Aug 7, 2014
rainmaking Hello,
I have had my brand new MS for a month now and have not gotten the car charging at my office (via either 120V or NEMA 14-50 outlet). The UMC seems to error out or crash or something and the charging stops usually instantly but sometimes minutes after plugging in. This is a HUGE problem for me and Tesla seemed to go through motions of trying to help figure it out and then basically told me to F-off. I am pretty pissed, especially considering this UMC device is not tested for emissions and immunity per industry standards and is not UL approved.
My voltage is clean (looked at it with a scope while error happens) and electrician says no problems. I have even tried using a separate ground (full independent ground rod, isolated) because Tesla said noise on ground could be issue.
Any ideas how to solve my problem?? Other than get rid of the car...�
Aug 7, 2014
sublimaze1 That certainly is no bueno.
- will it charge at the service station?
- have you requested a new UMC?
- will it charge at a supercharger?
WJ�
Aug 7, 2014
dsm363 Why would a UMC need emissions testing? What do you mean by immunity? Tesla usually simply sends a replacement UMC when there are issues so ask for that. What did your local service center say?
What did Tesla say exactly when they told you to "F-off"? This is the opposite of every interaction I've ever had with Tesla. They may drop the ball now and then but I've never even heard of something like this in the last 5+ years.
Did you call Tesla Ownership and ask them? Getting rid of car seems a little over the top.�
Aug 7, 2014
Cottonwood The UMC flashes error codes that sometimes give you a hint; count the flashes. Tesla should have told you to do this. Here is the table.
Good Luck!
�
Aug 7, 2014
bonnie So it won't charge at the office, but it charges other places? Is that the only place it won't charge? Is that the only place you've used the UMC? Have you tried plugging it in elsewhere and charging your car? What were the results?�
Aug 7, 2014
mibaro2 Perhaps the breaker is tripping...maybe lower the voltage on the charge screen from 40 amps to 30amps and see if it works. The car normally would adjust the voltage itself, but not if voltage draw fails before it can get a read on it.�
Aug 7, 2014
GoBlue88 Yeah, these were all questions that popped into my mind.�
Aug 7, 2014
Cosmacelf Give me a break. This is either a troll, another lemon law scammer, or someone rather clueless. Get rid of the car because you can't charge at work? Presumably it charges fine at home? Who the heck puts a scope on a power line? Sorry, but the ranting post just raised my hackles. If you want help, don't run into a room yelling the world is coming to an end. Sheesh.�
Aug 7, 2014
rainmaking Answers
Yes, it charges at other places including my home. I NEED it to charge at my office. I am building a new house and will have a 220 outlet there but it's not finished yet so I am only on 120V outlet at home currently and it's not enough.
I took videos of the UMC and Tesla said it flashed 9 times. They seemed very interested (someone in California) in troubleshooting it and all of a sudden I got the email from regional service manager that told me it was my problem because it charges elsewhere and other vehicles don't charge at my location. We have a lot of equipment here, and a lot of PWM motor drives, but it is all UL/CE marked and this UMC seemingly doesn't like interference from something according to Tesla. They said the car "loses its pilot signal" and it is my problem. That is why I think it is a noise immunity or susceptibility problem. I think it is their problem if their device isn't tested to the IEC standards and certified by a notified body (like UL).
I am not a troll....and my problem is real and getting rid of a car that the manufacturer doesn't support does seem like a valid option (but not necessarily number one on my list).�
Aug 7, 2014
Lloyd I would try after hours, with everything else turned off at your office. If you charge ok then, great. Then power up individual peices of equipment and see if you can isolate which one is not compatible. A dc motor throwing spikes to ground may be subject to failure soon, and your boss may thank you.�
Aug 7, 2014
CmdrThor Sell your UMC and buy a portable UL listed J1772 EVSE.�
Aug 7, 2014
dmckinstry If the problem is location specific (i.e. the only location at which failure occurs) the problem is with the location, not the UMC or car. That's the only way I could interpret this, and I suspect the way most here would interpret it.�
Aug 7, 2014
efusco I bet you're getting a 'dirty' signal at that work outlet. I don't understand how you can think that Tesla is to blame if the UMC works everywhere but one location. Clearly there's an issue with the power at your work. Maybe another outlet is available that would be cleaner? Maybe see if there is some public charging you can use? And 120v at home should be plenty for most situations. You should be able to get at least 36-40 miles or range over a 12 hour period on that. And the UL listing BS is totally irrelevant here. If the outlet you're trying to use is that dirty then whether UL listed or not you're not going to be able to charge.
