May 22, 2015
mikeg561 Dual Chargers are only helpful at home using the wall charger, correct?
I.e. You will get the same charge rate at a supercharger weather you have single or dual chargers on the car.....
Thanks,
Mike�
May 22, 2015
beeeerock Dual chargers will allow you to charge at 80 amps, 240 volts. You can get this at J1772 chargers if they're enabled to provide that much current (as far as I understand). Or at your home, if you've got that much available.
Superchargers don't use your onboard chargers - that's why they're so fast. Superchargers pump in DC, bypassing the onboard chargers (which are required to rectify AC from the plug cable to DC for the batteries). So the onboard chargers (one or two) will have no impact on Supercharging.�
May 22, 2015
Scotty Correct. Superchargers are Direct Current chargers, and bypass the on-board AC charger(s) and feed the energy directly to the battery pack.
Scotty�
May 22, 2015
gg_got_a_tesla Dual chargers (which are for AC charging) are not relevant for Supercharging (which is DC).
Dual chargers come in handy any place where there's a HPWC (the "wall charger") or even a high-amp (> 40 A) J1772 station. Could reduce your charging time by upto half.�
May 22, 2015
napabill Many of the "Destination Chargers" Tesla is installing are 80 amps. Also at the retail locations they often have 80 amp setups.�
May 22, 2015
mikeg561 OK, please excuse the noob question...... Where are there high-amp J1772 staions? Are there any (many?) public stations like that?
�
May 22, 2015
Canuck Home or away. In addition to using the J1772 adapter for EVSE's that put out up to 80 amps (70 is common in Canada), more and more hotels and businesses are installing HPWC's:
Tesla Model S HPWC Destination Chargers Popping Up Across U.S.
Tesla has also added HPWC locations to their Supercharger maps.
- - - Updated - - -
Check plugshare.com for where you travel. The description of each EVSE will state the amps.�
May 23, 2015
Cottonwood Here are a couple of examples of High Amp L2 (HAL2) charging:
- Most of the Sun Country Highway J1772's are 70 or 80 Amps. Although started in Canada, there are several in California and Arizona near you: Sun Country Highway Map
- I helped install 70 Amp J1772's in Pagosa Springs and Salida, CO: 4 Corners EV Charging
�
May 25, 2015
jerry33 They help anywhere there is a greater than 40 amp A/C charge point. This means HPWC or high amp J1772. They don't help with Supercharging, CHAdeMO, 14-50 or low amp J1772.�
May 25, 2015
Larry Chanin Hi Mike,
As others have said Dual Chargers are useful anywhere you want to charge at over 40 amps.
Here's some maps of California that illustrate the point.
These are the public Tesla High Power Wall Connectors
These are the High Power Wall Connectors in private homes of people willing to share them with travelers.
These don't include the high capacity J1772 chargers that are also available.
Many of the public chargers are located at resorts and hotels. If they are located at a destination that you are planning on visiting, they can be more convenient than Supercharging.
Larry�
May 25, 2015
RDoc One thing to keep in mind though about destination HPWC sites is that most of them are at inns or hotels where the typical stay is long enough to get a full charge from a 40A single charger.�
May 25, 2015
Larry Chanin True, but many resorts and hotels will permit you to charge for free if you dine at one of their restaurants. If you stay for a leisurely dinner you can put on quite a few miles with dual chargers.
Larry�
May 25, 2015
m6bigdog +1,
IMHO, Dual chargers are a must - that is a 58 mi/hr. charge rate or a 174 mi. charge in 3 hours.
Tesla currently suggesting that the Universal Mobile Connector and a single charger is good enough since the Supercharger network buildup.
BUT, that ignores the fact that the MS spends more time at a destination than on the road and getting a faster 20kw destination charge allows twice as many MSs to charge at the same destination. This will become a big deal when the population of MSs increases to a point where there are MSs in a Queue at the HPWC charge station.
I vote, all dual charger MSs should have HPWC priority and all single charger cars should stay at the back of the line...
Unfortunately the Dual Charger is no longer available as a factory installed option due to customer complaints and some misunderstanding about its usefulness when you can't use it every day at home with a HPWC or with the Universal Mobile Connector.
Forget range anxiety, I am more concerned with long charging times and 10Kw is twice as long when you could be on the road!!�
May 25, 2015
SW2Fiddler +1 to the big dog for mentioning the queue factor.
Dual chargers make better use of a resource, plain and simple. HAL2 capable often means not having to be connected all night, overnight.
There's only going to be more and more Teslas out there, not less...
Hmmm. Or due to this:
I don't even think Single will be a factory option after 2015. All Xs and Ss will be born dual, or just a 3rd gen single 20kW charger built in. That's the only way the assembly-line change makes sense!�
May 25, 2015
m6bigdog You are only think of yourself and ignoring the fact that others may also need to charge their MS, since there are a limited number of charge stations at any one destination.
It is more about sharing the limited resource as others are unable to charge because you are not worried about charge rate but more the faults economy of a single charger.
Someday you will be in the Queue and it will dawn on you that charge rate has more to do with convenience and sharing the resource that how much time you have.�
May 25, 2015
David99 This looks good zoomed out when each location marker becomes the size of 30 miles on the map. It shows an unrealistic visual. Once you zoom in, they are actually pretty sparse. But the truth really shows once you click on each of these locations. The majority are hotels and resorts that allow charging only to guests which rules them out as normal charging stations, especially when you need to charge fast. So those really aren't available. And it's not like you need fast charging when you stay over night at a hotel. Living and Los Angeles I have never found easy access to an actual Tesla HPWC anywhere.�
May 25, 2015
mknox But you CAN use it every day at home with a HPWC if you have it configured for higher than 40 amps. The HPWC can be supplied via a 100 amp circuit delivering 80 amps continuous which will utilize the capacity of both onboard chargers.�
May 25, 2015
Larry Chanin Hi David,
It's been my experience in Florida that these resorts and hotels want to make the most of their investment. While it is true that most won't let the public just drive in and use their HPWCs, (nor should they) the majority will permit charging when you dine there. Sometimes there may be a nominal fee. Many luxury resorts/hotels with HPWCs have charging as part of their valet operations. They might not only park your car, but hook it up to the charger as well. Valet parking might be over $20, but if you have diner at their fancy restaurants and have your ticket validated, they will waive the valet fee and allow you to charge for free. For breakfast or lunch that same resort/hotel might charge a nominal fee for the parking/charging service.
