Apr 5, 2015
Matias Current blind spot warning is not good, because you are not looking at speedometer when doing line change. You are looking at the side mirror. Other manufacturers have put warning either to a mirror or to A-pillar.
I believe Tesla will do the same.
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Apr 5, 2015
dirkhh I certainly think that this will be necessary. It will also cause a major outcry by the existing owners
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Apr 5, 2015
Riprazor I do not need them to change how it notifies me, I just need it to work reliably. I find that it misses about 25% of the cars that enter my blind spot and is pretty useless at them moment.�
Apr 5, 2015
jerry33 If they were going to change it to any other location, the place to put it would be the rear camera as that's what you check before the head check.�
Apr 5, 2015
Stoneymonster I think the number of people using the rear camera all the time is small. Makes me motion sick.
Also, I'd bet heavily they don't change the hardware for this. There are fine ways of improving the system without HW changes (gate off turn signal, more apparant indicators on the dash that can be seen in peripheral vision, different audio cues). I also don't particularly want flashing lights near the mirrors, especially if they aren't gating off the turn signal. It's distracting and annoying.�
Apr 5, 2015
jerry33 Maybe we need a poll�
Apr 5, 2015
Stoneymonster I could be wrong�
Apr 5, 2015
jerry33 And maybe you're right. Be interesting to find out. However, I don't recall reading any other posts about the camera causing motion sickness.�
Apr 5, 2015
Riprazor Using the rear cam while driving makes me motion sick too. I also do not want to give up the screen real-estate since I use half for NAV and half for my music selection. Not to mention, the blind spot hardware should work such that it is not necessary to use some other mechanism or it is pointless to even have it in the car.�
Apr 5, 2015
AlMc I do think putting it in the mirrors would be better but TM is trying to do away with mirrors. However, I sent TM a note about some suggestions for improvements (like they listen to me :biggrin
Moving forward. IF TM replaces side mirrors with cameras (maybe even a retrofit...OK, I'm dreaming) then the small camera stalk could have a red warning indicator?�
Apr 5, 2015
beeeerock Perhaps I'm just tuned to audible indicators, but I think a warning tone when the turn signal indicates a lane change is being contemplated would be as useful, or more useful, than a visible light around the mirror.
I've driven cars with the lights and find they aren't really useful unless you train yourself to look for them. The 2015 Audi in our fleet lets you adjust the brightness of the orange lights in the inside of the rearview mirror, but even then it took me some time to get used to them... and most importantly - NOTICE them!! In bright light, with all the stuff going on around you, they just blend in. For me a sharp audible indicator would be more useful... especially if it comes in advance of the audible indicator (horn) of the driver you're about to hit! (followed thereafter by the visible indicator of a single finger...)�
Apr 5, 2015
AmpedRealtor How about vibrating the right and left side of the seat in addition to providing an audible and visual alert? Ford uses vibrational alerts in the Tahoe and they work very well. Also, Tesla needs to think of deaf and hard-of-hearing drivers. My spouse is deaf and would never hear an alert of any kind. He would also have to be looking at the screen in order to see many alerts, but our eyes are usually on the road and not the screens. I sent the suggestion for vibration alerts to Tesla, but nobody replied. Perhaps the needs of the deaf and the hard-of-hearing are not a priority for them.�
Apr 5, 2015
Stoneymonster Good point, and I like the vibrational feedback idea, maybe they could extend the steering wheel vibration somehow. As for your suggestions to Tesla, to whom did you send them? I find that unless you have a way to get beyond the first level folks at companies, suggestions go nowhere. It's like submitted a resume directly to HR�
Apr 5, 2015
SW2Fiddler I'm another "no." It's queasy-making, and would be another touch on the panel (or full-time loss of valuable Nav map/directions area).
(Possible exception is when the rear mirror is blocked by cargo)�
Apr 5, 2015
MikeBur Same here. I can drive with rear camera on for prolonged (> 2 mins or so) periods of time.
i find it interesting what they might do with the X here. It would be simple* to have rear view mirror be the only rear view is they had an motored adjustment for automagically changing of rear camera and being less fish-eyed.