Consider this...the UMC is PROTECTING your $80k+ car from being damaged by a dirty signal...you should be thanking Tesla, not cursing them.�
Aug 7, 2014
Cottonwood Boy! Error codes off the chart!!! I would do the counting yourself and make sure. I checked the latest UMC on-line manual and the chart that I listed above is up to date.
If you really think it is noise, try some of the clamp on ferrite filters. They work pretty well and are easy to install, but you have to fabricate an extension box that includes them. I would put one on each power wire line, line, and neutral, then a larger one on all of the power lines together. Don't put one on the ground wire. A filter on each wire gets rid of differential noise, and a filter on the bundle gets rid of common mode noise.
Here is an example: Amazon.com : Ferrite Core 1/4 Cord Noise Suppressor : Vehicle Amplifier Noise Filters : Car Electronics
The half inch one will probably go over the UMC cord. If so, just give that a try by itself before trying to do all the wires individually.
Good luck!�
Aug 7, 2014
dsm363 Yep. Raising hell when the problem is isolated to office means there isn't an issue with the UMC.�
Aug 7, 2014
bonnie Perhaps 'all of a sudden' you got an email after their initial interest, because they DID troubleshoot and it was not the UMC. So they were letting you know it was not something they could resolve (rather than saying 'go pound sand', which is a behavior I've not seen them exhibit).
It appears that the UMC is operating as intended and is protecting your car from everything you've said so far. I don't get why you're angry with Tesla over this. Just because things are marked UL or CE at your office doesn't mean the power is clean. (FYI, CE mark for almost everything in the US is self-certified and rarely means anything at all. There are exceptions. You need to know what standard they're declaring conformity with, what that standard requires in terms of both testing and review of test records, and who their Notified Body is.) The UL mark could be applied for a different use case. You don't know, neither do I.
From what you're saying, if the UMC did have a UL mark on it and behaved exactly the same way, you would not then blame Tesla? I'm having trouble following your reasoning on this.
I'm sure you're frustrated because you do need to charge at the office. But I'm not sure your frustration is aimed at the right target. Kind of sounds like it may not be, given the fact that everything works correctly when plugged in other places ...
- - - Updated - - -
Moderator note: Thread title updated to be more accurate, less inflammatory�
Aug 7, 2014
andrewket You'll catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. Approach the problem as "I could use some help because I really need to be able charge at my office and it isn't working."
You have received some good suggestions here. Go try them and report back.�
Aug 7, 2014
pgiralt Can you post the videos to YouTube so we can see them? Does the car display any error on the instrument cluster when it won't charge? Sometimes the messages there are useful.�
Aug 7, 2014
Vip Go to plugshare.com. Find someone in your area with an outlet that you are having trouble with. See if you have any issues charging there. If no problems charging then your outlet at work has issues. Then Tesla has no responsibility in resolving this.�
Aug 7, 2014
AmpedRealtor Tesla neither told you to pound sand nor to "f-off". All Tesla did was tell you that based upon their analysis, the UMC is not at fault. Beyond that, what do you expect them to do? By your own statement, the UMC works everywhere else and only fails at your office location. Therefore, the problem is not the UMC. The problem is at your work location. I can't see how this is a Tesla issue. I don't think it was very nice the way you mischaracterized Tesla's response.�
Aug 7, 2014
markb1 It seems to me that Tesla should at least diagnose the problem, and if it's the power source, tell the OP what they found. That way, this information could be communicated to an electrician (not at Tesla's expense) that could fix the problem.�
Aug 7, 2014
bonnie It would be nice if they had the bandwidth to do stuff like that, but I don't expect them to provide an electrical inspection service, too.�
Aug 7, 2014
Vip Respectfully disagree markb1. Tesla looked into the situation and they determined that the product was not at fault. Then the responsibility lies with owner. I think the OP needs to explore other options. He charges at home with a 120V but needs a 220V. So he needs to go to another 220V and see if it works. If it does then OP needs to figure out what is going on with the outlet at work. If it doesn't then he can take that back to Tesla and possibly get another UMC.�
Aug 7, 2014
GoBlue88 Hold on, back this train up. Your own evidence says it isn't the UMC but rather a power issue at your place of employment. What exactly do you expect Tesla to do? Would you blame Apple if your iPhone wouldn't charge on a dead circuit in your house? Would you then expect Apple to hire an electrician to come fix said circuit?
