Dec 10, 2014
skilly BMW Calls It "The Thing�: It Has 700 hp and Will Eat M5s for Breakfast – News – Car and Driver | Car and Driver Blog�
Dec 10, 2014
ecarfan From the article: "but it�s so far off the books that it�s not even considered to be an official prototype yet."
And by the way, it's a hybrid, it's not an EV. So it requires gas and oil, it has no frunk, it has a center transmission tunnel, a small rear trunk, it requires all the usual maintenance, and it will be very expensive to build because it is extremely complicated with thousands more parts than the Model S.
Really BMW, this is the best you can do? And it's years away from going on sale, if it ever does?�
Dec 10, 2014
qwk A Tesla killer with only 9 more HP? Plus it has a gasoline engine? What a joke.�
Dec 10, 2014
gg_got_a_tesla 
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Dec 10, 2014
purplewalt Silly, silly silly.
Back to the drawing board BMW.
Bring it to the drag strip or the track vs a P85D, both of them with fully charged batteries and an empty fuel tank, and let the games begin.�
Dec 10, 2014
Amped-Up "...but by our extremely unofficial estimates, the sprint to 60 mph feels like it�s executed in the low-four-second range." Ummm- that's what my P85 does. Now.�
Dec 10, 2014
AWDtsla BMW, better cars through marketing.�
Dec 10, 2014
dsm363 Disappointing. BMW still makes amazing cars but this doesn't seem like a genuine effort on their part. Their engineers could do better if management let them.�
Dec 10, 2014
William13 Expensive Volt that isn't even as good looking as a Volt.
Not a Tesla killer. The D has caused the "Thing" to be still born and BMW doesn't even know it yet!�
Dec 10, 2014
AmpedUP It can't be a "Tesla Killer" if it has an engine.�
Dec 10, 2014
AWDtsla I've been getting really pissed off with how bad BMW is with software. They just don't get it. They overengineered the lead acid battery charging on several generations of cars to claim some sort of immeasurable efficiency gain, for which you need to pay a guy $400 to reprogram your ECU if you replace the battery. Seriously, that's just goddamn terrible. That was just the last straw, there's many other reasons they just don't get it.�
Dec 10, 2014
bluenation not even one of the greatest ICE makers with experience working with tesla can come close to their junior partner.
what a joke.�
Dec 10, 2014
skilly you would think that they could do better given that they have been talking...
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/11/24/us-tesla-motors-germany-idUSKCN0J80NC20141124�
Dec 10, 2014
wk057 Actually, isn't the P85D low 3's? Just saying...�
Dec 10, 2014
Dutchie At least they are trying.. It means something is happening at a traditional automaker.�
Dec 10, 2014
Krugerrand Depends on one's definition of try.�
Dec 10, 2014
ecarfan Creating a hybrid is not "trying" to build an EV. It's a hybrid, of which there are many available to buy from multiple manufacturers right now. This BMW "thing" is not even a prototype of a car BMW has committed to mass produce, it's a one-off vehicle that may never make it into production.
Get serious BMW. Go big, or go home.�
Dec 10, 2014
Zextraterrestrial i drive...
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Dec 10, 2014
David99 Just shows how threatened BMW feels by the P85D. BMW, who's marketing is focused on performance, has been beaten by the dual drive Model S. Show this pre-prototype vehicle and using the term 'Tesla killer' is just a desperate attempt to keep customers loyal to BMW and hopefully not jump to the Tesla.�
Dec 10, 2014
TEG �
Dec 11, 2014
Thud Just another plug-in hybrid. Imagine what it could do if it didn't have to haul around an entire second drivetrain while it was running on pure electricity.�
Dec 11, 2014
bonnie And BMW had the audacity complain that Tesla was just using them for publicity. Seems like they're throwing Tesla's name about for the headlines when they've got .... nothing.�
Dec 11, 2014
jkliu47 Maybe 80 miles range? :tongue:
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+1!�
Dec 11, 2014
Johan It's a gas car.
Once again a premium German brand proves that Tesla is the one to beat now, the new standard.�
Dec 11, 2014
Kalud Exactly!