The fact is that the fee structure for these luxury resorts/hotels can get involved and while clicking on a pin on the Plugshare website may yield the simple "For guests only" note, in actual fact most of the time resort/hotel restaurant patrons also benefit. This occurs with both J1772 installations as well as HPWC installation. Obviously, if you have dual chargers and an HPWC, you benefit even more by getting more of a charge while dining.
On another note, Tesla is aggressively pursuing their Destination Charging Program where they provide free HPWCs to qualifying destinations. They have only recently just started getting serious about this. In Florida we have a full time Tesla resource who devotes all his time to the Destination Charging Program. Over time the destination charging network will expand greatly. As was pointed out, as more Tesla take to the roads it will be helpful to have a high capacity level 2 network to supplement the Supercharger network. Therefore, for those who are planning to configure their cars, it would be prudent to evaluate the value of having dual chargers over a longer planning horizon.
Larry�
May 25, 2015
RDoc Well, if you want to get up at 2AM or wish to be awakened then to switch cars, more power to you. I don't, and I'm extremely doubtful that many people are. I'd have to be extremely desperate to sit in a queue for any level of AC charging, so I plan ahead to avoid such eventualities.
IMHO, destination charging is headed for oblivion as more DC charging options become available, Superchargers, CHAdeMO(if they can make it work) and SAE Combo. While I'm sure there are hundreds of people who don't mind sitting around for hours while their car charges, AC charging, 40A or 80A, other than overnight, is far too slow to be generally acceptable.�
May 25, 2015
Larry Chanin It is interesting to note that the retail price of an HPWC with a capacity of 20 kW is $750. It weighs 20 pounds The least expensive CHAdeMO charger is subsidized by BMW at well over $6,000 and has a capacity of only slightly more at 24 kW. It weighs 120 pounds.
Tesla's version of Destination Charging makes sense, in terms of practicality, economically and from a performance point of view, and the same connector works for level 2 and level 3 applications.
Larry�
May 25, 2015
Canuck After driving all or most of the day, many people like to check into a hotel, unpack the car, have a shower or whatever, then go out on the town for the evening. During that hour or two while getting ready to go out, dual chargers make a big difference in getting the range needed for the night out.
Headed for oblivion when more and more are being installed every day? That's a strange way to become obsolete. And what's wrong with getting 56 miles in one hour? If I arrive at a hotel at 4 pm, I can get 112 miles by the time I go out to dinner at 6 pm. How much more do you need to drive around town, assuming you arrive on empty which is also unlikely. And there's no need to "sit around for hours" when you usually have other things to do when arriving at a hotel.�
May 25, 2015
David99 If you have been driving most of the day, as you say, you are not going to drive another 60 miles just to go out for dinner. I'm all for fast charging. There is no reason to charge slower than you can. I'm just talking from experience of almost 50k miles with my Model S. At first I regretted that the sales person talked me out of getting the dual charger. Now that I have driven my car quite a lot including many road trips, there was never a single situation where the dual charger would have given me any advantage or where the single charger didn't cut it. It would only have cost me more in several ways. It would have cost me (back then) $1200 for the extra charger + $1200 for the HPWC. The installation of 100 Amp vs 50 Amp would have required a new panel and new underground wiring vs just one 14-50 outlet. They quoted me $2k for it. Yet it would never have given me any benefit charging at home. I have never not been able to fully charge at home with 10 kW.
I always hear the hypothetical scenarios where the difference between 10 and 20 kW would be significant. ... if it happens. My point is, it just never happened to me in 47k miles of driving. And I think it happens so rarely that the sales people are always recommending against the dual chargers and ultimately Tesla now doesn't even offer it as an option when ordering. Installing two chargers in the factory is trivial. They are pretty much plug and play at that point. Installing it later is a pretty big deal in terms of labor.
If I had a hotel I would definitely not install an 80 Amp HPWC. I would install one limited to 40 amp and use the other 40 Amp to install an EV plug. Why would I limit the service of attracting EV drivers to Tesla only? I also know that even if a dual charger Tesla arrives totally empty, it will be full in 4.5 hours. I doubt the owner would want to move his car at 3 am and have a second one move his car in the spot. And I would not pay an employee all night just to sit there and switch plugs at night. Heck no, I rather have two 40 Amp chargers, both cars plugging in when they want and both be fully charged in the morning without any hassle. A positive side effect: This way both can use their app in the morning and pre-heat/cool their car from shore power.�
May 25, 2015
Canuck I don't know about that. You can put on a lot of miles touring around a new town on vacation in just a couple of hours. Also, in the winter, 60 miles is not actually 60 miles but my point was that you don't only need overnight charging when staying at a hotel. Quite often you just stop in and then go out. The more miles put on during that time, the better, especially to avoid range anxiety.
It's not hypothetical to me. In fact, I used a Sun Country 70 amp EVSE the very fist weekend I got my car on the way to my cabin (and many times since). My sales rep also strongly recommended the dual chargers but that's probably because we have a lot of 70 amp EVSE's in this area and I told him of my driving plans.
I put a 14-50 plug on my HPWC and plugged it in since I don't need 80 amps at home. I charge at 42 amps at home since it splits the load on the chargers (which are liquid cooled) to make use of both chargers rather than stressing out one. You don't need to rewire your home or use 80 amps with a HPWC since it has dip switch settings to limit the amps (and you refine that more in the car). Plus, a HPWC is now only $100 more than a UMC and it is much more heavy duty allowing you to keep the UMC in your trunk at all times. With another HPWC at my cabin at 80 amps, I can get enough charge in 5 hours to make a daytrip and get back home in the evening. I rent out my cabin (a lakefront vacation home) so I can switch over tenants and make it back without having to take the ICE. That's out of the question without dual chargers.
But to each their own. You're have no need for them whereas I would be restricted in my driving without them.
I'm glad you're not in the hotel business!
