Aug 19, 2012
smorgasbord Lately I've been reading a number of posts from people configuring their Model S, and this being their first EV, are exhibiting what I'm calling "Charging Anxiety," or CA.
That's the fear of not being able to charge quickly enough.
As a result of CA, people are configuring their Model S's with twin chargers and even getting the HPC for home. As myself and several Roadsters have recommended, the HPC at home is never needed and charging on the road at higher than 40 amps is almost never available. So, that $2700 is almost always better spent on something else.
I'm asking Roadster and early Model S owners to record in this thread the times when they've needed to and used more than 40 amps of charging. Here's my complete list for over 14 months and 14,000 miles of ownership:
#1 - Trip from SF Bay Area to Santa Barbara. Charged at 70 amp Rabbobank in Salinas & Atascadero both ways. Not my Roadster, btw.
#2 - Trip from SF Bay Area to Morro Bay. Charged at 70 amps at Rabbobank in Atascadero going there and in Salinas coming back.
#3 - Trip from SF Bay Area to Santa Barbara. Charged at 70 amp Rabbobank in Atascadero both ways. Watched movie during one of the charges.
That's it.
Now, I have used HPCs at other times, but it didn't save me any time. Even yesterday in Carmel Valley Tesla graciously put my Roadster on their HPC during the test drive I was a passenger for. However, if they had put me on the UMC at 40 amps, it would have been just fine, including driving home at very fast freeway speeds. I had over 80 miles of range left when I got home.
If the Rabbobanks along 101 did not already have 70 amp HPCs, I would not have ordered my Model S with Twin Chargers. Everything else on the road, except Tesla stores, is 40 amps or less, and I've never felt my charging at home wasn't fast enough, even with Roadster owner friends visiting. With the upcoming SuperCharger network, I don't believe we're going to be getting new HPCs on the road for the next few to several years. It's either going to be SuperChargers or 30ish amp J1772s on the road, with the occasional 40-amp RV park connection. The twin chargers don't help with any of those.
Save your money or buy something more useful is my advice. I'm hoping other Tesla owners will record their experiences here.�
Aug 19, 2012
bonnie Totally concur.
I've needed the 70amp chargers on a roundtrip drive from my home near Sacramento to Newport Beach. And I'm looking forward to using them on a trip up to Portland/Seattle at the end of this month. I don't need them at the hotel I stay at -- I need them wherever I need to recharge on the road. So that's two trips in a little over a year.
The only other time it's handy is when I've stopped at Tesla Menlo Park to get charged up before heading home again.
I've NEVER needed more than 40amps here at the house. Not once have I gotten up and not had full range in the car.
Edit: In full disclosure, I am considering putting in a 70amp line. But that's not for me - that's for the various friends who come through the area and need a place to charge. I'm happy with my NEMA 14-50 outlet.�
Aug 19, 2012
ModelS1079 Okay. It's me. I think I may have succumbed to CA (charge anxiety, aka Chargitis). When the realities of car buying and my desire for audio and tech superceded by desire for range, I went 60kWh for my Model S. And then in set in. First as an idea a (CF) bulb in my head went on that said: "add a twin charger". I have a 70 amp line heading to the garage. So I can use it on this rare times I head from our llavce in new Hampshire to home near Boston and onwards the same day to cape cod to see family. Then someone noted that 70 amp charging stations do exist "out there". And the supercharge may have some odd extra fee. And it's a little abusive of the battery. So I added a twin charger to my configuration.
So I'd welcome being talked out of it and maybe even back into an 85kWh. Or I'd welcome reassurance that my thoughts make sens. The point is I really don't know enough to know what I really know. EV Rookie, consumed by Chargitis.�
Aug 19, 2012
jerry33 I'm thinking that charing anxiety is more for those who don't live on the west coast.�
Aug 19, 2012
bonnie My location has nothing to do with how I charge my EV at night. (But yes - it does have everything to do with roadtrips.) If I moved to the middle of the country in a spot with very little infrastructure, I'd still install only a NEMA 14-50 40amp outlet. I've never needed more.�
Aug 19, 2012
PhatCat Thanks smorgasboard and bonnie. I came to this conclusion but have absolutely no EV experience to back it up. Better to put that $$ toward Performance.�
Aug 19, 2012
jerry33 Agreed. It's road trips I was thinking of.�
Aug 19, 2012
Zythryn Not in my case (MN roadster owner here).
I have never charged on more than a 40amp plug, and never felt the need for faster charging. 30 miles per hour of charge has always been plenty with the range I have.
I can certainly understand wanting faster charging I you are using your full range or more each day.
With EVs like the Leaf or Miev that probably isn't that uncommon.�
Aug 19, 2012
jerry33 Most of the trips I take are just over 600 miles each way. (Three so far this year.)�
Aug 19, 2012
ChadS More agreement; have never needed anywhere near 70A at home. I only have a 50A outlet (so I can only pull 40A), and not only has that always been enough--I set the charge rate even lower, and never recall needing the full 40A. However, I do remember at least once that I needed 32A, so 24A hasn't always been enough for me. Obviously you need to consider your own driving; somebody on these forums mentioned coming home on Friday from a long commute and then needing to take off for the weekend that evening, so they needed 70A at home. I work at home, so I never hit that issue. Others want 70A at home for visitors, even though they themselves won't use it.
I am on the West coast and have taken several long road trips; there I do use the full 70A from the HPCs. But aside from the fact that most people don't have 70A chargers available for their trips, most people in my situation would take the gas car or fly rather than drive an EV on those trips. If you're in an area with no 70A chargers, or even if you are but you are not going to do the long trips and wait for L2 charging (even at 70A), then you don't need twin chargers for road trips either. That net probably catches an awful lot of people right now.
That said, high-speed L2 charging is a LOT easier and cheaper to install than DCQC, and with federal infrastructure funds drying up (which included an L2 restriction of 30A!) it is possible that in the future we may see more 80A L2 than DCQC. Maybe. Supposedly you can add the second charger later, so maybe you want to wait and do that only if the infrastructure shows up.�
Aug 19, 2012
mitch672 I don't think many actually "need" the twin chargers, and the wall mounted HPC, it's more of a desire to have the capability if you run into a charging location that has a 70A J-1772 EVSE.. The wall mounted HPC is also more of a convenience so you can keep the UMC in the frunk/trunk and not pack it up with you each day. Many places don't have the massive J-1772 rollout that the West Coast has, we easterners are more likely to keep our UMC in the car, than many in the West, where J-1772 EVSEs are nearly on every other city block.�
Aug 19, 2012
Doug_G 70A is wonderul to have on the road. It is totally unnecessary at home. I have an HPC and I normally run it at 40A.�
Aug 19, 2012
spleen It'd be cheaper to buy a 2nd UMC to keep in the garage / carry with you for $500 though than to pay for the HPC. A 70 amp J1772 in the wild is really rare - I would imagine that it would be even rarer on the East Coast where you don't have as many J1772 chargers to start off with. In my case, going from a 3.3 kW charger in a Leaf to a single 10 kW charger in the Model S / X will feel like a luxury!
