Feb 8, 2015
MattMDK This seems to have stayed out of the press. The few articles I could find didn't mention that it was a Tesla.
http://charitysmith.org/memorial-funds/peter-kleis/�
Feb 8, 2015
Puff It's in the press. I did some searching. Looks like local news reporting it. Speculation of a roadster as well... so maybe you posted this in the wrong forum.
Unless the investigation finds the car to be at fault I don't find the Tesla part to be relevant. Replace Tesla with (any other manufacturer).
That link along with charitysmith.org isn't working for me at the moment.�
Feb 8, 2015
Puff link is working now.�
Feb 8, 2015
Mario Kadastik Yes, a quick google sais that he was driving his roadster so probably should be moved to another subforum.�
Feb 8, 2015
Kandiru What a great way to exit, this site claims the Mercury News stated he was having late night fun at a restaurant before that, but the info in not on the Mercury News site, so given that and this site's name, I'd that with a grain of salt:
Crash Video Files Los Gatos, California | CrashNegligence.com
RIP�
Feb 8, 2015
wiztecy I personally haven't come across a credible source that identified the vehicle in the accident was a Tesla Roadster. Peter owned a '13 Model-S. There was one stray comment in the Mercury News from a name of ' guest' who mentioned it was a Roadster.
Sad to hear a life was lost no matter what vehicle. Peter seemed like a fun, adventurous, and outgoing individual. Sad he left behind a wife & children.
My condolences to the family.
From Peter's FB page:
![[?IMG]](https://scontent-a-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/v/t1.0-9/999290_10152105774088319_236752017_n.jpg?oh=a228130c19b90eba32c82a11958c2aab&oe=55947822)
�
Feb 8, 2015
MattMDK A simple search of the victims Facebook page shows he owned a Model S.�
Feb 8, 2015
deonb "Los Gatos, California. It was near the intersection of Short Road and Shannon Road"
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Shannon+Rd+%26+Short+Rd,+Los+Gatos,[email�protected],-121.950172,3a,75y,342.01h,84.76t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sIjOBMuyj8lMIYGmgjIkDMQ!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x808e35d39ef6bad1:0x460eba2bdc696104
That's a 35 mph residential road. How do you die with a Model S in a 35mph zone without hitting another vehicle? Even if he was going at say 55mph - it's a flat residential road.�
Feb 8, 2015
Doug_G ...and a Roadster. (Edit: someone asked me to check; I had another look and can't find that information again.)
Don't trust the news reports - they're thin on details and reporters get details massively wrong at the best of times.
I wouldn't be surprised if he had a heart attack while driving. I knew a couple of people who died that way. One of them crashed into a telephone pole but not hard - he was already dead or dying when it happened.�
Feb 8, 2015
ecarfan Yes, in a low speed single car accident, driving a very safe car like a Model S, it seems highly likely that the cause of death was not related to the accident.�
Feb 8, 2015
MattMDK It seems highly unlikely that an obituary, most probably written by his family, would list the cause of death as a "single car accident" if that wasn't the cause. Peter Kleis Obituary - San Jose, CA | San Jose Mercury News
�
Feb 8, 2015
Doug_G They very well might not know the actual circumstances of his death. It takes a while to do an autopsy, assuming one is done.
Very sad in any case.�
Feb 8, 2015
MattMDK I'm fascinated that I made my original post under Model S subforum but it appears the entire thread was moved to the Roadster subforum when there is no evidence that he was in a Roadster. His cover photo on his facebook page is a model S, and he appears to be sitting in a model S in the photo used for his obit. I'm all for defending Tesla and love my model S more than any other car I've owned but don't understand the blind defense of the car that happens in this forum. It is inevitable that fatalities will happen in the model S, my post was simply pointing out the existence of one of them.�
Feb 8, 2015
dennis While Shannon is a 35 mph residential road, it is a narrow, twisty downhill run to Short Rd. and the speed limit is often exceeded. His car was found in the drainage ditch near the intersection with Short Rd. The accident happened around 1 am. There are many possible scenarios...�
Feb 8, 2015
wk057 Definitely not a Model S in the pic. The Model S doesn't have oh-s**t handles, along with other giveaways that it isn't a Model S in the obituary pic.
