Mar 24, 2016
calisnow So I've now visited the Rancho Cucamonga Supercharger several times - each time it has been at least 50% full (except one time when I was there late at night) - and it has 14 stalls.
Today at 3:30 pm I visited Burbank and was number 3 in a line of Teslas waiting to charge - and this was at a Service Center.
I can imagine the Superchargers in the middle of nowhere have a long time to go until they're clogged. For example the two on the way to Mammoth I have not yet seen a single soul at.
But So Cal is already approaching capacity on normal, non-holiday days.
Anyone know what Tesla's game plan is?
The Rancho Cucamonga location, for example, is located at a mall where there is plenty of room to double, triple or even quadruple capacity.
Or will Tesla add more stations rather than increase the number of chargers at each station?
If, a year from now, there are twice as many Teslas on the road, stations will be frequently full. And this does not even factor in Model 3.
Rancho Cucamonga's station, for example, is surrounded by literally thousands of suburban homes occupied by commuters who drive into L.A. and Orange County for work.
If Tesla doesn't do something to limit demand they will treat that station like a free gas station for their morning commute.
I wonder if at some point Tesla will stop offering free supercharging "for life" - and simply grandfather in the cars which have already been sold - but stop offering it on new sales as a "pay once, unlimited for life" option.
Maybe go to a subscription or per-use model.�
Mar 24, 2016
dennis A few comments:
1) 50% full isn't close to being clogged
2) Even assuming Tesla makes its 80K-90K forecast for 2016 deliveries there won't be twice as many Tesla cars on the road a year from now.
3) The issue of local charging and limiting free for life has been debated on numerous other threads here ad nauseum
As far as Tesla's plan, they monitor supercharging activity very closely and both expand existing locations and add new locations as needed. In 2013 there were only 2 superchargers locations in the LA area - now there are 8. I would expect them to continue with free supercharging for life for Model S and Model X. No one knows what the supercharging model will be for Model 3.�
Mar 24, 2016
Mike K While I appreciate the Burbank supercharger the few times I get to use it, I have no idea a) why it's there and b) why it's only 6 stalls.
It's not close to an expressway in the sense that you can jump off and then right back on and it's in a far too populated area to have so few stalls. It seems like it was doomed from the start. You look at other superchargers in heavily congested areas and there are stalls a plenty. Culver City for instance, there are what, maybe 20 - 25 stalls? And you need that many because of the location. Hawthorne is similar.
I actually think that it would be better not to have a supercharger station than to have one that's too small for the area it serves because if people come to assume a particular station is always full, they stop relying on that station. Burbank is close to me and I would top off there before a trip but now I just plan ahead and make sure I'm charged because too many times I've pulled in there only to find no open stalls.�
Mar 24, 2016
Tanquen Musk has already commented on folks that live next to and or otherwise abuse the superchargers. It seems like they have a bit more bandwidth once they move from nasty-grams to blocking abusers from the superchargers.�
Mar 25, 2016
ifung90 This has been a problem for Hong Kong supercharger network for the last 12 months.
During holiday season, I was in line at a 6 stall charger area (largest one we have) and there were 9 cars WAITING while 6 are charging.
This is a big issue for our city as private apartment housings do not allow installation of wall boxes in private stalls even if you own the spot (which is no cheap affair ... my parking stall cost $11,500 USD and that's inexpensive compared to some regions).
YET Tesla Hong Kong keeps increasing superchargers where there are way less demands than the constantly congested stations. Sometimes I don't understand Tesla's methodology as a company and whether they really listen to our demands or if it's just for publicity sake.�
Mar 25, 2016
ecarfan "Superchargers will be clogged in 12 months unless"... Tesla builds more Superchargers.
Amazingly, they will do just that. Problem solved.�
Mar 25, 2016
mikeash I see three CA Supercharger locations under construction at the moment, and six permitted. So, uh, I think they're building more.�
Mar 25, 2016
techmaven The real solution is obviously to tear down the reasons why slow, nighttime charging is either underutilized or not utilized. That means government officials and lawmakers need to see the light. Using L3 DC fast charging is not a sustainable and reasonable method forward en masse.
We are starting to see some of that including legislation in some regions that require the provision for charging support with ordinances for parking lots and changes to the electrical code. Further, getting people that can charge at home, at night, is a noteworthy effort. In some cases, that's figuring out how to get nighttime 1-4 am super off peak rates to be low enough such that people won't bother going to Superchargers. I pay 6 cents/kWh at super off peak with a special EV rate plan. A typical commuter uses 10 kWh a day, so that's $0.60/night, or $4.20 a week. For California, linking nighttime wind production during times of relatively excess production to EV charging should be done to make it economically viable to install lots more wind energy and bring down super off peak rates for EVs. Ideally, you can opportunistically charge during high wind production nights at extra low rates, possibly even free if the wholesale spot price drops far enough. That means pushing such changes through the utility regulatory bodies.
The other answer is obviously that Tesla builds more Superchargers as well as continuing to build out the destination charging network. I suspect that a better answer is to throw in the cost of setting up home/condo charging, at least $1,000 or $2,000 towards it as part of the cost of the car.�
Mar 25, 2016
taldric Personally, I think there should be some kind of block on "locals" using SuperChargers. Something like your car won't charge at a SuperCharger if that SuperCharger is within 10 miles of your home. Or maybe Tesla just charges you if you use a SuperCharger within 10 miles of your home.
I know that I charge at home every night and have only been to a SuperCharger once in the 2 weeks I've owned my Model S and that was just to test it out - but that SuperCharger was more than 10 miles from me.
I plan to do some distance driving with the Tesla this year, and I can see how it would really frustrate me if I pull into a SuperCharger only to find that locals are using all the slots so I have to wait in line.�
Mar 25, 2016
McRat Understand that not everybody lives in a single family home. I'm fortunate to have a 400 amp home and 600 amp x 480vac business, but that is not the norm for midrange priced car buyers.
The market price on Teslas right now keeps the ratio of condo/apartment dwellers low comparatively, but once the Model 3 is released, the demographic will change dramatically.
If you cannot charge at home, superchargers are Gas Stations. You fill your "tank" and drive for days.
Tesla will need more DCFC sites to serve this demographic, whether they are supercharger, CHAdeMO, or SAE level 3.
