actually prefer RWD. (I've heard this from several former P85 owners who traded up to a P85D � While the AWD is nice, it feels "different," especially when powering through turns.) And if they are trading up from a P85, they'd have to settle for less power if they want to stay with RWD.�
Mar 10, 2015
JohnnyMac This! Bring back the P85 power w/o the added D cost / AWD.�
Mar 10, 2015
JST I'll second all of this. I don't want a P85D--actively do not want it. Wouldn't buy it if it cost the same as an S85. I don't want or need AWD, don't want the lower efficiency and I especially don't want the smaller frunk.
I *would* like something with a little more juice than my S85. The RWD P85 would have been a perfect upgrade, but now I'm not sure what I'll do when it's time to swap. Maybe find a used P85?
My guess is that Tesla is steering customers toward the higher margin P85D while that car is still new, and that we may see a reintroduction of a "mid-range" performance model at some point. I hope so.�
Mar 10, 2015
dennis That is absolutely not true. My P85D was delivered 10 days ago with non-staggered 245/35/21 Continental tires. I thought this was a build error and the DS went off to investigate. He said that the ordering website no longer stated either tire size or brand for the P85D so the car was built correctly. There is a whole thread about this here.
I believe Tesla went to the staggered setup when the + was introduced to provide more margin against the car oversteering to comply with FMVSS 126 specifications for Electronic Stability Control Systems. It is likely that changes to the suspension and the AWD no longer make this a requirement for the P85D.�
Mar 10, 2015
MsElectric I disagree. The P85 makes absolutely no sense for the vast majority of customers looking to buy a Model S when for a tiny fraction more $ they can buy a P85D. Also with AWD the P85D is also going to be a lot safer in the hands of most drivers. Most typical drivers will have better control of the car with AWD.
I'm sure a small fraction of potential buys would miss not being able to purchase a high performance RWD EV but it probably made no financial sense for Tesla to entertain that small segment of buyers.
@ToddRLockwood: Dennis is right. Staggered wheels are no longer standard in the P85D and again I prefer it that way. You can now rotate tires. Unless you drive through a racetrack on your way to work you'd hardly notice much of a difference. Even the 19" wheels are larger than what you typically get with most other "performance" cars.�
Mar 10, 2015
tomas Keep it up, Todd! My classic brown P85 with lacewood just keeps getting more and more unique and desirable!�
Mar 10, 2015
fiksegts you can't track a Tesla so moot point....
�
Mar 10, 2015
mknox That's actually a good point in that used P85's may retain a higher resale value that they would have otherwise.�
Mar 10, 2015
Alysashley79 why exactly can you not track a tesla? Big this is a warranty thing many people are well beyond the warranty point.
Im with the OP on this. I drove a P85D and while yes it's 1 second faster than my RWD P85 I prefer MY car to the D. I've said it before it's all about the tires. I know my tag says Seattle but I'm not in the city. I live only about 500' lower than where everyone skis here. I have never once regretted not having AWD even driving through 2-3' of snow my MS powers through.
I love my tesla but wouldn't want a D if something happened to my car. I'd want another P85.�
Mar 10, 2015
artsci Only in the world of affluent Tesla owners is $25,000 or so a "tiny fraction" more. To the other 99 percent of the world that's a mountain.�
Mar 10, 2015
fiksegts The Tesla gets hot and pulls power very quickly.... won't make it more than one lap around most tracks...
�
Mar 10, 2015
Alysashley79 Interesting...I was at an all electric event here at a track last year and there were several Teslas out there pushing 100mph+ (I believe the lead car was going 114mph in a tesla) 5 laps.�
Mar 10, 2015
Gizmotoy Pretty much what I was thinking. I got excited, thinking "Is that really true?!?", only to find a P85D is substantially more (~$16k) than my P85 was similarly-equipped, and the only price increases since I purchased are the small Tech Package and Carbon Fiber increases. That's a whole brand new car to a good chunk of the population. Even to those of us here, a ~15% premium isn't exactly "a tiny fraction more."
It's pretty clear that there's room in the $25k gap between the 85 and the P85D for a RWD Performance variant. I think they're just scrambling to bring the number of options down to save costs. It'll probably return at some point.
I did sets of 4-5 laps (entire session length) at Laguna over the summer. I got 1 unlimited lap, and the rest were limited. Even limited it had enough power to hit 100 into the straight heading into turn 1. So, yes, you can track it. Yes, it does overheat. No, it's not really a huge problem for HPDEs.
