Jan 14, 2010
k3000 hi guys
this is my first post :smile:
i'm in the following situation: i have a very, very good offer from a friend in the USA for the Roadster.
I have already imported cars from the USA and it's usually not that big of a problem (find a good shipper and insurance, pay for some homologation). Pretty straight forward.
Can someboday answer this quesiton? Or has somebody here imported a US Roadster to Europe before?
- I spent hours here in the forum yesterday, trying to figure out if I will be able to charge the Roadster at all in Europe... without any success.
- If yes, will I be able to install the US Home Connector for faster charging (480V)? Or can I charge a US Roadster with the EU Home Connector?
- How about homologation? Obviously some cosmetic changes are needed regarding the lights, license plate holder etc. or the Swiss guys here won't allow me to drive the car.
- Can any well equiped garage do this or do I have to get this done at Tesla in Munich? Will they do it AT ALL?
In detail: does somebody exactly know, which homologation is needed?
- How about GPS? Are European Maps available?
These are minor issues really, the main issue is the charging.
Any help is greatly appreciated!
Thanks folks.�
Jan 14, 2010
dpeilow Hi k3000. Welcome to the forum.
I'm not an expert on the homologation, but there have been some "US" cars supplied by Tesla before the official EU model was released.
The US fast charger is 240V single phase, so it will work here. Whether an actual US charger is approved for use here is another matter, but one supplied via Tesla over here should be fine with the car.
There are European maps available for the GPS - assuming the car has the Blaupunkt unit. If not, it's a simple thing to change the radio/nav unit.
I can put you in touch with Munich people if you need. Alpinedriver here was going to import a US model (he got an EU in the end), but maybe he can help more.�
Jan 14, 2010
k3000 thanks for the quick reply.
can you shed some more light on the charger? what do you exactly mean when you say it will work here (how, do I just plug it in or do I need to call an electrician?) but you're not sure if it's approved (approved by who?).
I tried to call Tesla in the US and ask about these details, but they were really unfriendly... they basically said don't you ever dare to export one of or Roadsters. You will blow it into pieces if you even dare to approach a power plug... then they mentioned "some different firmware" in the car which will not allow the car to be charged in Europe. firmware for what?! I only realized AFTER the phonecall that there's an enormous price difference between the US and the EU. are they afraid the EU guys will go out of business? :biggrin:
And how do I for example change the speed indicator from mp/h to km/h?�
Jan 14, 2010
LST Hi there
the major thing is not the charger, its the homologation. i would strongly suggest to forget about trying to import the Roadster from the US. You won't get any help from TM. some technical security specs change as well: side repeaters, rear lights, reflectors etc. , then there's the lights, the odo...
as of what i know about the swiss homologation, which was a hassle in the beginning (i know 'cause i got one of the first on the road "legally") was the lack of some special crash test ( pedestrian safety ).
as you know the pricing of US Roadster and EU Roadsters is quite different...and IMHO i don't think they'll tend to change that in the near future.�
Jan 14, 2010
TEG The EU roadsters have some other differences with lighting, labeling, VINs and such. There are different regulations in Europe, so I imagine that Tesla can't officially support any US spec roadsters in Europe.
Another question would be what would happen if you tried to bring a US spec roadster into a European Tesla office for service?
(edit: I see LST just posted similar thoughts)�
Jan 14, 2010
k3000 hello LST
could you please answer these question:
- who did the homologation for you?
- costs involved?
I know that if crash test data of the Tesla Roadster is not available on safecar.gov, importing gets a little more difficult.�
Jan 14, 2010
k3000 I guess you just pay for the service since the US manufacturer warranty is not valid in Europe.
But if you save $60'000 when you import the car, that's A LOT of services you can pay for.
�
Jan 14, 2010
TEG Unless they refuse to touch it at a European service center and insist you ship it back to the USA for service...�
Jan 15, 2010
k3000
will not happen!
If the sell the same car in Europe as in the USA, they will have to grant you a 2 year warranty minimum.
That's the law.
VW and Daimler-Chrysler lost multimillion lawsuit trying to do avoid imports...
So either Tesla will grant me my warranty or they will be paying fines up to �90 mio. - their choice :biggrin:
VW Is Fined $111 Million in Antitrust Case - NYTimes.com
Europeans Expected to Fine Daimler in Antitrust Case - NYTimes.com�
Jan 15, 2010
dpeilow
It would be interesting if they have done that. Certainly early marketing cars here were US spec, but they could not have such firmware. It would be possible for them to use GPS to detect its location and refuse to charge, or maybe detect whether the AC supply was 50Hz vs. 60Hz.
But without such artificial restrictions it should be possible to charge.