Tesla should monetize EV charging and dominate that industry, which will be a multi-billion dollar industry in under 10 years. This would require their sites to service multiple brands at a profit, and the Teslas for free.
It will take about 50,000 DCFC sites in North America alone to provide adequate service for apartment dwellers. Modeling this as a cost center is not an option.�
Mar 25, 2016
mikeash The solution for condos and apartments isn't an expanded DCFC network, it's an expansion of L2 chargers that can be used overnight. There's no technical reason that L2 chargers can't be installed in every condo or apartment's parking structure, or indeed on the street for people who have to park there. L2 charging is cheap, it doesn't make sense to build out expensive fast chargers to handle uses that L2 charging can do just as well. There are real obstacles, but they're political; convincing your apartment/condo management to allow installation of chargers, and the like. I think that will change naturally with time. Right now, managers feel comfortable refusing such requests because there are few EV owners. Once a decent percentage of their potential customer base owns EVs, it'll be something they'll have to accommodate in order to remain competitive.�
Mar 25, 2016
jeffro01 As I've said in other threads about this, and I'll say it again here, if you can't charge at home\work then don't buy the car. I'm already running into the same full supercharger issues and it's only going to get worse.
Tesla isn't building them in CA nearly fast enough, not even close. It's laughable that only 3 are under construction and 6 are in permit stage (which can take forever). It should be at least twice, if not three times, more than that. That doesn't even approach the situation that other buyers across the US face with huge gaps in supercharger coverage.
Tesla can do better, and they must do better. Their entire brand and selling point is very quickly becoming tied to the concept of superchargers and free long distance travel. Tesla needs to be ahead of this curve, not behind it like they currently are.
Jeff�
Mar 25, 2016
Eclectic This is one of the reasons why I'm not even considering a Model 3 to replace my current second car (a VW Rabbit). While it doesn't happen every time, waits at superchargers are an increasingly frequent problem when we take longer trips with our P85D. Even when there isn't a wait, it takes over 30 minutes to get a decent amount of range, and when the superchargers are full it can take an hour or more.
The thing that people may not be thinking about is that with a projected range of only 200 miles, the Model 3 is going to have to use superchargers more frequently than Model S/X vehicles do. For example, we can make a round trip to Folsom from the Bay Area with one stop at a supercharger in our P85D. With a Model 3, we'd probably have to make two stops at superchargers.
So if the Model 3 is a sales success, you not only have a ton more Teslas using superchargers, you have more frequent use in many cases due to the 3 having less range for trips.
Maybe Tesla is going to charge Model 3 owners for supercharger use and use that money to dramatically expand the supercharger network. In that situation, the Model 3 actually paves the way for a much more robust supercharger network at no additional cost to the current Tesla Model S/X owners, which will prevent the supercharger crowding problem from getting worse. I hope that's what happens.
Either way, though, I'm already getting nervous about the situation for my existing Tesla and won't even consider a new one until we see how this is going to play out.�
Mar 25, 2016
TexasEV Supercharger capacity can also grow by decreasing the time it takes to supercharge. That's why Tesla is testing the liquid cooled cables at Mountain View and probably other improvements are in development that we don't know about. Of course that would require people not abandoning their cars for hours at a supercharger. A fee for parking there for a substantial time after charging has finished should solve that.�
Mar 25, 2016
HHHH I think Tesla does have a firm handle on the situation, and while there are naturally going to be occasions that the superchargers are crazy busy (i.e. San Juan Capistrano at any time I've ever been there), the build out will solve these issues. It may not be happening as fast as everyone would like, but it has to be a necessity item for them to address immediately. They will naturally build more in CA than anywhere else given the sales / ownership volume there.
I don't think limiting the current ownership base that lives within 10 miles is a suggestion that will work for Tesla because it will only be a matter of time until an owner desperately needed a charge, but because of the new rule, their battery died or something catastrophic happened. I do think that Elon's statement that Tesla is monitoring abuse or unnecessary overuse by repeat offenders is something that, if enforced, would deter some of the people who are creating the proverbial logjam.
H�
Mar 25, 2016
sorka Supercharger openings in the US have practically stopped in the last few months compared to the previous rate:
supercharge.info
and then click on charts.�
Mar 25, 2016
David99 The cost for 'free' charging is built into the Model S. So there is a budget for building more stations as more cars are sold. And now get this: If the Model 3 sells 10 times as many as the Model S, they have 10 times the money to build more stations.
It's very simple math actually. I think it'll be fine.�
Mar 25, 2016
Eclectic Is the math that simple? I would assume that the built in cost for free supercharging in the current Model S/X is not the same as what will be charged/built in to the Model 3, in part because the Model 3 will be much less expensive and consumers may find a relatively large charge for charging to be a turn off. So my guess would be that if the Model 3 sells 10 times the number of Model S/X, Tesla will bring in some amount that is less than 10 times the money they currently bring in to build superchargers.
All of which will make next week's reveal more, er, revealing.�
Mar 25, 2016
David99 Good point. $2000 is a small amount for a $90-120k car. But it's a lot for a $35k car. At the same time, these $2000 for lifetime supercharging is actual a very good value. So I think many would be willing to pay it.�
Mar 25, 2016
calisnow I have four friends putting deposits down on Model 3's - each keeps cars a long time (10+ years) and puts a lot of miles on them. I think these friends would view $2,000 for lifetime energy as a good deal and would pay it.�
Mar 25, 2016
CHG-ON It is ironic that the Bay Area of CA has so few charging stalls. I mean, it is the heart of Tesla Country right now. Crazy.
The siting of the stations seems very odd to me. Why put one in a San Mateo mall? That just encourages locals charging, when I will bet that at least 50% of those shoppers live in single family homes, where they could charge. Yes, I could be way off. I thought the idea of SCs was to facilitate longer trips. I cannot think of one SC that is near a freeway on the Peninsula. The only one that I know of anywhere in the region is on the East Bay corridor at the factory, which they have thankfully expanded. But that doesn't help those coming up from Central CA after they leave Gilroy and need to take the west route, rather than the traffic trainwreck of the East Bay route.
Before they put in the Petaluma charger, I had to loop down and around San Jose so that I could top off at the factory in order to make it to Santa Rosa. And once I got there, I had to either charge at my sister's (yuk) 110 or search out a kind local gov't fleet lot that was open and would let me charge at L2.
