teslamotorclub: Elon tweet re: lack of instrument cluster part 1

Don't know what you think of this comment, but I see it confirming our previous speculation that model 3's interior is designed for a fully autonomous driving transportation experience
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I think it means there will be a projected HUD on the windshield. It's going to be something cool.
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Nothing in Elon's response eliminates HUD as a possibility. Maybe during part 2 of the unveil includes HUD, therefore making sense of the current lack of gauge cluster.
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Jhsq said: ?

Don't know what you think of this comment, but I see it confirming our previous speculation that model 3's interior is designed for a fully autonomous driving transportation experience
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Yes, I absolutely agree. The drivers at the event indicated that the interior design was intentional and deliberate.

The key pieces of information that are currently on the Model S driver screen (Speed, Cruise Control indicator, Autopilot Indicator, Drive Mode) are found on the main screen in the Model 3, so having this information on some sort of additional display would be redundant.

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I feel pretty sure we're talking about some form of augmented reality solution.
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kaess said: ?

Yes, I absolutely agree. The drivers at the event indicated that the interior design was intentional and deliberate.

The key pieces of information that are currently on the Model S (Speed, Cruise Control indicator, Autopilot Indicator, Drive Mode) are found on the main screen in the Model 3, so having this information on some sort of additional display would be redundant.

View attachment 170517
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It would be redundant to have on another screen, but some basic info can easily be moved to HUD. I'm hoping for HUD that shows at least speed, drive mode, and autopilot info.
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I think that statement is too vague to mean anything. You read into it full autonomy. I don't.
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Thread title is seriously misleading.
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Get real guys.

One of the primary objectives of Model 3 design is EASE OF MANUFACTURING so that they can ramp up production rapidly.

You won't see augmented reality or fancy projections type of unproven systems.
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Darren F said: ?

Thread title is seriously misleading.
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I agree. Nowhere did he say anything about autonomy or HUD. Clickbait.
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yesup said: ?

Get real guys.

One of the primary objectives of Model 3 design is EASE OF MANUFACTURING so that they can ramp up production rapidly.

You won't see augmented reality or fancy projections type of unproven systems.
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HUD technology has been around for nearly 40 years in one form or another. Having a HUD unit that could be inserted on either the left or right side would greatly reduce cost and increase part commonality between LHD and RHD (UK/Japan/AUS etc.) versions of the car.
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I'm putting my money on a HUD
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Interesting tweet from Musk: "Wait until you see the real steering controls and system for the 3. It feels like a spaceship." I imagine that this means a very fancy HUD, not just improved autonomous driving.

Update: or maybe not...now Musk says that the current steering wheel is not the real steering "system", so maybe no conventional wheel in the final car?
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Yes based on this you are right. Spaceship = HUD.

If one of the mods could update the title of the thread (HUD confirmed?), much appreciated!
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tentonine said: ?

Interesting tweet from Musk: "Wait until you see the real steering controls and system for the 3. It feels like a spaceship." I imagine that this means a very fancy HUD, not just improved autonomous driving.

Update: or maybe not...now Musk says that the current steering wheel is not the real steering "system", so maybe no conventional wheel in the final car?
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it is gonna BLOW AWAY the competition. this is gonna be awesome.
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I think HUD could be used for the views like the blue lane lines and car detection icons. And of course, turn-by-turn navigation.
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Drucifer said: ?

HUD technology has been around for nearly 40 years in one form or another. Having a HUD unit that could be inserted on either the left or right side would greatly reduce cost and increase part commonality between LHD and RHD (UK/Japan/AUS etc.) versions of the car.
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Not for BMWs. BMW HUD is not interchangeable between LHD and RHD cars.

HUD is not always ideal. I can't see my BMW HUD in the day because I wear polarized sunglass - and I am not willing to give up my polarized sunglass just to view the HUD.
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yesup said: ?

Get real guys.

One of the primary objectives of Model 3 design is EASE OF MANUFACTURING so that they can ramp up production rapidly.

You won't see augmented reality or fancy projections type of unproven systems.
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Musk can't help himself. While it will obviously will still have a steering wheel do expect surprises.
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Yeah.. change the title.. totally misleading.
I bet a HUD is actually less expensive than an instrument cluster.. Makes total sense to forego the cluster and just have the essentials projected onto the windshield... Seems Teslaesque to take it up one notch, and add at least a little bit of augmented reality... But I suppose that would be more involved, more expensive, and if, then probably only available as an upgrade..... Would be very, very cool though
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kaess said: ?

I think HUD could be used for the views like the blue lane lines and car detection icons. And of course, turn-by-turn navigation.
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that absolutely makes sense!
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HUDs are OK as long as you can turn them off.

They are neat toys but can irritate the crap out of you after awhile. I'd rather have an uncluttered view of the road, so they tend to stay off.

I'd never pay extra for one. Sadly some cars come with them as base level equipment.
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Jhsq said: ?

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The dashboard is supposed to be final with that single screen.
Now where will go all those mandated by law control and indicator lights?

My guess is the steering wheel will have fixed center similar to C5 steering wheel with control lights (simple leds).

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No steering wheel. Sidesticks. Makes sense, one model globally. Everything lined up in the center. Space for passengers while in auto mode. It's drive by wire anyways... Think about it.
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I doubt this would ever happen, but see that thin black strip that runs across the entire dashboard -- about 1" high?

I could see that as an information strip with things like speed, range, energy usage, audio and A/C settings, clock and temp, etc. Or even news headlines or stock quotes ticker-style. Or you can just turn it off completely, or set it to any trim color you want.

Yeah, I know, very expensive and different. But I think it would be really cool in addition to a HUD for the driver.

But no HUD and no instrument cluster? I think that's a big mistake. We shall see.
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peigenmann said: ?

No steering wheel. Sidesticks.
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Repeat after me - "No weirdmobiles!"
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I need to follow Elon's tweets more closely! Great info.
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The OP wasted my time. I'll not fall for that again.
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Drucifer said: ?