*simple from a technology perspective, less from a regulatory compliance standpoint...�
Apr 5, 2015
NoMoGas Will we ever be happy with our cars?�
Apr 5, 2015
MikeBur I'm not a fan of the current setup for sure, though I'm not convinced it is necessary to change hardware here to be a lot more aware of our blind spots. I really like the fw7.0 preview as it could give you a constant "God view" of the location of vehicles and that would improve my situational awareness at all time, not just when changing lanes. I think we might all be judging this current version little prematurely of the finished ability - self-included ;-)�
Apr 5, 2015
CSFTN So long as there are side mirrors, I am going to use them. If the point of blind spot warning is to warn you of something which may be in a blind spot, then the warning should include a visual indicator near the side view mirrors. Its simple logic for those of us who actually use our mirrors. It, and 360 degree view, are 2 of the things I love about my previous car setup. I hope Tesla either includes, or moots, these 2 features on the Model S, soon.�
Apr 5, 2015
green1 The only way to eliminate the blind spot its too replace the mirrors with convex, unfortunately despite being much safer, it's also illegal in most jurisdictions (Japan at least gets this one right! )
Any other adjustment, especially the oft touted solution of moving the mirrors further out, is extremely dangerous as it doesn't eliminate the blind spots, it just moves them to a spot that's even harder to see (further back and closer in to the car)
Without a change of legislation, the "traditional" way of seeing the mirrors, combined with proper shoulder checking is the safest way to drive. I also advocate stick on convex mirrors as a good partial solution.
As for blind spot warnings from tesla, I think the inside of the A pillar is likely the best spot, after watching a video of the current ones, they're not a very good implementation.�
Apr 5, 2015
dirkhh We'll agree to disagree then. The notification in the dash is utterly and completely useless to me.�
Apr 5, 2015
richrootes I have no use for blind spot monitoring. What would be nice - and any UK owners out there might be able to help me out here - is a Convex Driver's Door Mirror (or near side over there)
I don't understand why you have to have a plain mirror on one side, and a convex - with the obligatory idiot warning of course - on the other.
I retrofitted Convex mirrors on my last two cars (Audis) and as mentioned in the posts above - properly adjusted mirrors let you see all you need to
Happy Easter!�
Apr 5, 2015
green1 While I agree that this is not an ideal situation, I'm sure you could train yourself to use the dash sensors, so reliability is always the most important part (don't bother to train yourself if it isn't going to be reliable enough to trust. )
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if you have added convex, then good on you. If you have not, there is no adjustment possible that will eliminate a blind spot, only move it to a spot even harder to see by shoulder checking (and worse yet, give a false sense of security that is likely to convince you that shoulder checking isn't needed and probably cause a collision some time)
As for the legally mandated "convex"on the passenger side, it's actually the worst of both worlds, not convex enough to be useful, but just convex enough to distort your sense of distance (hence the ridiculous warnings)
I would much prefer the Japanese methods with true convex on both sides (I've had those on both of my last 2 vehicles and they really do compelling eliminate blind spots, it's too bad FMVSS and CMVSS won't catch up to the developed world in motor vehicle safety standards.�
Apr 5, 2015
dirkhh Sorry - this is what I just don't get. Really, I should train myself to look in an unintuitive spot for a critical warning? And then when I drive a different car I look at the dash before changing lanes to do... what?
Wait - WHAT?
This is a car. It needs to drive like a car and behave like a car and someone needs to be able to drive it without having to be "retrained".�
Apr 5, 2015
gpetti There are a number of good ideas here - all would work for me without needing the lights on the side mirrors.
I had an unexpected demonstration of how weak the current offering is.
I actually did a blind spot check but unfortunately did a sloppy one with out really taking in that I hadn't seen much more than the pillar owing to the seat being in a different position than normal. The car was not visible in the rear view or side mirror and I didn't have the rear camera active. I signaled to lane change and started to make the change. It didn't occur to me to look for the blind spot indicator and I certainly didn't notice it. As I was making the change, I glimpsed the vehicle in the blind spot and swerved back - just as they honked the horn too. That is when the audible alert sounded and then I saw the double red lines. Normally I make a point of maintaining situational awareness so this is a very rare occurrence and thus was all the more unexpected. This is exactly the type of situation where I would like the warning to kick in as a back up for occasions where my concentration has lapsed somehow.