I assume that they have people studying the usage needs. But I am not sure that they are meeting them here. Just look at the number of chargers in Europe and especially Norway. Their coverage is much better than CA. Is this an example of the "cobbler's kids needing new shoes" or what? Sorry for you young folks...!
Thankfully I can charge at home, or I would be screwed.�
Mar 25, 2016
SFOTurtle I think you could use a little refresher on SCs in the SF Bay Area! First, the San Mateo SC is not right in the middle of some big mall off the beaten path. It's maybe only 200 yards, perhaps less, and just a few seconds from 101. There is a Peets and a Whole Foods in this little mixed use area, but definitely not some big shopping mall that's hard to get in and out of. Definitely convenient if you're on 101 and need a quick charge. Second, the Mtn View SC is also just off 101, maybe only 250 yards and maybe 30 seconds from the freeway itself and easily accessible. Third, you're ignoring the Dublin SC at the 580/680 interchange. It is literally next to 580 with the freeway just a few feet away. Manteca is also in a convenient spot. So is Seaside. And now we have Ukiah and others planned for 101 northbound. I personally have never found it easier to get around the entire NorCal area using the SC network.�
Mar 25, 2016
bredi Cheaper home utility rates - why do rates keep going up? Are they a PUBLIC utility or a publicly shared corporate sponge? Seriously, what is a public utility anymore? public-hybrid, pre-historic failure is what they are.
The solution is simple. More charging stations.
Either at home, on the road or at parking stalls/destinations. Plugs. Plugs everywhere!
Tesla has the right strategy, they just need more funding to do it faster.
Solar, Wind
Solar, Wind
Solar, Wind
Not to be confused with solar - winds.
This really is about simple solutions. It just not may be profitable. And apparently, that is the only thing that matters.
(sarcasm, pessimism font?)�
Mar 25, 2016
Mike K Another thing to consider is that they'll have smaller batteries which means they'll be charging at a slower rate than the vast majority of Model S's. So more cars, charging slower.
With all due respect, stating how many times you've been at a supercharger in just two weeks of ownership is a bit silly. I charge at home 95% of the time but I rent a house and I can't put a 240 outlet in. 99% of the time this doesn't matter because I only drive 30 - 40 miles a day which means even at a slow rate of charge I'm generally ending the day with more miles than I started with but if we get back from a road trip I might pull in with 30 or 40 miles and then head to a local supercharger the next day to get some miles. This is not abuse.�
Mar 26, 2016
Candleflame if you even have onsite parking that is...�
Mar 26, 2016
BertL Personally, I believe SpC will have to be an option with M3. It's gonna be tough to eek out sufficient dollars in a $35K base price to pay for lifetime SpC use.
Let's also not forget, Elon has stated Tesla will turn a profit in 2016. Slowing the SpC build-out reduces cost and implementing only as many SpC as they MUST will improve Tesla's bottom line (no different than Tesla electing to not resolve long outstanding and acknowledged firmware bugs). Elon won't (or can't) go back on his profit statements to Wall Street without major consequences. Given SpC locations cannot be found, procured, permitted and built over-night, action is needed now to avoid increasing problems for all Tesla owners at M3 rollout in any volume -- assuming M3 stays on schedule and ships in any volume at first�
Mar 26, 2016
cman8 Although i feel for you guys, tesla doesnt sell you the car saying that you should use the supercharger network for daily use. They always push you towards home installation. I dont know how it becomes their problem that you cant install a home charger. maybe there will be some type of law as EV become more and more relevant where stall owners have the right to install an outlet.�
Mar 26, 2016
Xpress So many people are discounting the Chevy Bolt and saying the Model 3 has supercharger access which will make the Bolt a failure. Personally it won't matter to me as the replacement to my Volt will be a commuter car with only occasional longer distance trips using a plug-in SUV (with a roof rack) of some sort for the rest of my driving.
The reality of supercharger access on the Model 3 will hopefully soon be revealed but I think a lot of important and reality based points were brought up in this thread.�
Mar 26, 2016
CHG-ON Thanks. You are right about the San Mateo being near the 101. Sorry about that. My understanding is that the San Mateo charge, while near 101, is in the garage of a mall. Thanks for clarifying that. i haven't seen the Mt. View one. My bad. There is also Burlingame. But that's a good 10 min from the freeway. Sunnyvale is a bit of a hike also. I would love to see a charger on the 280/85 side, which is usually the quickest way to get up north quickly, due to the traffic on 101. Yes, The East Bay is well covered. I think the peninsula needs help.�
Mar 26, 2016
Gizmotoy I'm pretty sure there's no supercharger in Burlingame or Sunnyvale.�
Mar 26, 2016
bxr140 And that is still a short sighted and elitist perspective.
More teslas = more chargers, period. That benefits everyone on the system, AND also furthers Tesla's mission of mass ev adoption.
"Now that I got mine Jack, $&@# you" is an unfortunate, if not somewhat expected response from a few folks who bought a car only [currently] affordable for the affluent and assume they also bought into some level of exclusivity.�
Mar 26, 2016
jeffro01 Not only did I not say that, you keep associating my position with this conclusion which isn't correct or accurate at all. Stop putting words into people's mouths on this issue. I did not buy the car to be in some special exclusivity club, I bought the car because it's an awesome car, and for other reasons that are really none of your business.
Furthermore, more cars do not equal more chargers. I am not sure why you seem to be so sure that's the case but it simply just isn't at all. In fact, the current reality is quite the opposite. More cars are equaling consistent congestion at superchargers which Tesla is not building nearly fast enough to keep up with demand.
So again, if you can't charge at home\work, don't buy the car. I can't be any clearer or more consistent with this position than I am today.
Jeff�
Mar 26, 2016
CHG-ON The Service Centers have them. Good luck getting in!�
Mar 26, 2016
SFOTurtle Interesting, I had not heard that. I know the Service Centers have a number of HPWCs, but the SC must not be for public consumption. BTW, the Burlingame Service Center is literally right off 101. The back of the Service Center faces 101, and the exit off the freeway is maybe 1/4 mile south of the Service Center. I've used the HPWC there in a pinch with my 60 before the San Mateo Supercharger was opened.
