Sep 5, 2012
gjunky I decided a week or so ago to cancel my Model S order and I am waiting for a refund of my $5k at this time. My personal reason is that I just can't justify the price of the car with Taxes and Fees. I understand this is my personal opinion and I don't expect other people to agree with it.
However, I doubt I will be the only person so when it comes time to order your Model S and you decide not to go through with it but still would like a Tesla in the future, like I do, post a messages here.
Please post you main reason for cancelling your order
Please post additional reasons you might have had that were perhaps not show stoppers but still affected your decision.
When I cancelled my reservation over the phone, the representative said that they are getting a lot of inquiries for the GEN III. I asked but I wasn't able to put money down on a reservation yet.
- - - Updated - - -
Main Reason
Just couldn't justify the price (with Leather and Air Suspension)
Additional Reasons
* Lack of supercharging for the 40Kw Battery
* Lower Performance of the 40Kw Battery
* Interior storage�
Sep 5, 2012
Zextraterrestrial Hell no!
I can't justifythe price.....how many times are you planning on living this version of your life?
I hope to get a Gen III for my wife. Or an x if money gives itself to me.
You were getting the 40kw?
What was your Res #??�
Sep 5, 2012
Kipernicus You will probably have the same issues with a 40kWh Gen3 (model E?), but perhaps a 60kWh one will be more reasonably priced than a 60kWh Model S.
I was somewhat close to cancelling due to price and external size, but really don't want to wait for Gen3, so am still pushing for Model S.�
Sep 5, 2012
clmason I'm curious for details on your dissatisfaction about interior storage. What is the issue, too much storage?
Additional Reasons
* Lack of supercharging for the 40Kw Battery
* Lower Performance of the 40Kw Battery
* Interior storage[/QUOTE]�
Sep 5, 2012
Kevin Harney Man !!! Why all the flames people ? Geez. He made a decision that is right for him and is still trying to buy a Gen 3. I personally think that Model S is a rip off !! Little to no features and a high price. No where near a LUXURY car IMHO. Advanced and a good step yes. Needed Yes. A Good deal - no. I would be willing to bet if Model S had an ICE that almost NONE of you would be even considering it.�
Sep 5, 2012
Norbert The only flame I see here is yours. Besides, Model S is advertised as a premium sedan with good performance/handling, not as "luxury". All-caps are pointless here.�
Sep 5, 2012
doug It's going to be a bit of a wait for GenIII. Maybe some of the other manufacturers will have something that suits your needs before then?�
Sep 5, 2012
jerry33 Right now GenIII is pie in the sky. I have faith that Elon will pull it off but it's not guaranteed. In the meantime I'll miss out on a minimum of three years electric driving.�
Sep 5, 2012
Jason S Depending on commute and other things, maybe getting an E/Gen III, maybe not. So much can happen in just a few years.�
Sep 5, 2012
neroden I agree with it. The Model S is substantially too expensive. Frankly, batteries aren't cheap enough yet to make a mass-market car (Elon was too optimistic) and Tesla is nickel-and-diming the early adopters in order to pay for the R&D. (I don't mind so much overcharging the early adopters to pay for the R&D -- that is explicitly Tesla's business plan -- but they're not entirely upfront about it.)
I'm still getting a Model S, but I cancelled my Signature. While the final reason I cancelled it was a little obscure and personal (allergies), the Signature was >$10,000 premium for absolutely nothing, as far as I was concerned. Well, actually, for getting a car with build defects, "due bill" item, and punch list items, as we are finding out. But if there are people who are willing to pay through the nose to be first, I can't fault Tesla for taking their money.
I would actually wait for GenIII also, as it would be a more suitable car for me -- except that the existing cars I have access to are beginning to become maintenance nightmares, so I'm beginning to feel some serious pressure to get a new car. And I swore several years ago that I wasn't going to buy a new gas car. And the Leaf is not suitable for me, as I'd still have to use a gas car for mandatory longer trips, and I swore several years ago that I wasn't going to buy a new gas car. And there just isn't anything else out there yet. And there won't be next year, either.
So I decided to spend the money in order to keep my oath and stop swearing about oil changes and gas stations. I'm paying a lot for that. With almost none of the options (I'm getting 85kWh battery so I can drive to the service center, leather for my allergies, tech package for the foglights, air suspension for the dirt roads and snowdrifts), I'm pushing close to $100K after taxes. (Obviously the pricing looks better to people who can claim the federal tax credit, state tax credits, exemption from sales taxes, etc.; I will probably able to claim none of these, though I'm going to see if I can arrange my income to get the federal credit in 2013.)
I will say this: if you do wait for GenIII -- which will not be available until batteries are cheaper, so I would not expect to see it before 2016, probably later -- you may well end up getting another company's car. It appears that most of the manufacturers are still playing games and trying to avoid selling electric cars, but Nissan is serious, and they may have a very nice competitive model out around the same time.�
Sep 6, 2012
gjunky @Zextraterrestrial: My reservation number was P3872 and yes, I was planning on the 40KwH only because it was the cheapest one.