Of course not, that's just silly. Just like it is silly to expect Tesla to figure out the problem with your employer's power issue. They are 100% correct in saying it isn't their problem.
"Getting rid of the car" because of an electricity problem on the plug your are using is a bit extreme, don't you think?
�
Aug 7, 2014
Doug_G Automotive parts are exempted from those regulations. Since the UMC is supplied with the car they are not obligated to get those certifications. I really doubt Tesla would sell an unsafe product in any case; it is not to their advantage whatsoever! So I'm sure they have taken appropriate measures to ensure product safety.
The HPWC is however fully tested and rated, as it is sold separately.�
Aug 7, 2014
markb1 I'm not suggesting they provide an electrical inspection service. But they should try to debug the problem on their end. If the UMC is shutting down, they should be able to determine something about why it's shutting down.�
Aug 7, 2014
TexasEV Sadly we'll probably hear more stories like this as Tesla moves from early adopters towards the mainstream. Buyers who have the money but not the interest or patience to deal with some of the challenges of using this new technology.�
Aug 7, 2014
qwk To be fair, the UMC is not up to the task of charging at 40A, and Tesla's solution is to limit the thing through the car software.�
Aug 7, 2014
markb1 Mine seems to be up to task.�
Aug 7, 2014
dsm363 Edit: meant to reply to OP instead.�
Aug 7, 2014
dsm363 I charged at 40A for well over a year without any issues. They are probably on the conservative side with their tolerances as risking problems during charging is not in Tesla's best interest.�
Aug 7, 2014
Cosmacelf I would try to find another UMC that you can borrow and see if a second UMC has similar problems at your work. Or ask another Tesla owner to try charging at your work as a test to see if that works. The problem could be in the car charger too.
What voltage does your car register on the dash when you plug in? When it starts? The other suggestions here were good too. Try charging after machinery has been turn off at work to see if that helps. Try charging from a different work plug. Try using line filters.�
Aug 7, 2014
markb1 Now you're confusing me with the OP.�
Aug 7, 2014
dsm363 I am. So sorry. Reading this on my iPhone.
Tesla should try and determine what is going on and it looks like they did. The fact that work is the only place things don't narrows things down. He should pay an electrician to check that out first or see if other Tesla's have problems there first.�
Aug 7, 2014
dsm363
I understand your problem is real but lack of proper charging at home at faulty charging at work isn't Tesla's fault.
How exactly should Tesla fix this without sending an inspector out there? The same UMC works at every single location except your work location. Could it be possible the problem is at work with the electrical power?
The have debugged the problem and likely feel it is related to the power. You never answered any of the questions posed before.
Did you take UMC to service center or call ownership to ask for a new one?
Why would a UMC need emissions testing?
What do you mean by immunity?
What did your local service center say?
What did Tesla say exactly when they told you to "F-off"?
Did you call Tesla Ownership and ask them for help?�
Aug 7, 2014
hcsharp I agree. At least by my standards which are obviously different than Tesla's and many of you here. When a cable ALWAYS gets warm at 40A, then you are wasting energy. In addition, it bugs me a little to hear Tesla accuse owners of their power supply having "noise on ground" and then dismissing any problems with the UMC. In my experience this noise is frequently generated by the UMC itself. I have discovered this "noise on ground" issue with a lot of UMCs that I have tested. Not saying that's what's wrong with the OP's equipment or that he's handling it correctly. Just providing another perspective.�
Aug 7, 2014
GoBlue88 It seems from the description is that is exactly what they did.�
Aug 7, 2014
rainmaking I get it....this is an enthusiast forum, with mostly Tesla lovers. I wish right now I could be one of you. But instead I have bought a new car that does not work as it is supposed to. And of course while they didn't tell me to f-off or pound sand literally...it feels the same to me. There is nothing wrong with the power at my office. Tesla sent an electrician twice and he said it was the car (or UMC). My electrician says it is not the power and if another device is interfering with it then it is the car's fault because everything else is UL approved. These regulations are in place just for this reason....imagine having a solar system installed in your house and when it is on the car won't charge. The PV inverter is both CE and UL approved and has passed both emissions and susceptibility testing. The car hasn't. Are you still going to blame the PV inverter? The city electrical inspector likely won't even allow me to plug in the car because it isn't UL marked...it's the law! Whoever said that since it is a vehicle it is exempt is mistaken...these are local codes and have not been altered for Tesla's or Nissan's sake. If someone has a copy of the 2014 NEC and can post an excerpt that states that vehicle charging equipment shall be exempt from UL harmonized standards, I would like to see it.
