May 22, 2015
brucet999 As an on-the-fence prospective buyer, I find the many quality control complaints on these fora off-putting. So can some of you "veterans" help put them in perspective for me and for others in my position?
Fora such as this are certainly not truly representative of the general population of MS owners. clearly not all MS owners participate here and it is clear that many who do participate are not yet owners. I see that there are over 25,000 members of Teslamotorsclub.com, but how many of those are actually MS owners?
It is also well known that, in general, people with complaints about a product are far more likely to post on such fora than are satisfied customers.
On the other hand, Tesla owners are far more likely to be emotionally involved with the product simply because it is so different from other vehicles. In most cases, I would guess, that very difference is a large part of the attraction for them (us actually, for that is the case with me). For that reason, I would expect there to be a larger percentage of apologists among the posters here than for other product-centered fora.
I also know that every car make has production and design problems that owners end up having to get fixed. Even top-quality rated Lexus vehicles have their problems. Unfortunately, sources of information like Edmunds.com and JD Power initial quality and reliability studies provide no information about Tesla.
So, Veteran owners, what do you say to us on-the-fencers?
Thanks�
May 22, 2015
Max* Coming to a Tesla forum and asking if you should buy a Tesla is like taking a kid to an ice cream shop and asking if they want ice cream.�
May 22, 2015
capt601 Dec. 2012 car here. And little to no issues. No door. Handle problems, no drove train problems, no battery problems.
Screen issue shortly after delivery, but fixed very quickly and easily by service center. Pano roof seal was sticking up slightly and they fixed. No issues because of it. That's about it. Most reliable car we've owned. And no shady dealers and their service centers to mess with.
Join the OC tesla group for our next get together and you'll be able to ask quite a few people.�
May 22, 2015
kuttakamina I posted a poll on exactly this topic for exactly the same reasons recently -
Model S reliability issues
The results and comments are helpful - albeit given that there are 67K Model S's sold, that small representative set could be highly inaccurate.
Still the takeaways are,
- The 2012's I would personally steer clear of those. Happy for those who haven't had issues, no hard feelings!
- The newer the car, the fewer the issues. That could also be because well, the car hasn't had enough road time. Still anecdotally people feel the newer ones are built better.
- The excellent customer service makes up for the issues.
However do consider that,
- The customer service could slide
- Beyond 4 years warranty, repairs can be very expensive. I am in my head factoring the 4k extended warranty that I will most probably buy .. unless my car is defect free for 4 years (unlikely).
- And body work in general (not related to reliability but to TCO) is extremely expensive, Tesla's partners (authorized body shops) are very expensive.
I guess you should also compare with comparable cars. Mercedes Benz doesn't have the best reliability record either, neither are their services cheaper. BMW, the first 4 years are free, after which you are gouged. Plus have to deal with dealers and ICE issues.
Long story short, IMO, if $ is your concern, go with Honda/Toyota/Nissan/Acura/Lexus/Infiniti. They will also be more reliable.
Tesla will give you a superior driving and feature/tinker toys, but its gonna cost ya (both $ and some headache)!�
May 22, 2015
apacheguy Remember that Tesla Service is great about fixing things and providing a loaner while your car is in the shop. Biggest issue I had was a HV battery failure, but keep in mind that a) I'm one of the first MS built so of course my car can be expected to have more problems b) it was completely covered under warranty and inconvenience was minimal. I don't think reliability concerns should stop anyone from buying a Tesla. Look at consumer reports for more details if you are still concerned.�
May 22, 2015
Cyclone As a new owner, I will share my perspective. The two biggest "things" I see about the Model S and Tesla Motors are:
1 - What some people complain is a lack of thorough evaluation of design decisions and quality control. I am an Engineer by trade and I spend much of my time on problem determination calls and root cause analysis. For us, we often discuss on ways things could be caught earlier and improved in the future. Now, in Tesla's case, most issues people complain about are, IMO, unreasonable for Tesla to catch every time at the factory. For instance, a misaligned pano roof seal. As long as this is not a systemic problem, I don't think any factory should be opening/closing every single sunroof and water testing and air tunnel testing every single sunroof to ensure a perfect seal. Have the process in place to ensure 90%+ of them are in good shape and the Service Centers can address the few that slip through. Design Decisions are a different concern, like the current thread about the center console. There, this leads mostly into #2.
2 - Tesla Motors, as a whole, has a communications clarity/transparity problem. Most of the angst people experience could easily be avoided by more proactive and/or more detailed communications. Take, for example, when the first cars with Next Gen seats were delivered. People found out at delivery that the next gen seats are a due bill item and they will get them later. Not a big deal and getting the car now vs. waiting on seat supply was the right decision. That said, customers probably would have felt much better if they were told prior to showing up for delivery that the seats were backordered and would be a due bill item in an effort to get the car to the customer faster. There are other examples on these forums, but essentially, they boil down to the customer could have had an improved experience if they simply got better communications.
In the end, I do NOT regret my decision of a Tesla in any way, I still love the company, and I would not hesitate to go through the process again. That doesn't mean I would not appreciate if Tesla did better on certain things.�
May 22, 2015
efusco Take a look at the True Delta site as well for a little bit more organized reliability data source.
Tesla Model S Reliability�
May 22, 2015
commasign I had a November 2013 P85 which I kept for about 1 year. It had wind noise that took a few visits to fix, and developed the motor noise problem at 10,000 miles which took a few visits to fix and was ultimately replaced. I also had the dreaded 12 volt battery failure which required my car to be towed. In all cases, Tesla service was excellent and either arranged a free car rental or picked up and dropped off my car with their valet service.
I now have a December 2014 P85D which has not had any service issues so far. I definitely get the sense they've worked out most of the kinks in the last year.�
May 22, 2015
Canuck I don't think you should be telling people that Tesla will "cost ya... some headache" when you don't even own the car.
In the 1+ year I have owned my car I had an issue with one door handle not retracting that was fixed by the ranger service at my office, and when I had the yearly service I had the charge port door replaced since the magnet came loose. Minor issues and no headaches at all.�
May 22, 2015
brianman "Can" is such a fun word. I "can" win the lottery.
I think a more appropriate phrasing is "out of warranty repair pricing for Model S is an unknown at this point". Tesla's track record for Roadster out-of-warranty repairs is apparently quite good, so that's promising.