HUD technology has been around for nearly 40 years in one form or another. Having a HUD unit that could be inserted on either the left or right side would greatly reduce cost and increase part commonality between LHD and RHD (UK/Japan/AUS etc.) versions of the car.
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Wow! This is a great point!
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It's used in military aircraft, spaceships....
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peigenmann said: ?

No steering wheel. Sidesticks. Makes sense, one model globally. Everything lined up in the center. Space for passengers while in auto mode. It's drive by wire anyways... Think about it.
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Why stop there? What about the old school accelerator pedal? Two words: Thrust lever!
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Could there be a screen on the steering wheel/controls themselves?
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Check Mercedes F200 concept from the 90s. Sidesticks, no pedals, controllable from driver and passenger seat and worked well according to Mercedes. Ahead of its time though...

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If Tesla keeps the elongated steering wheel form factor, that is indicative of a pending HUD. A traditional steering wheel would protrude up into the HUD viewing area; hence the elongated (flat) steering wheel of the prototype cars.
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kaess said: ?

Yes, I absolutely agree. The drivers at the event indicated that the interior design was intentional and deliberate.

The key pieces of information that are currently on the Model S driver screen (Speed, Cruise Control indicator, Autopilot Indicator, Drive Mode) are found on the main screen in the Model 3, so having this information on some sort of additional display would be redundant.

View attachment 170517
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It seems like most of the things you can select on the S center screen are there, with a couple glaring exceptions. I don't see any indication of a way to access the rear view camera, and even more odd, I don't see anything on the energy usage or power, or a button that might lead to them.
Walter
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WarpedOne said: ?

The dashboard is supposed to be final with that single screen.
Now where will go all those mandated by law control and indicator lights?
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Nothing is mandated by law, as long as it is visible to the driver. So they can all be in the main centre screen and that would be good enough.
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Bimbels said: ?

It's used in military aircraft, spaceships....
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And Corvettes... since 2000.
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bpk6 said: ?

A traditional steering wheel would protrude up into the HUD viewing area; hence the elongated (flat) steering wheel of the prototype cars.
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No, not really. All current cars with HUDs have normal circular steering wheels with no problems.
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kaess said: ?

Y
The key pieces of information that are currently on the Model S driver screen (Speed, Cruise Control indicator, Autopilot Indicator, Drive Mode) are found on the main screen in the Model 3, so having this information on some sort of additional display would be redundant.
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Still missing the central portion of the AP UI and no place to show turn-by-turn directions, so it seems there needs to be something else.
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yesup said: ?

No, not really. All current cars with HUDs have normal circular steering wheels with no problems.
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Yes, you are correct. There are currently cars with HUD with traditional steering wheels.
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bpk6 said: ?

Yes, you are correct. There are currently cars with HUD with traditional steering wheels.
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Elon referenced the steering wheel in the drawing he posted on Twitter yesterday. He said it was a "cool one" (replying to someone asking why the test ride cars had such ugly steering wheels. It is open at the top...perfect for HUD.
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Got reports on the misleading thread title. Changed from "No HUD, Full autonomy confirmed by Musk" to "Elon tweet re: lack of instrument cluster".
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If you listen to most of the test drive videos from the model 3 reveal, the drivers made it a point to focus mostly on the ride, glass roof, acceleration etc. They purposefully stayed away from discussing the screen or UI of the screen unless directly asked. I think it is not the final concept as the screen is a big deal for Tesla in comparison to other car manufacturers and it is usually a key selling point. It was NOT Friday night. They seem to not want to show this idea and discuss it too soon. I love the Model S screen. Its a deal breaker. The model 3 screen actually appears as an "add on" the the way that it extends from the body of the car when looking in from the windshield. The Landscape UI also may not be the final version. I think that the control cluster will make perfect sense and effect the final screen at reveal. But the controls will NOT be on the screen in my opinion. It is too dangerous for me to Not know my speed because the passenger is doing something with the screen at the time. (adjusting temperature or playing music).. Visually, it takes too much to look that far right for this important information. Elon will do something cool!
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Centre of the steering wheel would have to hold an airbag. A screen couldn't be fitted over it.

So instead, could the IP be a ring of information which always remains upright as both the steering wheel and screen turn together? (so the screen is an annulus, not a solid circle)
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Bimbels said: ?

View attachment 170551
Elon referenced the steering wheel in the drawing he posted on Twitter yesterday. He said it was a "cool one" (replying to someone asking why the test ride cars had such ugly steering wheels. It is open at the top...perfect for HUD.
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Well the prototype didn't look open at the top, but it was flat. Either way makes sense to me if adding a HUD, but I think I would prefer a flat top steering wheel rather than no top.
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The Fury said: ?

Visually, it takes too much to look that far right for this important information.
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No, it does not.

The eye travel from the road to the left upper corner of the screen is shorter than your typical speedometer.

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The Fury said: ?

If you listen to most of the test drive videos from the model 3 reveal, the drivers made it a point to focus mostly on the ride, glass roof, acceleration etc. They purposefully stayed away from discussing the screen or UI of the screen unless directly asked. I think it is not the final concept as the screen is a big deal for Tesla in comparison to other car manufacturers and it is usually a key selling point. It was NOT Friday night. They seem to not want to show this idea and discuss it too soon. I love the Model S screen. Its a deal breaker. The model 3 screen actually appears as an "add on" the the way that it extends from the body of the car when looking in from the windshield. The Landscape UI also may not be the final version. I think that the control cluster will make perfect sense and effect the final screen at reveal. But the controls will NOT be on the screen in my opinion. It is too dangerous for me to Not know my speed because the passenger is doing something with the screen at the time. (adjusting temperature or playing music).. Visually, it takes too much to look that far right for this important information. Elon will do something cool!
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I agree-- I had one of these test rides and they did exactly that -- deflect discussion away from the screen and dash.. but my driver said, nope, no dash, all touchscreen, which I found very hard to believe. It also sticks out -- I'm sure that will be integrated like the S/X. I think the horizontal approach works, though. From the back seat at night, I can tell you the dash being totally dark was *very* strange to see. I can't believe it will stay like that.
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The Fury said: ?

