Nov 3, 2013
rlawson4 My 5.6 experience: in 24 hours I lost 4 miles range from a standard charge. I did have to back the car up and pull it forward once. So my guess is that it would have been 3 had I not woke the car up twice. It's a big improvement. With 4.5 I was losing 10-12 miles a day.�
Nov 3, 2013
Eggplant That's still interesting! That's probably Tesla home base communicating with the car. UDP/1194 is typically OpenVPN. Interesting!�
Nov 3, 2013
apacheguy Yeah, but I would think it would be the other way around. Model S should be the client connecting to TM servers. It's been a while since I did OpenVPN myself, but I seem to remember the clients being able to connect through firewalls easily (i.e. no need to port forward).�
Nov 3, 2013
andrewket This is my guess as well. I know Tesla can ssh or telnet (I sure hope it's ssh) into the cars. I doubt they would expose these interfaces to the public.
- - - Updated - - -
It would have to be the car reaching back. You can't guarantee the car won't be behind a NAT, or that it has network connectivity at all for that matter. The Tesla side is guaranteed to be up 24/7 and not behind a NAT.�
Nov 3, 2013
contaygious Got my 5.6 at a service center. The maps are much improved! Tried wifi browsing and it was very fast too. Happy so far. There was a delay when i put in my charging cable though until it made the click and turned blue. Not sure why.�
Nov 3, 2013
FredTMC I have that annoying delay with the charge cable too!�
Nov 3, 2013
montgom626
Recheck your range loss. It is more like 7 miles/24 hours with 5.6�
Nov 3, 2013
apacheguy Well if that's true then vampire drain has not been cut in half as promised. I was hoping for something in range of 2-4 miles/day. Eagerly awaiting my update so I can test it out.�
Nov 3, 2013
ZBB I averaged 7.2 miles lost per day on 4.5 when it was parked for a week at the airport once. Saw a similar loss when I was on vacation and it was parked in the garage at home -- plugged in and it would top off every other night.
I don't have 5.6 yet -- but would be surprised if it still loses 7/day after I upgrade...�
Nov 3, 2013
tomas Someone who cares should do multi day test. Sure, the person with 200 mi daily commute and no place to plug at work should worry about first day loss. But I think that's rare vs the airport commuter who has to park 5 days w/o charge. I'll bet subsequent daily loss far less if car not woken up.�
Nov 3, 2013
Kraken All of you who are seeing 4.5 size losses are checking to make sure sleep mode is actually turned on, right? If not, of course it isn't sleeping.�
Nov 3, 2013
Vger I bet theses are just the kind of bugs that have kept 5.x out of most of our hands for so long!�
Nov 3, 2013
tomas if reboot fixes it's not a bug�
Nov 3, 2013
andrewket I've experienced the increased latency when pushing the charge port door release button. When plugging in the evse the lock doesn't engage as quickly as well.�
Nov 3, 2013
Vger I do not agree; it is just a more complicated bug, such as one that involves memory overflow/corruption or other long-lasting state.�
Nov 3, 2013
SeminoleFSU + 1�
Nov 3, 2013
AlMc Mine averages 3 miles lost/24 hours. Garage kept, temp 50-75 degrees. My experience is it is a HUGE improvement in vampire loss. Much greater than 50%.�
Nov 3, 2013
pgiralt You're kidding, right?�
Nov 3, 2013
dflye Wait, I thought that was the Microsoft motto, not Tesla's?�
Nov 3, 2013
Lyon Ownership tells mw that we should all see 5.6 in the next few weeks.�
Nov 3, 2013
dsmith2189 When stating Vampire loss difference with 5.6, ensure you let people which battery you have (if it's not in your signature) so we can keep things in perspective.�
Nov 3, 2013
tomas ok 4 people have challenged so I've got to answer. If an anomaly happens once after update and is solved by a reboot and never recurs, it's not a bug in my book. If it recurs, it is. There are many interrelated processors and sensors in the S. The update resets them in some sequence. It would not shock me if there's possibility of some parameter mismatch that requires another reboot after update.�
Nov 3, 2013
dflye I'd suggest you refrain from applying for jobs in QA in the SW arena.
Bugs in SW/FW are about as difficult to track down as genetic quirks that manifest in a minute percentage of humanity.