That BMW would be quite nice without its gas engine. Imagine it with an free frunk and 200mi+ range. Oh, also, without its transmission tunnel and drive shaft that use so much room in the cabin. But where would they place the idrive controller... Oh wait, maybe add a 17 inches display and remove all the knobs...�
Dec 11, 2014
point1 It might be able to lap the Ring though... Until a Tesla can without going into limp mode I wouldnt be too disrespectful.�
Dec 11, 2014
ecarfan Being able to lap the Ring at maximum possible speeds is a meaningless capability for 99.999% of car buyers, and if the S could do that it would not increase Tesla's sales one bit because Tesla will be production constrained for years.�
Dec 11, 2014
FredTMC will be nice to hear how hard you can drive P85D before it limits power. My understanding is TM improved the Ds cooling vs old P85�
Dec 11, 2014
Saghost If our guess about a motor rotor heating lookup table is right, the D should have close to twice the power before limiting kicks in, and recover almost twice as fast. I'm waiting curiously to see what actual P85D track results are like.
Walter�
Dec 11, 2014
point1
Well you could argue that straight line performance better than 0-100 km/h in less than 6 seconds is pretty meaningless, but it's still desirable by some.�
Dec 11, 2014
ckessel I use that straight line performance daily, multiple times a day.
I'd never, ever use a car the way you'd drive the Ring.�
Dec 11, 2014
Saghost Looks to me like an M series Volt. Not really a match for the D, though spinning all four wheels on electricity sounds pretty good.
At a reasonable price, potentially a compelling option in places where you need longer trips and there are no suitable Superchargers.
(And just a concept so far.)
Walter�
Dec 11, 2014
ckessel Indeed. Maybe not for the things being worked on right now, but there will come a time fairly soon where any ICE performance car in development will either be abandoned or arrive on the market and be seriously outclassed by it's EV competition. ICE performance just can't compare at that same price point.
Other ICE cars, non-performance, will eventually be in that situation as well, but it'll be a much longer timeframe. Performance ICE cars are a smaller, expensive niche and that niche is going to be wiped out by EVs quite soon.�
Dec 11, 2014
Zextraterrestrial over 6 would be 'meaningless'.. under 4 seconds is pretty good. I do <5s 0-60 pretty much every time I need to get up to 60mph. it leaves a good 'safety spacing' between you and other cars, not meaningless�
Dec 11, 2014
point1 Ok then it's settled then if you dont use a car that way it's not needed or wanted by the rest of the world.�
Dec 11, 2014
Beckler I really must wonder if BMW (& others) are avoiding the high-performance Tesla-type EV because they know it will make the rest of their gasoline clunker lineup look silly.�
Dec 11, 2014
ckessel I have no idea what your point is. The rest of the world regularly does laps at the Ring? The rest of the world doesn't accelerate from a stop?�
Dec 11, 2014
point1 No but people who does want a performance car might do laps there or at other tracks. My point being its kind of weird that all people use as a comparison in this thread is 0-60 time. Not lap-times, top speed, suspension etc.
If we are to discuss performance there is a lot more to it than 0-60 that is relevant.
Everyone accelerates from a stop, I've never been involved in an accident caused by being in a car with a bad straight line performance, which a lot of people here to think is a vital safety feature. I'd say it's as much of a safety feature that the car doesn't go in to limp mode when pushed hard...�
Dec 11, 2014
Zextraterrestrial P85 is an M3 killer in a tight track format like autocross
probably would slaughter an M5
limp mode..still has ~ 200hp. not exactly unsafe.
the straight line performance of the S has saved me from needing to do a hard swerve for quite a few close calls, just drop the pedal and get out of the way�
Dec 11, 2014
Jaff Well said...no autobahn's anywhere else, so track performance / autobahn performance is irrelevant...
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ecarfan mentioned those folks...they are the .001%...
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Dec 11, 2014
ckessel We are here to discuss performance consumer cars. Not race cars. If we were here to discuss race cars, it'd be something like a Formula 1 forum.
Consequently, the natural discussion and comparison points would be those items most consumers in the Tesla/BMW/Audi niche would use, such as straight line performance and cornering on typical consumer driven roads.
Consumers don't drive the Ring. They do accelerate frequently from low speeds.
Consumers don't take track corners at 140mph. They do take corners on rural highways.
If BMW makes a car that's superior on the Ring, that's a point in their favor for those folks for whom driving the Ring is a typical usage, which is a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny part of the market.�
Dec 11, 2014
point1 Probably not for BMW. And Europeans. And Americans who drive on track days.�
Dec 11, 2014
point1 Well you don't have to go to the ring, any track or alpine road will work. Never said we were talking about race cars. Is the BMW a race car because it can lap a track?�
Dec 11, 2014
Jaff Agreed...the .001%...