If you listen to most of the test drive videos from the model 3 reveal, the drivers made it a point to focus mostly on the ride, glass roof, acceleration etc. They purposefully stayed away from discussing the screen or UI of the screen unless directly asked. I think it is not the final concept as the screen is a big deal for Tesla in comparison to other car manufacturers and it is usually a key selling point. It was NOT Friday night.
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That is not true. In one video where the test driver was Doug Field, VP of engineering, the single screen concept, speedometer widget position was the first thing he talked about.
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I can't imagine that it will stay like this either. The mass adoption of the Model 3 will not occur if the interior doesn't appeal to the masses. If it's too much of a departure from convention, it won't succeed.

But, I certainly will wait to see what develops.
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kaess said: ?

I think HUD could be used for the views like the blue lane lines and car detection icons. And of course, turn-by-turn navigation.
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Was my first thought when I saw the suggestion of HUD posted. Superimpose autopilot information. Also highlight possible dangerous objects.

LargeHamCollider said: ?

Could there be a screen on the steering wheel/controls themselves?
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The Model X had touch sensitive screens where they have the click wheels now at the prototype unveiling.

kevincwelch said: ?

I can't imagine that it will stay like this either. The mass adoption of the Model 3 will not occur if the interior doesn't appeal to the masses. If it's too much of a departure from convention, it won't succeed.

But, I certainly will wait to see what develops.
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Ha ha guess you aren't aware Tesla has more deposits in Three days then BMW 3-Series sold in North America in a year. They "ARE" selling to the masses.
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Hell, I would gladly pay extra for a decent HUD!
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I got tricked into the whole swiveling seat thing on the X. I'll keep my thoughts a bit more grounded this time. I don't see autonomous driving. It's way too soon for that. A fixed center on the steering wheel is possible, perhaps with an LCD screen for things like speed read out, but it would be pretty radical. A HUD is quite possible. I'll go with that. They might be able to engineer a HUD that is superior to any HUD seen before. But again, I feel I starting to imagine the 2nd row seats swiveling on the X again. I'll just go with a basic HUD, and a nicer steering wheel that looks rather snazzy.
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Skotty said: ?

I got tricked into the whole swiveling seat thing on the X. I'll keep my thoughts a bit more grounded this time. I don't see autonomous driving. It's way too soon for that. A fixed center on the steering wheel is possible, perhaps with an LCD screen for things like speed read out, but it would be pretty radical. A HUD is quite possible. I'll go with that. They might be able to engineer a HUD that is superior to any HUD seen before. But again, I feel I starting to imagine the 2nd row seats swiveling on the X again. I'll just go with a basic HUD, and a nicer steering wheel that looks rather snazzy.
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What swiveling are you speaking of? Never heard of this and wasn't presented in the initial unveiling with the prototype.
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This is a 3-year old video from Mobileye (AP hardware supplier). While the animations aren't pretty, it's the best demo of what I think of as an augmented reality HUD. I think it would be feasible to create a HUD with augmented reality that would display lane lines, turn-by-turn navigation, car detection, and more in real-time. AP 2.0 most likely will have several cameras to enable this functionality.

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Could it be more like this:

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kaess said: ?

This is a 3-year old video from Mobileye (AP hardware supplier). While the animations aren't pretty, it's the best demo of what I think of as an augmented reality HUD. I think it would be feasible to create a HUD with augmented reality that would display lane lines, turn-by-turn navigation, car detection, and more in real-time. AP 2.0 most likely will have several cameras to enable this functionality.
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But why are people still dreaming about all these fancy HUD?
The objectives of Model 3 design is ease of manufacturing, low cost and mass market. The minimalist dash and single screen fit into these objectives exactly, Other features like mechanical door handle, simple trunk design, are also compatible.

OEM HUD for BMW is being sold at around US$2,700, and you need engineering and software development. So we can be talking about 5-10% of the cost of the base model. Just does not fit in Model 3 objectives.
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mikevbf said: ?

Could it be more like this:

View attachment 170569
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M3 prototype steering wheel had the same oblong shape. I think that means HUD.
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There's no reason other than tradition that a center mounted touch screen can't provide all the details you need to operate the car. I'm looking forward to the new interior. I don't interpret Elon's text as meaning anything more than part 2 will explain in more detail how the center screen will be the only infomation source in the car.
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yesup said: ?

But why are people still dreaming about all these fancy HUD?
The objectives of Model 3 design is ease of manufacturing, low cost and mass market. The minimalist dash and single screen fit into these objectives exactly, Other features like mechanical door handle, simple trunk design, are also compatible.

OEM HUD for BMW is being sold at around US$2,700, and you need engineering and software development. So we can be talking about 5-10% of the cost of the base model. Just does not fit in Model 3 objectives.
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Don't confuse retail prices with ease of manufacturing and cost.

Aerospace manufacturers are using glass cockpits because the whole system is cheaper then individual gauges. Glass cockpits looks expensive but the cost of the whole system cost considerable less.

Model S 17" screen is a prime example costs dollars and looks expensive. Because you relate to Retail prices of tablets not the cost of the components.
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As I said in another thread (and sorry for the duplication): In addition to the usual info, e.g., speed, navigation, etc, Tesla might use a HUD to project, when visibility is marginal (or worse), the lines of the road as well as any vehicles exactly where they are in real life. By integrating these with AP 2.0 and realistic AI, drivers will have a much better chance of avoiding the multi-vehicle pileups we've seen lately caused by fog and whiteout conditions. Safety is #1 at Tesla and this would augment that. When visibility is not an issue, those road lines, cars, etc could be projected onto a virtual IP, leaving just speed, nav info, etc on the HUD...or everything on the projected/virtual IP.
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EcoHeliGuy said: ?

Don't confuse retail prices with ease of manufacturing and cost.
Aerospace manufacturers are using glass cockpits because the whole system is cheaper then individual gauges. Glass cockpits looks expensive but the cost of the whole system cost considerable less.
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I understand that, and you are choosing between two options.

But in the case of Model3, HUD is NOT NECESSARY at all! You can get all the info in the centre screen, and that's the whole point of the new dash design.