�
May 25, 2015
m6bigdog What the HPWC is capable of and what the typical house is capable of supplying to the HPWC is two different things.
That is, charging an MS with the HPWC is a 100% load and at 80 amps when calculating the house service equipment necessary to supply the electrical equipment load it would most likely require a 175-200 amp service to supply 80 amps to the HPWC. Upgrading a service to 200 amps cost some serious money. Mine would cost $8-10k to upgrade (DIY cost much less but I need to trench across 16' of concrete driveway) so I will just live with 48 amps or 12kw charge rate until it need more, say with a second EV.
Also, at your home unless you have a second EV, charging all night is no big deal since there isn't another car waiting to charge. Hence in 6 hours 10kw charge rate will provide 174 miles of charge. At 48 amps is 35mi per hr. of charge and I'll get 208 miles of charge in 6 hrs. and that is good enough for most of what I need.
However, if it get home and want to go back out and I'm down to 25-50 miles range it will be close to 3-4 hours before I get back to 150 miles range at 35 miles per hr. of charge.�
May 26, 2015
mknox I think that is the key point. If you don't have higher power J1772 stations where you travel, then the value is minimal. It's just that around my frequently travelled area, there are quite a few 70 and 80 amp stations. In fact, I plug in to an 80 amp station almost every day and take full advantage of my dual chargers. The odd time I do plug in to a 30 amp Chargepoint or whatever, I find it frustrating realizing that I could be charging almost 3 times faster (big difference between a 1 hour stop and a 3 hour stop). For me, the big advantage of dual chargers was for when I'm on the road. Currently I only have a 20 amp 240 volt supply in my garage at home.�
May 26, 2015
tga That's complete speculation as to why they made the change. We have no idea why it was done. Many have speculated that it was to streamline manufacturing, which, IMHO, is the most plausible explanation.�
May 26, 2015
ecarfan Do you work for Tesla, so that you know that statement to be true? Or are you speculating?
I agree with you that Dual Chargers are useful. I got them in my S back when it was an option that could be ordered with the car so that it came off the line that way. I have 200A service to my house.
For those who cannot set up home charging at 80A I still recommend Dual Chargers because I think that over time higher amp L2 charging stations will become increasingly common.�
May 26, 2015
m6bigdog Not speculation from my sources, as that is what I was told with in Tesla when I initially couldn't get the Dual Charger option in my MS order, at the end of March.
So if you believe it is speculation, it is fueled by the Tesla Delivery Specialist staff as they never once mentioned anything about streamlining production. However, customer complaints and misunderstanding about the Dual charger & HPWC option functionality and usefulness since it was initially recommended to be include in every MS Order was mentioned several times on different calls by different Tesla Delivery Specialist and managers I personally spoke with.
As for the speculation that making the Dual Chargers an Accessory will streamline manufacturing is absurd.
Streamlining production is done by work motion studies, efficient and error free assembly not by deleting options and functional parts from the final assemble. I anticipated there is sufficient dwell time and opportunity at the assembly stations to install the dual charger during manufacturing even if the line was sped up.
Also each car spends hours at the end of line reconciling assembly error & omission issues that mutes any labor effort and/or assembly time to install the dual charger.
IMHO, installing the Dual Charger at the Service Center is as inefficient as you can get by any measure. As you can imagine the damage and additional SC problems that will introduced to each and every MS pulled apart to install the duplicate 10kW charger; let alone the waste of the customer's time. Therefore, the actual cost for SC install is huge compared the assembly line install and the additional $500 cost for the Dual Charger as an Accessory will not cover the actual cost.�
May 26, 2015
FlasherZ There was indeed some misunderstanding about the effectiveness of dual chargers with typical level 2 access points, but as I understand the streamlining of manufacturing and the popularity of the option is the primary reason for the change - at least that's what was in the communications to service centers.�
May 26, 2015
m6bigdog No, I personally don't work at Tesla however my source set up the initial Fremont production line and knows the MS intimately.
Also, the Dual Charger is a necessary component for the efficient utilization of the public charging stations, if not now in the immediate near term.
If you can charge twice as fast then twice as many EVs can charge given the limits of the charge stations at any one destination.
Therefore, if it takes twice as long to charge and all the charge stations are occupied and/or a few are ICE'd then the Queue wait to charge at a destination will be twice as long!!
I anticipate with the near term growth of EVs (236k for 2015, 2014 growth was 67%) and expanded Tesla Production the Superchargers and HPWC destination charge stations build out will be hard pressed to keep pace and if they don't the bottle neck for EV acceptance will not be range or charging time but the Queue wait at the public charge station.
That is a scary proposal!!�
May 26, 2015
mknox Not sure what that means. Are you saying that dual chargers are not effective with 80 amp J1772 stations or did you mean that the "typical" station is of lower power? For me, there's tons of 70 and 80 amp J1772 stations to choose from and I can attest to the effectiveness with dual chargers. (I'm plugged into an 80 amp public J1772 station as I type this).�
May 26, 2015
FlasherZ The latter - you're just lucky with the prevalence of high-power J1772. The "average" public EVSE out there is a 30A model, unfortunately. Tesla tells people the easiest way is to install a 14-50 receptacle and charge completely overnight, not needing a dual charger. I'm guessing the customers weren't sophisticated enough to understand the relationship between dual chargers and high-power charging, or the prevalence of it (or lack thereof).
It's a bit of a catch-22, though, in that EVSE's aren't installed for high power because there are very few cars that can use them; and now we have a car that is getting single chargers by default which won't drive high power EVSE installation. Personally, I would like to see Tesla ship every car with 80A/96A capability to change the behavior, but I believe the pricing/margin concern doesn't allow for it. For the few who want it, it becomes a service-center installed option to keep the manufacturing lines simple.�
May 26, 2015
chriSharek Most of the L2s here in Florida are also 30 amps.�
May 26, 2015
SW2Fiddler This is what I think we'll see:
No more default 10kW option. Service Center installation of "second charger" for those who got an S before they all started sporting the HA factory charger. (price of this has already started coming down)
Tesla ceasing "selling" the second 10kW factory-installed (already there) and just installing 20kW or 22kW capability on all new cars because It's The Right Thing To Do. Instead of waiting for buyers to grow out of "me, me, me, ME, I don't need a second charger so to perdition with all of thee!" It's true and reasonable that buyers would rather spend a hard-earned four-figure sum on a comfort/performance gizmo option than on a boring charger.