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Dec 11, 2014
ckessel I'm still not grasping your point. Are you contending running under track conditions is a normal and regular case for luxury performance car consumers? And that driving alpine road is like driving a track? I certainly have some nicely winding mountain roads in my area, but I don't think even at my most aggressive I'd ever remotely come close to driving them like one would drive on a track.
If those things are true, then it'd be criteria that should be weighted heavily. If that's not true, then it's a largely irrelevant measure.
Is that your point, that you're saying driving under track conditions and alpine roads are frequent luxury performance car consumer activities?
Perhaps you should list what you consider important criteria in a performance luxury consumer car. Mine would be acceleration and handling in urban areas and nearby rural areas. I suspect I'm fairly typical of most such consumers based on those I've met, but I'm open to facts that would prove otherwise.�
Dec 11, 2014
wallet.dat Well, playing Devil's advocate here, but the standard M5 can already decisively beat a P85+ around a track... using an archaic ICE, a CoG height rivaling that of a UPS truck, with a drag coefficient to match (ok, I'm exaggerating here, but you get the idea�
Dec 11, 2014
point1 No my point is that the Tesla Model S can't lap a track, the BMW can, and unless Tesla make a Model S capable of driving on a track without going into limp mode after 3 minutes it's ridiculous to mock BMW, Audi etc in terms of performance. It only makes you look like a fanboy if you do.
There are several things Tesla does right. Overall performance is something they can improve, as well as the interior which is not comparable to other luxury sedans, however the new seats is a step in the right direction.�
Dec 11, 2014
dsm363 I'll give you one point for that but that's still a small fraction of the car buying public. There is no one perfect car for everyone. It's entirely possible a Tesla won't meet their needs for many years and that's fine. That's why it's good there are so many cars to choose from. BMW makes great cars and will likely beat Tesla on the pure track performance for a few years.�
Dec 11, 2014
matbl Old news...
BMW Power eDrive: The Future of Plug in Hybrid Drive�
Dec 11, 2014
ecarfan BMW is welcome to the 0.001% of all high end car purchasers who drive their expensive luxury vehicles on race tracks or in autoX. The rest of buyers don't care if they can lap the Ring at max speed or not. Many of them are impressed that their Tesla can reach freeway merging speed faster than almost anything else on the road, at any price, and do it in quiet comfort.�
Dec 11, 2014
Krugerrand
Okay. In reverse now: There are several things BMW does right. Interior is as luxurious as it gets (too bad most people don't live in their cars and therefore like to save that kind of luxury for their living quarters, or that many people really do like a minimalist approach), however they could improve overall fuel economy, significantly reduce maintenance costs by getting rid of thousands of parts, actually build a real EV and not just talk about it...�
Dec 11, 2014
wallet.dat 0-60 is about as relevant as Nurbergring lap times. They're more useful to the manufacturer as an advertising tool than to the average buyer.�
Dec 11, 2014
dsm363 0-60 time equals fun for a lot of people. Sure we don't need anything really more than 6-8 seconds there but people want it. It's certainly more applicable to most Americans at least than N�rburgring lap time.�
Dec 11, 2014
bonnie I disagree. Not only do I enjoy the acceleration of my Roadster after 3 years of driving, I've sold many EVs to people sitting in the passenger seat who want that same feeling in their daily driver. It's not just an advertising tool - it's advertising and it quickly becomes a 'must have', once experienced.
I enter into evidence the countless sets of rear tires I've purchased. -sigh- But there is this one great entrance ramp near here with a double S curve, so it slams you one way and then the other and, well ... yeah. The acceleration is great.�
Dec 11, 2014
Jaff Not sure why you think this...might be this way where you reside, but certainly not here in NA...I enjoy my 0-60 advantage every time "a gasser" needs to be dispatched...I'll beat you to the next stoplight / stop sign / on ramp (with extremely few exceptions) every time...and there is not one thing that 99.99% of the gassers can do about it...:biggrin:
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Dec 11, 2014
ecarfan Disagree. Everyone can use and enjoy experiencing rapid acceleration on the roads they drive on every day. Very few owners make the effort to take their Model S onto a racetrack to experience driving it at well over street legal speeds for extended periods.