So why add the manufacturing cost (even if it is lower, it is definitely not insignificant) and time for assembling the dash?
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yesup said: ?

I understand that, and you are choosing between two options.

But in the case of Model3, HUD is NOT NECESSARY at all! You can get all the info in the centre screen, and that's the whole point of the new dash design.

So why add the manufacturing cost (even if it is lower, it is definitely not insignificant) and time for assembling the dash?
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I agree with you. I prefer the minimalist interior and simplicity of everything on one screen. My posts discussing "HUD with augmented reality" ideas are simply for the sake of discussion. I do not think a driver-focused instrument cluster is necessary. Things like the speedometer will of course be thoughtfully placed on the center screen within the driver's field of view, as is the case with the prototype.
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Could it be more like this:

View attachment 170569

yesup said: ?

I understand that, and you are choosing between two options.

But in the case of Model3, HUD is NOT NECESSARY at all! You can get all the info in the centre screen, and that's the whole point of the new dash design.

So why add the manufacturing cost (even if it is lower, it is definitely not insignificant) and time for assembling the dash?
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Because Elon can't help pushing the envelope. As an investor in TSLA stuff like this sometimes makes me nervous. But, at some point you have to sit back and trust that he is not only going to do something really cool, but also functional.

The picture of steering wheel I showed above is a Mercedes concept they envision bringing to the world in maybe 20 years. Elon is bring us this stuff in less than 2 years!
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(I believe) Augmented Display HUD would make sense from a minimalist, cost point of view. Not especially expensive in 2016/2017, and all the dials, needles, readouts would be in software...so cheaper. They could literally reuse most of their code from the S gauge..difference would be the UI parts. (By the way, I like the S gauge UI design aesthetically so much better than the center console UI design)

small lcd screen on the steering wheel is entirely possible. Imagine the steering wheel's center is inset rather drastically, with a smaller lcd screen on it. Perhaps the steering column is mounted more horizontally than some cars so the viewing angle is closer to having a traditional cluster.

I hear the concerns about the need for an airbag to be in the steering wheel (I don't know whether that's the only viable place for an airbag or not), but my answer to that is - an lcd screen can be very very very thin and light. there is already plastic/rubber/other material that has to pop away for the airbag to deploy. Having an incredibly thin lcd screen there would not change that (I believe).
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kevincwelch said: ?

I can't imagine that it will stay like this either. The mass adoption of the Model 3 will not occur if the interior doesn't appeal to the masses. If it's too much of a departure from convention, it won't succeed.

But, I certainly will wait to see what develops.
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Its going to be different because the car is designed around autopilot or autonomy.
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yesup said: ?

I understand that, and you are choosing between two options.

But in the case of Model3, HUD is NOT NECESSARY at all! You can get all the info in the centre screen, and that's the whole point of the new dash design.

So why add the manufacturing cost (even if it is lower, it is definitely not insignificant) and time for assembling the dash?
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I was replying more towards to suggestions of cost of manufacture and mass production. Tesla Isn't trying to build VW Beatles here. They are building premium products that consumer demand.
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Ryan P said: ?

Its going to be different because the car is designed around autopilot or autonomy.
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I don't want autonomy. As for the autopilot, that doesn't mean the driver doesn't need to know what's happening, especially when they're you know, driving.
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Bimbels said: ?

View attachment 170551
Elon referenced the steering wheel in the drawing he posted on Twitter yesterday. He said it was a "cool one" (replying to someone asking why the test ride cars had such ugly steering wheels. It is open at the top...perfect for HUD.
Click to expand...

This is a great point; it also fits his "spaceship" design well. HUD is happening, IMO.

yesup said: ?

No, it does not.

The eye travel from the road to the left upper corner of the screen is shorter than your typical speedometer.

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Uh, don't forget: it's easier to glance at a gauge than a digital readout that's constantly changing every half-second.

yesup said: ?

But why are people still dreaming about all these fancy HUD?
The objectives of Model 3 design is ease of manufacturing, low cost and mass market. The minimalist dash and single screen fit into these objectives exactly, Other features like mechanical door handle, simple trunk design, are also compatible.

OEM HUD for BMW is being sold at around US$2,700, and you need engineering and software development. So we can be talking about 5-10% of the cost of the base model. Just does not fit in Model 3 objectives.
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Why are you quoting BMW prices for a $35,000 car? Elon already said the 3's upgrades will be cheaper than the S.

The 2012 Prius, MSRP of $24k, had a "Advanced" trim package which included a simple HUD, a moonroof with solar-powered ventilation (panels and all), a premium hard-drive navigation system, and satellite radio for $3500.

The HUD alone is not expensive, seemingly. Who told you that? What sources, besides BMW?

yesup said: ?

I understand that, and you are choosing between two options.

But in the case of Model3, HUD is NOT NECESSARY at all! You can get all the info in the centre screen, and that's the whole point of the new dash design.

So why add the manufacturing cost (even if it is lower, it is definitely not insignificant) and time for assembling the dash?
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A HUD will hardly affect the dash: it just needs a port for the projector to shine through. Why do we want a HUD?

Hmm....ask any Tesla Model S owner if their main screen has ever lagged, skipped, or needed to be restarted. That alone completely disqualifies only having a screen. What if there's an electrical issue that requires the car to stop immediately, but the main display lags out?

What about night-time driving in the country? Just to see your speedometer, you'll need the entire screen on (unless they go OLED), killing your night vision (especially as it is pretty close to the driver) And, even if you're OK with that, it sounds annoying for passengers who want to sleep. (For night time driving alone, I sincerely hope they go for OLED screens. It's only $200 more than an LCD screen for the 14" panel in the Lenovo X1 Yoga. The pixels literally turn off!).
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ikjadoon said: ?

Why are you quoting BMW prices for a $35,000 car?
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Because Model 3 targets BMW 3 series.

The HUD alone is not expensive, seemingly. Who told you that? What sources, besides BMW?
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We don't know the exact price, but my point is that is cost is not trivial, and it takes time to install it during the assembly. And this goes against the Model 3 objectives as HUD is a luxury, not a necessity.

