teslamotorclub: Model 3 Wish List part 1

What is your wishlist for an idealized Gen 3 Tesla? Here is what I'm thinking.

- $35,000 base price
- Loaded performance version for $65,000
- 200 mile base range
- 300+ mile EPA large battery option
- Supercharger capable
- Performance version in sub 4s 0-60 range
- Same motor as Model S to reduce unique parts
- Same battery platform, perhaps 100kW option with improved 18650 cells
- Solar roof option for ventilation/reduced parasite battery drain
- LED headlight

That just about covers a car that would suit me.
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@ratsbew

I would add:

- ACC
- AWD available as option
- Blind spot detection system
- Pedestrian and obstacle detection system
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The thing is that Elon said Gen III would not have all the features that the Model S has. It's going to be a smaller and lesser featured version of the S. I wouldn't expect any of the above. If you want all the high tech cool stuff you'll need to get the S (assuming of course they have completed those features for the S by then). These were words right out of Elon's mouth at one of his talks. They need to keep the costs down so it's not going to have all the cool high-techie stuff the S has.
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yobigd20 said: ?

The thing is that Elon said Gen III would not have all the features that the Model S has. It's going to be a smaller and lesser featured version of the S. I wouldn't expect any of the above. If you want all the high tech cool stuff you'll need to get the S (assuming of course they have completed those features for the S by then). These were words right out of Elon's mouth at one of his talks. They need to keep the costs down so it's not going to have all the cool high-techie stuff the S has.
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Agree. But maybe a Super AWD P++ Gen 3 could be available?

Then IMO at least the safety features should be available on all Tesla Models.
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yobigd20 said: ?

The thing is that Elon said Gen III would not have all the features that the Model S has. It's going to be a smaller and lesser featured version of the S. I wouldn't expect any of the above. If you want all the high tech cool stuff you'll need to get the S (assuming of course they have completed those features for the S by then). These were words right out of Elon's mouth at one of his talks. They need to keep the costs down so it's not going to have all the cool high-techie stuff the S has.
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I don't think that anything I mentioned is too outlandish. I doubt the 3 will be an econobox.
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Raffy.Roma said: ?

@ratsbew

I would add:

- ACC
- AWD available as option
- Blind spot detection system
- Pedestrian and obstacle detection system
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What's with AWD?? This is not an off road car. And there are many videos showing that the 2WD Model S and Roadster are more than capable in the snow. AWD is a mental game. All of a sudden you think you can go faster, do corners better, drive crazy, go where you should not be, and then you're in trouble. I have seen 3 Jeeps upside down on curves this last year. I suspect there were deaths. AWD does not make the car safer. I have driven for over 50 years, on back roads, gravel, unpaved, in show and ice in the midwest. NEVER was in a place where I couldn't go.

It's a waste of money. I hope it is never available on the Gen 3. But of course, what do I know? Most cars with 4WD and AWD never get off the pavement. Or maybe they are able to drive onto the soccer field to let the kiddies out, as if you couldn't do that with the S.

I take small exception to the idea that we need all these gadgets to drive our cars, watch out for people and obstacles, or control cruise so we can doze off and not have to drive the car. If people didn't weave in and out of traffic, they wouldn't be cutting people off. If they would look at the rear camera picture, maybe they wouldn't hit those pedestrians, or if they would slow down in the parking lot or at intersections, maybe might not cream the kids in the crosswalks. It's called awareness. There is precious little of that.

Nothing against YOU, raffy. Just that so many want another way to cop out. "My blind spot monitor didn't warn me in time!" "There was water on my back up lens!" Driving requires us to be involved.
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@roblab

I understand your view. In fact I wrote AWD available as option. Not compulsory. Then people will be free to get it or not.
I am a lover of safety features and IMO AWD is useful for safety reasons. I see that you also disagree on the other safety features that I would like. Also the obstacles and pedestrian detection system could be options. That very much depends upon the driver's will. I have seen some accidents where the driver couldn't do anything to avoid them and where only an automated system could have done something.
My opinion is that Tesla should guarantee maximum rating of safety depending upon the driver's will. Then it's up to you to choose such safety features or not.
Unless the law makes such safety features compulsory. For instance in Europe ACC with complete stop will be compulsory in 2015.
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I have to say it..

pockets
usable cup holders for all passengers

With that being, I now really enjoy the large area between the front seats. Hope that stays.
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We would very much like to believe that we could justify keeping a Tesla in Europe for our travels there. Another Model S would be very nice....except that in our opinion it really is too big a vehicle for two reasons: (1), just the two of us - no family in tow; and (2) a very large number of Europe's city streets are far friendlier to navigate with a vehicle significantly smaller than the Model S.

So....our desiderata include:
1. a price as near as possible as what TMC has been touting for some years now - around $35K
2. a significantly smaller footprint, as above
3. a range in the 300km region - that should jibe well enough with Tesla's European SpC network to suffice
4. handling that is reminiscent of what the Model S affords. Not looking for identical - this is a vehicle with a price point 40% of the S. It shouldn't be the same!
5. looks that are more reminiscent of a Lotus or Alfa Romeo than a Trabant or, say, Dad's 1950 Austin A40..... :scared:
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This is my wish list for Gen III:

- Base price at or under $40,000
- Length of 185 in or less
- 200 mile base range
- 300+ mile EPA large battery option
- Supercharger capable
- 0-60 6 flat or less
- 5-door (hatchback) configuration, like Model S
- LED headlights

A high-performance version that's like 4 second 0-60 is fine, but 6 flat would be plenty quick for me, and I think most target buyers in the $40-45k price range. Common motor with Model S is an interesting possibility. As it is, it's very compact, and could be software-tuned for different performance levels.
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igotzzoom said: ?

