Thứ Ba, 31 tháng 1, 2017

Ford: "We can build a car like Model S" part 1

  • Oct 24, 2014
    Chickenlittle
    on cc today in response to question, ford has bought a model s and driven it. they took it apart and put it back together and drove it again. they are confident that they can build it. thought this was funny. issue isnt can you build it but if you can design and engineer one. their stating that it drove again seemed funny. a successful experiment in model kit building
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  • Oct 24, 2014
    RobStark
    I am sure Ford can build something like a Mercedes S-550 plug-in or Ferrari LaFerrari. So can the Chinese OEMs.


    But the question is how close,how many, and at what price.
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  • Oct 24, 2014
    anticitizen13.7
    http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2014/10/24/ford-tesla/17827533/

    Not much detail. The Ford CEO said the company is "considering" building a Tesla-like automobile. This is like the previous statements by GM that they would form a committee to evaluate Tesla. It could be months or years before Ford makes a decision, and then they would have to develop an EV platform from scratch (assuming they don't attempt to shoehorn an electric powertrain onto a Fusion platform).

    Ford would still face the steep obstacle of battery costs, and lack of a Supercharger network.

    Seems to me like Ford is just trying to cover its bases with investors because they don't want to appear oblivious to the competition. As a general matter, car companies almost always buy and disassemble competing vehicles. I'm sure Ford has purchased, taken apart, and driven everything from a Toyota Yaris to a Mercedes S class and beyond.
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  • Oct 24, 2014
    RobStark
    A couple of months ago the Ford CEO said they were not in the dedicated electric vehicle platform business. :wink:
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  • Oct 24, 2014
    aznt1217
    Wow AMAZING. Someone should take him to the LEGO store, because that's the "expertise" he described
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  • Oct 24, 2014
    TexasEV
    Another obstacle is they would have to be sold at Ford dealers.
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  • Oct 24, 2014
    yobigd20
  • Oct 24, 2014
    dha
    Can they write all the software and firmware too?

    Idiots.
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  • Oct 24, 2014
    richkae
    I don't think the lack of a Supercharger network is a big deal. If they were serious they could spend money and catch up in less than a year.
    They could be caught up before they started delivering cars.
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  • Oct 24, 2014
    ElSupreme
    Well Ford has spent close to zero marketing the Focus Electric. I have a few friends with LEAFs and they had no idea that Ford sold an electric vehicle. I think Ford only wants to sell a couple hundred every month, keep volume low until they are sure their EV is solid.
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  • Oct 24, 2014
    RiverBrick
    Last night there were CARB-ZEV hearings in California. As usual, most of the manufacturers pleaded that ZEV regulations ought to be pushed back (in some cases as long as eight years) or diluted (for instance, having a 11-mile PHEV count as much as a 40-mile one).

    One of their arguments was that they CANNOT build a reasonable ZEV without investing massive amounts of time and money. I almost shed a tear.
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  • Oct 24, 2014
    RobStark
    Last night CARB's meeting was about the intermediate sized OEMs.

    Like Subaru,Mazda,Mitsubishi,Jaguar Land Rover, Mercedes,BMW etc

    At least Mitsu has the 30 AER Outlander PHEV and Mercedes has the B-Class, BMW the i3, Volvo the XC90

    The ones that are really screwed are Subaru,Mazda, and Jaguar Land Rover.
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  • Oct 24, 2014
    adiggs
    I replied in the News thread, but I think my comment is more applicable to the Investors forum.


    It's telling to me that a CEO of a company would spend even 1 second in a quarterly conference call discussing company performance, to talk about how the CEO's company could do something similar to what some competitor is doing if they wanted to, but don't (want to that is).

    The only competitor / competition that a CEO should be talking about during a conference call is somebody that you compete with broadly and deeply. Intel and AMD, Apple and Samsung, Ford and GM. And only to talk about how existing products compare better and worse.

    Talking about a pipsqueak competitor, at least based on unit volume, who has a product that you have nothing like, just emphasized what you can't do in the first place. Saying you can disassemble and reassemble it strongly suggests that Ford employs mechanics and engineers. That's a relief.

    More completely, either Tesla is a full competitor of Ford's, in which case the air time is reasonable. Also in this case, the comments made by Ford's CEO emphasizes what Ford doesn't do and Tesla does, instead of emphasizing what Ford does and Tesla doesn't (offer a full range of cars, cheap to expensive, range of use cases).

    Or Tesla isn't really a competitor of Ford's (which I believe to be the case today), in which case Ford's CEO should spend exactly as much time talking about Tesla as they talk about Ferrari or any other boutique manufacturer that isn't really a competitor of Ford's. In this case, an EV related question provides an opportunity to talk about the overall scale of EV's to Ford's overall business, or where the CEO sees the EV contribution to the product mix in the future, and on and on. But the one thing Ford's CEO doesn't do, period, is talk about how the company could compete with some pipsqueak if they felt like it, but just doesn't feel like it.


    Not that I'm a CEO, and not that I've ever done a quarterly conference call, but my immediate thought is to figure out how I'd have turned the question into one about EV's in general, and from there into a discussion of what Ford products there are, what Ford IS actually doing, and what Ford DOES actually have in the work and is ready to talk about.

    This comment makes me happy I'm not an investor in Ford - as a shareholder, hearing my CEO talk this way would make me crazy. (Or sell).
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  • Oct 24, 2014
    TEG
  • Oct 24, 2014
    wiztecy
    Its their crappy dealer network. Before buying my Roadster I was in the market for an electric vehicle, called the San Jose Ford dealer which was the #1 dealer for the Electric Ford Focus in the country. They said they didn't have any in for me to look at at the time, but then said, how about a nice gas Focus. I said NO, I don't want Gas. They said they'll call me when they get them in. Did I get a call ever, No! Did I get spam on sales for their Gas Ford Focus, YES! I never got an email for an Electric Ford Focus. Ever. After that I blocked them. Dealers suck!