If this is a genuine friend to friend second hand sale, as opposed to just arranging for someone to be a proxy for you, then Tesla not supporting you seems a bit harsh.�
Jan 15, 2010
k3000
That's not the issue... Tesla HAS to grant me support by Europes anti-trust law.
If they don't want to, they have to stop selling the Roadster in Europe.
Of course talking friendly to the reps and trying to explain is always the best solution.
I'm seeing a really naive behaviour here from Tesla USA trying to enter the European car market with half a dozen employess who run one man show in each country. Selling cars in Europe is a dead serious and difficult thing. One wrong step (artificial restrictions! firmware! yepeeee, anti trust i'm coming!) puts you out of business as a small company. :frown:
Antitrust issues in Europe are a very serious thing. I know what I'm talking about... I'm a lawyer myself. :smile:
Sorry guys when this sounds harsh, I was just suprised by the hostility I got from Tesla when I was asking for some advice.�
Jan 15, 2010
doug This car a 2008 or a 2010?�
Jan 15, 2010
Alfred Contact local import specialist
You might wish to contact one or two of those specialised US-car importers. They could give you for starters a good idea of the costs to expect currently. Try e.g. Laupen-Garage
To this you then have to add the Tesla Roadster specific modifications. From what has been discussed here, I remember that the European versions have e.g. a different rear bumper with modifications to lights and the space for the licence plate. Another detail mentioned was a different behaviour of brake lights when regenerative breaking sets in.
The US have a very different setup for domestic electricity. You will e.g. need for the car European (modified) versions of the MC240 and the smaller 10/16A roadster specific cables and connectors. There are evident safety and regulatory issues also here. The changes needed could reach also into the car's software. Link the two and I would think it rather risky for Tesla to attempt a quick fix - even if it were easy and if they would have the resources to do so readily available. An accident with this fast car vaguely attributable to such change would be the last thing they would want to risk.�
Jan 15, 2010
NEWDL K3000,
Believe me that Tesla wants nothing more than for you to have a Roadster (new or used) and for you to enjoy that Roadster with the least amount of issues. That being said, Tesla has lawyers two, and has done far more research that you on the subject of liability and what they are and are not required to do for customers who export the vehicles. Euro Roadsters and US Roadsters do not have identical systems. There are differences that will drastically affect usage (or lack there of) in a country with different power availability.
Whatever money you think you will be saving will be a moot point when service is denied and you have a vehicle that will not work correctly in europe. Tesla DOES NOT HAVE TO SERVICE US SPEC ROADSTERS IN EUROPE.
Pointing out a VW suit is not indication of liability. VW and Tesla are two very different companies with two very different products. Not to mention differences in production volume. Does VW have to put a passenger airbag switch in the seat for occupant detection? YES. Well Tesla does not due to variances in the laws due to low volume manufacturers.
DO NOT MAKE THE MISTAKE OF ASSUMING THE LAWS ARE ABSOLUTE. THIS IS A VERY STUPID MISTAKE TO MAKE TO SAVE A FEW THOUSAND.
Personally I would be looking for a used euro spec roadster, or buy the US roadster, and flip it (inside the US) for a profit if the deal is so great. Then use that money to buy a Euro Roadster.
If you do this, TESLA WILL NOT WARRANTY YOUR CAR. Your vehicle has a U.S. Warranty. I would make really good friends with the company who ships your roadster to europe....cause you will be working with them again soon.
End of story.�
Jan 16, 2010
qwk I agree with the above. Tesla does not have to honor a US warranty outside of the us.
Do yourself a big favor and skip the hassle involved in this scenario.
Since European and US roadsters have different charging hardware and software, you will NOT win this battle.�
Jan 16, 2010
tdelta1000 My simple thought is to be smart and be safe about getting you Roadster to Switzerland. I would rather see you have your on the road rather than sitting idle.
If I understand the problem correctly then why wouldn't Tesla or someone develop an interface unit that takes the European standard of power and convert it to the USA standard of power it some does not want to go through a long process?
Please forgive me if I come across sounding like a doof.�
Jan 16, 2010
k3000
That's funny, because that's EXACTLY what VW and Porsche said a week before they had to wire �90mio to Brussels.
These days they honor a 2 year guarantee worldwide for cars bought in the USA.�
Jan 16, 2010
NEWDL Fine, lets look at it this way....
You buy the U.S. Roadster against TESLA, and everyone else's suggestions. You have issues charging your car and have to call Telsa EU for help. They deny assistance because it is a U.S. Spec Roadster.
How long do you think you will have to fight before you get the result you are looking for? IF IT HAPPENS AT ALL? How long will your Roadster be unusable? It is your responsibility to keep a charge in the vehicle and if you can not, YOU will have to absorb the cost of a new ESS (Battery Pack).
It feels to me that you are looking for trouble. If the manufacturer of a vehicle told me they would not support the vehicle I was purchasing for X amount of dollars and I had no other repair options I would find another way....not just simply fight because I am a fighter.
