Jul 31, 2012
sagebrushnw I've been driving a Ford Fusion Hybrid for over three years that has remote start from the factory that works great in hot or cold weather (to preheat or pre-cool the car...if the car is not in a garage). If the ICE is "warm", it does not start to heat or cool the car using the remote...the heater or A/C work in electric "mode".�
Jul 31, 2012
stopcrazypp Wouldn't some of that at least have to do with the expectations set up from Tesla being more communicative and providing more transparency/information on their development progress (which is then amplified by plenty of speculation on these forums)? Perhaps things would be different if Tesla didn't discuss the car at all until (the real) production start, although many of us here would become extremely impatient for more information.�
Jul 31, 2012
doug This needed to be acknowledged.
�
Jul 31, 2012
brianman Your avatar cracks me up daily, doug.
You should probably create a caption contest post for it.�
Jul 31, 2012
jkirkebo Strange indeed. I've seen references to Volvos headrests vs. safety for years, and Edmunds clearly stated the 2013 XC90 has fixed headrests: http://www.edmunds.com/volvo/xc90/2013/safety.html�
Jul 31, 2012
dsm363 It has definitely been a moving target with Tesla. There probably is a difference between a company like Tesla designing a car from the ground up and Mercedes releasing a new version of an established model. Mercedes would be more experienced in the build process and have things less likely to change.�
Jul 31, 2012
AustinPowers True in that case, but these are combined with an active anti-whiplash system called WHIPS, which I haven't heard the Model S has. If it does have it, I stand corrected.�
Jul 31, 2012
Bearman Thank you for the clarification AustinP. Regarding the head rests, its actually not about them being fixed or not. In the volvo system its the seat itself that tilts backwards and up (by the hip) so you fall backwards instead of being pushed forward by the seat when hit from the rear.
Here is a video that shows the mechanics:
�
Jul 31, 2012
kevincwelch Acknowledged!
Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Tapatalk 2�
Jul 31, 2012
jerry33 The 2010+ Prius and the Leaf do the same. It's only ICE-only cars that can't pre-cool as far as I know. However, the Leaf has many shortcomings and the Prius has an ICE.�
Jul 31, 2012
MikeK Thanks for sharing that! Pretty slick.�
Jul 31, 2012
Brian H "Note the advanced drive-train!"�
Jul 31, 2012
Brian H Curiously ... the parallel topic on the TM Forums has been consigned to outer darkness -- "Access Denied".�
Jul 31, 2012
Super Gizmo I started the thread regarding deletion of vanity mirrors on TM Forums but now I am not being allowed to post there and boy I have been lambasted by some of their employees acting as regular forum posters for criticizing the decision to delete the features with some personal attacks by a couple of them! I guess they don't want any criticism of their decisions at this stage.�
Jul 31, 2012
Tommy I follow the TM forum as well; how did you determine that the posters in disagreement with you were Tesla employees and not regular forum posters with a dissenting opinion.�
Jul 31, 2012
Designtime
I do agree that the expecations were set up by Tesla, and they have more often than not delivered on that. I just don't see this strategy in itself as a virtue. It is a business decision (that I agree with) to have early stakeholders help them deliver the Model S.
The communications lately have been comprised of a lot of "We don't have an answer for that yet" or airline style "enhancements" like removing lights to improve headroom. I guess I am ready for some good news to bump of my enthusiasm again.�
Jul 31, 2012
stopcrazypp I find your theory about employees posing as posters highly unlikely. The way Tesla operated from the start shows they welcome and value opinions from their customers (evidence of this is setting up consumer advocates and having journalists take a back seat to customer test drives, something that pissed off a few journalists). Plus the quickest and most effective way to get Tesla to know about your concerns is to contact your customer advocate. I find it more likely your thread had the typical troll or maybe even some of the customers that prompted this decision (they might not care about the vanity mirror but might care more about the head room savings). Last I visited the TM forums (a long time ago), it was a mess (full of spammers and trolls and very little moderation).�
Jul 31, 2012
jerry33 Mostly the spammers are gone now except for the "general" sections where you still see some. However, the TM site has problems with accounts not being able to post and it appears as if they have to do frequent restore from backup which sometimes deletes postings. Most of the time they can do a replay and get the posts back but sometimes not.�
Jul 31, 2012
Super Gizmo Actually there was one guy who personally attacked me for starting the thread on more than one post. He insinuated my intention was to short the TSLA stock. The interesting part is I can no longer post there so I can't even reply to personal attacks. Their web master has somehow blocked me. By the way I have never bought or sold stocks of any kind. We have conservatively invested in GO bonds.