As for the rest, I don't know the man or have any details on whether it was an S or not in the accident.�
Feb 9, 2015
Doug_G Given the ambiguity over the car model I have moved the thread to the Tesla Motors section.�
Feb 9, 2015
NigelM I moved the thread after two members noted it was a Roadster and the thread wasn't censored, just moved to a more relevant area. Please don't give me the "blind defense" fanboy implication.
BTW, you're factually wrong as the poor guy is NOT photographed sitting in a Model S.�
Feb 9, 2015
ecarfan The photo of Mr. Kelis in the article linked to by the OP shows him sitting in a car that is definitely not a Model S. The door panel is very different from an S and there is a grab handle above the window that no Model S has ever been built with. He appears to be sitting in the left rear seat of the car, not the drivers seat.�
Feb 9, 2015
dpeilow Am I the only one finding the argument in this thread over which kind of Tesla it was a little distasteful?�
Feb 9, 2015
dennis Text to me from his neighbor: "His daily driver was a Model S."�
Feb 9, 2015
wiztecy We're all concerned and also have respect for the person. However the Roadster has not had any fatalities hence why people were curious and defending it due to lack of credible information. I don't think its distasteful, whenever there's a death in a vehicle that I also drive I want to know how and why it happened. Its both for my safety and also the safety of others on the road.�
Feb 9, 2015
4SUPER9 I have a connection with the Coroner's office and made an inquiry. These items are public record anyway, so no rules are being broken. If I am incorrect, they won't release any info.
I understand dpeilow's concern over the tastefulness of the type of discussion. I also think it is acceptable to have a conversation about the circumstances surrounding the events of a fatal crash while still being respectful to the fact that someone lost his life.�
Feb 9, 2015
NigelM Social ones maybe? Sorry, I do find this distasteful.�
Feb 9, 2015
bonnie This just feels really wrong and invasive, whether rules are being broken or not.�
Feb 9, 2015
4SUPER9 I understand, and I think I agree. I am not interested in, nor do I want, any actual details of his death. I would like to know if there were any outcomes from the investigation: What speed was he going? Was it on a curve? Was he wearing his seatbelt? Etc. I don't think that's too distasteful.�
Feb 9, 2015
Xenoilphobe Dude really? Ever hear of Aspergers Syndrome ? This is really socially inappropriate. Have some respect for the family - this is not cool. I don't think we need or want that level of detail. Even the connection with the coroners office is giving me the hebejebes. Lets stop - this is disturbing.�
Feb 9, 2015
ecarfan I think you meant "how and why it happened, not "who and why"?
Since a Tesla was being driven and a fatal accident resulted, yes I would like to know how the accident happened and whether it was a Model S or a Roadster.
And I was not aware that "the Roadster has not had any fatalities". That's interesting, though no doubt it is in part because there are a relatively small number of Roadsters and most of them do not have a lot of miles on them yet.�
Feb 9, 2015
dennis He was not wearing a seatbelt. This from one of his friends.�
Feb 9, 2015
wk057 I would also be curious as the circumstances. Cutting to the chase, if there is some way to have a fatal accident in the Model S in a residential area where presumably speeds would be low... I'd like to know about it.�
Feb 9, 2015
dennis ?Just to clarify, Shannon Rd. is a couple of miles from my house. The speed limit is routinely exceeded there, sometimes by a lot (I once reached 45 mph on my road bike on the downhill section). The car ended up in a ditch. The driver was not wearing a seatbelt. It was after 1 a.m. in the morning.
It is highly unlikely this accident had anything to do with any safety shortcoming in the Model S. Can we put it to rest?�
Feb 9, 2015
wk057 I'm not digging, personally. But if someone else does, and posts the info here, I don't have a problem with it. "Highly unlikely" is not quite a closed case.
I promise, no disrespect to the family or the deceased intended on my part.�
Feb 9, 2015
4SUPER9 Perhaps you guys and gals are right. My deepest apologies to those that I offended. I really meant no disrespect to the victim or his family. I told my contacts to not bother looking into it.