�
Aug 19, 2012
Jack Hmm. So i get back from a Red Sox game at 11PM to midnight on a Thursday, head to work the next day at 6AM, and then down to the Cape at noon to 2PM to beat traffic (not uncommon for me). 150 miles of charge may be ok, but not if i head to friends for dinner on the outer Cape and back. With a ~300 mile range, not sure i'll have the 10 hours all the time. As with 1079, i'm also a rookie with no experience with EV's, and appreciate the experience-based advice above. But the math doesn't seem to work going forward for me, and the cost is less than 3% of vehicle value - a small price to relieve some anxiety (even considered a Volt or plug-in Prius for a bit, due to RA, much less CA - glad i didn't go down that path).�
Aug 19, 2012
brianman Bonnie, tell him what we learned about words like "never".�
Aug 19, 2012
mitch672 We don't actually know the cost or even if the UMC2 will be availble, it's entirely possible the UMC2 will be MORE than the $1,200 cost of the HPWC. Show me where Tesla has ever published/announced the price of the UMC2?�
Aug 19, 2012
Doug_G Very true. I'm currently only aware of one within driving range of where I live, and I was responsible for getting it installed!�
Aug 19, 2012
spleen TMC user reported Admittedly, it's not as good as it being on the Tesla website but given how slowly they update it for these details ...�
Aug 19, 2012
dhrivnak With more than 12,000 miles of EV driving there is only one time I have needed a fast charge, on a trip to EVCCON (Electric Vehicle Conversion Convention. There I did 500 miles in 24 hours and while I would have gladly paid for a 70 amp charger I have yet to find one in the wild. At home there is only one time I really needed more than 40 amps and that is when a fellow Tesla onwer stopped by for a charge. I hope 70 amp units do come but for now they are only a dream in Tennessee. So on a trip bring a jacket and a good book.�
Aug 19, 2012
efusco This sort of advice was given to me prior to configuring my car...and I very nearly followed it. Indeed, I will/would probably have been fine had I followed said advice. But 1)I don't live on the West Coast. 2)I don't live within 200 miles of a public charging station. 3)I travel 180-225 miles to major cities in my region of the country on a fairly regular basis.
Now, given that I'm getting the 85kWh pack that probably further supports the OPs contentions, even given my circumstances. But it is not that unusual for me to drive 120-180 miles in a given day, come home for a mere couple of hours before heading to work, then back home (another 30 miles RT). So, maybe with a top up I'd still have plenty of range, but yea, I've never had an EV before, have no other location to charge than my home, and yes, have some anxiety that I'll be forced to choose between driving my Model S or taking a gasser if I can't quickly top up.
Finally, because of my location, I hope/anticipate serving as a bit of an oasis/way-station for other Tesla owners who may want to commute through this rather remote part of the country and need a top up. It is $2700 and I think that for 95% of Model S buyers it's probably the wiser choice to not get the twin charger/HPC combo, but I definately would have had to either get a second UMC or pay for the HPC even w/o the twin charger, so for the price difference the beautiful and convenient HPC made sense and the extra $1500 for a second charger that may well help me accomodate a quick charge at another Model S owner's home sometime made sense.
One could certainly argue that it makes more sense to get the HPC/twin than it does to get the performance upgrade--that's purely for fun/bragging rights, there's no practical need for that sort of power.�
Aug 19, 2012
mitch672 Well said Evan, I agree. I am getting both, not because I need them, it's more of "in case" insurance, and to have the capability, not that it will be used very often (the dual charger)
It's a small percentage of the additional $92.5k additional I need to come up with (not counting the $5K deposit, which brings it to $97.5K total, including personal delivery and MA sales tax)�
Aug 19, 2012
FlasherZ Here is my need for the high-speed charging at home... Frequently I will be on business trips - I live 65 miles from the St. Louis airport, where there are no charging stations (yet) to plug in while I am gone. There are 5-6 times a year that I will fly back home on a Friday, then take the family and head to my in-laws' home 140 miles away the same night (leaving within 2 hours of getting home), most of it at Interstate speed.
I could try to cut it close with only an hour or two of charging at 40A, but that would leave me very little wiggle room, and might require a lower speed drive. This doesn't include the effects of climate control, or battery degradation. I'd feel confident with 2 hours of 40A charging in perfect weather with a brand new battery, but anything that's not perfect and I'm going to be close. I don't live in California and so hot summers and cold winters affect me.
...and the idea of having to wait for someone in the middle of nowhere, IL, to come by and give me an hour of 40A charging so I can get there with 4 young boys in the car? Unpleasant at best.�
Aug 19, 2012
NigelM What is it with you all out West?�
Aug 19, 2012
bonnie Settle down there, Florida guy. -pats head- I'm sure you have plenty of nice charging stations.
�
Aug 19, 2012
NigelM Thanks Mom :crying:....can I have some cookies now?�
Aug 19, 2012
bonnie Shush, you.�
Aug 19, 2012
smorgasbord Where in the US can you charge at more than 10Kw/Hour?
If you live/travel in CA: Salinas, Atascadero, San Luis Obispo, Santa Maria, Goleta, Barstow, Coalinga, Orland, Yreka, Davis, Palo Alto, Menlo Park, Fremont, and every Tesla Store, which adds: San Jose, Newport Beach, Santa Monica
For the rest of the country: Miami Beach (not just yet), Lone Tree, Seattle, White Plains, Portland, Oak Brook, Houston, Bellevue, Dania Beach, New York, Chicago, Wash DC, and Scottsdale. I think Boston is getting a store, too.
Unless I've missed an installation or two, that's the complete list of where your second charger can be utilized. The only likely public additions will be new Tesla stores. Everything else is sub-50 amp or quick charging, with no indications of that changing any time in the next few years at least. If you won't be traveling through those cities, you won't be using your second charger.
