Oct 3, 2012
Robert.Boston So, at the risk of being excommunicated, I'll say what I think:
Industry standards committees are worthless. Dozens of nattering nabobs from companies that have little commercial interest in actually delivering electric vehicles, endlessly debating details that quickly fall behind the commercial and engineering realities of the market. SAE and IEC can spend the next decade working to agree on a standard, while the market moves along at an exponential pace, making their discussions as irrelevant as the wind scattering leaves on an autumn morning.
Leave'm behind.
Tesla has developed a charging system that meets the needs of its customers. It has committed to meet those needs by developing a charging network. Tesla has challenged the EV industry to wake up and to live in the commercial world. Standards committees may continue their endless debates, but Tesla will move ahead and produce cars and chargers for those cars.
My money is with Tesla. You can make your own decision.�
Oct 3, 2012
doug I am curious to see what Tesla ends up doing in the European market. They always seem to be last minute with this sort of thing. Perhaps they're waiting to see how things shake out.
One thing is clear, though. If Tesla plans to actually follow through on 3-phase charging, they can't do it with their current (TSL02) Model S connector.
I suppose they could have an external charger for the home that connects to 3 phase service and uses the existing Model S connector for DC (like a 30kW Supercharger-lite), but that would be kind of lame.�
Oct 3, 2012
qwk Yep. Tesla has gotten their connector VERY right.
No other existing connector is as consumer friendly design or provides even close to the rate of 90kw let alone 120kw. There shouldnt even be a debate.�
Oct 3, 2012
dsm363 Agree. Tesla has easily created the best connector out at this point. Elegant and functional and crushes the J1772 standard. If they are able to alter it for three phase systems for Europe then that makes it even better.�
Oct 3, 2012
doug Yet somehow they have been a bit tone deaf to the needs of European customers, and got bad advice from RWE (of all places) thinking they could get aways with only single phase. This is after years of experience with Swiss owners stuck charging their Roadsters at 16A.
With the Model S, they really did have the chance to make a single world connector, that would have truly led the way. But for whatever reason they missed that opportunity and will either have to design yet another connector for Europe or use one of the (just about, almost but not quite) existing standards, most likely the Type-2 Combo plug.�
Oct 3, 2012
dsm363 That baffles the mind as well. They could do whatever they wanted to without interference from some committee and they didn't think ahead to a world Tesla standard. Maybe they'll just slightly alter their current design for Europe and keep it roughly the same size if that's possible.�
Oct 3, 2012
Doug_G Certainly standards are a double-edged sword. They make interoperability possible - if done properly - yet also freeze you at a certain technology level. Making a good standard is truly a fine art, and unfortunately these committees are often very blunt instruments.�
Oct 3, 2012
doug Well, I still kinda like this idea as way to at least be self compatible:
I've been told that that the existing charge port opening isn't being enough for the Mennekes Type-2 connector (even without the extra high power DC pins). Maybe along with the amber rear turn signals (required in Europe), they'll make the opening larger in the tail light.�
Oct 3, 2012
TEG Yep, lame as in overly expensive as the biggest downside.�
Oct 3, 2012
donauker Why not only one extra pin and downsized considerably because it only needs to be sized for 63 amp not 250?�
Oct 3, 2012
RDoc Daimler is Mercedes.�
Oct 3, 2012
dsm363 Thank you. I glossed over that but you're right. An impressive collection of companies so looks like that will win out for their vehicles at least. You'd think they could have come up with something better.�
Oct 3, 2012
doug Maybe. Depends whether or not they can use the delta configuration versus the wye (400V versus 230V). That pic was just some guy's idea for a charge port that supports 3-phase and would also be compatible with the existing Model S connector.�
Oct 3, 2012
Norbert Yes, the third/fourth pins could be smaller (also for cost reasons), while the first two need the same size as they will be used with DC (3-phase AC into the car isn't likely to be practical for high power rates, so AC -> DC conversion for those will happen outside the car).
Also for cost reasons, it wouldn't be effective to use a 3-phase capable connector in the US. Those pins/connectors need to be high quality. So I think the whole excitement about the US connectors not being 3-phase capable is an unwarranted storm in the teacup.