As for in warranty costs, I need to ping my service center to get real numbers but IIRC there are two things I've had to pay for so far for my (Nov 2012) Sig P85 since purchase: (A) replacement 21" wheel and (B) alignment after installing that wheel (and new tires all around) at Discount Tire.
My biggest complaint: I want the <bleep> extended warranty in WA state for my Sig. I'm tempted to see if I can somehow register it out of state for a few months (or a year...) to address that problem before it kicks past 50k miles (currently mid 40s).�
May 22, 2015
kuttakamina I don't need to be on top of Mt. Everest to know its pretty damn cold there either.
The issues you mention in 1 year, I haven't had anything close to that in 8 years.
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That site is awesome. Thanks!!�
May 22, 2015
Canuck No. You haven't had anything close to that in your lifetime since you don't own this car. Comparing a new electric vehicle to ICE vehicles that have been in production for many years is not a fair comparison. Also, I have owned many new ICE vehicles and I can't think of one that did not require minor warranty repairs.
More importantly, your statement was that Tesla will "cost ya... some headache". That's simply not true from my perspective, unlike the temperature on Mt. Everest which we know from facts.�
May 22, 2015
Canuck Ahhhh, you're no fun... we'll never make it to the spininess thread if we just agree to disagree...
�
May 22, 2015
Drucifer Actually he just made it....just a couple of entries past ME!
snippiness - Page 142�
May 22, 2015
kuttakamina
THAT snippiness was not deserved. The guy was selling a Pony bike in a Tesla forum. :biggrin:�
May 22, 2015
brucet999 That is an interesting idea. If it is illegal for a manufacturer to sell an extended warranty in WA, would it be illegal for that same mfr.'s service centers to honor such a warranty that was purchased out of state?�
May 22, 2015
brianman My understanding from a fellow TMC forum member is that a car bought in a non-WA state with the extended warranty would have that warranty honored after moving into WA state.�
May 22, 2015
omarsultan But there are a few thousand years of data points on the temp there and quite a few people have made the trek. Since your poll has all of 63 respondents and half them said they have no issues, I am not sure you should be making any pronouncements as you have neither personal experience nor a statistically valid data set from which to draw conclusions.�
May 22, 2015
breading I have an early 2013 P85. I have had a few issues. The most extensive was a drive train replacement which they did for the known issue of a low rumbling sound. I also had the door handles, TPMS, and the 12 volt battery replaced. I have driven it across country and to work every day for the past two years.
Bottom line is this: Every car made is likely to have issues at some point. I would much rather deal with the Tesla service center and rangers than any dealer service center I have ever been to. Don't let a fear of issues deprive you of the Tesla grin!�
May 22, 2015
jerry33 Early 2013 S85. Like Breading I have had few issues. The most extensive was the charger replacement. The Model S quality seems to be as good as any other car I've had a better than some (I already ranted about the "some" yesterday in another thread, so I won't repeat today). Tesla service is one of the reasons I purchased the car. No regrets.�
May 22, 2015
kuttakamina Drive train replacement - that is HUGE for a car that is 2 years old.
But I nod to the sentiment "I would much rather deal with the Tesla service center and rangers than any dealer service center I have ever been to"
.. I hate dealers! Also good for the Planet, good for America, bad for jihadists.
I am getting a Tesla, no doubt about it. But its always good to step into the party knowing where the ugly chicks are.�
May 22, 2015
Canuck Are you 12 years old? That's such a juvenile and offensive statement.�
May 22, 2015
hcoon2000 I am an early adopter I think my vin is 1649. My Texla was delivered via UPS in January 2013. A Texla is similar to a unicorn. The Great State DOES want the tax revenue just not the political headache associated with the Texas Automobile Dealers Association, TADA. The bureaucrats in Austin pretend Tesla doesn't exist, its a unicorn. Getting my tag took four months because I could not find a shop willing to do the required inspection prior to getting a license plate back in January 2013. That was the biggest problem I had and it clearly was not an issue Tesla could resolve.
I have had a few problems but every one was quickly resolved at no additional expense to me other than the time required by the shop to update firmware or replace a component.
My interior lights were replaced after a valet punched his finger through the driver side light. My floor mats were replaced twice. At the 26,500 mile mark I finally got the dreaded 12 volt subsystem problem. I was leaving town the next day. Tesla support had my car towed, repaired the battery, washed my car and had it back in my garage by the time I got home from my trip. They offered me a loaner, but I didn't see the point of leaving a loaner at the airport.
I purchased the 8 year warranty with service. I have never regretted the decision. This is the best car I have ever owned. I hope the company does well. I never want to go back to the poor quality cars I drove from other manufacturers. I never want to experience the lack of true concern for the customer the other companies have demonstrated by using the middleman dealer model.
I would liken it to healthcare. Would you rather have a long term relationship with a doctor who is concerned for your welfare or an insurance company that tells you the problem with your heart (check engine light) does not have a code in the universally accepted book of codes the middlemen both concocted and share?
Any time something new disrupts a comfortable economic model ( read crony ) there is inherent risk. No risk, no reward. The Tesla experience is truly rewarding. I recommend it to anyone that wants to enjoy driving every day.�
May 22, 2015
kuttakamina 11 and a half!!�
May 22, 2015
JPP I guess you need to decide if the problems are 'major' and also how much you are inconvenienced. I too have had the drive unit replaced for the subtle clunk. I had the instrument cluster replaced for a noisy cooling fan. I had a loss of refrigerant sue to a loose compression fitting in the AC loop. Never stuck at the side of the road, always excellent service, always a loaner better than my car (...let's not dwell on he P85D loaner...). I happily enjoy the potentially less reliable car with stellar service versus the potentially more reliable car with suboptimal service. YMMV.�
May 22, 2015
David99 I got mine in March 2014. Drove 47k miles on it so far (that's a lot). I drive mostly in California and Arizona and Nevada heat. I drive many road trips on Superchargers, some all the way from Los Angeles to Minneapolis and back. I drive about 50-150 miles daily.
- Reliability is perfect for me. Never had any issues that prevented me from driving. Nothing. The car charges every time and drives every time and it performs every time. 100% for me so far.
- Supercharger reliability was also 100% on all trips and in all types of weather. That's a very important aspect of the car.
- small quality issues: Yes some small ones here and there. Everything was cosmetic, though. No issues that needed immediate attention. Almost all issues were fixed for free by the service.