As for the cost of an HPC at home, don't forget to count the added installation charges for larger breakers and thicker wires, not to mention possible main panel upgrades.
Now, if you live along a common road trip route and want to host fellow Tesla owners stopping by, well that's the best reason I've yet heard. Whoever does that first should start a sticky thread for people to post their available HPCs and location, assuming they're not just going to list it in the public databases.
The rest of you should stop being fearful and stop rationalizing. Roadster owners, please add your experiences to this thread.�
Aug 19, 2012
DavidM I agree with Doug_G:
"70A is wonderul to have on the road. It is totally unnecessary at home."
Frankly, I cannot imagine a day when I will drive for 250 miles, return home, charge quickly, and then drive for another 250 miles.
While I would welcome 70A on the road, I'm not sure I would ever need it any time soon.
Usually if I drive 250 miles in a day, I wind up spending the night in a hotel. Then I would get to recharge overnight. 30A or 50A would be just fine.
On longer trips, I would just take our ICE car. Not sure my family would have much patience if something didn't work out just perfectly with my plans for recharging enroute.
I kind of view a 70A home charger as a convenience item for visitors with Tesla EVs. At this point, having both a 50A circuit and a 30A circuit (for charging) would be much more valuable than a single 70A home charger.�
Aug 19, 2012
KBF Doug, I thought Sun Country was planning to put in J1772's along the Trans-Canada. Are they going to be 70 amp or just 30? I had hoped that the twin chargers wouldn't be a complete waste in my Signature...�
Aug 19, 2012
NigelM First, I strongly believe that I'll hardly ever need fast charging, but it's nice to know that I could utilize it if I need to.
BTW, *smorgasbord* missed a bunch of new Tesla stores coming and there are plenty of threads, so I'm not going to start listing them here. There's all a sprinkling of Tesla 70amp HPC's around the country which can usually be found with a quick search; example : http://www.recargo.com/sites/6770/
Then there's this goe3-unveil-nations-first-coast-to-coast-EV-charging-network? I have a hard time to cut and paste on my iPad but you can read in the article about the 70amp chargers.
P.S. in 16 months of Roadster ownership I've never used a 70amp charger, not even once.�
Aug 19, 2012
Doug_G A big problem with the existing EV infrastructure, what there is of it, is that it's mostly 30A. Which actually means 24A. That's a 10 hour charge for a Roadster! For an 85 kWh Model S a full charge would be something like 16 hours. A 50A circuit cuts that almost in half, because you can draw 40A instead of 24A.
That's why I suggest the 50A circuit for home use. It will charge any Tesla overnight. It's pretty rare that you need to charge faster than that at home.
All that said, unless you frequently make long trips one day after another, a 30A circuit will probably do the job. But unless you have no choice because your panel is topped out, there's no point in installing a 30A circuit. The cost difference between 50A and 30A is negligible.�
Aug 19, 2012
KBF Never mind, I did a quick search through my emails and found the answer. For Canadians, it may be worth getting the dual chargers because Sun Country is putting up 40-90 amp chargers along the Trans-Canada (and I think other major highways as well) . I will be making use of them on regular road trips both East and West. I won't get the HPC for at home; no fellow Teslan will want to visit me off the beaten path (well, now it's only 1/2 mile of gravel roads; use your paint Armor!) :wink:�
Aug 19, 2012
efusco Well, if more Model S buyers install 100amp chargers in their homes and are willing to share, that will add to your list.
Also, you're looking at a tiny snapshot right now. I'll have this car for minimum of 7 years, and more likely at least 10. I anticipate dramatic expansion of charging stations around the nation, even in BFE where I live and certainly want to be set to take full advantage. It's just planning ahead.�
Aug 19, 2012
SCW-Greg Many of us are thinking about an $80k, $90k or even a $100k car. What the heck, this is one helluva car. Why skimp? Mitch is right.
Further, if we all believe these cars will succeed (and I'm sure most all of us do), and that other brands are soon on the horizon - you know higher amp 3rd party chargers will follow quickly.
When you fill up at a gasoline station, you don't fill halfway, you fill it up (granted its only a minute or two different, vs hours). Isn't that the Boy Scout/military thing to do... be prepared? Have insurance. Why with EV, if you have the time, would you not get the fullest charge as quick as possible?
I have a 200 amp box in my garage, so I plan on adding the HPWC mostly for the aesthetics, convenience, and the one time a year I may need to charge above 40amps.
For me, why be stingy with the thing that *may* be truly important, vs. say a luxury like a pano roof, or premium sound, etc.�
Aug 19, 2012
Doug_G Yes, they're installing mostly 70A. The Trans-Canada network is coming together very nicely. I just heard that there will be additional 70A chargers available within range of my location very soon. And near you, too.�
Aug 19, 2012
smorgasbord With Tesla's SuperCharging announcement coming, the air just went out of any high-power AC charging network coming, press releases and previous announcements notwithstanding. It's going to be SuperChargers for Teslas and 30 amp J1772s for everything else.
NigelM, GoE3 has just 1 charger installed, in Tucson at Biosphere2. Carstations reports it as free even though the article you referenced says the charge will be $12.50 per charge. Their website is pathetic, btw. But, add Tucson to the short list of more than 50-amp chargers. And, new Tesla stores, too. Note that once stores can do Model S test drives, you'll have to ask the store manager to let you charge (which they'll probably do). If you're expecting to be there after hours, you'll want to call ahead of time and make arrangements.�
Aug 19, 2012
mitch672 Thanks Greg. One other point I didn't mention: I will be ICE free after getting my 85KW Model S, so I'm not going to have the option of "taking the gasser", unless I rent one. Just another reason to have the 20KW charging capability, consider if the Model S was your only car.. The HPWC is more for convenience, It can be wired with less than 100A breakers. If you have 60-100A capability, you should have it installed with the largest size amperage your infrastructure can support.. I had a dedicated 125A subpanel installed in the garage, off my main 200A service, not an issue for me.�
Aug 19, 2012
smorgasbord Show me one non-Tesla non-exotic EV "on the horizon" that can charge at higher than 10kW/hour.