Again, It does not matter what VW and Porsche had to do. VW Group and Tesla are two very different animals. I am not familiar with VW's warranty wording. Nor do I care.
This is in my opinion a loosing battle, but if nothing else, it is going to be a long drawn-out battle between you and the manufacturer of a vehicle you would love if you could drive it. You will be buying a very large very expensive lawn ornament with no timeframe of when you would have a drivable vehicle and how much that may cost you (Buying a new ESS or cost of reprograming, connectors, ect...).
Once again I suggest you look at the responses on this board, and compare them with the answers you got from Tesla. Once you have those in mind, look at how much you are saving by buying the US roadster, and then take into account your hourly rate and think about how long this will take you. Add Misc incurred costs and see how much you really think you will save.�
Jan 16, 2010
qwk Some people just have to learn the hard way, I guess.�
Jan 16, 2010
NEWDL Yes, it feels that way...but the question is why?
This is one of the best vehicles on the road with some of the least headaches of any sports car EVER. Why complicate it and make it a headache?�
Jan 16, 2010
qwk Most people only look at upfront cost only, and don't factor in overall cost. This is one of the reasons EV's are not mainstream yet.�
Jan 16, 2010
raymond Already many US roadsters in Europe.
As far as I know there already are quite a few US spec roadsters in Europe. There are a few in Norway, and even the one I drove in The Netherlands was a US spec roadster (which most certainly was being charged with a EU power supply).
Homologation of a US spec roadster in The Netherlands is not *that* complicated: AFAIK a change of headlights will do the job. But these rules do vary (hugely!) by country.
Does the charging system really differ? I'm pretty sure the car doesn't distinguish between EU and US electrons! In the worst case you'd need to reduce our 240V to 220V. But again, the Norwegians can tell you what's necessary.
Unfortunately the only way to see if Tesla may be compared with VW is to try. Looking at other cases I think Tesla must (and should want to!) service your car throughout the EU.�
Jan 16, 2010
NEWDL In my opinion the costs (actual and projected) out weigh the benefits. I could do much more effective things with my time than fight about warranty service on a car that I was told not to export.�
Jan 17, 2010
RGB So, you can't import a product because the company doesn't want you to? Are you guys serious?
Someone is asking "how to" and you guys tell him "don't" because a manufacturer doesn't want their product in another market? My personal, humble opinion is that that alone is a good reason to do it. Seriously, that doesn't have anything to do with trying to make trouble but with making a decision about whether or not to by a product and where to buy it.
Of course Tesla Europe can (and should) charge for any service they have to do to the car (other than warranty) but refuse it?? Not a good idea!
Personally I can't imagine that there should be any problems with a US spec Roadster over here once the cosmetic changes (and maybe a software update) have been done. With the european charger I can't see charging being a problem either.�
Jan 17, 2010
k3000
Thanks for the support RGB. :smile:
I think NEWDL (besides like sounding like the Tesla employee I was on the phone with) made some valid points regarding (outrageous?) effective costs involved which have to be considered as well. But there's a really straightforward solution to that: Hire a freight forwarder and you will be fine. There's dozens of freight companies who will import cars for you for a flat rate. So there's no "imaginary" costs involved like NEWDL was implying. Statements like that belong to the tooth fairy section.
Besides that, it's always the same thing with car imports: People try to scare you with fantasy stories about your potential private bankruptcy if you dare to import from the USA.
I experienced the very similar thing with BMW and Porsche imports from the USA: Every rep you talk to tells you fantasy stories and people you talk to tell you the same fantasy stories they heard from others simply because they're jealous because they're not smart enough to do it.
But I did, ended up paying 50% less for a BMW X5 and thought: hey, this was easy. Let's do it again.
As far as I'm concerned, the costs are very predictable:
- 1st hand Tesla Roadster with a low 5 figure milage: $55'000
- Freight company to handle shipping, paperwork, customs... basically everything it takes to get the car to your front door (100% hassle free guarantee): �650 (well worth it!)
- Container Shipping from the US East Coast to Rotterdam: �380 + �250 from Rotterdam to Switzerland by Truck (the freight company will charge you this extra)
- 4% Customs and 7.6% VAT for Switzerland
- $3000 Homologation costs (headlights, license plate, bulbs etc. by a US Imports specialist)
- To be on the safe side I add $2000 for inspection by the EMPA, but personally I think this will not be necessary.
- $1500 for a 3-year warranty contract with a Swiss car insurance (who needs the US warranty anyways? Drive your Roadster worry free for less than $50 a month)
- There's more costs involved like the Home Connector or Electrician, but these costs occur in the USA as well so I won't count them here.
Roughly this sums up to $68'000 or �45'000.