To those of you that did post some helpful suggestions, thank you. I have tried 120V charging from outlets in different parts of the building and fed from different panels all with the same result. Charge cable fault is what comes up in the car, and yes Tesla tried three other UMC's. When on the 208 outlet the voltage is around 213 until the failure. Absolutely nothing happens on the line side at this moment....no fluctuation other than the one or so volt rise when the car stops charging. Because of the physical panel and outlet layout there is little room to play with line filtering, but I will study that more. I really shouldn't need to for reasons I stated, but naturally I am the one being inconvenienced by this. If I used a J1772 charging station, wouldn't I still need to plug in the UMC?�
Aug 7, 2014
efusco did the other 3 UMCs work at your office location? If not, then it's still the electrical supply to blame. The iPhone example given previously is right on target. The UMC works everywhere else then it's not the UMC, I still believe there is noise or some other issue with the ground or something at your office. Your "iPhone" works fine, it's the charging juice to blame.
And no, you don't use the UMC, there's a J1772 adapter that came with your car that attaches to the J-1772 connector that goes to the car.�
Aug 7, 2014
GoBlue88 No, in a J1772 charging station you use that station's cable and just attach the J1772 adapter on the end.
It might have been helpful in the OP if you had posted the information in your most recent post rather than saying that Tesla had told you to "f-off" because the charging cable doesn't function at work. You might have received a better response. That said, even with your latest description, I still don't know what you expect Tesla to do and given that they actually sent electricians out to your place of work twice, I think they've actually gone way above and beyond. You think Ford would send someone out to check out your office if for some reason one of their plug-in hybrids wouldn't charge there?
There's obviously too much noise in the lines in your building. Unless there is some way to filter it out, there is nothing that physically can be done on Tesla's part.�
Aug 7, 2014
dsm363 It is still an issue with your office if you can use that UMC at multiple other locations with no issue. If you 'must' charge at work and it is a long term issue then yes, install a J1772 station. That way you can leave your UMC in the car.
Tesla sent an electrician? Didn't realize they did this. If a Tesla hired electrician said the car is the issue what did Tesla service say when you told them?
Again, have you called your service center and talked with the manager or ownership?�
Aug 7, 2014
Lloyd I had an issue some time ago where a co-generation plant down the road (2 miles) from me was throwing spikes into the system. Everything ran normally in my house, but prevented ANY ev from charging for more than about 10 minutes. I had to call the power company to put a monitor on my line. They found the problem and corrected it with the co-gen company. I never contacted Tesla as it was evident to me that it was a "power" problem, and not with Tesla.�
Aug 7, 2014
hcsharp UL approval is 99% testing for safety, not for compatibility with your electrical service.
In fact many people have been unable to charge their Tesla (and other EVs) from older or poor quality solar system inverters that had UL and CE markings. The same is true of a lot of generators. UL and CE testing generally have little to do with functionality and a lot to do with safety.
I don't think you are correct about the law. Do you really think Tesla sold tens of thousands of cars and told people to plug them in illegally?
I have to give you credit for one thing. Pointing out that the Model S is a bit more sensitive to dirty power than most (all?) other EVs. I wouldn't give up and sell the car, though. Try the filters that some have suggested. Try finding a temporary charging solution until you can charge on 240v at home. See if an HPWC would be better at work. I don't blame you for being upset because you paid a lot of money for a car that's now difficult to charge, but consider that it may not be Tesla's fault, and you may have to try some other solutions, at least temporarily.�
Aug 7, 2014
rainmaking They sent an electrician twice and that is how it got elevated to someone in California. After some back and forth troubleshooting I was told that they would figure out the problem 'even if it meant flying to Florida'. A week or so later I got the email stating it was my problem.�
Aug 7, 2014
dsm363 Is it just possible maybe they are right? If the power at your office really is that bad there is little Tesla can do. This is a temporary problem anyway was you'll have charging at work. Can you not install a 14-50 at your current house even if you are leaving soon? If this is really causing you this much angst and that would solve your problem then it is worth a few hundred bucks.�
Aug 7, 2014
pgiralt If there is nothing "wrong" there is at the very least something "different"
Exactly what did they say? Do you have any report or documentation from them?