If you disbelieve that something can be an issue, you'll never find the cause of that issue, whether it exists or is merely a phantom.�
Nov 3, 2013
hans How much different is the vampire loss between battery sizes? I would think that it's the same onboard computer and all the other stuff sucking the power away? Battery heating might be the only thing that an 85 kWh car uses more power for. Some small differences in range calculations due to efficiency and weight differences too. Generally though I would expect that if an 85 looses 1 or 2 miles overnight then a 60 should see the same loss.�
Nov 3, 2013
pgiralt This is possibly going way off topic, but I have to respectfully disagree. If the update does something that requires something to be reset for it to work after the update, the update should do the necessary resetting or should somehow tell the user that they need to do said reset (and even telling them they have to manually reset is probably just a way of documenting a workaround to the bug because the developers are too lazy to fix is correctly). Otherwise, it is a bug - albeit a minor one if it really doesn't ever happen again after a single reset.�
Nov 3, 2013
dsmith2189 With 4.5 in my S85 I have been loosing about 15 miles per day (unplugged and idle at an ambient temperature usually in the 80s). people with 60 have been reporting about 10 (if my memory is correct... probably not) but I do remember they were reporting vampire loss that was substantially less than mine (I whish I had those lower numbers) with vampire losses in 5.6 hopefully being less, I was just asking so we can compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges. (85=apples, 60=oranges, 40=pomegranates)
Last night when I parked at 8PM I had 225 miles, Today at noon I had 215 miles. that is 10 miles in 16 hours.
example of a 60 had only 9 mile per day.
Another example had 5 miles per day.
And another..
And then there was this
I can find more examples with 85s that have similar losses to mine with v4.5.
So from posts like these I have concluded that 85s and 60s have different vampire loss.�
Nov 4, 2013
AlMc It is in my signature. This is not a one time 24 hour measure either. It may be just my car/garage/situation but it has held true multiple times.�
Nov 4, 2013
AnOutsider Another thing I like in 5.6: no longer having to tell my car it's OK to charge at 80A.�
Nov 4, 2013
Cottonwood Also, did you notice in the release notes that rollout priority for the next release goes to those connected via WiFi; time for Tesla to save some cellular data costs... :wink:
Any guesses on how large the image is for one of these releases?�
Nov 4, 2013
AnOutsider As a quick point of reference, I went to bed with 237 miles and the car plugged in. Woke up to 235 miles. So about 2 miles in 12 hours while the car was plugged in.�
Nov 4, 2013
hans I believe you, I am just the curious type so I am still left wondering why. If the difference were battery warming then the shore power feature in 4.5 should have decreased the differences between 85s and 60s. It must be related the the simple fact of there being more cells in an 85 and not the consumption of the onboard equipment in the car.�
Nov 4, 2013
brianman One 5.6 observation...
Centralia (twice) and Woodburn (once) superchargers were limited to 90 kW for me (with < 20 rated remaining) and tapered off to 75 kW in the "middle" SOC (~115 rated).
One random observation...
If you power-cycle the 17" and then the instrument cluster then...
1. supercharging will stop before the instrument cluster goes off
2. the instrument cluster wakes up faster than the 17"
3. supercharging will automatically resume a few moments after they are both awake�
Nov 4, 2013
wcalvin Standardizing vampire measurements
I expect that the vampire current varies with temperature, time since last charge, etc.
A more dependable measure would be a before and after where the before is eight hours since driving or charging. So reading miles-remaining at Saturday noon and then again Sunday noon, without using (or charging) the car in between, would be a proper measure. Compare that between OS 4.5 and 5.6.�
Nov 4, 2013
Pmacafee Is there a place where the changes fro 4.6 to 5.6 can be read in a text format? I need to distribute a memo to all of our drivers. (Car service business).
Philip Macafee�
Nov 4, 2013
AlMc You can probably get it from your nearest service center. It also will come along with the 'download message'.�
Nov 4, 2013
AnOutsider There is a wiki here: Model S software/firmware changelog - Tesla Motors Club - Enthusiasts & Owners Forum�
Nov 4, 2013
strider Me too. With 5.6 there is a noticeable delay before the lock engages and the port turns blue. It's a bit annoying as my almost-3-year-old is in charge of plugging in the car and he's learned to keep pushing hard on the plug until the port turns blue. The other day I heard him grunting and groaning with all his might until the light changed. Not a deal breaker but just annoying that something that was working perfectly is now less so. I work in high-tech so I understand the concept that fixing one thing can cause something else to break or change behavior. Still annoying though.