Again, I didn't want any details that could be deemed inappropriate. I just wanted to know how someone can be in a fatal single car accident in a 35 mile per hour zone (if I have that right). A lot of people are speculating as it is. If he was intoxicated or texting, that's a valuable lesson for us all.
Now, accusing someone of having Asperger's? Again, I'm sorry if I was so out of line, but this was uncalled for.�
Feb 9, 2015
DavidB I, too, would like to know more about the nature of the crash.
I'm very sorry for the family and their loss, and I wish Peter was still around, but I don't see how their loss should mean that we shouldn't know what happened--especially if the crash reveals a design flaw that can be corrected. I would feel the same way even if I was the victim; when I die, I hope that my death, in some small way, can be used for good. That is why I have signed an organ donor card and have made it clear to my family that I would prefer that my body be donated to science.
To be honest, I don't understand the reasons behind the phrases "the argument ... was a little distasteful", "this is really socially inappropriate," and "This just feels really wrong and invasive". And no, I don't have Aspergers Syndrome.Quite honestly, I would like to understand your thought process--Why shouldn't we try to find out what happened? I understand not hounding the survivors for answers (yes, that would be very inappropriate), but what is wrong with our trying to learn what happened?
�
Feb 9, 2015
dpeilow I'm sure the nature of the crash will come out in the fullness of time and lessons will be learnt. In the meantime there's nothing you can do about it.
As a two Tesla household it's a possibility another family member of the family might eventually find this thread. The sleuthing and some of the phraseology are a little uncalled for IMHO.
Condolences to the friends and family.
- - - Updated - - -
I'm sure the nature of the crash will come out in the fullness of time and lessons will be learnt. In the meantime there's nothing you can do about it.
As a two Tesla household it's a possibility another family member of the family might eventually find this thread. The sleuthing and some of the phraseology are a little uncalled for IMHO.
Condolences to the friends and family.�
Feb 9, 2015
wiztecy Yes I did mean how. Thanks, I made the edit.
- - - Updated - - -
I wouldn't guarantee it. Some of these incidents get mentioned by the media/source only once then never again.
IMO there is nothing wrong with inquiring about why an accident about any product that available where a life is riding on the line due to something as simple as a little bolt breaking due to a defect. That's why people want to know and I feel they have a right. Look at airplane accidents. I feel there's a responsibility to talk about it. This helps understand if the product was used as intended or pushed beyond its design specs, or even have failed by a manufacturing flaw. Where the product would be recalled, fixed, and put back out in the public which an action that could save lives. Lastly if it even was pilot/driver error, that we also must learn from that too and truly understand why, try not make it ourselves, and also to share the concern with others to prevent help it from happening in the future. If you close your eyes as if nothing has happened, nobody will learn, and another loss will happen. Its life. I don't feel any disrespect to the family for what has been discussed in this thread and none I felt was intended if someone feels that way.
Not trying to spur this thread, but the original discussion was pointing out an accident in a Model-S, then it mistakenly was put into the Roadster section as if it was a Roadster (due to a couple of stray article comments). Since it was said to be a Roadster, it was concerning for myself since I own one where no fatalities have been recorded to this day. As the Roadsters age we want to ensure they remain safe. Using the Internet that's publicly free information I could only find that there was no information to back up it was a Roadster, but credible public information pointed that it most likely was a Model-S. Then after another member confirmed from a credible source it was an S it was then moved to the Model S section.
So instead of leaving the thread with incorrect information that can turn into more rumors (which I feel is worse), it was corrected and clarified.�
Feb 10, 2015
Xenoilphobe 4Super9 you are right - that was harsh - my ADHD was in overdrive. Please accept my apology for being harsh - i don't really know you and it wasn't fair to make such a harsh assessment. BTW thanks for respecting the family.�
Feb 10, 2015
NigelM It's rare that anyone posts an apology online; kudos to 4SUPER9 and Xenoilphobe (both got +ve rep from me for that).