@Kipernicus: I figured I might afford a higher end GENIII and not feel like I am paying a premium for a bottom of the line version. I would like to have access to the Superchargers and have the largest battery if possible
@clmason: Not complaining about the volume of storage but the lack of storage places, like door storage and center console. Purely my opinion of course.
@doug: Yes, the wait for the GENIII will be a long one and this decision was not made easily. I will definitely keep an eye on other cars coming to market also.
@neroden: I agree and have mentioned before that I feel Tesla is nickel-and-diming the early adopters for simple addons. They might want to take a look at Kia/Hyundai because their rate of improving cars is incredible and they tend to include a large number of additional gear. Curious to see if/when they decide to make an all-electric car
I don't agree with everything Tesla does, and why should I have too, but I love the company and what they have accomplished and I am very much looking forward to seeing their GENIII design.�
Sep 6, 2012
Grendal gjunky. In response to your thread question. No. But I came to the same conclusion for myself without an initial reservation.
1. I can barely afford a base level Model S now if I pushed it. It's way more car than I need in size and use.
2. The Gen III should be perfect for my needs. I should be able to get all the upgrades I want including Sig and Performance possibly.
3. 3 to 4 years should allow me to properly prepare for it. I want to get a solar system to cover the charging of the car.
4. Investing in the company is what I can do and have done at this time. Also I'm promoting Tesla and EV's in general where I can.
That's my story...�
Sep 6, 2012
ElSupreme I have thought about it. A BMW 3 series is the size car I want. But I still am planning on getting (assuming my bank agrees) a Model S. When a Gen III comes out I will probably get one for myself, and hand off my S to my wife; I may put a new battery in it also. Hopefully by then she won't continue to think she needs an ICE. And assuming she doesn't take the Model S away from me sooner than that.�
Sep 6, 2012
neroden I will say again that my decision is partly based on my relative need to get a new car. If you find yourself spending a fortune on maintenance or having to buy or lease a new gas car *while you wait* for Gen3, then it may suddenly seem more appropriate to spend the money on model S. If on the other hand you have a car which will run without trouble for another five years, you're in a different position.�
Sep 6, 2012
clmason gjunky - I certainly can sympathize with your perspective. I'm also waiting/hoping for a Gen 3. Though, I think everyone knows that the Model S is pricey and to be an early adopter you have to pay a premium. Looks like this reality hit home for you.
If you had a few million dollars of play money you'd still be on the list. Right? I would be...�
Sep 6, 2012
gjunky @Grendal: I agree with all your points.
Yes, If money was no object, I would order a performance model and not look back.
As it is now, I have a 2006 car with very low mileage (37k) and can drive that car until the GENIII comes out.�
Sep 7, 2012
Grendal I just paid off my current 2007 car with 85K miles on it. I'll be able to pocket that extra money in order to assist in the Gen III purchase.
When I get rid of my current car, in hopefully 2016, it will have the lowest miles of any car I have ever owned. My current record is my last Saturn that I traded in with 190K miles on it. My two previous cars had over 250K on them. I'm very loyal to my cars and I expect to put 300-400K miles on my Tesla.
If the Gen III gets delayed too much I will probably pull the trigger on a used Model S or possibly get a newer Model S 2.0...�
Sep 9, 2012
DavidM By any measure, the Model S is one awesome car. Though, due to the price, it's not for everyone. Gen III will be a much smaller car. I'm done with little bitty cars. Fortunately Model S is a full size car. I think $50K is a fair price for the base Model S. Only slightly more than a Volt, and about the same price as a RAV4 EV. When Gen III comes out, it will either have a $50K price tag with desirable options, or it will have a base price near $40K. If I'm wrong and the base price is near $30K, you won't want it, because you'll be comparing it to the Model S.�
Sep 9, 2012
jerry33 I don't see why you wouldn't want it. It will likely cost $50K-$60K with a good set of options and the performance package, similar to how the Model S costs $100,000 with a good set of options and the performance package. It will be compared to the Model S regardless of the price. Or am I missing something?�
Sep 9, 2012
dpeilow Want to drive electric but holding out for a Gen III? Sounds like a few on this thread need to get a Volt for 3 or 4 years.�
Sep 9, 2012
rcc Yep. The Model S is an expensive car but so is its ICE competitor: the BMW 5-series. It's frighteningly easy to configure a mid-or-high-end 5-series and wind up with a >$65K car. At that price point, $70-80K for a Model S is a rational alternative if you consider the total cost of ownership. A BMW M5 will set you back $92K or more. At that price, the Model S Performance is competitive just from the standpoint of up-front purchase price and the S wins big when you consider total cost of ownership.�
Sep 9, 2012
sublimaze1 Of all the threads on this forum, this one seems to have the most energy. Not that it is good. Not that it is bad. It is what it is.