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+1
�
Oct 4, 2012
Kevin Sharpe Sorry but that's untrue... we are working with a Formula E development team on a road car... we have lots of exotic charging including a 200A Yazaki connector derivative. The CHAdeMO charging hardware that's deployed today is not indicative of what's possible.
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I discussed this at a recent SMMT roundtable with a French Government delegation. They told me that they are installing 1 Million Type 2 Charging Stations in France.
Many UK homes deploy Type 1 ("J1772") because that's what's on their current car. However, all commercial locations must install Type 2 ("mennekes"). This all works because you use a Type 2 to Type 1 cable when away from home.
The great thing about Type 2 is that it supports 1 & 3 Phase up to 43kW AC with very low cost hardware (�500 / $800) and will literally be deployed everywhere across Europe.
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You are mistaken if you think these standards are not real today. By the time the Model S is sold to customers in the UK I believe we will have as many as 10,000 public Type 2 Charging Stations and 100 CHAdeMO chargers. Furthermore, France could lead the world with 250,000 Type 2 Charging Stations (1 million within 5 years), and The Netherlands hundreds of CHAdeMO.
In the UK today we have 9 public Tesla 16kW HPC Charging Stations. If Tesla introduce another proprietary solution here they will completely miss out on the wave of infrastructure deployments that accompany high volume cars like the Renault ZOE. Tesla need to engage with the people who are deploying infrastructure and create a mass market for EV's. Deploying a proprietary charging standard will hurt Tesla here.
Let me give you an example of the difference in dealing with Tesla and Renault with regards to EV charging infrastructure. I rang Tesla today and they can neither tell me when I can purchase a Model S in the UK nor what charging the car will support (nothing surprising there). Renault told me in 2010 what charging would be available on the first 4 EV's they deliver AND they've had a Charging Station compatibility programme (Z.E. Ready) for testing hardware in place from early 2011.�
Oct 4, 2012
jkirkebo Yeah, the best approach seems to modify the chargers to accept 400V and include a smaller centre pin. This way the external dimensions of the connector could be identical. Also this would make 400V single phase charging possible, opening up the same possibilities as using the Quick220 in the US (using two hots on opposing phases from different sockets).�
Oct 4, 2012
dpeilow I believe that this was Tesla's original thinking too, but this is what we all fought hard against. 3 phase will be particularly useful at the 22 and 43kW public charging stations. The last thing needed is an expensive and still sizeable charging box sitting around on the pavement.�
Oct 4, 2012
widodh Let's hope that is all behind us.
Not to spoil the fun here, but isn't the whole connector thing something that has been discussed over and over? The US gets a 1-phase high Amp connector, Europe gets a 3-phase medium-Amp (per phase) connector.
This way the goal is: In both Europe and the US we can charge at roughly 20kW at home or abroad if the EVSE supports it.
In the US it would mean 80A on a single-phase and in the rest of the world it would be 32A 3-phase.
Isn't this what has been discussed over and over on this forum? (Even in this topic)�
Oct 4, 2012
dpeilow People have short memories.�
Oct 4, 2012
jkirkebo Except I want 44kW 3-phase charging
I'll be willing to pay quite a bit extra for going from 22kW to 44kW too.�
Oct 4, 2012
doug Yeah it's a total rehash. It came up because Kevin derailed the Supercharger thread to talk about Mennekes. I moved these posts from there to this more appropriate existing thread (which I should probably split off at this point). I suppose as Tesla reveals their Supercharger plans but have yet to show what connector they'll use in Europe, there is some renewed interest in the topic.�
Oct 5, 2012
Kevin Sharpe It's not that simple in the UK where we need 80A single-phase AND 32A three-phase because many sites have one or the other (and sometimes both) :smile:
So long as Tesla support Type 2 Charging Stations then it's irrelevant what's at the car end so long as it does not need adaptors (which will be unlawful).
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While you may think this is all settled I'm not at all convinced because of what's being said in both official and unofficial Tesla channels.... clearly Tesla made a mistake historically with regards to European charging requirements (and IMO the new connector) and it's important to remind our US colleagues about the realities on the ground here.
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Don't underestimate the power of the infrastructure deployment companies in the UK.... they are banding together and will speak with one voice in the future. Tesla need to make this easy for these companies or go it alone in Europe.