Also we have "solved" our sleep issue by storing the fobs further away from the car. If your car is not sleeping move the fobs further away.�
Nov 4, 2013
SFOTurtle Good to hear. What kind of vampire loss are you seeing overnight in light of 5.6?�
Nov 4, 2013
montgom626
Mine has decreased from 9 miles/24 hours to 7 miles/24 hours loss in sleep mode.�
Nov 4, 2013
bhuwan Still no 5.6:/�
Nov 4, 2013
AlMc This surprises me. While I do not doubt your findings I would say that my change was much better than yours. Before Power Management: lost 7-10 miles im 24 hours. Now about 3 miles. I have had the 5.X series for enough time to be confident in these findings.�
Nov 4, 2013
DriverOne I've now seen the car waking from sleep. Perhaps my earlier confusion was due to sleep happening only when disconnected from a power source - if that's right.�
Nov 4, 2013
bigsmooth125 Me three.�
Nov 4, 2013
aaron.s Stopped by my local service center today while running errands and got upgraded to 5.6!
Can wait to see those lower vampire numbers... I typically loose 8-10 miles in a 12 hour period!
Aaron�
Nov 4, 2013
tokuro With new firmware, tunein appear to be changed.
On some stations that has high bit rates, Tesla now says I need to use WiFi to connect for those stations. I also have stations that worked ok no longer working under 5.6 giving me something like 'unable to play' error.�
Nov 4, 2013
lczand I am also on 4.5 and have had no issues with the camera. It usually pops up in the top half of the display with no problems.
- - - Updated - - -
I haven't been updated since 4.5. My MS is 13231.�
Nov 5, 2013
aaron.s Lost 12 miles from 6pm to 7am this morning :-( It's 40 degrees outside now.
I do have sleep mode turned on.
Will try moving the key fob further away tonight and see if it has any effect.
Aaron
PS - I have the delayed lock/engage on the charge cable as well....�
Nov 5, 2013
DriverOne Left my 60 unplugged last night. When I came out to it this morning, it awoke from deep sleep. The results are excellent! Took an app screenshot at 19:35 with 124 miles remaining. This morning at 7:05, 122 miles remaining!
2 miles eaten in 11 1/2 hours. That's a lot better!
I'm still unsure how soon sleep triggers, and whether deep sleep happens if the change cable is connected.
edit: temp would likely in the 60s/70s, garaged.�
Nov 5, 2013
AlMc Deep sleep occurs after 15 minutes of no 'contact'. The car will wake at times to check/charge 12v battery. It can go into deep sleep with battery cable attached once it has reached your set charge level.�
Nov 5, 2013
jcaspar Picked up my Model S Saturday. Have left it two nights without the charger
First night 125 miles at 8 pm, 125 at 7am
Last night 217 miles at 8:30 pm, 217 at 7am
Sleep seems to work great!�
Nov 5, 2013
Gizmotoy That's particularly depressing.�
Nov 5, 2013
liuping Does it sleep when plugged in until charging start if delayed charging is set?
That is probably the a very common senario for many people: plug in when you get home, but charge in the middle of the night for off peak rates (or just being nice to the grid.)
I would be unfortunate if it vampired electricity from 6:30 until Midnight every day, just because I plugged in.�
Nov 5, 2013
AlMc My experience is that when it is waiting to charge (you have set a time later in the day) or when finished charging, it will definitely go into deep sleep mode.
There seems to be a wide variety of early experiences with the amount of vampire loss in sleep mode. Mine supports 2-4 miles lost in 24 hours. A very good result with the 5.x firmware. I believe that delay in getting it out to everyone is TM doing the right thing. Listening to feedback from the beta testers and forums like this....especially when it came to having a choice in the power management between deep sleep/slow wakeup or old 4.5 vampire drain and quick wake up modes.�
Nov 5, 2013
strider We have gone from 4-5 miles of loss between charge complete and leaving for work (usually ~6 hours) to 1 mile of loss.
