teslamotorclub: Help! I am getting cold feet part 1

I could really use some help here. I was getting ready to buy a Model S, and had another test drive at my house, to see how the care did getting up my steep driveway. I know that nothing is perfect, but I have been collecting a bunch of "uh ohs" that are starting to add up:

1. The car was pretty good in the snowy driveway, but going slow, it definitely fish-tailed, which my 4WD SUV didn't at the same speed. We can get a lot more ice, and I am worried about having to leave my car in the street if things are really bad someday.

2. I learned that I might have to pay for the 3G internet access in the near future if I want to use the GPS and location service for Superchargers, etc. - this will likely add from $360 to $600 per year for operating the car, certainly eating into the savings on gas.

3. No lighted vanity lights? I know this is trivial, but it made me realize that there are a bunch of pretty typical luxury features that you can't get - heated steering wheel, blind spot assist, etc.

I know, this comes down to a personal choice, but I would welcome any input on this, and the "cold feet" syndrome.
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pbleic said: ?

I could really use some help here. I was getting ready to buy a Model S, and had another test drive at my house, to see how the care did getting up my steep driveway. I know that nothing is perfect, but I have been collecting a bunch of "uh ohs" that are starting to add up:

1. The car was pretty good in the snowy driveway, but going slow, it definitely fish-tailed, which my 4WD SUV didn't at the same speed. We can get a lot more ice, and I am worried about having to leave my car in the street if things are really bad someday.

2. I learned that I might have to pay for the 3G internet access in the near future if I want to use the GPS and location service for Superchargers, etc. - this will likely add from $360 to $600 per year for operating the car, certainly eating into the savings on gas.

3. No lighted vanity lights? I know this is trivial, but it made me realize that there are a bunch of pretty typical luxury features that you can't get - heated steering wheel, blind spot assist, etc.

I know, this comes down to a personal choice, but I would welcome any input on this, and the "cold feet" syndrome.
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I agree! All your points are valid and based on them I would agree that this is NOT the car for you. This car is for those who are excited by the prospect of something new and technologically advanced. It is for those who want to be in at the beginning of a new concept--a new revolution in transportation. It is for someone who loves the thrill of punching GO and only looking back to see the frustration on the other driver's face. It is for those who are concerned about the air we breathe and the air our children will breathe. It's for those who are tired of living under the threat of oil embargoes, or worse. You are absolutely right that it does not favorably compare with a 4WD SUV when driving in inclement weather. Did you expect that it would??? But if it is fishtailing it might be because traction/stability control is off. It is a car for those who know they can tether to their phone or use their phone for GPS. It is not for you if you are gauging your preferences based on heated steering wheels and vanity mirror lights. But then who knows what the next generation of OTA software will have in store for us? And it will be an always free update! Nope! This car is definitely NOT for you. Please step aside and let someone else have this car. Someone for whom it is better designed.
Oh, and by the way, cold feet can be warmed with an adjustment to climate controls. :wink:
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1. This is a RWD performance car. Not a 4WD SUV. Don't expect them to act the same way. There are many Model S drivers in Norway/Canada that are happy with how the car performs. There's also expected to be an AWD Model S which will probably come out within the next year or two which will likely be better than all other AWD drivetrains on the market.

2. Yes, you may have to pay for the internet access...while so far for everyone it has been free, most expect to have to pay for it sometime in the future.

3. This is an entirely different driving experience. Correct, there are no vanity lights. Correct, the steering wheel is not heated.

But you know what? In the dead of winter, you can also look at all those people who stand out in the cold at a gas station, waiting for their car to fill up, while you drive past them. You can also look at all those people warming their car up in the driveway, trying to defrost the windows, while you just hop into a warm cabin and go.

What's that you say? Other cars have remote start? You can start them remotely to begin warming up the car? Sure.

But try using remote start while those other cars are in the garage.

Everyone needs to make their own decision, but personally, if you put heated steering wheel (nice, but not important) or blind spot assist (I'd never use it...please look with your eyes first anyway) against NOT stopping at a gas station every week, I'd pick not stopping at a gas station every time. Plus there's instant torque, tons of cargo space, no vibration, touchscreen, etc....

Of course, this is just based on the things I value. Lighted vanity mirrors may be very important to you, in which case, this car's not for you.
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Chipper and Todd: Excellent responses. OP: The Model S is not a perfect car for all circumstances. But it does perform very well in icing conditions (I live in Atlanta, and proved that last week). I bought driving gloves for when I forget to pre-heat the car. I rarely use them since the car is in the garage overnight and pre-heating almost makes them unnecessary. Lastly, I have a shared AT&T plan which I believe will cost me about $15 to $20 to add the car. Since I don't reach my data limit, I'm not worried that the cost will be higher than that. If you want to stream music, you might consider XM instead of internet.
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@pbleic, you can feel the zeal of my fellow Tesla brothers here .

1) I would definitely recommend getting a second set of winter/snow tires/wheels for the Model S. I doubt you will have a problem with traction on your driveway thereafter. I know that's not what you want to hear in terms of added costs, but I looked at it as a must in terms of winter safety. Also, I've had winter tires for my past sports sedans so it's a matter of what you're used to, I guess.

2) I also bristle at the impending connectivity plans, but that will be the standard for most cars (at least an option) pretty much now and in the future ie you'll have to pay some monthly fee to get connected to the Internet, if you want that functionality. I'm happy to have gotten almost a year "free" so far from Tesla.

3) I agree that the Model S surprisingly does not have a few features that you'd expect in most cars at any price range. For me, it was the absence of fog lights, no parking sensors, no center console, no rear-facing seat vents, and as the kids grow up, no rear center armrest/cupholders. These things usually have nothing to do with your driving experience or pleasure, which for me is the priority. Then I also realized that the front driver/passenger LED reading light is 5 inches away from the vanity mirror and lights up enough of my face to see in the mirror. Or, I park about 1-2 feet further away from the parking curb in front than I have to if I had parking sensors, so who cares? With this car, you begin to see what really matters in driving daily and the other concerns just melt away.

It is a difficult exercise to compare apples-to-apples and count up every dollar you spend more on this car vs some other car -- you may find that you are spending $20,000 more on Model S (and counting). But don't forget you are doing something on a completely different scale than going out to a dealer and buying a Mercedes. You will continue to enjoy, and appreciate, what you've purchased, just like these posters here, and how it organically improves as the months go by. Good luck and let us know how it goes!
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@pbleic, I think others have addressed your specific concerns well enough. I'll simply add that test-driving the car and feeling that bit of euphoria is one thing, but, living with this car is a whole different and eye-opening experience!

I look forward to getting into this car everyday as it's such a joy to drive without all the annoyances - vibration and noise to varying degrees, gear changes (even automatic), that burdensome need to go somewhere to get fuel, the regular oil changes and myriad other maintenance tasks and so on - that come with a gas car. Just the other day, when I had to drive a BMW 528i for a day, I realized how antiquated these other cars felt compared to the car that I'm proud to call my own!
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+1, doct! Excellent reply.

For a moment, think of what you'd lose if you decide to go for the vanity mirrors and the other niceties you expected in this car ... for me, I'd be missing out on the sheer joy of driving a car daily that is more fun than any car I've ever owned. (And I have a Roadster - these cars were not sold on luxury items.) I can't wait to get my Model X and be fully electric. For me, it's about performance. And all the rest of the benefits of electric have grown on me ... no dirty exhaust, no stopping at gas stations, no checking oil, always full battery in the morning, unbelievable acceleration.

In short, there have been no compromises for me. And only you can decide what matters to you.
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I am surprised at some of the defensiveness that my post has brought out. I don't mean to challenge your decision; just looking for help with mine. In fact, I am a pretty tech saavy person who is an early adopter for many things. For those familiar with the Crossing the Chasm books (which is where "early adopter" comes from), this is a classic crossing the chasm issue. For a purchase of this amount, I am in the early majority. Early adopters are typically happy with the promise of what can be, can live with bugs and omissions, and buy on a vision. The early majority is where the bell curve shoots way up. There is a chasm that destroys many companies because they are unable to cross from early adopter to early majority. The early majority buyer is looking for demonstrated value, and is less interested in vision. They want to know, from those with experience, that what they are doing will work for them. If Tesla is going to be successful in the long run, it will need to cross the chasm between early adopter and early majority. That means, answering the kinds of questions I am asking. I appreciate the content of all the answers, but ask that you not be too harsh with me for asking these questions. If you want Tesla to be there for your next car, and the one after that, it will be essential that they cross this chasm. If not, they will certainly run out of early adopter buyers.
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pbleic said: ?

I am surprised at some of the defensiveness that my post has brought out. I don't mean to challenge your decision; just looking for help with mine. In fact, I am a pretty tech saavy person who is an early adopter for many things. For those familiar with the Crossing the Chasm books (which is where "early adopter" comes from), this is a classic crossing the chasm issue. For a purchase of this amount, I am in the early majority. Early adopters are typically happy with the promise of what can be, can live with bugs and omissions, and buy on a vision. The early majority is where the bell curve shoots way up. There is a chasm that destroys many companies because they are unable to cross from early adopter to early majority. The early majority buyer is looking for demonstrated value, and is less interested in vision. They want to know, from those with experience, that what they are doing will work for them. If Tesla is going to be successful in the long run, it will need to cross the chasm between early adopter and early majority. That means, answering the kinds of questions I am asking. I appreciate the content of all the answers, but ask that you not be too harsh with me for asking these questions. If you want Tesla to be there for your next car, and the one after that, it will be essential that they cross this chasm. If not, they will certainly run out of early adopter buyers.
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How about THE SAFEST CAR on the road today (NHTSA). Safety has always been a greater concern for me and no other make of cars addresses it better than TESLA.
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pbleic said: ?

I could really use some help here. I was getting ready to buy a Model S, and had another test drive at my house, to see how the care did getting up my steep driveway. I know that nothing is perfect, but I have been collecting a bunch of "uh ohs" that are starting to add up:

1. The car was pretty good in the snowy driveway, but going slow, it definitely fish-tailed, which my 4WD SUV didn't at the same speed. We can get a lot more ice, and I am worried about having to leave my car in the street if things are really bad someday.
Click to expand...

What tires were on your test drive vehicle?

2. I learned that I might have to pay for the 3G internet access in the near future if I want to use the GPS and location service for Superchargers, etc. - this will likely add from $360 to $600 per year for operating the car, certainly eating into the savings on gas.
Click to expand...