Let me give you a trivial example... Renault launched the Twizy with a 13A UK plug that does not fit into existing Charging Stations. The infrastructure companies decided as a group that they would not change their Charging Stations and Renault will now modify the car.
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I agree but think this is a step too far for Tesla unfortunately.
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To be fair, there is so much ignorance about European charging on your side of the pond that we have to rehash this from time to time. You may not give a damn about drivers outside of the US but IMO Tesla will not have a long term future if they remain a US centric car company.�
Oct 5, 2012
doug To be fair, as an American, I've supported having a world standard from the start. Supported Mennekes type-2 when I first saw it. Complained about adopting J1772 type-1 compared to the superior type-2 in the US (until that ship had sailed), and supported 3-phase charging for the Model S. So you should watch who you paint with that brush.
All we really ask on this forum is that people be polite and to stay on topic. You seem to have trouble with both.�
Oct 5, 2012
Eberhard If Renault is offering his ZOE, an sub compact car with an only 22kWh batterie, with 3-phase 43kW charging for free (standard, no upgrade) what will Tesla do?
Renault will also introduce his chameleon charger in any of the cars beginning next year.
This will start the race of quick charging, no need for expensive CHAdeMO or Teslas Supercharger�
Oct 5, 2012
stopcrazypp That may be possible in future, but none of the chargers TODAY support it. The point was there is no CHAdeMO certified charger that is above 60kW (so certainly none in public use). Reading the CHAdeMO website, the goal from the start was chargers ~50kW (their FAQ mentions why they didn't set a target for 100kW or 200kW, they wanted to strike a balance between needs and cost). Maybe there are prototypes of such higher power chargers, but Tesla already has a 120kW capable charger which they put to public use and have run at 90kW.
As for higher power connector derivatives, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the issue with the CHAdeMO design is that the power pins themselves are too small to support the extra current (I have read somewhere that a Tesla engineer mentioned this), so a derivative would have to add extra pins or use bigger pins, which would affect compatibility with existing stations (defeating the purpose of using the standard in the first place).
But CHAdeMO is a side point. Tesla is unlikely to choose CHAdeMO in the US in the first place since practically all of the non-Japanese automakers backs CCS, plus Tesla has worked with SAE before on J1772 L2 so they would heavily favor J1772-DC. I think the adapter route is a okay solution for now while the two standards battle it out (unless CHAdeMO gets accepted into IEC 62196-3, the adapter can also be used in Europe). J1772-DC will be ready for commercial launch late this year, so we should see results very soon.
As for the whole debate on what will be used in Europe, we are all just guessing. In reality, those of us on the North American side will have little to no effect on what is used in Europe (and vice versa), as it appears the international "standard" is to have the two sides use completely different connectors. Tesla will do what makes sense in Europe for the European market Model S and what makes sense here for the North American market Model S. It's fine that they are not the same (the only real effect is on people who intend to import cars from different markets).�
Oct 5, 2012
VolkerP Not quite. I expect the global rollout of the supercharger network to stick with the current Tesla02 plug. An EU specific charge port would not be compatible with the supercharger hardware. Any 3 phase AC charge port in Europe should be a separate charging port IMO.
They already missed the opportunity to make a global plug. Excuse me but my confidence in Tesla's wits to do the best thing in Europe is a bit shaken.�
Oct 6, 2012
jcstp So for Chademo you have Nissan Leaf & Mitsubishi I-Miev
For Mennekes you have Renault Zo� (to come)
for j1772 toyota rav4ev, prius pip and volt/ ampera Leaf & I-miev
And for Tesla the old and new Plug
So saying one or other standard is winning is just too early
Only thing that is winning and is standard on all is the electricity�
Oct 6, 2012
faheus in my opion is the Tesla Connector the nicest one, Small, and not to ugly and bulky.
would be nice if they could install it on ALL cars�
Oct 6, 2012
Kevin Sharpe How many Tesla Superchargers are live today and how many vehicles are using it? How does that compare to CHAdeMO?
Future enhancements to CHAdeMO can be deployed quickly but most cars today probably don't need it TODAY.