- - - Updated - - -
Yes, it will sleep until your charge timer is set, as long as the fobs are far enough away
�
Nov 5, 2013
4SUPER9 I've been looking forward to 5.6 until reading this thread. I have been on 5.0 since getting my vehicle, and my average range loss is anywhere from 1 to 2 miles in a 24 hour period (garaged at 70�). I would have thought that sleep mode on in 5.6 would = 5.0 sleep mode standard. I'll end up with 5.6 anyway this week when I bring in my car to the SC this week (they promised me to install it then). I'll update this thread when I can make a comparison.�
Nov 5, 2013
Robert.Boston Sounds like it might be wise to buy RFID-shielded pouches for key storage, if you normally keep your key close to your parking spot.�
Nov 5, 2013
AlMc You will not see any difference in vampire loss if you use the sleep mode but you will have the ability to choose what power management mode you want to use.�
Nov 5, 2013
4SUPER9 That's what I assumed. It just seems that the reports here show significant more loss in sleep mode with 5.6, then I am getting with 5.0. I hope your are correct. We'll see.�
Nov 5, 2013
doctrewho Yeah, I'd been getting used to tune in's performance in preparation for my S. Hopefully the stations that I listen to will be okay.�
Nov 5, 2013
Lloyd I agree with this post. I have 5.0 as well.�
Nov 5, 2013
AlMc Sleep mode in 5.6 is same as 5.0...and the vampire loss will be the same.�
Nov 5, 2013
loganss I can also confirm that the car goes to sleep while plugged in and waiting for the scheduled charge time.
I've been keeping a log of the rated range drop and the outside temperature on the legs of my commute where I'm not plugged in and sleep mode is active. I'll report back by the end of the week with how my car did.�
Nov 5, 2013
Lloyd Just say'n it's different than being reported.�
Nov 5, 2013
AlMc Guess you'll just have to trust my personal experience. No worries if you do not. All good.�
Nov 5, 2013
gg_got_a_tesla I've been long forgotten in this update cycle�
Nov 5, 2013
efusco You and me both...I'm usually pretty early in the roll-out queue, not this time.�
Nov 5, 2013
tdiggity Finally. I am a happy camper. Less battery drain (to be witnessed). maps oriented in direction of travel. next/previous buttons change presets. Just need reverse lines in camera and I think i'll stop updating�
Nov 5, 2013
Denarius You are going to want the nav update that's coming!�
Nov 5, 2013
GDH How far do you have to have key fob away from the car for it to go into sleep mode?�
Nov 5, 2013
mcornwell With the new algorithms for calculating remaining range, the energy use required to get rated range seems to have dropped.
Previously, if my 30 mile average was at about 306 w/mile, my projected range = my rated range. Now with 5.6, that number is somewhere around 294 w/mile.�
Nov 5, 2013
jcaspar I have 5.6 and have only been able to check loss for 11 hour periods. The last two nights I have had zero miles lost over 11 hours. Just got the ar so unlikely it will go 24 hrs without being driven for quite a while!�
Nov 5, 2013
apacheguy Is it possible that newer cars are sleeping better (I.e. losing fewer miles over the same period) than older models? I haven't thoroughly reviewed all the random data points we have here, but I do seem to see a trend in that those reporting > 2-3 miles lost in 24 hours have older cars with lower VINs.
I'm just throwing this out there as a wild guess so please refute my claims if incorrect.�
Nov 6, 2013
bsd I left my car unplugged last night. At 8:30pm its rated range was 363km, and at 7:45am its rated range was unchanged at 363km. Overnight temperature here was 8�C (48�F).�
Nov 6, 2013
Cottonwood Which is much closer to the mileage number that you need to have rated miles tick off at the same rate as actual miles. When rated miles left in the battery plus miles driven since charge equal miles in the battery as I start, then the mileage is about 290 Wh/mi, very close to your 294 number.�
Nov 6, 2013
Techlead Sleep mode is not working for me. MS lost 11 miles last night. I know sleep mode is enabled as the car executes the wake up process when I leave in the morning. Maybe the cold temps at night? MS is plugged in but not charging. 5.6 installed 60Kwh VIN 4000.�
Nov 6, 2013
Chipper How close is your fob to the MS??? Too Close???�
Nov 6, 2013
tomas Agree key fob first check� Also, I suspect if someone is monitoring using REST API, it would disturb sleep.
