Thứ Hai, 30 tháng 1, 2017

The P85 is now obsolete. part 1

  • Nov 5, 2014
    Perfect_Flaw
    Yep, thats right. With all the hoorah about the P85D, Musk and the Tesla team quietly retired the P85 today. No longer will cars be built with a P85 badge, but rather a P85+ with dual motors, which is a P85D now. The real wheel drive performance car is gone, obsoleted, and retired.

    Glad I leased my P85. I figured technology advances with a car manufacturer that just started a couple years ago building the Model S would come out with something bigger and better and cause a crash in depreciation.

    All us RWD P85 people now drive what will be referred to as the "Old P85"

    I am kind of bummed, but it is expected. Just surprised that the P85 itself was simply retired which I am sure no one will want in a year down the road when people are selling their P85D's.. so the resale market just softened more than a wet noodle for the old "performance" model.
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  • Nov 5, 2014
    ACDriveMotor
    I have the feeling that the S was always intended to be AWD. Maybe the full drive train just wasn't ready in time. In any case I now have a classic collectors item!
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  • Nov 5, 2014
    Krugerrand
    Right. Along with green and brown Model S's.

    Or...you've all got collector items now. :wink:

    You choose: glass half empty or glass half full.
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  • Nov 5, 2014
    Blu Zap
    I understand. That's why when I buy a vehicle vs. lease, it is all about how long I will keep it. As you say if you want to upgrade, leasing is great. On the other hand, I tend to keep my vehicles for many years. I get the best there is at the time and enjoy what I bought.
    I have a 2006 Jeep Grand Cherokee Hemi. Hot vehicle and still enjoy driving it. But there is now the "Summit' version and other body styles. But its okay. I will still enjoy my P85+ years from now as it was the hottest Tesla at the time. And will still be hot then. I can also add all the aftermarket stuff I want and know I'll get my money's worth.
    At this point my vehicles are worth more to me than someone else. That's okay.
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  • Nov 5, 2014
    Perfect_Flaw
    Same thing happened when I bought my 2006 Kawasaki KXF450. It had a 4 speed gearbox. In 2007 they released the 5 speed gearbox. When it came to sell it 4 years later, the 2006's were selling at pretty much half the resale value of a 2007 because no one wanted the 4 speed when they could buy the used 5 speed. So the 4 speed guys had to take big hits to offload them. Sucked. This is the same thing... double whammy really, No autopilot hardware and RWD P85 motor. The old Model S performance model.

    I now know why my $108K P85 had a residual value after 3 years of $46,500 with $18,500 down on lease signing (15K/yr lease). They were expecting some pretty steep depreciation apparently- I thought I would be able to score a deal and buy it outright after the lease was up for $46.5K, now I am glad I leased because theres a good chance it will be worth less than $45K by then at the rate of these changes.
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  • Nov 5, 2014
    tdiggity
    Glass half full here:

    I don't think it's all bad. Some people may not be in the market for AWD. And, when presented with the option of the classic P85 or S85 with auto pilot, I don't think it's a slam dunk win for auto pilot.
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  • Nov 5, 2014
    pmppk
    New, the P85D costs significantly more than the P85 did, by about $15,000. The gap in price between a new P85D and a used P85 will be even greater... potentially by more than $30,000. Totally different price range.