Just because something is UL approved doesn't suddenly make it immune to misbehaving or malfunctioning. Obviously there is something different in your environment and you're going to have to figure out what that is.
I will turn this back on you and ask you to quote the part of the NEC that says that every device connected to a NEMA14-50 outlet must be listed (their terminology for having a mark from a certified testing lab - not necessarily the UL). I don't think you will find anything like this in the NEC, but I haven't read the whole thing so I may be mistaken. Obviously this is not illegal because Tesla would have been stopped long ago. When my inspector came to inspect my 14-50 outlet, he had similar concerns about lack of listing markings, but after discussing it with Tesla, he passed the inspection, so they must have told him something to help him understand the law.
What kind of building is this? You mentioned 208 so it must be a commercial 3-phase service. Does the building have 480/277 coming in and then transformers that step that down to 208? Don't know why that would make a difference, but I was curious. What kind of business is this? What kind of equipment is in the building and neighboring businesses?
So are you saying that it does charge successfully for some time before failing? If so, how long does it work for before the failure? Would still really like to know what the LED on the UMC looks like when the failure happens.
Well, obviously *something* happens because the UMC is not just randomly deciding to not work at this one location. How are you measuring the voltage at the time the problem happens? I'd look to see if something strange is going on with the neutral or ground at the time
This is good advice and I think you should look into it as well.
No - you will just need the J1772 to Tesla adaptor that came with your car. This is a passive device that just converts one plug to another.�
Aug 7, 2014
rainmaking Here is a UL document that is quite clear about requirements in the NEC:
�
Aug 7, 2014
TexasEV Your UMC works elsewhere, Tesla sent 3 UMCs to try at your building and all failed, and you say Tesla was just "going through the motions" of trying to help? What more did you want them to do? Your attack on Tesla was just over the top, regardless of this being an enthusiast site or not. At some point you need to accept the problem is with the power in that one specific building, and UL on other equipment has nothing to do with it. 40,000 cars are charging just fine IF there aren't significant voltage fluctuations.
It sounds like you haven't educated yourself much about charging if you didn't know you that charging from J1772 stations with the supplied adapter doesn't use the UMC. Surely there is a J1772 charging station somewhere you can charge temporarily while your house is getting ready.�
Aug 7, 2014
pgiralt Section 625 of the NEC is very clear that it applies to "hard-wired conductive connections of battery charging equipment" The UMC is not hard-wired, so that entire section of the NEC does not apply.�
Aug 7, 2014
rainmaking The adaptor I have still needs the UMC in the middle. Yes, something is different but meets code and approvals. As for UL being for safety, it all depends on what kind of device. If you contract with UL to list/mark a device the first step is to figure out the applicable standards based on the device you are trying to mark. It is also for functionality and interoperability with other things to insure problems like this don't happen.�
Aug 7, 2014
bonnie What adapter do you have??? Could you post a picture of that? Both ends.�
Aug 7, 2014
pgiralt Again, you're assuming that everything in the building is operating correctly. Things break and start operating outside of the tested standards. You didn't answer any of my questions so hard for me to give you any more help.
As for the adaptor, you should have one of these:
Shop Tesla Gear SAE J1772
One side goes to the car, the other side to the J1772 EVSE.�
Aug 7, 2014
dsm363 Pgiralt brought up some good questions if you could answer those.�
Aug 7, 2014
rainmaking Their report states that there is nothing wrong with customer's wiring, and there are no abnormalities on the line at the time of failure.
Light industrial, we have lots of equipment with motor controls. Our main transformer is 208. We are the most industrial power user in the area.
As I stated in another post, usually immediately but occasionally a minute or two. Once about an hour...
I used a Fluke scopemeter set to trigger on any event.
�
Aug 7, 2014
dsm363 I think your answer got lost inside the quote.�
Aug 7, 2014
rainmaking
The language about section 625.16 seems pretty clear to me that it would cover the UMC unless your mind is made up that Tesla is right here.�
Aug 7, 2014
pgiralt What are you measuring with the fluke? Are you just measuring hot to hot or are you measuring the ground at all?
Is your business a 24/7 shop or does the equipment shut down in the evenings? Wondering what would happen if you try charging after hours. Does it work better when the industrial gear is down?�
Aug 7, 2014
dsm363 Well your choices are pretty clear. The UMC works every single place except work. You can figure out what the issue is with your power, install an EVSE, upgrade your home charging or sell the car. Or take the car and UMC to a service center and have them check it out.�
Aug 7, 2014
Cosmacelf Have you tried to get a different Tesla to charge at your building?