This is my wish list for Gen III:

- Base price at or under $40,000
- Length of 185 in or less
- 200 mile base range
- 300+ mile EPA large battery option
- Supercharger capable
- 0-60 6 flat or less
- 5-door (hatchback) configuration, like Model S
- LED headlights

A high-performance version that's like 4 second 0-60 is fine, but 6 flat would be plenty quick for me, and I think most target buyers in the $40-45k price range. Common motor with Model S is an interesting possibility. As it is, it's very compact, and could be software-tuned for different performance levels.
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You're basically just asking them to knock $40k off the Model S.
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Door pockets
Cup holders for all seats
Overhead door handles
Sunglass hutch over mirror
GPS
Satellite radio
iPhone integration
Backup camera
Seat and mirror heaters
Bluetooth
At least 200 mi range, with option to get closer to 300
Option for 20 kW charging
Auto dimming rear view mirror
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Agree with most of Audie's points. I'd hope for a smaller car, perhaps only four passengers, maybe just two doors plus a hatchback. Eliminating two doors may limit the cost. The MS is already plenty fast, but I'm sure that a performance option will be available. Also agree that having many parts in common should reduce production costs. Gen 3 has got to have killer styling! Nobody on these forums will be wiling to drive a boring car. At the point that Gen 3 arrives in 2017-18, it will need to be upgradable (at some point) to self-driving.
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I predict 10,000 reservations in 24 hours after its unveiling.
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yobigd20 said: ?

You're basically just asking them to knock $40k off the Model S.
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Your point being? When Toyota Corollas have LED headlights, I don't think it's much of a stretch that it will become a commoditized item by 2018. It would seem to me that it would be in Tesla's interest to expand the reach and capability of the Supercharger network, especially now that it's willing to share its patents with other automakers. Yes, I would be fine with a slightly smaller, slightly lower-performance (but still high-performance by mass-market standards) version of the Model S. Musk himself has said he wants to bring prices down overall. I think once the Gigafactory goes online in full-swing, the prices for the packs will decrease radically. Although the Model S is still not a super-niche product in the vein of the Bugatti Veyron, by mass-market standards, it's still a relatively low-volume vehicle. When volumes start getting to 100,000+ units annually, prices per unit will drop significantly.

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MarkR said: ?

I'd hope for a smaller car, perhaps only four passengers, maybe just two doors plus a hatchback. Eliminating two doors may limit the cost.
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I respectfully disagree. Two-doors don't sell well at all. The only exceptions are the musclecars (i.e. Camaro, Mustang, etc.) and the Jeep Wrangler (most of which are now four-doors now anyway). I wouldn't rule out a coupe variant of the Gen-III, but a mass-market model needs to have four doors, period.
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yobigd20 said: ?

The thing is that Elon said Gen III would not have all the features that the Model S has. It's going to be a smaller and lesser featured version of the S. I wouldn't expect any of the above. If you want all the high tech cool stuff you'll need to get the S (assuming of course they have completed those features for the S by then).
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Yes Elon has said that, but I believe he meant that the BASE VERSION of the Gen III would not have some of the features of the base Model S. To make that happen it seems possible that by the time Gen III comes out the S will come standard with currently optional features like the Tech Package, Parking Sensors, Fog Lamps, etc., without a price increase.

I am confident that the Gen III will have a lot of options that will take its price up to the price of the base S 60. Of course a fully loaded S 85 will still be several tens of thousands of dollars above a fully loaded Gen III.

So I think it likely that it will be possible to get a high performance version of the Gen III as well as all the fancy self driving features that some people find so important (I do not). I do not feel it is necessary for Tesla to offer an AWD option for the Gen III.

Since the Gen III is meant to compete with the BMW 3 series it needs to offer comparable options to a loaded 3 series.

The Gen III will initially only be available as a 5 passenger hatchback sedan, as that is the most popular and versatile vehicle globally.
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igotzzoom said: ?

...Two-doors don't sell well at all...a mass-market model needs to have four doors, period.
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I will agree that it is difficult to consider a vehicle world-class if it does not sell well in the US, but I think it also is very important to understand that the (1) Asian market is significantly larger than the US's; the (2) European market is of similar size to the US's; and the ROW (mostly LatAm + Africa) is of significant size. NONE of those markets share the sentiment you enumerated.

Irrespective of the above, consider the following: what if the Gen III did incorporate just two doors....but they were the by-that-time the proven Model X falcon wing doors? It seems to me that, if TMC can bring those doors' construction costs down, each could have his desired door access, design and features.
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Interesting idea, Falcon doors on the Gen III could be long enough for one door to allow front and rear seat access? (Though ere would likely be structural issue with that approach, not enough body stiffness) But I doubt the cost could be reduced enough to make it happen.
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A different name is all I ask for. Something cool (like the recently announced HD "LiveWire"); no more of this Model this and Model that business. Probably not going to happen.

The rest - that I care about - is going to happen anyway:

- 5 doors including the lift gate (like the MS, only smaller)

- 5 seats (4's a "dealbreaker" for a lot of folks including me)

- Base range of atleast 180 miles (roughly the 90% range on the MS 60; I know it works very well for me even for today's SC hops)

- Supercharging (paid option)

- Killer acceleration
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AudubonB said: ?

I will agree that it is difficult to consider a vehicle world-class if it does not sell well in the US, but I think it also is very important to understand that the (1) Asian market is significantly larger than the US's; the (2) European market is of similar size to the US's; and the ROW (mostly LatAm + Africa) is of significant size. NONE of those markets share the sentiment you enumerated.

Irrespective of the above, consider the following: what if the Gen III did incorporate just two doors....but they were the by-that-time the proven Model X falcon wing doors? It seems to me that, if TMC can bring those doors' construction costs down, each could have his desired door access, design and features.
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I challenge you to find any contemporary market where two-doors outsell four-doors by any considerable margin. In fact, most emerging markets are asking for larger rear seat areas, with the Chinese market especially coming to mind. Even ultra-economy minded models (such as the Tata Nano) are four-door. I would not object to Falcon Wing doors on the Gen-III, but I don't think they would be cost-effective. Perhaps the crossover variant. There's no reason there couldn't be a whole family of Gen-III models, including a coupe, touring sedan (5-door) and crossover, but I can tell you from a volume standpoint, the sedan and crossovers will be the biggest sellers globally.
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igotzzoom said: ?