Hmm....ask any Tesla Model S owner if their main screen has ever lagged, skipped, or needed to be restarted. That alone completely disqualifies only having a screen. What if there's an electrical issue that requires the car to stop immediately, but the main display lags out?
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For most cars with virtual instruments like Audi or Volvo, I don't think there is duplication of warning lights or indicator in both screens. It is usually indicated in only one of the screens. So if that screen does not function, you have the same situation. Just like the traditional instrument panels, which are digital anyways in many cars. If they malfunction, there is no backup indicator.

So, I don't see how it is different for Model 3 with one screen.

And HUD is not an ideal backup - as I frequently cannot see the HUD in my BMW because of my polarized sunglass.

What about night-time driving in the country? Just to see your speedometer, you'll need the entire screen on (unless they go OLED), killing your night vision (especially as it is pretty close to the driver)
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It is very easy to for them to program a night time mode with a black screen with just the essential info.
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You keep mentioning objectives of the Model 3, but you will not find any official statements of your said "objectives". They were only concepts in forum discussions.

Try to stay on track with facts
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EcoHeliGuy said: ?

You keep mentioning objectives of the Model 3, but you will not find any official statements of your said "objectives". They were only concepts in forum discussions.
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What? I thought this was well known.
Check out About Tesla | Tesla Motors - Elon has repeatedly said that Model 3 would be a "mass-market affordable vehicle".
Elon has also stated that on hind sight, he has made the Model X too complicated to design and manufacture, and that Model 3 would be much simpler and much faster to manufacture.

Stop Assuming Tesla's Model 3 Will Be Late -- The Motley Fool

"the Model 3 is very specifically being designed and engineered 'for ease of manufacturing.' After all, ease of manufacturing is a requisite for a car that Tesla hopes to make half a million (or more) of every year."

So, low cost, mass-market affordable and ease of manufacturing are part of Model 3's design objectives.

And no, I am not making this up.
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S'toon said: ?

I don't want autonomy. As for the autopilot, that doesn't mean the driver doesn't need to know what's happening, especially when they're you know, driving.
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32,000 people die in the US every year from automobile accidents and fully autonomy is going to save their lives, its a great thing.

I think Tesla will include a HUD with information that improves as the car improves. Similar to the center computer screen.
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Instead of HUD you may see driving data displayed on the steering wheel.
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yesup said: ?

We don't know the exact price, but my point is that is cost is not trivial, and it takes time to install it during the assembly. And this goes against the Model 3 objectives as HUD is a luxury, not a necessity.
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If we are talking about a HUD, it will almost certainly be an option.

Tesla is in a position where so much is standard on the base Model 3, that it has to find ways to make people want to pay more for a higher-spec version. If a HUD helps sell a $4000 tech package, that will improve Teslas profit margins, and that will be good for Teslas long term viability.
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HankLloydRight said: ?

I doubt this would ever happen, but see that thin black strip that runs across the entire dashboard -- about 1" high?

I could see that as an information strip with things like speed, range, energy usage, audio and A/C settings, clock and temp, etc. Or even news headlines or stock quotes ticker-style. Or you can just turn it off completely, or set it to any trim color you want.

Yeah, I know, very expensive and different. But I think it would be really cool in addition to a HUD for the driver.

But no HUD and no instrument cluster? I think that's a big mistake. We shall see.
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What if there's a HUD, but the display is not on the windshield, but in the area you mention above?

Projected like a HUD from the back of the steering wheel?
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smak said: ?

What if there's a HUD, but the display is not on the windshield, but in the area you mention above?

Projected like a HUD from the back of the steering wheel?
Click to expand...

More likely to be projected from the back of the "tablet" into the middle of the windshield. The more functionality they can move to the middle of the car, the easier it is to make LHD & RHD variants. Also, it makes servicing easy - no need to rip the dash apart to fix a broken HUD.

Personally, can't see the need for a HUD at all...

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yesup said: ?

So why add the manufacturing cost (even if it is lower, it is definitely not insignificant) and time for assembling the dash?
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I donno, maybe because center-mounted speedometers suck?
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Ryan P said: ?

Its going to be different because the car is designed around autopilot or autonomy.
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Which will not be included in the base model. The $35k car has to be driveable.
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My bet is either data (digital speed) on the steering wheel -- the inspiration being Formula 1 -- or if the airbag is in the way there will be a small screen mounted on the column just behind the wheel. It would rotate with the wheel and be visible between the spokes of what would probably be a three spoke wheel.
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sillydriver said: ?

My bet is either data (digital speed) on the steering wheel -- the inspiration being Formula 1 -- or if the airbag is in the way there will be a small screen mounted on the column just behind the wheel. It would rotate with the wheel and be visible between the spokes of what would probably be a three spoke wheel.
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That makes the most sense. Tesla are holding back a surprise, which means it wont be anything that has already been done. Its something they wont want to give any other manufacturer time to copy before 3 is ready to go.
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Model3 dashboard prototype:

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tkizzy said: ?

small lcd screen on the steering wheel is entirely possible. Imagine the steering wheel's center is inset rather drastically, with a smaller lcd screen on it. Perhaps the steering column is mounted more horizontally than some cars so the viewing angle is closer to having a traditional cluster.

I hear the concerns about the need for an airbag to be in the steering wheel (I don't know whether that's the only viable place for an airbag or not), but my answer to that is - an lcd screen can be very very very thin and light. there is already plastic/rubber/other material that has to pop away for the airbag to deploy. Having an incredibly thin lcd screen there would not change that (I believe).
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I was thinking about that. There's already wiring to the steering wheel, so why not consolidate there?

But it's just not spaceshippy enough. That'd either be a HUD or stuff in the dashboard. But, if they went dashboard, they had better be careful about the glare.
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But it's just not spaceshippy enough.
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"Open the garage door please HAL"

There you go.

But the centre of the wheel will have to be screenless to accommodate the driver airbag.
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malcolm said: ?

"Open the garage door please HAL"

There you go.