From the symptoms mentioned, if there is a Tesla problem, the problem could be the charger in the car itself. Nothing to do with the UMC(s). Easy way to check is to get another Tesla Model S to charge at your work.
You know, you have been a very hard person to help. You charge into this forum with post #1 being a rant against Tesla. You don't provide anywhere NEAR all the information you have. When challenged by people trying to help, you then dribble out new information (like 3 UMCs have been tried). Frankly, I'm now done trying to help you. You really are an *******, even if you might have a valid problem.�
Aug 7, 2014
GoBlue88 Still scratching my head trying to figure out exactly what you think Tesla should do about the bad power in your employer's building.�
Aug 8, 2014
efusco Hmmm, I don't think so. In fact, I can't think how that could possibly be.
Above is the photo of the J-1772 adapter from the TeslaMotors.com web site. The connection end shown is what plugs into the car. The not-show side is what the J-1772 cord/handle plugs into. No need or any way to use the UMC component.
Here's a video showing exactly how to do it:
- - - Updated - - -
one final thought, and I realize it's not ideal, but have you tried dialing back the amperage just a tad...maybe down to 10 amps from the default 12? I've had a couple of J1772 chargers that tried to charge at 30 amps but I would get errors and charging would stop, but then dialing back the amperage to just 28-29 amps seemed to do the trick. I assumed it was noise in the line or some other minor issue with wiring.�
Aug 8, 2014
CmdrThor Here is an example of an EVSE that is listed by a certification agency that might work for you: HCS-40P, 30A, 240V Charging, 25 Cord, NEMA 14-50 Plug | ClipperCreek Vehicle Charging Station
If that doesn't work, then you can return or sell it and you'd know the UL listing or lack thereof is not the issue with the UMC.�
Aug 8, 2014
NigelM @rainmaking: the entire problem boils down to one of three issues:
1. You have an on-board charging problem. If the car charges fine elsewhere you can eliminate this possibility.
2. You have a UMC problem. If the UMC works elsewhere you can eliminate this possibility.
3. You have a power issue at your building. If other UMCs don't function properly there, then bingo!
Banging on the drum of "my building is ok" is pretty clearly not going to fix the issue and will just continue the headache. Just follow a common sense process of elimination.
There's really nothing else to say.�
Aug 8, 2014
dsm363 Well said!
I agree it's very clear what the issue is and that is the building's power as you said. Some people simply get something into their mind and reuse to listen to logic or look at the facts.�
Aug 8, 2014
efusco To add to that, banging of the drum of "You are all Tesla enthusiasts" as an excuse to ignore the facts that we're telling you won't solve the problem either. As laid out above, the issues are pretty clear cut. I know you're very very frustrated with this, and who wouldn't be. But I suggest that if you can accept that there is some sort of unusual and, as yet, undiagnosed issue with the power at your workplace and temporarily find an alternative means of charging until your home 240v service is hooked up, I think you'll find that you're going to be very satisfied with Tesla and your car.�
Aug 8, 2014
Chris TX I couldn't tell from the pages in this thread, but has the OP EVER successfully done a Level 2 charge session? If it works with the 120V adapter on the UMC but not 220V, maybe there is something wrong with the second leg in the car's onboard charger.
Rainmaking, go to a public L2 charging station and see if will take a charge.
Also, have you ever tried using a Supercharger? If both of those work, the car is working properly and the focus would need to be on the UMC (doubtful since 3 have been tried) or the power at work. Dirty/noisy power will trip the UMC's safety measures to protect the car's onboard charger.
One last thing, where is the UMC being used?
What's around it?
Anything that could emit strong EMF or EMP?
Is it next to a transformer?
Large pump motor?
HVAC equipment?
Is this 208V outlet dedicated all the way back to the breaker? 208V is already low enough. If something is causing it to dip below L2 voltages, it's going to shut off.�
Aug 8, 2014
hcsharp I think rainmaking is suggesting that Tesla's engineering is inadequate and the charging system design is too sensitive to mildly-dirty power. I suspect he thinks that if the car and charger were designed to comply with some standard that it isn't, such as UL, that it would charge at his workplace. He even went so far as to say that an inspector would probably tell him he couldn't plug the car in because it, and the UMC, are not UL listed. Possibly this could be issue #4 that Nigel didn't mention. Since all other appliances appear to work in the same building, it seems only reasonable for him to believe the problem is with Tesla's car or charging system.