Compared to a new Tesla Roadster (incl. VAT) of �110'000 in Switzerland, I'd say this is a pretty damn sweet deal! :biggrin:
I will be importing myself a Porsche Panamera 4S from the USA for the �65k I save :biggrin:
As far as the service is concerned: I can have a very simple reason to own a US Roadster in Europe. Let's say I been living in the US for the past 2 years driving a Roadster. Now I need to move to Switzerland/Germany for whatever reason (job, family...) and I take my Roadster with me. I need a service and I go the the Tesla guys in Munich. I don't want any warranty to be honored (I have the 3-warranty-contract anyways
I don't think so.�
Jan 17, 2010
dpeilow Are the rear turn signals / indicators on the US model red? I thought I saw that. Anyway, if so you'd need to source the orange LEDs (maybe the whole cluster) which would obviously have to be from Tesla themselves.
On the other hand, I can't see why people are getting worried about the charging side of things. If there are restrictions, they are totally artificial.�
Jan 17, 2010
NEWDL K3000.
I truly could give a ____ (insert favorite word here) less what you end up doing. I personally would not go through the headache.
I look at the Tesla as an amazing deal for the car as is. My time is worth more than the hassle.
Maybe it comes down to the value of time....
I don't waste mine.�
Jan 17, 2010
k3000
The title of this thread says: help needed. If you can't help, why do you bother posting?
There's better ways to get rid of your frustration than forum posts. Even in Ohio. Feel free to proof your frustration to the other board members by adding another comment. Thanks.�
Jan 17, 2010
dpeilow OK let's keep these things civil, please.
It is obviously a personal circumstance thing. Some may have the resource to go and buy the car outright, for others it is not an option. That doesn't mean they want the car any less.
There is not exactly a large second hand market for the cars yet, especially in Europe. If importing a second hand vehicle from the US is possible for a little bit more hassle, so what? At that price I am tempted myself.
He's buying a second hand car, so it's not like Tesla US are losing out on a sale, and Tesla EU ultimately gets his cash for ongoing servicing. It would be silly not to support it.
I bought my last car directly from Germany. It was marginally more hassle for a 20% saving (inc transport and registration fees). I don't regret doing it a bit.�
Jan 17, 2010
pequalsvi firstly there is no substitute for the Tesla factory warantee.
Secondly all roadsters have a country identity which is embedded in the vehicle. US vehicles will not charge in Europe unless their identity is changed which can only be done by Tesla themselves.�
Jan 17, 2010
raymond a) How does the car know it's in Europe? GPS? Net frequency? I would love to see this one confirmed (reliably)
b) So what if you move from the US to Europe? There are quite a few US cars on the roads here - driving a US car in Europe is not an exception!
Can you charge a US car in Canada? Mexico? I really don't think so, but if anybody has reliable/verifiable information on this please do post!�
Jan 17, 2010
qwk a)The roadster probably doesn't know where it is on the planet, but the charging equipment is different. You could rig up an adapter to make it charge, but it will most likely void the warranty.
b) You have to show proof of moving from one country to another when trying to get the title changed. I tried importing a Canadian vehicle to the US, and there are no loopholes. You could title and register it, if you have a connection at the DMV, but if you get in an accident you might get sued, since the vehicles have different safety requirements in each country.�
Jan 17, 2010
k3000 Dear Tesla Employee
Thanks for registering at the forum.
Unfortunately your statement is very false.
As false as it gets, actually. :smile:
You can have your Roadster warranty insured and they will take care of your Roadster without Tesla having to honor any warranty.
As I mentioned before, a so called "Reparaturkostenversicherung" costs you approx. $50 bucks/month and runs for any given number of years you choose with basically unlimited mileage.
For example http://www.acs.ch offers such an insurance in Switzerland and I'm very convinced that our Roadster friends in the Netherlands, Germany or the UK can get similar types of insurance in their country.
Quod erat demonstrandum.�
Jan 17, 2010
qwk It sounds like you know everything already, so just go ahead and import the car.
Why come on here and ask?�
Jan 17, 2010
trevorlsciact Don't be so arrogant. Tesla is an electric car, and that complicates things quite a bit, there are legitimate differences as far as charging goes--gas is gas no matter the country. They are also very low volume.�
Jan 17, 2010
doug Eh, not so much. Electricity is electricity and is easily converted. It really shouldn't be a big deal to charge the car. The question is if Tesla wants to make it easy or difficult.�
Jan 17, 2010
Cobos Actually that is probably false. Electrons are actually electrons, while I know at least diesel fuel is different in Norway compared to Spain due to temperature ranges. Premium gasoline in Norway is leadfree 98, while in the US it's leadfree 94-95 if I recall correctly.