But the centre of the wheel will have to be screenless to accommodate the driver airbag.
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The cover to the airbag doesn't hit
You in the face, it stays attached
to the wheel and moves out of the way, so could a screen. Although I don't feel they will do that.
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Ha ha guess you aren't aware Tesla has more deposits in Three days then BMW 3-Series sold in North America in a year. They "ARE" selling to the masses.
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I'm aware of the number of deposits. I'm not aware that any of these have been purchased and delivered (i.e., "sold"). Are you?

I'm not saying the car isn't popular right now; it certainly looks great on the outside. The inside looks immature to me, and my biggest concern about the car is how it will eventually be perceived by the public even before it hits the ground. Around work, everyone knows I am a Tesla fan, and everyone has negative things to say about the console.

I'll be happy if I'm wrong, but the console is my concern. But, like I said, I'll wait and see.
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EcoHeliGuy said: ?

The cover to the airbag doesn't hit
You in the face, it stays attached
to the wheel and moves out of the way, so could a screen. Although I don't feel they will do that.
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Yes I believe that the airbag cover is prescored/weakened in some way to split predictably.
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mikevbf said: ?

Could it be more like this:
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I hope not!
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One more thought ...

The small screen behind the wheel rotates with the wheel, but software counterrotates the displayed information so the digital speed is always upright regardless of wheel position. This isn't really necessary since people tend to look at their speed when going straight, but it would be a really cool gimmick with no added variable cost.
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kevincwelch said: ?

I'm aware of the number of deposits. I'm not aware that any of these have been purchased and delivered (i.e., "sold"). Are you?

I'm not saying the car isn't popular right now; it certainly looks great on the outside. The inside looks immature to me, and my biggest concern about the car is how it will eventually be perceived by the public even before it hits the ground. Around work, everyone knows I am a Tesla fan, and everyone has negative things to say about the console.

I'll be happy if I'm wrong, but the console is my concern. But, like I said, I'll wait and see.
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Deposits aren't sales. But the number of deposits would have declined after the unveiling from 115k, instead more then doubled to 280k. People don't just give someone a $1000, then go oh I don't like the product, and not get their deposit back.

Everyone has personal opinions, but the interior isn't the only factor in puchasing a car.

Have a look at the Model S and X unveiling prototypes. Production cars look nothing alike but design cues are there.
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EcoHeliGuy said: ?

Deposits aren't sales. But the number of deposits would have declined after the unveiling from 115k, instead more then doubled to 280k. People don't just give someone a $1000, then go oh I don't like the product, and not get their deposit back.
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Did Tesla announce how many reservations have been retracted?

EcoHeliGuy said: ?

Have a look at the Model S and X unveiling prototypes. Production cars look nothing alike but design cues are there.
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Quite aware; I recall that 5 years ago when I reserved, and that's what I'm hoping for the Model 3 as well.
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kevincwelch said: ?

I'm aware of the number of deposits. I'm not aware that any of these have been purchased and delivered (i.e., "sold"). Are you?

I'm not saying the car isn't popular right now; it certainly looks great on the outside. The inside looks immature to me, and my biggest concern about the car is how it will eventually be perceived by the public even before it hits the ground. Around work, everyone knows I am a Tesla fan, and everyone has negative things to say about the console.

I'll be happy if I'm wrong, but the console is my concern. But, like I said, I'll wait and see.
Click to expand...

The interior is not finished. I believe they purposefully held back and showed the interior they did on the prototype because there are some really amazing cool things in store - Elon's tweets yesterday indicate that there will be big changes to the console/dash/steering. All will make sense after Part 2 of the reveal...he said.
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tentonine said: ?

Interesting tweet from Musk: "Wait until you see the real steering controls and system for the 3. It feels like a spaceship." I imagine that this means a very fancy HUD, not just improved autonomous driving.

Update: or maybe not...now Musk says that the current steering wheel is not the real steering "system", so maybe no conventional wheel in the final car?
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That's what tweaked me. Maybe no steering wheel at all; maybe a right hand yoke/joystick? I don't know the legalities around that; I thought you need a mechanism to permit steering even in the event of electrical failure.
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Tesla will not use an open top steering wheel. Anyone who has driven with one(including me) knows they are very dangerous
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There's been a number of vehicles without an instrument cluster directly in front of the driver. Some have already been posted above.

Above is the instrument cluster of the 2004 Nissan Quest.
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A HUD is a great idea for the 3, really. I don't think it costs much to project a picture onto the glass. If it's a high cost option for some cars, it's probably because of perceived value, not actual cost; it probably has a huge profit margin. It will probably be something you can turn on and off. If you are happy with minimalist center display, leave the HUD off. If you want the driver side instrument cluster, turn it on. It could be brilliant.

The funky steering wheel designs I don't think we will see. It might be slightly flattened on the top and bottom, but it can't be completely broken at any point or be overly radical, as it has to actually function appropriately as a steering wheel when you are actually steering around corners. Anything more than a 45 degree rotation, and some of the funky steering wheel designs break down in functionality.

You could have something that is totally different from a steering wheel, but I think that is too radical for the 3.
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It would be cool to have HUD, not sure how practical it would be in the case of direct sun glare or facing some idiots high beams. I would think these situations you can't see your HUD display?

It would be really fantastic if model 3 is designed for full autonomous that the car can take over the drive seamlessly. However, I don't think in under 2 years of time Tesla's able to work out all R&D to make it a full autonomous car and get it accepted by governments of all the country the 3 is sold to. With the 3 must be on time and budget conscious I doubt lack of driver dash is for full autonomous.

I have a hunch that the 3 may have a dash kind of like the Prius dashboard display seen in below picture and I could sort of relate it to elon's comment about spaceship like display. However I am not sure if this is less or more expensive than a hud display on windshield. After all, it may well be that there will be a secondary driver dash display just like s & x but our discussions are all Tesla's plans for free marketing...

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J1mbo said: ?

Personally, can't see the need for a HUD at all...

Click to expand...

More truthfully, you can't see anything at all....ya got a hood in the way!