Nope, it's compatible with existing CHAdeMO deployments... do you really think the CHAdeMO members are sat on their hands or that everything is in the public domain? They have been deploying DC chargers for a long time and know a thing or two about it... lets see what the reality is of Tesla's design before we declare CHAdeMO dead.�
Oct 6, 2012
Kevin Sharpe fully agree... I've seen a prototype 43kW AC charger for a Leaf from a third party... that really would transform the prospects for DC in Europe :smile:�
Oct 6, 2012
dpeilow I don't follow. I presume you mean transform the prospects downwards. Is this prototype 43kW charger something that goes inside the car, an external portable box or a static installation?�
Oct 6, 2012
Kevin Sharpe The good news is that in Europe all of the AC requirements can be met by Type 2 Charging Stations with the appropriate cable - ZOE, Leaf, I-Miev, Rav4, PiP, Roadster, Model S, etc., etc. :smile:
Today the only DC system deployed in Europe is CHAdeMO and that's the real battle ground going forward IMO.�
Oct 6, 2012
dsm363 Just be because one standard got the rollout first or had major backing doesn't mean it will win. Look at HD DVD vs Bluray. It definitely is helpful to be out first and build up a lead though.�
Oct 6, 2012
stopcrazypp Actually if IEC 62196-3 is finalized in time for the supercharger rollout in Europe, it can be made to be compatible. After all, the Tesla02 plug is electrically compatible with J1772 and J1772-DC. The Mennekes version will use the same signaling for DC, so all three should be compatible given the correct connector on the charger. The only sticking point right now is IEC's apparent ban on adapters (otherwise Tesla is almost guaranteed to go the adapter route, maybe with a revised version of the Tesla02 plug to support three phase).
That is regrettable, but it seems they are only taking a page from the SAE and IEC book (absolutely no three phase support in North American/Japanese market).�
Oct 7, 2012
VolkerP Thanks for your thoughtful response. The ban of adapters now appears to be the biggest obstacle in the way to globally interoperating charging infrastructure. I have a feeling that our grand kids will study these hassles, shaking their heads with disbelief -- in a way like we look back in European history when Germany was divided into dozens of kingdoms.�
Oct 7, 2012
Robert.Boston The simple answer is for governments to decline to ban adapters. IEC cannot dictate a nation's regulations. The rational decision for regulators would be to require *safe* adapters that have been tested appropriately.�
Oct 7, 2012
dpeilow I have to wonder how closely Tesla were paying attention to this and whether they could have had a representative on the committee to lobby to have adapters included. Then we wouldn't be having this discussion.�
Oct 7, 2012
jcstp maybe the committee where all but electric car producers�
Oct 7, 2012
Kevin Sharpe In the car... something like the product that Ingineer is developing (except that it's using a connector in the DC wiring harness).
�
Oct 7, 2012
Kevin Sharpe I think we've missed that opportunity... in the UK the IET Code of Practice for Electric Vehicle Charging Equipment Installation mandates BS EN 61851-1 and that will eventually become part of our wiring regulations.�
Oct 7, 2012
dpeilow Sounds pretty expensive though.�
Oct 8, 2012
RDoc That's clearly a very reasonably result. As crazy as the EU (or any govenment) might be, Balkanizing the charging systems, especially without any clear single standard sounds a stretch.�
Oct 8, 2012
dpeilow Well to be fair to the EU, they've said they won't pick a winner at L3 until 2017.�
Oct 8, 2012
doug For Level 2, they're effectively using adapters anyway. They carry around cables with Type-2 (Mennekes) on one end whatever your car needs on the other end.�
Oct 9, 2012
jcstp the point of vieuw of abb
multiple standards is no problem
no value in slow charging
�
Oct 9, 2012
widodh They are obviously talking in their own direction, since they will sell the additional features to the EVSE infrastructue
I also think there is no value in 1-phase 16A charging (Europe!!), every car should at least charge with 11kW (3x16A) to gain any significant range in a short period of time.�
Oct 9, 2012
Kevin Sharpe it's not... remember that the ZOE includes 43kW in a 'mass market' EV so I think that demonstrates what's possible :smile:�
Oct 9, 2012
dpeilow Yes - in the case of a ground up design that is fully integrated into the car's other electronics. But in that very thread you linked to they talk about $1 per Watt, maybe $0.50 best for an aftermarket charger to integrate into the LEAF.�
Oct 10, 2012
RDoc It still seems to me that for a car like the Tesla, there's not a lot of difference between 10kw charging and 40 kw charging. The rate has to be at least Supercharger 90kw or faster to really make a difference for most trips for most people. The below list of scenarios assumes a Tesla-like car with a range of around 250 mi at normal driving speeds. IMHO that is a very different vehicle than one having a range less than 100 mi.