I challenge you to find any contemporary market where two-doors outsell four-doors by any considerable margin. In fact, most emerging markets are asking for larger rear seat areas, with the Chinese market especially coming to mind. Even ultra-economy minded models (such as the Tata Nano) are four-door. I would not object to Falcon Wing doors on the Gen-III, but I don't think they would be cost-effective. Perhaps the crossover variant. There's no reason there couldn't be a whole family of Gen-III models, including a coupe, touring sedan (5-door) and crossover, but I can tell you from a volume standpoint, the sedan and crossovers will be the biggest sellers globally.
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Agreed. Nissan just canceled their 2 door Altima coupe this year because sales were so bad compared to the sedan. The coupe only accounted for 3% of the total Altima sales. The sedan crushed the coupe in sales.
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Let's be realistic. Elon has said the 3 series will be the target comparable. With a 20% smaller body it is not going to have as much battery mass or volume as a Model S, and will seat 4 rather than 5. The curb weight is likely to be around 3600 lb. There isn't now a hatch back 3 series, though BMW steadfastly produces wagons, so we can wonder what will become of that aspect of the S. As for performance, we'd expect a taut suspension with add on performance features analogous to turbo and M3 series features. The other creature comforts and bionic driver amenities would be analogous as well. What's. It to like about that?
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I hope Gen III gets closer to this (thus effectively becoming a shrunk version of the Model S):

2015 BMW 4 Series Gran Coupe Quick Spin - Autoblog
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gg_got_a_tesla said: ?

I hope Gen III gets closer to this (thus effectively becoming a shrunk version of the Model S):

2015 BMW 4 Series Gran Coupe Quick Spin - Autoblog
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Agree 100%
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Raffy.Roma said: ?

Agree 100%
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Yes. Smaller, trimmer Model S would be just fine with me. I think it will still be a nominal five-seater, though probably not the truly comfortable three-across accommodations of the Model S, due to its necessarily narrower width. Supposedly even the second-gen Chevy Volt is going to have seatbelts for five. That was supposedly one of the most-requested features by current owners.
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My hope is that, when loaded up with options, the GenIII is basically a smaller Model S. If I stretched as far as my finances possibly could, I could afford a bare-bones Model S in three years after I save up enough. But I'd rather spend that same money on a fully loaded GenIII. So here's what I'm hoping I can get WITH OPTIONS:

Performance model that has a 4.0-second (or less) 0-60 time
250+ mile EPA-rated range w/Supercharger access
19" wheels (guessing standard will be 17")
Air suspension (I *love* this on Model S, but it obviously won't be standard, if it's even offered at all)
Panoramic roof (a regular sunroof would disappoint me)
Retractable door handles a la Model S (it could be part of a "Tech Package+," perhaps). It's just SO COOL that I want it!)
15" touchscreen dashboard (I believe all GenIII's will have the same size screen, and it's bound to be smaller than S's 17-incher since it's a smaller car)
Parking sensors
Auto-folding mirrors
Premium interior lighting package
4G LTE data transfer
Backup camera with on-screen guidelines (a la Infiniti and many other manufacturers)

And I'm hoping I can get all that for $70k-$75k. That's the dollar figure I'm trying to plan for. Time will tell if I'm nuts or not. Elon has already said he wants this car to be an M3 killer, so I'm optimistic.

Finally, it's worth remembering that Elon/Tesla has said that Model S should be getting a redesign around the same time as GenIII hits. So it's then that I expect a 400+ mile battery to become available on S along with a significant leap forward in interior options and tech gadgets in order to keep it firmly ahead of GenIII in the desirability department. And that will probably be the car that gets an AWD option, not the GenIII.
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Track tuning option:
- 20-30 minutes of full throttle/brake using <= 40 kWh of charge
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brianman said: ?

Track tuning option:
- 20-30 minutes of full throttle/brake using <= 40 kWh of charge
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I'm with you on this one!!! I hope they engineer it to handle track duty. No more power limiting mode. I hope they make a perf version that handles better than the S and accelerates as quickly or better. I'd be all over it if that's the case.
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ryanjm said: ?

My hope is that, when loaded up with options, the GenIII is basically a smaller Model S. If I stretched as far as my finances possibly could, I could afford a bare-bones Model S in three years after I save up enough. But I'd rather spend that same money on a fully loaded GenIII. So here's what I'm hoping I can get WITH OPTIONS:

Performance model that has a 4.0-second (or less) 0-60 time
250+ mile EPA-rated range w/Supercharger access
19" wheels (guessing standard will be 17")
Air suspension (I *love* this on Model S, but it obviously won't be standard, if it's even offered at all)
Panoramic roof (a regular sunroof would disappoint me)
Retractable door handles a la Model S (it could be part of a "Tech Package+," perhaps). It's just SO COOL that I want it!)
15" touchscreen dashboard (I believe all GenIII's will have the same size screen, and it's bound to be smaller than S's 17-incher since it's a smaller car)
Parking sensors
Auto-folding mirrors
Premium interior lighting package
4G LTE data transfer
Backup camera with on-screen guidelines (a la Infiniti and many other manufacturers)

And I'm hoping I can get all that for $70k-$75k. That's the dollar figure I'm trying to plan for. Time will tell if I'm nuts or not. Elon has already said he wants this car to be an M3 killer, so I'm optimistic.
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I think you're being realistic. We can't see the official numbers but I'm certain that a lot of what you're after will happen on the Gen III. If it was successful for the Model S and X then why not have it translate over to the Gen III?

Performance version? Definitely.
Larger pack available immediately? Of course. The smaller pack will be needed to hit the target $35K. A larger pack will be the most common upgrade.
Air suspension? Why not.
Door handles? Possibly. I think there will be an option with the tech package or it won't be an option at all.
Touch screen? Very close to a sure thing. Why go backwards?
And none of your other requests are outrageous either. They will be an add-on with cost but you expect that.
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I'd like to see a more interesting palette of available colors. Right now on the Model S they basically offer 3 shades of white, 4 shades of black, and red.

I feel like in order to get the cost down Tesla is going to have to delete some of the gee-whiz stuff and I think the power retracting door handles should be the first to go. I agree they are fun but seem like more cost than they are worth, both in terms of initial manufacturing and ongoing warranty support. We might see these as part of the Tech package but on the other hand designing two different door handle systems would be more engineering expense.

15" touchscreen seems reasonable since the Gen 3 will be narrower. I expect all future Tesla vehicles will have the large touchscreen center console as a signature design feature and the software/interface will probably be very similar across all Tesla models.