And anyway, what's someone from London doing with a LHD Morris?
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sljonesdigital said: ?

Model3 dashboard prototype:

View attachment 170623
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Uh huh... That leans a bit toward my thought that there may be no steering wheel at all... just a joystick like device. That would certainly cut costs. And there's no reason that it can't work - as long as the safety/legislative issues are resolved. Pilots control highly responsive jet aircraft with joysticks every single day.

But... the risk is that you're going to alienate some of the more traditionalist potential buyers.
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I personally wouldn't buy the car if it didn't have a steering wheel. I love to drive and I am not ready to give that up just yet... I do want auto pilot for my commute and long trips but sometimes I want to carve up a road in manual old fashioned driving style. I bet I am not the same. Plus if you get rid of most of the driving of the car what's the point for having fast acceleration if you can't really control it?

Another thought I had was something similar to an HUD but it actually projects onto the dash. They could use a reflective coating of some sort to make it work well. Similar to projectors with special screens. It would probably work with polarized glasses AND wouldn't be affected by exterior lighting conditions.
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ummgood said: ?

I personally wouldn't buy the car if it didn't have a steering wheel. I love to drive and I am not ready to give that up just yet... I do want auto pilot for my commute and long trips but sometimes I want to carve up a road in manual old fashioned driving style. I bet I am not the same. Plus if you get rid of most of the driving of the car what's the point for having fast acceleration if you can't really control it?

Another thought I had was something similar to an HUD but it actually projects onto the dash. They could use a reflective coating of some sort to make it work well. Similar to projectors with special screens. It would probably work with polarized glasses AND wouldn't be affected by exterior lighting conditions.
Click to expand...

A joystick does not imply only autopilot. Joysticks can be highly responsive and very precise. I remember 30 years ago, some discussions that the steering wheel was likely to go away in favour of a joystick like device. We may actually be arriving at that point.
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Think of video games. Does anyone like using a joystick to control the cars in video games? Not really. I sure don't want to drive a car with a joystick. I don't see a joystick ever getting past concept car phase.
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J1mbo said: ?

Personally, can't see the need for a HUD at all...
Click to expand...

My thoughts too.

There are many cars with centre mounted instruments with no HUDs.
No HUD is shown in Model 3 prototype, no HUD in the expensive Model S and Model X.
Why would Tesla put a HUD for Model 3 when it is not necessary to do so?
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sandpiper said: ?

A joystick does not imply only autopilot. Joysticks can be highly responsive and very precise. I remember 30 years ago, some discussions that the steering wheel was likely to go away in favour of a joystick like device. We may actually be arriving at that point.
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Yeah but how often do you use a valet or let someone else drive your car for some reason or the other? My wife and I leave the kids at home with the grandparents when we go on a mini vacation for our anniversary every year. If there was a joystick I guarantee you my parents would not even sit in the car. I don't let others drive my cars often and I probably would be pretty protective but the car needs to work like a car in those cases. You can't just change the way the car drives completely you need to allow for normal use cases.
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sandpiper said: ?

Uh huh... That leans a bit toward my thought that there may be no steering wheel at all... just a joystick like device. That would certainly cut costs. And there's no reason that it can't work - as long as the safety/legislative issues are resolved. Pilots control highly responsive jet aircraft with joysticks every single day.

But... the risk is that you're going to alienate some of the more traditionalist potential buyers.
Click to expand...

While we're at it, let's drop the pedals, too! Accellerate/brake by pushing the stick front/back!

You can easily make fine steering angle adjustments with a wheel that rotates through ~1080 degrees (3 rotations). You'd get 1/10 of that with a joystick. It would be much harder to control with the same level of granularity.

Plus you'd be forcing a major portion of your buyers to drive with their non-dominant hand - lefties (me) in LHD countries, and all the righties in RHD countries.

The flying analogy doesn't really work - I've flown a few (prop) planes with sticks (DA-20 between the legs, SR22 sidestick), and it's completely different. It's hard to explain, but flying a plane is about pointing it in a general direction, not following a specific path on a ribbon of asphalt, while dodging obstacles (cars, pedestrians, etc). If you were driving a car around in an empty parking lot, that'd be one thing. On a busy street?

When you were a kid, did you ever try to ride a bike with your hands crossed (left on right hand grip, right on left)? It was one of those dare things we tried once. You'd get a few feet before crashing. I think a side-stick car would last about as long before someone ran into something.

Of all the possible dealbreakers, a joystick would be huge. 50% cancellation of orders, minimum. It would never fly with the general public (no pun intended).

yesup said: ?

My thoughts too.

There are many cars with centre mounted instruments with no HUDs.
No HUD is shown in Model 3 prototype, no HUD in the expensive Model S and Model X.
Why would Tesla put a HUD for Model 3 when it is not necessary to do so?
Click to expand...

Have you driven a car with center mounted gauges? I have (Mini Cooper), for 8 years. It's one of those things you put up with, you may even get used to it, but no one I've ever spoken with likes it.

A HUD or steering wheel mounted display is key.
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tga said: ?

Have you driven a car with center mounted gauges? I have (Mini Cooper), for 8 years. It's one of those things you put up with, you may even get used to it, but no one I've ever spoken with likes it.
A HUD or steering wheel mounted display is key.
Click to expand...

But have you tried the one in Model 3?
The large screen allows the left and upper edge of the screen much closer to your line of sight than other centre mounted instrument.
It should actually be less eye travel from the road than a traditional speedometer.
That's why you don't need a HUD; and you should give it a chance before writing it off.

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no HUD also OK , put your figure on it
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Tdriver said: ?

Instead of HUD you may see driving data displayed on the steering wheel.
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If so, it will have to be a steering wheel that doesn't turn, because when the wheel turns the data will rotate. GPUs aren't powerful enough, and displays are not responsive enough, to smoothly compensate for rapid rotation of the physical display so that the data being displayed remains legible.

In any case, the steering wheel is much too close to the driver to be useful as a data display area. You have to drop your gaze too much and focus too closely to easily absorb the data being displayed.
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peigenmann said: ?