- They did take care of some noise from the drive unit a few times. Again it's just cosmetic, but nevertheless it is covered by the 8 year warranty.
Overall, the car has turned out to be perfectly reliable, very safe in some close call situations. The generous seat and cargo space has been extremely useful for my business and road trips. I did not buy this car to save money. There are less expensive alternatives. Nevertheless it turns out to be pretty cost effective compared to other cars in it's class. Don't get hung up on what appears to be discussed here about quality issues. The Model S is a very good quality car. It is not a perfect car. No car is perfect. Overall it is the best car I have ever driven. I would definitely buy it again as it is. What can't be explained is how much more fun, satisfying, calming, enjoying it is to drive. I really love driving the Model S every day, which I can't say about any other car.�
May 22, 2015
fluxemag Here's my input, based on experience from today. My car is two years old as of yesterday, with 26k miles on it. I have had various rattles fixed by the service center, along with some proactive changes that they made. I had the 12V battery replaced after the car gave me advanced warning. My glove box didn't always open. But really nothing major. Each and every time my car was picked up by service, a loaner was dropped off for me to use, and the car was returned to me clean.
So today I dropped my wife off at the airport, and thought I'd take her car into the Lexus dealer to get serviced. It's a 2012 that has been very reliable. But it too had some noises to be addressed by service when it was new. And now it needs an oil change and the PRNDL shifter no longer goes into neutral. The shifter is electric and can't select N reliably anymore. So here's the difference. I have to drive it down to the dealer across town and wait two hours in the lobby, or wait for a shuttle to take me home, and then back to the dealer (which will probably take 4 hours). And they can't fit me in for at least a week.
I don't care if Tesla has my car once a month, because their service is just plain superior.�
May 22, 2015
chriSharek Cyclone, I knew we had some other connection. I'm an environmental engineer. We obviously have similar values and appreciations.�
May 22, 2015
brianman Well put.�
May 22, 2015
brucet999 Cyclone and ChriSharek, it's interesting that you mention your being engineers. As I asked questions of the guys at the Tesla store, they asked if I were an engineer. They both agreed that a lot of Tesla enthusiasts and buyers are engineers. Makes sense, I suppose, that Tesla would appeal to engineering types.�
May 22, 2015
theheff I'd go new if it's at all possible. I think the 70D is a great value right now. I almost always buy something lightly used and still under warranty, but the tax credits available for a Tesla ($13.5k total living in Colorado) really help with the immediate depreciation. My 2013 P85 is still the best car I've ever owned, but the build quality of the newer Model S cars is so much better. Test-driving a P85D recently was pretty eye-opening. I've had all the issues that the other early owners have had - drive unit replaced, battery replaced, pano roof creaking issues, door handle replaced, window motor replaced, etc. These issues are no big deal to me now since the car is under warranty, but some of the non-drivetrain issues might really cost me when i cross 50k miles in the next year. All that being said, the service has been outstanding and my issues have been completely addressed. I think Elon Musk was quoted saying that Tesla updates ~20 parts per week on the Model S. That's a thousand changes every year, and those improvements have a huge impact on the reliability, build quality, and longevity of the car over its life.
I bought my 2013 P85 used a year ago in May 2014. I saved some serious coin, but it's amazing how quickly new features have come out. If I could do it again, I would have definitely waited and gotten the 85D instead. I wouldn't be surprised if Tesla releases a larger capacity battery back and/or more efficient version of the 85 sometime before the holidays. My point is that by buying used, you're already buying something obsolete. Being under warranty still, this might be perfectly fine to you. If autopilot and dual-wheel drive aren't as important to you, I'd stick to something 2014 or newer.
Just my $.02!�
May 22, 2015
ToddRLockwood I have not read through all these posts, but here's something worth considering... Even if your Model S has a few minor issues during it's first couple of years, you've already saved a lot of time and hassle by not having to take your car in for oil changes and other routine maintenance found on gasoline cars. For me, that's a big advantage. The majority of work done on my Model S was performed in my own garage by Tesla's ranger mechanics. I should also add that in 36K miles, there has never been a problem serious enough to keep me from driving the car.�
May 22, 2015
Btrflyl8e I've had a couple of very minor issues, but here's the deal... I just never worry about it. Because I know how outstanding Tesla service is, if something happened I just have confidence that they'll make it right and I won't be inconvenienced. THAT is a big difference from every other car I've ever owned.�
May 22, 2015
AmpedRealtor DO IT! YOU WON'T REGRET IT!
I have an August 2013 build. Most of my issues came early. The car had some air bubbles in the alcantara, developed a "tea kettle" noise in the front of the pano roof, and a piece of my trunk liner fell down. Car initially shipped with the wrong tires, but this was also during a switchover from Goodyears to Michelins on the 19" wheels. Tesla Service took care of everything to my satisfaction. I have had 3 drive unit replacements, all for noise issues. The last replacement was in January, and with a brand new unit from the factory.
I experienced little to no inconvenience for my issues. As an apology over the initial quality problems, Tesla gave me free 2nd-gen fog lights. Every time I had a drive unit replaced, I received a Model S loaner. I couldn't have asked to be treated any better. I feel like royalty when I take my car for service. I am very hopeful that the drive unit issue has been solved (knock wood), other than that I don't think I've had any issues in the last year.�
May 22, 2015
Max* One more engineer.�
May 22, 2015
Todd Burch Background: I am a mechanical engineer and I work for a dimensional metrology software company (now more involved on the software side than the mechanical side). (Metrology is the science of precision dimensional measurement. When Elon said in an interview about a year ago that he wanted the panels to be super-tight, to the thousandth of an inch, he was referring to the results that come from metrological inspection in the factory). What do our customers do? Precision inspections for quality--gap and flush in automotive plants, precision robotic positioning, etc. In fact, Tesla has some of the equipment from my company's parent company in their factory.
I had a 2012 S85 (P1653) and now have a recent car (Oct 2014 P85-- P55228).
The early car had some issues as expected. Tesla was nothing but outstanding in correcting them. Once those issues were fixed (in the first few thousand miles), I had zero issues from that point on. Build quality on the initial cars, as far as fit and finish is concerned, was below average.