- For normal daily trips, charging is at home overnight so 10 kw is fine.
- For an overnight visit to friends or other non-public charging station location within 250 mi, if there is access to something like a dryer socket, 10 kw is all you can get anyway.
- For a relaxed road trip of 300 to 400 mi/day, driving 5 to 7 hours with no or minimal recharging overnight, 40 kw means over 2 hours for a recharge. That's much too long for most people. An hour is probably OK if it's somewhere to get lunch, but anything longer would be a hard sell to most people for normal trips I'd think.
- For a relaxed overnight at a parking garage or hotel with a public charger, 10 kw should be fine.
- On a long distance trip doing 600 - 800 mi/day, 10 to 12 hours of driving requiring more than one stop, the 40 kw 2 hour charging would be completely unacceptable. Even spending an hour at the second and/or third stop would be a big problem for most people on such a trip. If overnight charging were available, the 10 kw charger would be fine, but I don't think current EV's are what most people would want on such a trip.
- A relaxed trip just beyond the range with overnight charging at the end, say 350 mi total, seems like one of the few normal trips where 40 kw charging would be useful. With 40 kw charging a 50% charge would take around an hour which would be OK for lunch. With 10 kw it's 4 hours which sounds unacceptable to me.
I realize that people currently do long trips stopping for a few hours at KOA etc. during the day, but doubt that most non-enthusiasts are willing to do that.
It seems to me that for normal use, for a Tesla-like car, medium level charging isn't particularly useful.�
Oct 10, 2012
Robert.Boston @RDoc: from here to NYC is 215 miles. Easy enough for the 85kWh battery. Tomorrow I'm going down for lunch and then to give a presentation in the afternoon, finishing up around 5pm, so say 6 hours of charging time. At 10kWh, my battery's not yet full; at 40kWh, it is. Just one example.�
Oct 10, 2012
JRP3 Yeah, I can come up with many scenarios where 40kw charging would be quite useful.�
Oct 10, 2012
RDoc That's true, but even with the 10 kwh charger, you'd probably just make it. Leaving NYC at 5 PM is likely to be an exercise in stop and go traffic until you get well out of the city, so your range would likely be more than 250 mi. if you stay around the speed limit the rest of the way back. Obviously though, more charge would be better.
I'm not saying that there are no trips where it wouldn't be useful, just that such trips are not common.
I don't think most people do many trips where they drive 3 1/2 to 4 1/2 hours, stay for a few hours, then drive back. That's a pretty long day with a lot of driving, particularly through NYC rush hour traffic. I, for one, would avoid making such a trip. Provincetown (150 mi) for the afternoon and back in one day is about as far as I like without an overnight.�
Oct 10, 2012
Robert.Boston I'm flying, actually, because (a) I agree that it's stupid-crazy to drive that much in a day and (b) I'm going on to DC.�
Oct 10, 2012
RDoc �
Oct 10, 2012
tomsax For the Roadster, 10 kW is about 35 ideal miles per hour of charging (IMPH), 16.8 kW is 60 IMPH. For Model S, 10 kW is about 31 rated miles per hour of charging and 20 kW is 61 RMPH. That's a big difference for medium range trips.
For example, Seattle to Coeur d'Alene, ID, is about 300 miles, definitely beyond the single charge range of the Roadster. To make the drive, we stop in Ellensburg to get a leisurely lunch while we charge at the Tesla HPC (16.8 kW). In 60 to 90 minutes, we have enough charge to make it to Coeur d'Alene. Before we got the HPC there, it required three hours of charging and several owners got impatient with the wait and had close calls making it.