�
Mar 10, 2015
CHG-ON I agree with you Todd. I bought a P85+, delivered at the end of Sept, shortly before the D announcement. I am not the least bit unhappy. I really wanted a RWD car. I have been driving AWD for years, love it and still have one. But I really enjoy the RWD for fun stuff. I guess my only regret would be that I did pony up for the + variant, which is clearly not worth the money and future costs for staggered tires. But to be perfectly honest, I really don't care. I still love the car!�
Mar 10, 2015
caddieo With so many comments moaning about the stoppage of P85 production and the expressions of preference for the P85 over the P85D for most day-to-day needs and situations, it looks as if we have the beginnings of a CLASSIC CAR.
I, like others on this thread, would like to hang on to my P85 and do not relish the thought of having to go with an overkill if I have to replace it.�
Mar 10, 2015
mesalum I had a P85 on order when the D announcement happened. Stuck with my P85 order. I kept my AWD MDX if I need AWD. Did not want AWD or need it on my car. I love the performance of the P85. In my case I want a P85. Let people decide what they need or want for themselves. I am tired of blanket statements like "Bluntly, nobody at all "needs" the P. It's purely a discretionary entertainment feature." Who are you to say what other people need?
I too believe removing the P85 is a bad business decision.�
Mar 10, 2015
tomas Or even for the affluent, better spent on lighted T, appliqu�, cool wheels, down lights, etc. :wink: plus a few vacations, dinners, and parties!�
Mar 10, 2015
ToddRLockwood I was simply repeating what someone at the factory told me this morning. He wasn't sure of the answer at first, so he checked with a manager and called me back. It also appears to be the policy at our regional Tesla store in Natick MA. Clearly this contradicts your ordering experience as well as those who chimed in on the thread you provided. It appears that Tesla does not have a consistent policy regarding non-staggered tires on a P85D.�
Mar 10, 2015
AmpedRealtor I completely agree. I bought a P85 because I didn't need the + stuff but wanted better acceleration than the S85 offered. Now there is a performance hole between 3.2 seconds and 5.2 seconds that would be very nicely filled by the P85. Here's to hoping that P85 resales will be more popular for this reason, resulting in higher demand and lower inventory.
- - - Updated - - -
Tiny fraction, really? Let's see... I paid $106,750 for my P85. A P85D today with the same options would cost over $15,000 more. Sorry, but that's not "a tiny fraction more" unless you consider 15% to be a tiny fraction. I don't.�
Mar 10, 2015
brianman I'm with you until the underlined. IMO it is a pretty significant issue, though "huge" is a bit strong. Does it prevent attending the events, or making them worthwhile? Definitely not. Does it dampen the experience? Definitely.�
Mar 10, 2015
Gizmotoy Right. I was careful with my words. It could definitely be better, but I wouldn't let that stop me, and I wouldn't discourage anyone from taking it for that reason. Even limited it was within a few tenths of my dedicated track car (which is admittedly down 100HP). Beyond that, it's surprisingly good for practicing your lines. It's not the weight, so it had to be the low center of gravity and corner-exit torque, I guess. As a "track car" it's definitely a serious issue. As a daily driver you can take to the track, I don't see it as a huge deterrent.
�
Mar 10, 2015
dennis I don't doubt that is what they told you. I just don't see how staggered wheels on the P85D can be the policy at the Natick store since there is no way to specify which wheels are to be fitted to a P85D when you order. In the absence of an ordering option, the factory determines what wheels and tires go on the P85D, whether the car is delivered in Natick or Fremont (where I ordered and took delivery of mine).
It is also possible that due to the port slowdown Tesla is unable to get enough Michelin PS2's or 9" wheels to mount on all P85D's. Given that they meet the engineering specs, Bridgestones in 245/35 may be being substituted temporarily.�
Mar 10, 2015
fiksegts If the Tesla clearly can't handle the load/heat, why keep pushing it? I would never keep running/tracking one of my ICE cars if it was too hot for it's normal operating parameters and pulling back power... of course electric vs ICE is different, but Tesla is trying to protect "something" by pulling back power and ramping up the fans into the high mode...
�
Mar 10, 2015
luvnMyTS I agree. Yes prices have increased a few times over the past year. But, I believe the P85 was a $5,000 option over the base 85. Not bad at all for a full second gain in 0-60 acceleration. Yes, the P85+ seemed to be way over priced for another $7,000 or so, for suspension related items only. The P85 was a perfect car for those that wanted just a little more. Actually got a lot more for a minimal price increase. The new P85D is a $20,000 price increase over the base 85. The 85D is a $5,000 premium over the RWD version. So they're charging $15,000 for the big rear motor now instead of the previous $5,000 premium for the big rear motor.
Makes no sense for them to drop it completely. Just use the big motor they already have and leave the front motor out of it. It's really just a matter of which motor to pull off the shelf when they're building the car. So it's not like it requires a different assembly line.