I have nothing against TESLA. I love the company and EV technology. WE have been "Green" for many years having added a Prius to our collection of cars, even owned a Volt for 10 months but sold it because our turn was approaching for the Model S. We also have a 5.2 kw solar system on our roof. We put down our deposit on Model S 3 years ago and now the time has come to configure the car. We are opting for a fully loaded car with all options excluding the rear seats and premium audio. We were just very disappointed that they decided to remove vanity mirror lights (which my wife uses all the time) I guess they do not want any criticism of their decisions at this point because they are trying to meet the deadline. However this will come back to bite them in future when the auto reviewers get more time to examine the interior and start criticizing the lack of features inside the car. So far they have only had a few minutes test driving the car. TM may find they may have to cut back on production instead of ramping up above 20K a year if they do not improve the interior especially after the rush of initial few thousand EV fans take their deliveries and more critical buyers compare the car with other cars in the same price range. Most people are not as EV crazy as us few. As for the claim of Model S being the world's best Premium/Luxury car, that is an awfully ambitious statement with the car lacking basic features found in inexpensive cars.�
Jul 31, 2012
kevincwelch I think this is the issue that is striking most people in the heart.
No one single amenity deficiency is driving people away from this car (at least I don't see it that way). It is the lack of several basic amenities that are fairly standard on many vehicles that are 1/4 the price that is forcing people to reconsider.
I don't think Tesla has to worry about capturing the EV crazed market. They'll get those. They need to get people who wouldn't have considered an EV either because they don't know about them or they feel EVs aren't as good as ICE vehicles. If the average person sat in a Model S and was asked to pay $85,000 for it, they wouldn't. I still believe they wouldn't even after test driving it and hearing lecture upon lecture about how advanced it is and how much better it is for the environment.
At the end of the day, most people want something that comfortably gets them from A to B that will last. IMO, can't be comfortable without the amenities.�
Jul 31, 2012
stopcrazypp If you only recently joined their forum and that was your first thread (or close to it) I wouldn't exactly blame them for being suspicious. TSLA has lots of shorters and if the thread seems like it was mainly posted to initiate a reaction and/or spread discontent for this decision rather than being constructive in getting Tesla to change it (the proper channel would be to contact your customer advocate, Tesla monitors the forums intermittently but I don't think they take reactions from forum posters as seriously as comments reflected through customer advocates), it would seem very suspicious because that is usually a sign of astroturfing. Astroturfing is very popular nowadays. I can't really judge without looking at the thread first (assuming it wasn't deleted already).�
Jul 31, 2012
ddruz As promised, I contacted my rep at Tesla asking for confirmation whether the mirrors on the sun visors are still present. I told him I'd post his answer on the forum which was "please feel free to confirm that the mirrors under the sun visors have not been removed." This was the same rep I quoted to start off this thread. He confirmed that it was only LED lighting that had been removed. However, Tesla is so responsive to their clients that I personally believe that if enough people courteously contact their Tesla reps requesting that the LED lighting be reinstated that it will be seriously considered.�
Jul 31, 2012
jimbakker666 As stopcrazypp mentioned, I don't think these would be Tesla employees. I would bet it's 'fanboys' who are outraged that you dared criticized Tesla, which sucks because it stifles legit criticism (which in my opinion is always a plus).�
Jul 31, 2012
jimbakker666 I agree nearly completely, except that I'm not sure at this point that they'll even capture all of the EV-crazed market because the cost of the vehicle is too high. They've positioned themselves in a strange demographic, and at least to me they seem to have marketed themselves as the answer to 'everything ICE' which opens them up to a lot of valid criticism. They're not going to get the everyday luxury market without the bells and whistles, and they're not going to get the stretch-to-own and commuter market with their expensive annual maintenance and tire replacement. 'Thrilling to drive' only goes so far.