Regardless I'm pretty sure Tesla has to abide by the same consumerprotection laws as every other car manufacturer in Europe. That means they have to deal with grey-imports. But as Doug says, Tesla can choose to make that difficult or easy, and k3000 might have to drag Tesla to a European court to prove the point. At the same time as a layman I beleive Tesla will loose that case, both from a PR standpoint and the legal case. If k3000 really want to spend so much resources on that and gamble on it is a different issue of course.
And I might say Tesla did set this one up themselves, they've got what a 30-50% markup for the Euro Roadsters comapred to US models, someone is bound to try it.
Cobos�
Jan 18, 2010
k3000 Guys
Quite fascinating how emotional the posts are in this thread... which is telling me we are on to something here! :biggrin:
Let me summarize:
- Despite all the fairy tales floating around regarding compatibility and plugs, US Roadsters will charge in every country on this planet with your US Home Connector. It's just a matter of a good electrician and a transformator.
- Persons who are not sure whether Tesla Europe will honor their US warranty in Europe can get a warranty insurance contract from their local car insurance company to replace or extend that US warranty.
- Freight companies will deliver US cars hassle free to your front door in Europe for a flat rate. They will deal with customs, insurance, VAT and all the paperwork for you.
- If you import a brandnew Roadster, you will be saving 40% off the European retail price, but you will have to pay your VAT and customs.
- European consumer protection laws are brutal. Car manufacturers selling in the EU have to obey them, no matter if they sell 2 or 2mio. cars a year.
The main question remaining is the homologation procedure.
Does anyone here driving a US spec Roadster in Europe remember which changes had to be made to your car? One member mentioned replacing red LEDs with orange LEDs.
Is there more?�
Jan 18, 2010
dpeilow Quite surprised by the pessimism about US->EU charging on here...
The US 240V supply is going to look like the UK one is all but frequency. Frequency isn't going to be a problem to any modern power supply and I very much doubt they were fitting different PEMs to the early marketing cars / VPs that were over here. Besides, I was under the impression that the cars were pretty much omnivorous when it came to supply. As I said above, if there are restrictions they are artificial. Given that one owner on here is planning a round-the-world trip without Tesla's support, they might want to confirm whether this is true.
There are at least two members here that have experience of using US charging equipment on a European supply (RFMC), one as the user and the other as supplier - maybe they can let us know how that went?
Those with a keen eye might have spotted a familiar sight at the back of this London photograph:
So the charging equipment is not very different, if at all.
The only concern I do have is that if k3000 does take out a 3rd party warranty, then the warranty house might have difficulty in getting something like a new ESS if it was needed. That should be checked very carefully.�
![[?IMG]](http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/attachments/tesla-roadster/541d1263500565-racing-roadster-raceroadster1.jpg)
Jan 18, 2010
NEWDL You are o so very welcome. I will refrain from commenting about your wonderful
I hope this is not the case and best of luck with your future endeavors.�
Jan 18, 2010
raymond About a year ago I asked the Dutch organisation in charge of approving imported cars ("RDW") about what required changes are typical when importing a US car to the EU. Their reply (translated):
1. Permanently lit orange lights on the front of the car need to be disabled [easy]
2. A fog light must be present; the fog light switch must contain an embedded warning indicator [to show the light is on]
3. Red reflectors on the side must be removed or replaced by orange ones
4. Signal (turn) indicators must be present on the front sides [not sure if the Tesla indicators would pass]
5. Headlights must comply to EU light pattern [I did this once for a Japanese import; you typically need to replace the headlights]
I have explicitly asked about the coloring of the lights and was told that red turn signals are legal and need not be replaced by orange ones.
There are quite a few shops over here that do this on a daily basis as the difference between US import prices and EU prices can be HUGE.
And really: it is just a car. A battery, a motor, brakes. We've seen all that before. And grey imports are just that: imports. Happens every day, completely legal, etc. And Tesla doesn't want a bad rep. and they want to keep selling Tesla's in Europe.
I'd say: go for it!�
Jan 18, 2010
bolosky When I plug my (US-spec) Roadster into the NEMA 14-50 outlet in my garage using my RFMC, the VDS typically reports ~244V. It's worked for nearly 5 months now.
It also worked fine (though slightly slower) when I plugged it in at an RV park and it reported 208V.
So, I doubt that 220V vs 240V is an issue.�
Jan 18, 2010
WarpedOne 220V in Europe is not 220V anymore for a long time now. Its closer to 230 - 240V.
No, they are not mandatory for all Europe. Maybe for some countries but not all.
Indicator light can be embedded into the switch or in the dash.�
Jan 18, 2010
ChargeIt! Is that refering to front white (or yellow) fog lights or a rear red fog light ("Nebelschlussleuchte") ?�
Jan 18, 2010
Cobos As the front fog lights in Norway at least is still often listed as extras I beleive it's the rear red fog lights. My 1984 car even has the rear fog lights and no front fog lights which strengthens my hypothesis.