Now:
This is one of those, "if you don't agree with the price, then disagree and move on" - Any BMW5 or E350 series with the technology that is in this little bag of Silicon Valley Chips is going to hit right at the price that is discussed. You can make an M5 or a Brabus ... or put 22 inch shoes on the German car, and you will up the price. Add the 85 battery, or put a child rear facing seat, and you are going to up the price here as well.
Arguing the price is a place for online blogs and C&D ... but once you have ponied up the nerve and cash, it's over. One must now wait.
I agree with rrc that it is rational, particularly if you consider it as tailored to your own needs. I have four kids. All girls (that's another discussion at another time) ages 17/14/6/3 (that, too, is another discussion). The rear facing row is a nice addition that avoids me having another Armada or a Suburban.
So, again, there are several carefully played angles that Tesla has done to warrant me dropping an after tax $89K (I'm getting the tech package, 85KW, panoramic roof, rear seats, and metallic paint/leather interior). The gadget coefficient is sky high, and the lack of petrol use will certainly not hurt. I calculated $9.56 per charge at current rates at my house.
Again, I certainly won't argue with the cancellation of an order (he had his reasons) just as much as I wouldn't argue with the after tax >$100K member who buys a signature.
I drive a vanilla basic F150 pickup and have a Citroen 2CV in the barn that I use for jollies, so I certainly don't judge.
Regards
WJ
McKinney TX
P188�
Sep 9, 2012
jerry33 That's a fun car, designed so that a farmer could take his eggs to market without breaking them.�
Sep 10, 2012
gjunky I have seriously considered this. I still have to drive a Volt to see what I would think but it sounds like a compromise, especially after driving the Model S....
It might be the right choice though.
@jerry33: But the Model S isn't $50K, It is $57K before tax and any options. The GENIII will be smaller (I think it is an advantage) and everything points at $30K starting price (which of course will be $37K again). So, with options and a large battery pack it will probably be $50-$55k but at that point it will at least be a fully loaded one with additional range and, I am hoping, supercharger access.�
Sep 10, 2012
Kevin Harney Exactly I think you are looking at the price of a LOADED Gen3 and the Base of Model S being similar. That seems to be pretty standard for most car manufacturers right ?�
Sep 10, 2012
gg_got_a_tesla One note of concern about Gen III pricing: the $7.5k federal tax credit could very well be long gone by ~2016/2017 depending on how the country votes this November, Nov 2014 and Nov 2016. Less likely that Tesla will have manufactured 200,000 cars by then...�
Sep 10, 2012
Incredulocious I cancelled my Model S reservation recently as well.
For me, the issue was mostly that the car is just too big for my tastes. I held out this long in hopes that I might eventually feel differently about it but my first reaction behind the wheel on the test drive was woah... this is a big, heavy car! It's certainly quick but it feels darn right huge and heavy. No offense intended and I realize of course that there are plenty of people who like big cars � I certainly see a lot of them on the road � but it's not my thing. I have been pleased to hear several Tesla employees admit (including my test drive copilot) that they also prefer (and drive) smaller cars. I figure this bodes well for future Tesla models like the Gen III � more along the lines of a BMW 3 series or Audi A3/A4.
Ironically, despite the size and weight of the Model S, things are a little cramped inside for me. At 6'4", the non-sunroof version was clearly not going to work and it dismayed me that there was less leg and head room in the back seat of the Model S than in my LEAF. I have to slouch in the backseat of the Model S where I can sit upright in the back of the LEAF. Yeah, that's to be expected given that beautiful roof line while also squeezing a battery pack underneath. The LEAF was obviously designed more for practicality over looks and I do appreciate all the room but it would be great to have a nicer compromise. I was in fact very surprised to find the LEAF to be so big inside � it didn't look it from the photos. (Yeah, I know, I don't sit in the back seat but I'm happy to have all the room for my passengers as well as the ease of tossing my XL-sized mountain bike in back with the seats down.) Fun story: LEAF reservations were already closed when I first had a chance to test drive it back in November of 2010. But I was so impressed with the room and zippiness of the LEAF that I decided I didn't want to find myself locked out and waiting again and reserved a Model S the next day! However, just six months later I found out it was possible to jump the line and pick up an "orphaned" LEAF (abandoned by a reservation holder) � and I've been enjoying it ever since.
Now I'd still love to have the couple hundred mile range, the sportier looks and handling but eventually I decided it's a lot of money to spend on a car that doesn't really suit me. And I would really want to have all wheel drive to have it serve as my only vehicle. I have a gas RAV4 now for road trips and getting up to the mountains without having to deal with snow chains. I think the RAV4 is a great-sized compact SUV � plenty of room, pretty efficient, looks good, etc. If only that new Tesla-powered RAV4 had a larger battery pack and AWD � I'd run down now and buy it and be happy to let go of my wish for a sporty AWD hatchback EV for awhile! (Yeah, I hear ya, but the Model X is just as big or bigger than the Model S � and though I haven't seen it in person, I don't really like the looks of the X.)