Tesla continuing to propagate Destination Chargers (TM HPWC + token J1772) instead of waiting for other companies to Up their Infrastructure.
It parallels what they have done before.�
May 26, 2015
TexasEV I agree with all of these points, but Tesla is compounding the confusion by marketing a destination charging program using HPWCs that can deliver 80A while selling cars that can only accept 40A unless the owner makes an effort to have dual chargers installed. It used to be the effort was just checking a box on the order page, now most mainstream buyers wouldn't even know the dual charging option exists and they won't get it installed at the service center if they aren't aware of it. Then they find a 80A HPWC at a destination and wonder why they only get 40A.
Too many people mistakenly thought they needed dual chargers to supercharge at the fastest rate and purchased the option when they had no need for it. That was a failure of education on Tesla's part and a failure of researching on the buyer's part. Now the best incentive for people to install dual chargers, which is the rapid expansion of the destination charging program, is being wasted by lack of awareness of dual chargers when prospective buyers look down the options list on the web site. High amp level 2's have been rare with exceptions such as Sun Country Highway-- but Tesla could have helped solve this chicken and egg problem by encouraging rather than discouraging the purchase of cars with dual chargers.�
May 26, 2015
techmaven Looking more long term, the L2 destination charging network needs to be able to charge future packs that have potentially much larger capacity in an 8 hour overnight window. Right now, an 80 amp 240v EVSE can charge an 85 kWh pack in under 5 hours. If and when we hit 135 kWh of battery pack capacity, we will need all 80 amps to be able to charge that pack from empty to full in under 8 hours.
The 40 amp charger, on there the hand, is already at the 8 hour border. Any significant pack capacity increase beyond the current 85 kWh is going to mean the need for an onboard charger that has more than 40 amps. Maybe you can get away without it for a 90 or 95 kWh battery pack, but if the battery chemistry improvements mean a 100 kWh battery pack ships in a Model S, the standard onboard charger will likely need to support more than 40 amps.
The advantage of a 80 amp EVSE is that it can be useful for far longer than our current viewpoint on electric vehicles, assuming the plug still exists. A 80A HPWC is also about 8-10x cheaper to install than a 24 kWh DC fast charger. But it isn't really intended to support long distance travel. In the end, destination charging is about long term stay - preferably overnight. 40 amps is definitely sufficient for overnight charging for our current battery packs, but the HPWC scenario with 80A is a good compromise solution between low cost and future proofing.�
May 26, 2015
mknox This is my thinking exactly. EVs are certainly only going to come with larger batteries and more capable onboard chargers over time, so installing 30 amp public EVSE is extremely short-sighted in my view. This is part of the reason I installed 2-100 amp (80 amp continuous) chargers at my company's workplace. The other reason is that even though one might have a whole 8 hour day to charge their car, if EV adoption picks up and multiple cars have to share, then being able to charge quickly and move on to the next car starts becoming relevant.
DC Fast Charging is, of course, another option, but due to the cost and complexity I see that as really more about inter-city travel and not about home, workplace or destination charging.�
May 26, 2015
Larry Chanin 30 amp level 2 chargers may be useful now for an overnight stay at a hotel, but for the most part they are not very convenient for Model Ss that are doing anything beyond a daily commute. I am pleased that Tesla sees the value in aggressively expanding the high capacity Destination Charging network in Florida in anticipation of future charger congestion.
Hopefully Tesla will see the logical inconsistency of rapidly expanding a high capacity charging network, without offering the option of installing dual on-board chargers at the factory.
Larry�
May 26, 2015
ItsNotAboutTheMoney In a world where BEV is king, you will want fast DC chargers everywhere.
Now you choose:
- You can add a 2nd 40A AC charger to 12 cars.
- You can make a pile of 12 AC chargers that can be put in a Supercharger.
At destinations choose:
- 1 x 80A AC EVSE
- 2 x 40A AC EVSE
- 1 x 2-plug 80A EVSE, max 80A total, max 80A on a plug
Seems to me that given average use, 80A AC will be a high-end, marginal option.�
May 26, 2015
brianman I'd love to see Tesla offer #3.�
May 26, 2015
Canuck So is your source the "Tesla Delivery Specialist staff" or the person who "set up the initial Fremont production line and knows the MS intimately", or both, or is this the same person? The fact that you're all over the place with your sources makes me question your claims. Plus, according to Green Car Reports, Tesla is killing options to streamline production:
"This helps us streamline the manufacturing and supply chain logistics and enables us to better ramp production," Elon Musk told analysts during Tesla's recent third-quarter earnings call.
2014 Tesla Model S: Killing 3 Versions, 2 Colors, Some Options
The reasoning in this article makes the most sense to me and none of it is "absurd" at all.
+1�
May 26, 2015
jerry33 Except that for the foreseeable future there will be many routes that aren't covered by Superchargers and the 70-80 amp A/C makes those routes doable. Although I haven't used my twin chargers on every trip, when I did use them, I was sure glad they were there. There's a big difference between eight hours at an RV park in the middle of the day and 3.5 hours at a HPWC.
My most frequently traveled route is 625 miles (one way). Using SCs it's 785 miles. Now, sure, it's still faster to use SCs, but if there was an HPWC at the destination, the trip would only be 645 miles. Twenty miles more rather than 160 miles more. I'd really like to see a lot more HPWCs at destinations.�
May 26, 2015
Cottonwood I regularly drive from Pagosa Spring, CO to Boulder, CO. It is about 225 miles of mountain driving from my Pagosa house to the Supercharger in Silverthorne. While I can do that drive on a single charge in good weather, it's nice to have insurance. Because there is a 70 Amp J1772 in Salida, CO, and I have dual chargers, I have an easy place to top up in bad weather. Going to Pagosa, I have to drive over Wolf Creek Pass from Salida, and driving to Silverthorne, I have to go over Fremont Pass to Silverthorne. When the snow is flying on either one of those passes, it's really nice to top up at 50 mph in Salida.