That is why 0-60 times mean something to the typical buyer, and they don't care about whether or not a Model S can do a lap on the Ring flat out (and most people have no idea what we are referring to when we use the word "Ring" in this context).�
Dec 11, 2014
wallet.dat Probably a combination of where I reside (big city) and the way I drive (conservatively). I've never had any sort of problem merging into traffic, changing lanes, or whatever other maneuver auto-manufacturers try to sell me on their 0-60 times for... and I've had cars that would struggle to do 12 seconds 0-60. If I want to go fast, I take my fast car to a track.�
Dec 11, 2014
yobigd20 still has an ICE engine and needs gas. twice the parts, twice the cost, and twice the problems.�
Dec 11, 2014
wallet.dat Ok, I'll grant you that. But then too a cars slalom speed would also be important off-track in daily driving situations, especially for curves like the ones Bonnie mentioned. If a car can carry more entry speed through a curve, there's less need to be able to accelerate back up to speed on the exit. So sure, the exact 'Ring lap time that a professional driver can extract from a particular car might not be 1:1 relevant to the average driver, it does strongly imply how well that car might handle everyday roads and the curves that go along with them, depending on where you live of course�
Dec 11, 2014
rocketdallas The good news is BMW may be developing an alternative choice to the P85D for persons who might be inclined to BMW. The bad news is because of the need for packaging electric and ICE engine components and batteries, it looks like the 5 series GT. :wink:�
Dec 11, 2014
qwk Tesla dosn't have the best interiors, but neither does BMW. To me BMW's interiors are one step above GM's(a small step at that). I really don't know where you guys see any quality and luxury with BMW's cars.�
Dec 11, 2014
AndreyATC By the time someone comes up with P85D killer, Tesla might have it's own P85D killer
P110D or whatever
Stronger battery and inverter is probably the only need�
Dec 11, 2014
republic All a P120D (I like the number better) needs is two of the P85D rear motors. BAM, 940 horsepower. That could smoke a GT-R.�
Dec 11, 2014
yobigd20 BMW is considered luxury?? Wow that's news to me. Every BMW I've been in wasn't anything special and definitely nothing near a MS and everyone I personally know that owns one or had owned one has said their's was a POS and they'll never buy another one again.�
Dec 11, 2014
ecarfan We apparently live in a different universe. In my world BMW is certainly a luxury vehicle and there are many loyal owners, including my engineer/attorney neighbor who just bought his second one.�
Dec 12, 2014
NigelM Mod note: a couple of posts went to random-chitchat�
Dec 12, 2014
3s-a-charm It really depends on what BMWs you are in... Just like if you show someone your "base" Tesla with textile seats and say it's a luxury vehicle you might get looked at funny by your friends - especially when you tell them you spent $75k on it.
I've owned BMWs for the past 20+ years and have been very loyal to the brand (until now). There is no denying that the upper-end cars (especially the 6-series Gran Coupe) have a way nicer interior compared to the Tesla Model S but fortunately the Model S has enough compelling features and a luxurious enough interior to sway me from the brand I've loved all of my car-loving life. This is a huge statement for me given I never thought I'd own anything else. Tesla's aren't perfect but I believe the P85D will be a better overall car than any BMW/Merc/Audi and I'm putting my money where my mouth is.
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Agreed... although they do have a "real EV" now with the i3 (unless you don't count it because it's ugly LOL).
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Sorry, going to disagree with you on this one. 0-60 offers 50% of the "fun" in a driving experience and an underpowered vehicle certainly isn't any fun to drive in most cases. Lightweight and balanced cars that can corner well (Porsche, old BMW M cars, etc) offer another element of fun which is the driving dynamics and is "better" defined by lap times. This is why Porsche has always had the reputation as the best drivers cars - they are lightweight, balanced, and powerful. A Mustang will out-muscle a Porsche - doesn't mean it's a better car for the average driver (unless you prefer the styling?).
To make my point relevant to the BMW vs Tesla debate here... The Tesla doesn't "shine" as a track car (barely useable really) because it shines in other arenas like commuter/family/sedan. The M5 is probably the better overall sedan because it can do both. If Tesla made a "Roadster 2.0" as a dedicated electric track car, it could probably compete with Porsche if it wanted to.