    And "they" wonder why they have poor sales!
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  • Oct 24, 2014
    Chickenlittle
    Agree, can be joined. I wouldn't have started this thread if the other one was posted first
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  • Oct 25, 2014
    EnergyMax
    The ship has sailed for Ford. The time for them to show their competitive model prototype, and announce when it would go on sale was Summer, 2013; when Tesla was solidifying its stock price from the rocket up. Now Tesla is the only game in town, and F is so far behind, it is sad.
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  • Oct 25, 2014
    jeff_adams
    Can't wait to see Ford's reaction when Tesla builds a pickup that eats the F-150's lunch.
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  • Oct 25, 2014
    David99
    Taking a car apart and analyzing it is common practice in the car industry. All manufacturers do that. Nothing unique here. Ford can build a Model S type car if they really wanted it. Just a mater if they want to commit to spending the money on developing it. So far none of the big players showed any interest as they are selling quite well doing their ICE cars. Why spend a lot of money on a product that has little potential to sell. Tesla's sales numbers are still peanuts compared to ICE cars. What makes Ford and the others nervous is how much attention and positive reaction Tesla is getting from the public.
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  • Oct 25, 2014
    Jackl1956
    Tesla is dominating the world's automotive media. The CEO of nearly every major car manufacturer mentions Tesla every time they are interviewed. Tesla's sales numbers may be small, but they are casting a very long shadow.
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  • Oct 25, 2014
    Grendal
    For better and worse. The media attention is definitely a double edged sword as evidenced by the overblown fire scare.

    I personally look at this as the old saying goes: "Any Press is Good Press". I think the overblown fire scare is a good example of this. There are still a few that think a Model S is a fire hazard but the end result is that there was a positive effect on the car and the company for the general public.

    And back the topic at hand, IMO by the time that Ford creates a reasonably competitive car against Tesla that Tesla will have already built their next generation car that will be far superior to the Ford car. They could build a competitive car today but how much would that car cost? Twice as much at least.
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  • Oct 25, 2014
    David99
    Of course Ford wouldn't build a car that matches the specs of a car that came out 2 years ago like the Model S. If they are serious, they will of course set the bar for the future, not the past. That's what every modern high tech manufacturer does. I wouldn't underestimate the big players in the car industry. They have massive resources and a huge customer base that is brand loyal.
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  • Oct 25, 2014
    Grendal
    I would say to Ford, show me, don't tell me. Until they actually build anything that is remotely close to what the Model S has shown then I don't care how big a company they are. It is all talk. In a purely logistics sense, where is Ford going to get the batteries to power their car? Those automotive grade batteries don't just spontaneously create themselves. It took Tesla years to build up to their current level and it is still a sticking point in their production process.
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  • Oct 25, 2014
    sperrysburg
    Even if major OEMs manufactured a high mileage EV, I think the Supercharger network is a huge commercial advantage for Tesla.
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  • Oct 25, 2014
    Seven7
    Well tell them to go ahead and build it then, just my opinion here but I think many Americans and others have had their fill of the big three's customer service (or whatever you want to call it)
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  • Oct 25, 2014
    Jackl1956
    The mission of Tesla Motors is to advance the electrification of transportation. If Ford builds a car like the Model S it would be a great thing.

    Just got off the 405 in Los Angeles.......there are millions of cars out there. We are in a target rich environment. Competition should be the last thing on anyone's mind.
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  • Oct 25, 2014
    inottawa
    Can't they just make a nice big console version of Ford Sync? <sarcasm>That's the best user interface I've ever experienced in a car!</sarcasm>
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  • Oct 25, 2014
    capt601
    Exaclty!! What others can't seem to figure out is he high speed charging network is a necessity or it simply remains a city EV car. the superchargers are Teslas biggest game changer and they are "giving" away free high speed charging.
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  • Oct 25, 2014
    Mr X
    The Model S alone is better than every car Ford has ever made... im sure Ford can make a better car... LOL
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  • Oct 25, 2014
    Canuck
    I was in the mall today with my kids and we checked out the crowded Apple store. Then later we walked by a booth Microsoft had set up in the middle of the mall with their tablets and phones. I looked at them with my kids who had no interest in them at all and didn't even know what they were. I told them at one time (when my 17 year old was born) Microsoft had to bail out Apple.

    Long story short, things change fast. I'd never count any company out - in 20 years from now I wouldn't be surprised if Ford was making a great electric vehicle that rivals, or is better than,Tesla. Tesla makes the best electric vehicle now - but no one stays on top forever. And that's a good thing, in my opinion. We humans are just very short sighted.
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  • Oct 25, 2014
    CHG-ON
    I'm very sad about Ford. I am a fan of that company because without Henry Ford, where would manufacturing be today? Well, probably just the same. But I guess I'm a romantic. He changed our world completely. It really pisses me off that American auto companies seem to have every excuse in the book as to why they can not or will not do something and no answers as to what they really could do. Yes, Ford and GM have improved their quality and their product offerings dramatically in response to extreme international competition (I leave Chrysler off the list because I think their products are crap-sorry to offend anybody, but I do). But for companies that have more resources and political clout available to them than any other auto companies on whole damn planet, there is no excuse for their middling products that are simply OK or good. I really do think it's disgraceful and a terrible shame. Show me ONE person in either company who has the true fire to build a truly world beating car (maybe the Corvette, but quality still is not on par with it's competitors). If they are there, they are squashed by the corporate, political gamesmanship that does nothing more than protect the status quo of low cost inferior product and gild their lillies.

    Remember when "Cadillac" was used as a term to refer to the very best in the world? They have come back from the hideous days of the 70's, 80's, 90's and 00's. But dollar for dollar, would you buy a Cadillac over a BMW, Infiniti, Audi, Mercedes, TESLA? Not me. Would GM drive to my house and swap out my car at a moment's notice when something goes wrong, give me the same model as a loaner for as long as it takes to repair my issue, charge me NOTHING and then call to make sure that everything is OK during AND after the the repair and the car is returned?