I expect that the new interface will help with the visuals but the audible and vibration suggestions seem very helpful. With the current visual, it would also be better (IMO) if the lines were at the top left and top right, and colored red, that would be a start.�
Apr 5, 2015
fadkar I've tried driving with the mirrors adjusted the "right" way but I just couldn't get used to it! Since they are facing more outwards than the "wrong" way, you can also see cars that are 2 lanes away from you. That makes it very confusing, especially at night because it can get tricky to tell if that car is one lane over or two.�
Apr 5, 2015
zzzzdoc I couldn't agree more. I was about to post the same thing. I like just looking at the rear view camera before changing lanes. I got used to this in my Lambo (whose blind spots were enormous). One look, dual sets of information, safe lane change.
They also need to be less subtle. The left or right side of the rear view camera with a vertical line or car symbol that's white, or turns to red if you're moving towards it would be far better than the present implementation.
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Well, count me as one of those who uses it all the time. I have on several cars, and couldn't live without it. I consider it one of the most important safety features in a car.�
Apr 5, 2015
trils0n After over 2 years of owning the Model S, the always on rear camera is one of my favorite, and essential features. I call it my fourth mirror. I've added it to my standard mirror scan: Left Mirror-> Center Mirror-> Right Mirror-> Screen, then start over, nice loop every few seconds to keep track of cars around me. Besides the throttle response/one pedal driving, the rear camera is the feature I miss most when driving other cars.
I don't have autopilot hardware on my car, but the dash check for blind spot might be an extra step in my routine. I might be able to integrate it, but mirror would probably be the ideal location. Although if they add the mirror, no reason to remove it from the dash, if you happen to check your speedometer frequently it would be useful to have some extra at-a-glance info.�
Apr 5, 2015
OrlandoKen I have a Chayenne that has light in mirror. i too vote for audible.�
Apr 5, 2015
Scotty I agree that what's currently deployed doesn't measure up. The thin white arc is barely noticeable, and checking my mirrors and looking over my shoulder takes my eyes off the road long enough; I then need to look down and view the dash to see if the white arc is lit? Furthermore, if the nav screen is up on the left, and is showing the white background, forget about seeing the white arc.
I also realize that my blind spot might be hiding a rapidly accelerating and lane-changing vehicle. I might have done that myself a few times, in my MS. I also am concerned that other drivers might not appreciate the accelerating capabilities of the MS, and might miss me as I change lanes and accelerate into their blind spot (But that's a different issue).
How about a much bigger BRIGHT RED flashing turn signal icon (maybe 3 or 4 times the normal size icon) that would change from normal when the blind spot warning is triggered.
An audible, adjustable volume chime would also help. I would prefer it only work in conjunction with the turn signal switch activation, as I do see the white arc activate as vehicles are in the blind spot, but it only really affects me if I'm going to change lanes; any other time tends to be crying wolf.�
Apr 5, 2015
billarnett I, on the other hand, would rather the opposite. I want the information before I start signaling. The last thing I want to do is
alarm the other driver just because I haven't yet finished checking. The signal means an INTENT to turn not a REQUEST. But I do think I would prefer the indicator to be on the outside mirrors or the A pillars. OTOH, I don't think we should get to worked up about this as it will no doubt change radically with 7.0. What we are seeing now is just a temporary hack. I hope�
Apr 6, 2015
NoMoGas agree to disagree. Maybe it's the IFR pilot in me but I trust the technology. The danger is in looking over the shoulder straight into a rear pillar, and the car in front stopping. If mirrors are set properly and sonar working you barely need to move your head.
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lol I get it. that is why people choose to place them where they can see their own car as visual reference (the wrong way). Just get used to looking at your instrument panel first seeing the lane is clear signal, check your mirror and go. In order for them to not be on your sensor that have to be just about parallel to your passenger side door. So even the mirror in the wrong position would work just fine now. It's a different kind of car and we have to get used to driving in a completely different way�
Apr 6, 2015
jerry33 On my Tesla, the side mirrors don't angle out far enough to adjust them properly. The camera has a much better view.�
Apr 6, 2015
green1 No, i don't agree to disagree. I will never agree to disagree when people are advocating a dangerous solution. This isn't about trusting technology, this is about a false sense of security when you create a new, and very difficult to check blind spot, and then refuse to check it because you have that false sense of security and claim your new blind slot doesn't exist.
There is a very good reason that no driver's manual anywhere advocates for this dangerous solution, it is simply not safe, and it causes collisions and complacency.