My more recent car, now at 13,000+ miles, has had zero issues. Door handles have worked flawlessly. Drivetrain has been 100% reliable (despite having a common but (I'm told) harmless, barely audible buzz between 0-20 kW of power output). I haven't had it serviced at all yet. And--uh oh---I forgot to change the oil--oh...right. I would put fit and finish on the recent cars as "average" to "slightly above average" overall. Interior fit and finish is above average, and body panel gap and flush is about average to just slightly below average. My car has some misalignment on the chrome trim on one side, which I think can be corrected when I finally take my car in for its annual service. Gaps are a little on the big side, so they have some ways to go there.
My service experience with Tesla has been phenomenal. Early on, Nathan and the crew in Rockville, MD--and more recently with Gwenen and crew in Charlotte, NC has been flawless. However, be aware that this seems to be very location-specific. Areas that tend to be busy (such as California) seem to have had more service complaints simply because of the higher density of owners.
So I would put reliability at many, many times better than the early cars. And, I think the major issues with those early cars have since been remedied.
You're probably not going to get the reliability of a Toyota Corolla--Tesla's not there yet. You're not going to get the body panel gap and flush of a Lexus. Tesla's not there yet. But I'd say it's good now, and getting better every day. And this drivetrain technology has the potential to be far *more* reliable and to last far *longer* than an ICE. There are already several early Model S cars with over 100,000 miles on the ODO with no significant drivetrain issues! (I know personally of one who must be coming up on 130,000 miles any day now).
One thing about reliability with these electronic components: In general they have a much higher tendency to fail early in their service life (like the Consumer Reports door handle). Once you get over that hump, you usually have good reliabilty for quite a while, until things age considerably.
Also: forums tend to amplify the apparent frequency of issues as well. There are more "this broke, that broke" comments than "everything's fine" comments, for obvious reasons.
Get off that fence and make the purchase. You won't regret it.�
May 22, 2015
bonnie And it's always good to get a feel for what kind of person my fellow forum members are ... thanks for the data point.
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So as you've undoubtedly noticed, even though you asked for the opinion of veteran owners, you also received opinions from people who don't even own a Tesla.
I've owned a Roadster for approx 4.5 years & am in line for a Model X. There are a number of owners here on the forum who started with just wanting one Tesla & now have multiple Teslas and/or reservations for future models. THAT should tell you what we truly think of the car and the company.
I never planned to go 'all in' on EVs. But once my Model X is delivered, the Jeep will go & I'll be 100% EV / 100% Tesla. And not a single worry about that decision, based on over 4 years of dealing with the company and their products.�
May 22, 2015
ecarfan My S85 is a Dec 2013 build. 21K miles now. No serious issues, has always run, never failed. Driver display replaced proactively by Tesla, I had no problem with it. Tesla came to my house and replaced my HPWC cable because it failed. Also came to my house and replaced the 12V battery after a year because the car said it was not taking a full charge. Some other very minor issues with the car that were fixed by Tesla under warranty. Have had only one of the "annual maintenance" services so far.
The car is bloody brilliant! And the service is excellent. Loved it so much that last October I sold my Porsche and bought a Roadster. I have not driven an ICE vehicle since and hope to never drive one again. They seriously suck.�
May 22, 2015
AnOutsider Sorry, I can't agree with this. Our ICE cars go in for regular service at intervals that are a little more than a year or so of driving. All the oil changing and such is done at those times. It's also included in the ~$500 plan we purchased when we got the cars.
In contrast, my Model S has been in for service more times than any of our other cars. Service is covered, but the yearly inspection (used to be mandatory) costs more for a SINGLE VISIT than we paid to have our ICE cars covered for 50k miles of service.
So to recap: in more, costs more. I just couldn't see myself selling a potential buyer on any time or cost savings in that department.
To the OP: the 70D seems like a bargain, and the newer Model S's seem to be better-built than the ones in the past. Though mine has been in often, I don't regret buying the vehicle at all. If there were alternatives, then I'd recommend shopping a bit, but if you're looking for an EV with practical range, then this is it, and I'd recommend going for it.�
May 22, 2015
dsm363 Smiley face doesn't make it any better.
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To the OP:
Sept. 2012 model with basically no issues. Some minor things like many of the cars but service has been excellent.�
May 22, 2015
Canuck The potential buyers will be coming from ICE vehicles and will likely not have had their vehicles serviced at intervals greater than once a year. That's certainly not the norm in my experience. Keep in mind also that aside from no oil changes the regenerative braking saves on brake repairs.
Plus, I've never had an ICE vehicle serviced in my parking lot under warranty while I worked, like Tesla did when they repaired a door handle. I used to get rides to and from my office from the dealership and I thought that was good service. But Tesla took that one step further.�
May 22, 2015
trils0n My car has had it's share of issues. Overall, they are insignificant. Mostly squeaks and rattles that Tesla happily fixes. Even the big things, like drive unit replacements, aren't like a motor or transmission repair in an ICE. (I think the service center said it took about the same amount of time to realign the car after DU replacement as it did to replace the unit.) Tesla's service is great, and I never have any worries. I believe drive unit issue has been solved with updated or shimmed parts, which should prevent new car's drive units from needing to be replaced.�
May 22, 2015
AnOutsider Tesla service is great. My comment was in response to saving money on service vs an ICE. On that, I can not agree. I've also yet to replace the brakes on either ICE. One is 6 years old, the other is 2. I feel like much of these savings that are being quoted are theoretical... like Tesla's "the car cost less because time is money and you'll spend less time at gas stations!".
The car has a lot going for it. I just don't see the need to fabricate (IMO) additional reasons to buy it.�
May 22, 2015
ChadS Doesn't this make, like, a dozen threads asking this question?
As the OP noted, you can't determine failure rates by reading fora postings. Only Tesla has the real rates, and they are not sharing - although somebody noted their warranty reserves seem inline with other manufacturers.
What you really want is a prediction, but of course nobody can give you that.
Next best is to look at past performance. You need a lot of data, including from people that don't have problems. Consumer Reports still has some selection issues and doesn't cover everybody, but the types of errors that would generate tend to be with absolute rather than comparative numbers. So I think the best data we have (though not perfect) is look at Consumer Reports and compare to other cars.
CR says the Model S is average. For people that are scared off by that, many comparable ICE cars are worse.�
May 22, 2015
ChadS For those considering used cars, the most common question is "which year is best?" The biggest problem with that is that Tesla does not make changes by model year; they are continuous.