Or, if they really don't want to, then considering all the price increases lately (They've gone up a lot. My $92,000 2013 would be $102,000 if built exactly the same way today), then give the base model a bump in horsepower. A lot of the price increases are just "price increases" with nothing special added. The tech package being the exception since it now includes the Auto Pilot. But other than that, just more money for the same car. I think they should at least give the buyers SOMETHING for the extra money. I'd be the P85 rear motor likely doesn't cost them hardly anything more than the base 85 motor, so throw that into the base cars instead.
Would put their "base" model well ahead of the base models of other cars they're effectively trying to compete against. The added benefit too would be that it likely wouldn't affect insurance premiums if it was still considered a base model. Insurance company asked me and said a P85 would carry a 15% higher premium.�
Mar 10, 2015
yobigd20 Well I've done sustained 100mph for 80 miles straight in my P85 so I can disprove that theory.�
Mar 10, 2015
yobigd20 It was a $15k price difference , but actually a few thousand less than that if you were optioning leather seats and air suspension on the S. So more like $12k premium.�
Mar 10, 2015
Alysashley79 when I took delivery of my P85 in November 13 the P85 was a base price $10k more than the. S85.
When the D was announced and there was the short window that you could order both a P85 and a P85D the price difference was only $5k. Then they did away with the P85 and my car species today exactly the same would be $18k more than it was back then.�
Mar 10, 2015
fiksegts that is not the same as having the car on the track where you have to accelerate and decelerate repeatedly....
the P85 actually handles repeat acceleration better than the P85D, I have a video of a P85D and P85 racing repeatedly, during the 2nd or 3rd race the P85 actually pulled away from the P85D.....
�
Mar 10, 2015
Gizmotoy They're not really comparable. Only the most recent of sports cars would even have the ability to pull back power. Most ICE vehicles will simply let you overheat them. Not only that, ICE vehicles routinely overheat at track days.
This is not an EV-only problem. It's not uncommon to see some sweaty guy hop out of his car after a session because he had the heat on full blast to draw it out of the engine bay, and most veterans are keeping tabs on the temp gauge specifically because the car can't tell them it's being pushed too hard by reducing power. We don't have that problem.
Anyway, after 5 hard laps I only ever hit the first power reduction. According to the Tesla engineers at the track there were two more reductions the car would take if necessary. They also claimed the issue was mainly because the car waits too long to start ramping up the cooling. If it somehow knew ahead of time to provide more cooling (think Track Mode) that it wouldn't have been as big an issue. Anyway, the fans were much louder at the Superchargers between sessions than they were on the track. I don't think it's that big an issue. It can handle it.�
Mar 11, 2015
David_Cary I'm surprised at the lack of clarity here on price differences between models. The P to my knowledge was never $5k. When I was doing the math way back when (few months ago), the P85D was just a "fraction" more than what a P85+ would be +$5k for the AWD. I feel that the P85D was a better "deal" than the P.
Outside of enthusiasts (ie forum junkies), most people who get a P85+ probably load up the car (the two I know are all options except rear seats). It is the flagship and those buyers went to the P85D without question or concern.
So I appreciate the discussion of bring the P85 back but the market maybe pretty small. Personally having driven both, I'd take the P85D because of the feeling when powering out of a corner. Alas I went with the S85 because I am cheap and it is fast enough. But I gave the P85D much more thought than I gave the P85.�
Mar 11, 2015
Dennis87 RWD is on its way out on many high performance cars. More and more cars will have 4wd in the future. Even BMW M5 is going for 4wd
The fastest production cars on nurbugring today like the Porsche 918 and Nissan Gtr have 4wd, so it proves that rwd do not perform better on the track.�
Mar 11, 2015
ToddRLockwood I was thinking the same thing. Clearly, if the car can be driven with non-staggered 19-inch wheels, this can't be too serious an issue. I believe you are correct that the staggered wheels, which originally appeared on the P85+, were in response to a regulation in addition to a small performance benefit.�
Mar 11, 2015
JST Just as a data point, the P85+ service loaner I have now (on CA mfgr plates) is on 19", non-staggered winter tires. That's the recommended winter package, as I understand it.
There's nothing magical about staggered tires.�
Mar 11, 2015
ToddRLockwood That is correct on the winter package. But when I called the factory yesterday, they told me that the P85D cannot be ordered with non-staggered 21-inch wheels & tires. This contradicts what some other owners have experienced when ordering. Perhaps Tesla softens this policy if they are running low on wider rear wheels or tires.�
Mar 11, 2015
mgboyes Tesla are at 100% production capacity - they can't make the cars fast enough. They're not "missing out" on any market segment - they are completely sold out of cars and couldn't make more if they wanted to.
In the UK at least a fully loaded P85D is pretty much the same price that a fully loaded P85+ was - slightly over �100k.
