Oct 9, 2011
fairlycool Hey guys,
I have a question about the charging socket that Tesla is using in the Model S. I've seen that its smaller that the regular charging points (the ubiquitous J1772) that we find around the Bay Area. Will the Model S charge from these stations with J1772 sockets? or does it need a new completely different type of charging station?
The reason I ask is because I live in an apartment and plan on charging my Model S at public charging points.
Thanks!�
Oct 9, 2011
Lloyd We were told that J1772 adapters would be available at release.�
Oct 9, 2011
Doug_G I heard the J1772 adapter will be a module, not a cable, and it will lock into the car when inserted. So if someone pulls the J1772 cable they can't take the adapter with them.�
Oct 9, 2011
Lloyd I believe that Tesla should have a place in the side of the trunk next to the charge port where all of the "adapters" can be permanently located. Much better than a bag of adapters that bounces about the car or trunk (boot for you britts) while driving!�
Oct 10, 2011
NigelM Tesla are saying on the website that the adapters are included:
Nice!�
Oct 10, 2011
AnOutsider So both ends of the cable need adapters or would the j1772 adapter be on the end opposite the end that plugs into the vehicle? I'm guessing the wall outlet plugs are adapters too? Just trying to picture this, and plan my garage out�
Oct 10, 2011
Eberhard Does someone knows, the charger being air- or liquid cooled?�
Oct 10, 2011
TEG My guess is that the J1772 adapter and home/campground adapters are very different.
J1772 adapter - just a small stub that plugs into the S charge port, and then the J1772 plug goes into the other side just basically sticking out the side of the car a little bit. No extra cable.
For home use up to 9.6kW ([email�protected]) one would use the UMC2, which I gather will be included with every Model S, and use an adapter on the end of the plug end right before it goes into the wall (e.g.: dryer outlet, stove outlet, NEMA14-50, etc.)
If you needed faster home charging then an HPC2 could be installed permanently which (I think) would just have a new Tesla plug on the car end and could do up to 19.2kW charging ([email�protected]) assuming you ordered the S with the dual charger option, and have a 100A circuit breaker available.�
Oct 10, 2011
doug That's a good question. The onboard charger is located under the rear seats. How much power do you expect gets sunk as heat? (What's the anticipated efficiency?) Given the location, it not obvious that there is a path for proper air cooling. Is it not enough to be thermally anchored to that large aluminum chassis? I suppose it would be possible to add the charger on the motor/inverter cooling loop, but I haven't heard anyone say anything that would indicate that was the plan.�
Oct 10, 2011
Lloyd I wonder if we will be able to convert the existing HPC's to HPC2's and at least get the 70A that they are able.�
Oct 10, 2011
VolkerP Tesla should investigate this, along with retro-fitting the Roadster with the new charge port. That would enable ALL Tesla cars on the road to use either existing or to-be-rolled-out charging infrastructure.�
Oct 10, 2011
doug Certainly should be possible, though the Model S connector includes the Proximity signal which the Roadster omits.�
Oct 12, 2011
W.Petefish But that can be added through Tom's board.�
Oct 12, 2011
jaanton I sure hope Tesla will start selling parts like a regular car company. The new Tesla connector looks small enough that maybe some old avcon cars could be adapted to use the Tesla inlet. Roadster conversion to the new inlet seems simpler then it would be to J1772. That way the Roadster & Model S owners can have one easy home charger. The more cars which can use the new stuff the better.�
Oct 12, 2011
doug Sure. I didn't mean to suggest it would be a hurdle. More likely than not, it would just be ignored.�
Oct 12, 2011
Kipernicus Is there still some federal and/or state tax incentive to installing home chargers?
What if I just want an extra 240v 40A outlet in the garage to use the UMC2? Would the incentive apply?