I think rainmaker is correct in pointing out that Tesla's cars are sensitive to power supply anomalies. That wasn't his point at first, and I'm still not sure it is, and I can't help but wonder what else we're missing. I'm not defending his lack of providing all the facts up front, initial rant/blaming, or assertions about certifications, but I have to say that Tesla's charging systems have proven to be weak in many respects.
There's a neighborhood in South Burlington, VT where my car won't charge (along with at least 2 other Teslas) but Leafs, Volts, and iMievs will charge just fine. It's mostly light industrial.�
Aug 8, 2014
arg That's something of an overstatement, at least for CE.
Leaving aside the fact that CE is all self-certified and so many people just stick on the CE mark without doing any testing and hope they won't get caught, CE marking requires compliance with the EMC directive and therefore extensive testing if you are taking it seriously. For some categories of product, this is much more onerous than the safety requirements.
Certainly the intent of EMC testing is that that tested equipment will work together - in an ideal world, the susceptibility tests ensure that all equipment will tolerate a certain level of interference, and the emissions tests ensure that nothing puts out more than that level. In reality, there are huge variations in the way products are installed and used and the testing can only cover 'typical' conditions, so offers no guarantee that things will work in any particular installation even if all the equipment has been tested. Also, there are grey areas in formal testing - for susceptibility, the test is that the equipment has to 'operate in accordance with the manufacturer's specification' during or after testing, so sometimes you pass the test by changing the product specification to say that a certain loss of performance is acceptable rather than fixing the underlying problem.
Although imperfect, testing does improve things: I have often seen equipment that fails test giving problems in the real world (usually when I've been testing my gear and find that some of the third-party equipment that it interfaces to goes wrong during the test - such equipment then also giving trouble in the field).
Testing also helps in assigning blame in cases like the OP's (assuming his case is indeed an EMC issue, as everyone seems to believe but hasn't yet been proven). It isn't sufficient to say 'the car works OK elsewhere, therefore the problem is with your other equipment' - is the other equipment emitting too much or is the car too susceptible?
Also worth noting that other car manufacturers (GM for example) have their own standards for EMC testing of sub-assemblies supplied for their cars, often much stricter than the regulatory tests - though this is more about making sure the various parts of the car work together rather than outside issues.�
Aug 8, 2014
bonnie ... only if your CE mark is declaring conformity with the EMC directive. There are a lot of other directives you could be declaring conformity with & totally ignoring EMC. People see the CE mark and just assume the right stuff must be covered, but unless you look at the declaration, there's no way of actually knowing.
Completely agree that the self-certifying aspect has resulted in a large number of companies just slapping the CE mark on their products and hoping for the best. It's a joke.�
Aug 9, 2014
stopcrazypp I have two UL listed external hard drive power supplies that cause noticeable amounts of interference to a TV tuner (also with UL listed power supply) I have. So a UL marking does not seem to have anything to do with compatibility or lack of noise or interference.�
Aug 9, 2014
GSP If I were the OP I would:
1) expedite installation of 240 V charging at home. Maybe install a temporary solution.
2) look for charging within walking distance of work
3) try a public J1772 charger to see if it works
4) try a third party plug-in EVSE, perhaps a UL listed one like the AeroVironment TurboCord (120/240 V, 15A for $650, very small and portable), or a clipper creek plug-in EVSE (15 A for $400, 20 A for $500, 30 A for $600, if I remember correctly)
GSP�
Aug 9, 2014
Seattle All these lists are great. He's in south florida he/she says, so there are lots of tesla owners there. And there are superchargers. I'm just piling on here with suggestions, but we all just want this person to have some understanding and success.
It's very likely the problem is the power supply inside your office is a little dirty, not too much to affect a lot of industrial equipment, but the tesla is more sensitive to this. They are trying to keep the car safe in adverse conditions. We are sorry you have run into this, but the Tesla is not a piece of voodoo electronics that only works when the moon is not out. It's pretty reliable and we should be able to figure out what the problem is. At the same time, like everything on the earth it can fail - but based on what you've told us, with multiple umcs, and your car working elsewhere, it's probably a building power supply issue.
I know others provided most of these things to try, but I wrote my own list with a little more explanation.