    I think this makes a used P85 a much more attractive option to someone looking for a Performance Model S, who would otherwise be making a decision between a used P85 vs a new one.
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  • Nov 6, 2014
    stopcrazypp
    I don't think the P85 being discontinued is necessarily a bad thing, esp. given the MSRP gap as mentioned before. What will test resale values much more is when Tesla inevitably releases a 100+kWh pack.
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  • Nov 6, 2014
    tom66
    Interesting, they've also dropped the dual-motor 60kWh... they only had that for, what, a month? I'm guessing it wasn't a big seller.
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  • Nov 6, 2014
    WarpedOne
    Yes, they've tested the demand and saw another S40. Axe!
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  • Nov 6, 2014
    Rifleman
    Anyone buying a 60 (myself included) is most likely really stretching financially to buy the car. As a result, the uptake rate on an expensive option like AWD would not be very high. I would imagine most cars without the tech package are also 60's, for this reason. I know that if my plans to buy an inventory car fail (there have not been any "cheap" 60's in inventory since I put down my deposit) my plan is to buy a bone stripped new 60 at the end of my Volt lease, as it would be the only way to own a Tesla and not break the bank.
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  • Nov 6, 2014
    Jaff
    The title of this thread is misleading at best...the Model S is not obsolete to the overwhelming majority of the car buying public (99.9999%) who do not own one...:rolleyes:
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  • Nov 6, 2014
    scole04
    This was all in the Fiscal Quarter financial results call yesterday. Tesla needs to ramp up future production by not offering so many combinations. So they are keeping the lowest, the highest and allowing for variation in the S85 model. Sounds logical with the model x coming down the pike.
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  • Nov 6, 2014
    TechPreacher
    To me: different glass, full to the brim.
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  • Nov 6, 2014
    Krugerrand
    There's the spirit!
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  • Nov 6, 2014
    KOL2000
    One possibility that I have been thinking about is that the RWD P85 series motor was being mechanically taken to the limit and that is why drivetrains have had to be replaced for milling sounds and what not. With the non-P 85 this is not an issue and with all dual motor cars the mechanical demands on any one motor are less (both for regen and accel) so we are unlikely to see lots of motor replacements in the future.

    Is this a silly rationale or does anyone here think this might make a little sense?
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  • Nov 6, 2014
    tomas
    Including sales tax differential, my p85 was almost 30k less than the new D configured similarly. Yes awd and sensors great, but I think early P should have active resale market. I could sell at 66% of my net purchase price and buyer would pay about 50% of new D price.

    I'm renaming 85V. For value.
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  • Nov 6, 2014
    Thud
    Your P85 is not any slower than it was a couple days ago. I don't think the resale would be affected, because now there's currently nothing in the price slot where the P85 used to be. There's a significant price gap between S85 and P85D.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I wonder if they will still be delivering previous orders of the 60D. Whoever ordered a 60D with green paint and black colored roof probably will have a one-of-a-kind model. :)
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  • Nov 6, 2014
    HankLloydRight
    Totally disagree. In fact, I think the resale value of P85 and P85+ just went up a tad, precisely because there is no comparable model that one can buy new. Not everyone wants/needs dual motors for either the performance (and price!) or the AWD handling. I don't! I'm *extremely* happy with my P85+ I got as an inventory car at less than the price of a new P85. None of that changes just because TM retired the P85. And in real snowy/icy weather, I have an ICE I can drive through, as even if I had an AWD MS, I wouldn't take it out in the snow because of all the salt, dirt, ice, and really bad drivers out there in weather like that. If I'm going to have an accident in the snow/ice, I'd rather it be in the ICE than the MS.

    Also, since there's no "New P85", why would the existing fleet of P85s be called the "Old P85"??

    I'm glad I bought my P85+. I plan to own and drive it for many years to come. It's still a total kick-in-the-pants to drive. And I don't have a perpetual lease payment (incl interest) either, just to keep the option to upgrade in the future which would just reset the lease payment clock.

    Will I trade up in the future? Sure, when there's a bigger/better battery and/or lots of other MS advancements, but I don't see that happening for about 5 years. And I'll still have the Tesla smile during all of those 5 years.

    My cup runneth over.

    - - - Updated - - -

    That's a pretty small number of cars with that problem...and those people have been more vocal than the thousands of people without any problems. I drive the crap out of my P85+ and have never had any drivetrain issues. And IIRC, the milling sounds and other problems with the early motors wasn't due to them being taken to their mechanical limits. In fact, IIRC, the inverter is the limiting factor, and there's still more headroom for the motor to produce even more power than the P85 or P85+ currently allow.
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  • Nov 6, 2014
    ItsNotAboutTheMoney
    Not silly, but I think the simpler answer is that Tesla can make more money by cutting back on less popular and/or lower-margin options.
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  • Nov 6, 2014
    SarahsDad
    +1 HLR

    I was worried when they axed the P85+ but kept the P85, now happy that all the "P" models are gone except 4WD. There will always be a market for fast RWD only cars. Mine is lighter than the P85D, less complex with one motor, much larger frunk (the P85D frunk looks about half the size - lost the "microwave and then some...), and will fit a nice price point. Yay.
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  • Nov 6, 2014
    Perfect_Flaw
    We are all going to have our different opinions and rationale about this topic for sure, and that is 100% completely understandable. But then again, we are currently financially invested in our vehicles so our opinions are slightly biased.