Personally, I think if the fanatics continue shouting people down for critiquing them, Tesla is going to have a lot of cancelled reservations when issues (like the vanity mirror thing) aren't resolved in the final copy and journalists get ahold of it for a full review. I hope that's not the case, because I want them to succeed so I can own one down the road. But people paying upwards of $100k for a vehicle have certain expectations, not only from the vehicle but from the company itself.�
Jul 31, 2012
SCW-Greg I believe ddruz has it correct here.
Very typical phenomena going on in this long thread... lack of timely communication to a concern someone has, with just a bit of time to stew about it in the void, and the mind descends in to the worst case scenarios in no time. Happens with people being suspicious of others (cheating, demotions, etc), or hearing someone went to the hospital, and the next thing you know, you start thinking the worst outcomes. Human nature. The challenge for Tesla will be in managing these concerns, quickly... as well as avoid them in the first place.
I try to temper all my responses on hearsay (business and personal) until I've learned from official (public) sources.
Of course for those of you who about to lock down on your design any day now... I feel your pressing concern. I have the luxury of time with my reservation.�
Jul 31, 2012
Super Gizmo Unfortunately we don't have that luxury and have to commit to an expensive over $100K car without firm answers very soon. I spoke to three different customer advocates since yesterday and on each occasion I was put on a short hold and then informed that there will be mirrors without lights but there was no chance of their changing back to installing any lights over the mirrors. So now we have to decide if my holding a flashlight in the dark on my wife's face will work. Sounds really absurd doesn't it that we should have to resort to this.�
Jul 31, 2012
bonnie I believe there are still interior lights.�
Jul 31, 2012
AndyM A new demographic...
Thousands of randy teenagers are thinking "So, you're saying this car has NO lights in the back seat?!"�
Jul 31, 2012
gmontem
I doubt a couple of lights meant to light up the floor will do justice, especially with black leather/cloth seats.
Sent from my HTC Titan using Board Express�
Jul 31, 2012
bonnie I've had all black interiors (and on the Roadster) and I lose stuff in there all the time. My BMW had a vanity mirror light and it didn't help light up the interior one little bit. (And it had flimsy excuses for cupholders in the front only and it was a GREAT car.)
Seriously, we don't know about the lighting. That's why I said 'I believe'.
Before, everyone was upset over the shade. Then the center console. Now this. I believe, no ... I KNOW I'll be relieved when cars start shipping.�
Jul 31, 2012
brianman Incorrect. If you're going to knock folks for overreacting, don't overstep by generalizing...
You're closer to the mark on this one. The non-employee defenders of the October interior are nearly extinct.�
Jul 31, 2012
bonnie Okay, it wasn't EVERYONE. But that wasn't my point.
Since it was obfuscated by the use of the word 'everyone', I'll clarify: While we've been waiting, there have been a number of issues that have caused a great deal of angst. We beat one into the ground and then up pops a new one. It's a giant game of whack-a-mole.
�
Jul 31, 2012
dennis So will Elon. :biggrin:�
Jul 31, 2012
mulder1231 Funny, this tread shows a banner ad from LightingDirect.com--shop now, free shipping!