    Nope.

    Unfortunately, we Americans are suckers and actually buy this crap and are thankful that we can. Terribly unfortunate in my opinion.

    Sorry for the rant.
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  • Oct 26, 2014
    Robert.Boston
    Moderator's Note

    I made a slight adjustment to the thread title to better reflect the topic (and to correct capitalization).
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  • Oct 26, 2014
    anticitizen13.7
    I think it's true that no one should ever be counted out, but Apple was an exceptional case.

    Apple had Steve Jobs, a charismatic (some say crazy and awful) visionary who was willing to push the envelope. He brought NeXT to Apple at a time when Apple's OS development was floundering. He led innovation in digital music, electronics retail, mobile phones, and tablets.

    Apple had to re-boot from almost nothing at a point when established PC makers and Microsoft dominated the computing world. Ford has generally done well in the past few years. It's an establishment company and does not have a Jobs-like leader or legions of diehard fans willing to camp out or wait extraordinarily long times for its products. I wouldn't discount Ford entirely, but they are no Apple.
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  • Oct 26, 2014
    wart
    I've been a Ford guy all my life. My earliest automotive memories are of riding in my Dad's '67 Mustang, and today I drive a Mustang of my own. And I even hold a few shares of F (though I own a lot more TSLA). So nothing would make me happier than to see Ford get serious about electric cars. But I'm not convinced they are ready to take that plunge. For legacy manufacturers it's just too hard to write off their huge investments in ICE technology. And in the era of "platform sharing" they aren't going to design a unique chassis to accommodate a large battery pack the way Tesla did. So Ford will continue to build compromised EV's like the Focus Electric.

    It's really going to be interesting to see what happens after the Model 3 is out. As long as Teslas cost $80k plus, it's easy for naysayers to say it's an expensive niche. But with fuel cost savings the TCO of the Model 3 ought to be pretty close to that of a lot of mainstream midsize sedans. If Tesla has the ability to build and sell 100k Model 3's in about 2018 or 2019 it's going to really get some people's attention.

    Several people have mentioned the importance of the Supercharger network. Hasn't Tesla stated they are willing to share Supercharger technology, along with other patents? It would require some investment but Ford/GM/BMW/etc. wouldn't have to start from scratch like Tesla did.

    I believe Ford and other manufacturers have the technological ability to build a car like Model S. What remains to be seen is whether they have the financial or political ability.
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  • Oct 26, 2014
    mspohr
    I don't think they even have the technical skills to build an EV. They have lots of ICE skills but are clueless about EVs. They would need to start a skunkworks project from scratch to build a real EV.
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  • Oct 26, 2014
    xhawk101
    This. Will likely be the tipping point. When Joe or Jane Six Pack realizes their gas truck has a better alternative - then conversion from ICE to electric avalanche will be complete.
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  • Oct 26, 2014
    ElSupreme
    They already do make a "REAL" EV. It's called the Focus Electric and is quite good!
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  • Oct 26, 2014
    SmartElectric
    Fixed that for you...

    Ford does not produce the batteries, battery pack, motor, inverter or other parts of the Focus EV.
    In contrast, Tesla manufacturers everything but the batteries from the list above.

    Ford has yet to show they are anywhere near the equal of Tesla on that front.
    Outsourcing the prime cost drivers of an EV like Ford does is not a recipe for long term success.
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  • Oct 26, 2014
    Saghost
    There's no black magic in the Model S, just a lot of carefully chosen trade-offs. I don't think there's any question that Ford, or GM, or most other automakers could build a car that's the technical equivalent of the Model S - especially since Tesla chose to open up their own patents.

    Whether they could do it for a similar price and make a profit, whether they could make a better car, and whether they'd be motivated to make such a car in the first place are all much harder questions to answer - and I suspect the answer to most of them is no.
    Walter
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  • Oct 26, 2014
    green1
    Actually it's better than that. When I've run the numbers, the Model 3 will completely pay for itself in fuel and maintenance savings within about 5-10 years (maybe sooner) when compared to most mid-sized sedans, not just match the cost of the other car, You'll save the full purchase price of the vehicle just in your fuel and maintenance savings.
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  • Oct 26, 2014
    physicsfita
    I think they do -- I know several of their engineers, and they are quite talented. I think their problems lie more with their corporate culture. As an example, in 2007 at a neighborhood potluck, after telling her I had just bought a Prius, a Ford engineer explained to me how they had carefully analyzed hybrids and determined that they were pointless because every use case could be better met with an existing vehicle, and they had decided not to pursue them. I explained to her that that may be correct, but customers were demanding them, and Ford could stand to make money satisfying that demand. I was met with a puzzled deer-in-the-headlights look, followed by her getting very interested in her plate of food. :frown:
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  • Oct 26, 2014
    atang
    I explained to her that that may be correct, but customers were demanding them, and Ford could stand to make money satisfying that demand. I was met with a puzzled deer-in-the-headlights look, followed by her getting very interested in her plate of food. :frown:[/QUOTE]

    Great story. Thank you!
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  • Oct 26, 2014
    wart
    Thanks for that story. Are you certain of the timing? The Escape Hybrid went on sale in 2005, and the first Fusion Hybrid in 2009. Maybe those were just "compliance cars?" Though I'm pretty certain the current Fusion and C-Max hybrids are available nationwide.
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  • Oct 26, 2014
    physicsfita
    I'm sure that's the year since my Prius is a 2007. I don't recall seeing the Escape Hybrid in Michigan (a non-CARB state), so it may have been a compliance vehicle (heck, it was almost impossible to get a Prius in MI much before 2007!). She may have just been speaking for her group...
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  • Oct 26, 2014
    ggr
    Sorry to be pedantic, but terminology is important. Tesla does manufacture the batteries. What they don't manufacture is the cells that go into the battery.
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  • Oct 26, 2014
    ToddRLockwood
    The Ford GT shows what Ford is capable of when they put their minds to it. Granted, the GT was based on traditional technologies, but the drive train and suspension are pretty impressive for a company that doesn't produce high-end automobiles.