There are all sorts of rumours coming out about staggered vs non-staggered wheels, and also a switch of tyres to a new Continental ContiSport Silent that is being made specifically for the Model S. Nobody seems to know for sure. Sounds like it's the next-gen rear seat debacle all over again�
Mar 11, 2015
supratachophobia While I sympathize with the nearly 25k difference in S85D and P85D, I would rather they not release the P85 and keep the segment the way it is on the high end. This does a lot to help preserve the resale value of the P85's, which I think were/are a more valuable consumer segment as a whole to Tesla. I don't exactly think they are playing favorites, but it wouldnt surprise me if most of the early P85D adopters came from the P85 and if the margins on the P85 were significantly higher than other available trims. But even more importantly than that, their CPO values would take a substantial hit for any P85 in the program if you still had it sitting in the lineup as a new purchase option.
Now if you need to replace a P85 with another due to wreck, that is a tough cookie to be in. No wants to spend 10-15k more than they have to if the P85 met their needs for cargo and climate.
Very interesting comment on the P85 pulling away from the P85D on a second or third run. If I was looking to get out of a P, the time to do it would be right before the 110kw battery announcement. If you time it right, you solve the resale value problem and reduced power problem at the same time. And that announcement time is soon approaching with model x.�
Mar 11, 2015
AmpedRealtor My guess is that the P85 wasn't offered at the time you made the decision, and if it were, you would have found it to be a less expensive alternative to the P85D and with better performance than the RWD S85 that you did buy.�
Mar 11, 2015
MsElectric Tesla would not have discontinued the P85 unless demand for it was insignificant.
The P85D at around the same price range with the additional safety and performance of AWD made the P85 irrelevant overnight for most buyers with the exception of a few enthusiasts who might likes to go sideways
From a performance and safety standpoint AWD is the way to go for a high horsepower car for the vast majority of Tesla customers.
There is a reason Mercedes retooled pretty much their entire AMG lineup to be all AWD. You can no longer buy a Mercedes AMG sedan without AWD either and the rest of the premium high performance automakers are doing the same because it improves safety, traction, and performance.�
Mar 11, 2015
JST I disagree. I think Tesla discontinued the P85 because it calculated that the number of potential owners that would substitute up for the P85D was higher than the number of customers that would substitute down for the S85. In other words, they were able to drive the total fleet transaction cost higher.
That doesn't mean that the demand for the P85 was insignificant--just that Tesla figured it could make more money by forcing P85 intenders to choose between AWD and having less power.
A rational decision, IOW, even if it is one that I don't really care for.�
Mar 11, 2015
Gizmotoy Where are you getting this stuff? Weren't you the one earlier in the thread claiming the P85/P85D price differential was a "tiny fraction"? The models didn't really overlap, so there's no way to tell what the demand would have been.
Agreed. The demand for the P85 was high right up to the point it was discontinued. Tesla enjoyed huge success in pushing buyers to the P85, and reported they were surprised how many buyers took that option. We already taught them that a good portion of their buyers will buy the performance variant, and it makes financial sense to not cannibalize sales of the most expensive model by keeping the P85 around. Additionally, they were right in the middle of a huge options-reduction period to save costs. The choice was win-win.
They may also be taking their queues from other marques, which charge a lot more for their performance versions than the $10k Tesla was asking.�
Mar 11, 2015
MsElectric The bottom line is based on how well the P85D is doing the vast majority of Tesla customers care more about traction, safety, and performance than their car sliding sideways with the exception of some enthusiasts, of course
AWD enhances traction, performance, and safety and this is the reason why pretty much the entire premium auto industry is going AWD. Yes, Tesla will miss the market segment that likes drift and go sideways but that segment of customers will increasingly find a hard time buying a premium performance car without the benefit of AWD.�
Mar 11, 2015
Cyclone Even though I am not a Performance-oriented driver, I could see the argument for bringing back the P85. I totally understand and get killing off the P85+ with the P85D, but also removing the P85 was an interesting move. As many have said, it leaves a performance gap were many would like to see filled where they can get a performance boost, keep it RWD, and save versus "top of the line" or "flagship".�
Mar 11, 2015
MsElectric I completely agree with the performance gap being too large. We would have happily bought a S85D if it performed around 4.5s but at 5.2s it is slower than the current generation S class. I guess this was Tesla plan all along with the pricing. The 5.2s to 60 is going to be unremarkable for most people who want better performance compared to their E class, 5 series or S class and they all have no where to go than the P85D. I am glad they priced the P85D where they did and not higher as we would not have paid any higher for the car.