Also one correction -- the San Mateo Supercharger is not tucked underground in a garage. I probably read the same post a long time ago suggesting as such. Nope, they're in the open air and about 150 yards from Whole Foods and Peets.�
Mar 26, 2016
Gizmotoy Me neither. I was just there on Monday and they had the usual HPWCs, but nothing that looked like a Supercharger bay. A year or two ago they mentioned they might get one inside the service center for testing. Maybe that happened?
Searching for Supercharger and Sunnyvale on Google comes up with this thread and not much else. Don't see any mention of it in the California Supercharger locations forum, either.�
Mar 27, 2016
CHG-ON Yes, Burlingame is right next to the 101. But I found that by the time I got through the lights and all, it seemed like a bit of hassle. Thanks for the clarification on San mateo. Sorry to all for the inaccuracy.
On centers having SCs, I think Burlingame has three right in front. Seaside has 4 right there. And I have to recant my comment about Sunnyvale having them because I can' visualize where they are.It seems like it would be an obvious choice to have Scs at all centers. They certainly have the infrastructure.
So...my original post was pretty darn inaccurate. Sorry about that to all.
But I still want one on the 280 corridor!�
Mar 27, 2016
trils0n Burlingame has 4 HPWCs out front for anyone to use. There is a supercharger inside the service area (go inside and look through the glass doors into the service area and you can see it -- for service only)
As to chargers being clogged in CA, the last few times I've been to Gilroy, San Mateo and Mountain View, I have been the only car there. Really depends on when you travel if they are crowded or not.�
Mar 27, 2016
sorka The point is there will be many folks who want to travel long distance in their electric car and the Model 3, for the same price as the Bolt, will give them that option. Even if I were buying an EV for local commuting, which do you think I'd choose if one could be driven across the country NOW vs the other one that CAN'T for the same price?�
Mar 27, 2016
Xpress "NOW" being the operative word.... as in 2016? ;-)�
Mar 27, 2016
McRat Car - Charger > Charger - Car�
Mar 27, 2016
CHG-ON Gilroy is great. Always empty.�
Mar 27, 2016
trils0n And when Gilroy was originally brought online (it was one of the first dozen Superchargers in the world) it had 6 stalls and was always full, and people complained. Now it has 10 stalls and is almost always empty.�
Mar 27, 2016
dennis Partly because of the expansion, and partly because of bringing other superchargers online, including Manteca and Mountain View.�
Mar 27, 2016
trils0n Yep. A pretty good example of Tesla's strategy. As sites get crowded, build new ones, and expand existing ones.�
Mar 27, 2016
Boatguy I don't know what Tesla's strategy is, or how much money they've allocated to build more superchargers or expand new ones. But the "Tragedy of the Commons" tell us that the SC's will increasingly be abused to the detriment of other owners.
I believe there should be an expectation that an owner will have their own means to charge their car and that the SC network is for "touring" away from home. That means a charger may be placed in a location which is "local" to many (e.g., a mall), but "on the road" for me, like L.A. since I live near S.F.
I think it would be perfectly reasonable for Tesla to implement a limitation on "local" charging. Something like your usage of chargers within 50 miles of your home is limited to 300kWh / year, and after that you are charged some outrageous rate for electricity. This would facilitate the situation where someone needs a charge half a dozen times a year for whatever reason in order to get home, but discourage abuse. The price of charging would have to be set so that it is not economically viable to pay at the SC rather than install a charger (or 14-50 outlet) at home.
Some will game the system by changing their address to somewhere away from their actual residence, but such a policy would probably be effective in reducing abuse to a tolerable level while having no negative impact on everyone else.�
Mar 28, 2016
BertL I too feel like owners of BEV including Tesla, must consider and have available home (work, or alternative pay-for) charging options available before taking delivery of their vehicles. For me, even though my MS comes with lifetime SpC use, Tesla provides the SpC network as a convenience to me -- allowing even further range and opening-up long range road trips. I waited to purchase my first BEV (my MS) until the SpC network was robust enough making the road trips I take a possibility. Now I only pray there is reasonable SpC availability while I'm on-the-road trying to make my destination ETA within reasonable margins of error -- even knowing trips always take longer now with a BEV because of intermediate charge time.
I had my 80A HPWC installed and operational before my MS arrived home, and will only use a local SpC (closest is 20+ miles one-way, 40+ the other) if my HPWC failed and I was in a tight spot. The HPWC cost and my ability to have the electrical circuit installed were a personal consideration before I ordered my MS. I feel for those renting in condos or apts where charging may be a greater challenge today, but OTOH, I have no expectation or feeling of entitlement that Tesla has a responsibility to provide my daily charging needs regardless of my circumstance, or that other owners should possibly be inconvenienced if I had made that choice. In that regard, I have a permanent card in my center console that I place on my dash with my cell phone number whenever I'm charging at a SpC and step away for a short while -- letting people know if I'm convenience or necessity charging, trying to not inconvenience other owners with a more important need -- but that's just old-fashioned me.
All that to say, while SpCs are limited in their numbers and the volume of Tesla that will want to use them is about to go crazy, I'm all for some reasonable limitations on local SpC use perhaps like @Boatguy suggests, to keep them open for other owners needing to charge in a more timely manner when truly away from home.�
Mar 28, 2016
bxr140 I'm simply repeating back to you the message you are sending. You're actively against people using your system, because you don't want to wait for them. You believe that if they can't charge at home, they don't deserve to be on your system. You believe you have more of a right to that supercharger pedestal then they.
That is elitist, that is exclusionary. That is contrary to Tesla's vision of mass EV adoption. I can't be any clearer or more consistent with this interpretation.
And that is a short sighted and incorrect analysis from someone wrapped up in the instant gratification of wanting a supercharger pedestal available to them whenever and wherever they need.
Why do you think they continue to build out the network? How do you think they choose sites? Where do you think the money comes from to expand?
You're just miffed that the answers to these questions are reactionary. The supercharger network is an evolving and changing entity, but Tesla is allowing the system's real time and ever developing utilization metrics to identify the holes instead of them just throwing money at new superchargers. I'm sorry that means you have to wait an extra 5 minutes once in a while, but take solace in the fact that you're supporting the greater good.