Seattle to Portland is 180 miles on I-5, which makes it just beyond the range of the Roadster at 70 mph. At 55 to 60 mph, it's easy to make the drive on one charge, but that's a horrible drive. Most of I-5 on that stretch is two lanes in each direction with a 70 mph speed limit. The left lane has cars going 70 to 75 mph and the right lane has big trucks going 60 to 65 mph. So sitting in the right lane keeping it at 60 or under, forcing the big trucks to pass, is not fun. In 2010, several of us in the community worked with the Burgerville chain of eco-friendly burger joints to get an HPC installed at their Centralia location, about halfway between Portland and Seattle. Now, we can drive 70 to 75, stop for a break and snack for 20 minutes and pick up enough charge to make it the rest of the way with no concern about speed or range. If there were only a 10 kW station (or worse, one of the anemic 7 kW J stations), that stopover would be a much bigger disruption than it is.
I like having a 20-minute break on a 3-hour drive and an hour break on a 5-6 hour drive (although two 30-45 minute breaks would be better).
Every EV owner thinks their maximum charge rate is the bare minimum required for extended driving, however there's a gigantic difference between 20 kW and 90 kW charging. To get 90 kW charging, you have to wait for Tesla to do it. It's incredibly difficult: expensive to install, complex to get permitted, with considerable demands on the host site. On the other hand, we have proven that a few motivated owners can get 16.8 to 19.2 kW charging installed strategically, inexpensively, and in a timeframe of months not years.
20 kW charging can open up big chunks of the country to EV travel, places that won't see Supercharger (or even CHAdeMO) support for many years.�
Oct 10, 2012
RDoc @tomsax: But with the S, the range at 70 mph is about 220 mi, so it could keep up with traffic and make the 180 mi run easily.
The 300 mi trip is my case 6 where faster charging is useful. However, for most people, an hour and a half stop on what normally would be a 5 hour trip in an ICE car would be quite unwelcome. It's better than a 3 hour stop, but neither sounds very appealing.�
Oct 10, 2012
tomsax RDoc: You're missing the point. Level 2 charging can make trips at or a little beyond the single charge range doable, even reasonable, and the faster the Level 2, the better the result.
If we could click our heels and get Superchargers everywhere overnight, then talking about Level 2 would be silly, but that's not where we are. It's a mistake to dismiss Level 2 charging when it can be very helpful getting to areas that won't be covered by Superchargers for many years.
I'm sure it doesn't apply to everyone, but when a lot of EV owners get used to the pleasures of driving electric, they'll choose to drive electric even if it means a change to their driving habits.
I didn't start out as an EV fanatic. My wife bought our first EV as an experiment in 2008, a used 2002 Toyota RAV4-EV. We weren't sure how well it would work out. We hoped it would handle about 50% of our local driving. With a 100-mile range, it handled all of our local driving, except when we had to be different places at the same time. We sold our Nissan Pathfinder a month or two after getting the RAV. In 2009, we got the Roadster and six weeks later we sold our Acura NSX-T. We held onto our Honda Insight "just in case" until we realized we were never driving it. We sold the Insight, our last gas burner, in mid-2010.
I drive the Roadster far more than I drove the NSX, and I absolutely hate driving gas cars.
This didn't happen because of some genetic or political disposition. Cathy and I would have been perfectly happy with one EV doing half of our local driving. It happened because EVs offer a vastly superior driving experience. I'm perfectly happy to trade a relaxing stop in a six-hour drive for the smooth, instant acceleration of an EV, for the quite ride, for cheap fuel, and for the general satisfaction of driving electric.
I'll rent a gas car when an EV isn't convenient, but that hasn't happened once in the last four years, except for when we're on vacation and we're forced to rent a gas burner.
It's OK if you haven't spent enough time driving electric to understand what I'm talking about. It's even OK if you never get totally hooked on driving electric. But don't dismiss the value of charging below 90 kW for the rest of us.�
Oct 10, 2012
widodh I call this "destination charging".
I regularly take a trip in the Roadster, a 400km round-trip to Amsterdam which involves a lot of highway speeds, so I need to charge in Amsterdam.
With the Roadster on 16A it is doable, but not perfect, I'd rather have the 3x16A (11kW) charging with the Model S.
Most of the time I'm at my destination for a couple of hours before going to the next one.