1. Try lower amperage when charging. I had exactly your results when I first got my car and was charging 120v at a hotel. It would stop charging at a random point, usually after I walked back to my room. Turning down the amperage to a really small value (like 8 amps) helped. This can happen with 240 v charging too. If the power supply can't provide reliable amperage and voltage at the charging rate, it will shut itself down.
2. Go to a supercharger and see if your car works (assuming you have an 85 or a 60 with the 2k payment). If it doesn't work, that should be fixed.
3. Try a public j1772 charger (find via plugshare.com). They are everywhere, and there are even lots of free ones. It's always nice to check comments that someone recently had success there. Blink chargers are often broken.
4. You could try a random 120v outlet somewhere near your office. That will probably work, and if 2, 3, 4 work you can be sure it's something about your office's power.
5. You could try to find someone else nearby who could try your office. You probably want to preserve your privacy, but if someone else's car tried your office during working hours when charging is delicate, that could give you more confidence its the building.
Good luck. I just want you to have success and understanding of your issue. Let us know what you can figure out.�
Aug 9, 2014
hiroshiy Isn't Fluke Scopemeter an Oscilloscope? If so wouldn't it be enough to see logs from the Scopemeter during the charge (stop)?�
Aug 9, 2014
TES-E From what I have heard, Teslas are very fussy about grounding. Are you SURE that your office power grounding is up to snuff? Built in ground fault could be shutting it down.�
Aug 9, 2014
AmpedRealtor Just bite the bullet and install a 14-50 at your current home. Obviously that's easier than continuing to blame Tesla for something that is a problem at your work location, and much cheaper than selling your Model S and incurring the depreciation.
Can we consider this issue closed?�
Aug 9, 2014
rainmaking Many of the recent replies are helpful and thank you for that. Today I put in a 14-50 outlet on the temp box at the new house. I spend a lot of time there so that should help for now. Unfortunately the issue won't be resolved until I have a solution at the office. I will try some line filtering there and if that isn't successful then buy a 1772 charger to bypass the UMC.
Based on the conditions occurring when the charge fails the most likely cause is the power supply for the electronics in the UMC itself shuts off or faults, resetting its cpu. Most of the time there is no flashing code, the light goes from the normal charging pattern to solid green. As for the noise on the line, it is in the mV range and very hard to analyze without employing a spectrum analyzer or similar instrument. It would take a lot of work and is upsetting to me that it is my problem when the device with the trouble is not tested to the relevant standards. I admit there still could be a problem but the manufacturer would have the fall-back position of having done the testing.
Thanks again to those of you that were trying to help.�
Aug 9, 2014
hcsharp Usually when the UMC goes from charging pattern to solid green it means the car has stopped charging and the fault was not detected by the UMC. I realize the same thing could theoretically happen if the cpu was reset. I think you should isolate the problem better. Does the car sense a problem and stop, or does the UMC have a fault and stop? Do you get the "External Charger Error" when the UMC goes to solid grn? Or something different?�
Aug 9, 2014
rainmaking Tesla says car loses pilot signal. Car says charge cable fault.�
Aug 9, 2014
hiroshiy If the noise in the mV range it must be higher frequency, like MHz range? Then line filters should work very well I guess.�
Aug 9, 2014
Cosmacelf In another thread, it was mentioned that the Clipper Creek EVSEs have very good line filtering, FWIW.�
Aug 9, 2014
hiroshiy Actually if UMC contains a microprocessor it should already include some form of line filtering already... So I'm not sure it's working or not.�
Aug 10, 2014
AmpedRealtor Tesla's HPWC is UL and CE certified. Why don't you try that?�
Aug 10, 2014
stopcrazypp His issue is with the office charging. I don't think he would want to install a permanent HPWC at the office. Something cheaper like some of the small third party portable EVSEs can be tried to eliminate the UMC as an issue.
It does not appear his particular UMC is defective (if three others have been tried), but it could be that the UMCs are more sensitive in general than other EVSEs.�
Aug 13, 2014
Chris TX The problem is, if the power going through the UMC is bad enough to trip the safety features of the UMC, do you really want it piped into your car with another EVSE???�
Aug 13, 2014
hcsharp You might have something with this theory. Most modern micros will reset if the voltage on one of the A/D pins goes too high. There's several A/D measurements. Those pins are much more sensitive than the power supply to the micro on a lot of devices and it's often harder to filter them. You need to try a Clipper Creek charger and see what happens.�
Không có nhận xét nào:
Đăng nhận xét