They are also growing rapidly, and making many changes to reduce costs and speed up the assembly line, in addition to changes to improve quality. Sometimes quality moved backwards; though I would expect the overall trend to be positive.
As has been said before, early cars had some well-known problems, but Tesla fixed them for free and the early car owners I know (including me) are extremely happy with what we have. It's not breaking over and over.�
May 22, 2015
supratachophobia Just my .02, 8 months, 22k miles. I've had just about everything in the car replaced that could be replaced. Let's see...
2 door handles
2 door control modules
4 charge ports (the first had a burned out LED, the other three were to troubleshoot a amperage drop during charging)
3 chargers (again, to troubleshooting amperage drop while charging)
12v battery posts (proactive, not my call)
Spline/hub service to address clicking sound (3 visits, once to diagnosis, 2 to fix)
Three visits for leaky sunroof, fourth visit was a new sun roof (lots of wet crotches for driver and passengers, not in a good way)
Windshield replacement because robot at factory ran out of glue and there was a leak
Driver door wiring harness / driver door mirror (this took three visits, and I was the one to successfully diagnose the issue, hurray!)
Three visits to properly align chrome trim pieces
Re-glue other chrome trim pieces to eliminate cracking sound on 45' turns into driveway
New HVAC vents (sounded like a leaf was stuck in there when first delivered)
Three front fan replacements (not sure if all the same one or different)
Various squeaks and rattles that were addresses by the miraculous Teflon tape
Visit to install center-console
Visit to mount summer tires
Currently troubleshooting the whining sound from the rear between 0-20kw and below 30mph
Total of 15 service visits to date I think. Whew, that feels good to get it all down in writing.
I do blame a lot of the issues on the end of production rush in Q3'14 due to the factory shutdown/new production line. And I'd say half of the issues are quality control that should have been dealt with at the factory (but weren't because it's easier on Tesla to let the service center resolve the issue at the expense of the customer's time), and the other half are design/engineering issues where a new bulletin or part revision addressed an already known issue. I do suspect that the drive unit issues for RWD cars may be an engineering issue that will always plague us. There are certain indicators that TM is trying to mitigate this by lowering peak kw and therefore reducing stress in that component to delay/eliminate failure risk.
All that being said, I am terrified about out-of-warranty repair costs. When they happen (and they will happen if the reliability on here is any indication, which I think it is), they are going to be expensive, even if you have the extended warranty (read the fine print, there is a deductible for each incident).
In closing, amazingly enough, no problems as of yet that have cause me to be stranded anywhere. Although the door handle issue forced several entries into the car via the trunk. I am slightly concerned that the whining sound is a precursor to something that could cause the car to be un-drivable, but the service center seems oddly unconcerned.
And here is the real kicker, I'm still on my 1st 12v battery! I know, right?�
May 22, 2015
Smallfootprint November 2012 delivery here:
I've had the following issues:
1 door handle performing inconsistently (rear passenger side, so only minority inconvenient) - replaced for free
Bluetooth microphone burnout - replaced for free
When I had those issues fixed they were out of loaners so I did have to drop off the car at the service center ~12 miles away and pick it up 2 days later.
That's it. I mistakenly thought I had a screen failure of the 17" touchscreen, but it turned out that was user (my) error and had nothing to do with the car build quality or the software.
Tesla has pro-actively done a lot of small hardware upgrades whenever it goes in for its annual service, but I don't really bother to note them because they're fixing things that aren't broken. Similarly, they recalled my whole 85kwh battery (A-pack) and shipped it off to California a few months ago and replaced it with a loaner battery that I've now been driving on for quite a few miles - I won't complain if they ultimately forget and let me keep the new pack although I hadn't experienced any noticeable battery degradation yet in 3 years. Tesla service e-mailed me proactively and asked to do this and then they came and picked up the car while I was at work and switched the batteries out by the time I had to drive home and put it back in the lot. Seamless.�
May 23, 2015
Todd Burch A note about delivery rushes: it's probably true that cars built toward the end of a quarter in the past have had more quality issues. (My car was one of the first built in Q4'14 and has been reliable). One positive is that Tesla has finally started to balance out its production. There didn't seem to be as big a rush to get cars delivered at the end of Q1'15, and seems to be doing better at keeping a steady production pace. I believe Elon even mentioned that they needed to stop the delivery rushes at the end of the quarter.
This should bode well for quality.�
May 23, 2015
CHG-ON I had an early problem with a solenoid for the air suspension that they fixed immediately with no inconvenience to me at all. The only other problem I have had has been that the pano roof rail rubber gasket is getting chewed up by something. No idea what since the roof works perfectly. Their service is SO GOOD, that they saw my post on this forum, asking a question about if anybody else had this issue, and they contacted me proactively to to get it fixed. I never called them.
Now THAT is service. You will be fine. It is an excellent car in every aspect. I have 11K and 8 months and I will NEVER go back.�
May 23, 2015
Cyclone I had this experience as well after posting in the low speed whine noise thread. Tesla is definitely listening!�
May 23, 2015
brucet999 Wow!�
May 23, 2015
supratachophobia They seem to only track down members on here if you have your VIN in your sig. Beyond that, they can only speculate who you are for the most part and cant reliably get in touch with you.�
May 23, 2015
brucet999 You, on the other hand, are probably on all of their speed dials.�
May 23, 2015
David99 Nope, they called me once as well regarding a post I made here yet I never posted my VIN here.�
May 23, 2015
nanimac Same here...I posted about some rattles in my car one morning and the SC called me that afternoon. They fixed the rattles and even one I didn't notice.
Tesla service, just like the Model S is unmatched in the industry...despite any issues, just look at how many people still love their car and how many are already on their 2nd Model S.
You just can't get into owning a Model S thinking the same way as any other car brand because Tesla has completely changed the way you buy a car and service it.�
May 24, 2015
Ben W VIN #P00061 here, car delivered Sept 2012. Considering the very early VIN, I'm quite pleased with how solid the car is. Here are the issues I've had:
1. Took delivery, woke up the next day to find the windshield cracked in half! (Factory installation issue.) Replaced quickly and free. No problems since.
2. Creaky Pano roof, took ~3 attempts to properly fix. Working fine now.
3. 3g connectivity dropout, required replacement of some interior components. (SC couldn't diagnose at first because their diagnostic equipment relied on 3g!) Fine now.