I'm hoping too that the general layout will be the same as Model S, with the battery pack under the floor, drive unit integral with rear axle and rear wheel drive. Possibly AWD optional but with electronic traction and stability control I don't really think AWD is that necessary. Common drive unit with Model S maybe, but might be too large and heavy depending on how large Gen 3 turns out to be. Battery pack certainly won't be the same as S/X because the chassis of Gen 3 will be too small in both length and width.
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ThosEM said: ?

Let's be realistic. Elon has said the 3 series will be the target comparable. With a 20% smaller body it is not going to have as much battery mass or volume as a Model S, and will seat 4 rather than 5.
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I have a Compact sized sedan and it can seat 5. Of course the Gen III will seat 5 in a bench style back seat. The Volt only seats 4 because of the huge battery pack intruding into the fifth seat position. Even a Sub-compact like the Yaris can seat 5. The Gen III will be a mid-sized sedan.
yaris interior - Google Search

The car will seat 5. I'm willing to bet on it.
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Grendal said: ?

I have a Compact sized sedan and it can seat 5. Of course the Gen III will seat 5 in a bench style back seat. The Volt only seats 4 because of the huge battery pack intruding into the fifth seat position. Even a Sub-compact like the Yaris can seat 5. The Gen III will be a mid-sized sedan.
yaris interior - Google Search

The car will seat 5. I'm willing to bet on it.
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I'm with you on this one. Having a 5 seater is actually a huge selling point because it differentiates from the other cars and it's very useful to be able to fit 3 adults in the rear. My IS350 is technically a 5-seater car, but in reality you can't really use the rear middle seat for anyone but a very small child and only for short trips at a time.
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Yes, 3 seats in the back with no hump in the middle - much like in the Model S - are indeed a no-brainer.

I was surprised to see even the LEAF (the only sedan-like BEV other than the MS that's a 5-seater) have a hump in the middle (purportedly for some battery components) that makes the seat in the middle practically useless.
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yobigd20 said: ?

These were words right out of Elon's mouth at one of his talks. They need to keep the costs dow
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Elon also said that it will be a compelling car and that he would rather sell more cars for less money than less cars for more money.
Elon has said its only battery costs that is stoping a low cost EV.
With the giga factory being able to produce batteries at a lower cost and battery improvements equalling less batteries for 200mile range yes gen3 will basically be a small model S. Isn't the 3 series just a smaller 5 series?
Some people will be upset with what they paid for their model S when the giga factories are done. But that's what comes with early adoption and buying technology.
However i do thank those tesla owners that could afford these cars and made the company survive so more people can one day own a tesla/EV.
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Frankly I expect that the Model 3 will have everything the current Tesla S has right now in some form or the other. The S will undoubtedly move on to have more features.
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My Wish:

Add Formula-E like acceleration sound to the Performance+ Package. It can be turn on and off from the screen. Hopefully it is generated from the motor itself instead of the speaker system of the car.
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tnagpal said: ?

Frankly I expect that the Model 3 will have everything the current Tesla S has right now in some form or the other. The S will undoubtedly move on to have more features.
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... except perhaps the girth, the length, the weight, ....
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I want it to look good, have a reasonably good performance option, and have a battery option that gives about 275 EPA rated miles (Supercharger enabled, of course). The rest is negotiable.
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Skotty said: ?

I want it to look good, have a reasonably good performance option, and have a battery option that gives about 275 EPA rated miles (Supercharger enabled, of course). The rest is negotiable.
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I agree. The baseline must be rock solid and TM can build from there.
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My wish, for us all, is to have it arrive in quantity a year sooner rather than another year delayed.
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I hope it can keep up with an M3 on the track (not drag strip *puke*)
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Take this a step further...

Do you think that the reservation list will be opened up to current Tesla Owners (for a limited time) prior to being opened up to the general public?...I mean it does feel like it would be "the right thing" for Tesla to do imo...

ratsbew said: ?

I predict 10,000 reservations in 24 hours after its unveiling.
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Jaff said: ?

Take this a step further...

Do you think that the reservation list will be opened up to current Tesla Owners (for a limited time) prior to being opened up to the general public?...I mean it does feel like it would be "the right thing" for Tesla to do imo...
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That would be nice but at the same time I can see not playing favorites on the mass market car. Maybe first dibs if there is a Signature series?
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The article below contains info on the Gen 3 (to be priced at Audi A4/BMW 3 series/Merc C-class level), 20% small that Model S, will not use all aluminium for chassis etc. Some errors in article as well so not sure how good info is.

Tesla promises realistic pricing for new BMW 3-series rival | Autocar
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dsm363 said: ?

That would be nice but at the same time I can see not playing favorites on the mass market car. Maybe first dibs if there is a Signature series?
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I think it would be appropriate to offer "Signature Series" models to current owners, but if the Gen-III is being positioned to be more of a mass-market model, I don't think it should be too exclusive. I would like a crack at getting one of the first 10,000 models, assuming the price isn't too exorbitant.
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I'm getting into the first 40,000 for sure and maybe hold two reservations, one for a Sig and one for a General Production. Will discard the sig if the pricing and options turn out to be not worth it.

First 40k or so because that's when I'm predicting that Tesla would hit 200,000 cars produced in all (Roadster, S, X and G3); buyers would then no longer be eligible for the $7,500 federal tax credit.
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gg_got_a_tesla said: ?

I'm getting into the first 40,000 for sure and maybe hold two reservations, one for a Sig and one for a General Production. Will discard the sig if the pricing and options turn out to be not worth it.

First 40k or so because that's when I'm predicting that Tesla would hit 200,000 cars produced in all (Roadster, S, X and G3); buyers would then no longer be eligible for the $7,500 federal tax credit.
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Honestly, my interest is not necessarily contingent on a tax credit or even carpool lane access. I'm already in a carpool, and will probably continue to drive with the carpool even if I do get one. In terms of the tax credit, sure, it would be icing on the cake, but assuming I could afford the car without the credit, I'd probably still buy one.
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My personal wish is for a Tesla Epsilon EC P135+ AWD Coupe with Falcon Wing Doors. But that will be a high end version of the GIII.