Frankly, I wished that BMW and Tesla would collaborate - take some of the best of BMW (interiors, carbon fiber) and combine with the best of Tesla (platform, tech, battery) and make a proper car.�
Dec 12, 2014
Beckler I tend to agree. I think people forget that the high-end euro brands are also "image" cars - though no owner would ever admit it.�
Dec 12, 2014
Saghost I'm not buying that. I think a lot of Model Ss are bought as image cars, too - is just a slightly different image. This is the car to buy to say "I've arrived, and I care about the environment/future." I suspect most forum members are buying the car for other (better?) reasons, but they aren't the only ones bugging the car by any means.Walter�
Dec 12, 2014
Krugerrand Level of ugliness doesn't hit the list as far as I'm concerned for what qualifies as a 'real EV'. However, driving distance on battery power does. The ability to have typical power and performance does. Basically that the EV doesn't have usability compromises.
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Keep wishing. Just because there's been a media fiasco about BMW and Tesla partnering, doesn't mean it won't happen. There was just as much speculation, angst, doubt etc... about Panasonic partnering with Tesla in the Gigafactory and that turned out just fine. Heck there was a Gigafactory media fiasco about whether it would even get off the ground because it took a bit longer than expected for Tesla to finalize a state deal. Etc., etc., etc... So, don't believe what's been reported from BMW spokespeople until nothing has happened down the road the bit.�
Dec 12, 2014
bonnie ^^ This. Lots of posturing going on.�
Dec 12, 2014
gg_got_a_tesla I used to lust after BMW's offerings "just because" - it was the "coolest" brand in my eyes before Tesla came on the scene. But, from a reliability and quality of ownership point-of-view, the Z3, 325i and now Mini (if you count them under the BMW umbrella) that we've owned left a lot to be desired. Tesla has exceedingly done well on all those fronts.�
Dec 12, 2014
Krugerrand Yes, that's the perfect word. Posturing. Everyone wants to save face, look good, think it was their idea, and seem to get the better end of the deal. And every media outlet wants to be the center of the universe, so will make crap up, and distort and take comments out of context just to get attention. There are too many examples of this happening with Tesla that I can't believe people still keep falling for it.�
Dec 13, 2014
tezco Actually, I don't see that the article reports that BMW calls it a Tesla killer. That's Car and Driver talking, and you know how fixated on BMW they are.�
Dec 15, 2014
tdelta1000 Bring it!!!! Elon has something in the works.�
Dec 15, 2014
Canuck " The idea is that it would run as a pure EV for at least two-thirds of the time."
No thanks.�
Dec 15, 2014
MsElectric That's now Tesla killer. It's a Chevrolet Volt killer, if anything. Both are essentially hybrids.�
Dec 18, 2014
grahamsimmonds I have read this thread with interest. The conclusion that I have come to is that most of us are never going to compromise with our cars again. And any hybrid, including the BMW "thing", is a compromise, no matter how fast it goes or the fact that it is made by BMW.
My P85D will be the fastest car I have ever owned. Period. But that is not enough. Plenty of cars go fast. The real reason I am so excited about it is that I see that Tesla has made a revolutionary electric car that has no equal. No other car manufacturer has dared to make anything like it so it is absolutely unique. And you know what? that makes us as Tesla owners unique because we need something more than yet another ICE or hybrid car.
The reason BMW/Audi/Chevrolet come out with these hybrids is that they are scared of us and we are growing in numbers. They naively think we can duped into thinking that these cars are a worthy alternative to the Model S and that we will come back to them. How wrong they are!
All of the major car manufacturers need to grow some balls and produce an all electric car that could challenge the Tesla Model S, X and 3. Until then they are irrelevant.�
Dec 18, 2014
Jaff Well said Graham & welcome to the club!�
Dec 18, 2014
skilly I think its called the P85D...or something like that.�
Dec 20, 2014
artsci BMWs are common currency around my way, a dime dozen. I see more of them then Fords or Chevys every day. In my book they've greatly devalued the brand. Sad.�
Dec 21, 2014
EarlyAdopter I like how you don't hear Tesla touting an M5 killer.
They simply went and built one.�
Dec 21, 2014
Red Sage Won't it be fun if Tesla Motors moves the goalpost again in two years? Model S P135D, 0-60 MPH in 2.2 seconds, 1/4 mile in 10.2 seconds at 135 MPH, top speed 200 MPH, Nordschleife in 6:45...�
Dec 21, 2014
Jaff I'm not sure the Model S will reach those numbers...those are figs in the neighbourhood that I would expect to see for the next Roadster...�
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