4. Original vanity mirrors were warped/distorted. Replaced with better ones.
5. One faulty door handle replaced. Another is still occasionally balky (rear door spontaneously pops open when car put into park); will try to replace at next SC visit.
Never had any drivetrain or battery issues, knock on carbon fiber. (though I hope to one day get a free upgrade to the newer 120kW-capable pack ;-)�
May 24, 2015
morbot I don't have my VIN in my sig... and while discussing a rather minor issue here they were able to track me down and contact me regarding it. Was pretty interesting they were able to find me out, although I supposed I revealed enough info about myself�
May 24, 2015
MorrisonHiker I was contacted by Tesla and am not an owner yet, so I don't have a VIN. I suppose it is possible they used my Model X reservation number to track me down.�
May 24, 2015
Drucifer If they have your city (and it is not a big town) and configuration, they can probably figure out who you are...at least they could when there were only 10-30k Model S out there. Now it is harder. I would imagine if your Location is San Francisco, they are not going to figure out who you are.�
May 24, 2015
ecarfan Well that is mystifying. How did Tesla know how to get in touch with you?�
May 24, 2015
lolachampcar On Tesla number five with over 50K total miles. My wife and I have had two problems, both with her car. The first was the "AC hard line vibrating on the steering column" problem early on. The tech came out to my hangar and fixed it in under 30 minutes while I was doing other things. The second was just recently when the right front started to click once or twice when turning the wheel to the right at low speed. I dropped it off in the AM and picked up a loaner (all of about seven minutes) and picked it back up that afternoon on my way back in from out West.
I've had tons of high end cars in the past and none have been this good on initial, first and second year quality. Add to it that there simply is no comparison when it comes to the service experience. Sure, all the staff is young and can be prone to making simple mistakes but I will gladly take that trade against dealing with an old hardened dealer veteran where I know I'm getting done even if I've not yet figured out how.
There have been some initial quality issues and end of quarter delivery push issues. Judging by the quarterly earnings calls, Tesla gets it as they are moving away from quarterly numbers and setting expectations based on rolling delivery rates.
That is my 2 cents worth.
Bill�
May 24, 2015
bonnie Great analysis of the mistakes we've all seen made - intent is to improve, not screw the customer.�
May 24, 2015
MarkR As an early adopter, I fully expected to have some service issues. There were a couple of minor issues that were immediately addressed. On my second MS, I just noticed a whine at low speeds and the drive unit was replaced. I'm a happy customer who won't likely consider another car car until the Model 3 arrives.�
May 24, 2015
supratachophobia This guy is great.�
May 24, 2015
breser So I've had two.
The first one I didn't keep for long or put very many miles on it. But the only significant issue I had was a loose piece of material on the steering wheel. Which they ordered a new steering wheel for and replaced. No arguing no debate, just fixed it. It was relatively minor, but I knew it was something that was going to nag at me so I said something. There were some relatively minor rattles that got handled when the car was in for the steering wheel as well. But missing out on Autopilot was too big of a deal to me and I traded the vehicle soon after and ordered my 85D.
My 85D is almost to 10k miles. It's had some rattles. The most significant one was in the pano roof. They knew exactly what it was and fixed it right away. It's had a clicking sound in the back seat that despite two attempts they just haven't been able to fix. I haven't bugged them about it because their efforts to eliminate it have certainly made it happen less often and only in harsher conditions and on the last trip in they weren't able to reproduce it. So I want to spend some time isolating it myself so I can more clearly tell them what to fix the next time. But the lack of a fix is not because of lack of serious effort on their part to resolve this.
The 85D however, has had the rear drive unit replaced on it. But this happened prior to my delivery. I had one of the first 85Ds destined for a customer. I would have had the first delivery had the drive unit issue came up and delayed delivery by a week. As it stands I ended up getting the 2nd delivery by a day. This issue turned out to be a torn gasket from the factory that allowed water into the motor. It was caught in pre-delivery testing due to sensor readings. The car apparently notified Tesla HQ about the problem as well as displaying errors because the SC told me they were investigating the issue when HQ called to ask that they do so. I've had zero problems with this since. Given the new nature of the 85D and the fact that they caught it before delivering it to me I don't think I can really hold this against them.
I've yet to have a vehicle by any manufacturer that doesn't have little issues like the rattles. But what I can say is I've yet to see a manufacturer that is so willing to fix them. Usually if they can't reproduce it they won't even really try to fix it. Tesla may not be able to reproduce it but they'll put some time into trying to resolve the issue. Each of the two times it's been in for rattles they've gone for a drive before and after with me. Everytime the car has come back better than when I dropped it off though ultimately the problem came back though not as bad.
In comparision, my Lexus had a rattle that I never did get rid of and Lexus wasn't really interested in figuring it out even when it was new. My F-150 had goop from the vapor barriers getting on the windows that they never managed to fix and I gave up and took the doors apart myself and fixed it. So if you're going to have problems with a vehicle, it seems that Tesla will at least take care of you well.�
May 28, 2015
Electricfan +1
I'm not really absolutely certain what "+1" means, as I'm an old fart. But that's my first one. I hope it means something like "I could not have said it better myself". That's what we used to say before the internet. I know, old old old.
Update: ok now I've read all the posts. I would state for the record - drove one Model S from Sept 2013 to April 2015, 18k miles. I've never loved a car before. I traded my car in on a 2015 model I pick up next Thursday. I still feel sad that my old car hasn't called me. Never felt that way about a car before. I guess I'm saying get off the fence, you'll never regret it.�
May 28, 2015
supratachophobia I think the takeaway here is that there are some of us who have had a few problems, others that have had a ton of problems, and still others with nary a one. But service is great and the pros outweigh the cons. I just don't want someone going into the purchase and thinking it's all going to be all roses and superchargers.
�
May 29, 2015
lolachampcar not one rose for me but lots of SuperChargers and smiles�
May 29, 2015
chriSharek Brucet999, you might not be formally one, but maybe in personality! My Dad should have been one, but isn't formally / by education. The simplicity of an electric motor and battery system is the most alluring thing to me about this car.
I will say though, before I jumped into the deep end (all electric) I've been driving my Volt for the past 4 years - with the gas back-up generator. All good engineers include a little redundancy in their designs!
- - - Updated - - -
So, did you get your new car!? Pix!?�
May 29, 2015
Korben +1 is used by programmers to increment an integer variable by one.