Thanks�
Oct 12, 2011
TEG Might want to ask a Tesla rep that question and see what they say. I don't know the current situation.�
Oct 12, 2011
WhiteKnight I don't think there is Federal (maybe there is) but some states definitely offer incentives AND I think some power companies offer incentives too since you'll be a better customer.�
Oct 12, 2011
tnawara
I'm sensing heated rear seats in our future...�
Oct 12, 2011
PopSmith On Tesla's website under "Go Electric" -> "Incentives" (linky) it says:
�
Oct 13, 2011
Jaff +1 for sure...I'd rather have my Roadster and its chargers retro fitted with a J1772 rather than using another cable adapter!
�
Oct 13, 2011
jaanton The EVSE credit is affected (negatively) by AMT (At least it was for 2010). If you're subject to AMT or close you should consider that. Of course if you need an EVSE then you're going to get one, but it's not a simple tax credit. The EV purchase credit is not subject to AMT.�
Oct 16, 2011
neroden A question is what the EVSE credit will be for 2012; it looks like it won't be clear what to buy in terms of charging station until then.
At the moment thanks to excessive tax-preferred income I'm having enough trouble generating enough income to use the full EV purchase credit (that's the George W. Bush tax cuts for you), so I'd rather get the charging station and the EV in different years... but I really doubt that will be possible due to lack of information from Tesla.�
Oct 18, 2011
vfx Yeah I would like to wait to jump to the new Tesla connector to be mounted in my Roadster as opposed to any J connector.
Though those Avcons are huge (especially with their cam-style locking swing), so you can probably fit any new connector in their plug-hole.�
Oct 18, 2011
Andrew Wolfe The Leaf charger is 85% efficient according to multiple tests (including Consumer Reports). I would expect the Tesla charger to be in a similar range - between 85 and 90% efficient. I think that this includes heat loss in the batteries during charging and any cable losses.
This means that a 10KW charger would put out 1000-1500W of heat. Think blow dryer.�
Oct 18, 2011
Tommy It looks like you're attributing all of the loss to the charger. The 1000-1500W of loss is across ALL components in the charging circuit not just the charger. The closest device I can think of that would have similar loss to the charger is a solar inverter; these typically have 94-97% efficiency. Not nearly the heat output of a blow dryer.�
Oct 22, 2011
TEG Well, I guess this is an example of HPC2:
(credit to VFX for the picture.)�
Oct 22, 2011
widodh Where did VFX find that one? Sneaked in somewhere?�
Oct 22, 2011
dsm363 Wow. That looks sharp. Looks like something out of Star Wars.�
Oct 22, 2011
dpeilow VFX posted this after the LA ROTEC party:
View attachment 3221
Any guess as to how tall it is?�
Oct 22, 2011
cinergi Yes, that's just like the one I mentioned I'd seen earlier.
From what I could tell, the unit is approximately as tall as the current HPC, but 1/3rd the width.�
Oct 22, 2011
gg_got_a_tesla Looks great and sleek! (just as the battery engineer at the factory promised)
Not a long cable run though so, got to have it installed at the back of a garage or back the car in.�
Oct 22, 2011
Larry Chanin Hi,
Please forgive a basic question. :redface:
For overnight charging at home, why go to the expense of buying and installing this charger? Why not install a NEMA 14-50 outlet? Won't the Model S's onboard charger be adequate for overnight charging at 240 volts at a reasonable amperage?
Thanks.
Larry�
Oct 22, 2011
Mycroft The HPC would allow faster charging. For example, if you get home from work and you have to leave a few hours later for some event, then you'd be able to charge up enough to attend. Definitely something that can wait 'til the car is paid for and to see if there's really a need for it.
You could also make it available for fellow travelers. :biggrin:�
Oct 22, 2011
dsm363 The main advantage is that if you have fellow Tesla owners visiting, you can get them charged up and on their way quicker. This also applies to your own car as mentioned above.
It also looks slicker and is an all in one unit if that matters that can be permanently installed. You're right though in that you can get by just fine with a NEMA 14-50 outlet. That's what I have.�
Oct 22, 2011
gg_got_a_tesla Right; charging from a 240V outlet to "top up" on a nightly basis would be good enough without this HPC. TEG's classification of the options from a different thread: What charge port connector?�
Oct 22, 2011
TEG I think he mentioned seeing it at the Tesla LA store during an "after party" after seeing the LA opening of "Revenge of the Electric Car."