Let me try this another way, for your "IFR Pilot" comment about technology. Your radar has a gaping hole in it's coverage, you however can adjust where that hole is. There is no way to eliminate it, only to choose where the hole is. You can choose to place the coverage hole in a location that you can easily see by turning your head and looking out the window, or you can position the coverage hole such that you'd have to turn your head almost all the way around and glue your face to the side window to see the missing spot.
The size of your blind spot doesn't change, only the location.
Personally, I want my blind spot somewhere I can easily check with my eyes. You however are advocating NEVER CHECKING IT! This is irresponsible, and highly dangerous. This gets people KILLED, especially pedestrians, cyclists, motorcyclists, those who have the least protection against your vehicle.�
Apr 6, 2015
dirkhh Completely agree. IFR works because ATC ensures proper separation. Not looking over your shoulder will get you serious culpability in most jurisdictions. And given how often the arcs are wrong on my car I want to make sure I drive no where near people who think they are flying a plane instead of driving a car.
And sorry. If Tesla suddenly decides that we have to learn how to drive this car because safety critical features work very differently from what drivers are used to, then they already have lost. All it takes is a fatal accident where the car is blamed. Insurance rate goes through the roof, people stop buying, bye bye Tesla.�
Apr 6, 2015
mknox I suppose I could get used to it, but my issue with the rear camera is that the view is way too much of a fish-eye view for normal driving. I can have a car behind me so close that I can't see its headlights in my rear view mirror, but on the camera it looks like it's really far back. If I relied on it for lane changing and such, I fear I would be cutting in way too close based on how far the other car looks on the camera. The wide angle view is great, however, for inching back into tight parking spots.�
Apr 6, 2015
beeeerock I think you're right. If the car is going to self-drive, I don't think it's going to follow a semi up the hill in the slow lane because it doesn't know how to change lanes. Blind spot is likely the most valuable sensor feature for real-world driving at speeds where mistakes are life-altering. Great that you can see how many cm's before you impact the garage wall, but blind spot really counts. Given all the other technologies in use, I can't believe this feature won't be given more consideration... likely with a variety of driver-selectable options varying from 'do nothing', all the way to 'prevent lane change'... with various bells and whistles in between.�
Apr 6, 2015
Doug_G I use it all the time. No one in this town ever lets you merge into their lane. When you turn on your blinker the guy behind you in the lane always floors the accelerator. So I use it all the time when merging.�
Apr 6, 2015
Stoneymonster I probably could get used to it, but I really don't like visual distractions in my peripheral vision, aside from the motion sickness. Maybe if it were smaller
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I was thinking about that. In an ideal world, where the sensor was foolproof (and no sensor is foolproof), is the steering totally fly-by-wire such that it could prevent you from turning the wheel? I kinda doubt it...�
Apr 6, 2015
dirkhh I never use it. Won't claim it makes me motion sick, but it's definitely distracting and I do drive other cars so re-training myself for this wouldn't be smart.
And I hate driving in cities where everyone's an a** - here in Portland people generally let you merge. And those few who don't... well they tend to be stunned how quickly this big red car can move forward�
Apr 6, 2015
beeeerock I was thinking more in terms of the lane assist function I was playing with in the Audi a few weekends ago. With the TACC engaged, it actually exhibits the basics of self-drive... but knows if it hasn't received input from the driver and complains!
The Lane Assist watches the lane lines and keeps the car running in the centre. If you approach a lane edge, say with the intent to change lanes, and you haven't engaged the turn signal, it provides some resistance and vibration in the steering wheel. You can easily push through it, but you'd have to be really out of it to not recognize it was telling you something.
I don't know if the Blind Spot system tied into the steering as well, but it does turn on an amber light on the mirror edge. I wasn't going to test it THAT far...�
Apr 6, 2015
green1 There's enough control that it can steer for you, but I believe (and hope!) that it's not strong enough to override you if you know better than it does. With the current level of sophistication of self drive systems, we are still a very long way away from a car that should be able to override a human who is doing something on purpose. (though lots of warnings are a good thing!)
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I believe Tesla has indicated that this is the plan, if you try to change lanes despite the white arc, I think it's supposed to change to a red arc and vibrate the steering wheel. Not enough to prevent you from doing it (sometimes you need to do things that the sensors don't understand) but enough to know that it's trying to tell you something.�
Apr 6, 2015
Stoneymonster Totally agree, and I can come up with lots of scenarios where overriding the blind-spot warning (even if it was correct!) would be necessary. Was mostly wondering from a technical point of view whether it could be done.�
Apr 6, 2015
dsm363 How long did you give it? It might take a few weeks but once you get used to not seeing the side of the car it is much better.�
Apr 6, 2015
green1 If by better you mean dangerous, hazardous, and deadly....