I love having dual chargers in my Teslas! The only way that I would give them up, is if Tesla installed a Supercharger in Salida, CO or somewhere else on my route. I think that may take a few years...�
May 26, 2015
beeeerock When I ponder this question, a few thoughts come to mind.
1) If you're travelling a long distance and need to charge from almost empty up to full, 40 amps won't cut it. And realistically, neither will 80. You might as well stop for the night, because it'll be dark before you're charged and ready to go again.
2) Supercharging or Fast DC is really the only solution for 'travelling through'. And even that is on the edge of acceptable for the masses... it will get better (will have to get better) to wean people from their ICE's.
3) As EV's become more common, the need for more destination chargers will increase. It won't be a feature requested by the odd guest once in a while - it'll be needed by half the guests, and eventually all of them (we hope!). What will the electric service to the hotel or motel look like? Yes, battery packs may be larger by then, but we must also assume that the build out of Superchargers and Fast DC chargers will have occurred as well. 40 amps might not fill the battery pack of the future, but unless the cars become extremely bloated, 40 amps overnight will get you on your way again, perhaps to a Supercharger or equivalent. It should get you as far as it does today.
Unless we expect to see a substation outside of every hotel and motel, there will have to be some limit to what current draw is required for the parking lot charge stations. Making 80 amps the typical standard means a whopping big service to the facility. 40 amps is bad enough! I don't think it's reasonable to set unrealistic expectations for properties that have finite electrical capabilities. The electrical upgrades both on and off site would be formidable! It makes more sense to build out the Superchargers and equivalent, because they will be new infrastructure that can be built with the future needs in mind. AC charging will simply be the backup plan. Perhaps Tesla is trying to get us used to that idea by downplaying the double charger option.�
May 26, 2015
m6bigdog If you think I have a reason to lie on the forum please just ignore what I post and we will both be better off.
Also, I live 20 miles form the Fremont Tesla Motors production plant and 30 miles away from the Tesla Motors corporate offices, so excuse me if I'm vague about who and how many individuals I know that work for Tesla.
I only mentioned the Dual Charger option, so please don't expand that into something else you understand from others sources trying to explain the bigger issue of expanding Tesla's production numbers.
The Dual Charger Option is 2 of the identical part that will be installed in every MS during productions regardless of other options, so there is no supply chain logistics involved.�
May 27, 2015
mknox For my first two summers of ownership I came to absolutely rely on a 70 amp J1772 station when I took weekend trips to a friend's cottage. The round trip was a bit beyond my car's range, so I would stop for an hour on either the way there or the way back and grab a bite or a coffee. An hour was tolerable. If it was a 24 amp or 30 amp station, it would really be intolerable. It wasn't about "empty-to-full" but about getting that extra jolt to make it home.
To your point #2 above, there is now a Supercharger en route so that has indeed addressed the "travelling through" argument.�
May 27, 2015
beeeerock Would it be fair to say that had you been able to destination charge at the cottage, even at a modest single charger rate, you could have avoided the stop? If so, would that suggest that the lack of a destination charger was really the issue, and the single/dual question would almost be moot?�
May 27, 2015
mknox Yes, that's fair. Unfortunately it isn't easily possible, although on one occasion he allowed me to pull out his stove and run my 50' 14-50 extension cord out through a window so I could charge up and not have to stop on the way home.
I have always felt that the power of the charging station should be inversely proportional to the typical length of stay at it. For instance, destination charging at an airport could easily be just Level 1 (120 volt outlet) since the car would typically be parked there for a long time. A 30 amp J1772 is likely more than adequate for an overnight hotel stay. But for a restaurant stop, 80 amps is really handy so that you can recover a decent amount of range in an hour or so. This, I guess, is the point I was trying to make in favor of dual chargers: if you need a quick top up on the way, and you have access to high power Level 2 stations like I do, the dual charger option is a no brainer.�
May 27, 2015
Larry Chanin True, but what we want and what is affordable is two different things.
With all due deference to your handle, ItIsAboutTheMoney. :biggrin:
The least expensive DC "fast" charger is the CHAdeMO charger being installed at BMW dealerships.
The BMW subsidized price for BMW dealerships is $6548.
This DC fast charger only has a capacity of 24 kW
It weighs 125 pounds
It's dimensions are 31"x19"x12"
In contrast the Tesla High Power Wall Connector retails for $750.
It has a capacity almost as much at 20 kW.
It weighs 20 pounds
It's dimensions are 15"x 6.22"x3.7"
So if we installed 1000 of the BMW DC fast chargers we would have 24,000 kW of capacity for the charger cost of $6,548,000.
If we installed 1200 HPWCs we would have the same 24,000 kW of capacity for a charger cost of only $900,000, or less than 14% of the cost.
That's just charger costs. The installation cost are going to be much worse. The CHAdeMO is going to need a 480 volt service, the HPWC is only going to need 208 or 240 volt service. How many guys does it take to mount a 125 pound piece of equipment versus a 20 pound piece of equipment?
The point is that it is not an either DC Fast Charging or AC charging proposition. Tesla is doing the prudent thing, they are devoting serious resources to doing both.
Larry�
May 27, 2015
Canuck It's a public forum. If you post inconsistent information you will get called out. That's not something I can or will ignore.
Well that explains it. So you know Tesla like Sara Palin knows Russia.�
May 27, 2015
beeeerock Agreed. I've got only the single charger and I'm already wondering if I'll need to buck up for a second one to make trips workable... haven't needed the second one yet, but I'm sure the day will come.
However, I think that Tesla making the second charger less available, or pushing it less, might be their way of trying to train us how to plan trips and charge accordingly. As the SC network builds, a *really* quick charge will be more available and logically, preferred even over the 80 amp double charger scenario. Destination charging would therefore become more realistic, at lower charge rates. The infrastructure beyond Tesla's control would eventually take issue with the heavy demand for 80 amp charging stations. Imagine a typical hotel or motel, with an approximate number of rooms of 40. It's got the 'no vacancy' sign flashing and the car park is full of EV's. Not all will need a charge, but if 75% do... at 80 amps... that would be 2,400 amps! Likely way more than the electric utility allowed for when they ran in a circuit for lights, hot water tanks and some wall mount air conditioners... not to mention the panels and private side wiring.