I do get the point that people are making with the lack of a RWD P version but I am just sharing my opinion that though it is a missed opportunity I don't think it affects Tesla all that because I bet most typical Model S buyers would rather have the enhanced safety, traction, and performance of AWD.�
Mar 11, 2015
dirkhh I think you are spot on. It's a rational decision - force people who want a 'P' into a higher base price option. I'm sure there's demand for a RWD P85. And I bet after crunching the numbers Tesla decided to not offer it.
Just as they dropped to S60D in order to get people who want AWD to pony up the extra $10k for the 85. Makes perfect business sense.�
Mar 11, 2015
AmpedRealtor You don't understand Tesla very well, I think. Tesla made a calculated decision to eliminate the P85 because it wanted to push all of those buyers into the even more expensive and higher margin P85D. The move worked out well for Tesla. Judging by the number of used P85s on the market, it was quite a popular configuration.
No, the price of the P85D is over $13,000 more than my P85. That's not "around the same price range", that's 15% more. The P85D made the P85 as irrelevant as the S85D made the S85 irrelevant, yet Tesla still offers the S85. Your hypothesis doesn't really make sense.
Not really. The vast majority of Tesla's customers are not looking for 600+ HP P85Ds. And as shown by the S85D, AWD is not exclusively for performance and high horsepower. The S85D is anemic when compared to the P85.�
Mar 11, 2015
tomas Gotta agree with Dirk and Amped this time... Dropping P85+ obvious. Dropping P85 a calculated decision... a bet that sales would not be lost, and more buyers would go UP $15k to P85D than would go DOWN to 85 or 85D.
Also, gotta agree with Todd, I think there's a performance niche there. The price niche is covered by the 85D, but the P85 rwd at same price holds more appeal for SOME buyers (geez, I hope nobody's gonna argue with THAT, as the posts on this thread make it pretty clear that a decent sample value it).
Tesla has hands full with X, 3, geographic expansion, etc., so I would not expect a new P85 anytime soon. More likely that a future something else will fill in that product line space. Maybe a coupe that comes in P85 and P85D variants? Or, a high end P3?�
Mar 11, 2015
mnx If my P85 got totalled I would be at a bit of a loss on what to replace it with. I'd probably try and find a used P85. I dunno maybe I'm in the minority but I guess I'm an enthusiast who likes to go sideways.
I think they should re-introduce the P85 with 2 motors in the rear for torque vectoring, and to split up the heat load so it can run longer on the track.�
Mar 11, 2015
MsElectric As I've said all along P85s might be preferable for enthusiasts that like to drive their cars sideways
It is still my opinion that the vast majority of Tesla customers will prefer the superior traction, performance, and safety that comes with AWD and any "missed opportunity" by Tesla not having a RWD P version is minimal...�
Mar 11, 2015
AmpedRealtor Yes, opinion would be the key word here.�
Mar 11, 2015
dirkhh I think we can all agree on this (even the people who think that the numbers somehow prove that the market for it is small - there still is appeal for SOME buyers).
The Model S coupe. Soon after Model X, Model 3, Roadster refresh, small SUV and pickup truck. Let's start a forum for the coupe...
Seriously - I think right now Tesla is taking the calculated risk that even the people for whom such a car would have more appeal will find something else in Tesla's tiny line-up that will keep them entertained for a while...
- - - Updated - - -
This is an interesting point. What happens if you total your four months old P85 (I drive one right now while Tesla tries to figure out what's wrong with the TACC on my car). If your insurance has the "replacement clause"... what do you replace it with? An S85 is definitely not the same car. And a P85D isn't either, plus it's MUCH more expensive...�
Mar 11, 2015
MsElectric Yup, whatever any of us says here is their own opinion�
Mar 11, 2015
Mnlevin In the southern part of the US there is no real need for AWD. I agree with the OP and Todd. I own a P85 and the list on that car was $103k. Even with a price increase you could get the car to around $110k. But today if you want a P85D it is about $130k+. There should be something less priced. I guess the want to keep the assembly line simple.�
Mar 11, 2015
neroden This is certainly true. Tesla has repeatedly changed options to simplify the assembly line. There weren't many paint colors to start with, and now there are fewer. Options keep getting folded into packages. Stuff has been shoved from configuration choices into the aftermarket store. (This includes even the dual chargers, where installation requires tearing the car apart and putting it back together -- and which are pretty much a mandatory option both in and near Canada.) I would say that they are doing anything they can to simplify the assembly line, even when it hurts a substantial segment of customers and doesn't seem to make much sense.�
Mar 11, 2015
Cyclone One could almost wonder if they needed to limit the variations not just for improving the production rate of Model S's, but gear up for Model X production. But then, that would mean trusting their Q3 2015 delivery date when they haven't even unveiled the production design of the MX.�
Mar 11, 2015
ToddRLockwood My sense is that, with the P85D, Tesla has pushed the value equation to the point where the pool of potential customers has started to shrink. According to today's Wall Street Journal, the delivery time for a P85D is down to 20 days. Either this means the assembly line is operating at breakneck speed or demand is slowing down. While it may appear that the P85D is only marginally more expensive than the P85+ was, Tesla systematically raised the price of the P85+ by charging for options that were previously included on performance models at no charge, such as 21-inch wheels, air suspension, and an upgraded interior. Charging for these items was likely done in anticipation of the P85D release, to make it appear to be a modest step up from a P85+. My fully loaded P85 cost $102K in 2013. If you subtract the $5K AWD premium from the P85D, that still leaves a ~$20K price increase over 18 months.