I don't believe there is going to be a high amperage AC charging network in the US.�
Aug 19, 2012
SCW-Greg Yeah I like the subpanel idea... Although I'd rather fly under the radar for now, as I'm hearing some electric companies are beginning to charge (higher) even special rates for EVs - and suggesting subpanels for tracking. Our tiered rates here don't make sense, if you use 'current' during the day at home (you get raked over the coals), so staying on the flat rate. I figure the longer we can not alert the power company to our use, the better. I see rates going up in the future as adoption grows.�
Aug 19, 2012
strider CA maybe, but smorgs point is even more relevant outside the west coast. Here we have a lot (comparatively) of 70A chargers. Everywhere else the J1772's are 32A. I have a 60 mile commute, but wife's is 25. Both my Roadster and her Model S will charge on 24A. I agree w/ smorg that if you're headed inter-city there will be superchargers en route. If you're charging at your destination 10kW will be fine in nearly all cases.
But to answer smorg's question, in 22 months and 21 k miles I have used a 70A HPC just once when I had a competition in Lincoln, CA - 140 miles away from home so outside my round trip distance. The charger was not near my destination so I had to wait for it to charge on my way home. The speed was nice but w/ Model S's larger range wouldn't have been necessary.
But at the end of the day, if it makes you feel more comfortable to have an HPC and twin chargers then you should do it. Being anxious is no way to live.�
Aug 19, 2012
Larry Chanin I agree that for General Production reservation holders a second on-board charger and a High Power Wall-Mounted Connector is a good first place to start cutting expenses when finalizing your configuration. I also agree that looking backward to the experiences of Roadster owners this only reenforces this point of view. In addition, these two items can be added at a later date when the available infrastructure is known with more certainty.
Nevertheless, I would like to make the observation that we are looking backward so those experiences, while relevant to the past and perhaps the immediate future, may not be relevant to folks who plan on taking road trips just a few years from now. In just three years there may be more than 100,000 Model S and Xs on the road trying to get from point A to point B. In that timeframe perhaps another 100,000/year of Gen III's will start rolling out of the Fremont factory. Of course that many longer range Teslas may also motivate the competition to also build longer range vehicles in an effort to keep up. I can envision the net effect of this being a rapid expansion of high capacity Level 2 chargers.
Larry�
Aug 19, 2012
strider Smorg, you are missing the unbelievable generosity of other Tesla owners. The only time I've needed to charge away from home was at a private HPC in Rocklin, CA (thanks Jack!). So like Doc said, as more and more folks buy Teslas they can serve as way stations for other travelers.
Also, I just don't see Tesla having the capital to deploy superchargers in any kind of rapid way. West Coast, Northeast, and perhaps (as a PR stunt) along an interstate or 2 so they can claim "coast to coast" superchargers. Their money is going to remain tied up in getting new models out the door. I realize Chademo has limitations and so Tesla felt compelled to go it alone but they will be a tiny company for the foreseeable future and not one who can bring a lot of $$ to bear for such a build-out. That leaves a lot of the earth not covered by superchargers.
70A J1772's can be used by anyone and it is reasonable to think that over the lifetime of a charging station that more vehicles will have the charging horsepower to take more current.�
Aug 19, 2012
SCW-Greg Well to your (implied) point, that you can always add a charger later - and no car I can point to now - I am hearing Beemer is talking about all EV models by 2014. Knowing Beemer, they'll be gunning for Tesla. So I think the success of this car will bring high amp EVs in just a matter of a couple years. I'd rather get it installed now, rather than realizing in two years I could have used it. Your banking on the industry not following Tesla's lead, not 100% with super chargers, or even as Canada is seeing with 70a network. I think in two years half a dozen players will be following much of what Tesla is doing.
Dont get me wrong... your argument for chargers/charging log is excellent education for many of us (myself for sure), thinking logically how, when and where you use the car, etc... For many of us, money isn't the issue - at least not on this item. It's higher on the (security) list than say 21" wheels, or "I'm getting the MSP, why would I not get everything" kind of thinking.�
Aug 19, 2012
ModelS1079 Great thread. One of the most useful for me. Couple of thoughts:
Who could ever need more than a Gigabyte of RAM?
I'll never need more than a 7MP camera.
I'll get a cell phone but only use it for emergencies.
Looking ahead:
My wife's Model X is connected to our first of two chargers, my daughter's Model G awaits: "Dad, can you hurry up and charge the S so I can head out skiing with my friends in the G..."
It is my abundant hope that we are all way off the mark, and that in seven-ten years 100A feed/80A usable chargers - or more (quad chargers built in? 600 mile range battery?) - are plentiful.
Appreciate the Roadster owners' advice - still up in the air a little. Thinking I may keep the Twins and hold off on the HPWC, parsing the risk and benefit. Bostonites: I was told there is a high power charger between NYC/Boston now but need to confirm this. All: you are welcome to charge up, double-speed, at my place if I do go HPWC!�
Aug 19, 2012
kendallpb This is an interesting and useful thread . . . and frustrating.
I'm 90% sure I'll need work done regardless (hint: my dryer's not in the garage; it's upstairs). My garage has a scary panel that IIRC I was told isn't to code, plus I doubt I have any fancy outlets there. Hourly rates (just getting someone to the house) seems like a big chunk of any work, so as long as I have to pay someone to come here and they have to do what might be major work anyway . . . why not maximize it?
(The "I can be a way station for other Teslans" crossed my mind, but I have some misgivings about that.)
And the rest of you should stop being condescending. ;-) Okay, with the grumpiness out of the way...
...I understand that for us newbies, the Roadster owners' experiences are useful and should be heeded, as is info on the limitations on places to use them, when an HPC or twin charger wouldn't be useful, etc. But we know our own situations and can use this information to figure out what's best. Yes, without hearing "no one needs this" (sometimes from people who have it and have used it--"do as I say, not as I do"?). And it's clear from comments here already that there are at least a few that will need this.
Heck even if I only need it a couple of times a year (e.g., my two-trip Thanksgiving weekends), IMHO it's worth it. Like insurance--a small price to pay, but I won't be screwed if I don't have it when I do need it.
Plus isn't it a bit of future-proofing, for me anyway? In 2013, we'll have a Model S and an ICE, if all goes well. But the ICE will be replaced (not sure when), probably by at least a hybrid, but possibly by a Model X (or some other EV). Wouldn't twins and an HPC be useful, with two Teslas? We keep different hours, so whoever charges first when they get home, if they're done before the other goes to bed, swap cables and the second car tops off, too. Even if we both just took long trips and/or have to get up early for a long trip.
I'm trying to think ahead to situations like that. The "you'll never use it" comments seem short-sighted. Am I crazy?