Cobos�
Jan 19, 2010
k3000 Thanks guys.
Your information was very helpful!
According to your technical specs I made quite a few phonecalls yesterday and I finally found a garage in Switzerland who will do the homologation! They already did the homologation for half a dozen US Roadsters for the EU. Since they recently even got a speciality license to service EVs (in Switzerland you need some kind of "high voltage" industry approval") they will be able to service the Roadster for the time being. This is great news.
...now a good friend of mine is even buying a brand new one in the USA :smile:
I will have them imported together with my 2nd hand vehicle.
For my friend the cost breakdown is:
- brandnew Roadster $99'000
- Freight door-to-door $3800 (USA-Switzerland, hassle free with insurance, takes 3 weeks)
- 4% customs, 7.6% Tax = $11'000
- $2500 homologation
- $1800 for a 3-year-warranty insurance to replace the Tesla manufacturer warranty (actually it's even better, it has unlimited mileage!:smile
- $2000 for a transformator (for the home connector) which will deliver the Amperes needed for an identical charging experience like in the USA.
Total: $119'800
These are actual costs, I have all the offers on my table as of this writing.
Compared to what Tesla is charging in Switzerland: �85'000 plus VAT = $140'000.
That's a quick saving of $20'000 for a few phone calls and one thread in this forum! Sweet deal I guess :biggrin:
Importing does pay off! That's basically a free upgrade to the Roadster Sport.�
Jan 19, 2010
LST Good news
Can you tell us the name of the garage ?
Thank you and good luck�
Jan 19, 2010
dpeilow Well done. Please keep us up to date with your progress - I'm sure many of us are interested to see how you get on.�
Jan 19, 2010
bolosky Really? The base list price is $109,000 and you've also got to pay a "destination fee" of several thousand dollars (even if you pick it up in Menlo Park where it's made). Even subtracting the $7500 federal tax incentive and assuming that you're in a no-sales-tax state (or a state like Washington that exempts EVs), it comes out to more than $99,000. And that's assuming no options (a decent charger, paint guard, upgraded interior, better wheels, electronics package, better tires, premium paint colors, etc.)
Mine came out to just under $120,000 before the tax rebate (not counting the RFMC that I bought on the side), and I certainly didn't go overboard with options.
They didn't lower the price while I wasn't looking, did they?�
Jan 19, 2010
NEWDL Nope, Base List for a U.S. Roadster is $109,000 k3000 is looking on the used U.S. market for export to his country.�
Jan 19, 2010
ChargeIt! @NEWDL: Yes, that is his goal for his own Roadster. But read more carefully ... (blue emphasis mine):
So ... bolosky is right to ask for an explanation ...�
Jan 21, 2010
qwk I agree. This guy might be full of it.
First he found a used roadster for 55k USD, and now he could get a new one for 99k from Tesla? Come on.
I could remotely see Tesla giving a discount to someone that is a very good repeat customer, but if they told him to not export a US model outside of the US, I doubt the above is true.�
Jan 21, 2010
k3000 you guys are right, i got the math wrong.
$109'000
- $7500 tax rebate from obama
- $5000 tax relief from the state of colorado
no sales tax if you use a US car exporter who is willing to pass you on his sales tax refund if you use his company to ship the car.
that's $96'500 for the brandnew roadster.
yes, i am full of it. :biggrin:�
Jan 21, 2010
qwk I think the individual state refunds are based off of state income tax. You have to file your taxes in that state.�
Jan 21, 2010
k3000 You are absolutely right. The deal will be done in Denver.�
Jan 21, 2010
ChargeIt! And you think you get to receive (and keep) the rebates/refund if the vehicle is exported for a friend ? Hmmm ...�
Jan 21, 2010
NEWDL Too bad you were not looking to do this 3 months ago.... Colorado had a much more attractive purchase incentive for the roadster....
I would honestly look into if there is a rule with how long you have to keep the roadster in the state before receiving the rebate....
I seem to remember some strings there....�
Jan 21, 2010
TEG http://www.rules.house.gov/110/text/110_hr4221_text.pdf
�
Jan 22, 2010
k3000 thanks for the link, appreciated.
i'm familiar with the content.
I don't know everything about cars, but I'm a lawyer and I do know my taxes, trust me.
the car will have US license plates for a year after the purchase and will be registered in the USA. Thanks for the hint NEWDL. the car will still be registerd in Colorado by the time the refund will be granted.
there's plenty of more ways to save money with this car for me... for example it will have US license plates in Switzerland for a year, that's the maximum allowed for a foreign car before it has to be registered in Switzerland.