Check Mercedes F200 concept from the 90s. Sidesticks, no pedals, controllable from driver and passenger seat and worked well according to Mercedes. Ahead of its time though...

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end of '90 or beginning of '00 I don't remember but I believe I have saw a report of the tv Show "turbo" (french TV) about a Fiat car, all about electric where you could give your wheel the one person next to you.
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ecarfan said: ?

If so, it will have to be a steering wheel that doesn't turn, because when the wheel turns the data will rotate. GPUs aren't powerful enough, and displays are not responsive enough, to smoothly compensate for rapid rotation of the physical display so that the data being displayed remains legible.

In any case, the steering wheel is much too close to the driver to be useful as a data display area. You have to drop your gaze too much and focus too closely to easily absorb the data being displayed.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't want flying displays heading my face when the driver airbag deploys. I doubt a display would be mounted on the steering wheel.

I highly believe it would be a dash display like the prius. Looking at the videos the Model 3's dashboard is lower profile and kind of setup nicely like the dash display on the prius.
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This is how Toyota solves the center display problem in the Prius V. I find it OK to use, but it's awfully busy, even with essential vehicle systems and performance, and nav/environmental/entertainment data up on separate screens. It needs a "declutter" function. The one big screen on the 3 will need this even more. So I do hope there's an alternative solution coming.
Too much data is the same as no data.
Robin
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Lack of Instrument Cluster:

Everyone's personal opinions aside, nobody knows whether the eye-travel-distance to a conventional instrument cluster is really less compared to the Model 3's location for the same info. Until you sit in the driver seat and see it for yourself, it is just an assumption you are making; that's it.

HUD option:

HUD hardware is actually very cheap to manufacture. R&D of software makes up the largest chunk of the cost. Tesla can easily incorporate a simple HUD system without breaking it's bank, based purely on the economics of scale. I mean, Navdy is a startup trying to recover a lot of their R&D and ramp-up costs for their 3rd party HUD system, and they charge $500 right now, for their product. Tesla could easily get something better on the M3 for under $100.

A full windshield HUD system is what would make ME feel like I'm in a spaceship. But again, who knows what Elon meant? We'll see. That system for sure can't come standard. It will probably be a paid option, if they even have it. Until we know for sure, I can only dream of having this in my M3 in 2018:

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Bimbels said: ?

I think it means there will be a projected HUD on the windshield. It's going to be something cool.
Click to expand...

I'm also betting it will be something like this. It won't add a lot of complexity to the build and it fits with his "spaceship" comment as well.
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mikevbf said: ?

Could it be more like this:

View attachment 170569

Because Elon can't help pushing the envelope. As an investor in TSLA stuff like this sometimes makes me nervous. But, at some point you have to sit back and trust that he is not only going to do something really cool, but also functional.

The picture of steering wheel I showed above is a Mercedes concept they envision bringing to the world in maybe 20 years. Elon is bring us this stuff in less than 2 years!
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No, that's the new display for the Model S upgrade.
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Making a system like that display clearly in all road and weather conditions including bright sunlight strikes me as extremely difficult. I'll believe it when I can see it...

Tesloid said: ?

A full windshield HUD system is what would make ME feel like I'm in a spaceship. But again, who knows what Elon meant? We'll see. That system for sure can't come standard. It will probably be a paid option, if they even have it. Until we know for sure, I can only dream of having this in my M3 in 2018:
View attachment 170670
Click to expand...

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yesup said: ?

Not for BMWs. BMW HUD is not interchangeable between LHD and RHD cars.

HUD is not always ideal. I can't see my BMW HUD in the day because I wear polarized sunglass - and I am not willing to give up my polarized sunglass just to view the HUD.
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Got rid of my Ray Bans for just that reason. I recommend Serengetti Driver's Gradient glasses. A technology ideal for pilots and Tesla owners. News - Serengeti Eyewear
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I think it's hilarious that Elon tweets back about how it will make sense when part 2 will make more sense, and people are going OMG IT'S GOING TO FULLY DRIVE ITSELF. AUGMENT REALITY.

Elon tweets "Had a Egg McMuffin, it was good" and people will go Model 3 will make breakfast for you.
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Yeah. Elon goes "it's like a spaceship" - I'm surprised no one has gone "OMG it's going to have superchilled liquid oxygen"

But a wheel mounted screen doesn't have to be rectangular and the display section of the wheel assembly doesn't have to rotate necessarily. Only the bit you hold has to rotate (obviously)
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For those not in the know, HUD is a representation of AR.
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raysspl said: ?

For those not in the know, HUD is a representation of AR.
Click to expand...

Not necessarily. Some HUDs are not integrated into reality at all. It's just like projecting your phone's GPS app onto the screen (i.e., they have no idea what's going on "behind" the screen).
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yesup said: ?

Not for BMWs. BMW HUD is not interchangeable between LHD and RHD cars.

HUD is not always ideal. I can't see my BMW HUD in the day because I wear polarized sunglass - and I am not willing to give up my polarized sunglass just to view the HUD.
Click to expand...

In this post, ikjadoon posted a link to TI's DLP-based HUD projector. It specifically says it works with polarized glasses (how, I'm not sure)

There's a pretty cool demo video on the TI page, but it won't embed here.
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peigenmann said: ?

No steering wheel. Sidesticks. Makes sense, one model globally. Everything lined up in the center. Space for passengers while in auto mode. It's drive by wire anyways... Think about it.
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souslik said: ?

Why stop there? What about the old school accelerator pedal? Two words: Thrust lever!
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At first, I just wanted the stick/lever combo... but come to think of it, wouldn't motion sense be even better?

J1mbo said: ?

More likely to be projected from the back of the "tablet" into the middle of the windshield. The more functionality they can move to the middle of the car, the easier it is to make LHD & RHD variants. Also, it makes servicing easy - no need to rip the dash apart to fix a broken HUD.
Click to expand...

Why? Couldn't it be a little module that plugs into a hole in the dash?
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teslamotorclub

Thứ Bảy, 31 tháng 12, 2016

Elon tweet re: lack of instrument cluster part 1

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