    I am specifically saying that to new potential Tesla buyers or the general public, the P85 has been rendered obsolete. This is especially true if someone today decides he wants to go out and purchase Tesla's performance car, which is now the P85D, and not the P85. The P85 will now only exist in the second hand market and can not be purchased as new, kind of like when a new 2014 HDTV is released and then pulled off the shelves and replaced with a newer/better model. This is exactly why HDTV's depreciate extremely quick. You can also look at it like the P85 is the iPhone 5S and the P85D is the 6. The Model S is great, but it has the same sentiment as most other technological gadgets out there, especially the way Elon goes about hyping the "newer, better" versions.

    At the end of the day the P85 is a great car, and will always be- but it is disappointing it was retired so early on in it's life.

    Just the other day a guy was walking out of Albertsons as my wife and I were loading groceries and he said "Nice car.. I love those. Is that the one that can drive itself?" I replied "No, my car was built right before the autopilot stuff was announced" and his reply- "Yep, I read that the newer cars are coming with those features" Awesome.. here I was sitting with my "brand new" P85, no license plate yet, and some guy referred to the self-driving cars as "newer" and in his mind I had the older one. This is a great example of how these features are being marketed and hyped making potential Tesla buyers and the general public thinking of the Model S like a smartphone- when new features come out, the previous version is "old".
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  • Nov 6, 2014
    HankLloydRight
    Except that they're totally not "self driving." Even with the sensors.

    I would have at least corrected him on that notion.
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  • Nov 6, 2014
    Zextraterrestrial
    yep. 'old' grey, lacewood, p85 , chrome insets, extra large frunk ...my car is only getting better
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  • Nov 6, 2014
    ecarfan
    The P85 is certainly not "obsolete". That is an absurd statement. It remains an awesome vehicle and will be desirable for years to come. The P85D is far more costly than the P85 and there will certainly be a good market for used P85 cars. Look at the P85 from the perspective of someone who has never owned a Tesla, which is almost everyone: it is an amazing car just as it is!

    It is important to accept the fact that Tesla is a technologically driven company that is innovating rapidly. Every few years they are going to introduce major improvements to their products, which are constantly being incrementally improved. Get used to it because that is the reality...
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  • Nov 6, 2014
    randompersonx
    It's yet another rehashing of the same topic, but it is unfortunately for you, a previous generation model. That's not to mean it is obsolete -- but it is not the "new" one, either.

    There are also people who bought the iPhone 5S 1 week before the iPhone 6 announcement -- and such is life.

    My Porsche 997 Turbo doesn't have bluetooth, and cannot have it retrofit -- the 997.1 Turbo does. "Just missed it by a few months" etc, but that's life.

    I ordered a P85D, and I'm sure that next year, there will be new features, too. If you want to minimize your risk to this, always wait for the next big announcement, and order then.
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  • Nov 6, 2014
    R�B
    Obsolete is a little strong. If the P85D was the same price as the discontinued P85 (in line with the iPhone example someone else mentioned) then I would be more inclined to agree with you. That not being the case what we really have is a collectors item which caters to the people who want high performance for $10-$15k less than what's currently offered. I think there's a nice little niche pocket where the P85 sits right now that would make it attractive to potential buyers who are are stretching their budget just to buy a Tesla and those that perhaps don't want to wait on the production schedule but want near the same performance.
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  • Nov 6, 2014
    Zextraterrestrial
    > 2 years not bad
    I am actually kind of happy they dropped it. makes them a little more special + I don't want auto-crap features! sonar is neat and all but the rear camera for blindspots is plenty
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  • Nov 6, 2014
    SarahsDad
    And to continue the iPhone analogy, the iPhone 6 no longer offers the smaller screen. I suspect the 5S will continue to sell well to those who want the best features but the smaller size. Likewise the P85/P85+ will continue to sell well (used) to those who want RWD.
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  • Nov 6, 2014
    AmpedRealtor
    This is not true at all. The drive train issue was addressed during the previous earnings call last quarter.