FWIW, I'm 100% certain that if there was any question of the car being to blame in this accident it would already have been all over the press. Driving-related deaths happen all the time and we should all just remember (whatever car we're in) to drive carefully out there.�
Feb 10, 2015
jthompson +1 Agree!!!�
Feb 10, 2015
chickensevil Even when there isn't legitimate question over the safety of the car it is all over the news when it is a Tesla. So I would agree that this is not likely that Tesla was at fault here.�
Feb 10, 2015
dennis I decided to visit the crash site today to help answer that question. The first photo below shows the intersection where the single car accident occurred. To the left of my car you see culvert where the police found the Model S and the memorial which marks the spot where it left the road. In the second photo you can get a sense of the depth of the culvert. Also notice the two freshly cut oak tree stumps between the memorial and the culvert, indicating the car may have hit a tree before landing in the culvert. Given the culvert, the tree and a report of no seat belt, the fatality is not surprising to me.
I hope the family can find some peace. Looking at the memorial the victim was loved by a lot of people.
�
Feb 11, 2015
DavidB Thank you, Dennis. As the saying goes, "a picture is worth a thousand words," and your post answers my questions to a sufficient degree.
Again, I'm very sorry for the family and their loss.�
Feb 11, 2015
chickensevil I think between this and the other crash/fatality (the high speed one that split the car in half) it should be noted that we should all remember to wear our seatbelts regardless of how far you plan to travel or how fast you are going.�
Feb 11, 2015
4SUPER9 Wasn't there a 3rd fatality where someone went off a cliff near Big Sur or some similar extremely high cliff? That is clearly not survivable. This culvert is surprisingly not deep. It's essentially a ditch. If I was to be driving down a road and imagine driving into this, I would never envision it causing serious bodily damage, especially with our enormous crumple zone. Then again, I ALWAYS wear my seat belt, even in a parking lot. Like chickensevil said above, this shows the incredible importance of wearing your seatbelt. Absolutely awful and a tragic, possible preventable loss.�
Feb 11, 2015
strider I just want to chime in that I appreciate the sleuthing work and I didn't find anything in the thread distasteful at all. I drive a Roadster every day and my wife and 2 kids are in a Model S every day. As others stated I want to know how/why people can get hurt in them. All I read in this thread was a quest for facts which by definition cannot be judgmental or distasteful. We shouldn't be afraid to call things what they are.�
Feb 11, 2015
AnOutsider Thanks for that Dennis, it definitely clears some things up for me as well. Having been thrown from a quad a time or two, I can definitely see how this seemingly minor accident could have led to a fatality.
Condolences�
Feb 11, 2015
wk057 My sympathies and condolences to the family as well.
Definitely emphasizes the "seat belts save lives" saying.
(Somewhat off topic, but... I don't know how anyone can drive the Model S without a seat belt. I get irritated with the incessant pestering the car makes about it when just moving my car in a parking lot, let alone driving any real distance.... yet I hear people here on this forum mention not wearing seat belts all the time. How do non-seat-belt-wearing folks handle this? I would go crazy.)�
Feb 11, 2015
Doug_G Plug the passenger belt into the driver's seat belt latch.�
Feb 11, 2015
4SUPER9 That would work, but I just don't get it. Can someone please explain to me why someone would hate seatbelts so much as to go through the trouble?�
Feb 11, 2015
wk057 People do this?
That's kind of scary. :scared:�
Feb 11, 2015
4SUPER9 Looking at that road, if coming from that same direction as indicated by your car, he must have completely missed the road veering to his left. No seat belt, and in a 30 mph zone. I would think that, at the very least, the Airbags should have deployed.�
Feb 11, 2015
MattMDK I was the original poster and took some slack from forum members. We are all driving a car that takes pride that it was rated the safest car ever tested. We have also all read the stat there had never been a fatality in the Model S. This changed when a car thief crashed the car into a building at 100mph. I believe the second fatality involved a very steep cliff. I assume many people in this forum were interested in the cause of those accidents and wanted to know if it was a Model S or not. I find it odd that several posters in this thread are so bothered by us wanting to know the circumstances surrounding this tragic accident. Would they rather sweep this under the rug and pretend the fatality in the car we drive everyday never happened?�
Feb 11, 2015
TEG Just a thought, but someone could temporarily remove their seatbelt while driving. Say you were too hot and tried to remove your coat while driving (bad idea). The same action of removing the seatbelt to remove a coat could lead to making a steering mistake that causes you to leave the road. Similar if you removed the seatbelt to reach into the back seat to get something. I have no idea what actually happened, but throwing out an idea of what might make more sense here.�
Feb 11, 2015
wk057 Steering mistake... hmm... sounds like we could use that autopilot update.