Here's another hypothesis to explain wide variation of perceived overnight loss: we know that part of 5.6 is a refined projected range calculation. let's assume that this now factors in temperature. So, all things being equal, someone who puts to sleep and wakes up in similar environment will see almost no loss in rated range - but someone who puts to sleep in early evening warmth, and wakes up in early morning cold will see lower rated range. I have not checked addresses of all of the posters on this topic to see if the data points match climate, and I have no idea if temperature (either via thermometer or GPS location) is factored into range calc. But this could explain lower AM projected range even if battery is untaxed all night...
PS: I got 5.6 yesterday and will not be a data point because I have sleep mode off and will only turn it on if/when I need it for extra range. For me, <40 cents per day is well spent having car immediately responsive.�
Nov 6, 2013
AlMc The beauty of 5.6......You get to choose your power management.�
Nov 6, 2013
Techlead MS is in the garage. Key fob hangs on a key ring in laundry room off the garage. I'd estimate ~15 -20 feet from the MS. I do use the VisableTesla app on my PC but the PC is off at night. Even when I start VT is prompts to wake up the MS. So I know I'm entering sleep mode. Interesting theory on tempurture change.�
Nov 6, 2013
evsinav I believe it's likely. Tesla continues to improve the car via feature addition so it would not surprise me that individual components are being revised and improved across the board.�
Nov 6, 2013
JakeP How many people out there are still stuck on 4.5? I am still on 4.5, and during my install a few months back it completed with an error or warning, saying it would try again later. It never did try again as far as I know, and I am wondering if some flag has been flipped that is preventing me from getting never versions.�
Nov 6, 2013
bhuwan Still on 4.5here�
Nov 6, 2013
NigelM Thousands.�
Nov 6, 2013
steve841 Well .... my annual service is tomorrow. So here's to the SC installing it for me.�
Nov 6, 2013
xhawk101 VisibleTesla app? Whats this?�
Nov 6, 2013
rlang59 http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/19975-VisibleTesla�
Nov 6, 2013
steve841 It's what you get when software people buy a car that is mostly software driven!
A superb APP!!!!�
Nov 6, 2013
NigelM Mod Note: the Firmware v5.0 thread was removed from the list of sticky threads but can still be found here.
Reminder: the Firmware v5.x Bug Tracker Wiki thread can be found here.�
Nov 6, 2013
tomas FYI, I too noticed (but not bothered by) slight delay in blue ring when plugging in UMC. So, I took a stopwatch to it. Really hard to get an accurate lap time, but average of 3 was�. 1.47 seconds.
Maybe just the way I'm wired, but to me this is well within my tolerance for "instant".�
Nov 6, 2013
strider Initially we had our fobs in a flower pot just inside the house from the garage. It's about 10' from the nose of the car on the other side of a wall. The car would not sleep. I moved them an additional 8' away to the bar next to the stove and the car sleeps.�
Nov 6, 2013
bhuwan Just got the upgrade notice woohoo!�
Nov 6, 2013
tomas Or I could send you some half strength batteries�
Nov 6, 2013
apacheguy I occasionally experience a similar delay (< 3 sec) and I'm still on 4.5. I REALLY want 5.6, as this delay doesn't bother me in the slightest.�
Nov 6, 2013
liuping You could try lining the flower pot with a wire mesh (or maybe some aluminum foil?) to block the signal.�
Nov 6, 2013
tomas Thats even better! Then the black helicopters can't track your keys either!�
Nov 6, 2013
Denarius Got the update notification while out today (1 bar of signal in my garage). Installing now!�
Nov 6, 2013
GDH Damn I hope my car is updated before I pick it up next week, it has 5.0�
Nov 6, 2013
AlMc If it is at the SC for service if you ask them they will download it for you.�
Nov 6, 2013
Eggplant Just upgraded!
Two things I've noticed that I've not seen mentioned:
1) The maps are MUCH more responsive now. scrolling, zooming, toggling traffic is far faster and more responsive than 4.5. Dramatic.