I think the entry level version of the car at $34,900 will be as capable as a BMW 335i, as well appointed as a Toyota Camry LE. Supercharging will be a $2000 option on that 60 kWh vehicle with Rear Wheel Drive.

The next step up would have an 85 kWh battery pack capacity and would also be Rear Wheel Drive for $42,900 and Supercharging included.

Beyond that would be an 85 kWh version with All Wheel Drive capability for $47,900 with Supercharging.

Finally, there would be a Performance version with All Wheel Drive for $54,900 also with Supercharging and a maximum spec battery pack, hopefully at 135 kWh capacity or better.

Please note that the entry level car would have a 0-60 of about 4.5 seconds, a top speed of 130 mph, and a cruising range of 250 miles. Also, its 60 kWh battery pack could be unlocked to become an 85 kWh battery pack for an additional fee.
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Red Sage said: ?

My personal wish is for a Tesla Epsilon EC P135+ AWD Coupe with Falcon Wing Doors. But that will be a high end version of the GIII.

I think the entry level version of the car at $34,900 will be as capable as a BMW 335i, as well appointed as a Toyota Camry LE. Supercharging will be a $2000 option on that 60 kWh vehicle with Rear Wheel Drive.

The next step up would have an 85 kWh battery pack capacity and would also be Rear Wheel Drive for $42,900 and Supercharging included.

Beyond that would be an 85 kWh version with All Wheel Drive capability for $47,900 with Supercharging.

Finally, there would be a Performance version with All Wheel Drive for $54,900 also with Supercharging and a maximum spec battery pack, hopefully at 135 kWh capacity or better.

Please note that the entry level car would have a 0-60 of about 4.5 seconds, a top speed of 130 mph, and a cruising range of 250 miles. Also, its 60 kWh battery pack could be unlocked to become an 85 kWh battery pack for an additional fee.
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I'll take the 85 with all wheel, and may have to add some options.
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2 Door Coupe - Compete with the BMW M4
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My two requirements are as follows. Without them, it's a no-go.
- Pass the *cello test. (explained below)
- 200+ miles of real world range. In my perspective, the MS85 meets this requirement, the MS60 does not. I would actually prefer 300+ miles, but I recognize that the chances of this are unlikely.

I'm not interested in air suspension, auto-extending door handles, or panoramic roof. I'd be OK with any acceleration at or better than 0-60 in 8 seconds. It's probably easier and cheaper to ramp that up in an EV than an ICE, but that is not something I want to spend extra money on if I don't have to. Note that if it is slower than 0-60 in 8 seconds then it is too slow. I would also prefer front-wheel drive, but won't complain if it's not.

As for the cello test, I am a professional cellist. In any car I purchase, I need to be able to easily fit my cello into the car, preferably in the back seat. This rules out any 2-door car, and it can't be any narrower than my current vehicle, a 2002 Saturn SL2 (my Saturn barely passes the test, but it does pass).
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I know this is unlikely, as we don't have it in the Model S, but I really hope to see a spare tire in any vehicle I drive. And not one of those useless donuts, either.
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my wishlist
- actually below $35k and $50k fully loaded. Tesla doesn't have a good history of predicting price for their future model. Model S was surpose to be the $50k car, end up being $75k-$120k
- personally I think $35k is still regarded as high end small car. The price is still too high for mass market, so Tesla should work towards making it even cheaper
- Most importantly, I hope Model 3 doesn't look like a smaller Model S. If you put them side by side, buyers of Model 3 will look at it as the cheaper/smaller Model S. Buyers will view it as the inferior product.
Model 3 will need its own unique look. Buyers who buy Model 3 need to feel like they bought it because they like the new look, not because they couldn't afford Model S
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4rcane said: ?

Model S was surpose to be the $50k car, end up being $75k-$120k
Click to expand...

Well, the did have a model (40kWh) that was sold for < $50K in NA at the introduction - after the the federal tax exempt. My guess is that they introduced the 40kWh model just to meet the promised price point. And as long as the base version at the base price is a usable car, there is nothing wrong to add a lot of options that may get the price up "over the roof". No price is promised for the "top of the line".

4rcane said: ?

- personally I think $35k is still regarded as high end small car. The price is still too high for mass market, ...
Click to expand...

You got a point here, but... What Tesla tries to do is to show everybody - and the auto-industry in particular - that an EV dos not have to be an "eco box". And it's positioned to compete directly with BMW 3-series. That dictates to a great part both the price-point and how it will be designed and equipped. There is a lot of others that is competing in the "eco box" segment, no need for Tesla to enter this marked at this point. And when you calculate the savings of driving an EV vs a fossilfuel car, it does in fact compete with cars with a lower price.

4rcane said: ?

- Most importantly, I hope Model 3 doesn't look like a smaller Model S. If you put them side by side, buyers of Model 3 will look at it as the cheaper/smaller Model S. Buyers will view it as the inferior product.
Model 3 will need its own unique look. Buyers who buy Model 3 need to feel like they bought it because they like the new look, not because they couldn't afford Model S
Click to expand...

First: Don't worry, they have promised that this wish will become true But personly I wold not had any problem with it being an small version of the MS. The MS is a big car, and it is not a problem to defend buying a smaller more practical car at a lower price point. BMW have no problem selling the 3-series but that looks like a smaller/cheaper version of the 5-series that looks like a smaller cheaper version of the 7-series.... When you buy a car you pick it based on what you need, what you want and what you can afford (and for some - what they want to show others )
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The key word is... 'affordable'. Note that the current average price of a new car is already over $31,000. So it is likely to be closer to $35,000 by 2017. When you consider that a Tesla Model ? at $34,900 would include Supercharging... Over the period of five to eight years, it would cost less to own and operate than a Toyota Camry LE that cost around $23,000. You'd get a better car, with a better driving experience, while spending tremendously less for fuel, or nothing at all if you have solar panels at home.

As for styling... I find it interesting how no one complains about how much the Jetta looks like the Passat... Or that the BMW 3-Series looks like the 5-Series and 7-Series... Or that the Volvo S60 looks like the S80... Or that the AUDI A4 looks like the A6, A7, A8...