Plus, you know . . . yeah, I have unhealthy doses of ignorance and "charge anxiety," I'm sure. ;-) Which is why (minus the condescension) I love threads like this. So much I need to learn. Gah....�
Aug 19, 2012
ModelS1079 Kendallpb, you can charge at my house but you need to lay off the coffee.�
Aug 19, 2012
kendallpb LOL. But I don't drink coffee! ;-) Thanks. Do you serve tea while I wait? (I'm just a hyper night owl.)
And see, just when I was thinking "do I want some stranger at my house"...I read your note and laugh, thinking, "yeah I don't mind folks from TMC stopping by." Stop by any time, but wait till I get a new (sub?)panel in the garage with proper outlets.�
Aug 19, 2012
kendallpb HPC I knew, but the twin charger, too? I thought that (like a few other things) should be gotten up front, if one wants it?
Do we know what the cost will be (roughly) to install? Is there just an empty hold somewhere that this gets added to, or a piece of equipment that gets swapped out, if one upgrades from one to two, or . . . ?
Apologies for the barrage of Qs. ;-)�
Aug 19, 2012
mitch672 Yes, there is an HPC is New Haven, CT, I know because "Cinergi" told me about it when he drove his Roadster from Newton, MA to the Model S test drive event in Mawah , NJ... I was going to drive down with him, but I am rather large, it would have been a wee bit cozy on that long drive (if I coud even have squeezed myself into the Roadsters passenger seat)�
Aug 19, 2012
smorgasbord Actually, in this thread I suggested someone start a sticky thread for people willing to share their HPCs.
Only Teslas can use more than 30amps, and that looks likely to be true for at least the next 3 years, probably more.�
Aug 19, 2012
rolosrevenge Ellensburg, WA about 120 miles east of Seattle on I-90, has an HPC. For anyone in WA, the 20 kW chargers allow you to leverage a very strategically placed resource. For me, even if they don't put a super charger there, a 30 minute charge there would be perfect to give me some breathing room on the way to my parents house in the 60 kWh pack.�
Aug 19, 2012
Larry Chanin Hi Kendall,
Adding a second charger at a later date is speculation on my part, but I believe it to be reasonable. We have to believe that Tesla must have the means to replace a failed second charger, and as you state there obviously must be a space for it. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to conclude that it is technically feasible to add a second charger at a later date, by using a procedure similar to replacing a failed charger. Obviously, there is no assurance that Tesla will offer this upgrade, nor do we know what the fee would be.
Larry�
Aug 19, 2012
smorgasbord Does your Thanksgiving travel take you up or down the CA coast or along Hwy 5? Does it take you by any existing or planned or likely Tesla store?
You'd be way better off with 2 UMCs each delivering 40 amps than a single HPC whose cable you'd have to swap in the middle of every night. That would be a nightmare.
BMW is talking about EVs with the typical smallish battery for city dwellers, or with a gas engine to boost performance/range (i3 and i8) - but certainly nothing that can take advantage of more than 10Kw/hour charging.
Why does faster charging on your S enable your daughter to drive the G any sooner? Both charge overnight at 40 amps with 2 chargers.�
Aug 19, 2012
smorgasbord That's great.
Unfortunately, I don't know of any app that lets you search specifically for high amperage charging stations.�
Aug 19, 2012
shokunin I like BMW's, but have several friends that have had serious electrical issues over the years. Mechanically wonderful machines, but electrical systems seemed to be less well engineered. I know they'd be hesitant about getting a BMW EV, but they'd lease them anyways and would exchange before any warranties were up.�
Aug 20, 2012
SCW-Greg Well if BMW's getting in to the EV business, doing it half a**ed would be be like doing their motors half way. You can bet, if they're doing this, it will be a good experience.
Btw, I've had an older 528, my brother's had a half a dozen of 3 series (swears be 'em), and my parents have one of the latest 750's... none of them have ever had any issues really. I have had a total lemon of S500 though.
Edit: This still relatively new tech being developed, and 5+ year history is hard to come by - in masses. So I agree with you, leasing wouldn't be a bad idea for any brand in this business.�
Aug 20, 2012
Eberhard more and more electric car maker are recognizing the importance of speedy charging. While i charge my Roadster with max. 7.2kW 32A) while my socket would allow up to 22kW (3x32A). The Smart ED will as an option have an 22kW charger, the little Renault ZOE even 43kW. No need for CHAdemo. But 90kW DC would be nice, even for the Roadster.�
Aug 20, 2012
spleen This I totally agree with. You have to do what makes you feel comfortable. And certainly there are those that have driving schedules/distances where it may be important to have twin chargers / HPC installed. It's funny, when I first got my Leaf, I was extremely nervous about driving anywhere near the last 4 charge bars. Then I ran it to the first low battery warning x 2 and ever since then, since I know better the capacity of the battery, I'm a lot less range anxious (and I've never even gotten to the 2nd low battery warning). I can relate to a lot of the range anxiety in this thread but a lot of it will likely be ameliorated once you start driving your Model Ss and get comfortable with the range.�
Aug 20, 2012
efusco I asked specifically about adding a second charger later at one point. the reply was a bit obscure, but they said they highly recommened getting any features I may want later installed now. Now, that said, I can't imagine why it couldn't be added later...the issue is, at what cost? No service department within ~1500 miles of me, labor to do it, time while it's done, etc. are no small matter--I suspect the cost would easily be 3 times having it done at the time of build.�
Aug 20, 2012
spatterso911 I'm getting the twin chargers and HPC for three reasons.
1. I work nights and in order to best capitalize on TOU rates, I need my car charged completely in a short window of time on the nights that I work consecutively.
2. My wife wants the Model X, and I want no conflicts when it comes to charging schedules, although this is a weak reason, because she has far better opportunity to charge due to reason #1
3. I live about 5 minutes off of I15, 10 minutes from I10. 3 minutes from the 210 Freeway. This means anyone headed to Vegas from San Diego, or from Vegas to LA can charge at my home.�
Aug 20, 2012
kcveins How would you be able to use the charger at the Tesla stores? The one in Oak Brook is in the middle of the mall - no way to get your car to it unless you ran over shoppers :tongue:�
Aug 20, 2012
NigelM The thread started life with the aim of reducing charging anxiety, but it's starting to sound like convincing people they shouldn't get twin chargers. Just my 2c worth.�
Aug 20, 2012
JakeP This has definitely been an eye-opening thread. I will be using this car as a work vehicle, but I have no daily commute. I either work from my home office, or I drive to a nearby city (say, Pittsburgh to Philly, Pittsburgh to Indianapolis, Pittsburgh to Ithaca, NY), often exceeding the range of the 85kWh. While I appreciate the Roadster owners' reassurance that range anxiety is something easily outgrown, with a travel profile like my own, I will definitely be needing mid-trip charging on a more frequent basis than semi-annual roadtrips. I am hoping the Supercharger announcement in September will effectively eliminate this concern, assuming I can Supercharge a couple dozen times a year without destroying the battery.