The backlash that could result wouldn't be favour of EV's... something we'd best avoid I think. I'm guessing Tesla is already thinking out into the future when EV's exist in real numbers. As the first guys out of the gate, they have the ability to form the EV culture and I suspect this could be part of it.�
May 27, 2015
SW2Fiddler Eeeek!
All righty then. Convinced I am. Rep Point given, even.
I hereby take the pledge, that if the above horror story happens at a hotel I'm staying at, I will dial down my Amperage to a more realistic charge rate, say 39A or lower.
Because you can totally DO that with dual chargers. (You just can't do the opposite with single...)
Wouldn't want Amp Rage BackLash after all.
Rick
#AmpRage #CalmYourDuals�
May 27, 2015
jerry33 Right now hotels only put in a couple of HPWCs. By the time they need most of their spaces electrified, I suspect Elon will have sold them a PowerPack to accommodate the charging. For hotels, yes, you only really need 40 or 50 amps as most folks stay for at least six hours. For shorter destinations, a movie theatre for instance, 80 amps would be preferred.�
May 27, 2015
Larry Chanin This is exactly how I feel.
In my view Tesla has made a short-term mistake with this policy in the belief that it makes the ordering process less confusing. That may be true in the short term, but it will create more confusion later when owners belatedly discover that their cars can't fully benefit from the burgeoning Destination Charging Network.
I believe that relatively soon Tesla will realize that this policy is not in their or their customer's best interest and they will do a better job of educating prospective owners to the pros and cons of having dual on-board chargers.
In Tesla's partial defense, prior to this change it cost $3,600 to have the second charger retrofitted. Now it is only $2,000. Still it is costing new owners $500 more than what it used to cost if ordering the dual charger as part of a factory install. Unfortunately, the fact remains, as TexasEV so correctly points out, that this policy obscures the availability of an option that will become increasingly more important as the Destination Charging network quickly expands.
Larry�
May 27, 2015
andrewket The advantage of dual chargers when using destination EVSEs is not just to the owner with dual chargers, but also to the owner of the second car who needs to charge overnight at the same destination.
If you're charging overnight 40A is fine. If two cars want to charge overnight and both cars only have a single charger, now you're in trouble. It would be very frustrating to have an EVSE capable of 80A, have a car with dual chargers, and to get stuck behind a car with a single charger.
The argument is similar to the one made when Tesla increased the supercharger cabinets from 120kW to 135kW. Yes, you might get above 120kW briefly (if you have a pack =>B) and shave off a few minutes from your charge time. The real advantage is that there is 15 additional kW to split between the two cars. This benefits everyone.�
May 28, 2015
mknox Yes, I think it's a decision to be based around your planned travel routes and what infrastructure is available to you. Others have told me (in other threads) that a CHAdeMO adapter is money better spent over dual chargers. Problem is, in my case there are no CHAdeMO chargers on the routes I take but tons of high power J1772 stations. You may never come across the need for dual chargers just as I may never come across the need for a CHAdeMO adapter.
I always try co council folks to install the highest capacity station that they can, but you make a good point here. At a hotel, maybe two 30 or 40 amp J1772 stations would make more sense than 1 - 80 amp station. In some ways I like the 1 - 80 amp model because someone needing a quick(er) charge can get it, and if you have overnight guests, the first one can unplug in half the time and allow guest #2 access.
It's interesting that Tesla is pushing HPWCs (80 amp devices) for destinations like hotels, although they can be configured for lower output.�
May 28, 2015
Cottonwood Here is an analysis of charge time with and without dual chargers on a gap in the I-90 route, assuming 80 Amp HPWC's available. There is a dramatic reduction in charge time with dual chargers. There are 80 Amp HPWC's in Sheridan, but not in Gillette, yet. On the other hand, there are two 70 Amp J1772's available in Casper for a similar problem going Denver (I-25) and heading west on I-90.
Crowd Funding an HPWC in Sheridan, WY � Casper and Gillette to Possibly Follow - Page 5�
May 28, 2015
SW2Fiddler So many of y'all seem to give TM no credit for logical thought and grasp-o'-the-obvious.
I just find it hard to envision Tesla Motors birthing the Model X with a default 10kWh charging speed limit. TM does NOT like their products to be perceived as speed limited. Their modus operandi has been to leap right past the limitations of current paradigms (yeah, you betcha, pun INTENDED) and "stick the landing" on a new standard.
When the dust settles, everyone says, "oh, yeah, that makes sense!" (except the man-I-bought-mine-a-week-too-soon buyers
As goes the X onboard charger, so goes the S charger. Same assembly line y'know.
Single Charger will go the way of the 60kWh battery and for the same reason. Unless it's a new, more efficient, single 20kW (or greater!) unit.
~sets down the mic carefully as a projector nerd would~
Rick�
May 28, 2015
mknox Don't disagree with the sentiment, but the facts seem to support the opposite. Dual chargers used to at least be a factory option, and now they are not. You can have a second charger installed by the Service Center, but even that is not widely publicized. I have to wonder if Tesla is going to settle for 10 kW on-board Level 2 charging on the assumption that it's enough for home use, and a more extensive Supercharger network will handle all of the away-from-home needs.�
May 28, 2015
m6bigdog Yes, it is the internet and you can type what ever you want no matter how absurd.
Zero inconsistencies, you will just want to go back and reread my replies until you understand that.
But still, you need to get a life!!�
May 28, 2015
SW2Fiddler ~picks the mic back up~
Removing the second-charger Factory Option strongly supports the speculation that the choice of ordering a 10kW-throttled Tesla is going away. Keeping a service-center "add a charger" item supports legacy 10kW-throttled Models S into the future. Lowering the price of this upgrade is in line with my rose-colored prediction too.
And it resolves the dissonance of proliferating "Destination Charging at >40A" and "Default 40A Limit" does it not?