So, here's to Tesla's continued and future success and hoping they make the car I want to buy (before somebody else does) as I continue to hold on to my TSLA shares!�
Sep 10, 2012
jerry33 I actually meant $50K as in the base price is in the $50s. Not that it was exactly $50K. Same thing with the $30 GenIII. Sorry about that.�
Sep 10, 2012
DavidM Sorry, what I meant to say was that after seeing and driving the Model S, a stripped down base model Gen III car will pale in comparison. Probably less passenger space, less acceleration, range of 160mi or less, basic features, etc. I think when you see the base model Gen III it will give you more of an appreciation for the base Model S.
I'm imagining the Gen III might look something like the Lexus 200CT hybrid??�
Sep 10, 2012
jerry33 Certainly if they make it with a three box design, like the Model S, that's what will happen. I'm hoping the GenIII will look like it belongs in the 21st century. I would think by the time the GenIII comes out the minimum range would be 250 miles or so and 500+ miles on the high end version.�
Sep 11, 2012
rcc I wouldn't bet on that kind of range for the GenIII. By then, batteries should have around 25% more power storage per cell. Tesla can use that to increase the power in the battery pack or reduce the weight, size and cost of the battery pack.
For the GenIII, my bet is they'll reduce the size, weight and cost of the pack. That along with the smaller car is what might let them hit a $30K price point with a 160 mile range and maintain their margin. They might get more than 160 miles out of the low end pack because of the lower weight of the car. Or not. We'll have to see.
I suspect the GenIII will come in around 3900 lbs.�
Sep 12, 2012
gjunky I would expect there to be a low end ($30K'ish) version with something like a 150 mile range and a high end version of 300 miles or more (really would like to see 400). Just having a GenIII with a 120-150 mile range would IMHO make this car a failure in the market as it would compete with all the other EV cars on the market at that time and the fact that a car like the Leaf is really not selling in the quantities that Tesla is looking for in the GenIII. It needs to have a longer range version and the option to use the Supercharger Network.�
Sep 12, 2012
rcc Completely agree. I think it'll be like the Model S. A $30K, $40K and $50K version. Range goes up as the price goes up. At $50K the range is probably 300 miles or more. And performance should be a bit better than the 85 KwH Model S. 0-60 in ~5.4 seconds, maybe?�
Sep 12, 2012
49er If I recall correctly, the Model S (Whitestar) was supposed to have Roadster range at half the price. So I was expecting a $50K Model S with 300-mile range. Maybe I misunderstood, but I'm not the only based on my readings on this board (I think someone has a brochure from 2009 implying this?). The Model S with Roadster range is priced at $67K before incentives, so that's like 2/3 the price of the Roadster (when it launched, not when Tesla raised prices).
I think GenIII's lowest-priced version will be $45K before government incentives. After federal rebates (which will still be in place after Obama's re-election), the cost will be $37,500 plus options. That version will have a 160-200 mile battery pack (35-40KWh pack which will result in better miles/KWh given the reduced weight). The next battery pack will be $7500 additional, for a $45k car with a 230-270 mile range. Elon will justify this by pointing out this is the same as the "average selling price" of a BMW 3-series (which I'm guessing is much closer to $40k than it is to $30k.) "Better performance, more luxury, more style, less environmental impact, less total cost of ownership than the 3-series". I can see that as Elon's quote in a few years.�
Sep 13, 2012
gjunky I think the lower total cost of ownership went out the door when they started charging $600 per year for maintenance (without the ranger service). I think I paid about $80/year for mine with a service of about $400 every couple years for my ICE. Granted, I don't drive a lot. You have to drive a lot, or have European gas prices..., to make up the difference in gas. Tesla should really reconsider this maintenance scheme, especially for the GenIII.�
Sep 13, 2012
dsm363 It can be $475 per year with Ranger service if you prepay. It's only $600 if you pay each year.�
Sep 17, 2012
gjunky Yes, I realize that but it would still be twice as much as I have been paying for my ICE maintenance and an electric car is supposed to be easier.�
Sep 17, 2012
Grendal It is waayy too early for Gen III service plan pricing. Tesla still has a lot of growing to do. In three years we should have a really good idea of how much it will cost and what you get for that cost. The early adopters are taking the hits for all of us that will come later.
Let me say - thanks early adopters.�
Sep 17, 2012
AndyM While I don't share your position, this is the best forum post I've read all week. Thank you for bringing back sanity and critical reasoning.
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Let me say, thanks to the Roadster owners, the true early adopters.