Your usage was fine. You said that you agree and support the expressed opinion or idea.�
May 29, 2015
CharlesJR I spent over a year looking at Tesla for my next car. A dealer in CA (I live in MD) told me that Tesla would be testing the powertrain for the Model X in the Model S in 2015 so I waited.
Sure enough the P85D was released and this was what I was waiting for. Honestly though I shopped it with the BMW i8 and if that car had not had a one year wait AND every BMW dealership I went into wanted at least $50,000 over MSRP (sometime more) I would have probably purchased it ... and seriously regretted it now that I'm in my Tesla.
I came from a 2006 Jaguar Portfolio sedan. Supercharged V8. Four point seating (like Tesla's new executive seating) and every feature that Jaguar could put in a car then. The company only made about 140 of them and every one was hand built to test their new aluminum body structure. They cost about $150,000 new.
I say this because I want to be VERY clear about my first two month's experience on Tesla when it comes to quality control. The Jaguar, while coming from a company owed by Ford at the time, was an expensive, hand built, aluminum body car. One that was used as a test bed for construction of the 2007 XJ sedans. My Tesla is fully loaded ... I checked off every box ... so the price was similar to the Jaguar. Its aluminum bodied and has four place seats (executive seating).
The quality of the two cars aren't even close. The Tesla has misaligned body panels, trim pieces, several chips already in the paint and several latches have already broken and/or cracked and the rear seat passengers are all but ignored. No separate HVAC controls except heated seats that they can't even control ... no power points for electronics (like a 12V power supply or USB port) and no way to adjust their seats. The Jaguar was a luxury car. One that absolutely coddled and took care of every passenger, no matter where they sat in the car. It was ridiculously fast for such a heavy car and had every comfort a car in this price range should have. And in the entire time I owned the car (from 2006 until two months ago) I never had any challenges with parts, trim or powertrains. Just normal service.
That being said, I absolutely LOVE LOVE LOVE the Tesla. While the Jaguar (and we also own Land Rovers) was a true "British Luxury" car, the Tesla is more refined luxury. Someone once said it was very feng shui and I would have to agree. Meaning every line in the car has a purpose. Every design leads to something useful. The car gets out of the way and lets you enjoy the drive. For the price, I would have loved to see better attention paid the details HOWEVER I purchased it knowing full well it was a low volume car and these things would be evident. It kind of reminds me of where Ferrari was ten years ago or so: expensive and low volume with the challenges that came with that. Over time they figured out how to overcome and Tesla will do the same.
Musk has said they implement about twenty changes A WEEK in the design of the car. So literally every car that comes off the line is slightly better than the previous. This car is literally a JOY to drive. I find reasons to run errands ... heck it reminds me of riding my motorcycle ... I constantly look for reasons to get out in it.
I will happily purchase another.
NOTE: as to servicing, I live in MD and there is only one service center. So far it hasn't been an issue and all broken latches have been replaced on site for me. There are several owners in my town and none have every had anything other than minor issues: all taken care of immediately. The team here is incredible and has made the initial series of questions simple to answer.
Again, remember I looked into this car for almost a year and a half before purchasing. It "fit" my life and business. I'm extremely pleased with the Tesla in ways I never imagined.
CharlesJR�
May 29, 2015
Cyclone This is my redundancy for the time being...
�
May 29, 2015
chriSharek I call that a "hybrid garage" Cyclone!�
May 29, 2015
Alexander I think the cost of body repairs vary widely on location and experience. Here in LA the costs are comparable - if not down right cheaper - then that of any other car.
I was in an accident a few months ago and the the cost to replace my rear bumper, front bumper, rear diffuser, rear under shield, front spoiler, paint, as well as a few little touch ups was only $2,973.86. That was at a Tesla certified shop here in LA.
When they quoted me the repairs they even took me around the shop and proudly showed off the seven other Tesla's they were currently working on (or about to start work on). They showed me this one (see bellow) that had hit a center divider on the freeway. They said the repairs for that one was just under $20,000:
So I think the cost of body work just depends on the location and the experience of the shop you take it to. This shop told me Tesla repairs tend to be cheaper because the most expensive components are protected within the core of the car (battery, drive unit, etc).�
May 29, 2015
Electricfan I pick it up one week from yesterday! Cannot wait! I will definitely post some pictures in the delivery thread. http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/10246-Owners-delivery-stories-photos-and-first-impressions/page146
How did it go getting the ticket corrected so the wrong guy doesn't wake up and find he's got a ticket on his record?�
May 29, 2015
bmah Well, kinda sorta. My experience with "+1" and "-1" with respect to statements comes from here:
Apache Voting Process
(Why yes I am a software engineer, why do you ask?)
That said I agree that Electricfan's use was appropriate.�
May 29, 2015
qwk My car has had a few problems since new, or near new that haven't been permanently fixed. Some of these are on the 3rd and 4th go around. They are definately very nice, and used to bring a model a loaner out(350 miles from SC), but fail to fix the issues. These are issues that new cars don't have, so obviously these are not difficult fixes. They just seem to patch stuff, and work on things that aren't broken. The last time the car was in for service(1 week), it came back with a non functioning A/C. When the ranger came, he found the low pressure sensor disconnected with the male end wrapped in electrical tape. Not something one would expect on cars in this price range. The car cannot hold an alignment for more than a few hundred miles(relatively smooth roads), and the answer I get is that BMW cars do the same thing. With that reasoning, Yugo's break down all the time so it's ok for ______ brand to break down also.
The car is pretty awesome compared to ICE cars, but if one lives far from an SC, ther is a very strong possibility that the headaches might outweigh the rewards. My car is going to picked up tomorrow(I have to meet at an Enterprise location 100 miles RT away), and a different SC is going to attempt to fix these issues. I'm not looking forward to driving an Enterprise junker for the next 2-4 weeks, especially because the realist in me knows that the odds of these issues being permanently taken care of are slim to none.