If Tesla's upcoming plans are prohibitively expensive, I would just tether to my smartphone for which I already pay for as part of my Mobile Share plan. Or add it as a $10 a month option to the plan assuming that would be possible like any other 3G device.

3. No lighted vanity lights? I know this is trivial, but it made me realize that there are a bunch of pretty typical luxury features that you can't get - heated steering wheel, blind spot assist, etc.
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There is a pretty good light right next to it which is probably intended to provide the same function.

Yes, there are other features missing. You should let yours sales rep know your concerns about these missing features, especially the ones that your really care about. With that said, Tesla has been pretty good about letting retrofits at a price. But as with most things, there is a trade off of newer things coming versus not having it at all.

I am sure that the Tesla grin will eventually overtake you.
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@pbleic, very well put/read. I know some of the stuff above read as defensive (it's really "zeal" as I wrote) and I will disagree with almost anyone who says "this is not the car for you," unless you are talking about over-reaching financially -- this IS a car for all of us! As an example, my wife is not just early majority, she's LATE majority and begrudgingly so. That's been one of the most enjoyable things about owning the Model S -- seeing it, not me, transform her thinking about what technology can do for the driving/daily living experience; and then seeing that change affect other things in our life, like going to solar, how we teach our kids/grandparents, etc. I know I'm getting a little idealistic, but if Tesla could change my wife's opinion/outlook as one of the LATE majority, it can change anyone's!
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ABVA said: ?

How about THE SAFEST CAR on the road today (NHTSA). Safety has always been a greater concern for me and no other make of cars addresses it better than TESLA.
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THAT is how you cross the chasm.
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pbleic-- Some of those responses were unnecessarily harsh to read (without the advantage of voice inflection to soften them), agreed.

I've had similar thoughts to yours but they were all quelled easily enough when I looked at what was most important.
I'm not particularly swayed by the "green" arguments. I'm not particularly compelled by the technology-- in fact, I've still never drilled down through the menus or looked at the big center screen more than in passing, and I've been in a Model S quite a bit!

What moves me is the long-term fundamentals of the design. The incredibly scaled down routine maintenance. Run the numbers and it's like getting a Porsche Panamera "on the cheap" because there's no scary repair bill looming in the future and the performance/storage is actually much better! Worst case scenario-- 10 years from now you replace the battery. While I don't know what gas will cost in 10 years, I'm pretty confident that the battery will become cheaper over time-- and sadly, they're be a ongoing supply of "crashed cars" if you just want a refurbished one. In the meantime you get a car that does what you want and doesn't do what you don't want (boring visits to car stealerships, gas stations, auto parts stores).

As for the AWD-- which I'm also holding out for-- get in line for a Model X. Small refundable deposit, hedge your bets. Once that line gets rolling it'll be a HUGE wait list and years before they're available used.

I don't get the vanity mirror thing. Never use mine... there's already a mirror on the windshield that works fine if I need it.

Connectivity plans-- I share your concern, but what are you going to do? It is what it is. Plan accordingly, plan for huge expenses and how to work around them and then hope to be surprised. No one knows the right answer yet.

Bottom line, if you need the car and you want the car, get the car. You looked, you liked, now you leap. This is one of the few times when you can buy something with a pretty strong and reasonable expectation that you can resell it for minimal loss (if any) if you change your mind. How often does that opportunity turn up when it comes to cars??
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In the words of a title of a book, don't sweat the small stuff. I'm pretty confident if you buy the car those limitations/shortcomings will dissipate. The challenge of the drive way may require a little more planning, but likely not to be insurmountable. I haven't met or heard an owner that has said they wish they didn't buy the car, not to say there aren't people out there. Do it Pbliec and then let us know how things worked out. You'll be so happy you made the decision. 9 months later and I still pinch myself because the car is truly remarkable!
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You won't find many arguments not to buy a Tesla from these forums. I will add a recent exchange with my wife. I told her that, with the Supercharger network in place, we could drive to from Virginia to Chicago now to visit her family. She replied " yeah but we're still sitting in the car for all that time". I replied, "no we're not, we're in the Tesla".

$2000 for plane tickets for the family until now was the easy choice versus sitting in a rattletrap ICE for hours. I'm kind of excited to try out the drive now.
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Only you can decide if the trade off of no heated steering wheel, lighted vanity mirrors, etc. is worth having a car with no gasoline engine and no emissions, and all the maintenance that entails. If you really don't want to pay for connectivity, you will still be able to find the superchargers on your smartphone, or do it the old fashioned way and print out a map ahead of time. For the routes you travel, once you know where it is you won't need the car to tell you anymore.
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@pbleic:

I spent 2-1/2 years with my Roadster and the first winter with my S running on the factory tires. What it boiled down to was that when the snow started to fly I wouldn't take them out of the garage because of concerns over handling. This snow season I bought a set of true winter tires and have been more than happy with how the S performs in winter driving conditions. I've also come to appreciate how, when temperatures drop below 0� F., I can drive the Model S without worrying about cracked hoses, weak starter batteries and the hundred other things that can go wrong with an ICE in Arctic temperatures.

As as for everything else folks have written: it's all true. The Model S changes your driving life for the better in a hundred little ways that add up to a profound sense of ease and security on the road. Nobody has yet mentioned one-pedal driving, but trust me: it is revelatory. It's lowered my blood pressure in stop-and-go traffic; between the eerily quiet cabin and not having to reach for the brake pedal a dozen times a minute, rush hour is not the grinding horror it used to be. It's also become a kind of game that keeps me alert and situationally aware in normal city driving: the 'how far can I go without having to use the brakes' game not only extends your range but also forces you to look farther ahead and stop riding the next car's rear bumper.

Many people on the forums have commented on how relaxing road trips become in the S: the lack of vibration and stopping at Superchargers every 150 miles or so for 20-30 minutes are good for your stress levels and hold fatigue at bay, not to mention that everyone in the car knows how far it is to the next stop so negotiations between those with two-hour bladders and those with six-hour bladders are avoided.

Look around these forums and see if you can find anyone who's bought a Model S only to sell it and return to driving a luxury ICE instead. I'm sure it has happened, but my sense is that it must be vanishingly rare.
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I'm not yet a purchaser, but appreciate this thread and understand the cold feet issue. For me, if I do make the purchase, it will be the single-largest automobile purchase I've made by a magnitude of 2.

Here's my next case in point for making the purchase later this winter: I have to take my 11 year old BMW in for another oil change, which will be another $100 and another 1.5 hours out of my life. 2014 is early, but I've already plunked down $650 in repairs to the car this year before the oil change. Part of me looks forward to the reliability of the new car, and part of me looks forward to the fact that the service frequency will drop dramatically. My time working, with kids, with family, and doing the things I want to do- especially on the weekends- is really important to me and worth something monetarily. The convenience of Ranger service coming to me seems really appealing in the event the car needs service.

Hope this helps you add a few more into the "plus" column for buying...
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pbleic said: ?

I am surprised at some of the defensiveness that my post has brought out. I don't mean to challenge your decision; just looking for help with mine. ... If you want Tesla to be there for your next car, and the one after that, it will be essential that they cross this chasm. If not, they will certainly run out of early adopter buyers.
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Some people can be a bit defensive about their cars. It is part of the passion these people have, and have been trying to fight off the naysayers that come up with any possible excuse they can as to why this is a bad car (as in, these naysayers are never going to like the car no matter what, why? who knows...). So if some of that came through in their posts let me apologize for them.

It is something I noticed about the car, and something that I have been trying to defend and overcome and that is that even for many "options" Tesla offers, in many cases these are standard in other luxury cars... like leather seats... Aren't those standard in both BMW 5 and Mercedes S? What I am hoping and expecting to happen is that as they decrease the cost of the battery, they will be able to lower the cost of the car itself and end up sticking those features in as standard. Basically the car will continue to cost 70k/80k/90k (60, 85, P85) but they will add in more things standard to the base package.

As far as the "missing" features, I would anticipate they will add them in the future. They are hiring positions right now (saw the job postings) for autonomous/assisted driving type research and development, so I would expect a lot of these over the next few years. The other minor things? I think they have long been on the request list to be added to the car, and I expect they will do it when they get around to it. I know that sounds sorta bad, but there is a cost associated with adding these in, and they need an ROI on puting forth that effort. Right now, there is still more demand than can be met by production. When they get the factory running at max capacity, they can work on adding in these other creature comforts.

Am I saying that you should get the car now if it isn't what you want? Not at all. Get it when it meets your needs. But are these things you actually need? Or better yet, does the things that Tesla offers that you can't get from anyone else outweigh that missed feature? For me, that it ultimately why I am getting the car now. For the minor things they are missing, they offer plenty that noone else does, aside from the obvious BEV with amazing range, performance, etc (which is a pretty strong pull in and of itself, don't get me wrong). For a RWD vehicle it performs better or on the same level as most AWD cars. Your SUV is in a different class, because, well, it is an SUV. If that is what is REALLY holding you back, then by all means wait for the Model X and see how it goes. But if you go look up Bjorn's videos of him driving the S in the snows of Norway, he had a situation where he went up a steep driveway, and the car handled it just fine, but then he is using snow tires.

Hope this helps. I also hope you end up buying the car (or maybe the model X here in a year)
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I get cold feet when it is cold out and the heat is set to floor. Tesla says the heat is working as designed but this is my #1 issue with the car. and I don't think there is a fix for it?

The 'missing' luxury features are actually a pleasant addition to the car. I don't like all the junk they put in cars these days, just drive and pay attention. Heated steering wheel, I guess it could be nice 1 or 2 times a year for me.
lighted vanity mirrors...haha, the mirrors are so bad it doesn't really matter if you can see or not...grab handles are missing though, and this is a fail (I'm working on lacewood handles now)

love my car and will never voluntarily drive an ICE again (unless it is something like a racecar on a track maybe)
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pbleic said: ?

3. No lighted vanity lights? I know this is trivial, but it made me realize that there are a bunch of pretty typical luxury features that you can't get - heated steering wheel, blind spot assist, etc.
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As others suggest, some of this is a matter of cost control, others a matter of time. With small volume, small features cost.

The steering wheel was bought in from MB. Maybe at some point they'll buy a heated wheel.