    - - - Updated - - -

    66% seems very low... The cheapest used P85 at cars.com is priced at $75k and goes up from there. Many are priced over $95,000.
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  • Nov 6, 2014
    wiztecy
    Does this also mean my 1.5 Roadster is Obsolete? Eeeegads, how'd this happen if it did? :scared: But back to reality, some people may not want all the gadgets, bells and whistles so the early Model-S's would be more desirable to some.
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  • Nov 6, 2014
    AmpedRealtor
    Agreed!

    The P85 is as obsolete as any Model S that was purchased before the autopilot announcement. P85, along with all S60 and S85s, will continue to receive software updates and retrofits. In fact, the new sun visors will be available as a retrofit item for previous owners. It's discontinued, yes, but obsolete? Hardly.

    It's pretty clear to me that a larger battery is coming next year, somewhere between 100 and 110 kWh. I'd hate to be spending $120k+ today on a P85D only to see a P105D next year at the same price point. Taking Elon's statements that we are going to see a larger capacity battery next year, I think the writing is on the wall. We will probably see a S105D with similar 0-60 times of the now discontinued P85, so that hole will get filled. Then we will be having this conversation all over again about how P85D owners are obsolete and screwed.

    Such is life.
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  • Nov 6, 2014
    andrewket
    I'll still be content with my P85D. 85kWh and the super chargers gets me where I want to go. Already drove cross country using the SCs. I would rarely use the extra capacity of 105kWh. Will the 105kWh pack charge faster? Probably, but again, in the real world how much time will it shave off to 85kWh? Even if it's 15 minutes I'll take the trade off to own the P85D today. During the cross country trip I rather enjoyed the 30-40 minute breaks.

    A P85D that uses fewer of the newer cells, reduces weight, and is therefore more efficient is the strongest argument to me.
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  • Nov 6, 2014
    blaz
    When did he make these statements? Source?
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  • Nov 6, 2014
    BlueTan85
    Yeah, provide source, please. He said no such thing during yesterday's conf call.

    On the subject of P85 being obsolete, it's sad. I would've liked to have bought one but settled for the S85.

    Just think, in a year, or two, or so, the P85D will be obsolete too. Prolly replaced by a P100D or higher.

    And I also suspect that some day in the not too distant future they'll get rid of the "D" designation too, as they'll go to all AWD for all orders so the "D" becomes default and therefore no need to mention it.
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  • Nov 6, 2014
    Krugerrand
    Yeah, I didn't hear that either. In fact, I thought I heard recently that there would NOT be any 'major' changes coming for the next little bit, just the standard software upgrades.
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  • Nov 6, 2014
    ArtInCT
    The direct quote is >>
    "so no major platform changes in the hardware are planned in the near term. There will, however, be several significant over-the-air software releases - at no cost to owners - that provide added functionality to the Model S fleet"

    Second Paragraph of the 3rd Quarter 2014 Shareholder Letter

    I suspect the definition of near term is up for grabs.... Probably some time in the 2nd half of 2015 just about when the X begins delivery.
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  • Nov 6, 2014
    PlanB
    Who wants to buy my collectors item!!!!!
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  • Nov 6, 2014
    3mp_kwh
    Having been around for the 959 and F40 wars, more than two decades ago, one thing is different here. The P85D went from 3.9, to 3.1, which could probably be 3.0, or 2.9, with DOT legal compounds. That marginal increase in speed blew away the improvements other auto co's would probably offer in an existing model.

    For P85D owners, who won't just be keeping up with the fastest sedans, but abjectly cutting their legs off, Musk can change their colors, make blue the new red, etc., but I doubt another 8 TENTHS are lurking somewhere.
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  • Nov 6, 2014
    Chuck P85D
    i'm not sure what this means?
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  • Nov 7, 2014
    pinguhk
    P85 RIP
    buy a Tesla is like buying a phone a new 1 comes out every year
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  • Nov 7, 2014
    tomas
    Obsolete: no longer produced or used; out of date.