Edit: To clarify, I was responding to @TEG regarding removing a coat... not really on topic here, where I guess it would sound bad... sorry�
Feb 11, 2015
AnOutsider now THAT might be a bit distateful...
as for seatbelts, i have folks who get in my car and i have to TELL them to put om their belt every dang time! incessant bonging aside, i just can't bring myself to not have my seatbelt on. it's habit. i feel exposed and uncomfortable without it.�
Feb 11, 2015
jerry33 Me too. I've been using them since before there were seatbelt laws. Actually, the laws ticked me off a bit because why should there be a law to do something I already do.�
Feb 11, 2015
DavidB Warning: The following paragraph describes some of the physics of airbags and may be disturbing to some.
The airbags probably did deploy. Unfortunately, air bags are not designed to replace seat belts; they are to supplement lap and shoulder restraints to help limit head and chest injuries. The air bag initially inflates at speeds of up to 200 miles per hour, and if a passenger or driver is not fully restrained they are likely to contact the air bag before it is fully inflated and may sustain serious or fatal injuries.
We should always remember to:
*Use both lap and shoulder belts on every drive. Always. No exceptions.
*Wear the lap belt under the abdomen and low across the hip. Never wear the lap belt above your hips.
*Keep the lap belt snug.
*Wear the shoulder belt portion down over the collar bone away from the neck and cross over the breast bone. Never position the shoulder belt so that it presses against your neck.
*Move your seat as far back as practical, especially drivers smaller in stature.
*Try to keep a 10 inch margin between the steering wheel and your breast bone. If you cannot keep a 10 inch margin, then try: Tilting the steering wheel downward--this will aim the air bag at your chest instead of your head and neck; Slightly reclining your seat back--this may help you achieve the 10 inch margin. If, however, reclining the seat back hinders your view of the road, raise your seat.
*Keep unsecured objects in the car to a minimum. All unsecured objects have the potential to be deadly missiles in a crash.
I think we all are guilty of doing unsafe driving practices occasionally. Let's remember that the seconds we save by not pulling to the side of the road and parking before **removing a coat, reading or answering a text, checking that we have what we need, restraining our child, or whatever we might do that interferes with the task of driving** is not worth the years of life we might lose.�
Feb 11, 2015
jerry33 Don't some (maybe all) airbags deploy differently depending upon whether the seatbelt is fastened?�
Feb 11, 2015
DavidB Some, yes. I don't know which cars do and which cars don't.
However, even if the airbag does deploy with less force if the seat belt is not used, momentum will throw your body into a very sub-optimal position. In other words, the car will stop. You will still be traveling at pre collision direction and speed.
---
Furthermore, if the seat belt warning chime has been thwarted by sitting on the buckled seat belt or by attaching the passenger seat belt to the driver's seat belt buckle, then the airbag will deploy with maximum force.�
Feb 12, 2015
Doug_G The Valets use that trick when loading the Model S into the trailer, because they have to lift their butt off the seat to look out the window and check alignment, and when they do that the car shuts down. If you trick the car into thinking you've got your seat belt on then it doesn't shut down.
You should never drive without your seat belt on. A fellow I respect and admire sadly died some years ago in a head on collision. He wasn't wearing his seat belt and died on impact. His wife was wearing hers and survived with serious injuries, but recovered.