Tesla envisages an autopilot system. They're thinking about the eventual target so, to lower costs, I'd expect they'll work out what hardware they need for autopilot and then gradually develop the software that implements all the driver assist features. Once they've done enough development to be sure of the hardware, they can begin to introduce it. Elon Musk has said he'll expect to be able to say more about autopilot in summer (so think fall or next winter ).
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Driving is either a means to an end (a destination or whatever) or a visceral experience that makes it an end in itself. If the former, then all the little things that increase convenience or cause annoyances become significant. I would guess that all the "defensive" posts and arguments are from those to whom the driving experience, in itself, is paramount. In which case, all the other things fade into relative insignificance. I do not consider myself a car nut, previous BMWs and Audis notwithstanding, but with this car, I increasingly find the drive almost as significant as the destination (and sometimes more enjoyable than the destination). And there are a couple of tech items that came with the car that I still haven't used (and haven't missed).
To paraphrase an old Nancy Sinatra song: this car was made for driving, and driving is what it'll do. One day you'll come to realize no other car will do.
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pbleic said: ?

2. I learned that I might have to pay for the 3G internet access in the near future if I want to use the GPS and location service for Superchargers, etc. - this will likely add from $360 to $600 per year for operating the car, certainly eating into the savings on gas.
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The GPS route still works without data - you just have to manually add the address and you will see blank tiles instead of Google Maps on the 17" screen, but the route is there.
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Very well said. I also think some responses here are too harsh. I had a reservation in in Dec 2012, but cancelled because it was too early for me. But then I made another reservation in Dec 2013, and am super excited about delivery in about a month or less.
Some of the items raised are valid concerns, and it would be a shame for Tesla to not be able to bridge into the mainstream. I think all here do want to see Tesla do well.

pbleic said: ?

I am surprised at some of the defensiveness that my post has brought out. I don't mean to challenge your decision; just looking for help with mine. In fact, I am a pretty tech saavy person who is an early adopter for many things. For those familiar with the Crossing the Chasm books (which is where "early adopter" comes from), this is a classic crossing the chasm issue. For a purchase of this amount, I am in the early majority. Early adopters are typically happy with the promise of what can be, can live with bugs and omissions, and buy on a vision. The early majority is where the bell curve shoots way up. There is a chasm that destroys many companies because they are unable to cross from early adopter to early majority. The early majority buyer is looking for demonstrated value, and is less interested in vision. They want to know, from those with experience, that what they are doing will work for them. If Tesla is going to be successful in the long run, it will need to cross the chasm between early adopter and early majority. That means, answering the kinds of questions I am asking. I appreciate the content of all the answers, but ask that you not be too harsh with me for asking these questions. If you want Tesla to be there for your next car, and the one after that, it will be essential that they cross this chasm. If not, they will certainly run out of early adopter buyers.
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pbleic said: ?

1. The car was pretty good in the snowy driveway, but going slow, it definitely fish-tailed, which my 4WD SUV didn't at the same speed. We can get a lot more ice, and I am worried about having to leave my car in the street if things are really bad someday.
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The answer to this is to get a set of real winter tires (and wheels) like Nokian Hakkapeliitta R2 or Michelin IceX I3.

pbleic said: ?

2. I learned that I might have to pay for the 3G internet access in the near future if I want to use the GPS and location service for Superchargers, etc. - this will likely add from $360 to $600 per year for operating the car, certainly eating into the savings on gas.
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You can use your existing smartphone's hot spot and connect to WiFi in the car.

pbleic said: ?

3. No lighted vanity lights? I know this is trivial, but it made me realize that there are a bunch of pretty typical luxury features that you can't get - heated steering wheel, blind spot assist, etc.
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Tesla promised these at some future date (with a retrofit). I don't think they are high on the priority list.

pbleic said: ?

I know, this comes down to a personal choice, but I would welcome any input on this, and the "cold feet" syndrome.
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I had cold feet to as the Model S was 3x more than the previous most expensive car. Now at 17,000+ miles, I'm not even close to losing the Tesla grin.

On the plus side:

1. Every day starts with a full tank, and unless you're on a trip, you never need to charge away from home. No Tesla owner misses going to the filling station.

2. Preheating/cooling from shore power means the car is always comfortable without hurting the range.

3. Even Denise can't fill up all the space when we go on vacation.

4. The almost one pedal driving and general responsiveness makes the car as close to an extension of your body as you can get without neural implants. Once you drive one for a month, going back to any other car is a really bad experience. Just a test drive doesn't do it.
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pbleic said: ?

I am surprised at some of the defensiveness that my post has brought out. I don't mean to challenge your decision; just looking for help with mine. In fact, I am a pretty tech saavy person who is an early adopter for many things. For those familiar with the Crossing the Chasm books (which is where "early adopter" comes from), this is a classic crossing the chasm issue. For a purchase of this amount, I am in the early majority. Early adopters are typically happy with the promise of what can be, can live with bugs and omissions, and buy on a vision. The early majority is where the bell curve shoots way up. There is a chasm that destroys many companies because they are unable to cross from early adopter to early majority. The early majority buyer is looking for demonstrated value, and is less interested in vision. They want to know, from those with experience, that what they are doing will work for them. If Tesla is going to be successful in the long run, it will need to cross the chasm between early adopter and early majority. That means, answering the kinds of questions I am asking. I appreciate the content of all the answers, but ask that you not be too harsh with me for asking these questions. If you want Tesla to be there for your next car, and the one after that, it will be essential that they cross this chasm. If not, they will certainly run out of early adopter buyers.
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There is no perfect car and the interior could certainly use some upgrades to match its price class but there is nothing like driving it. Most of your issues with the car can or will be remedied. I think you'd like it. Proper tires make a big difference.
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You don't absolutely have to pay for a 3G plan. Set up your phone as a WiFi hotspot and use your phone's plan.
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Just wanted to say that I didn't intend for my post to come off as harsh or defensive...didn't mean it that way at all. My point was that in the end, it's about what you truly value that should drive your decision. But I was also trying to make a point that the combination of an electric driving lifestyle and the total package of the S is what makes it so attractive. It's not a perfect car (all cars have tradeoffs), but I can't think of any car in the world with a better total package of style, efficiency, performance, technology, and practicality.

Almost everyone here has driven both ICE and electric. I'm willing to bet that 95% say that driving electric is more than just a little better.
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Doug_G said: ?

You don't absolutely have to pay for a 3G plan. Set up your phone as a WiFi hotspot and use your phone's plan.
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My carrier, verizon, charges $30/mos to tether, so it amounts to the same thing.
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pbleic said: ?

My carrier, verizon, charges $30/mos to tether, so it amounts to the same thing.
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Note that this isn't all of Verizon. Thanks to the FCC, tethering for LTE customers on Share Everything plans is free!
What Verizon's FCC tethering settlement means to you (FAQ) | Mobile - CNET News
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Everything has been covered very well by all these post, just do not forget what this vehicle is all about. We are talking about the future, and I realize not everyone cares about the future. This car is not everything for everyone, what it is is the most amazing new vehicle that we have ever seen in the history of automobile manufacturing. Does it have everything that some luxury vehicles have, no, but if you buy this car for vanity lights and heated steering wheel you have miss the point of what Tesla stands for. I have been an ICE career person, grew up working on cars, spend my whole career in the automotive business, driven most every vehicle ever made, owned some very nice cars. But never anything like the Tesla!!!! And I would say this even if it was not an all electric vehicle. If you take some time and think about what it took to design and build this car, keeping in mind all the technology it has and all the performance it really is very special that we can own something like this. Then think about the supercharging infrastructure, we know that other manufactures will come out with an all electric car that can go 200 to 300 miles on a charge, but can they drive anywhere in the country. The forward thinking individuals that work at Telsa have thought ahead. No other manufactures have this charging infrastructure, how will they go across county. Normal comparisons do not make sense when talking about the Model S!!!
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pbleic said: ?

I could really use some help here. ...

but I would welcome any input on this, and the "cold feet" syndrome.
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pbleic said: ?

2. I learned that I might have to pay for the 3G internet access in the near future if I want to use the GPS and location service for Superchargers, etc. - this will likely add from $360 to $600 per year for operating the car, certainly eating into the savings on gas.
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This is the tell-tale sign. Looking at a small cost and the savings on gas? If you are really considering a Tesla to save money, it doesn't make sense. Get it because you want it, not for any kind of economic reasons. You can get a front-wheel drive EV of various types that can be somewhat exciting and you get enormous economic savings over the full price of a Tesla. Whether Nissan Leaf, Ford Energi models (Fusion is quite nice), Chevy Volt or others. The $40-60+K savings still saves you the gas while also buying an American-made EV and some of those have no range anxiety. Teslas are for those who have no real concern for the savings but rather want to have something new, unique, interesting and a somewhat fun/storied experience. It is much like when someone who grows up in a used-car world and goes to the showroom to buy their first new car at the age of 30.

Why not just wait a year and go for the Model X - which solves most of your issues. Just like the forthcoming Model X, other automakers will also have various interesting EVs coming out in the near-term years to come. Many are wanting to see a big jump in battery density and price decline before going all-in. But I do see various new EV models coming which can offer a similar excitement level to Teslas by the year 2018 or soon after.
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bonaire said: ?

This is the tell-tale sign. Looking at a small cost and the savings on gas? If you are really considering a Tesla to save money, it doesn't make sense. Get it because you want it, not for any kind of economic reasons. You can get a front-wheel drive EV of various types that can be somewhat exciting and you get enormous economic savings over the full price of a Tesla. Whether Nissan Leaf, Ford Energi models (Fusion is quite nice), Chevy Volt or others. The $40-60+K savings still saves you the gas while also buying an American-made EV and some of those have no range anxiety. Teslas are for those who have no real concern for the savings but rather want to have something new, unique, interesting and a somewhat fun/storied experience. It is much like when someone who grows up in a used-car world and goes to the showroom to buy their first new car at the age of 30.
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Isn't the Ford made in Mexico? The Volt isn't all that American made either (40% IIRC). Whether or not the Model S will be economical depends a great deal on how long you keep it and how much you drive.

- - - Updated - - -

scaesare said: ?

View attachment 42822
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Or this:

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bonaire said: ?

This is the tell-tale sign. Looking at a small cost and the savings on gas? If you are really considering a Tesla to save money, it doesn't make sense. Get it because you want it, not for any kind of economic reasons. You can get a front-wheel drive EV of various types that can be somewhat exciting and you get enormous economic savings over the full price of a Tesla. Whether Nissan Leaf, Ford Energi models (Fusion is quite nice), Chevy Volt or others. The $40-60+K savings still saves you the gas while also buying an American-made EV and some of those have no range anxiety. Teslas are for those who have no real concern for the savings but rather want to have something new, unique, interesting and a somewhat fun/storied experience. It is much like when someone who grows up in a used-car world and goes to the showroom to buy their first new car at the age of 30.