Compared to the issues they've had to roll through, the Model S experience is relatively luxurious.�
Sep 18, 2012
Rifleman I cancelled my reservation yesterday, and leased a Volt for the next 36 months. I really want the Model S, but the service plan pushed a car that was already a major stretch for my budget into the "unaffordable zone". My plan is to drive the Volt for the years, and to try to be near the front of the line for Gen III.�
Sep 18, 2012
Grendal Sounds like a good plan to me. We'll see who ends up closer to the front, you, gjunky, or me. :biggrin:�
Sep 19, 2012
WhiteKnight I cancelled my Model X reservation and am leasing a Volt instead also waiting for Model X 1.5 or Gen III (or maybe AWD Model S 2.0 - who knows). The stealth price increase with the $600 annual service charge was the straw that broke the camel's back.�
Sep 19, 2012
EchoDelta I recently got a plugin prius while I'm "waiting" for a Model X.
I would definitively recommend those getting 'temporizing cars' to look at the Leaf or Volt. The Prius is nice, but that small battery gets on my nerves as I try to do as much EV-only as I can. I think the Prius is nice but if I could rewind and replay I would have purchased a Volt. Once you plug in it feels ridiculous to go back. (Note- I sold an AMG to get the Prius ... do I miss the accelerator doing something)
Is there anyone here in California that is considering the 100mi Rav4 EV as a viable in-between option?
Not sure how leases of EV vehicles will evolve, with the battery being such a big part of the cost structure of the car. I'm inclined to think cars with significant EVness will depreciate as the market accelerates its competition.�
Sep 20, 2012
ChrisHenryOC I'm with ya on the Prius. I own 2 of the 2nd generation and have been waiting years for Toyota to do a plug in. I actually laughed out loud at the Toyota rep who first told me of the 11 mile EV range on the plug in.
I called my local (Orange County, CA) dealer today and was told it would be quite some time before they have Rav4EVs for test drive.
In the mean time, I'm looking for a Volt to rent for an extended test drive. Having minimal luck right now.
I haven't officially pulled my S reservation yet, but its just a matter of time. Can't wait for the GenIII tho. Too bad we can't transfer the reservations.
-Chris�
Sep 20, 2012
Incredulocious Yeah, I don't get this and wasn't expecting it. My LEAF is certainly *much* cheaper and simpler to maintain than an ICE (check battery, brakes, cabin filter...) � to where it calls into question what will happen to the size of the auto maintenance/service industry over time. Perhaps the future "Mr. Fusion" equipment will take some heavy maintenance? ;-)�
Sep 20, 2012
daniel They were playing this game: Tout the cost of the lowest trim line, and the performance of the highest trim line. I don't think they ever lied outright, but they kept it very obscure that they were talking about different trim lines. Something along the lines of "Price as low as $50,000 and range up to 300 miles on a charge." That language does not say the $50K car goes 300 miles, but it's designed to leave that impression. And of course the price quoted is after the federal tax credit, which they note in tiny print if at all.
Sad to say, the makers of EVs have not always been entirely forthright in their propaganda.�
Sep 21, 2012
VolkerP Check it out here to get an impression yourself:
Tesla Motors - Model S
I made my Model S reservation on that page. While daniel is basically right, I was not left with a wrong impression and didn't feel any missing forthright. It is common for car ads to mention the base model price along with the top-of-line specs. You have to read the fine print, respectively you have to click on the next tab to learn that they plan to offer different ranges.
Only later I learned that EVs are a holy subject to some (called EVangelists) and that they hold higher morale standards to everybody involved in the field of electric transportation :biggrin:�
Sep 21, 2012
SimonJ Absolutely!
I couldn't agree more. I have been reading posts on here for around a week now, and whilst there are many good, worldy and amusing folk on here, I do get the impression that some people have never bought a car or indeed any product before..... really, some of you were "taken in" by "misleading" advertising? I don't think so. Nobody is that naive, well nobody I have ever met anyway. I will say again what I said last week, Tesla is a COMPANY. A company trying to do good things, but they don't owe anyone free maintenance or adverts made by flower-power hippies. If you can't afford a high-end luxury car, then don't buy one! Wait for Gen 3 or whatever you call it. I probably will, I don't think I can run to a Model S at the moment.... but I am not blaming evil Tesla for this, because like most people, I make reasoned decisions based on what I learn. I read that advert a few years ago, and made the assumption that there would be cheaper versions, and more expensive versions etc. because it is a CAR. A CAR made by PEOPLE in a FACTORY. As an aside, building Model S with a (shock horror!!!) profit margin means that "Gen 3" CAN be built. They can't make anything at all if they don't make money. I can't afford a Model S currently, but I am glad other people can.�
Sep 21, 2012
Rifleman The race is on!�
Sep 21, 2012
dsm363 Yep. There were a few people fuming mad saying that Tesla basically lied about the specs and that they could get the 300 mile range car with 0-60 in 5.6 seconds for $50,000. They were a little loose on the wording and placement of an asterisk next to some things in the beginning but nothing sinister.
I'm hoping Tesla has learned a little and to be more clear when it rolls around to Gen III time.�
Sep 21, 2012
mnx jimbakker666, he's the one I remember most vividly! The 5.6 seconds is an issue I suppose since it doesn't say 0-60 as quick as 5.6s...