I am currently having the garage wired for 100A, and installing an HPC. I will probably get the Twin Chargers on the off chance that future stations may support higher amperage, just as a hedge on future capability (+1 to ModelS1079 for the "Who would ever need more than 1GB of RAM?" comment), as this is a car I foresee owning for longer than my usual term, due to the (anticipated) reduced maintenance demands associated with the drivetrain, and the battery swap-out potential. While I fully realize that this is unnecessary at home, and there aren't *currently* any stations where I can really use it, it would be a shame to come across a 70A charger "in the wild" on one of my routes, and not be able to take advantage of a shortened charge time. Perhaps a reasonably likely example of this could be Tesla opening a store in Columbus, OH with an HPC available, but no Supercharger.
In the meantime, I live right at the intersection of I-79 and I-76, a pair of major N-S and E-W thoroughfares, and am the lone pin on the Model S map in this area. If the Supercharger network doesn't eliminate the need for this, I will happily post the availability of my HPC for other Tesla owners passing by, and I hope that other Tesla owners along my travel routes do the same!�
Aug 20, 2012
Jaff I have an HPC for my Roadster and will be installing the same for the Model S...for me, it's just a matter of convenience...for example, last weekend, I drove home from the cottage (250 kms), was at home for an hour, then left to attend a concert in Toronto...sure I saved "only" a couple of hours by being able to charge at 70 amp, but, this is important to me (not being inconvienenced by additional charge time waiting)...I have also had to have a fast charge to extend range when plans change...using up 50-60% of the battery during the business day, then being offered Blue Jay tickets for the evening and having to leave (essentially) now...I know these times are the exeption to the rule, but as I said before...convenience.
It will also keep my garage looking neater, and will make charging the Model S easier for my wife who is new to EV charging.
Also, as Bonnie previously stated, 70 amp will be available to those fellow EVers to help get them back on the road (so I'm taking one for the team so to speak)
My advice to folks would be if the cost of the connector and installation is onerous, then install a nema 14-50...if cost is not a consideration, then...�
Aug 20, 2012
Lloyd San Luis Obispo, Now has 4! My office, Marsh Street Garage, Air quality Management district (next month), My home�
Aug 20, 2012
mnx I think for me the only reason to get the HPC would be to give a charge to visiting EVers. If that's the case, is it better to put the HPC in my home or contribute to a public charge station elsewhere as others have done? (FWIW, I live fairly close to the highway (~3km) and am a short walk from a few local businesses, including a great Thai restaurant)�
Aug 20, 2012
teslasguy I discussed the HPC/twin charger issue at length with my config
Specialist. He said that it is easy to add the 2nd charger at a later date. However there will be an installation charge and that price hasn't yet been determined. I'm skipping the HPC and
Second charger and instead installing a
100 amp subpanel in the garage and a 50 amp NEMA 14-50 outlet. That gives
me more options for the future. Maybe a
Second EV and a second 14-50 NEMA outlet?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk�
Aug 20, 2012
dsm363 If you can come up with a usage scenario that requires a HPC, if it makes you feel more comfortable, feel it futureproofs the car or you simply think it looks better get the HPC. It really is more useful on the road than at home for most people. I think what most of the Roadster owners are saying is that don't feel you must get the HPC and twin chargers if you can't think of a scenario where you'd need it.�
Aug 20, 2012
bolosky I've had my Roadster for 3 years now. I've got a 14-50 in my garage, and I don't think that I've ever wished I'd had more power there. This might be a little less true with an S because it's less efficient so you'll get fewer miles/hour of charging for given power, but I doubt it.
Where high power is really helpful is out on the road. Naturally, nearly all public chargers are 30A, which are all but useless. To add insult to injury, they're also nearly all 208 V as opposed to the 240V you get from residential circuits.�
Aug 20, 2012
smorgasbord My singular purpose remains to help people who have never owned an EV understand the real reasons to get twin chargers and HPCs, and to recognize those reasons that aren't appropriate. Although EVs are still an "early adopter" purchase, Tesla is marketing Model S to "early majority" people, and my view is that some are dealing with this by maxing out on options that may not actually help.
Roadster owners are the best existing real world example we could look to, and so I suggested that they post their >10kW charging uses here so that everyone could learn from their experiences both ways.
For instance, installing an HPC to share with fellow Tesla travelers is a great idea if you live in the right spot. Installing twin chargers if you expect your travels to home and away again are not only closely spaced but the distance comes close to your vehicle's range can also make sense for those few people to which that applies. But, installing a single HPC to charge an expected 2 vehicles, or installing twin chargers "just in case" when there are no public charging stations putting out more than 50 amps in your state maybe aren't such good reasons.
Again, someone with an HPC willing to charge fellow Tesla owners on the road should start a sticky thread with approximate (not exact) location, and suggest contact via PM to schedule. I don't have an HPC and I'm far enough from main roads, or I'd start it. A private Tesla Owner HPC network would be a great thing, and eventually might become a reason to get the twin chargers.�
Aug 20, 2012
Larry Chanin I'm glad you brought up the subject of contributing to public chargers. I was first exposed to this great idea when Bonnie mentioned that she and others made contributions in California. As an organizer of the Florida Tesla Motors Club I am in a position to facilitate such initiatives. However, I have to admit that so far in surveying our membership, not surprisingly, making donations is one of the least favorite club activities. :frown:
Nevertheless, after people get their cars this point of view might change, or perhaps a subset of our membership might wish to pursue this. Personally I like the idea of having control, albeit small, of the timing of the "local" charging infrastructure. I imagine that agreeing on strategic locations, and finding suitable amenable hosts could be a daunting task.
Larry�
Aug 20, 2012
Robert.Boston Yesterday was an example of a crazy driving day where the HPC+twin-charger would have been helpful. We started the day at our place up in Maine.