Why not just wait a year and go for the Model X - which solves most of your issues. Just like the forthcoming Model X, other automakers will also have various interesting EVs coming out in the near-term years to come. Many are wanting to see a big jump in battery density and price decline before going all-in. But I do see various new EV models coming which can offer a similar excitement level to Teslas by the year 2018 or soon after.
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+1!! Come on, folks, my original response may have come across as harsh but let's admit it. The Model S is NOT for everyone. A prospective buyer who compares the S to a 4WD SUV is going to notice differences. S/He then has to decide if those differences warrant making an alternate choice. Most of us agree selecting a Model S for the "savings" is not realistic. If savings is what s/he is looking for then the S is not the right choice. If a fishtail up a slippery driveway frightens the prospective buyer then perhaps the S is not the right choice.
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Isn't the Ford made in Mexico? The Volt isn't all that American made either (40% IIRC). Whether or not the Model S will be economical depends a great deal on how long you keep it and how much you drive.
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Volt N. American content should be over 55% now with the Michigan battery plant. Fusion may be made in Mexico, the Ford Focus EV is on the same line as the Focus ICE. It may be the most American-content EV out there. I believe Tesla is also similar to the Volt with 55% N. American content. I wouldn't buy the Ford models myself but if they made a 150 Mile BEV, in America, I might consider it. I can live with 120-150 mile AER and that is probably the next car we buy. Hoping it is a CUV that is fairly priced. Our suburban communities need CUVs and mini-vans and not more sedans. Picked up my daughter at school yesterday and was 10th in line of 9 mini-vans and CUVs ahead of me.

I replied mainly because I read Chipper's original reply. Some people are wanting to get a Model S now but don't consider waiting one year for a more-appropriate Model X. It must be their inability to wait. But seriously - it may be worth the wait for the Model X due to the utility benefits involved of AWD and size.
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pbleic said: ?

I could really use some help here. I was getting ready to buy a Model S, and had another test drive at my house, to see how the care did getting up my steep driveway. I know that nothing is perfect, but I have been collecting a bunch of "uh ohs" that are starting to add up:

1. The car was pretty good in the snowy driveway, but going slow, it definitely fish-tailed, which my 4WD SUV didn't at the same speed. We can get a lot more ice, and I am worried about having to leave my car in the street if things are really bad someday.

2. I learned that I might have to pay for the 3G internet access in the near future if I want to use the GPS and location service for Superchargers, etc. - this will likely add from $360 to $600 per year for operating the car, certainly eating into the savings on gas.

3. No lighted vanity lights? I know this is trivial, but it made me realize that there are a bunch of pretty typical luxury features that you can't get - heated steering wheel, blind spot assist, etc.

I know, this comes down to a personal choice, but I would welcome any input on this, and the "cold feet" syndrome.
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It is RWD. It will fishtail sometimes, but coming from driving a '97 Camaro for 7 years the difference is night and day. The electronic stability and traction control is the best ive personally seen on any vehicle. Combined with the super heaviness and low center of gravity, this car handles superbly well in bad weather conditions. HOWEVER, you must make sure you have appropriate tires. Get winter or studded tires depending on where you live. Please don't drive in crappy weather using summer performance tires as all of my points above will be irrelevant if you're dumb enough to drive on high performance summer tires in winter weather conditions.

Like others said don't worry about the 3G service. I think the industry is changing and IMO I really think the cost of simple "connected" devices will be negligible or $0 and paid for up front by the product manufacturers. I won't get into the details of that here. It certainly wouldn't cost more than $10/month max. Even if there is a fee, I think tesla might just pick up the tab on this and include it as part of the "yearly service". That's my opinion though.

The vanity lights are an oversight. Not much you can do here expect think of something a little creative. There's probably several battery powered solutions here you could get.

Honestly none of these questions should stop you from buying the car. These are silly really. You won't regret this purchase. Enjoy
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Chipper said: ?

+1!! Come on, folks, my original response may have come across as harsh but let's admit it. The Model S is NOT for everyone. A prospective buyer who compares the S to a 4WD SUV is going to notice differences. S/He then has to decide if those differences warrant making an alternate choice. Most of us agree selecting a Model S for the "savings" is not realistic. If savings is what s/he is looking for then the S is not the right choice. If a fishtail up a slippery driveway frightens the prospective buyer then perhaps the S is not the right choice.
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Chipper - your points highlight exactly my point about the difference in early adopter and early majority buyers. Early adopter buyers are willing to put up with a bunch of things that are "minor" but a hassle compared to luxury ICE cars. But, the early majority buyer is going to be much more sensitive to the practicality of owning the car. Another thing I have been reading about is the parts shortage with 3 month waits after minor auto accidents. This would be a disaster for me, as well. PS - I am not "frightened" about fish tailing up my driveway. I am appropriately concerned that I might have to leave my car in the street illegally after a big snow or worse, get it stuck sideways as happened to a rear wheel drive minivan I owned some years ago (required a winch to pull it down). Buying a car, and not a vision, requires analyzing the risk of these sorts of things vs. the benefits provided by the car. I am very aware of the many benefits, which is why I am having angst about this major decision.

Several people have said that "cost savings" isn't the object here. Yet, many talk about the difference in gas vs. electric energy prices for driving a car and the cost savings. The only way to really evaluate this (for an early majority buyer) is through an analysis of total cost of ownership (TCO). TCO includes the cost of the wireless, the cost of snow tires (~$1,500) which I never needed with a 4WD car, the cost above insurance for an Enterprise rental for 3 months in case of an accident* the likelihood of an accident, etc. Yes, this is balanced against reduced repair costs etc. Even those who argue about the value for the environment or getting off oil ascribe some specific (if not explicitly stated) value to this when evaluating a purchase. Cost is a consideration for EVERYBODY, no matter how rich you are. Nobody sane would pay $10M for the car, would they? Of course not. So, everyone makes an economic analysis about the value of the car vs. the TCO of the car and buys when the former exceeds the latter. Some do a basic analysis of the sticker price, others do a more advanced analysis of the TCO. I am in that latter category.

Again, in order for Tesla to become successful, it is going to have to cross the chasm to buyers like me. The car is going to have to be practical. And, early adopters like you are going to have to convince me of that practicality - that is the way that early majority buyers buy at the beginning of this phase of technology adoption. No matter how eloquently and vehemently an early adopter discusses the vision of the car and scoffs at the "minor" things I have brought up as examples (and there are a number more), it will not bring someone from the early majority over the line. Only Tesla's attention to these details and effective arguments by early adopters will cross the chasm. Then, Tesla's major issue will be keeping up with the demand.
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pbleic said: ?

Several people have said that "cost savings" isn't the object here. Yet, many talk about the difference in gas vs. electric energy prices for driving a car and the cost savings.
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A lot depends on what you're comparing it against. If your comparison car is a 7 Series, Mercedes S Class, or something similar, the Model S will save a boatload (assuming you drive a reasonable amount). If your comparison car is a Prius, it won't save you any money. The thing is that with any car purchase, each person has their own individual priorities. In addition, every car is a compromise between the various features that it can offer (price, safety, performance, style, comfort, durability, etc.) In my opinion, the Model S raises every one of the features except for purchase price and style, for many it's just purchase price.
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jerry33 said: ?

A lot depends on what you're comparing it against. If your comparison car is a 7 Series, Mercedes S Class, or something similar, the Model S will save a boatload (assuming you drive a reasonable amount). If your comparison car is a Prius, it won't save you any money. The thing is that with any car purchase, each person has their own individual priorities. In addition, every car is a compromise between the various features that it can offer (price, safety, performance, style, comfort, durability, etc.) In my opinion, the Model S raises every one of the features except for purchase price and style, for many it's just purchase price.
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Agree totally. But, rather than price, the analysis should be TCO. As you point out, it is but one of the factors; the importance of which vary from person to person.
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pbleic said: ?

Agree totally. But, rather than price, the analysis should be TCO. As you point out, it is but one of the factors; the importance of which vary from person to person.
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The TCO analysis I did before purchasing indicated it would be similar to a fully loaded Camry (so more expensive than the 2004 Prius it replaced, but not inordinately so). After a year of driving, that analysis hasn't materially changed.
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@pbleic

May I ask what kind of 4WD SUV you are driving now?

When doing the TCO analysis, are you also comparing the Tesla to something other than your current 4WD SUV?
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pbleic said: ?

Again, in order for Tesla to become successful, it is going to have to cross the chasm to buyers like me.
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Tesla is already successful.

The car is going to have to be practical.
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The car is already practical.

And, early adopters like you are going to have to convince me of that practicality - that is the way that early majority buyers buy at the beginning of this phase of technology adoption.
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Nobody has to convince you of anything. The car sells itself as is evidenced by $0 traditional advertising, the fact that Tesla doesn't have traditional sales people/dealership model, et al and that they continue to have a waiting list.

People buy what best suits them in the moment. Those that need convincing or being talked into something tend to be disappointed after the fact. Make your own decision, based on your own personal preferences.

No matter how eloquently and vehemently an early adopter discusses the vision of the car and scoffs at the "minor" things I have brought up as examples (and there are a number more), it will not bring someone from the early majority over the line.
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*You* place importance on 'minor' things. That doesn't mean others do and it doesn't mean the majority of others do. Also, you assume that everyone's list is the same. For instance, the only time I'd use a vanity mirror is if I thought I had something in my eye. And guess what? I've owned vehicles with no vanity mirrors, never mind lighted ones. I can use the rear view mirror, a compact (not that I've ever owned one, let alone carried it on my persons), a side mirror, or pull over at one of thousands of fast food restaurants and use their bathroom mirror. So not having lighted vanity mirrors doesn't even hit my 'minor things list', making vanity mirror/lighted vanity mirror of less than zero relevance in my car life.

Only Tesla's attention to these details and effective arguments by early adopters will cross the chasm. Then, Tesla's major issue will be keeping up with the demand.
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Tesla already has paid attention to details - just not the details important to you, rather the ones important to Elon Musk - and from what I've read all over the Internet, The Early Adopters have been fantastic ambassadors for Tesla.

Tesla's major issue is already trying to keep up with demand and that's likely to continue for many years. They have been production constrained from the get go.
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pbleic said: ?