Why would I stop at a supercharger for 45 minutes while my car can charge outside on Level 2 with 10 ~ 20kW while I'm doing my work?
Quick/Supercharging will co-exist with Level 2 charging.�
Oct 10, 2012
Kipernicus I think both RDoc and tomsax (and wido too) have valid points. There is no one solution, as different scenarios have different optimal solutions, especially when you consider the costs involved. Of course faster is better, but at what cost? While the infrastructure is in its infancy I'll take what I can get, which is why I opted to spring for the twin chargers. Even here in CA there are routes I want to take that don't yet have SC, but do have 70-80A level 2, so having 20kW capacity means less time that the wife and family are annoyed with me and my car :smile:�
Oct 10, 2012
Doug_G In the "real world", Supercharging is likely only to exist along major artery highways. I have no doubt that there will be plenty of need for Level 2 (hopefully higher power Level 2) along secondary highways and at destinations.�
Oct 11, 2012
Cottonwood I beg to differ. Its all a matter of degree. 15 minutes is way better than 2 hours, but 30 minutes is not so bad. Let's look at a long distance drive that I do. When I make the 300 mile trip from Boulder to Pagosa, climbing 3,000 ft and going over multiple passes, I need one top up on the battery. Let's call that 60-90 mile to avoid range anxiety going over the last pass, Wolf Creek.
If it is possible to make a downsized version of a supercharger, or some other DC standard that can charge at 40kW for a reasonable price, I think that it would be very, very useful. A 40kW charger only needs a 200A, Split phase, 240V panel, or a 100A, 3-phase, 208V panel. If the install cost can be cut by a factor of 10 to 40 and get 1/2 charge rate, there is a happy middle ground that can serve many EVs well.
- If I stop at an RV Park, with a 50 Amp, 14-50 outlet, that is 30 mph charging and I need 2-3 hours. These are essentially free to install, because the RV Parks already exist.
- If there is a supercharger on the way, the top up is 15-22 minutes. This is great, but the chances of a supercharger showing up on that route are pretty small. The supercharger install takes the 500 kVA 3-phase transformer and costs something like $400k to install.
- If there is a 40kW charger along the way, I need 30-45 min for the top up. That is way better than the 2-3 hours, not too much worse than the 15-22 min for the supercharger, and may actually be economical in the near term. This can be powered by one 240V, 200A panel, or more taps off the larger panel at an RV Park, and presumably can be built from 4 10kW Tesla chargers ($1,500 each, retail) with the associated control structure done for the supercharger. As a wild guess, $10-15k at an existing RV park.
�
Nov 8, 2012
eledille More rumours, supposedly info from Tesla employees, at the Tesla forum. Quite vague, though.
I've experienced exactly the same. When we bought our Think five years ago, it was the best performing EV available in Norway. It's a bit underpowered and not pretty, but a joy to drive nonetheless. Even that little plastic box of a car was able to turn both me and my wife into EV fanatics. I didn't expect that at all, we bought it because of the bus lane access and congestion charge exemption. All of a sudden both of us are trying our best to avoid the gas burner, which I used to be rather proud of. Now my wife is talking about selling the fossil to get another EV while we're waiting for Model S.
Several times per year we drive 435 km to visit her parents. There are two mountain passes. A 43 kW, or even 22 kW charge point somewhere along that route would be very, very useful, half an hour of 43 kW would be enough to complete the trip without worry. If I had to settle for 22 kW, I would still much rather take two half-hour breaks and drive a Model S than drive a gasser.�
Jan 2, 2013
TEG When I got the LEAF there weren't really many good options for J1772 charging in San Francisco.
So, I would not use the LEAF to drive up from the Palo Alto area to San Francisco out of fear that I might not be able to make it back.
Fast forward to now and there are J1772s scattered around SF, so I have made many trips there when I knew I would be near a J1772 spot for at least an hour. So, going to a movie, a meeting, convention, visiting a friend all work out now even with slow J1772 charging because I just need a little bit extra to have enough charge to make the trip back.
So, like tomsax says, the slow(ish) charging can be helpful if making a short range EV work for slightly longer trips if they are put in strategic "destination" locations.�
Jan 5, 2013
Brian H Yeah, there seems to be insatiable demand for that "finishing touch"!�
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