    I have to wonder, though, when Ford's engineers "took apart" their Model S, did they have any inkling of the central role software plays in this vehicle?
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  • Oct 26, 2014
    CHG-ON
    i completely agree with what you have written. If there is any American auto company that can turn the tide, it is Ford. And I thank Alan Mullally for that. He had the vision and the fire. Much harder for him to turn the tide than Steve because he wasn't the founder. But what he has done is truly remarkable (with no bailout). I do have high hopes for Ford and believe in them (today). With Alan leaving, I am saddened. I hope that Wm C Ford can keep that alive.
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  • Oct 26, 2014
    TSLAopt
    I commend Ford for not needing to be bailed out. however, such a large company will never be nimble enough to keep up with such a successful disruptor like Tesla. Ford is in big trouble, but I see GM going down first while Ford downsizes itself over time.
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  • Oct 26, 2014
    SmartElectric
    Tesla manufactures the battery modules, and of course the battery pack. Panasonic manufactures the battery cells as you note. However we talk about it, the pack is not a "battery", it is a package (pack) of batteries.

    I don't care who's right, but I wasn't wrong. ;-)
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  • Oct 26, 2014
    jeff_adams
    Ford would have gone bankrupt if not for their participation in the same DOT loan program that Tesla paid back (Ford is still making payments). Their hybrid development program saved them.

    Sadly for GM, they didn't use those available loans to continue to evolve the EV-1. I recall reading an article where Elon said he got involved with Tesla after seeing GM smash their EV-1 fleet. It ticked him off enough to invest in Tesla Motors. The rest is automotive history.
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  • Oct 26, 2014
    Lloyd
    Did you say LaFerrari! Got a chance to see a 2 million $ hybrid up close yesterday!!

    IMG_0752.jpg
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  • Oct 26, 2014
    Canuck
    For that price, do you also get the cloth to prevent marks from the cord while charging?
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  • Oct 27, 2014
    Auzie
    Whoa

    I just had to repost the picture, one is not enough for that beauty

    - - - Updated - - -

    Business life cycle in play here. Tesla is growing, so one day it will have a grip on the market but it will also be as slow as Ford. I wonder what kind of future business will disrupt Tesla.

    Until that future happens, we can make lots of money on Tesla disruption :smile:

    I am so pleased to see that other car makers are chasing Tesla, not the other way around. Tesla is setting the standard that others are trying to reach
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  • Oct 27, 2014
    ElSupreme
    No Ford does not produce the cells LG Chem does that (and Tesla buys Panasonic Cells). They do produce the battery (in cooperation with LG Chem) itself. They do purchase the Motor/Inverter but those are not very hard to make yourself. There isn't really a dark art of electric motor production, or VFD design. In my industry electric motors are basically commodities.

    Have you driven a FFE? I drive one pretty much every day. There are plenty of things that Ford has done better than Tesla. Their energy display is much more user friendly (Tesla's static Wh/mi on the display being the lone exception). And LOTS of the actual CAR are so much better than the Tesla. And considering the FFE is $30k and the Model S is $80k Tesla isn't quite there yet.


    Now I think Tesla can get the car stuff correct faster than most of the other auto manufacturers get their EV drives as refined. But once you get a 'good enough' EV drive. The car bits become the deciding factor in a car purchase. If Ford can ease the torque steer, and wheel spin at low speeds. Their EV drive will be at the 'good enough' stage.
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  • Oct 27, 2014
    austinEV
    One other thing to consider. I think that the big automakers are reluctant to make a good, attractive EV. If they have a good design it will go to a high-volume ICE model instead. They will take designs out of the dustbin, like boxy, dorky, or even unpractically cool like the BWM i8. A design like the Model S, a good compromise of aesthetics and function would never go to an EV.
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  • Oct 27, 2014
    mspohr
    Electric motors may be commodities if you're running a factory. However, if you're building electric cars, there is a lot of real engineering necessary. An interesting part of the Elon Musk interview at the MIT event a few days ago... A question was asked about how Tesla was able to get such a high power to weight ratio which is much higher than standard industrial motors. Musk went into a rather detailed answer, part of which was how they tackled the problem of keeping the motor from overheating by using coaxial cooling of the rotor.
    Your detailing of the problems with the Ford (torque steer, and wheel spin at low speeds) are a few other problems that take real EV engineers, not ICE car engineers. Ford is an ICE car company and all the best engineering and marketing will go into ICE cars. EVs from Ford may get to the point of "good enough" but will never excel. (Something about old dogs and new tricks.)
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  • Oct 27, 2014
    ElSupreme
    Uh ... Torque steer is a power transmission problem, not a power generation problem. Eliminated by going to RWD, or most likely buiding a platform designed to take a EV drive system. It really has nothing to do with the electric motor. And Tesla hasn't solved this problem either, as RWD eliminates torque steer.

    And wheelspin at low speeds is partly due to weight balance, the front differential, and crap OEM tries. All of which have no bearing on the drive unit. Sure some slight traction control, and better low speed torque mapping could help, but just as much if not more is really car engineering. Again Tesla isn't fighting this battle either due to choosing RWD.

    As far as 'good enough' and not excelling Ford has a better backup camera. Better energy displays, and driver information. Much better navigation setup, much better general ergonomics, much better headlamps, better brights, more comfortable seats, higher quality floor mats, much better interior lighting, a place to put sunglasses, much better fan control on auto climate, quieter AC compressor, much better windshield washer nozzles, and a rear parcel shelf that gets lifted with the tailgate.