Agree totally. But, rather than price, the analysis should be TCO. As you point out, it is but one of the factors; the importance of which vary from person to person.
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One of the draws of the Model S is the price. Many believe that if it costs more, it must be better. If Ford or Chevy sold the exact same car with similar specs, it would have less interest at 3/4 the price. The wait, the story and the intrigue, which are part of buying any new luxury vehicle is built into the price. I know one co worker who bought a new 740iL for $100k because he was in sales and "needed it". One of our younger guys bought a used 740il a few years later for $25k. Couldn't tell the difference.

to many early adopters, money is less of an option. Yet, we also read of people here stretching to make the payments, and who are also stretching to make a statement. Not a lot of people will pay more to make such a statement which is why high mile BEV for lower prices is absolutely needed for EVs to maintain growth in the market. Without incentives, they would be hurting badly. Norway without its incentives would not be a hotbed. CA without the HOV lane access rights would be less of an EV sales region. Yet many do pay up to save what they think is meaningful resources.

what will make a difference is very mass produced and mass accepted EVs. I will be going to the local auto show today or tomorrow in my area, Philadelphia. Last year, there was very little interest in electric cars and this year gasoline prices are very much the same as last year. Consumers will adopt eVs when it meets their level of convenience and price capacity. However they will want utility and that will be a mix of $20-25k 120 mile AER EVs along with something like the Mitsubishi Outlander CUV EREVs which may be a big hit in the USA like it was in Holland (due to incentives).

Early adopters along with government incentives are helping drive EV interest and slow early adoption. However, so much more is needed and we will see how the big companies do with the next generation of batteries coming along. I do feel that a 200 mile EV is not necessary. Make a good cheap 120 miler so that a family can buy both a commuter EV or two and have a backup leftover ICE for trips. I am a Volt driver now and am looking for this transition to happen before going forward with full BEV. I can imagine a commuter BeV sedan and EREV CUV being the norm in many households. I think we should rent our pickup trucks and not buy them just for the few times we use them. But this is America and boys will be boys.
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@Kruggerand Tesla is not already successful. They have a long way to go in going from the early adopters who have bought a tiny number of cars to the mainstream. They aren't profitable yet and have financial multiples no different than any startup. They are just arriving at the chasm that can make or break companies. There is a limited market for a car at this price point and a huge challenge at meeting a mass market at the Model E price point. As a potential buyer, I really hope they can make it as I will be dependent on their success. It is easy for buyers and companies to get fooled into complacency. Witness Betamax.
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jerry33 said: ?

A lot depends on what you're comparing it against. If your comparison car is a 7 Series, Mercedes S Class, or something similar, the Model S will save a boatload (assuming you drive a reasonable amount). If your comparison car is a Prius, it won't save you any money. The thing is that with any car purchase, each person has their own individual priorities. In addition, every car is a compromise between the various features that it can offer (price, safety, performance, style, comfort, durability, etc.) In my opinion, the Model S raises every one of the features except for purchase price and style, for many it's just purchase price.
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Problem is, what if you already have the 7-series. You do not replace it with something new to save money. The only time it saves is this. You just receive word you have a $120k inheritance and must buy a car. You have to buy one car of at least $80k and the remaining money is for fuel and upkeep. Your choices are Mercedes, BMW and Tesla. You must keep it 10 years. Then doing a TCO of the choices, you will find the Tesla to have the lowest cost TCO. But nobody is going to lower their TCO by selling an existing car and replacing it with a new one. I wish people would skip the whole TCO benefit of EVs, small and large, and get to the point. They are cool, they have a smooth torquey drive, they are innovative. They keep you from using oil. Collectively if 9 million people drove EVs instead of ICE cars for at least 10,000 miles a year, we could stop buying oil from OPEC. That is a lot of work ahead of us. I say the cool factor of the Model s is 80% to the 20% practical aspects involved. It is an emotional purchase for some, it is vanity - just as their prior purchases of Mercedes or BMW were. Not a purely practical one. If we were all practical we would drive cheap, used, 40 mpg econoboxes or buy used off lease Volts and Leafs if you are really deep down allergic to oil. But many of the practical arguments "for" buying are in fact many people's attempt to hide their emotional- and vanity-driven desires.
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bonaire said: ?

Problem is, what if you already have the 7-series. You do not replace it with something new to save money.
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My assumption is that you are looking because the 7 Series is going to be replaced anyway, or that you are moving up from something to a 7 Series, not that you are selling your two or three year old 7 Series. You are comparing new 7 Series and new Model S, not existing 7 Series and new Model S. Of course, there are a lot of other reasons to purchase a Model S.
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pbleic said: ?

But, the early majority buyer is going to be much more sensitive to the practicality of owning the car.

<snip>everyone makes an economic analysis about the value of the car vs. the TCO of the car and buys when the former exceeds the latter. Some do a basic analysis of the sticker price, others do a more advanced analysis of the TCO. I am in that latter category.

Again, in order for Tesla to become successful, it is going to have to cross the chasm to buyers like me. <snip>

Then, Tesla's major issue will be keeping up with the demand.
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Tesla is on track with the long term strategy to provide compelling sustainable personal transportation to the masses -- that being the Model E in 2017 or so. Perhaps the Model E is what should be the target for the early majority and the rest, and IMO has always been Tesla's plan for crossing the chasm. The Model S is the more expensive "funding machine" that is helping Tesla gain capital to invest in the charging infrastructure and pay for the design and manufacture of later vehicles. The Model E's TCO will look much better. Revisit your arguments and think about them in terms of the Model E - does that fit better?

And -- Tesla's major issue is already keeping up with the demand.
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pbleic said: ?

@Kruggerand Tesla is not already successful. They have a long way to go in going from the early adopters who have bought a tiny number of cars to the mainstream. They aren't profitable yet and have financial multiples no different than any startup. They are just arriving at the chasm that can make or break companies. There is a limited market for a car at this price point and a huge challenge at meeting a mass market at the Model E price point. As a potential buyer, I really hope they can make it as I will be dependent on their success. It is easy for buyers and companies to get fooled into complacency. Witness Betamax.
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Gotta say, you're pretty wrong here. Whether you consider Tesla "successful", that is an opinion without a concrete definition of what successful means. But I'd say garnering Motor Trend's Car of the year, Automobile magazine Car of the year, the highest score Consumer Reports has ever given to a car, the best safety score ever achieved by the NHTSA, outselling all competetive brands in many markets, and many other accolades would go a long way toward "successful".

As far as profitability, Tesla's already making tons of cash. That's why they paid off their loan early. We're talking on the order of 30% gross margin on every vehicle. That's huge. Of course, because Elon is a good businessman, they are investing that money in infrastructure (Superchargers, service centers, showrooms, battery factories) to build the company, but no matter how you look at it, they're making money.

They could slow R&D, Supercharger expansion, or any of those other items and show a much bigger profit, but they don't need to.

The company that wants to be successful today would stop those other expenses and start raking the cash in as pure profit.

The company that wants to continue to be successful tomorrow invests it into R&D, infrastructure, manufacturing capacity, etc.

But make no mistake--they are definitely profitable.

And if you think comparing them to "any other startup" is valid, you're wrong there. They're not any other startup. They're not just any other car company. Their product, technology, and infrastructure is far ahead of the competition. Even if a competing car company came out with a 400 mile EV, where's the charging network? Where's the high-speed charging technology? In this respect, Tesla is already YEARS ahead of the nearest competitor, and every day that goes by puts them another day ahead.
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pbleic said: ?

the cost of snow tires (~$1,500) which I never needed with a 4WD car.
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A roll into the median waiting to happen. Although a lot of people have 4WD, it's often referred to as 4 Wheel Skid.

Buy a used Subaru, wait 2 years and look again.
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bonaire said: ?

One of the draws of the Model S is the price. Many believe that if it costs more, it must be better. If Ford or Chevy sold the exact same car with similar specs, it would have less interest at 3/4 the price.
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I don't agree with this. Tesla isn't a brand that commands a price premium. Tesla has a product that is at the forefront of a technology shift in cars and, as such, some are willing to pay more to be part of that (and/or to support a company that is serious about making the transition happen).

If the Model S was at a lower price, I'd buy more options (and/or buy more upgrades) not reconsider the car. If Ford or Chevy sold the same car with similar specs, I wouldn't be able to buy one because it would probably be a compliance car only available in California.
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Todd, the Chevy Volt got all those awards back in 2011. Both the Volt and Model S are great cars. Awards do not promise a strong future. Volt sales are now slow, but mainly due to GM's own fault. There are some headwinds for all EV makers no matter how much we love them and want them on all streetcorners. If you are an EV owner, like me, we cringe when we see someone idling their SUV outside of a store waiting for someone to come out. However, we are a tiny minority.

brian, you are right, the price of admission is a desire to help the EV adoption happen. The number of people willing to pay it is limited. This is a premium price. In 10 years, cars equivalent to the MS will be under $50k for a P85. It indeed commands a premium price as we haves seen prices rise on options twice in the last 13 months. It commands it because there are no competitors. If you want an MS, you pay to play, or at least try to find a discounted loaner. I am more of a bottom feeder and might pick up a used MS in 2016 off lease or used. I just know this is like back in 1991 when my firm used to buy PCs with Intel 486-33 Mhz chips in them for $2800.00. Prices have come down since. In a similar view, the current list price of the MS will have to start to come down next year once the MX starts to ship. This current price is a start up price but is not sustainable years to come if the company is viewed as Tech.
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Todd Burch said: ?

...As far as profitability, Tesla's already making tons of cash. That's why they paid off their loan early. We're talking on the order of 30% gross margin on every vehicle. That's huge. Of course, because Elon is a good businessman, they are investing that money in infrastructure (Superchargers, service centers, showrooms, battery factories) to build the company, but no matter how you look at it, they're making money.

They could slow R&D, Supercharger expansion, or any of those other items and show a much bigger profit, but they don't need to.

The company that wants to be successful today would stop those other expenses and start raking the cash in as pure profit.

The company that wants to continue to be successful tomorrow invests it into R&D, infrastructure, manufacturing capacity, etc.