Never more has patience been a virtue...�
Mar 28, 2016
jeffro01 Yes, if you are a local who can't charge at home\work and you're taking up a spot at a full supercharger causing someone like myself to wait, that is a problem. Furthermore, I'm not the only one who sees it this way. Why is it I should have to wait to charge along my way while someone abuses their access by refusing to charge at home\work? You can call that elitist all you want if it makes you feel better. The reality is my time, like most everyone else's on this planet, is worth something. Trying to convince me that I should just sit there and wait, simply for the greater good, is a complete waist of your time as I find your position to be absurd.
Call me short sighted, again if it makes you feel better, but you are darn right I expect to have a spot when I pull up to a supercharger. That won't always be the case, at least currently, but if even a single person there is a local charging then I have every justification to be "miffed".
So again, if you can't charge at home\work then don't buy the car.
Jeff�
Mar 28, 2016
TexasEV There is a different between can't charge at home and won't charge at home.�
Mar 31, 2016
bxr140 Great. Now that we got that out of the way...
This still perplexes me to no end coming from anyone in North America. How do you figure those without home/work options are even a blip on your 'who's pissing me off today' Pareto chart?
The number of tesla owners without legitimate home/work charging solutions has got to be like 1 in 1000. Why would anyone identify those people as the source of the problem?�
Mar 31, 2016
4SUPER9 I�m sorry Jeff, but I also very much disagree. For me, I would not consider buying this car unless I had a clear and available method for me to charge it on a regular basis (i.e.: home). The same, obviously, goes for you. Neither of us, actually, any of us, wants to wait at a Supercharger.
Now, to say that someone who does not have this ability should not even consider purchasing this car, for the sole notion that he or she may be using a supercharger when someone else may want it, is, to put it bluntly, simply selfish. Other people have passion for BEV technology and want to be a part of the rEVolution. But, if they have a unique circumstance that prevents them from charging at home/work, let�s tell them to suck it. Not cool, man. Not cool.
Perhaps they won�t charge at a supercharger every time. If they are truly an enthusiast, they may seek out L2 charging at malls, city lots, and charge not just at SC's, but at hotels when they travel, etc. What if the supercharger they use is in a remote location, say Lone Pine, or slightly less remote, Mammoth. Those superchargers, and many others, are always empty. Would you be opposed to them grabbing a somewhat regular charge, where you or anyone else would never encounter them? Or, is that still unacceptable to you?
Again, I think it is wise, convenient, and best for everyone to obtain reliable charging at home/work. And, it is the responsible thing to do. But to ban them (in spirit, at least) from buying into this magnificent technology does come off as elitist.�
Mar 31, 2016
jeffro01 In a perfect world where people were thoughtful and courteous then I'd see your point, but that's not the world we live in. I have no problems with people disagreeing with me and I appreciate the way you worded your post. As I've said before, Tesla isn't going to prevent purchasing, nor should they. If superchargers were as ubiquitous as gas stations then this would be a completely useless conversation but as of now thats nowhere near the case...
If someone who can't charge at home\work but is close to a supercharger and decides to purchase the car anyhow, all I ask is they don't do it during peak times or leave their cars unattended so they can quickly open a spot for those of us who are passing through and don't have time to wait for a spot to open up. If that was the case, then I'd have little to complain about but so far that seems to be the exception and not the norm...
Jeff�
Mar 31, 2016
4SUPER9 Thank you, Jeff. This most recent comment seems a little less absolute than the prior ones. What you ask for is reasonable, and what I would hope for when locals use a SC for the regular use. Superchargers will not be ubiquitous for a very long time. Until then, I really hope that TM does something, ANYTHING, to help with the situation. Perhaps they are and we do not know it. They have attendants often at the two busiest stations in the country: FV and SJC. I wonder what their experience has been. Do they see an occasional person leaving their car there for hours at a time? If so, are they talking to them? At the very least, they need a time limit of something, even 2 hours (which is too much time). That would at least address the low-hanging fruit.
We have some time before the Model 3 arrives. Until then, there are more and more S's and X's on the road and our Southern California SC's are not getting any less congested than when they were completely full TWO YEARS AGO!!�
Mar 31, 2016
Gizmotoy I think I probably would have purchased if I only had 110V for daily charging and needed a boost once or twice a week at a Supercharger. I'm in an apartment and with nearly all homes in the area in the millions I'm not going to have my own place anytime soon.
I also think we'll see a flood of similarly-minded people, at least in this area, with the Model 3 launch. Whereas perhaps most people with a Model S could afford a house in the area, I suspect that math changes considerably with those interested in the Model 3. I suspect the Bay Area Superchargers will see an explosion in traffic.�
Apr 1, 2016
HHHH I guess now we know why.
I'm in the same boat. Only really have 110v as an option and that just went away.�
Apr 1, 2016
Uncle Paul Waiting for fuel is not unknown in the gasoline world.
At our local Costco it is not unusual for 50 or more cars to be waiting in line because the fuel is several cents less than other gas station. People are willing to wait 20-30 minutes to creep up to a hose (often on the wrong side of their gas tank). Saving the money is more important to them than going to a more expensive quick serve.
I also remember people queuing up for several hours during the fuel shortages. Fights broke out, and often by the time you got up to the pump they announced they had just run out of fuel.
Same during weather or wildfire emergencies. The stations are often closed down, and you drive around, hoping you find a working station before your tank runs dry.
No perfect system exists, but we often get complacent.
Elon mentioned during the reveal that they were expecting to double the amount of service centers, superchargers and destination chargers before the first of the model 3's were scheduled to be delivered to their new owners.
Expecting that there will never be a wait for an empty stall is unrealistic, but having an empty stall 99% of the time worldwide might be obtainable.
Full chargers could easily be eliminated by instituting "surge" pricing, where people taking up the last remaining stall would be charged $100 for their juice. Bet there would always be an empty stall : >)�
Jun 7, 2016
tbleakne I agree many urban SC are crowded much of the time, even as more urban locations open every month, but the situation is different for the many more rural SC locations that are key to the promise that Musk has made to enable a Tesla to go out of town almost anywhere in the 48 states.
I just returned from a 1400 mile Tesla road trip circumnavigating the California Sierras counterclockwise. I used SC in the following order: Inyokern, Lone Pine, Mammoth Lakes, Topaz Lake, Truckee on the way north, plus I received overnight charge at my motel in Bishop. Chester CA was my furtherest point north, staying with friends and charging from a 240V 6-15 outlet in my friends' wood shop.