The Tesla Model ? will not look like a 'mini-me' version of the Model S. It will obviously be 'part of the family', but definitely not a runt clone. it will be... beautiful. It will NOT look like a Ford Focus Electric or a Fiat 500e.
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Again, it is the Model 3. What not call the BMW 3 series the ? series then? Because BMW calls it the 3 series and Tesla calls it the Model 3. Sure, Tesla may end up calling it the Model ? on the back of the car but I bet when they print it on their website or anywhere else it will be the Model3.
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Let it go, Dave, let it go
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yobigd20 said: ?

Agreed. Nissan just canceled their 2 door Altima coupe this year because sales were so bad compared to the sedan. The coupe only accounted for 3% of the total Altima sales. The sedan crushed the coupe in sales.
Click to expand...

Yes, but that's Nissan. You see a lot of Honda Accord Coupes and BMW 3 and now 4 series coupes. The MS already has a small door opening - and that's a big car. I sure hope Tesla offers a 2-door coupe for the Model 3 and eventually the MS.
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gg_got_a_tesla said: ?

Let it go, Dave, let it go
Click to expand...

Dave has a point as it messes up the ability to search (which we should bear in mind when we're covering active sections on Model S and Model X and Model 3). Google doesn't recognize "Model ?" so it just searches for "Model" which means that no-one will be able to find specific search results if everyone keeps using ?.

Also, for those of us who often use iPad there's no way to type ? so making it impossible to search TMC on the subject. :frown:
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dsm363: If it helps the debate at all, I doubt anyone is searching for my posts anyway. ;-) Besides, if you'll note the title of this thread...? It is written the way you prefer, and Google will find it just fine.

NigelM: You can type the emblem on an iPad using Unicode, if you want.

James Anders: Agreed. We really need a coupe for Model ?. I'm afraid that sales of sedans, wagons, and crossovers will reign supreme though. Since this is meant to be a platform
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Red Sage said: ?

I doubt anyone is searching for my posts anyway. ;-)....

NigelM: You can type the emblem on an iPad using Unicode, if you want.
Click to expand...

a) however humble you personally might be, no-one can search if everyone uses the symbol.

b) there's still no way to enter a symbol in the search box of an iPad.

it's like peeing in the swimming pool, it might not mean much to you but eventually it's going to spoil it for other folks.
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Red sage: We've made a polite request but you seem to want to have it your way. Would it harm anyone but calling the Model 3 the way Tesla actually calls it and that's Model 3?
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"If you want all the high tech cool stuff you'll need to get the S"
I Disagree. Technology moves so quickly that the model 3 should actually have MORE technology in 2017 for less money than the "S" does now. Like anything else electronic. Prices fall and technology advances exponentially. Look at TVs. You can buy a 60" LED TV for $1800.00 where-as 5 years ago when they first came out the 55" was $3500. and they are BETTER.

I'm sure an improved touch screen will be used and be MUCH cheaper to make. Also I'm sure Elon knows the basics of all successful product launches.. Under Promise and Over deliver. I expect the 3 will have a greater than 200 mile range, more technology built into the screen and still come in around $35K. we shall see but I know Elon knows that the difference between $35K and $45K will change his sales volume as much as 30%. Which kills his vendor $ negotiations. I also know Elon wants to "SPANK" the big three for killing the EV up to now.. Time to teach them a lesson. Along with the oil companies.
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Phil TAW said: ?

Technology moves so quickly that the model 3 should actually have MORE technology in 2017 for less money than the "S" does now. Like anything else electronic. Prices fall and technology advances exponentially.
Click to expand...

Precisely. I think people seriously underestimate what the passage of time, combined with economies of scale, can do to the prices of solid state technology. Others mistakenly believe that there must be some sort of 'separation' of features and performance between Model ? and Model S, to protect sales of the higher end cars. Nope. People will buy the car they want, they car they need, the car they can afford.

Phil TAW said: ?

Also I'm sure Elon knows the basics of all successful product launches.. Under Promise and Over deliver. I expect the 3 will have a greater than 200 mile range, more technology built into the screen and still come in around $35K.
Click to expand...

I agree. The people who expect Tesla Motors to roll out a bare bones tin can without amenities for $35,000 will be absolutely wrong. Like the Model S, the Generation III cars will not be exactly 'luxurious' in the traditional automotive sense. It will be modern, stylish, comfortable, functional, and fully featured. I think it will be at least as well appointed as a Toyota Camry LE, and possibly as well as a Lexus ES. I think it will at the very least come with a 60 kWh battery pack delivering ~250 miles of EPA rated range. I hope that it would use a refined version of the Tesla Model S 60 drivetrain, with a 300 hp / 317 lbs-ft torque output.

Phil TAW said: ?

we shall see but I know Elon knows that the difference between $35K and $45K will change his sales volume as much as 30%. Which kills his vendor $ negotiations. I also know Elon wants to "SPANK" the big three for killing the EV up to now.. Time to teach them a lesson. Along with the oil companies.
Click to expand...

Exactly. The big surprise will come if Tesla Motors is able to reduce the cost of battery packs to the point that other automotive manufacturers accuse them of technology dumping. I doubt they'll ever release a wimpy car, without range and performance as the focus. I imagine that the people who expect to see a 40 kWh grocery getter, with just shy of 180 miles range for $35,000 will have heart attacks if Tesla instead releases the base car at 60, 85, or 100 kWh instead. This is going to be fun to watch.
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brianman said: ?

Track tuning option:
- 20-30 minutes of full throttle/brake using <= 40 kWh of charge
Click to expand...

Applying full throttle for 30 minutes only using 40kWh of charge means that the output is only ( 107hp ) 80kW.
That's not what you want.

If the car has a max output of 300kW, and you want to do hot laps ( I am going to guess that means an average throttle of somewhere between 67 and 80% without considering regen ), 30 minutes would use about 100 to 120 kWh of charge.

Having the cooling system to handle that is something else.
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dsm363 said: ?

Red sage: We've made a polite request but you seem to want to have it your way. Would it harm anyone but calling the Model 3 the way Tesla actually calls it and that's Model 3?
Click to expand...

Hey guys, don't mean to annoy but, it looks like three horizontal bars are still in play:

Twitter

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richkae said: ?