But make no mistake--they are definitely profitable...
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Todd:
Believe me, I would like to see Tesla as a profitable company, as that would increase my confidence that they will be successful one day (that is, financially secure). However, they are not profitable at this point under GAAP accounting. They lost $38M 3Q2013. You are quite correct that they have figured out how to manufacture a car with a gross margin of 30%. But that is not how you define profitability. That is their GROSS profit margin. To determine whether a company is profitable, you need to look at NET income, which is, and has been negative. BTW, their debt has increased YOY in Q3 from $475 to $677M. The Return on Assets is -6.81%, which means they are burning balance sheet cash to run their business, not producing cash. The trailing 12 month free cash flow is -$148M. Make no mistake, this is not a profitable company by any measure.

All that being said, they could well manage to make a huge success from this, especially with all the recognition and accolades that you mention. But the trick is going to be going after the mainstream market. Their big challenge in the coming years is scale - taking a 25,000 car producer to a 200,000/yr producer with multiple lines. This is going to require a LOT of investment, which will further depress profitability. They were lucky to buy up a lot of factories for cheap in 2008-2009, but it is going to cost them a lot going forward.

This also goes into my buying equation; I want to make sure the company I am buying from will be around and will be able to service my vehicle during it's lifetime.
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pbleic said: ?

This also goes into my buying equation; I want to make sure the company I am buying from will be around and will be able to service my vehicle during it's lifetime.
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Really. The Model S is not for you right now. Go buy a different car. Lots of 4WD options. Check again in a few years.
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Sounds like you should wait for the Model X which IS 4wd and won't be fishtailing up your driveway. Put you're reservation down and your done
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Todd Burch said: ?

Gotta say, you're pretty wrong here...
And if you think comparing them to "any other startup" is valid, you're wrong there. They're not any other startup. They're not just any other car company. Their product, technology, and infrastructure is far ahead of the competition. Even if a competing car company came out with a 400 mile EV, where's the charging network? Where's the high-speed charging technology? In this respect, Tesla is already YEARS ahead of the nearest competitor, and every day that goes by puts them another day ahead.
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Here are a few companies that exactly fit your description, but spectacularly failed: Iridium Communications, raised $6B in the 90's and was bankrupt by 2001. eToys, raised $386M, market cap of $11B in 1999, bankrupt in March 2001, Webvan went from a $1.2B in sales company with 4,500 employees to liquidation in 2 year. They overextended themselves by spending $1B on a string of $30M warehouses across the country, expanding too quickly

Companies at Tesla's stage are in a precarious position, despite all the hoopla about them. They need to begin to spend magnitudes more money, with that much more risk - ahead of the market. For me, I have no investment interest in them. As mentioned before, I just want them to be around to supply parts for my car as it ages.
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pbleic said: ?

However, they are not profitable at this point under GAAP accounting.
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That is just due to an oddity in GAAP accounting where some of the profits are postponed until later years. Bear in mind how accounting works:

A manager was interviewing some new prospective employees. The first applicant was an engineer. The manager asked, "How much is two plus two?". The engineer pulled out his laptop, typed in some formulae and responded, "Four". Next came a mathematician. The manager asked, "How much is two plus two?". The mathematician went to the blackboard wrote down some numbers and responded, "Four.". Then an accountant was interviewed. After being asked the same question, the accountant looked around, went to the windows and drew the curtains, went to the door looked out and closed the door. Then we went over to the manager and said, "How much would you like it to be?".
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There is nothing in life as a sure thing. If that is what you need before you buy into the future you will never find it. Because if everyone felt that way Tesla would be non-existent.
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pbleic said: ?

This also goes into my buying equation; I want to make sure the company I am buying from will be around and will be able to service my vehicle during it's lifetime.
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There are NO guarantees in life.
NONE.
You put your money down, and take your chances.
You seem to have very high standards for detail items and a need for full creature comfort.

Some of your points are valid (to you), this one is highly suspect and in my opinion flawed.
Best of Luck with the vehicle you decide to purchase.
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wiztecy said: ?

Sounds like you should wait for the Model X which IS 4wd and won't be fishtailing up your driveway. Put you're reservation down and your done
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I thought so exactly until I heard THREE rows of adult seats. I am done with minivans; grown kids. I want a 4WD Model S. Sounds like this is possible, but not until 2016 or so.

PS - in answer to other questions - I have a BMW X3. The test drive vehicle was a P85 with snow tires. It really performed quite well going quickly up the driveway. However, the driveway can get a lot more icy, so I went up very slowly (which worked fine in my X3) and the car came to a standstill and slid backwards because of traction control. So, I took traction control off and that is when it fishtailed. Someone asked about that.

Despite my reservations, I am actually thinking that I will place a deposit this weekend.

PPS - I am not a stickler for lighted vanity mirrors. They just represent a bunch of things which typically come standard in a luxury car at this price point.
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pbleic said: ?

The test drive vehicle was a P85 with snow tires. ... However, the driveway can get a lot more icy, so I went up very slowly (which worked fine in my X3) and the car came to a standstill and slid backwards because of traction control.
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If it had the Pirelli snow tires, that's the expected behaviour--they really aren't that good for snow and ice as they are designed for high speeds in cold weather rather than. There are even videos of this behaviour from last year in the winter tire thread.
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pbleic said: ?

I thought so exactly until I heard THREE rows of adult seats. I am done with minivans; grown kids. I want a 4WD Model S. Sounds like this is possible, but not until 2016 or so.

PS - in answer to other questions - I have a BMW X3. The test drive vehicle was a P85 with snow tires. It really performed quite well going quickly up the driveway. However, the driveway can get a lot more icy, so I went up very slowly (which worked fine in my X3) and the car came to a standstill and slid backwards because of traction control. So, I took traction control off and that is when it fishtailed. Someone asked about that.

Despite my reservations, I am actually thinking that I will place a deposit this weekend.

PPS - I am not a stickler for lighted vanity mirrors. They just represent a bunch of things which typically come standard in a luxury car at this price point.
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Here's another thought for you: how often is your driveway actually icy? I'm from Chicago and it didn't happen all that often. Could you not park on the street or throw down salt, sand, or cat litter for those days when it's too icy to go up the driveway?
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Tesla has a plan to go from early adopter to mass market. The started out with the Roadster, a 2 seat modified Lotus for proof of concept, and to learn the market.

They followed this up with a fully designed in house 4 door sedan to appeal to a larger marketplace. Early adopters could get a smaller battery pack, but Tesla adapeted and began to stress the longer endurance 60 and 80 size batteries. They expanded the market place by offering even more upscale performance motor and handling models with larger, and more stylish wheel options.

They will soon expand their marketplace with a 4 wheel drive SUV, and already are in the planning stages to release a much less expensive model family sedan for the less wealthy.

So if their first sedan does not have all the bells and whistles that are on other vehicles, it is just because they are moving up the evolutionary scale that other vehicle makers have been on for decades.

For years Mercedes was reluctant to provide cup holders for their drivers. Finally they relented when their President saw someone driving down the road with a cup holder in their Gold Wing motorcycle. Some things just take a bit of time.
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jerry33 said: ?

That is just due to an oddity in GAAP accounting where some of the profits are postponed until later years.
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Nope. That is not what this is about. GAAP is the standard, accepted accounting methodology, and is the measure of profitability, period. Companies report non-GAAP numbers because they have a one time expense such as a lawsuit, opening a factory, or as Tesla did in Q2, paying off a DOE loan early. That is a reasonable practice that most companies use. However, Tesla recently began doing something that many analysts see as quite controversial. They are accounting for their revenue on the re-sale of cars that will be "re-purchased" from buyers in 3 years. They are claiming that revenue as deferred revenues, estimating what they think they will make based upon a value that none of us can know. That effectively moves the revenues FORWARD from when they actually occur. Analysts are saying that this is effectively a leasing arrangement, and the revenues need to be taken when they actually occur at the price they actually occur at. This accounting method shifted them from non-profitable to slightly profitable for 3 quarters under this unusual non-GAAP methodology. Further, they apparently emphasized the non-GAAP numbers in their reporting, which is in opposition to SEC rules. There is a nice summary here: Are There Cockroaches Under Tesla's Hood? - Bloomberg

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Todd Burch said: ?

Here's another thought for you: how often is your driveway actually icy? I'm from Chicago and it didn't happen all that often. Could you not park on the street or throw down salt, sand, or cat litter for those days when it's too icy to go up the driveway?
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Actually a fair bit of the winter; we are north facing. Yes, I have been thinking (as I come closer to pulling the trigger) that I will just have to be more aggressive with salt/sand. Staying on the street won't work; overnight parking results in a ticket in the winter.
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pbleic said: ?

@Kruggerand Tesla is not already successful. They have a long way to go in going from the early adopters who have bought a tiny number of cars to the mainstream. They aren't profitable yet and have financial multiples no different than any startup. They are just arriving at the chasm that can make or break companies. There is a limited market for a car at this price point and a huge challenge at meeting a mass market at the Model E price point. As a potential buyer, I really hope they can make it as I will be dependent on their success. It is easy for buyers and companies to get fooled into complacency. Witness Betamax.
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How quickly you move from your initial "concerns" into every more baseless troll territory. You sound like Logical Thought.
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stevezzzz said: ?

not to mention that everyone in the car knows how far it is to the next stop so negotiations between those with two-hour bladders and those with six-hour bladders are avoided.
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And there it is! The number one reason to buy a Model S! Why wasn't this mentioned on the Tesla web page? Why isn't this mentioned elsewhere on this forum? How can we have gone on blabbering about this car and company for so long and no one mentioned this until now?

pbleic said: ?

@Kruggerand Tesla is not already successful. They have a long way to go in going from the early adopters who have bought a tiny number of cars to the mainstream. They aren't profitable yet and have financial multiples no different than any startup.
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And with this you and I will have to disagree. Tesla is successful by many many measures. Apparently not the one your accountant brain must be using (aka GAAP). What matters to me is the product is amazing, the brand is thriving, the cash in the bank is increasing, even with some heavy spending now and with even more to come in the future. This company is now about 11 years old...way beyond the startup phase. Initial investors have been payed back (with profit) with the IPO, there is little debt, headcount is at several thousand, and most importantly the cash coming in is greater than the cash going out. Startup? Nope.

The advantages Tesla has by just skirting the dealership model are incredible. Check out the angst the early BWM i3 buyers are having because the dealerships are playing their usual games on pricing above MSRP, adding "fees" and "marketing costs" as the dealer sharks sense demand is above supply. This is coming FROM the early adopters who really really want to get a cheaper premium EV than the Model S. And they seem to be as one in realizing the Tesla business model won't allow for that, and there are many who are willing to place a real value on not getting jerked around. It's the knowledge that the price shown is the price paid, and the piece of mind that affords.