As I pointed out in my original post, this has created a substantial gap in Tesla's product line. A $110K RWD Performance model without staggered wheels but otherwise fully optioned would find a significantly larger market than the $125K P85D. If Tesla doesn't fill this gap, eventually another manufacturer will.�
Mar 11, 2015
Alysashley79 But then...why offer a RWD 85 and a RWD 60? I'd think if they were trying to simplify things they would only be D models available. They're using the same rear motor they used at the end of the year on the P85D as they used on the last few P85s. It seems like a $ game.�
Mar 11, 2015
joefee I agree with OP ... I have driven the +, PD and still prefer my P85!�
Mar 11, 2015
dirkhh We've seen this at the end of many quarters. The most expensive car is available within three weeks, everything else? Next quarter. We had this in 2013 and Elon said they'd stop doing that. We had it last year and he said they had started to stop doing that. And surprise, surprise, we have it this quarter again. I'm quite certain that in about a week delivery estimates for the P85D in the US will jump to late May.
- - - Updated - - -
No - they need a cheap model (S60, no supercharging, no tech, no nothing, $63k after tax break). Call it an entry level drug. The S85 is the "easy" upsell from there. And oh, for only an extra 5 grand you get AWD. And the P85D is what sucks your wallet dry�
Mar 11, 2015
dennis This is no different than last quarter. When I was in Fremont in late November to test drive an early P85D, there were still a couple hundred open build slots for P85Ds to be delivered in December - and this was before that had actually delivered any! Car manufacturers operating with the traditional dealer model come up with "factory incentives" to get dealers to take extra cars at the end of the quarter and thus maximize revenue and profit. Tesla does it by shifting the mix in the last month toward the highest margin vehicles. Just another form of yield management.�
Mar 11, 2015
richkae I do not believe that AWD is magic and provides superior safety in all cases.
In the snow a 2WD car with snow tires is almost always better than an AWD car with all seasons and those who believe they do not need snow tires because they have AWD have put themselves at risk.
Even with the same tires it is sometimes easier for the greatly unskilled to put an AWD car in the ditch than a 2WD car.
Whether you have 2WD or AWD you actually have the exact same amount of traction.
Each tire can exert the same amount of force on the road.
In a RWD car, 2 wheels can push you forward, and 2 wheels can turn you.
In an AWD car, all the wheels can push you forward, and the front wheels can do both turning and pushing. But if the front wheels are using some of their grip to push you forward, they actually have less available to turn you.
An AWD car has superior ability to push you forward, but not to turn your car, or slow you down.
Most may prefer it, and most may be safer with it, but not all.
Someone please correct me if I am wrong...�
Mar 12, 2015
ToddRLockwood Good point.
- - - Updated - - -
Good point again.�
Mar 12, 2015
ToddRLockwood When the P85+ was introduced, it was substantially less expensive than it was just prior to the P85D announcement. This is because the P85+ originally included numerous options as standard equipment, just as the P85 did. By the time the P85+ made it into the UK market, that standard equipment may have already been phased out.
I don't have any problem with Tesla creating an all out flagship model, but I believe they did make a mistake by eliminating the RWD P85. If you read the comments on this thread posted by P85 owners, you'll notice that many of them would buy a used P85 if their current car got totaled, instead of moving up to a P85D.�
Mar 12, 2015
dirkhh Physics doesn't quite work that way.
Your statement about grip on the front wheels is not correct. In a zero friction environment you are toast with either setup. But if you have some friction available, then the ability to drive the front wheels does indeed increase your ability to steer.�
Mar 12, 2015
dennis That's a good point, and reinforces your original point about Tesla missing out on a revenue opportunity. Let's hope they see that and fill the gap in the product line with a revenue booster.