    It's easy to say Tesla used some special engineering to get a more power dense electric motor, than an industrial motor. But industrial motors don't need to be small. If I have a pump that needs a 50hp motor, the pump itself is going to be of such a size that motor size is not really important. Also industrial motors are designed to spin much slower than ones in automobile applications (save the Chevy Spark EV) which limit their high HP ratings (torque times speed is HP). So they aren't really directly comparable. And to imply that an established automaker will have a hard time water cooling something is laughable. An ICE is a much harder thing to temperature control.
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  • Oct 27, 2014
    anticitizen13.7
    The information displays, camera interface, and navigation can be improved over time with OTA firmware updates.

    My biggest complaint with the Model S was the lack of interior conveniences and odd ergonomics (specifically the weird control stalk placement). Tesla addressed the control stalk recently. Given that Model X is said to be designed to be family friendly, I think it's likely that Tesla will have addressed the interior issues by next year. If Tesla can make the X interior as functional or better than the Honda CR-V, I think they'll have gotten it right.

    No doubt that Tesla lagged in these aspects with Model S, but their rate of evolution is very rapid. I'm not sure the bigger companies can catch up as quickly on the areas where Tesla is ahead.
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  • Oct 27, 2014
    dalalsid
    As for the hardware, Tesla will quickly catch up (as they did with the driver assist stuff). As for the stuff that software does (half your list?) , Tesla will give improvements to every Tesla owner ever. When the 2016/7/8 FFEs come out with much better software, will you get it? I drive a Leaf. It is an excellent car and the around view camera is fantastic but the only software updates I get (at the dealer, not OTA) are bug fixes. I'm assuming Ford is the same. This is where Tesla will shine. If you forget for a minute that the Model S is electric and look at the rest of the advantages - OTA software updates, service that comes to you nationwide, supercharging etc., you get at something that nobody can compete with. Ford might claim to have the expertise to make a car like the Model S, but by the time they ever get around to making one, what will Tesla be making then?
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  • Oct 27, 2014
    Skotty
    Ford is making really good cars and trucks right now. They could build a car like the Model S. It seems they just don't want to. I really like Ford, but since I am committed to going EV, Tesla wins because Ford didn't even enter the competition.

    Have you checked out the trunk in a plug-in Fusion? That right there is proof they lack any form of commitment to EVs or even partial EVs.
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  • Oct 27, 2014
    Familial Rhino
    I know, right? I mean, they could certainly build a car safer than any other, with better acceleration than limited edition two-seaters costing >500k, with a spacious cabin and more luggage space than the largest sedan, with best-in-class handling, that travels in complete silence for more than 400km on a single charge, that can drive itself and park itself, whose 99% of owners say they are very satisfied, and it surely could build it to order, for pre-paying customers, and thus carry no unsold inventory, and generate more positive buzz than all the ads that Ford's money can buy, all at a 30% gross margin.

    They could do all that, they just don't want to.
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  • Oct 27, 2014
    mspohr
    The FWD illustrates the problem with Ford. The ICE age engineers just took an existing ICE platform and bolted on an electric motor without consideration for handling or performance. They stuck the batteries in the trunk (taking up a lot of the trunk space). Rookie ICE age engineer mistakes. Not EV engineers. This isn't even "good enough". It is pathetic.
    You like some of the display in the Ford which is good because you're never going to get an update.
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  • Oct 27, 2014
    RiverBrick
    I think Subaru is small enough to escape sanctions by only offering an 11-mile PHEV. They'll just whine and slap an 8-kWh battery on one of their vehicles.

    I'm surprised Mitsu is big enough in California to be considered intermediate.
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  • Oct 27, 2014
    scaesare
    As some anecdotal evidence of this: I visited my neighbor to take a look at their solar system installation. turns out they have a Focus Electric.

    They found it on the back of a lot by accident. The salesdroid tried to talk them out of it. There was zero effort to either promote or sell it. Actually less than zero, as they tried to talk them out of it. They bought it anyway, and rarely have ever seen another.

    I had no idea they existed before seeing it in their garage. If Ford is trying to sell them, they are doing a great job hiding the fact...
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  • Oct 27, 2014
    mrdoubleb
    Yeah... your post summs up what I was thinking the moment i read the headline. Well put. :biggrin:
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  • Oct 27, 2014
    Krugerrand
    None of those things ever got me to buy a Ford. Ever. *shrug*
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  • Oct 27, 2014
    mspohr
    Me neither... but I might switch for the better windshield washer nozzles :rolleyes: (or the floor mats) :tongue:
    �
  • Oct 27, 2014
    ElSupreme
    Uh packaging is the last thing you do. Why blow a whole bunch of money building a new platform when you can bolt on your first generation EV drive train? Come on. Tesla HAD to build a new platform. Ford will accommodate (if they are furthering the EV market) into new platforms as they revamp them. Ford doesn't have a RWD platform to put an EV into (except the F-150 and Mustang). I am saying their first generation EV is quite good. And once they build a 2nd generation one, it should be 'good enough' to compete on other things. Like working sun visors, cupholders, and interior lights.

    But a lot of people do buy Fords. Because of these things. Hell I bought a Ford because they had these things that Nissan DIDN'T! This is WHY PEOPLE BUY CARS!

    I use washers almost every time I drive a car. Having mediocre ones is something that I notice EVERY DAY. It really makes a difference on how much I like a car. Sure you don't test these things when you purchase a car, but you remember about them and look at other manufacturers if they bug you every day, or you stick with the manufacturer because you think "I love the washers" every day. It makes a difference when you talk about loyalty.

    If you were looking at two cars. One with crap seats, mediocre headlights, near worthless sun visors, no grab handles. The other with excellent headlamps, grab handles, wonderful interior light, and sun visors with lighted mirrors. They cost about the same, drove about the same. You would care which one did better.

    Everyone here seems to think that Tesla can learn the car stuff, but the other car manufacturers can't learn the EV stuff. You are all wrong. Sure Tesla has very very good EV stuff. And I doubt that they will be exceeded for a very very long time. But IF another manufacturer (I personally thing Nissan or Ford) really commits to a 2nd generation EV. They will be able to compete with Tesla. It is a good thing. Whether any of the old car manufacturers WILL truly commit to producing an good EV is something all together different.