After that, the car will be taxed as an import for the current value which will be easily $30'000 less, so that's another 11.6% saved VAT on $30'000. over $3000 straight into my pocket. thanks, swiss government.
plus there's indirect benefits, like I will be paying for the car with my AmEx Centurion. This purchase will give me enought Miles in my Frequent Flyer program to get 2 free tickets to Australia for me and my wife. Another $4000 value. Free vacation in Sydney, thank you AmEx.
Brings down the actual cost of the car down to less than $110k here in Switzerland compared to the $140k retail. I can live with that.
Is it so hard to believe that you can save a lot of money if you use a few of your brain cells every now and then?�
Jan 22, 2010
qwk To me, using a public forum to post your tax evasion plans, is not exactly using your brain cells.�
Jan 22, 2010
k3000 although i must admit "tax evasion" is a serious sounding term (hi to mr. geithner), this has absolutely nothing to do with tax evasion.
tax evasion is efforts not to pay taxes by illegal means. then there's tax avoidance, which is completely legal. but that's another story.
as a rule of thumb, legal terms probably should be used by lawyers only when the context is right i guess?
now i had to use my brain cells again. ay ay.�
Jan 22, 2010
qwk You know it all, I guess. You win.�
Jan 22, 2010
tdelta1000 K3000 has a plan in place that anyone on this forum can follow. Good luck and Godspeed to my fellow Tesla Motors enthusiast.�
Aug 20, 2011
calif Hi K3000.
I'm in a similar situation.
did it actually work out for you the way you described it? Did you save the 30k??
If it did work out, what were the biggest hassles? Already had a warranty case?
�
Aug 20, 2011
k3000 Yes, of course it worked.
Actually the car turned out to be less than half the price considering the dollar/swissie exchange rate.
Tesla Europe is a rip off.
Why worry about the warranty if you can throw away the first car, buy a second one and still be cheaper off?�
Aug 20, 2011
S-2000 Roadster I had heard that there was an incredible amount of fraud concerning the $7,500 federal income tax write-off.
Considering that the U.S. law states that the tax refund is invalid for vehicles used outside the United States, it sounds to me like licensing a vehicle in the U.S. and using it in Switzerland is equivalent to fraud. I also heard that you have to owe federal income taxes in excess of $7,500 in order to receive $7,500 - they won't just write you a check for nothing. Again, I'm sure there are ways to make this look legitimate by having someone in the U.S. claim that they're actually using the car here, but that's not 100% honest and therefore it's fraud.
Apart from the federal tax writeoff, I still hope the rest of your plans are successful.�
Aug 21, 2011
k3000 Thanks, but I don't need hope here since everything already worked out very smoothly.
It's interesting to observe how people start to whine and cry around on the internet as soon as it appears that someone was actually smarter than themselves.
S2000 just gave a perfect demonstration.
Go figure: I'm a lawyer. Don't try to tell a lawyer what fraud is. You are are massively embarassing yourself.
Now that I've addressed your trolling here's the news for you: As long as I'm smart enough to register a vehicle in the US I can have use that vehicle wherever I want to on this planet and I can have my tax rebates nevertheless. Thank you Barry Soetero, you're a good president.�
Aug 21, 2011
dsm363 Lawyers never commit fraud, got it. So you're a 'birther' on top of everything else. Welcome to the forum.
Oh, and tax tax credit was started under Bush and continued under Obama.�
Aug 21, 2011
tennis_trs That's an incredibly offensive statement! I believe the point is that lawyers are much smarter than everyone else and know the law well enough that they can usually make sure not to be convicted of any fraud.
It didn't seem like S2000 was "whine"ing or "cry"ing, especially since it seems like he lives in the USA and drives his Tesla here, so there was no option for him to save the money that might be possible when shipping out of the USA, vs. buying in the destination country.
Yup, thank you W.!�
Aug 21, 2011
qwk Do you have any proof that you actually exported a roadster from the US?
Your story sounds like pure BS to me.�
Aug 21, 2011
bonnie Wow. I found this whole thread offensive for a number of reasons. As I was reading, I was trying to decide what was bothering me the most (coffee is still brewing) ... and realized how no one was talking about the 'gaming of the system'. US tax incentives have a clear purpose. While this whole import scheme may be technically legal (and I'm sure another lawyer might disagree with some posts here), it does not meet the intent of the law.
We talk about asking that EV parking spaces not be prime parking spots, to help with public acceptance of public charging How about we ask our fellow EV owners to comply with the intent of the law? This whole thread will be GREAT fodder for some anti-incentive group to publicize. It hurts all of us.
I'm offended.�
Aug 21, 2011
bonnie To clarify - I'm not offended by the import of any car. It's the gaming of the incentive system (and bragging about it) that totally pisses me off.�
Aug 21, 2011
Mitrovic What a sad, sad thread...�
Aug 21, 2011
dsm363 Sorry, I didn't mean that to be offensive. Was meant to be a sarcastic statement. I agree with S-2000 Roadster.