Car #1 (my wife) drove to Boston (180 miles, mostly interstates) to drop my daughter off at the bus station, then had a few hours at home before driving ~140 miles to/from a wedding in the wilds of central Mass.
Car #2 (me) drove from Maine to Strafford NH to drop my son off at a cross-country running camp, then back-roaded from there to the wedding, then back to Boston. 7h10m of driving, 325 miles.
I think Car #2 could have made that trip on a single 85kWh charge, especially if I had been a little more conservative on the highway driving segments (only about 2 hours of the total). At 45mph average speed, 325 miles should be achievable, but tight. I might have been able to get a little bit of charge at the wedding or reception, but [email�protected] max, maybe 4 hours tops.
Car #1 would have been a better candidate to be the Model S. The trip to Boston would have burned 220 ideal miles, most likely, traveling at typical highways speeds. There was about two hours of charging time available -- it would have provided a much better safety margin to have had 2 hours x 62mph than at 31 mph.
It's a pretty rare day, though, when both cars had >300 mile days.�
Aug 20, 2012
strider But a Leaf can still USE a 70A J1772, it'll just charge as fast as the on-board charger can run so there's little penalty to install 70A. In the future, more cars will likely have higher power chargers.�
Aug 20, 2012
smorgasbord It's a chicken/egg thing, and I disagree with your expectation. Today if I'm running a company putting in chargers, why would I put in more expensive chargers that only Teslas can use when they will obviously prefer SuperChargers? Then, why would Ford or BMW owners want higher chargers when the stations only deliver 30 amps?
I think Tesla's Supercharger announcement is going to have a big effect on how we perceive this.
I think it's telling that the high power AC chargers are optional while the SuperCharger hardware is standard.�
Aug 20, 2012
EchoDelta One suggestion I've repeatedly sent to PlugShare and Recargo and other charger-finding apps is to add a feature to let us "wish for a charger" at a location.
Over time, a density map would arise around important roads and facilities (malls, hospitals, airports) which then companies, stores, or coops could jump in to fill-in.
I currently publish my home charger (24A). I live enroute to nothing, though, so haven't had any chance to help to a fellow traveller yet.�
Aug 20, 2012
jerry33 I think you're right but it depends on location and how fast Tesla actually brings superchargers out. My guess is that it will be years before there is even minimal coverage in the areas I travel most often.
I've gone back and forth between HPC and no HPC. If I got the HPC it's main use would be of the good samaritan type. The problem is that my driveway only holds one Tesla and parking on the street isn't so hot as far as body damage goes.
I will get the twin chargers as I believe that will help future-proof the car and there's always the remote possibility that someone will install 70 amp charges will be installed in the areas I travel.�
Aug 20, 2012
Lloyd It's kind of like getting gasoline delivered through a straw. If you have a small tank or have no problem waiting like at home then no problem. If you have a large tank and need to get back on the road then you need a hose!�
Aug 20, 2012
ModelS1079 Great Thread. I have a much better sense about the source, anticipated course of, and eventual cure for my Chargitis. It appears that Chargitis is a little like pancreatitis but without the pain, arthritis but without the ache, prostatitis without the hesitation, vaginitis without the itch, rhinitis without the drainage, colitis without the dysentery, and cholangitis without the jaundice). In fact, the more I read, the more I realize that our Roadster owners - the true early adopters (shall we say, precociously active?) - almost universally note that Chargitis is curable, mostly just by driving a Tesla. I'll go with that. I will throw in Twin Chargers for fun on the road (confirmed: HPC between Boston and NYC), noting for others that two Tesla specialists confirmed they can be added later at "a reasonable cost" above the $1500 they cost up front. Perhaps I'll put up a HPWC for those of you visiting, who might have a mild case of Chargitis. And no more worries - this will shake itself out over time. Like bursitis.�
Aug 21, 2012
rolosrevenge I can think of lots of places where 70 A chargers would be great for the next decade at least. There are plenty of resort towns that are 100+ miles off of the interstate where you'd want to spend 4-5 hours and then come back. Those won't see super chargers for quite some time and 32 A might be too little, but 70 A charging would be just right to fully charge the depleted battery.�
Aug 21, 2012
MikeK I've been driving electric for 12 years. All of the occasions I can think of when I would have wanted the second charger do not apply to the Model S:
- On occasion, I have neglected to plug the car in, and discovered my error in the morning. This doesn't apply to Model S because, unlike the NiMH cars I've driven, the Model S is supposed to be plugged in whenever you're at home. So, the mental dance I do now when deciding whether to plug in or not becomes an "always" motion, which is much more likely to be executed reliably. Also, even if I forgot to plug the car in, with the range of a 60kW Model S I could make my longest regular daily trip twice on a single charge, so the penalty for forgetting one day is effectively zero.
- Going on a longer trip, and needing to charge en route or at destination to complete the trip. Much less common with the Model S's long range, and given the lack of public 70A chargers, not likely to be helped by the second charger anyway. Supercharging is more likely for the sorts of trips with the Model S where I would need to charge. Even an RV park is not likely to have an outlet that would benefit from a second charger.
I did order the HPWC, because it's a cleaner and more attractive installation than a UMC, and it allows me to keep the UMC in the garage. I am already wired for the HPWC though, so the marginal cost is just the price difference between UMC and HWPC, plus a trivial amount of installation cost.
And, I did speak with a representative at the Menlo Park showroom to confirm that the second charger could be added later if it seemed relevant.�
Aug 23, 2012
strider See the new strong of EVSE's going in up in Canada - all 70A. Because the marginal cost of installing a 30A EVSE vs a 70A one is tiny. The reason we have so many 30A ones is because of our stupid government putting 30A in the tax credit/grant thing they had the last couple years. So yes, free 30A vs paying for a 70A is a no-brainer but if you're paying for both the costs are not much different.�
Aug 23, 2012
jkirkebo Why are they doing 70A and not 80A ? Are there too few 80A offerings on the market ? I know Clipper Creek has one, the CS-100.�
Aug 23, 2012
strider I was just guessing... It's being done by Sun Country Sun Country Highway and it looks like they resell Clipper Creek's so they could use CS-100's. Not sure.�
Aug 23, 2012
Lloyd I was told that it was an issue with the last 10 amps in UL certification. I'm not sure exactly what the issue was, but 70 amps would pass, but 80 would not.�
Aug 23, 2012
Doug_G It's simpler than that - they don't want to strand the Roadster owners. Even though there's only 57 of us, one of them is the founder of Sun Country Highway...�
Aug 24, 2012
dennis If there is truly a market for BEVs with 300 mile range, then Tesla will not be the only supplier of such vehicles. Otherwise, the Model S will be perceived as an expensive niche product, and consumers who are not early adopters will be reluctant to buy.�
Aug 24, 2012
jerry33 Almost every one I talk to indicates that it's the 300 miles that turns the Model S into a real car and makes it worth considering. My take is the big hold up with EV acceptance is that you can't go on a trip, and an EV is a bit expensive for a "second" car (which is what short range EVs are).�
Aug 25, 2012
GSP A commuter car is often thought of as a "second" car.