    No longer produced: true
    No longer used: false
    Out of date: false, IMO though each may interpret

    like iphone: no. New iPhone costs same as old one. New 85D costs 30k more than my P85

    Tesla has done good job of pricing in updates gradually to preserve value in earlier cars without overpricing today's model. That's not easy.
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  • Nov 7, 2014
    gavine
    Maybe they will de-activate the front motor with software, lol.
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  • Nov 7, 2014
    ACDriveMotor
    And like with the iPhone that is a feature not a bug. And are you suggesting that other manufacturers don't change their cars on a regular basis?
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  • Nov 7, 2014
    BlkCld
    Love my P85. Had a P85+ for about a month and 99% of the time hated the suspension. Made my wife nauseous. Took a friend when returning it and he even commented how much better ride my P85 was.
    I could be coaxed down the line into a P85D maybe. AWD not needed but just the acceleration would be fun. Unfortunately if they are all the + suspension then no thanks. Just lost an upgrade customer. + Good for taking curves at speed but since that is minimal I'd rather the major portion of driving be comfortable.
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  • Nov 7, 2014
    breser
    If only it was that simple. Since October 9th, they've made what at least 2 sets of changes to the ordering (option changes for P85D and the removal of several options on the 5th).
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  • Nov 7, 2014
    Cosmacelf
    I agree 100%. I tried out a + after having my P85 for a while, and decided the stiffer suspension wasn't for me. The slightly longer range of the D would be nice, and supposedly the seats are better. Would be nice to have suspension options...
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  • Nov 7, 2014
    AMPUP
    P85+ is a collectors. I'm keeping mine
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  • Nov 7, 2014
    dsm363
    I guess you'll have to sell the car and buy the P85D then. I have a very different understanding of the word obsolete. My car still works and could still find a buyer if I wanted to sell it. Sure I'll get less money now with the P85D and autopilot sensors out but it's not obsolete.
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  • Nov 7, 2014
    breser
    He can't, he leased.
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  • Nov 7, 2014
    ckessel
    There are some steam powered collector's cars that fit that definition. They're still obsolete though.

    My P85 may be something of an odd duck now lacking the D's performance or auto-pilot, but in 5-7 years it'll still be worlds better than the comparable 5-7 year old cars on the market. So unless the entire used car market crashes badly, my P85 will still command a decent relative value. Particularly if you can pick up an old P85, pay $8k and drop in a new 85kwh battery.
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  • Nov 7, 2014
    AmpedRealtor
    Watch Elon's statements on stage with JB from Oslo, I think. Search for Bjorn Nylund videos in YouTube. I don't remember the time stamp where it starts.
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  • Nov 7, 2014
    randompersonx
    You can always buy a car off lease, and sell it -- and SOME leasing agreements allow you to use a site like leasetrader to give the lease to someone else who prefers it.

    Either way, likely expect some cash out of pocket -- no different than any other car, the depreciation tends to be front loaded.
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  • Nov 7, 2014
    mesalum
    I assume those of us with a P85 on order will still get our cars? Or will they throw in the up front parts for free? :wink:

    I had thought about upgrading to the D but I have an AWD ICE that I am keeping. It received a new engine at 97K miles due to exploding spark plug being sucked into the engine.
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  • Nov 7, 2014
    AmpedRealtor
    Here's an article about that video where Musk states bigger battery in 2015:

    Elon Musk Answers Tesla Owners' Questions in Oslo : EVWORLD.COM

    Per the article, "But he also noted that it's possible the company will offer a larger capacity battery in 2015, which is just about the time the X will go into production." The statement references the same section of the video that I am, but again, don't want to go through the whole thing again to find the time stamp. Lots of great information in the video, too.
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  • Nov 7, 2014
    ReddyLeaf
    True story: Last night at a middle school science event I talked with two 11 yo girls who wanted to know if my 2011 Leaf was self-driving. They also wanted to know if the license law would be amended to allow an 11 yo to be piloted by a self driving car! A subsequent discussion between us "older drivers" and some of the "future drivers" revealed that most older people didn't think it would happen (can you imagine a 6 yo or a 2 yo being piloted?), while most "future drivers" felt it should happen. I think this is evidence that the "future" generation is already accustomed to rapid technological changes. Bottom line: Yup, your car today is "obsolete" to the next buyer because they can get something "better" new. Get used to it. The automobile is starting to follow the path of the computer.
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  • Nov 7, 2014
    ACDriveMotor
    So many drivers have not yet experienced the thrill of an S85 let alone a P85. With the price gap there are likely to be more drivers interested in buying and I suspect that demand is likely to increasingly outstrip supply for used cars.

    @reddy the car is "obsolete" only if the future drivers can afford something better new. The vast majority of future drivers will be Model 3 targets based on price range. The used S market will slot in between new Model 3 and new Model S vehicles. At least that is what I suspect is TMC's plan. The gap between a $40K car and a $130K car is otherwise too big. It screams for TMC to introduce another model in between in the future. In the meantime I suspect that P85(+) vehicles will enjoy a niche to themselves.
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  • Nov 7, 2014
    MsElectric
    Most drivers looking to buy a $70-90K used car certainly have experienced sub 5 second 0-60 acceleration and some likely have experienced sub 4 second acceleration as well.

    With the P85D though they can pay more and get astounding performance. As the P85D will show p in the used market and as inventory cars 6 months from now the value of P85s should drop further. Already you can buy P85 and P85+ vehicles used for the mid to late 70s. A few at that price range were recently listed on cars.com.
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  • Nov 7, 2014
    Perfect_Flaw
    I contacted my local Tesla mall showrooms and got a list of some inventory cars available.

    Unbelievable, P85 and P85s decently optioned out with 735 - 2500 miles with $7300 - $17,000 discounts on them. I asked why such steep discounts and they said they "are clearing older inventory because the new P85D's are coming"

    Spin it how you want it, the P85 is old news to Tesla... I am not gonna lie, when my lease is up I will drop this thing back off at their front door and order a P85D. It just sucks that I *JUST* leased this car last month and while I am happy, I would have easily sprung for the P85D if there was some type of timeframe announced as to when it was coming out. We all knew an AWD car was coming out, but not with Autopilot features, new seats, new this and that, etc. Oh well, still love the car..
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  • Nov 7, 2014
    ACDriveMotor
    I don't disagree entirely MsElectric but I would say "many" rather than "most" purchasers in that category. I think that will prove less true as more people gain confidence enough to consider an EV.
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  • Nov 7, 2014
    3mp_kwh
    In my experience, 10-15k off was not unusual when P85's went through, as "inventory" before the summer supply cut. Many, of course, were stickering at 110-120k.

    RWD is lots more fun than most AWD cars. The problem is people who buy cars, who are fearful about tail wagging, or, with Tesla, want the day to arrive where they can let go of their steering wheel.
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  • Nov 7, 2014
    Six
    Prices on used P85 and P85+ are currently way down. I personally think it is too soon to know if:

    - This is a temporary drop in price based on a large increase in supply (many high end P85s being traded/sold to upgrade to the P85D). This is comparably to the sharp drop in Tesla Roadster prices when many were traded in/sold when the first Model S cars were sold. Used roadster prices later stabilized at higher levels.

    - This is a permanent drop in P85 prices that will continue to drop further

    My personal opinion is that if new P85s were continued to be produced the used price drop on P85s would likely continue. But with the very large price gap between new 85 and P85D, there is room for used P85s to be attractive. I of course have no idea if I am right. I do not expect many used P85Ds on the market in the next 6 months however so I do not think used P85D prices will impact used P85 prices in the near future. But who knows
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  • Nov 7, 2014
    MsElectric
    The reason I said "many" considering the S85D may go for the P85D is that most looking to pay around $85-90K for a vehicle are already familiar with sub 5 second 0-60 acceleration offered by the S85. That's A6, BMW 5 series, E class territory. Though fast that's not that special. I think many may want to pay a modest sum extra and experience Lamborghini level acceleration that leaves the entire Mercedes AMG line-up in the dust.