I guess they had the White Model S Beta on display there too.�
Oct 22, 2011
dsm363 Tesla needs to get the HPC 2.0 and the DC fast charger out before the end of the year to take advantage of the 30% federal tax credit. I don't think that will happen of course though.�
Oct 22, 2011
W.Petefish I saw the UMC2 in Houston today. It was plugged in and charging the Model S Sig that is in the galleria.�
Oct 22, 2011
dsm363 Any chance they'll have them for sale before the end of the year (even though the car won't come out until mid 2012)?�
Oct 22, 2011
SByer I don't know about the 14-50, but the 10-30 I went with isn't so good with the insertion/removal rating (I think the 14-50 is bit better, but...), so I leave the 10-30 pigtail connected to that socket and disconnect the RFMC at the CA connector (which is definitely better at insertion count).
I was lucky, the garage backs to the laundry room, and we have a gas dryer, so the 10-30 was only about $30 in parts and an hour of labor. I've never hit a situation where 240v/30a wasn't good enough, but every situation is different.�
Oct 22, 2011
Tommy As I understand the HPC and HPC2, they are not chargers per say, but "smart switches" AKA: EVSE (Electric Vehicle Service Equipment). The charger is built into the car. In the Model S case. the car comes standard with one 10K charger with the optional second (or possible 3rd) charger at additional cost. The result is if your fellow Tesla owner isn't driving a roadster and only has the standard optioned Model S with one charger their charge times are going to be the same as the 14-50 outlet. Get the second in car charger installed and the HPC2 can be put to good use. At least that's how I understand it.�
Oct 22, 2011
cinergi That's what I took away from the Beta event, too.
BTW, a 14-50 is at most 9.6kW which means ~9 hours to charge a depleted 300-mile pack. (For me I have 208V so it's 8.3kW or ~10 hours) (And yes, I realize that's 0-100% which is rare and I also haven't taken charge efficiency or power-tapering at the end into account; for comparison using the same math, the Roadster will charge 0-245 in ~5.5 hours) The HPC2 is somewhat attractive at this point because that cuts those numbers in half.�
Oct 22, 2011
Larry Chanin Thanks guys,
To put this in perspective, if I were discussing the Roadster charging options the best we could do would be about 4 hours with the High Power Wall Connector and 6 hours with the Universal Mobile Connector into a NEMA 14-50 outlet. This is just a 2 hour difference. Do we expect the 240 volt charging options for the Model S to be much different from that when charging a 300 mile battery pack?
Here's an excerpt from the features section of the Tesla website.
This suggests two things to me.
1)The Models S comes with adapters and cabling to plug into the most common 240 volt outlet. (I'm not sure whether Tesla is referring to a NEMA 14-50 outlet, or a J1772 outlet, but it suggests that the new Universal Mobile Connector would be included with the Model S.)
2) At 62 miles range per hour the best charge time to be expected for a 300 mile battery pack would be about 4.8 hours.
I'm not sure whether the 62 miles range per hour requires that you order the optional second on-board charger. If so, does that mean that with just the standard on-board charger and the new Universal Mobile Connector the best we can to is 9.6 hours to fully charge a 300 mile battery pack? Does the size of the on-board charger limit the charging time for the new Model S High Power Wall Connector to 9.6 hours?
Thanks.
Larry
P.S. I didn't read Tommy or cinergi's responses before I posted my questions above. Is that the consenus of opinion that with just a standard on-board 10 kW charger that the charging time for a Model S would be the same with the new Universal Mobile Connector or a NEMA 14-50 outlet?�
Oct 23, 2011
TEG From what I know:
Yes, you would likely need the 2nd charger option to do 62MPH charging ( < 5 hours to fill 300 mile pack )
Yes, I would think that a Model S with only the base (single) charger could only do ~30MPH charging and would take close to 10 hours for a full recharge even if you had the HPC2. Basically if you don't order the 2nd charger option in your Model S, I would think you could get by with the included UMC2, and not bother with the HPC2 since it wouldn't likely help much.�
Oct 23, 2011
Larry Chanin Thanks for the response.