You're looking for stability, well I'd be willing to put real $$$ down (and have via TSLA stock) that Tesla will be thriving in 10 years, and Chrysler won't. I'd bet real $ that in 20 years GM will be out of the passenger car business and build only heavy trucks, and Chrysler in 20 years will be dead and gone and we'll be left with the big two in the USA: Ford and Tesla.
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jerry33 said: ?

That is just due to an oddity in GAAP accounting where some of the profits are postponed until later years. Bear in mind how accounting works:

A manager was interviewing some new prospective employees. The first applicant was an engineer. The manager asked, "How much is two plus two?". The engineer pulled out his laptop, typed in some formulae and responded, "Four". Next came a mathematician. The manager asked, "How much is two plus two?". The mathematician went to the blackboard wrote down some numbers and responded, "Four.". Then an accountant was interviewed. After being asked the same question, the accountant looked around, went to the windows and drew the curtains, went to the door looked out and closed the door. Then we went over to the manager and said, "How much would you like it to be?".
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haha That is a pretty great joke!

@OP: You keep talking about the curve to mainstream and how peoples passion for the company and the dream doesn't impact this curve, I would have to contest this. As much as I hate Apple (for my own reasons) the reason they were successful was not just the cool sleek product that they released. They were not the first to make a decent MP3 player, they were behind by quite a few years. It was because of the way that Apple markets to people. Instead of telling people here is a cool product, and this is why you need it... They tell people that, hey we understand you... We are right there with you in this, believe in us, and we will make that happen... Oh yeah, and here is a product that goes toward that goal. That's why almost all people who own an apple product either got it because "it's an Apple" or because someone else got/convinced them to get it for that reason.

Tesla is working very much down the same path, and historically this has been the best marketing strategy (Apple is not the only one). It's why there are no, or very few, Prior Tesla owners who hated the car outright. Almost all the hate comes from people who have not bought into the car/company yet... And their opinion should not deflect you from an otherwise great product.

As far as crossing into the mainstream curve, I don't think Tesla or anyone expects that to happen until the Model E. All signs point to them doing at least 100k on their first year, when it is released, and jumping very rapidly toward 1 million a year. Given the latest consumer reports perception survey (which is basically a measure of people's opinions and not any real facts), Tesla now sits at number 5, in perception behind Toyota, ford, Chevy, and I think Honda. That is a really great place to be in their second year. I wouldn't think there will be any issue selling a 40k car.
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EnergyMax said: ?

How quickly you move from your initial "concerns" into every more baseless troll territory. You sound like Logical Thought.
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Seriously? Is it really necessary to move into ad hominem? I still have, and am discussing my original concerns. Do you really think that buyers of a car shouldn't think about or consider the financial viability of the company selling their car? Isn't that part of my equation in considering whether to buy this car? My comments are neither baseless nor incorrect. I am sorry if the financial risks in the company somehow make you upset and then you call me names.

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chickensevil said: ?

@OP: You keep talking about the curve to mainstream and how peoples passion for the company and the dream doesn't impact this curve, I would have to contest this. As much as I hate Apple (for my own reasons) the reason they were successful was not just the cool sleek product that they released. They were not the first to make a decent MP3 player, they were behind by quite a few years. It was because of the way that Apple markets to people. Instead of telling people here is a cool product, and this is why you need it... They tell people that, hey we understand you... We are right there with you in this, believe in us, and we will make that happen... Oh yeah, and here is a product that goes toward that goal. That's why almost all people who own an apple product either got it because "it's an Apple" or because someone else got/convinced them to get it for that reason.

Tesla is working very much down the same path, and historically this has been the best marketing strategy (Apple is not the only one). It's why there are no, or very few, Prior Tesla owners who hated the car outright. Almost all the hate comes from people who have not bought into the car/company yet... And their opinion should not deflect you from an otherwise great product.

As far as crossing into the mainstream curve, I don't think Tesla or anyone expects that to happen until the Model E. All signs point to them doing at least 100k on their first year, when it is released, and jumping very rapidly toward 1 million a year. Given the latest consumer reports perception survey (which is basically a measure of people's opinions and not any real facts), Tesla now sits at number 5, in perception behind Toyota, ford, Chevy, and I think Honda. That is a really great place to be in their second year. I wouldn't think there will be any issue selling a 40k car.
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I agree with you. I didn't mean to imply that passions, etc. don't affect people's buying habits. But every technology - Apple or otherwise - only enters the mainstream when the buying transitions from the enthusiasts to people who just want a technology that works for them. The best example is the personal computer industry pre-IBM PC. Lots of enthusiasts doing amazing and cool things with the Apple II, the Commodore, etc. But the IBM PC launched with something special - a word processor and spreadsheet that were easy to use, and didn't require substantial technical expertise. These were things that ordinary people needed and the personal computer "crossed the chasm."
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pbleic said: ?

Seriously? Is it really necessary to move into ad hominem? I still have, and am discussing my original concerns. Do you really think that buyers of a car shouldn't think about or consider the financial viability of the company selling their car? Isn't that part of my equation in considering whether to buy this car? My comments are neither baseless nor incorrect. I am sorry if the financial risks in the company somehow make you upset and then you call me names.

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I agree with you. I didn't mean to imply that passions, etc. don't affect people's buying habits. But every technology - Apple or otherwise - only enters the mainstream when the buying transitions from the enthusiasts to people who just want a technology that works for them. The best example is the personal computer industry pre-IBM PC. Lots of enthusiasts doing amazing and cool things with the Apple II, the Commodore, etc. But the IBM PC launched with something special - a word processor and spreadsheet that were easy to use, and didn't require substantial technical expertise. These were things that ordinary people needed and the personal computer "crossed the chasm."
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I am not upset. I am saying Tesla has succeeded and its place is assured. You are bringing up points which have nothing to do with vanity lights and steep angle tailspin.
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EnergyMax said: ?

I am not upset. I am saying Tesla has succeeded and its place is assured. You are bringing up points which have nothing to do with vanity lights and steep angle tailspin.
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Yes, you are right. They weren't in my original post. But as I do research, there are other considerations that come up - long wait for repairs in case of an accident; financial stability.

I will say that I found this very positive fundamental analysis from last quarter: Tesla Motors Inc (TSLA): Based On Its Recent Earnings, Tesla's Share Price Is Ahead Of Its Underlying Fundamentals - Seeking Alpha

That is comforting. I am trying to tick off and address the concerns I have in buying this very unique and amazing car. Believe me, I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for that!
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pbleic said: ?

The best example is the personal computer industry pre-IBM PC. Lots of enthusiasts doing amazing and cool things with the Apple II, the Commodore, etc. But the IBM PC launched with something special - a word processor and spreadsheet that were easy to use, and didn't require substantial technical expertise. These were things that ordinary people needed and the personal computer "crossed the chasm."
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Yeah, not really accurate, even though I get your point.

The IBM PC was actually a flop (where are they now in the personal computer industry?). It was the PC clone industry and Microsoft who helped cross the chasm. Also, the Apple ][ was the first personal computer to popularize the spreadsheet with VisiCalc.

I get your "crossing the chasm" argument, however, I would argue that the Model S is not (and was never designed to) be that car. As others have pointed out, that car is the Model E.

You're not going to be able to compare luxury creature comforts in the MS with any luxury brand in the same price class. They won't stack up. I would argue the same could be argued the other way with regards to power train. They can't match Tesla in that regard.
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pbleic said: ?

.... But every technology - Apple or otherwise - only enters the mainstream when the buying transitions from the enthusiasts to people who just want a technology that works for them. ...<snip>... These were things that ordinary people needed and the personal computer "crossed the chasm."
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So, again, the chasm bridge would appear to have been planned by Tesla (years ago) as the Model E, their third generation vehicle, built for "ordinary people". Arguing about the chasm now is like arguing the number of angels on a pin - the angel-pin-reader will be here around 2017-18. What we *have seen* is Tesla with a published long term strategy, and making appropriate short- and medium term moves to advance towards the end strategic goal. Tesla is a very disruptive company on many fronts (as previous and other posts have pointed out in detail). Traditional market valuations still have their place, and yet they don't explain everything and aren't built to handle the kind of complex market and process change that Tesla is forcing. Even Tesla can't predict how things will change -- but that's the beauty of principle-based decision-making and an ethical company (IMO) -- Tesla doesn't have to FEAR what will change because they're driving a good chunk of it (or at least, they don't have to fear as much as the rest of the automotive market).

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Buying a Model S now, or reserving an X, is really a leap of faith, in Tesla as a company and in trusting the longevity of its products. There is no problem having concerns that hold you back from taking that leap. Wait until the bridge is built, then walk on the solid planks. [/FONT](Actually, for us buying/ordering now, the leap is more a short jump -- the founders and signatures were the ones who took the LEAP ...thankyou, thank you y'all, you know who you are.)
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Ugliest1 said: ?

So, again, the chasm bridge would appear to have been planned by Tesla (years ago) as the Model E, their third generation vehicle, built for "ordinary people". Arguing about the chasm now is like arguing the number of angels on a pin - the angel-pin-reader will be here around 2017-18. What we *have seen* is Tesla with a published long term strategy, and making appropriate short- and medium term moves to advance towards the end strategic goal. Tesla is a very disruptive company on many fronts (as previous and other posts have pointed out in detail). Traditional market valuations still have their place, and yet they don't explain everything and aren't built to handle the kind of complex market and process change that Tesla is forcing. Even Tesla can't predict how things will change -- but that's the beauty of principle-based decision-making and an ethical company (IMO) -- Tesla doesn't have to FEAR what will change because they're driving a good chunk of it (or at least, they don't have to fear as much as the rest of the automotive market).

Buying a Model S now, or reserving an X, is really a leap of faith, in Tesla as a company and in trusting the longevity of its products. There is no problem having concerns that hold you back from taking that leap. Wait until the bridge is built, then walk on the solid planks. (Actually, for us buying/ordering now, the leap is more a short jump -- the founders and signatures were the ones who took the LEAP ...thankyou, thank you y'all, you know who you are.)
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Great post. I have taken leaps of faith before, but never at this price level. That being said, I have the car picked out in another tab and I am hovering over the order button.

So - blue exterior with black leather seats?
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pbleic said: ?

Great post. I have taken leaps of faith before, but never at this price level. That being said, I have the car picked out in another tab and I am hovering over the order button.