Let's face it, even really good cars have an adoption curve that sees pent up demand at the beginning of the cycle and a gradual tapering as the model ages and the newness and wow factor wear off. The P85D/85D have provided a revenue boost to the Model S, but others will be needed as well to get to the Model 3 in 2017 or 2018. While much of that will come from the X in 2015/2016, I believe Tesla will need to bring a face-lifted Model S to the market in late 2016/early 2017 when the current design and look are 5 years old. While some will think that this is a distraction from the Model 3, I view it as necessary to keep Tesla revenue growing in the face of the inevitable slippage in the Model 3 schedule.�
Mar 12, 2015
Gizmotoy I'm not a physicist, but I am curious if you have any documentation on this? I only ask because it's directly contrary to my experience and also what they teach you in performance driving schools. The general idea is that at any given time a tire only has so much grip, and you can parse that grip out into braking/acceleration/steering. If you're already at the limit of grip and want to increase any one of those three, you'll need to decrease one or more of the others to maintain traction. Things like weight transfer factor in, but that affects all drive configurations. Things like corner exits rely on this theory heavily: as you decrease your steering input as you exit the corner you gradually increase acceleration to keep your tires at the limit.
The above is, I understood, why AWD cars almost universally understeer at the limit. The exception are advanced (and recent) AWD systems with active center differentials (or two motors, I suppose) and yaw sensors that allow the car to dial in oversteer up to a certain threshold to start rotating and combat this propensity. It's also why high-power FWD cars are at a substantial disadvantage compared to AWD and RWD in performance situations. If your statement were true, it would seem like FWD is actually the best drive configuration.�
Mar 12, 2015
dirkhh Oh boy. It's complicated. It's basically the difference between having traction and having lost traction (and therefore creating slip and a thin layer under the tire that acts like a liquid from a friction point of view).
So as long as you have traction, a front wheel drive (or the front wheels of an AWD) will create both thrust and steering (and better steering than unpowered wheels, btw). And that's why I said the simplistic statement was wrong.
But what you mention here is of course correct, once you get the wheels to slide (either by steering too hard or by accelerating too hard) you lose both, steering and thrust.
This is why a good traction control on an AWD is so critical - and if you have one engine and are using differentials to prevent front wheel slip, the car will most likely lose steering when you apply more and more thrust. But with a separate front motor that has a very responsive traction control, you can prevent the wheels from slipping and therefore maintain BOTH steering and thrust - within the boundaries of the friction that is available.
Edited to add:
One way to think about this is that the "grip" that provides steering are the longitudinal edges of your profile / tire. The grip for thrust is primarily the cross edges. So it is not true that you have one pool of grip for both axes. It's just true that once you slip and create the liquid-like situation, both types of edges lose friction.�
Mar 12, 2015
Gizmotoy All I know is lies! :wink::biggrin: Seems logical, thanks for the lesson!�
Mar 12, 2015
dirkhh Any time. I'm here all week. I work for reputation points :-D�
Mar 12, 2015
richkae Thanks for the education. I appreciate the correction.�
Mar 13, 2015
MartinAustin My $0.02 on the original poster's message... I was sad to see my own car get discontinued less than year after I got it! But after months have passed allowing me to reflect on it... I disagree with your main point. I believe Elon is a big fan of the traction & grip you get from AWD on dry surfaces, wet surfaces, puddles, grass, snow, ice... everything. It's ideal for cars not suited to the track - since cars not suited to the track are driven by 99% of us regular folks, and one of the things we are interested in the most is... safety, especially for the family. AWD is a great help no matter where you are... eventually it rains in Texas, and you may need to get out of the way of someone coming at you! The deletion of the RWD products on October 9th falls firmly in line with this philosophy (while also increasing ASP, as many have observed).
Take the Model X. You will recall, it had RWD and AWD variants, but they decided to drop the RWD version. Range may have been a factor with that, but I believe the family-oriented target demographic for the "X" was also important, and so, safety is paramount. People looking for safety see "AWD" as one more checkbox with a check in it. Look at Subaru's TV commercials these days... they're all about being parents.
What does this leave for the 1% who like to drive the same car on regular roads AND the track? If you are in a P85 right now and think it's great, and will become a classic, well, come on, it's not really perfect, is it? It can't track for very long. It's like an understudy who never gets to go on stage in front of the crowd. If you are lamenting the deletion of the P85/P85+, come on... it has 4 doors and a seven-seat option. Not really made for the track. Maybe that's why we will think of it as a classic... because it is not perfect. I love the acceleration but I hate the traction-slip and fishtailing once the tires are no longer new. (Have not taken it to a track yet)
What I believe Tesla wants to do going forwards is keep road cars and AWD together as much as possible, with few or no RWD variants. This promotes range and safety. Only cost to the customer will force them to provide RWD... the $35,000 announced price of the Model 3 will be a RWD version, but ironically its 200-mile range will be shorter range than the Model 3 AWD variant on the same battery. Even if the equivalent AWD Model 3 can do (say) 220 miles, Tesla will still produce the RWD version because they are hamstrung by price. But they will still use their powers and steer unsuspecting Model 3 buyers towards the AWD variants when possible - because it's a profit center - but also because it is safer in more circumstances, and Elon wants his precious Tesla brand to build a reputation for good roadholding in bad conditions. (and I don't blame him... and IMO this process is already well on its way)
IMO - the next generation of the Roadster will be where Elon next produces an all-out sporting car, whose driver takes responsibility for his safety and the car will respond in a sporting manner when given the right input from the driver. RWD will probably come high on the list of features.