Is the on-board charger bypassed during DC fast charging? In other words, we don't need to upgrade to a 20kW on-board charger to take full advantage of DC fast charging?
Thanks.
Larry�
Oct 23, 2011
Lloyd Yes that is correct. If you wanted no ac charging capability at all you could save 30 lbs and have no onboard charger. (though not an option at this time)�
Nov 2, 2011
NigelM I think this is new:
Elon Musk on Tesla's Unique Charging System
�
Nov 2, 2011
PopSmith Cool video, I haven't seen that one before. :smile:
Both Elon and the cameraman mention it's a combo plug (not the HPC) and. at 0:34, Elon says it's capable of "up to 90 kW". The SAE came out with a "combo" plug as well but it's massive.�
Nov 2, 2011
dadaleus I wonder where that "first 90kw super charger installed by the end of this year" will be. I would suggest Grapevine/Lebec, CA between north and south CA before the I5 and 99 split. That's a good pit stop (all the fast food places, Starbucks, etc...) and is a gateway to both central CA (Yosemite, Sequoia, Fresno) and the Bay Area to/from SoCal.�
Nov 2, 2011
Larry Chanin Hi,
Elon corrects the reporter and says that technically the device is a connector, not a charger, and it is capable of up to 20 kW (That is, it is the new High Power Connector). He says the combo adapter part of the HPC is capable of 90 kW and it is also on the yet to be revealed Supercharger.
Larry�
Nov 2, 2011
Larry Chanin Hi,
Bucking Trends, Tesla Goes It Alone on Plug Design
Larry�
Nov 2, 2011
dadaleus Larry, makes sense. Too bad for people going to interior CA, but good for the SoCal to SF Bay Area trip. (hmm... Elon lives in LA and Tesla is in the Bay Area... I suspect that charger will get some use well before the S public release.)�
Nov 2, 2011
TEG Well it seems that Jim got a bit confused by the comment that the plug can {also} provide the "supercharge". He then referred to the HPC2 as the "supercharger". Oh well, no biggie - people will be clear once we see the public "Superchargers" get installed. I wonder if the first time we see one will be when they unveil it at Harris ranch?
I bet the supercharger has an even fatter cable going to the plug end.�
Nov 2, 2011
Larry Chanin Hi,
I think that he cleared things up in the article linked in my previous posting.
Larry�
Nov 3, 2011
Lloyd I believe they said the first one would be at Harris ranch on I-5�
Nov 3, 2011
Larry Chanin Hi Lloyd,
Yes, refer to posting #52.
Larry�
Nov 3, 2011
VolkerP Sure does.
The HPC 2.0 delivers 20kW at 240V AC max. Tesla stated that they went to the physical limits to make that cable as light as possible. That means, it is not capable of 25kW or 30kW (well at least not for >5min).
The SuperCharger would deliver up to 440V DC. That's a little up from peak voltage of 240V AC (340V[SUB]pp[/SUB]?). Insulation requirements should be slightly higher. The other thing is conductivity and getting rid of the excess heat in the cable. They surely design towards a combination of temperature and surface material that is safe to touch under full load, perhaps < 60�C. Or the cable has thermal management inside, just like the battery pack?�
Nov 3, 2011
TEG I just look at it as ~200amps for the 90kW 440V Supercharge, vs ~85amps for the 20kW 240V HPC2 charge.
So, I still think the Supercharger cable is going to be a lot fatter than the HPC2 cable just from the metal wire gauge, not even thinking about insulation...�
Sep 21, 2012
Robert.Boston Bonus points to @dadaleus for guessing this location.�
Sep 21, 2012
Cottonwood Most of the insulation used today is rated for 600V, so the insulation should not be any thicker, but the wire does need to carry the current...�
Sep 22, 2012
Todd Burch Thought this was worth repeating regarding charging Model S:
So if you've manually dropped the current for one reason or another...and then want to charge as quickly as possible later on, don't forget to crank the amperage back up!�
Sep 22, 2012
cinergi Yeah that's also different from the Roadster which remembers the setting by location. Maybe that'll be a future feature but that seemed like a nice feature.�
Sep 24, 2012
jkirkebo Battery pack voltage isn't 440V, it's around 360V. So the amperage would be around 250A, not 200A.