On my return trip on the west side, I charged at Folsom, Buttonwillow, Mohave, and Rancho Cucamonga SC, plus overnight charge on HPWC at a B&B and a Best Western Plus.
During this trip I saw others Teslas at some SC as follows: Lone Pine: 3, Folsom: 3, Buttonwillow: 1, Rancho Cucamonga: 9. All the others: zero, even though I was charging at prime times in mid morning or afternoon. Rancho Cucamonga and Folsom are both urban. I have had similar charging experience on other road trips through CA, AZ, and NM. My conclusion: the majority of rural SC locations will not be saturated any time soon, even if the population of Teslas doubles or even triples.
Tejon Ranch is a very busy location, with only 6 stalls, and last Christmas week there it was the first time charging at many different SC locations that I had to wait in line at least 30 minutes. On this new trip I tried the new station at Buttonwillow, which has 10 stalls. I was quite surprised to find only one other Tesla there, despite charging in mid afternoon only 30 miles or so from Tejon Ranch. Conclusion: when your favorite SC location is crowded, try any new one nearby that opens up. It is clear that in many new locations Tesla is installing more stalls to stay ahead of the curve.�
Jun 7, 2016
tbleakne Trip Report:
I just returned from a 1400 mile Tesla road trip circumnavigating the California Sierras counterclockwise. I have previously done this circuit clockwise with some difficulty because of the lack of SC along Highway 395. With the recent opening of the Reno SC, 395 is now fully connected.
I used SC in the following order: Inyokern (brief, the mini-market is grim), Lone Pine (nice 15 minute movie at the film museum is just right), Mammoth Lakes, Topaz Lake, Truckee on the way north, plus I received overnight L1 charge at the Creekside Inn in Bishop, a nice motel recommended by another Tesla driver. The manager told me they are getting several HPWC installed end of June.
After charging at Mammoth Lakes I had plenty of charge to drive into Yosemite from Lee Vining as far as Olmsted Point, to see Half Dome from the back, and return to Lee Vining and continue up 395 to charge at Topaz Lake SC.
Tip for mountain travel: While I still had connectivity outside the park, I built a route to Olmsted point by locating it on a map, zooming the Tesla GPS to the same point on the road, marking the location with a hand touch, and recording the round-trip predicted usage back to Lee Vining. I zoomed the display back out to show the full route and moved the display slightly so it would not refresh. This way you can maintain your view of your progress on the map without connectivity inside the park.
From Topaz Lake SC I drove to Truckee to stay overnight with cousins. The next day I drove highway 89 to Chester CA, Lake Almanor, near Lassen NP was my furtherest point north, staying with friends and charging from a 240V 6-15 outlet in my friends' wood shop. Very green meadows along this route.
On my return trip on the west side I first drove down the Feather River gorge, which is very pretty, with lots of water, followed by a great lunch at the Sierra Nevada Brewery. I was going to get some QC at the brewery, but I didn't notice on Plugshare that they had a CCS fast charger, not CHAdeMO. I charged at Folsom SC, and drove to the McCaffrey House B&B on the Sonora Pass road. After charging overnight at their HPWD, I drove into Yosemite from the west, took pictures of the major falls in full glory flow, and drove up to the awesome view from Glacier Point.
Another tip: neither the Tesla GPS nor my iPad would recognize the Glacier Point road, so I could not get an accurate round-trip usage prediction, which led to some (unnecessary, as it turned out) range anxiety. So I set the route to my destination in Oakhurst for that night, and turned off the voice directions. That way as I drove the road to Glacier Point, I got continuous updates on how much range margin I had to reach Oakhurst. I was prepared to turn around if that margin dropped below 15%. I actually reached Oakhurst with about 25% margin.
On my way out of the Yosemite, I stopped to check out the charging at the very nice Tanaya Lodge. Only 2 L2 hoses, but the Operations Manager told me they are planning to install 8 HPWC !, hopefully by this Fall. I told him I was very impressed that they would make that kind of infrastructure commitment. Contrast that attitude with the lodge at Sequoia, that has no EV charging at all.
After dinner at the historic Wawona hotel, I charged that night on a HPWC at a Best Western Plus motel at Oakhurst. Oakhurst, at less than 3K ft altitude, was very warm.
On my last day I visited the Forestierre Underground Gardens in Fresno before charging at the new SC station at Buttonwillow. It has 10 stalls and a nice Starbucks, so I was surprised that there was only one other Tesla there, given that it is close to Tejon Ranch and they are always crowded. A steady 108F in the valley; fans going full blast in the car while I was charging. Despite not sharing a stall, I was getting only 50 kW of charge. I moved to another stall on a different charger and the power rose to 80 kW. Perhaps the first charger had become overheated from a previous charge session in the heat.
From Buttonwillow I avoided the San Fernando Valley by driving over Tehachapi to the Mohave SC. Along this nice divided highway I passed a car transport truck carrying a load of Tesla MS and MXs.
From Mohave I could reach home in Claremont driving the Pearblossom Highway. This used to be a bad road, and it still has bad spots, but they are actively widening it.
During this trip I saw others Teslas at SC as follows: Lone Pine: 3, Folsom: 3, Buttonwillow: 1, . All the others: zero, even though I was charging at prime times in mid morning or afternoon.
It was a good trip and I got to talk to a number of folks about Tesla.�
Jun 8, 2016
4SUPER9 This does not sound like a "good" trip, it sounds like an AMAZING trip! Thanks for the tips. Also, good to hear that Tenaya will have 8 HPWC's. I went to Tuolomne last summer. I don't think I will have time to make it this year.
Question: Did you really see 3 other people charging at Lone Pine? There are only 4 stalls at that location. I have charged there at least on 10 occasions, and the most I have ever seen is 1 other person charging. I am usually solo there.
Rural SC's will not get significantly congested for some time, but, like Tejon, will as more and more Teslas hit the road. When I travel to Mammoth, I typically only see a few Teslas up there. In a few years, there will be hundreds of Teslas up there every weekend, and the 4 stalls at Lone Pine will be quite full.