2) The about screen has a different image of the car and no longer responds to the doors opening and charge port status. Very sad. That was always a crown pleaser.�
Nov 6, 2013
TJK Has anyone gotten this update OTA?�
Nov 6, 2013
bhuwan Me. Tofay�
Nov 6, 2013
TJK Thanks, I'm sure my update will come eventually.�
Nov 6, 2013
Bugeater Last Dec. when I got my S, it wasn't competing with so many other cars so it would get updates in a few days. Now with so many cars out there it takes a long time. Hopefully Tesla engr. figures out how to parallelize the rollout process soon! If not, it may take months to get a firmware update...�
Nov 6, 2013
AlMc It appears they have and that TM is rolling it out rather quickly now. Hope you see you update notice soon.
- - - Updated - - -
Looks like TM plans to do future updates via WiFi whenever possible in the future. That will lead to quicker rollout and less cost to TM.�
Nov 6, 2013
Lyon I talked with the folks at Tesla the other day and I've been told that the rollout is automated and should be completed in the next week or so via OTA.
Take this with a grain of salt; we've been told things by folks at Tesla before.�
Nov 7, 2013
bsd The charging screen still shows the live state, as does the front-on view in the Controls.�
Nov 7, 2013
tomas Tho there were early 5.6 users/testers, the full scale OTA rollout started nov 1. It's now the 7th. IMHO, nobody should feel forlorn until thanksgiving.�
Nov 7, 2013
bhuwan Installed 5.6 OTA last night (Nov 6). Left the car at 5:30pm 128 miles. Came to the car this morning at 6:45am and it was down to 123:
a) It wasn't plugged in,
b) the center screen was already on,
c) I made sure the power save setting was on,
d) key fob was away from the car, no where near it.
I never realized tracked my vampire loss until today.�
Nov 7, 2013
scaesare Got 5.6 yesterday (11/6/13) as well. Parked here at work with 128 mile of range left. We'll see what it says when I jump in to go home this evening after ~10hrs...�
Nov 7, 2013
Al Sherman Got it yesterday evening as well.�
Nov 7, 2013
rdrcrmatt Got it last night. Kinda bummed the wifi isn't sensitive enough in the car to reach my AP in my house (detached). My phone can pick it up though.�
Nov 7, 2013
Techlead
Ok I moved the key fobs to the other end of the house ~50 feet. Last night I only lost 4 miles which is much better than previous nights. But it was also ~20-25 degrees warmer last night (mid 50�s). So the temperature theory is looking like a possible explanation. I�ll continue to take measurements over the next few nights so see if there is a pattern based on temperature.�
Nov 7, 2013
cinergi VIN 246 lost 1 mile overnight last night, so I'd say no�
Nov 7, 2013
scaesare Interestingly, after upgrading I linked to my home WiFi network, but only with one bar or so. Over night after charging and assmuedly hibernating, when I got in to the car this morning, it showed a 3G connection instead...�
Nov 7, 2013
Todd Burch A very good source at Tesla indicated that there is no active battery heating while parked unless it's REALLY cold. Those looking at the power saving mode in 5.6 and concerned about whether a 20 degree difference from yesterday to today is affecting your real range should have no fear. It might affect the indicated range assuming Tesla's algorithm takes that into account--but it won't result in losing actual range.�
Nov 7, 2013
AlMc Mine does this all the time. I can always reconnect to wifi in the home but it seems to default to 3G�
Nov 7, 2013
Denarius Left my car unplugged last night, I lost 1 mile of range in about 12 hours. My key is a hundred feet or so away from the car at night.�
Nov 7, 2013
ZBB I received 5.6 yesterday. Two observations so far:
- Nav routing now seems to take traffic into account. When I pick up my daughter from school, I have a choice of 2 routes, one of which is marginally shorter but has a lot more traffic. On 4.5, the Nav always routed that way. 5.6 routed the other way today...
- it looks like my car did not sleep while at work today... Still lost 3miles of range (similar to 4.5). Will watch this over the next few days..�
Nov 7, 2013
napabill I have to admit that I find it very annoying that the methodologies used in the navigation program are so hidden. Would seem that a paragraph or two stating how the navigation system works and on what basis it computes the route would be elementary. We are left to speculate. And this applies to most of the MS systems.�
Nov 7, 2013
Benjamin Brooks That's surprising; seems like something they would probably list in the release notes (general consensus up to now was all Model S firmware releases did not auto-route around or account for traffic)
The turn-by-turn navigation is Navigon software based, whereas the Google maps / Google traffic data is a separate entity. Navigon already has a traffic database feature that can route you around traffic... not sure if they activated that feature or did something else proprietary.�
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