However, people who own EVs find out that the EV is the "first" car, and the seldom used highway car is the real "second" car.
GSP�
Aug 25, 2012
Brian H +1
The car that gets driven most is de facto the #1.�
Aug 25, 2012
jerry33 Agreed, but I don't want to have to use an ICE car to go on trips, and no way will I rent a car for trips either. If I have to do either of those, then the EV is a second car (or worse, a substandard car)--even if I drive the EV more often.�
Aug 25, 2012
brianman Except for insurance decisions.�
Aug 25, 2012
Vger To hopefully clarify: The issue with the CS-100 (and other J1772 EVSE's that output 80A) is that there is a flaw in the Roadster that prevents it from "seeing" a pilot signal on a feed above 70A. I have this on good authority from @TomSax. So I checked with the aforementioned founder of SCH and he explained that they are aware of this, and have modified the firmware of all the CS-100's they have installed to accommodate Roadster owners for now. Eventually they expect to double up at many sites, and provide both CS-90's for Roadster owners and CS-100's for Model S owners, giving the maximum to everybody. Cool, huh!?
As a Roadster owner of 2+ years who has taken many road trips of much more than 300 miles (my in-laws live 450 miles away), I did order the twin chargers. I expect to road trip the Model S even more, since it is SO comfortable! Living on the west coast AND in Canada, our Model S will sit at the junction of the first two great electrified superhighways, I-5 and the Trans-Canada, so for BC owners, we have got LOTS of viable long road trips to take.
I also ordered the HPWC for really only two reasons-- 1) convenience of the wall hung appliance with the mobile charger ALWAYS in the car; 2) being hospitable to visiting Model S and X cars. We live in a very beautiful place and get lots of visitors. Increasingly, I expect those to include day visits from Tesla owners (ChadS, you know you are invited). :smile:�
Aug 25, 2012
ChadS Ah, you yellow Roadster owners always have such good taste.
Yeah, we're going to have to get up there just to try the chargers. And I'm excited for the Sun Country Highway...now how am I going to schedule that trip in?�
Sep 5, 2012
neroden Club to get more chargers?
You know, I don't.
After realizing that I'll *never* want a fast turnaround at home from a long trip (I will always need to sleep for 10 hours!) I'm planning to install dual 14-50s -- one in my garage and one in my outdoor space -- so that I can take the car out of the garage when I'm using the garage for a painting project or something. But this also makes it easy to share the 14-50 with fellow Tesla travellers.
But it doesn't seem worth it to get an HPC just to share. It would make more sense to pay to have it installed somewhere more useful.... except, see below.
This is indeed what I was thinking about. But if there seem to be rumors of planned high-amperage charging stations coming to Ontario... which I would use if they were in southwestern Ontario. And if *other* Tesla owners upstate installed HPCs which I could use, that would be most valuable to me.
Perhaps we should really consider starting this.
I sort of feel that I wouldn't be willing to install an HPWC as a pure act of charity, but I might be willing to do so as part of a *club*. That is, I'd consider installing an HPWC if:
(a) I knew other people would use it;
(b) other people installed HPWCs which *I* could and would use.
I'm already willing to let people use my NEMA 14-50, but on a long trip, an 8-10 hour stop to recharge could seem a bit... imposing, shall we say. A 4-5 hour stop is much more, shall we say, polite.
I see *just barely enough people* on the map to start creating a charging network for the trips I'd want to take. And I don't see fast charging, or public 60+ amp charging, coming to my area any time soon. I could get to Columbus, OH with stops in Oil City, PA (one pin on the map), Cleveland (5 pins), and Columbus (1 pin); or to Lansing, MI with stops in Rochester, NY (1 pin), the vicinity of Burlington, ON (5 pins), and the vicinity of Detroit (5 pins). If there were a deal between Model S owners which created a network which would make these trips possible, I'd do my part by installing an HPWC for the use of the other people.
I think I'm too antisocial to take the lead on starting such a club, even though I would find it valuable.
Though on the other hand (sigh), if we had such a club, it might make more sense to get public charging stations installed.
There seem to be no public chargers planned at more than 30 amps anywhere near where I am, unless Sun Country starts planting them in southwestern Ontario. (I emailed them to ask.)�
Sep 6, 2012
NigelM Take a look at PlugShare, this basically does what you're suggesting. I've been registered there for a year or so. It works well except for the lady who asked if she could just park her Prius at my house while she walked to the local tourist spot (all the carparks were full).�
Sep 6, 2012
JakeP Neroden, I'm from just NW of Pittsburgh, just where I-76 and I-79 meet, less than 2 miles from the exit. I travel up to Ithaca at least once a year, and hope to do so in Model S. You are welcome to use my HPC if I can use yours! Trouble is, I will likely need a Supercharger to make it up there, or an overnight stay at my Uncle's farm south of Buffalo, where he has a welder's NEMA 14-50.
Like most, I was really hoping to hear the Supercharger network news before I finalized...and am currently holding out until the end of Sep and my 30-day finalization window before doing so.�
Sep 6, 2012
neroden If we find the fellow on the map from Seneca, PA, we might be able to assemble something.
Yep. I currently expect nothing from the Supercharger network. Even though I have told Tesla repeatedly that the place we need chargers is the big gap between Chicago and the East Coast, they seem intent on placing them uselessly on the coasts. Oh well.�
Sep 6, 2012
JakeP Not to be a rumor-monger, but I explained the exact same thing to several Tesla reps, as I drive inter-city for business trips in the midwest, as opposed to a daily commute. I specifically explained that a network up and down both coasts was not helpful to me, and could even be a showstopper. While of course they didn't reveal anything about the network (and I don't even know what they might have known at the time), several responded with cryptic comments like "I think you will be pleasantly surprised when you hear the announcement".�
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