As far as superchargers getting clogged in California, which is the point of this thread, we have a serious problem in So. Cal, with for example, SJC being completely congested and over-crowded from its first day of opening, which was well over 2 year ago. with thousands of Teslas being added to the mix since. Fountain Valley is equally congested, and has been since it opened. Burbank has a similar problem, and is one that I will hopefully never need (in spite of our wonderful Trip planner recommending I stop there on the way to Mammoth with 250 miles of range still on board if I did). A fight broke out at the San Diego SC not too long ago. These urban areas are desperate for more SC's. I think if TM was to double the amount of stalls, we would still have a problem.�
Jun 8, 2016
trils0n Last time I was at the Mountain View supercharger (I had 2 miles when I pulled in and needed 6 or so to get home) there was a line, and a Tesla chaperone to facilitate the charging queue. Two of the people waiting in line ahead of me bragged they had home charging, and enough charge to make it home, but instead were choosing to wait for the Supercharger to get "free electricity". I told them that was a stupid waste of time, and the Tesla employee encouraged them to charge at home instead to save their time/money, but they weren't having any of it. I plugged in for 5 mins, and then left (cuz I only needed a few more miles), and they were astonished I would only get what I needed to get home. Mind blowing to me (and I noticed the Tesla guy do a face palm listening to the time-wasters).
I've heard from a few Tesla employees that they are upset at how owners behave at Mountain View (and that they track those that leave their car there for 2-4 hours while they go to work) and want to step up their Supercharger education/etiquette to help with the problem.
On the other note, I finished a 7k mile roadtrip a month ago, and outside of CA, I think I saw 2 or 3 other Teslas -- dozens of Supercharger stops and only saw 2 or 3 cars charging. (And all of my stops in CA, both leaving and returning, I never encountered a full, or even half full supercharger)�
Jun 8, 2016
ecarfan Wow that is good news. Currently they only have two J1772, if I remember correctly.
I hope Tenaya will let people charge who are not guests, even if they charge money for it that would be okay with me.�
Jun 8, 2016
mikeash Ridiculous. I wonder how they would react if you sat down with them and calculated exactly how little money they were saving and how much time they were wasting to save it.�
Jun 8, 2016
ecarfan It is strange how the owner of a $90K+ car will spend significant time sitting at a Supercharger to save around $5.�
Jun 8, 2016
Max* Now, now, it's not $5.
An average driver does 16,500 miles per year (according to some random website I found), at 330wh/mi, that's 5,445kwh. Assuming that a kwh in CA costs $0.17, that's $925/year!
That's big money, in 5 years of ownership you can save $5k (add in cost to install outlet).
I'm not advocating for this, just saying it's not $5.�
Jun 8, 2016
mikeash I assume $5 refers to a single session, and it's a decent approximation. At my rates, my car costs about $10 to fill to 100%. Figure you might get half a charge out of an opportunistic Supercharger session, and that's $5.
17 cents/kWh is a bit more than I pay, but that's the right ballpark.�
Jun 8, 2016
Az_Rael You guys are underestimating the cost of electricity here in CA. Here are some of my rate options:
And those tier 1 rates aren't enough to charge a car, they are barely enough to operate your house on a daily basis.
Now, if no one is home during the day, you can go on a time of use plan and only charge at night. But not everyone can do that.
So, it is more than $5 to charge�
Jun 8, 2016
Max* I wanted to put $0.25 as an average, but last time I did that, someone yelled at me that electricity isn't that expensive in CA.�
Jun 8, 2016
BertL Someone is almost always going to voice an opinion no matter what one says when you're trying to be expedient and just get the basic point across -- unless you put so many caveats around what you say that your posts become as long as mine generally are.�
Jun 8, 2016
Az_Rael Many people put up solar panels, or go on the TOU rates, which do let you charge your car cheaper. Most EV owners quickly move to one of those solutions after their first few eye watering power bills.
But for CA Tesla owners, they have an additional option: charge the car for free if they are close to a supercharger. If there was a supercharger in Palmdale, trust me, I would be very tempted to stop by on the way home from work to charge for free vs at home. Especially if it was somewhere I could grab dinner too.�
Jun 8, 2016
Max* Eh, I have a SpC not too far from home, and when I was seeing if I can get by on just 110V (my commute was very short), I was forced to use the SpC a few times, and it was always such a pain.�
Jun 8, 2016
iffatall It's not just the money you are saving. You are also spending something - your time.�
Jun 8, 2016
stoneskid All I know is that the SC in Paramus NJ is full almost every time I swing by, service manager told me they are doing over 4000 Charges a month. Life is gonna get really crunchy once those model 3s arrive.�
Jun 8, 2016
Zextraterrestrial in (real) NorCal my power was ~$0.25 average last month and we just hit summer pricing + I don't really charge at home ever so I would hit the top tier if I did and be well over $0.30/kWhr. And I added 440 watts of direct plugged solar panels for mid day base loads which drops use to ~20-60 watts on sunny afternoons
Scandalous power prices�
Jun 8, 2016
David99 One thing that would greatly help free up Superchargers is L2 chargers. If there are plenty of L2 stations at every mall, every work place, every parking lot, people would use those while they park their cars where they go anyways.�
Jun 8, 2016
Zextraterrestrial even just L1 at workplaces..would keep some PIP's happy that use the L2's�
Jun 8, 2016
Dukeybootie If you live in CA, own your house, and have enough cash on hand to purchase solar panels, there is really no reason not to do so. I drive my 85D 100 miles daily for work and have racked up 16,000 miles since 10/2015. My solar panels went online 11/2015 and since then I have accumulated over $500 of credit with the electric company despite my high mileage, thanks to TOU rates. So I don't pay anything for fuel/electricity, aside for a $10 monthly flat fee to be connected to the grid. With the 30% tax credit and a $5000/year gas bill before I got the Tesla, the panels will pay for themselves in short order.
I still make stops at the supercharger near work when I am on call and can't go home, just to get out of the hospital for a bit. It has never been full, but if it gets crowded in the future then I will simply stop going. As others have said, it's not worth the time -- especially when I can charge for essentially free at home anyway. Thought I would add another data point for public discussion.�
Jun 8, 2016
siucity Sadly, some people don't value their time.�
Jun 8, 2016
No2DinosaurFuel Actually for us SoCal people, the $0.17 is only the Energy cost at the lowest tiers. The delivery cost can easily double that price. So i would estimate at least $0.30/KWh if you really want to be accurate. Also average annual mileage for petrol cars is 12,000 miles. I would venture the 16,500 miles per year average is for TESLA driver! LOL.