�
Sep 21, 2012
ElSupreme I've got a FREE phone to sell those people! :biggrin:�
Sep 21, 2012
Grendal This is America and we are advertised to all day long. There have been lots of market research to prove that you MUST advertise in the way that Tesla has done. It's normal. In many ways it's what we all expect. We all recognise when a company is pushing it and trying to trick us. Tesla is just advertising their strongest points out front. There is no intentional sleight of hands going on with them. They are a business that is working hard to become a successful profitable business making a revolutionary product that has never been seen before.
I can understand people getting mad at them. Tesla has gone out of their way to create a "family/friendship" attitude with their customers. When they change the rules, as they must as a new business, it becomes a personal affront. The reality is that they are still a growing business and ultimately they will treat you as a customer, not as a friend. However much we can wish otherwise.�
Sep 23, 2012
daniel I'm not mad at Tesla. I love Tesla and my Roadster. But I do think that in the long run misleading advertising is counterproductive. This is a new kind of product and the general public (people who are not already EV enthusiasts) don't know what to look for or what to expect. Hey, year after year they believe politicians' promises, even though the politicians never keep their promises!
Right now Tesla is making a low-volume product aimed mainly at people who already know about and want electric cars and can afford a high-end product. But their vision for the future is to mass-market a car to the general public. They are initiating a whole new idea of customer-friendly sales and service, and part of that should be open advertising. The important distinctions should be in the same typeface as the hype, not hidden in small print or non-contrasting shades or behind several levels of tabs.
Deceptive advertising is the norm. I'd like to see Tesla buck that norm the same way they're bucking the paradigm that cars need to have an internal-combustion engine.�
Sep 23, 2012
ToddRLockwood Waiting for a Gen III Tesla is a reasonable strategy, but it won't be the same level car as a Model S. It's expected to be in the $30K to $40K range. You probably won't see all the same intriguing features found on the Model S. While the base price of the Model S seems reasonable, most buyers realize that they will need options that push the price up into the $70 to $90K range. If you are not someone who would normally buy a car in that price range, it probably does make sense to wait for Gen III.
Another strategy would be to wait for the 2014 model year of the Model S, giving Tesla some time to iron out the last few details. The risk in this strategy is that the Model S prices could increase. With a reservation number of 11,549 (delivery likely next summer) I'm hoping that any remaining details will be resolved.�
Sep 23, 2012
Grendal The bare minimum Gen III will be either $37,400, if the $7500 tax credit is still around, or less if it isn't. Following the Model S strategy, a loaded Gen III Signature Performance should max out at $75K-ish. I'm hoping to get one for around $55K-ish. I'm likely wanting max battery pack and a few extras.
Smart move. Many early issues will be resolved and most kinks will be worked out. There should be no recalls and a lot of the software and interface will be fine tuned.
If the profit margins are there as Elon has repeatedly said they are then I don't see any price increases in the Model S's future. There are hopefully lots of people out there just waiting on you early adopters to prove the value of the platform before they jump in and buy. I'd say 10K are needed for 2013 and by 2014 I'd like to see 25K more.�
Sep 24, 2012
daniel Not everybody likes "features." At plug-in day yesterday there was a fellow who drives an iMiev. He loves it. He considered a Leaf, but preferred the less-featured, and therefore less-expensive car. I much prefer a simpler car. I want electric propulsion, and I want comfort. Good handling is nice, and some sort of sound system is nice. I don't need the fancy do-dads.�
Sep 24, 2012
ElSupreme Sounds like me I turned down a replacement Jetta TDI (after my Jetta TDI was totaled) because it had a sunroof and navigation system, and the base price was already substantially increased from when I purchased one 18 months prior. I ended up getting a GTI (which to be fair is a upgraded Sport Golf), and well it has exactly zero options on it. I generally do not like navigation systems, they don't really know local roads and generally give you a decent route, not a good one, but generally also not a bad one.
My wife hates it when she is using her Garmin while I am in the car, because I constantly bring up alternate routes that are better, or less likely to have bad traffic (signals).�
Sep 24, 2012
gjunky
I agree, I am hoping for a GENIII with the largest battery pack and perhaps a couple options AND supercharger access for around $50k
That is funny. I have a GTI too and I love the car but because it is one of the upper level Golfs, there are hardly any options left except for the NAV.�
Sep 24, 2012
Grendal I have the same problem. I am weird. I almost have eidetic memory for knowing where I am and how to get to where I need to go. It's next to impossible to get me lost. The whole Garmin/Google Maps thing baffles me. It drives my wife batty that I'm confident of how to get to places.