Applying full throttle for 30 minutes only using 40kWh of charge means that the output is only ( 107hp ) 80kW.
That's not what you want.

If the car has a max output of 300kW, and you want to do hot laps ( I am going to guess that means an average throttle of somewhere between 67 and 80% without considering regen ), 30 minutes would use about 100 to 120 kWh of charge.

Having the cooling system to handle that is something else.
Click to expand...

I think you misunderstood. I said "full throttle/braking". I'm not talking about keeping to the pedal to the floor going in a straight line or along an oval. I'm talking about like... with turning and braking and such.

The most I've used in a 20min session is ~77 rated miles. But yes, it would probably be around 50-60 kWh rather than 40 kWh.
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I want a reasonably priced FSM and parts. Technically, this would require those to be less expensive than parts from other manufacturers, but I'll settle for parts that are as expensive.

The lack of support for DIY'ers is the biggest reason I would sit on the fence about getting a 3. I still might get one, but I'd complain a lot about anything that broke out of warranty.
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I'd like to see an aux jack for the stereo -- looked at an S the other day, and was surprised it didn't have it! I have my entire (very large) music collection on my iPod, so that would be very nice. I'd like more in the way of cubbies, map holders in the doors, storage in the center console, and cup holders (especially rear ones). The Prius' overhead cubby is perfect for my prescription sunglasses -- very easy to get at them. I'd also appreciate Bluetooth audio for my phone. I also wonder if a 120 V outlet would be possible -- handy for boiling water while parked and for recharging laptops!
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physicsfita said: ?

I'd like to see an aux jack for the stereo -- looked at an S the other day, and was surprised it didn't have it! I have my entire (very large) music collection on my iPod, so that would be very nice. I'd like more in the way of cubbies, map holders in the doors, storage in the center console, and cup holders (especially rear ones). The Prius' overhead cubby is perfect for my prescription sunglasses -- very easy to get at them. I'd also appreciate Bluetooth audio for my phone. I also wonder if a 120 V outlet would be possible -- handy for boiling water while parked and for recharging laptops!
Click to expand...

I believe you can use your iPod in the Model S through the USB connector.
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gjunky said: ?

I believe you can use your iPod in the Model S through the USB connector.
Click to expand...

No, you cannot. Bluetooth only to play your iPod or iPhone through the car. The USB ports in the Model S can charge your iPod or iPhone.
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I stand corrected. Perhaps something like this might work then
http://www.amazon.com/KOKKIA-MULTI-STREAM-multi-stream-authentication-Capabilities/dp/B004I408OW/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1409717407&sr=8-2&keywords=bluetooth+ipod+adaptor
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gg_got_a_tesla said: ?

I'm getting into the first 40,000 for sure and maybe hold two reservations, one for a Sig and one for a General Production. Will discard the sig if the pricing and options turn out to be not worth it.

First 40k or so because that's when I'm predicting that Tesla would hit 200,000 cars produced in all (Roadster, S, X and G3); buyers would then no longer be eligible for the $7,500 federal tax credit.
Click to expand...

Current guidance is hitting 100K cars per year rate by the end of 2015 (by which time they'd have already shipped 100K cumulative) so by the end of 2016 they'd be hitting 200K total before Model 3 even starts to ship. So the fine print starts to matter. Does the law refer to US sales or redeemed credits or does it refer to total production. When it was written there probably wasn't much thought that a US car maker might be exporting much of it's production.
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U.S. sales. I believe this was done with the Prius in mind - since not all Prii go to the US.
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One of the things on my wish-list is: Gorgeous Elegant Styling.

I have no doubt they will build a fantastic car all the way around from the ground up. This has been proven with MS. However, this may sound trite and vain, but it's gotta look fantastic. Not just good or decent. No offense to the Insight, Prius, or Leaf owners, but it can't look anything like that. I realize it is up against the BMW 3 series /Audi A4 for competition (lets hope BMW M3 performance #'s), but it will need to have styling to match and surpass.

I think the biggest risk doing a 'mass-market' car is appealing to a wider audience. I am just hoping and praying that they don't do a lame conservative approach to appease the masses. I truly believe the styling on the M3 will be the one of the most critical factors to its overall success. I really believe all things being equal, this is what will set it apart from other EV/BEV/car's in same price range.

I have hope it will retain the pedigree and styling of the MS. I would be ok if it was close in styling (similar mini-me approach wouldn't bother me either).

I'm a huge, huge proponent, heck I'm even an investor. I'm hoping to retire my faithful f150, if that thing got 100mpg, it would be the perfect vehicle, almost.
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I have a few off the wall suggestions for Model 3.

If a feature already exists, please let me know and I'll remove it.

Sound System

Programmable Automatic Audio Volume Adjustment

The faster you go, the higher it reaches defined threshold (louder on the freeway) -- as you slow down the volume goes down -- more awareness while driving slowly (pedestrians, bicycles, and other typical slow paced driving one should be awaree of).

Auto Sensing of Emergency Vehicles and/or Road Conditions

Turns down stereo sound automatically based on external microphones or detection of emergency vehicles (with applicable vocal warnings) or reported accidents, etc.

Window System

Similar to the sound system -- weather is not raining, snowing, etc -- automatically rolls down or up windows at predefined speeds and at different levels for maximum wind to pleasurable external air experience.

Intranet Communication

Sensors for pot holes, rain conditions, ice, oil slicks, hitting dead animals, etc. When a Tesla car encounters such (based on a variety of sensors from shock, vibration including surface detection), it communicates to a Tesla network and transmits the information to other cars automatically. This can include congestion in traffic to maximum speed of routes. Possibly based on a tally, so if 3 cars find a pothole and 1 doesn't, the pothole exists -- or vice versa. The driver's can be warned of upcoming conditions continuously -- or if self driving it will re-route.

Semi-Complete Hands Free Operation

This should be a discount for auto insurance as it will heighten and assist in driver awareness.

Other than the steering wheel, break and acceleration, the car should have full speech recognition for nearly every feature and not require one to take one's eyes off road. Open the windows 30% HAL. Turn the radio station HAL. Set the temperature to blah blah, HAL. HAL, report heavy traffic. HAL report accident. HAL (example name) should be able to read text messages from friends and reply to text messages (voice recognition) - same with e-mails, surfing the web, etc.