- - - Updated - - -
Battery pack voltage isn't 440V, it's around 360V. So the amperage would be around 250A, not 200A.�
Sep 27, 2012
daripalli Did any of you guys opt for the charging stand? if so how long in advance should i install it?�
Sep 27, 2012
Lloyd You need to really have a source of 240V power to charge the Model S effectively. Depending on your usage you may do fine charging at 40 amps with a 14-50 plug. The cord and plug for this is supplied with the car. If you need to charge faster than this you can order the HPWC $1200 which will charge for you at about 80 amps. I ordered an HPWC, but really I would likely do fine with just the 14-50 plug.�
Sep 27, 2012
Cottonwood I agree completely on this one. Having put in an HPC with 70A capability (90A CB) for my Roadster, in the last year dialing it back to 40 Amps and never having a need for any more, I opted for just using a 14-50 with my S. When I did the electrical work in my garage 3.5 years ago for the Roadster, I had the foresight to put in a 14-50 in the next bay over from where I put in the HPC for the Roadster. I put this in to test the Roadster mobile charger, and for use for future and visiting EV's. With this experience, I decided to just use the 14-50 for the S.
So far, this has worked well. 40A of charging from a 14-50 is enough to do a full charge overnight, even starting from near 0. An EV at home is like a cell phone. Plug it in, in the evening and its ready in the morning. Where you need more than a 14-50 is when traveling. That is where Superchargers are great, or perhaps HPWC's at good places. It is an extremely rare situation (at least for me) to come home after driving 200 miles or more and need a quick charge to go out again. If you think that may be a need, by all means put in an HPWC, but my experience is that I don't need it.�
Sep 28, 2012
TEG
OK, thanks - I was thinking in terms of amperage & voltage from Grid to Supercharger, not from Supercharger to Model S.
I guess the Supercharger lowers the voltage but increases the amperage.
So, in theory, the wires coming out of the Superchareger (to the Model S) should be thicker than the input wires.
(Well, even more so considering 3 phase in, and 2 wire DC output.)�
Sep 28, 2012
arg We know quite a lot about this now:
- The spy photos from the Folsom site http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/10286-Possible-supercharger-location-in-Folsom-CA#post189155 show that the grid input to the site is 500KVA at 12KV, with a transformer supplying 480/277V 3-phase to the Tesla equipment.
- Screen shots of a Model S charging show that, around 50% charge, charger voltage [==battery voltage] is 365V, with a current of 216A (and a max of 225A shown - not clear if this is car or charger limited).
- One of the video reports of the Supercharger event show a Tesla guy explaining that the Supercharger hardware is just a stack of the same chargers as used in the cars, paralleled up. He might possibly have just been speaking figuratively, but in fact this makes sense: we know the charger outputs can be paralleled (you can have 2 in a current Model S), there's been talk of using three of them for 3-phase charging in Europe, and it would obviously save a lot in development/production/maintenance to use the off-the-shelf Model S part rather than building something special-purpose.
- The standard Model S chargers are evidently a voltage step-up (current step-down) arrangement, since they produce 350+ volts DC to the battery from 240/208/120V inputs [350 > 240*sqrt(2)].