So as you can see, it's all relative. To some Tesla has great service, to me it's mediocre.�
May 29, 2015
chriSharek I took care of it earlier this week. A mess. The cop was very apologetic. Actually dropped off the ticket at my mailbox! I took care of the $10 fine earlier this week and since their credit card system wasn't working, i had to use an ATM and pay an additional $3 for the convenience. I took my son (15) with me so he could see the real "costs" associated with this . . . my time! All good. cs�
Aug 19, 2015
DruLaurence My dad has a 2014 MS 85. I am looking at getting a CPO'd MS P85. The one I really like at the moment is a 2012 P85S and has around 14K miles on it. He was telling me about possible issues in early models. Should I be scared of this particular car given it has a VIN number in the hundreds? Should I be looking at a newer CPO?�
Aug 19, 2015
mkspeedr We have 3 P85D (2014 and (2)2015) in my family. All three have been awesome. The next gen seats were swapped out of the 2014 after 6 months but everything has been great. I like the comment from CharlesJR - Tesla is like Ferrari was 15 years ago (1999 355 Ferrari had more issues) - expensive - low volume. All 3 Teslas are better than the 355 was...�
Aug 19, 2015
bmanke Coming from someone who sat on the fence for over a year - buy it. We love the car! Is it perfect? No. Minor trim alignment issues our are biggest problems. The car has performed flawlessly and now has 11k miles in three months! The experience is second to none and we are comparing it against BMW 535, X5 and Porsche 911.�
Aug 20, 2015
lolachampcar One of my converts (friends that bought one after driving mine) drove by my hangar the other day and I noticed a noise from the rear. The Service Center has confirmed it is the drive unit and it will likely be scheduled for replacement in the near future. This was a mid to late 2013 build. The car has about 30K miles on it.�
Aug 20, 2015
muleferg Hey lolachampcar. Still flying the MX?
Mule
�
Aug 20, 2015
lolachampcar Yep, yesterday and going out this morning as well.
Checking the wing and fuselage engine mounts before each flight now :0
Jens Van Dorpe on Twitter:
Nigel Hopkins practicing for worlds this last Sunday in France.�
Aug 20, 2015
stevezzzz That low a VIN implies it's a Signature S. My early Sig had 40K miles on it when I let it go, and was very reliable except for the 'dreaded clunk' I experienced once when the contactors opened on my A rev pack. Still on the original drive unit, and fit and finish were excellent. If you plan to keep the car for a long time, the Sigs will someday have value as collector cars.�
Aug 20, 2015
stevezzzz Yikes! Thank goodness he was at altitude and got out safely.
I celebrated National Aviation Day yesterday by going flying, myself. It was a beautiful evening, with a tinge of fall in the air.�
Aug 20, 2015
lolachampcar Steve,
Heading to Tenn next week to pack up the glider and head your way (Buena Vista) for some Co soaring�
Aug 21, 2015
ljwobker I have an April 2014 S85. I intentionally avoided things like the pano roof, the air suspension, and the 21" wheels because I wanted something simpler and presumably with fewer bells and whistles to break, so maybe that's relevant and maybe it's not... I've had zero meaningful mechanical or other problems so far. The pinch sensor on the trunk was misaligned causing false positives, they fixed this for free. A cracked door seal (almost certainly my fault somewhere) that made wind noise, but was fixed when I asked (for free). A number of proactive things that the service center did for me without asking, without charging, and without drama. The sunshade over the instrument cluster was making a little bit of a creaking sound, they fixed this for free. I'd much rather have a car with a few tiny things that i can get fixed by pleasant, competent service people than most of the alternatives. ;-)
I'm an engineer by training, and given where my car was in the production cycle, I'm very happy with how few things have gone wrong. I would have to assume that 18 months later, there are even fewer of these little things running around.�
Aug 22, 2015
hobbes RobStark posted this data on reliability from consumerreports in another thread, though it would fit here well:
US Market Situation and Outlook - Page 4�
Aug 22, 2015
AmpedRealtor I have a "classic" 2013 P85. I had some initial issues when the car was delivered - bubbles in the alcantara, some detailing issues, etc. But outside of that, mechanically the car has been rock solid. I have had a few DU replacements over noise, but even recent cars are getting those, so not unique to older vehicles. I have not had any real issues with the car. Nothing has failed or broken at all in the last 2 years and 30,000 miles. Well, the magnet glue on the charge port door melted, but that's it. A free Ranger visit took care of that!�
Aug 22, 2015
neroden Quality problems have been quite significant. So far they've all been fixed at no cost. Almost all of them have been design problems which were fixed by improved designs, which were retrofitted. "Production" quality problems (as opposed to design problems) are quite rare, as you'd expect in a car mostly built by robots, and all of those have been fixed at no cost very quickly from what I've been told.
* If you're planning to own the car past the extended warranty period, it's probably something to worry about. Tesla is concealing repair information so the car may be unrepairable outside Tesla after 8 years, and who knows what Tesla will charge.
* If you live more than 200 miles from a Service Center, the warranty repairs will cost you an astronomical amount just for transportation, so don't buy the car.
* Otherwise, if you plan to sell the car before 8 years and live near enough to a Service Center, there's nothing to worry about, buy the car. It has a much, much better repair record than the Audis my parents typically buy.�
Aug 22, 2015
Larry Chanin Hi Bruce,
I have a Signature P85 delivered to my home in December 2012. I say if you haven't already done so get off the fence and get one.
With 21500 miles I've had a few issues, but I've always had exceptional service at the Tampa Service Center and have never been inconvenienced. As you can see from recent posts, Tesla reliability has apparently improved with the newer models so my veteran experience may be less relevant.
I had an occasionally stuck handle. Tampa replaced all of them and I have never had a problem. Although I've never had a problem Tampa proactively replaced my 12 volt battery. Some wind noises were dealt with.
At 21500 miles I replaced my performance tires. On the way over to the service center I noticed a bubble in the 17" display and a low buzz-whine coming from the electric motor. Both the display and drive train were replaced under warranty while my tires were replaced. I had a loaner, the work took just a day. No fuss, no hassle.
I want to mention that some people may mistakenly think that replacing the drive train is a big deal. It of course is no where near the labor intense hassle of replacing an engine in a gasoline vehicle.
Larry�
Oct 4, 2015
MikeInFL A few DUs? While the warranty is awesome, I'm sorry to hear about that.�
Oct 4, 2015
jerry33 At 2.5 years and 57,700 miles quality problems have been almost nonexistent. One charger and charge port replaced very early, one triangle window adjusted shortly after delivery, two 12V batteries, and the tire alignment problems that the earlier cars had. That's no more than the Prius, and way less than the TDI.�
Oct 4, 2015
dgpcolorado An independent look at Model S reliability:
truedelta�
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