It's not worth risking your life for a little extra comfort.�
Feb 12, 2015
wk057 I don't even find seat belts uncomfortable... definitely would not go any real distance (like, more than a couple hundred feet in a parking lot or in my driveway or something) without clicking it... and usually do then too just out of habit.�
Feb 12, 2015
Beaker That's a T intersection and both the culvert and the car in the photo are at the top of the T. Marks on the curb (not in the photo) show that that a car has recently headed straight through the stop sign, over the curb, and head on in to the culvert.�
Feb 12, 2015
4SUPER9 This, along with not wearing a seat belt, explains it all.�
Feb 12, 2015
hcsharp What stop sign? The T intersection next to the car in @dennis' photo is where a driveway goes over the culvert and meets Shannon Rd. There's no stop sign there. There's a stop sign down at the intersection of Shannon and Short but that's after the culvert and after the point where he went off the road. I don't see how anybody could have gone through a stop sign and head-on into the culvert.�
Feb 12, 2015
4SUPER9 Looks like they're are stop signs at all ways. This view of Shannon Rd shows that perhaps he was coming from this direction and went straight through.
The view in this second photo shows the culvert to the right, and would mean veering off the road (falling asleep could do that).
�
Feb 13, 2015
wiztecy Race car drivers always wear their seat belts and there's a very good reason for that.
I honestly can't drive a car without a seat belt and actually would prefer a 4 or 6 point harness over the side shoulder strap. I feel more secure when pushing hard through turns or in the case of a crash/roll that my body stays tight the seat when G's go in unfavorable directions.
In my Roadster, the biggest fear is that the car is so low that the front windshield pillers offer absolutely NO protection against objects of any significant weight approaching the driver/passenger. Look at the Lotus forum for this issue and pics. The car is a ramp for objects and cars to ride up and on top of you. Since my Roadster is my daily commuter I've been considering a full roll cage and at a minimum a 4 point harness to guarantee my own personal safety, either from an error on my own driving or in the event of some other person's mistake.
Even Elon knew he couldn't keep away from fatalities over time. With more cars produced and people buying them the odds are against your favor. For the Roadster I believe none have occurred for that there are very few of them around. To give credit the Roadster is built strong and ample for its time, having ample front/rear crumple zones, but most importantly a tub that has very strong aluminum beams running down the sides as well as side impact beams in the doors. Mike Malony's harsh accident that he walked away unharmed is a pure example of the strength and protection of the tub. But as time goes on it will eventually happen. The Elise as a very close model and fatalities have occurred, from my observation its from the lack of a cage and the piller failing to offer proper protection. It was spec'd and designed to hold glass, not to protect the driver/passenger.
I have a Jeep Rubicon that's built for rock crawling, it has a full roll bar / cage and a 4 point harness as well as full armor all the way around. The cage and seat belt harness give me great confidence that if anything goes south while I'm driving this Jeep that I'll most likely walk away. And ONLY when I'm strapped in with the safety/seat belt. Worse case spend some time in a hospital for odds and ends, but for the most part steel will protect me if its a properly designed barrier / zone around my body. In order for this safety system to fully function in order to protect me I must be strapped in. And no-matter how short of a trip you're making, you need to buckle up. Most accidents occur very close to home as this thread has pointed out.�
Feb 14, 2015
caddieo Thanks to 4SUPER9 for the last 2 pictures as they clarify the trajectory of the crash. However I will leave speculation about the mechanics of the crash to those who are inclined to do so.�
Feb 14, 2015
hcsharp Jeremy Foley has a lot to say about this:
[video]www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwdC1Yi3OG8[/video]�
Feb 14, 2015
chickensevil See I used to wear them especially when driving but was less motivated about remembering in other situations until I joined the military. They basically had a rule in place that you had to wear your seatbelt or face potential loss of rank and any passengers must be belted or your would be punished for their actions as well. Basically if you were in a car it was your responsibility to ensure everyone was buckled. As such I had gotten in such a habit of not only ensuring I am buckled but everyone else is that years later even though I am no longer in the military I still tell everyone to buckle up if I notice they aren't. And then hearing stories on both sides of tragic loss of life and surprising saves reinforces that habit.
About the model S it will eventually go silent on the ringer once you get up to speed (like 30MPH) but if you ever come to a stop again it will start complaining at you again. Or so I have heard from people on the forums. I have never driven far enough without a seatbelt on to find out.�
Feb 17, 2015
bwa This is very sad. He looked like a great guy with a great family. Having lost my dad at 13, it ruined my life. I hope his children get a replacement father, but that is extremely difficult. I never got one and it ruined me.