Just because you can't see your blind spot by turning your head anymore doesn't mean it magically vanished, you've just moved it to somewhere harder to see.�
Apr 6, 2015
jerry33 You still turn your head, you just look at the camera first.�
Apr 6, 2015
brucet999 I can't agree with you there. I drive a work van with big side mirrors and no back windows so no center rear view at all; still had to install small convex mirrors to enhance blind spot vision. My Lexus RX350 has fairly large side mirrors that show a smaller field of vision, but nevertheless do a pretty good job showing blind spots.
Twice recently I have rented cars with lower body style and mirrors designed by stylists instead of engineers. Both were too small, especially in the upper-outside quadrant, and I missed seeing cars overtaking me, once as I was about to pull out from parallel parking spot and once when I had to change lanes to avoid a stopping car in the right lane. Tesla mirrors are better than those rental cars but display noticeably less field of vision than even the RX350�
Apr 6, 2015
green1 Except that in your proposed setup turning your head is no longer enough because your blind spot is further back and closer to your car making it MUCH harder to see.
Best to leave your mirrors adjusted the way every driving school and every driver's text recommends and shoulder check the normal way.�
Apr 7, 2015
iKhalid I'm not sure why Tesla reinvents the wheel on things that are properly done by other manufacturers. I understand the whole concept of cars needed to be redefined and it makes sense and that's why I bought a Tesla myself, but there are simple stuff that took years of experience and could've been used the way they are.
Here are a few examples that Tesla went with and then reverted/will be reverting back to the way other manufacturers do them:
1. The topic you're discussing here: the position of the blind spot warning.
2. The seats. Both front and rear. The headrests (the rear ones), the cheap plastic in the back of the front seats, etc.
3. Cup holders. No centre console.
4. Rear seat belt buckle. I had to buy an extender from my kids booster.
5. Sun visors.
6. Front air defroster.
and I'm sure I'm forgetting a few other things...�
Apr 9, 2015
mknox I think it's because Tesla wanted to lock down the hardware and offer upgrades and improvements through software as much as possible. As such, the blind spot warnings show up on the dash.�
Apr 9, 2015
RDoc If you adjust it properly the blind spot is far too small for a car or even a motorcycle to occupy. I've done it this way for decades.�
Apr 9, 2015
green1 And I'm sorry, you've been wrong for decades. What you are doing is dangerous. A motorcycle, a bicycle, or a pedestrian, can definitely fit in your new blind spot. Either that or you're adding convex mirrors, it's one or the other.�
Apr 9, 2015
brkaus I'm missing something, sorry. How is this worse? As long as overlap exists, and one still does the appropriate look.
http://media.caranddriver.com/images/media/51/cleanup-blindspots-photo-519796-s-original.jpg�
Apr 9, 2015
green1 I love how those pictures always use animations and not reality, they also conveniently never show the places that are no longer covered (and don't place things in those spots)
Show me a driving school or government publication that suggests this method, or show me research that recommends it. There is none, and there's a very good reason for that, because it's simply DANGEROUS to do it.�
Apr 9, 2015
LetsGoFast Actually, there was a definitive research paper by the Society of Automotive Engineers that suggested it in 1995 that pretty much settled the question so clearly that I don't think there has ever been other research into the question. It has never been discredited and there are absolutely driving schools that teach it and insurance companies that recommend it. You are right that there are still blind spots, but they are substantially reduced compared to the "standard" method.
I do agree with you that convex mirrors would be a better solution, although I prefer aspheric mirrors like Saab had on the 9-5 and 9-3.�
Apr 9, 2015
green1 I'm not even going to discuss this further. You are risking peoples lives, and nothing I can say will bring you out of your fantasy world that blind spots can magically be made to vanish.
Bottom line. Shoulder check, the consequences otherwise are on your conscience (and your insurance, and your criminal record)�
Apr 10, 2015
Andyw2100 I think you don't want to discuss it further because LetsGoFast just provided proof that what you've been saying is wrong, and you can provide nothing other than your own repetitive assertions of being right. Personally I think I'd tend to believe a study done by The Society of Automotive Engineers over someone's personal opinion, no matter how loudly or frequently he yells it at me, but then again, that's just me.