Maybe that's what we need to do, add some blue LED rope lighting, like they have in limo's:
�
Jul 31, 2012
Norbert In theory, a magnet might do, if the crossbar or roof has metal close enough to the surface.�
Aug 1, 2012
jerry33 Might be kind of hard to make the magnet stick to the aluminium.:smile:�
Aug 1, 2012
stopcrazypp There are still map lights near the rear view mirror so I don't think lighting up the front seats will be an issue. Or are you only talking about the rear seats?�
Aug 1, 2012
Super Gizmo I just posted this on Tesla thread from a different computer. We'll see if they manage to block this post too. Here is the post -
Steve_W and rd2 I totally agree with you. By the way I did not start this thread because I have a hidden agenda against TM. Contrary to some rude posters like Timo accusing me "of shorting the Tesla stock" I have never even owned any stock of any kind in my life. We have our money invested in conservative GOs and other Govt. backed bonds and have done well enough to pay cash for everything including our house and cars etc. By the way Timo I did well enough to retire at the age of 50 so my wife doesn't need to hire me as her driver(as you rudely suggested) but if you are hard up and worried about the Stock Market she would consider you for the job.
Anyway, I admire Elon Musk and what he has achieved at such a young age with SpaceX, Tesla and the Solar Co. He reminds me of late Steve Jobs. We reserved our model S three years ago after seeing the first prototype. My wife and I have always been excited about "Green" technology. We have had a 5.2 kw solar system on our roof for years, we bought the original Prius years ago and now have a 2012 Prius along with a BMW and a MBZ roadster. We also owned a Volt for a while but sold it recently in anticipation of getting the Model S.
We want Tesla to succeed. That is why we are spending over $109000 before rebate on this car which is not chump change. We received our "time to build email" last week and were very excited but over the weekend read the shocking report on another thread in the Tesla forum about deletion of vanity and rear lights. Considering the price of this car, and Mr Musk's statement of building the best premium/luxury car in the world, this was shocking to us. The car is already missing basic elements in the interior of most cars - like the rear arm rest, rear cup holders etc but this seemed like the last straw. I am not the only one upset over this latest deletion of lighted vanity mirrors. There are over 16 pages of customers discussing this topic on the Tesla Motors Club thread (which by the way I did not start)
TM has to realize that the very same reviewers who were initially impressed by the handling and performance of Model S in their short test drives will comment about the basic missing elements of the car's interior when they have more time to examine the vehicle. Secondly, when the initial euphoria of owning a brand new performance EV dies down people and their wives, friends, relatives etc will start noticing the lack of some basic features in the car and the word will get around. Not many discerning folks will want to spend their hard earned dollars on a car lacking features which are standard on basic cars. Lastly, men are not going to be the only drivers of this car. Women, including my wife, drive all different models and types of cars. So, unless this car was designed and reserved to be for "Men Only" TM needs to take into consideration some basic needs of women in an automobile like lighted vanity mirrors which all the other manufacturers cars have available for them.
So, I think it is very important that the higher up decision makers at TM take more notice of this before it is too late and the "final" product hits the road or some irate customer sends out a press release over a national news wire about why he/she decided against buying the Model S after waiting for years.�
Aug 1, 2012
dsm363 Great post. I don't see how that would get blocked so hope it stays up. I think things like the vanity mirror light (while annoying it may not be included) can be relatively easily fixed aftermarket. You shouldn't have to do this but it sounds like your excitement about green technology, solar system and your admiration for the company and Elon Musk might be enough to overcome the disappointment about some interior features that probably should be there. The best way for Tesla to succeed is obviously for people to buy the car. I'm not suggesting you should buy the car if those interior features are deal breakers for you but if there are something that can be easily fixed later or have the possibility of being fixed by Tesla I think you'll be happy with your purchase. It's a personal decision of course.�
Aug 1, 2012
Super Gizmo Thank you for your input. The problem is I have searched all over the internet (Google,Amazon etc) and have not been able to find a small stick on battery operated light which could fit behind the sun visor (next to the mirror). The only small light I found was the type to stick on a key but the light would be pointing straight ahead. It won't work on the visor. Others are too large.