Both of our interpretations make sense according to our assumptions. I'm just assuming that what is the case in May is not necessarily what is true in September. (full disclosure: I paid for my Parcel Shelf and over a grand for my HPWC... because of when I bought)�
May 28, 2015
beeeerock I've been sifting through plugshare etc. looking for CHAdeMO chargers near me and have found that they aren't very plentiful. Yet. The smaller J1772's are more common and *my perception* is that they are typically not useful for double charger cars. Some are, certainly, and some are - partially - but the ability to get the full 80 amps doesn't seem to be the typical situation. I've considered the possibility that the CHAdeMO adapter might be a better investment, just as you've noted!
Using the hotel example, who is going to want to walk outside in their complimentary shower robe at 1 in the morning, to plug their car in when the other guy finishes? Will the other guy be awake to unlock the charger? I think charge stations at hotels and motels should be configured to allow a full charge overnight, and thus allow the driver to leave his car in the stall while he sleeps. Playing musical chairs at 1 in the morning doesn't work for me!
I think that many people are arguing over which bad solution is better! If stopping at noon for a charge is required before reaching your destination in the evening, I don't think the single, double, or even a hypothetical triple charger system would really bring EV's into the mainstream. The Supercharger network is the solution, and I think even it will have to be improved as battery and cooling technology advances, to really make it acceptable to the masses.
J1772 charging mid-trip is still a BandAid solution in my mind, no matter whether you have one or two chargers in the car. Stopping at a Supercharger is like pulling into a full serve gas station. J1772 is more like stopping in the desert near a fuel cache situated 100 meters off the road, manually pumping a 5 gallon Jerry can full and carrying it back and forth. Having two Jerry cans makes the process twice as fast, but it still sucks.
- - - Updated - - -
I have to disagree... I think the onboard charger will ultimately be sized for a reasonable charge time overnight, with the expectation that DC chargers, capable of making the 20 kW look like a hand-cranked generator, will become the mid-trip recharging solution. 20 kW is only half as bad as 10 kW, but it's still bad... ;-)
And another general comment addressed to nobody in particular... if you're travelling in the cold of winter, would you want to unplug your car at midnight to allow the next guy to plug in, or would you want to leave yours connected so it could keep the batteries warm and be toasty for your departure - without taking a chunk of your charge before you even leave the parking lot?�
May 28, 2015
SW2Fiddler FixedThatForYou
Yes when I'm at a hotel with HPWCs I plug in but with dual chargers, I am back at full battery before dinner. Leaving the charger for the next person. Last trip I noticed the next Model S was plugged in all night, totaling at least 12 hours straight. It had dealer plates, I chalked it up to noobthusiasm.
And though the parking spot (see my profile pic) is marked Tesla Electric Vehicle Parking, when charged enough I move Pearlie May out of the (nice, prime, elevator-adjacent) Tesla Parking spot. For the next guy to plug in.
Make of this what you will.
Rick�
May 28, 2015
mknox I can't disagree, and was even kinda thinking that when I posted my earlier comment. What I will typically do is leave a note on my dash saying when it's okay to unplug me, so at least a late arriver may be able to get some juice.
I came to that same conclusion myself in another post above.
I think maybe a lot of this discussion has to do with timing as well. When I got my car over two years ago, we were still over a year from seeing any Superchargers in Canada, but lots of 70 and 80 amp J1772 stations were opening up. The dual charger option was a lifesaver for me. The paradigm might now be shifting to 40 amp Level 2 charging at home and destinations, with DC Fast charging on the road.�
May 28, 2015
Canuck Okay, I did what you asked and reread your replies. Here's a recap:
You come here and post speculation as if it's fact regarding the removal of dual chargers from the factory build. When called on it, you say it's not speculation, but comes from inside sources. When asked for sources, you give contradictory information. When called on your contradictory sources, you say that since you live close to the Tesla factory and headquarters you have this information. I reply with my Sara Palin joke. That's the summary of our exchange.
Wait, one more thing, I have a very good life, thank you. But you might want to read this:
ad hominem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia�
May 28, 2015
Jaff I think perhaps your statement here needs a qualifier akin to "here in the U.S."...I know of no one here in Canada who added the dual charging feature thinking it was to accommodate Supercharging...we didn't even have a Supercharger in Canada before 2014...
�
May 28, 2015
David99 That doesn't work for two reasons. #1 you can't unplug a Tesla without the key. #2 when the second guest arrives, is he supposed to wait 3 hours until you're done and then come back to change plugs?
Destination charging is really a great example where dual chargers have no advantage and even cause ineffective use of resources. Hence my earlier comment about rather having two 40 Amp chargers than one 80 Amp HPWC. I totally would have gone with dual chargers if I were in Canada. But for destination chargers, the better option is clearly to have more 40 Amp chargers than less 80 Amp chargers.�
May 28, 2015
mknox You can unplug a J1772 station from the Tesla adapter without a key. The adapter will stay locked in the port.
But I do agree that at a longer duration destination, more lower powered stations are preferable. For short duration stay locations (restaurants etc.) then the faster the better.�
May 28, 2015
Cottonwood If Destination Charging is only for overnight charging, you are correct. However, I have used 70 and 80 Amp charging many times for lunch time top up on routes in the 200-300 mile length where having the double charging speed makes all the difference. Many "Destination Charging" spots are happy for you to charge while you eat at their restaurant.
The real answer is some of both. I am helping with a new Community Center in Boulder. We want J1772 for maximum flexibility and will be installing one 70-Amp J1772 because I got a good deal on one a couple of years ago, and it's sitting in my garage, and a 48-Amp J1772 because that is the sweet price point in the Clipper Creek line. Both spots will be for EV Charging or 15 min Drop Off near the entrance to get some dual use of the spots. We looked into CHAdeMO, but could not justify the cost. My guess is that most use will be from Leaf style EV's, but we will have higher power for the occasional Tesla in need.�
May 28, 2015
andrewket If the hotel is willing to install 2x40A EVSEs rather than one 80A, sure. I'll take that. But then the conversation will evolve to "why didn't they install two 80A EVSEs? They could support 4 cars overnight that way!"�
May 28, 2015
David99 I wouldn't define a restaurant as a 'destination'. More an 'extended stop'. Yes for those, higher power makes more sense. But looking a little further ahead, I think the only good solution for any charger that isn't meant for overnight charging should be a fast DC charger. 10 or 20 kW doesn't make much difference, both are too slow and there is no point installing 50 kW chargers or more in a car. It's just impractical. It makes a lot more sense to have all chargers DC. Only overnight and all day parking (like at a work place) is fine with keeping L2. For those even 10 kW is more than plenty.