And just to counter the argument that you are so fond of making about how dangerous it is not to shoulder check, and how people are going to get killed, etc., what happens if in the second or two while you're shoulder checking something jumps out in front of your car, or a car in front of you stops short? Shoulder checking is not without danger too, as it requires, by definition, not looking in the direction your vehicle is travelling.
I also don't want to debate this because I've already decided that I'll choose to trust the study done by The Society of Automotive Engineers, what my experience has been using my mirrors adjusted that way, and basic common sense.
Edit: Here's a thread with the result of shoulder checking--http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/43510-The-dream-comes-crashing-down
Some pictures in this post: The dream comes crashing down - Page 4
Quote from the unfortunate OP:
�
Apr 19, 2015
Elshout Blind Spot Detection Needs Drastic Improvement
Completely agree that the detector should show up either yellow or orange and much bigger. If one is using navigation, the map to the left of the speedometer completely obliterates the white arc. On my P85D, about 50% of the time I get no indication on the left side. Think yellow or orange arrows something like the turn signal indicators and located under these would be much better. This is the worst blind spot detector of any car I have driven. My wife's new Ford Fusion Hybrid is an order of magnitude better at 1/3 the cost of the P85D.�
Apr 19, 2015
bhzmark Adjust your mirrors out properly to show the blind spot. Of course engineers will tell you that but you shldnt need engineers. It is just common sense. My insurance company amica sent a flyer that said adjust your mirrors out to show the blind spot. I thought yes of course.. and they should know since they pay the claims when people's mirrors show half of their car and just a duplicate of the rear view mirrors. Makes no sense to do that.
And for that reason it wld be more helpful for the blind spot warnings to be on mirror.�
Apr 19, 2015
Brightonuk These threads always get off track.... this one people who know better tout "position your mirrors" the issue is not how you position your mirrors but the Blind Spot Detection on the model S and how it can be improved.
That said and back to the point I understand that cars built after August 2012 may have a blind spot harness, I (with the help of a forum member) located my park assist harness installed the Tesla sensors and had Tesla activate it .
I think that the blind spot wiring harness is also in that bundle of unused connections, can anyone confirm this? if so will it be it compatible with the current blind spot software?�
Apr 19, 2015
bhzmark Since you should check your mirrors the blind spot hardware shld have indicators in the mirrors. Sorry if you didn't understand that from the last sentence in the post above. Also reminders to adjust mirrors in any discussion of blind spot detection is a worthy psa�
Apr 19, 2015
Danal Here is the BSGE method, straight from a Government Server URL. In fact, the National Highway and Traffic Safety Administration: http://www.nhtsa.gov/staticfiles/nti/teen-drivers/pdf/blindzoneglaremirrormethod.pdf�
Apr 20, 2015
AmpedRealtor Here's a great instructional video... you don't even have to move your head and a 16 year old can do it!
�
Apr 20, 2015
Rockster It does me. I initially thought I'd love having the rear camera on all the time. No way. Something about simultaneously seeing both the forward motion of the windshield and the rearward motion of the video display makes me nauseated really fast. It's strange, though, that the sliver of rearview mirror has never done that to me.�
Apr 20, 2015
Danal
I think it is all in what you are used to. Rear camera freaked me out at first. In a similar fashion, I have a Motor Home that has a rear-view-mirror shaped display that is actually driven by a camera. That thing also bothered me at first.
Stick with it a little, and your brain accommodates fairly quickly.�
Apr 20, 2015
brianman I think you're talking about different things. I got the impression Rockstar was talking about something physical more like vertigo, than an intellectual resistance.�
Apr 20, 2015
krisg81 Setting your mirrors correctly + having an actual usable Blind Spot indicator system (unlike the crappy Model S version) would be a great combo!�
Apr 20, 2015
GregTexas It should be embarrassing to Tesla that 100% of their competition has indicators in the direction you look before changing lanes and they don't. Did they even look at what is already in the market?�
Apr 20, 2015
Stoneymonster I don't want flashing lights in my peripheral vision. Not saying Tesla's solution is great yet, but I'm not excited about having indicators in the mirrors. 100% of their competition does a lot of things that Tesla doesn't.�
Apr 20, 2015
krisg81 Stoney, with all due respect- have you driven a Mercedes or BMW and used their blind spot systems? They don't "flash" in your peripheral vision at all. They are in fact quite intuitive and give you a "second opinion" when changing lanes and confirm what you are seeing in the mirror. They just give you more confidence when changing lanes.