So - blue exterior with black leather seats?
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I respect all that you have said, to be truthful I was familiar with Tesla back in the beginning and did not pay much attention to them. Thought it was just someone with lots of money and a crazy business plan. I did pay attention to the company over the first years and realized at some point that this company was different. I still was not in the market for an expensive sports car, was driving Jaguars since 1970 and it was a love hate relationship. When I was in the market for an electric vehicle and wanted to move to a sedan, the model s caught my eye. By then I was familiar with the company and did the research about the design and knew that buying one of these was a bit of a gamble but chose to jump in and spend about 20k more than I have ever spent. As you have seen there are many of us who love the company and the car. So do not take what has been said on a personal level. We all hope you enjoy the experience no matter what decision you end up making.
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It really is a leap of faith. Owning a Tesla is like a religious conversion! I have never felt this way about a car before, but I am completly smitten by my Model S. Don't sweat the small stuff and drink the Coolaid! You'll be happy you did!
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pbleic said: ?

@Kruggerand Tesla is not already successful.
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That's a matter of opinion, like the importance of lighted vanity mirrors. Every person they put in one of their cars (or put in another brand's EV) is one more notch in the success belt. Every new SuperCharger installed, every dealership lawsuit they win, and every new market they enter is another measure of success and one step closer to realizing their ultimate goal.

There are people who concern themselves specifically and singularly with the potential current financial state/future potential/longevity of a company and buy products based solely on that. But the beauty of cars is that there's this little thing called 'The Aftermarket' that has always existed for cars and is a multi-billion dollar market. I assure you it is alive and well, and will exist for Tesla vehicles just as it exists for hundreds of makes and models of cars that haven't been in production for decades.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aftermarket_(automotive)
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pbleic said: ?

I thought so exactly until I heard THREE rows of adult seats. I am done with minivans; grown kids. I want a 4WD Model S. Sounds like this is possible, but not until 2016 or so.

PS - in answer to other questions - I have a BMW X3. The test drive vehicle was a P85 with snow tires. It really performed quite well going quickly up the driveway. However, the driveway can get a lot more icy, so I went up very slowly (which worked fine in my X3) and the car came to a standstill and slid backwards because of traction control. So, I took traction control off and that is when it fishtailed. Someone asked about that.

Despite my reservations, I am actually thinking that I will place a deposit this weekend.

PPS - I am not a stickler for lighted vanity mirrors. They just represent a bunch of things which typically come standard in a luxury car at this price point.
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Actually they talked about an AWD Model S coming out near launch of model X so early 2015.
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pbleic said: ?

Great post. I have taken leaps of faith before, but never at this price level. That being said, I have the car picked out in another tab and I am hovering over the order button.

So - blue exterior with black leather seats?
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That is what I got, so I approve of this choice!
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A wise work colleague once told me that all the big decissions in life are best made based only on a feeling. He meant choosing your career, your significant other, your house and your car. All of these decissions are so big and have so many aspects that if you try to approach them intellectually, you will get lost in self doubt. The best approach is to only ask yourself one simple question: Do you want this career/spouse/house/car? If the answer is yes, there is no reason to think the matter any further (or worry about cold feet).

But what do I know, I am single and don't own a house...

Pate
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Best advice I got on here when contemplating buying a Model S over a year ago was simply "if there's another car that would make you happier, buy it."

I had been bouncing back and forth between a 40kWh or a 60kWh. I took that advice to heart, bought a P85, and haven't regretted one bit.
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What did it for us is the winning combination of spacious cabin, comfortable ride, awesome amounts of storage space for whatever you want to take with you, and still really good handling and performance (we've had snow, though we don't have an icy steep driveway so I can't speak for that...), and still have exceptional fuel efficiency. How often do you see all those together in one car? Surely that is worth at least slightly more than the sum of each individual benefit.
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Aside from all the benefits mentioned, I also picked up my son from the airport recently as he was home for the holidays. He brought his girlfriend with him and they had a lot of luggage, which we struggled to get into the trunk, but then my wife brought up the frunk since we are so used to having an engine in there that we had more cargo capacity. Everything fit snug and we had much more space than expected.
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Data plan concerns are warranted and not what all cars are going to do. Navigation requires 3g, the new AT&T relationship is going to look to get paid, and simply to get a route up on Tesla's screen will require it. Google maps will too, I think (non-tech pkg).

Garmin is free. The Volt, and other cars have and are likely to continue providing free nav, even using a portion of the Sirius signal ($4 month) for real-time NAV traffic.

I'd love it if surfing the net while waiting for my wife was something I could cancel, at who knows, $30/month, but we're talking about another monthly cash stream for other integral tech package features.

During a recent test drive, it was made clear to me that even if your phone-as-hotspot is activated, the tethering is something Tesla is merely "Allowing". Feel lucky?

Maybe it was the $600 yearly required service contracts, that while no longer mandatory, left a taste in prospective and current Tesla owners mouths about what to expect. They don't need cash like they did then, but I still get a captive feeling.
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I think you should wait. I thought long and hard about it. For me it was the money - 90k is a lot of money - I'm not rich by any stretch. But the fact is this is a car made by a tech company that is just now learning how to make cars. It is not the product of a car company that has been making cars for a long time. It doesn't stack up to an expensive luxury car if you take the exotic drive train out of the equation. And from your comments it sounds like you're not that captivated by the electric part. Just my two cents. I love my S and have no regrets, but I bought a Volt and loved it (still have it), and am all about the electric part, not the luxury part.
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Electricfan said: ?

I think you should wait. I thought long and hard about it. For me it was the money - 90k is a lot of money - I'm not rich by any stretch. But the fact is this is a car made by a tech company that is just now learning how to make cars. It is not the product of a car company that has been making cars for a long time. It doesn't stack up to an expensive luxury car if you take the exotic drive train out of the equation. And from your comments it sounds like you're not that captivated by the electric part. Just my two cents. I love my S and have no regrets, but I bought a Volt and loved it (still have it), and am all about the electric part, not the luxury part.
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This is a really great comment @Electricfan I am, in fact, captivated by the electric part. Very much so. But, I would be moving out of a highly functional semi-luxury SUV (X3) for this. As I read - and even read Elon Musk's self criticism in comments in Europe, I realize that they are (rapidly) figuring out the features, but there is still a gap. No grab handles for passengers for those fast accelerations! No eyelets to tie down in the cargo area - Elon Musk said last week that this was a design oversight. Seats that are being upgraded for comfort next year, no room for sunglasses, etc. in the cabin, etc. And, the 4WD being discussed for next year is a real plus. I would really, really like to buy this car now, but I may well wait until next year. Still thinking and reading.
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pbleic said: ?

This is a really great comment @Electricfan I am, in fact, captivated by the electric part. Very much so. But, I would be moving out of a highly functional semi-luxury SUV (X3) for this. As I read - and even read Elon Musk's self criticism in comments in Europe, I realize that they are (rapidly) figuring out the features, but there is still a gap. No grab handles for passengers for those fast accelerations! No eyelets to tie down in the cargo area - Elon Musk said last week that this was a design oversight. Seats that are being upgraded for comfort next year, no room for sunglasses, etc. in the cabin, etc. And, the 4WD being discussed for next year is a real plus. I would really, really like to buy this car now, but I may well wait until next year. Still thinking and reading.
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Yeah, I think this is something that most people take for granted and don't really THINK about it until it is lost. And if you never used those things on your cars you might not have even thought to add it in. The critical piece is the functional car bit. They got that in flying colors. They also got the "way of the future" with the touch screen and high end electronics in the car. So the other stuff, while less important in terms of overall "carness"... is certainly something they should work to add in the future, and have no doubt that they will.

I have had quite a bit of interaction on the video game design side of development, mostly in assisting in QA stuff (it is a side hobby of mine), and you would be surprised what basic things people just don't consider when they make something. It isn't until someone says... hey where is "this", that they go: Oh yeah! how could I miss THAT?

So if these are things that are deal breakers for you, I totally get that, I only hope that Tesla can capture you up before you hit the point where you don't care about them anymore to even consider it (have seen this happen)... eventually you are likely to lose interest and your potential to get the car would drop to 0. So while I would agree with what others have said about this car not being for everyone, I think that it can get there (or close to it).
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pbleic said: ?

This is a really great comment @Electricfan I am, in fact, captivated by the electric part. Very much so. But, I would be moving out of a highly functional semi-luxury SUV (X3) for this. As I read - and even read Elon Musk's self criticism in comments in Europe, I realize that they are (rapidly) figuring out the features, but there is still a gap. No grab handles for passengers for those fast accelerations! No eyelets to tie down in the cargo area - Elon Musk said last week that this was a design oversight. Seats that are being upgraded for comfort next year, no room for sunglasses, etc. in the cabin, etc. And, the 4WD being discussed for next year is a real plus. I would really, really like to buy this car now, but I may well wait until next year. Still thinking and reading.
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If I were you, I would wait or not buy it at all unless you are ok with all the issues you pointed out. I also agree that 90K is a lot for many and the Model S is definitely NOT a perfect car at this price range. Can Tesla include all the features that are present in other luxury cars? Yes, of course, those are not new inventions, but if it did, the car may not be ready for release even today. More features requires more testings and design integration, not to mention additional costs related to parts, labors, equipment, etc. Elon's ambition was to release the car below 50K after federal credits. I'm sure may features were boycotted after their cost/benefit analysis. You can see that those who purchased the car about a year ago, didn't even had the option to include folding side mirrors, or parking sensor, etc. One may say 90K is a lot money and Tesla should have more than enough margin to cover those little extra costs. This is also a Yes, but remember, a big chunk of the 90K we are paying is going to fund future developments, like the Model X and E, just like all Roadster owners contributed to the development of Model S. We all know how much a Lotus costs, and how much Tesla is selling Roadsters. I could go on and on, but all the above are meaning less to individual buyers. Let's say you are going to replace your car or adding a new one, and willing to spend 90K, pick the one that best fits your needs and budget in the current market. Just my own thoughts and I love my car.
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I find the somewhat austere cabin and dash refreshing in a world of automobiles which are over the top with needless bells and whistles. I also think most S owners place significant value in the environmental aspects of an EV. If one is not similarly motivated, then ICE makes more sense. Regarding upgrades that are in the pipeline, the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. So far the things I missed out on don't seem that important. When that opinion changes, I'll trade up. AWD might hit that threshold for me.
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teslamotorclub

Thứ Hai, 30 tháng 1, 2017

Help! I am getting cold feet part 1

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