    If Tesla had an AWD vehicle somewhere in between the S85D and the P85D we would have bought it but we really didn't want something that accelerated just about what our 550i would do. I realize without a transmission the S85 might be "quicker" but we wanted a car that was faster than what we would be giving up and the P85D is all there is.

    I really think at some point they need to bump up the performance of the S85D. There is too much of a gap between that and the P85D and though fast I don't find the S85D to be fast enough. When we test drove the S85 though it was nice, the P85 is where we actually had fun driving and sold us on Tesla as a brand. I'm excited our own Tesla is going to be even better :)

    - - - Updated - - -

    I doubt the bottom has yet fallen with the P85 values. The plus package will be almost worthless in the used car market before long as it is no more faster than the P85 and it come with larger wheels and seats with a decoration. The P85s are already in the 70s. In December through early part of next year when more Tesla customers trade up for a D the P85 values will likely drop further.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Fun, maybe if you really know how to handle it. Most people, including virtually everyone I know don't. If you loose control of a RWD car, unless you know what you are doing you are done as you are likely looking at a horrible disaster.

    With an AWD car there is a lesser chance you will do something dumb with the car and loose control and I personally would never buy a high horsepower car without AWD. There is a reason why pretty much everyone premium car manufacturer is moving towards AWD only vehicles in their higher trim levels... Apart from a very few driving enthusiasts who like RWD cars I bet the majority of potential Model S buyers would prefer to have AWD and this is likely why Tesla discontinued the P85. With the P85D available, it made no sense.
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  • Nov 7, 2014
    dsm363
    So the P85D will be 'obsolete' next year with the higher capacity battery comes out? The iPhone 5S isn't obsolete because the iPhone 6 came out. If the P85 stopped receiving software updates or Tesla said they wouldn't provide service on it anymore then yes, call that obsolete. You can say the P85D made the P85 much less desirable and hurt the resale value but that is not obsolescence.
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  • Nov 7, 2014
    Gizmotoy
    Agreed. Many P85 owners upgraded to the P85D and put their P85s on the market. There's a huge glut of them right now, even in the for sale section here on the forum. That'll die down, and then for the near to mid future a used P85 is going to be quite a deal for a fast electric. Especially given the price differentials between a used P85 and a new P85D, and between a new 85D and P85D. That's a nice niche in which a used P85 can sit.
    �
  • Nov 7, 2014
    Xenoilphobe
    P85 is still really relevant - these sales are not a permanent market state, but a "I have gotta have the new toy" market blip. No way in hell I would sell my loaded garaged Opticoated, car for 70K - but my wife might get a really nice car that turns heads at every stop light. I just stuck a Magnetic Letter "D" on the back with 3M tape- and I am getting lots of questions!!! Just saved me $30K!!

    Don't think Obsolete is the right word.


    adjective
    [COLOR=#878787 !important][/COLOR]



    But I look out the window and see lots of really obsolete cars all around me on my commute :wink:.

    Once they work out the bugs I will buy a P85D in year or so - once they add the vibrating, air conditioned seats, LTE, hotspot, Carbon Fiber body, etc..
    �
  • Nov 7, 2014
    HankLloydRight
    The buggy whip, magnetic core memory, the slide rule, 8-tracks, rotary phones, 45s, VCRs, floppy disks, and the card catalog are obsolete.

    The P85 and P85+ are still among the most advanced, high performance, and desirable vehicles on the road.

    Discontinued? Yes. Collector's item? Possibly.