Base on your KWh numbers, it's closer to $1600 a year.�
Jun 8, 2016
ecarfan And for that $925/year, you will spend many hours sitting at a Supercharger that you would not spend if you charged at home. You are basically valuing your time at a few dollars an hour. Now if you are retired and are happy to sit for hour and save a few bucks then I suppose that makes sense, until you consider that the Superchargers are for long distance travel and you are blocking long distance travelers from charging and...we've had this conversation before in multiple threads.�
Jun 8, 2016
calisnow Southern California Edison has a dedicated EV option at only $0.11 / kwhr - you get a separate account for the EV charger in your garage. That's the route I'm going.�
Jun 8, 2016
sorka It's a national park policy. Any EV charger is available to any visitor regardless of what establishment it is at.�
Jun 8, 2016
gotz2ride Unless....people stop using them as daily commute chargers. If they were to use them as intended and only use them while traveling cross country or long trips there would be almost no congestion.�
Jun 8, 2016
sorka What Tier 1 rate? Anyone who has an EV will be on EV-A or EV-B which is 11 cents off peak as much as you like. My PG&E bill is $100 / month lower than it used to be after getting the Tesla yet I use 3x as much electricity.
Why can't everyone charge at during off peak hours when their car is at home all night????�
Jun 8, 2016
David99 Regarding the rates. Yes at night I can charge for $0.10 per kWh. But that's just at night. Many times we need to charge during the day and that's when the ToU rates actually really suck. In the afternoon (peak time) you pay $0.49 per kWh. That makes a 30 min Supercharger stop worth $22.�
Jun 8, 2016
sorka Select profile "Work while sitting in car". Steering wheel goes all the way forward. Seat goes all the way back. Lots of room for my laptop.�
Jun 8, 2016
sorka I like EV-A better. It gets you 11 cents off peak for your entire house.�
Jun 8, 2016
sorka Totally true.�
Jun 8, 2016
calisnow Yep EV-A is simple and easy - except I am in and out of the house all day so time of use doesn't work for me.�
Jun 8, 2016
mkspeedr I have used superchargers in Mt View and Fremont the last several weekends. I drove 225+ miles a few days (I love driving it).
The superchargers were 50%-60% full - one interesting point - 50% of the cars charging were new without license plates.
That is a good sign.�
Jun 8, 2016
Az_Rael THIS. I don't care about L2 at work, that means I still have to go move my car when it's done charging. But a whole bank of L1 plugs, that would be great. Then I could leave my car for my entire 10 hour workday and never worry about moving it. And I would still get very close to enough charge for my commute even at L1 speeds.
Same with airports.�
Jun 8, 2016
Az_Rael Except us poor sod's down here in SoCal. To use the EV rates on SCE, you have to have a separate meter. I looked into it, it was going to cost at least $2000 to do that.
And some people work nights (me). Or have family at home during the day. So TOU rates don't work for everyone.
I would put solar up, but we are expecting to move for work in a year or two, so no point in making the investment as it wouldn't pay off before we sell the house.�
Jun 8, 2016
cpa This. Fresno is not as hot as Palmdale, but it still gets pretty gosh darn hot from mid-May through mid-September. We have a 4400-watt solar installation on our roof that is about 85% efficient because of some stately trees on our lot along the western edge. So, late afternoon shade eclipses some of the photons. TOU makes no financial sense--our usage from 2PM to 8PM is about double what we generate. And the surplus that we generate is always partial-peak.
We too looked into a dedicated EV meter for the Tesla. Our fee was slightly more than $2,500 without considering if PG&E had to tweak their delivery into our home.
As it is with us now, we always stay in tier 1. Now that the monthly minimum is roughly $10, our NEM true up will be zero. $120/year for electricity is fine with us.�
Jun 8, 2016
TaoJones Amazing that people still think SCs are solely for distance. Tesla committed to DENSITY as well as to DISTANCE 2 years ago, yet threads like this keep popping up along with the exclusionary "if you don't have a garage don't buy a Tesla" and "those darned locals" silliness.
In areas of density, Tesla has shown their commitment - when I bought in late 2014 there was 1 SC in LA County. 6 weeks later there were 3 and they keep coming.
If you travel through an area of density, be prepared to share chargers with local commuters and livery.
The real problem is not the rare local who's clueless enough to use an SC instead of their garage. Remember that the non-garaged are welcome to use SCs unless and until they can get charging at home or work. Municipalities are already starting to incentivize this finally. Just a matter of time.
Meanwhile, here's something we can all work on - eliminating ICEing by our own. Nothing will turn an 8-stall SC into a 2-stall SC than an owner of any kind being late to exit the stall.
And that, folks, is the #1 problem I see in SoCal. Not "locals" who might charge 2-3x/week at most. Not even livery since they're in and out because time is money. It's the clueless owner who meanders off to have a 90-minute dinner during a 40-minute charge. It makes a difference.
As for traditional ICEing, no parking signs, municipal fines and a tow contract solves that and I see more of that correct signage all over the country this year than last.
Vacate the stall when done, folks, or all the elitist handwringing persecution of locals and the non-garaged won't help you.
Also, smart non-garaged locals don't use SCs during peak times. Gonna have to blame the tourists for that congestion.�
Jun 9, 2016
Max* I'll meet you half way, 13,500 - Average Annual Miles per Driver by Age Group
I took my number from the "Male" column originally, which is 16,500.�
Jun 9, 2016
Max* Anyways, I'm not saying it's a good idea -- it's much easier to charge at home, and not waste your time.
All I'm saying is that it's not $5 we're talking about. And even if it is $5/day, that's still a decent chunk of change for the lifetime of the car.�
Jun 9, 2016
taldric I charge exclusively at home, only using SuperChargers when I'm on distance trips. Looking at my power bill, in the month of May my bill is $1.30/day higher than it was a year ago (before I had the Tesla). There are plenty of things that might have changed my bill from last year, both positive and negative, but the largest was the addition of the Tesla.
My time is worth more than $1.30 to charge for 30 minutes at a SC, and it's worth more than $5. Thanks, but I'll keep charging at home.
Now, I do live in the Seattle area and our electricity is only $0.096 for the first 248 kWh and then $0.116 after that. And I probably don't drive as much as some people (I general only use 10-20% of my 85D per day). But that's just another data point. Your mileage will vary depending on where you live, how you drive, how much you value your time, etc.�
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