    And seriously the floor mats in the Tesla (even the much improved 3rd generation) are terrible POSs. How can a $30k car be SO much better in some of these things!
    �
  • Oct 27, 2014
    anticitizen13.7
    I have no doubt that Ford, or Nissan, or Honda could build an excellent EV. It's not that they can't learn. It's that their path to catch up is much more difficulty than Tesla's path to catch up.

    Tesla needs only some minor design work to add storage. Better floor mats are trivial to implement.

    For a company like Honda, they would need to secure a large number of batteries, plan for future battery production, and match Tesla's Supercharger network. Even if they started today, it would be years before the vehicle, the batteries, and the network became ready. Porche and Mercedes have announced plans to compete with Model S� in 2018 at earliest. That's just for the car.
    �
  • Oct 27, 2014
    Krugerrand
    Yes, lots of people buy Fords. Lots of people do not. You're surmising that because those things are important to you, they must also be important to all (most? many?) other car buyers. I don't believe that's accurate. Most of your list is incidentals.

    No other car drives like the Model S, so... But still there are a lot of other factors that would need to be exactly the same before it came down to grab handles and lighted vanity mirrors. Cost, service and warranty right off the top. Then there's the whole free long distance fuel thing.

    I understand you're a discriminating buyer. Hopefully one day Tesla can meet your needs as well as Ford does.
    �
  • Oct 27, 2014
    yesla
    didnt tesla release the patents? why cant they start off making a tesla clone? because their dealers wont sell them. and whatever forces that made GM crush all of their EV-1.... the big boys are trapped. the germans, however... they got the $$ to do something. and have partnered up with Tesla long enough to do something... at the end of the day, ICE is not going away completely for a very very long time. Even if EV sales reach 50% of all auto sales globally, ICE can still survive... on the budget market.... until governments impose higher "gas taxes" that would make the tipping point of ICE extinction... but all of those conditions are just so... perfect... I imagine EV, as good as they are, will still be selling below 50% well into my old age unless people wake up and take control away from the revolving door in governments.
    �
  • Oct 28, 2014
    SebastianR
    Two reflections on how times are changing: I like how the consensus in this forum is that of course Ford could build a car like the Model S - I heard that in other places, too. I think it shows that generally, we move the discussion from "it can't be done" to "it can be done, but I don't feel like it because..."

    Secondly, I feel the tide may - slowly - be changing with traditional car makers, too: The (unwarranted) comment by the Ford CEO is one example. When I talked to an Audi dealer two days ago I heard another: he urged me to not buy a Tesla until I had a test drive in one of the eTrons which he said will come in March... Now of course it is silly to compare the A3 eTron to a Model S but it shows that some dealers are starting to feel the pinch. And that's great!
    �
  • Oct 28, 2014
    30seconds
    FR - you get my vote for favorite all-time post to TMC
    �
  • Oct 28, 2014
    WarpedOne
    This "we can build a car like Model S" is very much similar to me saying "I can build a rocket that will go to the moon".
    "Can" is a very stretchable word.
    �
  • Oct 28, 2014
    Auzie
    Then the question is: If they think they can build it, what is stopping Ford in building a car that can compete with model S in ev space?

    I really like and enjoy reading about Tesla car becoming something of aspiration for other car makers. Tesla has lifted the bar for all car makers, they are all looking up to Tesla.

    Well done Tesla team, great achievement to position your brand as an inspiration to others, keep them coming!
    �
  • Oct 28, 2014
    physicsfita
  • Oct 28, 2014
    ElSupreme
    I'm not so sure on that. I think Tesla will catch up sooner than Ford or Nissan will, but they only have one hard thing to solve. Tesla has LOTS of easy things to solve. In my experience one hard thing more often than not is easier to fix than lots of easy things.

    This is my point exactly. This is so easy to do. But over 2 year producing these things, and on their 3rd version and the Ford ones are SO much better. And the ones they are giving out are still pretty bad. Not to mention that Tesla has another $50k to work with. Sure Tesla is improving the seats. But they still are not even close to Ford or VW seats on their cheap vehicles.

    Uh being able to see inside a car at night is important to almost everybody. Having a sun visor that functions for people shorter than 5'8" is important to over half the population of the US. Having nicer everything else are important to pretty much everybody. I'm not saying that Ford does all these things better. But each car does some things better than other cars. And those 'better' things are what sell that car. The Model S has a better drive system than anything else out there. It has better range than any other EV out there. Those two items are why I bought a Model S. Those two things are why I love my Model S.



    Tesla has met my needs. And done a better job than Ford. But it also cost me an extra $60k. And it could have been so much better. I thought Tesla was head and shoulders better than EVERYONE else out there when it came to EVs. I didn't thing anyone else was close. Even after I had test driven a Focus Electric I thought it was so far away. But driving one every day. Ford is closer than most people here think. Nothing is going to compete with the Model S for a long time. But I expect that there will be at least two large auto manufacturers competing hard with the Model 3. I think that Ford will be one of them. I hope that VW is another, because they are the company that makes cars the way I like. I think that BMW will put out something, but only compete with the higher end of the Model 3 segment. And I love Tesla and will probably buy a Model 3 over the other manufacturer's offerings. But if the other guys make a 90% as good drive system, but 200% better interiors for the same price. I might switch.

    If Ford really committed they could have a HVDC charge network rolled out. And probably overtake Tesla within a year. See they already have a large network of buildings, that generally have large power feeds. And are distributed over the entire US. Sure they don't own these facilities. But they have a lot of pull with them. This clears up almost all the red tape that Tesla has to deal with. With the next generation platforms they could design the vehicles to accommodate EV drive trains, and batteries without the compromise shown in the existing FFE.
    �
  • Oct 28, 2014
    uselesslogin
    I hadn't read the CC transcript. This article has more of that transcript. I like this quote.