Regarding the accident, I always want to know what not to do and what to do and thoughts for what to prevent. I'm not perfect and I always want to improve.
I have a speculation: the trees were cut before the accident, and he was missing the trees as road cue that the turn was there, and therefore failed to slow down or turn, trying to stay in what he thought was the roadway. This can happen easier with age or poor eyesight, driving by memory instead of sight. It could also happen more easily if distracted (see seatbelt speculations). Missing trees would be a bad deal in the dark for a driver like this (as I age, my eyes get worse and I use more memory cues than visual cues for driving, which is morbidly scary in San Jose with all the new invisible oddly shaped concrete medians). However, I'm not quite sure how this would cause him to stay so close to the crash point even at a light speed.
I found many other speculations here possible to.
I'm very surprised every time I pull over to do texting or phone calls and law enforcement pulls over and asks what I'm doing there. This has happened to me numerous times, and very often I don't see other people pull over to text or call. When I pull over, I find a safe and hopefully legal spot. This phenomenon of LEOs pulling over to ask what I'm doing was a few years ago before I started to see other people doing it a lot. Now days I actually do see other people doing it more often. This is a good thing. If driving conditions don't allow safe operating of some item (car settings, clothing, communications, audio controls, navigation, etc.), one should safely park first just to do it. I do this all the time. I consider my mental driving ability and visual information sufficiency to perform that function while driving, and often me being tired, mentally occupied, heavy traffic or poor visual contrast can easily make the difference between times when I consider it safe to do something en route and times when I have to pull over to do the same thing, such as taking off a shoe, or taking a look at my navigation map.�
Jun 24, 2015
Doug_G Moved some stuff to random chitchat�
Jun 30, 2015
Lerxt It is beyond belief that intelligent people don't wear seatbelts.�
Jun 30, 2015
mhpr262 EDIT: Never mind.�
Jul 7, 2015
Robert.Boston When I'm in a private car I always buckle up, but for some reason I don't do so in taxis. Particularly odd behavior gap, given that I don't have any particular reason to trust the cabbie more than I trust me. Time for me to change that behavior.�
Jul 7, 2015
AnOutsider I noticed that myself about a year ago (when I hopped in an Uber) and changed that real quick. I think one reason is that I typically cab in NYC where you're never really going all that fast to begin with. The Uber I'd taken was from the airport to the city center and there was a lot of highway driving. Now it's pretty much automatic (if a bit disgusting in some vehicles).�
Jul 7, 2015
dsm363 Yeah. Always buckle up no matter what vehicle is and who is driving. It shouldn't even be a question. You are not replaceable but the car is.�
Jul 7, 2015
DFibRL8R I'm sure Bob Simon's family would agree with you
Disconcerting details emerge about driver in Bob Simon's fatal accident - Yahoo News�
Jul 7, 2015
4SUPER9 And taxi companies are demanding more regulation for Uber...�
Jul 7, 2015
Lloyd Taxi companies need to change with the times...... What are they going to do when there are driverless taxis?�
Jul 7, 2015
TSLA Pilot Newton's Laws of Motion apply regardless of which seat you sit in . . . pleased to see your change in behavior:
'Beautiful Mind' Mathematician John Nash Jr. Dies In New Jersey Car Crash : The Two-Way : NPR�
Jul 7, 2015
MorrisonHiker I went on a cruise with family and friends last year. For the trip to the airport, a friend ordered a limo that could hold all of us and our luggage. Everyone was having a nice ride to the airport except for me since I didn't have a seatbelt. All I could do is imagine being in an accident and flying forward. Eventually, I moved to the rear of the limo and found the very back seats did have seatbelts so I was able to buckle up. That made the rest of the 45 mile drive to the airport more enjoyable. Unfortunately on the return trip, the limo didn't have any seatbelts and I was worried again during the entire drive home. :crying:�
Jul 7, 2015
jerry33 I have always been unhappy with seatbelt laws because I've been wearing seatbelts since before the laws were on the books. I always thought that if you're not intelligent enough to wear them...�
Jul 7, 2015
hcsharp Bob and Peter were both very intelligent people.�
Jul 7, 2015
neroden When I was a kid, most taxis didn't have working seatbelts. Scared the crap out of me. They got a lot better about enforcing that sometime in the 1990s.