So, it all adds up to groups of 3 Model S chargers taking 277V at their inputs off a Y-connection to the 480/277V 3-phase supply. The only thing that doesn't quite add up with this theory is that 225A max output figure (225A @ 356Vdc would be just right for 8 chargers of 10KW each, but this theory says there would be 9 chargers). Maybe they are derated a bit.�
Sep 28, 2012
Lloyd I believe I heard in one U-tube that 1 stack of 9 chargers actually feeds two supercharger slots, allocating power to the two allowing one to ramp up while the other is ramping down. So one may be charging at 10 amps while the other is at 80.�
Sep 28, 2012
JakeP Cottonwood, can you please describe how difficult the "dialing back" process is for the HPC? Is it as simple as turning a dial on the HPC device, or does it involve electrical work, such as dropping from 100A breaker to 50A breaker? I am wiring a 100A subpanel out to the garage, and I have ordered an HPWC. I did so not because I need the charging speed, but just so I never have to take my cable out of the car and risk leaving it behind out of habit when I leave for a long work roadtrip, and also because I live at the junction of two major interstates here in the NE, and I will make myself available to other Tesla owners on Plugshare, etc. Given the several year wait we may have for Teslobelisks around here, hopefully this was the right choice!
What I want to know is this: can I set the HPWC for 40A for normal use, and then turn it up to 80A if somebody (myself included) needs a quick charge? Or does that change require wiring/electrical changes, and is best done a few years from now, when Superchargers make my HPWC less necessary?�
Sep 28, 2012
W.Petefish Set that in the car itself.�
Sep 28, 2012
JakeP Really? So I can tell the car to only draw 40A, unless I am in a big hurry then to draw 70A? That would be perfect.�
Sep 28, 2012
Lloyd Yep! really!!
and the car will remember what you set it at the last time you charged at that location.�
Sep 28, 2012
JakeP Thanks guys, this is great news. I thought for sure that the actual amperage out of the the device would need adjusting, and had seen references to be able to alter the HPWC settings. This is so much better.
Gee, how about a PDF of the Owner's Manual already, so I don't have to bug everyone on the forum with basic questions?!?�
Sep 28, 2012
dpeilow It wouldn't be the first time I've heard of n+1 redundancy and power routing on an EV charger. A bit annoying if 2 cars pull in and you have to wait longer though.�
Sep 28, 2012
Lloyd Yes, but if there are more than 1 pair, then best to choose the unoccupied pair!�
Sep 28, 2012
arg NYTimes article http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/30/automobiles/on-an-electric-highway-charging-into-the-future.html clarifies that it's _twelve_ standard chargers per stack (quoting JB Straubel as the source). And as we thought, it's one stack of chargers feeding two charge cables (with additional stacks at bigger sites feeding additional pairs of charging points).
So, based on the calculation a few posts back that it needed 8 chargers to fully satisfy one Model S, then the worst case of two emtpy cars pulling in at the same time will end up charging them at 75% of optimum rate. If we believe the rather approximate statement that it takes 30mins to fill to the point where the charge is tapering off, that will now take 40 mins rather than 30, then proceed the same as if there was only one car there. Not too bad.�
Sep 30, 2012
jkirkebo You CAN alter the HPWC max output, down to 32A (on a 40A breaker). This is for folks who cannot spare 80A for charging their EV but still want the nice HPWC on the wall instead of using the UMC on a 14-50 socket. Also the HPWC can support for example 56A charging on a 70A circuit.�
Jan 16, 2013
palmer_md If I purchased a used Model S that had only one charger, is is possible to have a second charger added at a later date? It would seem this should be doable by just replacing the wiring from the connector to the charger and adding the second charger with wiring to the pack. I would think that Tesla should be able to perform this upgrade at some cost...perhaps not the cost listed as an adder when new ($1500) but perhaps for $2000 or something. The only other issue would be that the VIN would not match the car because the number of chargers is listed on the VIN in character 7:
�
Jan 16, 2013
Lloyd Somebody asked that question earlier. Yes it can be done, but it is not easy. Expect ~$4,000 to do it after delivery.�
Jan 16, 2013
brianman Every time I see the "early" C in the VIN, I get a little sad. I know it saves money but in a few years the current or next owner will potentially regret it.�
Jan 16, 2013
VolkerP Part of "not easy" is hooking up the 2nd charger with the coolant loop. That means open the circuit which is already filled (but avoid spilling coolant in the charging bay), connect charger, bleed air, top up coolant -> labor cost.�
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