    "And part of that is the growth we�re going to see in our Silicon Valley operations which is going to be growing significantly so that we can attract that talent to our company and compliment the already strong talent we have in those areas."

    Considering they are the only ones asking for 150kw it means they are the only ones that get it. If other engineers are "confused" by this then they are still in a gas powered mindset. Anyway I really look forward to the first decent competition whoever it is.
    �
  • Oct 28, 2014
    dalalsid
    The above is wishful thinking. There are many very hard problems, not just one, including non-technical ones which Ford (or anyone else) cannot solve in one year:
    1. Batteries: There is no way Ford (or any other company including LG) can get one or more Gigafactories up and running any faster than Tesla. So competing with the Model 3/S or any other Tesla model with an EV is unlikely in one year. By 2020 maybe. Limited edition CA only cars dont count.
    2. Dealers: Dealers make almost no money selling new cars. Used cars and service is where their profits are. So they have no incentive to sell an EV. Ford can't even get all their dealers to sell/service the FFE. That is not going to change.
    3. Their Existing ICE Cars: Lets say Ford makes a Ford Fusion Electric and prices it 5k more than the Ford Fusion Hybrid at $35k (you know to be competitive with the Model 3). That will effectively kill the Ford Fusion Energi at the same price. So Ford must price it at $40k or more.
    4. Charging Network: As for Charging even if Ford managed to put a supercharger equivalent at every Ford dealer nationwide (more wishful thinking), that still wouldn't solve the long distance travel because somebody needs to pay to put those chargers in the middle of nowhere.

    If Ford really does have EV expertise why does the battery of the FFE occupy almost the entire freaking trunk? Couldn't they figure out any other shape/placement for the battery? How are these guys going to compete with the Model 3 with a trunk/frunk/supercharging/no dealers/ranger service/built to spec car/longer range (I'm pretty certain there will be two range options with the Model 3)?

    I really hope Nissan/GM/Ford compete with the Model 3. But I don't think they can or will. I have a feeling that fingers are crossed everywhere that the Model 3 is delayed/impossible for Tesla to make at that price.
    �
  • Oct 28, 2014
    Krugerrand
    Shouldn't the Ford quote be: 'We can build a 'better' car than the Model S'? It's too late to clone a Model S. They better be looking at making the next generation, otherwise, what's the point. There has to be something more compelling in a Ford clone for people to buy it over the Model S. Oh, that's right...better windshield washer nozzles. :biggrin: (j/k El!)

    - - - Updated - - -

    It wouldn't have mattered who made the Model S, it was going to cost 60K more. Actually, 60k was probably a bargain. Yes, yes! Of course Model S could have been better. Indeed it IS better now than when it was released two years ago. Not sure anyone would argue that point. Even Elon Musk has said as much. He also said why they released, even though they considered it unfinished.
    �
  • Oct 28, 2014
    ElSupreme
    The Focus EV has a battery pack in the trunk because the Focus/C-Max platform didn't have room for a battery pack. Ford did it right (versus Nissan, and VW) in developing a battery pack that works (read temperature management) rather than try to package it into an existing platform (forgoing technical development). If Ford decides to pursue EVs I imagine their next generation platforms will be designed to accomodate a battery and electric drive.

    It's not like Tesla didn't design their entire vehicle around fitting in the battery pack. Look at some of the old suspension threads. They definitely worked their car around the battery. All packaging takes is commitment. The FFE isn't that much removed from the Roadster when you talk battery packaging. And for a first generation EV I think it is the right way to go.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Here I agree 100%. The Model S is hands down better than the Focus Electric. It's not even close. What I am trying to say is Ford could be (if they actually commit) 3-4 years away (they need to wait for a new platform generation to get the packaging correct) from building a worthy competitor to a Model 3. And if they do, Tesla needs to have the rest of the car stuff hammered out. Because honestly I use the interior of my car every time I drive it, the entire time I drive it. The nice quick acceleration and wonderful handling from such a large heavy car are things I try to use every time I drive, but sometimes because of traffic, or a certain passenger I can't or don't.

    And I am pretty much 100% satisfied with my Model S. Sure 6.0 messed up my day/night and backlight settings. And I absolutely hate not having a real headlight switch/knob/button. And the 1st generation floor mats were a complete joke (I've got the 3rd gen ones now, which are acceptable). That and the Ford has heated seats (cloth), and parking sensors standard (which weren't even options when I got my car). But for the most part I am satisfied with everything about the Model S. It's just that some of these things were done better on the Focus, and having them better in the Model S would be even better.

    - - - Updated - - -

    First you are kidding yourself if you don't think LG Chem is prepared to scale up their pouch cell production facilities to meet EV demand. They will be ready. It's their business.

    Next these prices are deceptive. The Hybrid is only a 1.5k premium over the regular car. The Energi SE has standard features the other SEs don't. The Energi is only a $5k premium over the Hybrid. And I would think the EV version would cost about the same as the Energi version. You save a lot on engine, transmission, exhaust, and cooling. You roll all that into a larger battery pack and offer a 200 mile Fusion or a 40 mile Fusion with an ICE same price.

    Ford already has expiremented with offering the Hybrid at the same cost as the normal version. See Lincoln MKZ (Ford Fusion platform).
    �
  • Oct 28, 2014
    RiverBrick

    Didn't Ford totally outsource the battery as opposed to developing it?

    Agreed, the temperature management of the FFE battery is vastly superior to the crude system in the LEAF, which is a benefit where I l live in the Winter. However, the FFE doesn't have a quick-charge port, so the more efficient battery cooling is not needed as much.

    Additionally, the FFE was plagued for a year by sudden shutdowns ("Stop Safely now" message) and by refusing to start at seemingly random occasions. It probably took Ford so long to diagnose and fix the issue due to it involving outsourced components.