I am all for defending Tesla in most cases, but in this situation- their blind spot system is downright pathetic and shouldn't have been released at all. It is so ineffective, I wonder if it was simply implemented in its current form just to have the specs listed for marketing reasons. It is a complete joke.�
Apr 20, 2015
Stoneymonster No I haven't and you may be right. I do think there are ways to make this system good without putting indicators in the mirrors though. Part of it is rethinking the UI and part of it is getting the sensors working better. We shall see, I sure hope they can improve it
I will say the audio feedback saved me once this week when I was tired and somehow didn't check my mirrors, so it has some function.�
Apr 20, 2015
AmpedRealtor I don't know anyone who changes lanes while looking at the instrument cluster. Obviously Tesla designed this system presuming that side-view cameras would be used and the images displayed in the instrument cluster. In that scenario, the current warnings make sense because that's where your eyes are going to be. But that's not the world we are living in today. Someday the law will allow side-view cameras, but in the meantime, provide the appropriate warning indicators where people look before they change lanes - in their mirrors.�
Apr 20, 2015
Cyclone I can understand this. There are many times that I drive on highways and see the light go off on cars as I pass them or they pass me. I always wondered if that would be a nuisance to my peripheral vision if I was driving such a car.�
Apr 20, 2015
Canuck The hardware and software for all of these features is in an infancy stage. Current sensors can't even tell a plastic bag from a boulder, or a pothole from an uncovered manhole. But new sensors currently under development are solving these problems, which must be solved, before we will see self-driving cars. This is the beta stage, and it's pretty rudimentory, compared to what's coming. Unfortunately, it won't be with the current cars out there, according to the experts in the field.�
Apr 20, 2015
CHG-ON +1 here. My mirrors provide perfect blindspot visibility 100% of the time because they are set to do so. And by using them that way, I have seen that the white blind spot indicator, which is practically imperceivable in bright light, and the alarm are inaccurate on my car just about 100% of the time. The white does not come on when I have a car in the zone and the alarm comes on when the car is perhaps 15ft behind my car.
For me, it always gets back to the issue that we must be paying full attention all the time, take our driving very seriously and take ownership for what we are doing.
�
Apr 21, 2015
anxman I also echo this. The blindspot system on the Tesla should not be relied on. I found that at high speeds around 75mph+, the system will be inaccurate up to 90% of the time.�
Apr 21, 2015
brianman Firmware 6.2 - Page 2
"When used outside of the defined parameters, feature does not behave correctly." I have trouble breathing without oxygen as well, but I don't tend to post about it.�
Apr 21, 2015
Andyw2100 OK. Someone's gotta do it, so it may as well be me.
Just how is "around 75MPH+" outside the defined parameters of "between 20MPH and 85MPH?"
I'm sure you were thinking something else when you posted, since you provided all the information so nicely.
Edit: Or was it the "+?"�
Apr 21, 2015
GregTexas If you're going to re-invent the wheel, you don't make it square.�
Apr 21, 2015
brianman When someone says "around 75+" it might mean [1] "I really meant 85+ but I don't want to admit it on the internets" or [2] it could just mean "somewhere in the above 50 range" or [3] it could mean "over 691hp" or [4] it could mean "my eyes say 75+ but I didn't have a formal measuring device". I interpreted the phrasing as likely [2].
Further, if you say "75+" and you're talking about even a "lowly" S85 the "75+" band is pretty large -- [75,135). In that band, 90% of it is [81,135) so the documented "after 85 all bets are off" is pretty darn close. If you're talking about a P85D, then the top 90% is [83,155).�
Apr 21, 2015
Stoneymonster Errr, I can't adjust my driver's side mirror wide enough to "just see" the edge of the car when my head is against the window. How are you guys doing it?�
Apr 21, 2015
Andyw2100 Fair enough.
I was just amused at how well you thoroughly documented what looked like it was going to be a complete failure on the OP's part (if, say, the Tesla release notes had said 20-70 instead of 20-85), when anxman's actual stated speed number (without the plus) really fell within the range. But I see where you were going.�
Apr 21, 2015
brianman Noted. I'll try to be a little clearer next time. I tend to skip a few steps for brevity sometimes.�
Apr 21, 2015
Andyw2100 I had set my mirrors this way some time ago, using the method shown in the video in post number 62 in this thread (which I had seen posted some where before.) Using that method you don't move your head. My mirrors seem to be able to turn out wide enough.�
Apr 21, 2015
CHG-ON My experience has been well within the stated range: 30-65 MPH. Consistently inaccurate and inconsistent, as is the lane departure warning.