Thanks for reading!
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Ludus said: ?

Current guidance is hitting 100K cars per year rate by the end of 2015 (by which time they'd have already shipped 100K cumulative) so by the end of 2016 they'd be hitting 200K total before Model 3 even starts to ship. So the fine print starts to matter. Does the law refer to US sales or redeemed credits or does it refer to total production. When it was written there probably wasn't much thought that a US car maker might be exporting much of it's production.
Click to expand...

The law referes to US sales, i.e. redeemed credits. There will be a mad-dash to get on the beginning of the wait list. Keep your credit card lines open
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GenIIIBuyer: I'm not so sure about that... When you check the 'Phaseout' section of the Federal Tax Credits for Electric Vehicles page at FuelEconomy-dot-gov... It seems that the cars don't even have to be sold to begin the credit begins to go away. They use the word 'produces' instead:

"The credit begins to phase out for vehicles at the beginning of the second calendar quarter after the manufacturer produces 200,000 eligible plug-in electric vehicles (i.e., plug-in hybrids and EVs) as counted from January 1, 2010. IRS will announce when a manufacturer exceeds this production figure and will announce the subsequent phase out schedule (Plug-In Electric Drive Motor Vehicle Credit Quarterly Sales)."

At that point, the credit drops to 50%... Then 25%... Then 0%... Over time, on a schedule.

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Red Sage said: ?

GenIIIBuyer: I'm not so sure about that... When you check the 'Phaseout' section of the Federal Tax Credits for Electric Vehicles page at FuelEconomy-dot-gov... It seems that the cars don't even have to be sold to begin the credit begins to go away. They use the word 'produces' instead:

"The credit begins to phase out for vehicles at the beginning of the second calendar quarter after the manufacturer produces 200,000 eligible plug-in electric vehicles (i.e., plug-in hybrids and EVs) as counted from January 1, 2010. IRS will announce when a manufacturer exceeds this production figure and will announce the subsequent phase out schedule (Plug-In Electric Drive Motor Vehicle Credit Quarterly Sales)."

At that point, the credit drops to 50%... Then 25%... Then 0%... Over time, on a schedule.

Click to expand...

Hmmm ... I wonder if Tesla will delay some US production cars as they approach the 200,000th eligible builds? For instance lower domestic production percentage vs international so that the 200,000 car is built on the first day of the following quarter in order to buy 3 more months of credits. Since volumes will pick up so substantially with model 3, it would be in Tesla's interest to push back the 200,000th US car as much as possible (without losing sales).
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Red Sage said: ?

GenIIIBuyer: I'm not so sure about that... When you check the 'Phaseout' section of the Federal Tax Credits for Electric Vehicles page at FuelEconomy-dot-gov... It seems that the cars don't even have to be sold to begin the credit begins to go away. They use the word 'produces' instead:

"The credit begins to phase out for vehicles at the beginning of the second calendar quarter after the manufacturer produces 200,000 eligible plug-in electric vehicles (i.e., plug-in hybrids and EVs) as counted from January 1, 2010. IRS will announce when a manufacturer exceeds this production figure and will announce the subsequent phase out schedule (Plug-In Electric Drive Motor Vehicle Credit Quarterly Sales)."
Click to expand...

And the word "eligible"? Is cars that is not targeted the US marked eligible for this credit?
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I got the impression that eligibility had to do with whether a vehicle qualified as a Zero Emissions Vehicle under the regulations and guidelines of the California Air Resources Board (CARB). But even if it is only the cars that are built to US specifications, meant for sale within US boarders, Tesla Motors is likely to be very close to the mark before the release of Model ?. My estimate is that through 2016, Tesla will have sold 140,000 eligible units. By mid-2017 Tesla is certain to gone over the mark at 200,000 -- whether the Model ? had been released yet or not.
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Red Sage said: ?

I got the impression that eligibility had to do with whether a vehicle qualified as a Zero Emissions Vehicle under the regulations and guidelines of the California Air Resources Board (CARB). But even if it is only the cars that are built to US specifications, meant for sale within US boarders, Tesla Motors is likely to be very close to the mark before the release of Model ?. My estimate is that through 2016, Tesla will have sold 140,000 eligible units. By mid-2017 Tesla is certain to gone over the mark at 200,000 -- whether the Model ? had been released yet or not.
Click to expand...

I'd think IRS relies on EPA, not CARB, designation.

On the numbers here is my estimate. if we assume mid 2017 start to Model 3, Tesla will be close to completing 200k. If it is closer to end of 2017 - most likely the 200k limit would have been reached. Nissan, BTW, has the same problem.

Model S+X : 175k
2013 18k
2014 18k (7k so far)
2015 40k
2016 60k
2017 40k (in 6 months)

Leaf : 195k
2011 9.6
2012 9.8
2013 22.6k
2014 30k (15.7k so far)
2015 40k
2016 50k
2017 30k (in 6 months)
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I've decided there is one more thing that I would really really want for a Model 3. Most things I can live without, but one thing in my Volt irritates me to no end (and same thing in other compact cars I've been in, though there hasn't been that many), and I think there should be a way to fix it with a good design. In a smaller car like a Volt (and likely like the Model 3), front to rear space is limited. I would like them to focus on providing additional available space between the front and rear seats. Find a way to make those rear seats go further back into the cargo space, or make a more cab forward design. But for the love of God, find a way to make both me and my kid in the car seat behind me both fit comfortably.
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In a purpose built compact EV it should be possible to optimize rear seat legroom since there is no engine in the front and no gas tank/exhaust system in the rear. However some frunk and trunk space would be lost.
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I trust Tesla to design and make a beautiful, fast, high-technology car in the Model 3.

What I'd have on my wish list is, of course, a Performance model; and sedan, coupe, eventually even convertible variants. I always loved BMW 3-series convertibles... if Tesla can give me an M3-convertible killer, I'll be first in line.
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My wish list for Model 3 is simple. Please give it conventional doors.
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teslamotorclub

Thứ Hai, 30 tháng 1, 2017

Model 3 Wish List part 1

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