    By the way, in Great Britain the FFE costs substantially more than the LEAF and even more than the base i3.
    �
  • Oct 28, 2014
    ElSupreme
    The drive motors they did. They make the battery themselves in partnership with the cell manufacturer LG Chem.

    A lot of LEAF owners (mostly in warm/hot climates) who have never Quick Charged are experiencing significant battery degradation. High current discharge will also produce large abouts of localized heating.

    Perhaps. But this is why Ford isn't marketing the FFE. They want it to be low volume, and have highly knowledgeable customer base. So stuff like the SSN issue don't become large blackeyes for the company. But again they are figuring out their EV stuff. Once they get it straight then they can try to market/sell it.

    There is so much more involved in making a RHD low volume car that this shouldn't
    surprise anyone.
    �
  • Oct 28, 2014
    dalalsid
    I hope so but I have zero faith that that kind of volume can be reached until 2020. There is more to scaling up to that kind of level (matching global output) than making factories. If they were preparing to scale up for that kind of demand right now (cars coming in 2017/8 in volume), they'd make the news more often from factory construction, government incentives etc. What the current state of news (unnamed partner with 200 mile EV in 2017) tells me is that there might be a 200 mile EV available in CA in 2017/8 from a major manufacturer. Volume by 2020 if that is not a botched up launch.
    �
  • Oct 28, 2014
    ElSupreme
    2017-2020 is the correct time scale. No one can produce a high volume vehicle in the 200,000+ quantity range until that time frame. The Model S is too expensive. And all the other manufacturers need a new platform to pack that many batteries into. It takes that long to develop a car.

    The gigafactory is on that time scale as well.
    �
  • Oct 28, 2014
    tdelta1000
    Let's see it Ford.
    �
  • Oct 28, 2014
    yobigd20
    And yet, everyone else keeps coming out with compliance cars and EVs with < 100 mile range despite the 265 mile range Model S that's been out for two years now. I guess nobody else is taking it seriously.
    �
  • Oct 29, 2014
    qwk
    The FFE only exists because of CaRB. This "they could if they wanted to", argument is silly. They don't, and they won't make EV vehicles unless the are forced to. I don't know about you guys, but if I'm forced to do something against my own free will, I definately won't be doing my best. It will in fact most likely be the exact opposite....
    �
  • Oct 29, 2014
    ElSupreme
    Then why do they sell it in Georgia?
    �
  • Oct 29, 2014
    dalalsid
    Yes and Tesla will have a 2-3 year head start at the minimum on everyone else in volume. Nobody has ramped up any alternate fuel car (Prius/Leaf/Volt) as fast as Tesla has ramped the Model S and I have no faith that anybody will do so in the future. Tesla Model X ramp should put anything else to shame. I give it 1 year from initial delivery to 1000/wk.
    �
  • Oct 29, 2014
    qwk
    Probably because Ford took 5.9 million through a technology loan, and it wouldn't look good to just sell it in California. There might even be a clause in the loan terms about such a thing. The others like Toyota, GM, Honda etc. aren't bashful about selling only in CARB states, and Toyota even goes as far as denying service (even under warranty) to someone outside of California.
    �
  • Oct 29, 2014
    Skotty
    I've been pretty critical of other manufacturers putting a battery in the trunk. Some others have been defending the effort, and I get it. It's a compromise many of us enthusiasts could live with. The problem is, you take the average Joe and show him one of those cars, and I guarantee you, as soon as the trunk opens, their attitude towards it and EVs in general will be set. If they talk about the car at all later to family or friends, it will be to laugh at the trunk. I myself was turned off by the Fusion Plug-In trunk, and I'm an avid EV and Ford supporter. Not just because I wouldn't be able to fit anything back there, but because other passengers wouldn't be able to. How many times would I have to apologize for my trunk? I wouldn't want anyone to see the trunk, because of how it would affect their opinions. It would be a trunk-shame-mobile. And it's not a good advertisement for the electrification of the automobile. If they could at least hide the battery, so it wasn't so blatantly obvious that it's consuming all your storage space, it might be okay. But they don't.
    �
  • Oct 29, 2014
    mspohr
    This Ford design of using an existing FWD platform and bolting an electric motor in the front and dumping batteries in the trunk is pure amateur hour.
    It looks like something they built as a hobby on weekends in their home garage. It's not a serious EV car from any viewpoint. It's something they just slapped together.
    I would love to see any manufacturer put together a serious competitor to the Model S but all of their efforts are so pathetically short of the goal that they just give EVs a bad name.
    �
  • Oct 29, 2014
    jerry33
    That would be 5.9 Billion. For some reason, this never bothered Fox News, although the 600 Million that Tesla got did. Hmmm.

    - - - Updated - - -

    It's partly that, but they are really limited in what they can do and not have the stock go to zero. If they make a Tesla copy, they would have to do Tesla-type investments and when the car came out it would cannibalize their existing cars. I can't see the stockholders (mostly investment firms) standing still for anything that would eliminate profits for a few years. Then there are the internal forces that resist anything that doesn't use an ICE. And they have a dealer network (their real customers) who mostly have ten other brands of cars they can sell. They'd likely just write-off Ford (or whomever).
    �
  • Oct 29, 2014
    RobStark
    Tesla's DoE loan was $465 Million Ford $5.9 Billion and Nissan $1.4 Billion

    Focus Electric sells in Georgia because there is a state $5k incentive.

    Atlanta is LEAF's biggest city market.

    Colorado has a $6k state electric vehicle incentive.

    The cold and mountainous terrain make it a bad choice for limited range electric city cars.

    And Tesla is allowed only one store in Denver.
    �
  • Oct 29, 2014
    geturchiru
    They can use cisco spin-in technique if they want to avoid the share holders wrath and the new company can have its own way of doing things!!
    �
  • Oct 30, 2014
    EarlyAdopter
    Ford: "We can build a car like Model S"

    What they are really saying then is "Sure, we could build a Motor Trend car of the year... if we felt like it."

    This is right up there with saying things like "I can quit anytime."
    �
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