Yes, I agree. Sad thread.�
Aug 21, 2011
Adm Come on guys, somebody apparently found a loop hole and used it. Such is life, it happens every day and sometimes at a scale much bigger than this guy.
It's bad taste to flaunt it here on this forum. Why not just shut up and enjoy the car.
I wonder how Tesla will handle service and firmware updates...�
Aug 21, 2011
tennis_trs I liked your sarcasm and was just following your lead. :smile:�
Aug 21, 2011
S-2000 Roadster Of course it worked out smoothly : you lied! That's fraud. I'm not talking about the import process, that's totally legal as you described it (as far as I can tell). What's fraudulent is your defrauding the United States of a tax incentive.
I do not have to be a lawyer to understand English (or to spell - check yours).
I won't quote the tax incentive language again because it's already been quoted in full on this thread, but it clearly states that it is not for cars "used" outside the U.S. Your vehicle is not being used in the U.S., so if you have the $7,500 then you are in violation of the letter of the law.
Just because you're a lawyer who hasn't been caught doesn't mean you aren't guilty of fraud.�
Aug 22, 2011
qwk Everyone is probably getting riled up for nothing. First, nobody in their right mind would have sold a roadster to this guy for $50k almost two years ago when the used prices were close to new.
Second, the US roadsters differ from European models. They have different charging firmware, and many other differences to make the car roadworthy and legal.
Third, Tesla Europe would most likely not honor the US warranty, and service would not be cheap either, assuming they would even do it.
This guy is so full of it it's not even funny. Unless I see proof, this is just a fairytale....�
Aug 22, 2011
TEG I know of some used Roadsters that were bought in the USA, then "gray market" exported to Europe. Not the one mentioned here, but others. Things were modified on them to make them fit the local regulations of the country where they were going. Also there were various certification delays and hassles to get it done, so, at the end of the day, one starts to wonder if it is really worth all the hassle. Also, I don't know what happens if you ever try to bring one in for service.�
Aug 22, 2011
qwk Wasn't this before they were widely available in Europe though? I think the cost savings today are minimal after all of the exporting/changes are made.�
Aug 22, 2011
TEG No, the ones I heard about were done in an effort to save money. Some of the eBay auctions that went for $75K for instance.
But after all the fees for shipping, modification, re-certification, and such, it starts to become less attractive.�
Aug 27, 2011
dpeilow Re the possible defrauding of the US taxpayer: If the objective of the scheme is to get one more EV on the road, does it matter where in the world it is?�
Aug 27, 2011
bonnie Yes. It matters to me, since it is my tax dollars. Many incentive programs have already run out of funds or cut the amount that is paid (California reduced from max of $5K to $2500 this year, Colorado had huge incentives early on that are now gone). To me, that translates to less EVs on the road in the US, which 1) means that EV in another part of the world is not an additional sale, but only a replacement for a sale that would have occurred with incentives available, and 2) ultimately translates to less support for building up the infrastructure.
And let's not talk about the carbon footprint of flying a car back and forth around the world.�
Aug 27, 2011
bonnie And I guess my biggest concern is one I stated earlier - when people game the incentive system, it will very likely end up as part of someone's anti-ev blog, along the lines of "see, those liberalenvironmentalistglobalwarmingvegetarians are misusing YOUR tax dollars". That hurts all of us.�
Aug 27, 2011
S-2000 Roadster For this particular legislation, it does matter. They took the time to spell out that it was intended for cars used in the U.S. Now, if folks here really wanted to encourage EV all over the world, then we could petition our government to write a new incentive or perhaps rewrite the old one. Until then, it's really not fair for a few people to pretend like a car is being used in the U.S. just to get this money.
We've already subsidized enough European biodiesel to the tune of $1 per gallon, including the same shipping back and forth from continent to continent. That's enough global perspective for my tax dollar. I'd rather not see the huge EV incentives leave the country as well.�
Aug 27, 2011
ChadS If the US tax incentives were only to lower CO2 emissions, you would have a really good case that it doesn't matter where the car is.
But the incentives are meant to solve other problems too. Particulate emissions, for example, stay more local than CO2 and are causing US asthma, pneumonia and death, so the US money is meant to result in fewer particles here (not that I personally don't care about children and the elderly breathing particulates elsewhere, but that's how tax incentives work). Similarly, buying local electricity rather than foreign oil helps the economy and national security of the country that the car is driven in; so again it matters where the car is.
The kind-of funny thing is that [almost] every country has the same concerns and same reasons to switch to electric; it's just that each country wants their own dollars solving the problem in their own area. It does make you wonder if there's an approach to solving these problems that would be wider in scope. But to the extent that tax dollars, economies and national security are separate, this will probably always be an issue.�
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