I'm actually a little surprised and disappointed that chargers are still so un-intelligent. Say you have 200 Amp available, you could get two 80 Amp chargers or 4 40 Amp chargers or maybe 3 at 30 Amp. But none is a good solution. Ideally you'd have 6 chargers all communicating and splitting up the power intelligently. If there are only 2 Tesla's with dual chargers, they would both get full 80 Amp each. If there are 6 cars plugged in, and two are old Leafs with 3.3 kW chargers, they would only take up as much as they need and the other cars would each get the rest. And once a car is fully charged, the power automatically increases for all other cars. I have only seen a Dual head charger from Chargepoint that does this between two plugs, but that's it. There is a DIY solution called "hydra' that splits up one plug into two, but again, only limited to two. What we need at destinations is a lot of chargers that all share the max power available intelligently. That's the best to support everyone, and give each one equal chance and use resources to the max.�
May 28, 2015
beeeerock Yes, but that assumes that the owners are willing to play musical parking stalls in the night. They might, but 4 of the 40 amp stations would then be even better. The difference is - what is possible? And what is likely to actually occur? I personally believe the midnight swaps won't be popular and may not occur... meaning the second guy will wake up seriously ticked off that his car hasn't even been plugged in yet.�
May 29, 2015
m6bigdog Excuse me, I didn't know 'coming here' and posting what I know needed your confirmation, as you are showing a pretty ugly side with "You come here and post speculation as if it's fact."
When the information comes from several knowledgeable Tesla staff I am not speculating. Merely relaying the information.
However you sir are speculating as you pontificate doubt.
So, if you're confused and/or don't believe what I have to post, so be it, as it is useless to continue this exchange.
Enough said!!�
May 29, 2015
jerry33 Well, that's a matter of semantics. To me a destination is where you stop long enough (one to three hours) to get a reasonable amount of charge while doing other activities. That would include sit-down restaurants (as opposed to fast food), theaters, shopping malls, and entertainment complexes. Given the price difference between installing a fast DC charger and a 70 or 80 amp A/C EVSE it seems to me that there will be far less resistance to the A/C EVSE installs. And getting 60-90 miles of range while you do something else for an hour is not insignificant. It's only too slow if you are just waiting for the charging to complete. 30 amps is just a joke unless you are staying for 12-16 hours. 40 amps is fine for overnight stays. As far as the intelligent switching goes, I don't believe there are any in existence, so until there are there's little point in not installing what is available (and sure intelligent switching would be a good idea if it was reliable and didn't triple the cost). Perfect shouldn't be the enemy of good.�
May 29, 2015
Cottonwood Hear, hear!
There are also many overnight "destination" locations that have sit-down restaurants as well as hotel rooms. Getting an extra 60-90 miles while having a meal can make a 300 mile trip very reasonable. $2k for 20kW for a HAL2 is much more reasonable and cost effective than $20k for 40kW for a CHAdeMO; that's $0.10 per Watt for L2 vs $0.50 per Watt for L3.�
May 29, 2015
ItsNotAboutTheMoney (Intelligent switching is already in use in some locations where there are constraints on the supply.)
For the purposes of charging, I think a better definition of a destination is simply "somewhere you go to do an activity". A restaurant is a destination. (A hotel is not a destination. A hotel is home-away-from-home, so you just need the same charging there as at home; except that as Cottonwood points out hotels have restaurants so might need a combination approach).
Whether you want destination charging is not determined by the length of stay, but rather by the need for charge to get home/onwards. How fast you'd want the destination charging to be depends on how much charge you need and the length of stay.
In the case of our trips to eat at restaurants we'd rarely, if ever, need a charge in a Tesla.
I think that the value of destination charging is greater for destinations that draw in people from longer distances, like parks (state, national and amusement), or concert and sports venues.
It's true that faster is better, but faster also requires a more powerful circuit for the EVSE, and more powerful hardware in the car, both of which add to overall cost. The question to ask is how to deliver the best value and from my perspective, the best value would come by taking the cost of the 2nd charger and adding it to the "Supercharger fund", and then having destinations double the number of 40A plugs.
Being conservative if we say $200 for the charger and $125,000 per 2 Supercharger stalls then every 625 cars without the 2nd charger would pay for a pair of Supercharger stalls. Again being conservative and saying 35,000 Teslas per year, not having the 2nd charger would add 56 pairs of stalls per year, and assuming 8 stalls per site, that'd pay for an additional 14 Supercharger sites per year.
Since I don't have access to the statistics on trip length and length of stay at destinations I have no idea whether my approach would save more time. And that's really the problem with this discussion: Tesla's the company with the numbers. It seems like it's striking a balance by having 40A standard, making 80A available and issuing 80A HPWCs in its destination charging program.�
May 29, 2015
gnxs That's what I'd love to wake up to after a rainy night at a hotel, finding only my J1772 adapter sitting in the port getting rained on after another user unplugged me. Yikes.�
May 29, 2015
andrewket This is why I wish airports would install a long row of 120V outlets (in the USA). If the car is going to be there for days then who cares. It is less efficient, so the total amount of energy required to charge will be more, but this is offset by the savings of installing standard 120v outlets vs J1772s. Maybe 240v outlets wouldn't cost that much over 120v at scale. Not sure. But many more cars could plug in for the same cost.�
May 29, 2015
mknox Then you need the device discussed in this thread a couple of years ago. I helped the developer test a couple of prototypes.�
May 29, 2015
SW2Fiddler Is rain on an adapter more of a problem than rain on an adapter and an energized J1772 spigot?�
May 29, 2015
gnxs I'll look into it, thanks for the link.�
May 29, 2015
Larry Chanin Here's the solution.
This hotels "gets it". They understand service and the value of offering charging.
The Epicurean Hotel in Tampa is a unique experience.
Larry�
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