Also when I was a kid, most schoolbuses had no seatbelts at all, except for the driver! Now *that* was disturbing. (This isn't slow-moving city buses; school buses go at 55 mph on highways!) They finally required all schoolbuses to have seatbelts in NY in the late 1990s.
The gaps in the provision of seatbelts were frankly weird. I tried to wear a seatbelt at all times but it wasn't until roughly 1999 that it became *possible*.�
Jul 7, 2015
hcsharp Statistics have shown that school buses almost never have accidents where seat belts would be a help. Ignoring the educational value, the money to install them would be better spent on other things that would save more lives and reduce childhood injuries. This came as a surprise to me a few years ago when I saw the research.�
Jul 8, 2015
chickensevil I think it is because unless you hit a brick wall that forceably stops the bus with almost no give, the size of the vehicle will carry the momentum forward and it will take longer to come to a stop. The majority of what causes injury is the body coming to a stop abruptly, which is why most vehicles are doing what they can to absorb the impact in clever ways so it doesn't translate into your body and wreck your system. Humans are very fragile creatures...�
Jul 8, 2015
dsm363 What amazes me is the motorcycle equivalent of a seatbelt (helmet) doesn't have the same force of law in most starts. The same state will force you to wear a seatbelt (a good thing) but say once you hit age 18, your skull magically hardens and you no longer need a helmet.�
Jul 8, 2015
wycolo > Also notice the two freshly cut oak tree stumps between the memorial and the culvert, [dennis]
Diameter of these trees would seem to be important. I can't make them out in the photos.
Re: Comfort of Safety Belts:
Used to be that safety belts would ratchet to a fixed position that would remove the tension against your chest yet keep the belt relatively snug. The MS does not do this - not a problem until you need to drive leaning forward - then it becomes a nuisance/irritant constantly fighting you and constricting ever tighter & tighter.
Whenever the DOT mandated (?) this change I suspect it was the last straw for a lot of drivers, who then said the hell with this!
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Jul 8, 2015
jerry33 Yes, and they used them in their personal cars, but just didn't think about commercial vehicles. I was referring to those who don't use them unless they see the police.�
Jul 8, 2015
hcsharp That wasn't my point.
Try to be a little more understanding of the families and other loved ones of these two people. Bob was in his own car but that's irrelevant. Darwinian references about natural selection and intelligence levels of people who don't wear seat belts unless they see the police may not be appropriate whether you are joking or not.�
Jul 8, 2015
woof Using a seat belt in a car is less about protecting you, and more about keeping the car under control and the occupants in the path of the airbags. A helmet in a motorcycle offers some personal protection, but the state doesn't really care about that...they care about preventing you from hurting someone else. Wearing a helmet won't help there, so they have less interest in enforcing it. And before 18 you are a minor and aren't supposed to have enough brains to make your own decisions, such as protecting your brain!�
Jul 9, 2015
Pilot_51 I grew up always wearing a seatbelt. Sure, when I was a kid I had issues with it digging into my neck, but I dealt with it, sometimes by putting it under my arm. My mom would say she felt naked without a seatbelt. I remember when I was in the back of a van on a 4th grade field trip, wearing my seatbelt when hardly anyone else did (at least not properly), I used the "naked" explanation and the classmate I was explaining it to got disgusted by it and seemed to miss the point. I learned not to explain it that way any more.
As others have expressed, I'm appalled by how many otherwise very intelligent people don't wear seatbelts. Most of the developers I work(ed) with don't wear a seatbelt in the back seat, though they would when they sat in the front. That's part of the reason I don't like to drive the team to lunch, because I don't want to have to awkwardly ask them to put their seatbelt on or be responsible for their own negligence. I'll happily take the back if it means an extra person wears their seatbelt.�
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