I'm hoping the touchscreen for the Gen III is much smaller.�
Sep 24, 2012
Dr Chill I for one canceled mostly due to the car's heft, but the Gen III may actually be a better fit for us. I am also waiting to see what Audi has to offer with these e-trons we are seeing in the press. In my opinion, Audi is making the best cars right now. Despite this great initial effort by Tesla, their manufacturing has a long way to go to get to the level of VAG.�
Sep 24, 2012
Grendal Unless Audi comes up with some amazing battery technology, the e-trons are going to be falling short over Tesla in the area that counts the most - the drive train. Given a choice, I'd wait for Tesla to improve their interiors and manufacturing ability than to wait for Audi to be anywhere near Tesla in the area of battery pack, PEM, and electric motors.
That's just my opinion.�
Sep 24, 2012
AnOutsider I'd agree with this... We own 3 Audis and I love them for the most part, but they're not pushing the EV envelope.�
Sep 25, 2012
gjunky Don't underestimate the engineering power of VAG. It might take them a few more years but when they decide to focus on something, and that something is electric cars, they will eventually get it right. This will include the drive train.
I am just not sure if other manufacturers will get the long distance driving difference that Tesla is providing, especially with the supercharger network they just announced. A few years from now, just in time for GenIII, a Tesla with a larger battery pack (not the 40KwH) will truly be able to drive long distances when needed. Combining the wonderful driving characteristics of an EV with a way for it to be your only car, too me, is amazing.�
Sep 25, 2012
jerry33 Not until their sales start hurting and then it will be too late. That's what happened with tires, and it's likely to happen with EVs as well.�
Sep 26, 2012
KenEE Jerry33, Maybe OT, but can you expand on your tires analogy? Did someone innovate in the tire industry and take a chunk of business from the others? Not knowing the tire industry, I'm not sure i get you're exact point, but it sounds very interesting.�
Sep 26, 2012
Robert.Boston @KenEE: jerry33 posted an interesting summary of the bias/radial tire transition over HERE.�
Sep 26, 2012
CarbonTax Thought I was the only guy who traded in an AMG to get a Prius (2006)...
Testdrove a Volt today...�
Sep 26, 2012
daniel I love my Garmin Nuvi which lives in the Prius. I don't much care for the Alpine unit in the Roadster. I use NAV in town to get me the last part of the way when I don't know the area. Spokane has some areas with convoluted streets. Then I use it to get me out of such areas and back to the main roads. It's a life-saver for me. I also use it on road trips, where I find that for the most part it takes me the best route. (The Garmin. I don't take long road trips in the Roadster.)
The biggest problem is that sometimes a road forks, and it's not clear which is the principal road, and the NAV doesn't make it clear because it thinks of it as an unimportant side road. If I take the wrong one I have to turn around. But at least it tells me when I'm off the route.
I find that a NAV unit is much better for me than trying to read a map while driving!
On a road trip I'll usually plot a route on MapQuest first, then let the NAV guide me. If it wants to take me a different route than MapQuest I'll make my own decision between the two, and if I take the MQ route, the NAV will adjust pretty quickly, after briefly telling me to turn around.�
Jun 5, 2013
igotzzoom I almost bought a Volt, but at the time, the only way I could swing the price was the lease option, which at the time also looked like a no-go because current circumstances made it look like I'd be putting about 35,000 miles a year on the car. Circumstances have changed since then, and I've barely put 30,000 miles on my car in two years, so I probably could have done it. I drove the Volt at the L.A. auto show, and was reasonably impressed with it. Is it a perfect car? No. There are a lot of compromises in it, mainly involving the battery and what it does to interior packaging, but it's a valiant effort. I am holding out for the Gen III. By 2016, I'll at least be considering the prospect of a new car. If it has the styling and features I'm looking for, and it's within my budget, it has an excellent chance of being my next car.�
Jul 2, 2013
Skotty For me, there is a race going on between my savings account and Gen 3 reaching production. The finish line is around 2016. If Gen 3 is out, it will likely win. If not, either an S or X will win.�
Jul 2, 2013
Grendal If you read early in this thread, I was set on a Gen III. I'd still rather have a Gen III but the new timetable just doesn't work for me. I want to get my Tesla in 2015. Since the only sedan that will be around at that time is the Mode S then I'll be buying it.
The only thing stopping me then will be very very strong indications of when the Gen III will arrive or some personal tragedy has happened.�
Jul 8, 2013
AustinPowers Intriguing features such as?
Sorry, but apart from the funky doorhandles and a touchscreen that is larger than in other cars, what intriguing features does the S offer?
Missing interior storage? No grab handles? No usable center console? Trunk lighting that doesn't really light anything? No lights on the vanity mirrors? No power-folding mirrors on a car the size of a cruise ship?
True, those (and some other) ARE intriguing features. But I certainly won't miss them if Gen III doesn't have any of them.