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Aug 27, 2015
Duma While this thread has been dormant for a while, recent discussion on the 7.0 beta thread mentioned the blind spot warning in passing. This caused me to think about how speculative UI improvements might improve the blind spot warning. Rather than posting off topic there, I thought this would be a more appropriate thread.
That said, I agree with many that the current visual implementation is too subtle to be picked up by peripheral vision and thus useless. However, I now think that much of the disappointment I feel with the implementation reflects the limitation of the sensors, which are basically ultrasonic and detect a vehicle that is statically within a few feet of the my car. That is fine for the case when the other vehicle is moving at the same speed as my car and is loitering in the "blind spot". (And yes, I have learned to adjust my mirrors to have essentially no blind spot.)
However, in highway driving I am also interested in the case where the other vehicle is overtaking my car and will be next to my car (entering my blind spot) as I start to change lanes. Obviously, the ultrasonic sensors can't cope with a vehicle that is approaching very quickly and so the side mirror check remains essential. But what if the other vehicle is moving relatively slowly, say relative speed of 1 mph, virtually motionless in a quick mirror check? That is about 1.5 feet/sec. For a sensor range of 10 feet, that allows a 7 second warning, assuming the speed of the other vehicle is known. Estimating the speed from the sensors probably reduces this by another second. At a relative speed of 4-5 mph the warning is a second at best. So the current sensors can only deal with a small range of situations where the other vehicle is moving at a very small relative speed. And that is assuming an optimal implementation by Tesla, which I am not claiming. If anything, the evidence points to Tesla not considering relative speed, which explains the relative "lateness" of the blind spot warning on the console when being passed.
My Tesla is the first car that I have owned with blind spot detection, so I can't compare with implementation from other brands. Perhaps they do include the relative speed of the other vehicle for a slightly better experience or have better hardware.
However, my net is that without better hardware to detect vehicles at greater range and with better estimate of relative speed, my expectations for the blind spot warning are now minimal. Hopefully the audible warning will alert me in time if I forget to check my mirrors while someone is loitering in my blind spot, because if I forget to check my mirrors, I am for sure not going to being checking the console. :redface:�
Aug 29, 2015
MarkS22 Don't forget we have a wide angle, HD rear-view camera to use in conjunction with ultrasonic. Tesla is working with MobileEye for Autopilot functionality and their specialty is using video cameras (as opposed to more expensive RADAR/LIDAR) to provide driver assistance. The rear view image could be analyzed to look for overtaking cars at a much greater distance, then verified with ultrasonic sensors.
Having come with other vehicles with blind spot monitors, I think Tesla just needs to fine tune the software. On other vehicles, it just worked. The Tesla implementation seems to react slowly and less reliably. And the other vehicles used the same ultrasonic sensors, so I don't think it's hardware.�
Aug 29, 2015
anxman My Model S is also my first vehicle to have active blind spot detection but it's fairly easy to assess the quality of other blind spot products in the market. I look at the side mirrors of other vehicles and many have lights to indicate a car in the blind spot. Generally speaking, they all seem to be more accurate and cover a larger space than the Model S. I am optimistic that they can improve the quality of the blind spot.
In the P85D/Autopilot introduction video, Elon Musk states that the ultrasonic sensors can operate at up to 150mph, and so I believe that more improvements are still coming, but just haven't been rolled out in the software yet.
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Aug 29, 2015
ViperDoc Hah! I think the real problem is that too many people are NOT looking at their side mirror when initiating a lane change!
DJ�
Sep 2, 2015
boonedocks I have a 2010 AH7 BMW that has blind spot lights on the side view mirrors. They light up unobtrusively in a very normal driving way. They are lit until the car is either well in front or behind in the side lanes. Far enough for the cars behind you as to not even come close to cutting them off and irritating them. I have started to change lanes in my 85D and had the warning chime sound when the light on the dash wasn't even lit. This makes no sense. Apparently the car knew there was something there but wasn't going to give a dash visual at all. I still haven't figured out the rhyme or reason for when the gray light shows up on the dash!�
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