If you listen carefully into the most recent earnings call, Elon talked about variations of the Model 3 platform that, initially, were considered for an early start along with the 200-mile $35,000 variant, but were put on the back burner until that main Model 3 car was safely into production. After this point, "schedule and production volume issues" would be less important, so more "out there" designs might appear on the Model 3 platform. Perhaps the next generation Roadster is one of these lower-volume variants; more expensive to buy of course, with larger motor/invertor combo, beefed-up drivetrain cooling for endurace, open-top w/ roll bar, 2 seats, not much storage space, etc. - very different to the form factor of the Model S.
Further out into the future, when Tesla gets to work on their Generation 4 car, which unless it's a pickup truck I would assume is something that would be in the Honda Civic category and appeal to even more people with a $20,000 price... Tesla will still continue with the same tactic. They'll want to put AWD into it but they'll have to put out an RWD variant at the bottom of the range, for reasons of cost.
BWA HA HA this is my 666th post...�
Mar 13, 2015
brianman Not sure which theory you're disproving, but 100mph @ steady is quite different from up/down track driving.
- - - Updated - - -
Nitpicker's corner: a 110kW battery Model S would suck, but a 110kWh Model S would be a nice improvement.
- - - Updated - - -
I think you're overthinking it. As long as they have buyers "red-lining" their production capacity they could make every vehicle off the line a P85D and make all the options standard (with base price increase).
Instead they've continued (/renewed?) the practice of setting nearer delivery times for higher priced flavors. At the limit, they would be deliverying only P85Ds -- so clearly demand for P85Ds is not saturating the current production capacity. So then it slides to "Should we deliver S85D next or P85 next?" My suspicion is that the profitability of the S85D is higher -- and they get Model X telemetry data from S85D.
So (my turn to overthink it)...
Let's imagine the profitability per flavor is:
P85D > S85D > P85 > S85 > S60 > S40
They killed the S40 because the cost wasn't worth the benefits for a relatively small customer segment.
Likely they let go of the P85 segment because either P85D or S85D "covered" most of those customers, and the profitability loss relative to a delivered S85D and the factory overhead couldn't support its continued existence.�
Mar 13, 2015
Evbwcaer Maybe Tesla will offer an option to turn the front motor off for the RWD fans. Better yet, a slider allowing you to go pure RWD, pure FWD, max range, or whatever proportion you want of the two.�
Mar 13, 2015
AWDtsla RWD is quaint. I could go on for a long time why this is so, and the arguments won't be taken properly. I guarantee you it's quaint. If you really want more RWD feel, it's near trivial for Tesla to have a software update that sends more (or ALL) torque to the rear wheels. But this would just be silly.�
Mar 14, 2015
tomas I know this is rendered inaccurate by price increases etc. along the way... I did my occasional dive into the design studio with sticker by my side to compare my purchase price/features on 2012 P85 vs. today's equivalent.
My 2012 P85 as equipped with equivalent of today's premium interior, pano roof, sound studio, active air, 21" wheels, tech package: $99,600
Equivalent 85D (minus P, plus Dual and driver assist features and next gen seats): $110,820 net increase $11,220
Equivalent P95D (plus Dual and driver assist features and next gen seats): $128,920 net increase $29,320
That's 11% and 30% more money, respectively.
Reaffirms happiness with P85. I realize the later one bought their P85, the more this gap closes... but I'm now feeling I got a decent deal... including the incalculable value of driving the car 2+ years.�
Mar 14, 2015
SilverSpark Just priced a new P85D optioned like my May 2014 P85+ and got a price difference of $5,200; a lot of $$ for sure, but low in terms of % of total cost. While I love the driving characteristics of RWD, I've also owned and enjoyed AWD cars, and would have no issues replacing my + with a D. True, the frunk is way smaller, but I seldom even open the frunk.
The main reason I opted for the + was its surprisingly well executed combination of ride and handling, which I felt was by far the best Tesla offered at the time (ordered March 2014), and which still impresses me after almost 1 year of driving. (I feel this is an underrated virtue of the car.) So for me, the missing link in Tesla's model lineup remains pretty much the same as it's always been: the lack of a separate option for a performance/premium suspension setup. BMW has offered this for years, and I believe other premium manufacturers do as well. Why not Tesla?�
Không có nhận xét nào:
Đăng nhận xét