But sarcasm aside, I agree with many who want to wait for Gen III either because of the lower price point or the smaller size. I would have loved the S at around 50 to 60K Euro, with lower maintenance costs than an ICE, as advertised. But now that I know that both the starting price with a few necessary options (necessary as in "necessary if you want a good resale value later") will be through the roof and the maintenance will be far more expensive than on my current ICE car, I too am contemplating waiting for Gen III instead. And in the meantime getting a PHEV or REEV.�
Jul 9, 2013
igotzzoom For me:
Non-essential features:
- "Magic" door handles
- Ginormous touch screen (although I hope it's decent-sized)
- 0-60 in less than 5 seconds
- Carbon fiber and/or real aluminum trim
Essential features:
- All-LED lighting throughout (no incandescents anywhere!)
- 200+ mile range
- 0-60 in 6 flat or less
- Comfortable room for four adults
- Seamless integration with smartphones (this may seem like a "duh!" thing, but you'd be surprised by how many cars don't play well with common smartphones)
"Cool to have" features:
- Autonomous parking (i.e. it literally parks itself with the driver outside of the vehicle)
- Adaptive cruise control
- Integrated "real time" dashcam and/or rear view capture (i.e. 24-hour continuous loop, capture function for accident reporting. Insurance discount?)
- Auto-valet (essentially the inverse of Autonomous parking. If you forgot where you parked, or don't feel like walking all the way back to your car (bad weather, arms full with kids/groceries/clothes) will drive up to you "curbside"
- Tesla "Find a Friend" Built-in app that locates other Tesla/Gen-III owners nearby (opt-in by owners, of course)
What are your guys' thoughts?�
Jul 9, 2013
Grendal
- "Magic" door handles While not necessary - they are aero and a Tesla trademark.
- Ginormous touch screen (although I hope it's decent-sized) Same - half the size would work for me.
- 0-60 in less than 5 seconds Same
- Carbon fiber and/or real aluminum trim Should be an option for those wiling to pay for it.
Essential features:
- All-LED lighting throughout (no incandescents anywhere!) Headlights can be whatever works best.
- 200+ mile range Already a given according to Elon.
- 0-60 in 6 flat or less Very likely and definitely an option for those that want more.
- Comfortable room for four adults No problem there.
- Seamless integration with smartphones (this may seem like a "duh!" thing, but you'd be surprised by how many cars don't play well with common smartphones) Not a big deal for me but I expect it is for almost everyone else - Tesla will have it.
- Autonomous parking (i.e. it literally parks itself with the driver outside of the vehicle) Cute and cool. Maybe a high end option?
- Adaptive cruise control Personally could care less. I like driving. An option for sure.
- Integrated "real time" dashcam and/or rear view capture (i.e. 24-hour continuous loop, capture function for accident reporting. Insurance discount?) Why not?
- Auto-valet (essentially the inverse of Autonomous parking. If you forgot where you parked, or don't feel like walking all the way back to your car (bad weather, arms full with kids/groceries/clothes) will drive up to you "curbside" Cute and cool but probably not.
- Tesla "Find a Friend" Built-in app that locates other Tesla/Gen-III owners nearby (opt-in by owners, of course) Social car networking. Great idea.
Good stuff. Keep it coming.�
Jul 9, 2013
AustinPowers +1 on almost every point, except for the 0-60 times and auto valet, which don't matter to me very much.�
Jul 12, 2013
timf Does anyone else think Tesla started talking about Gen III way too early and it may be costing them sales?
I'm faced with the dilemma that I will need a new car when my current lease expires next March as there's no way I'm keeping a 20 MPG CUV. I've worked all the numbers and could potentially afford a Model S, but knowing that if I take out a 3 year lease on a PHEV instead and Gen III would theoretically be waiting for me at the end, I would be saving a lot of money in the short term and long term. Of course the trade off is nothing really compares to Tesla in terms of performance, range, and cargo space.
If I didn't know there was a less expensive option on the horizon (and have faith that Elon and Tesla will deliver) the thinking might be different, with the presumption that the Model S would cost even more in the future so I might as well get in now. But since there is, it makes the decision much more prudent to wait.�
Jul 13, 2013
blakegallagher I am sure they were aware that they would defer some sales .... but It does not seem to matter. As they are reserving faster than they can build them and all signs point to this continuing at least into next year when they double production, I think having thousands of people preparing for the Gen 3 is a great thing .... I for one will be getting one .... unless they announce that the smaller SUV will be out shortly after their Gen 3 .... lol�
Jul 13, 2013
joer00 You are absolutely right ! I would be willing to bet that no Arline would even consider the new Boeing 787 Dreamliner if it would be driven by props and piston engines.�
Apr 12, 2016
tdelta1000 Is this question still relevant now that the 3 has come out of hiding?�
Apr 12, 2016
NoPetrolDream Not for me, as Model S, as amazing as that car is, is out of my price range. Model 3 is not cheap but I have a feeling that even at base price it will have a lot of value built in, attracting people like me who will want to stretch a bit to get it.�
Apr 12, 2016
AudubonB Well, seeing that the OP created this post in Sept of 2012 I'm astonished you were able to resurrect this long-somnolent thread! That's certainly been a long wait given your cancel, gjunky, although your sig-line shows you liked what you saw with the Model X.�
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