    Obsolete? No way.
    �
  • Nov 7, 2014
    http.com
    Obsolete? Lol!
    �
  • Nov 7, 2014
    Perfect_Flaw
    obsolete
    /??bs??li?t; ??bs??li?t/

    adjective

    1.out of use or practice; not current <-- P85 not current and no longer produced, P85D current

    2.out of date; unfashionable or outmoded <-- P85 outmoded by P85D and is out of date vs. P85D

    verbUS


    • 1.
      cause (a product or idea) to be or become obsolete by replacing it with something new.
      "we're trying to stimulate the business by obsoleting last year's designs"

    Urban Dictionary Definition (    :tongue:):

    Obsolete
    A time-released function on all technology (especially PCs) that activates itself right after you buy the device.
    �
  • Nov 7, 2014
    PlanB
    It's going to be amusing reading all the issue threads it the D for the first year. I plan on ordering my D late next year when most of the issues are worked out.
    �
  • Nov 7, 2014
    HankLloydRight
    But you have look at the big picture and compare the P85 not to just other Tesla's, but all cars on the road.

    In that respect, the P85 is current and fashionable. Not obsolete.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Oh, you mean when there's a bigger battery, and the P85D becomes "obsolete" ??
    �
  • Nov 7, 2014
    gpetti
    It seems likely to me that a new battery (e.g. 105kwh) should be possible to retrofit. Not cheap mind you, but cheaper than another car. Can't imagine what kind of trade in pricing we would get for that upgrade. I'm pretty comfortable that 85 kWh will serve me fine for the foreseeable future but if the price was right in the future and my existing battery was losing range I might consider an upgrade.
    �
  • Nov 7, 2014
    PlanB
    exactly.
    �
  • Nov 7, 2014
    Zzzz...
    It is also not helping that even new S85 got higher top speed than an old P85, 140 vs 130 mph. And S85D got 155mph.
    �
  • Nov 7, 2014
    MarkR
    I will happily keep my S85 until the Model 3 arrives. Back in the 1970's the cultural philosopher Stewart Brand commented on the "tyranny of the new." A lot has changed, but the tyranny has only amped up. Long live the S85!
    �
  • Nov 7, 2014
    CarlK
    You P owners worry too much. A P will always be worth thousands more than a non-P if you want to sell yours, or more enjoyable than a non-P if you decide not to.
    �
  • Nov 8, 2014
    Niclas
    Who cares about top speed, really?
    �
  • Nov 8, 2014
    ToddRLockwood
    I don't agree. The P85D is substantially more expensive than the P85. This will make the used P85's more attractive to buyers wanting to get in at under $100K. There are multiple levels to the used Model S market.
    �
  • Nov 8, 2014
    ckessel
    True. I could not have afforded the P85D. I could afford the P85 at the time and it was the outer limit of what I could manage. In truth, it was a bit beyond what I could manage without some major sacrifices and I banked on Tesla's stock rising some.

    Presumably there will be folks like me in the used market, able to make the leap the P85, but not the P85D.

    It's the lack of auto-pilot and parking sensors that I think will kill my P85's resale value. I think that's going to be akin to someone trying to sell a P85 without the tech package :(
    �
  • Nov 8, 2014
    AmpedRealtor
    There is no reason to sell my P85 until there are larger capacity batteries and probably a version 2.0 Model S redesign inside and out. When it does come time to sell, I'm pretty confident that the P85 will carry resale values between the S85/D and P85D, where the performance gap will be nicely filled by the P85. When you are buying the P85D, you are buying it for the performance and not necessarily the AWD. Not everyone needs or wants AWD. If you're looking at 0-60 times, the P85 will hold its own resale value because doing away with it has left a performance gap.

    I also paid about $10,000 less for my configuration than those who received the autopilot, so the autopilot pricing differential is somewhat built-in.
    �
  • Nov 9, 2014
    CaptDaveHowe
    Funny, just yesterday I had a guy, a car buff with a Jaguar follow me after parking to discuss my Model S. The common thread always ends up with a question about the value of the Model S in the future, to which my answer is always, "not sure, due to technology only getting better". So, agreeing with a another reply to this thread, I think the next time, I would lease and not purchase a tech car like a Tesla. Make sense?
    �
  • Nov 9, 2014
    dhanson865
    You put the order of value

    S85 / S85D
    P85
    P85D

    me I would put the P85 between the S85 and S85D in value

    S85
    P85
    S85D
    P85D

    I'd rather have the range the S85D offers than the acceleration the P offers. Top speed doesn't matter to me but the S85D is higher than the P on that as well.
    �
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