By the way my post is finally on the Tesla site. They did not block it or maybe posting from a second computer worked. Hopefully it will get a positive reaction.�
Aug 1, 2012
dsm363 Would these work? This wouldn't be ideal but I'd imagine they wouldn't get used much. Maybe there is a 12V to whatever plug this uses that could power it and you'd simply disconnect it when you didn't need it. Kind of a hack though.
Ribbon LED Strips
No longer needed! See below.�
Aug 1, 2012
gmontem
I was talking about the rear seats. From the look of things, the removed rear map lights were the only source of overhead lights for the rear occupants. I intend to use the Model S as a family car, with my baby and wife seated at the back. The rear lighting is helpful for my wife who needs to look for things in the diaper bag, etc. The suggestion of using a smartphone to light up the place is ridiculous. People need to realize not everyone have the same smartphone usage habits. Not everyone filly charges their phone or even have it accessible. My wife for example puts hers in her purse. It is amazing how much crap she can cram into those things!
Sent from my HTC Titan using Board Express�
Aug 1, 2012
GeorgeB Hi everyone,
First of all, thanks to everyone throughout this thread who had faith in us that we were doing the right thing. Your support is always greatly appreciated.
So, what�s going on� This thread started as the result of a change to our website specs page and a response from one of the Tesla Team about rear seat reading lights and the desire to increase visibility for tall customers. The following highlights exactly what we�ve been working on.
The beta Lighted Vanity Visor that first showed up in Model S was not acceptable to us from an appearance, function or size standpoint. So we rejected it and immediately started working on another version. In the meantime, we started delivering cars. We did not want to be delivering cars without Lighted Vanity Visors when our webpage specs said otherwise�so we changed the specs page to be more accurate at that moment in time.
The removal of 2nd Row Reading lights from the specs page is also an �accuracy of the moment� issue. We removed these from the specs page because we were working on another initiative that might impact what type of light we could use in the back seat for a reading light. Basically, we found a way to potentially add a few millimeters of additional headroom in the back seat. As part of that initiative, we didn�t know for sure if we would be able to use the same light fixture, or even the same type of reading light going forward�so we deleted it from the specs page to be more accurate at the time.
Both of these issues are temporary issues, and for those of you who have been following us for a while, you know how we operate. When something doesn�t meet our expectations, we dive right in to fix it. We work hard to find the best solution possible, then we implement it. We try to keep all information as up to date as possible, but in today�s world, that sometimes causes problems from a communication standpoint. Nevertheless, we always feel as though it is better to be as accurate and up to date as possible, even if it makes things a little tougher for us from time to time.
You will soon see another change to our specs page. You will see the addition of 2nd Row Reading Lights. We have been able to accomplish what we set out to do with the rear seat headroom, and will be able provide reading lights in the same place as originally planned. We focused first on the headroom adjustment because that is more complicated within the car itself, then we focused on the lights and placement. To avoid any further questions about what will happen next, let me be perfectly clear... there will be a few early cars delivered that do not have 2nd Row Reading Lights. However, we will be happy to install them in the future (at no charge of course). The wires are already in place so this is not a major event.
You will not see the Lighted Vanity Visor back on the specs page for a little while longer because we are still working on getting the form factor and functionality exactly the way we want it. It will be lighted, it will have a mirror, and it can easily be retrofit into all cars. In fact, we will be encouraging everyone to get the retrofit.
So just to be clear, all cars that get delivered are set up to have reading lights in 2nd row seats and Lighted Vanity Visors. Those that don�t have the latest and greatest when they receive their car can have these items retrofit at no additional cost.
I hope this helps clear up all questions regarding this issue. Please understand, we are very, very serious about everything that goes into Model S. We are doing all we can to make every millimeter count while still listening to what our customers and future customers want. We are going to have lights in the right places, a shelf that was asked for by customers in the console area, and a lighted visor mirror that you can look into and smile. And when all is said and done, that is what we are really striving for�you smiling.
GeorgeB
�
Aug 1, 2012
dsm363 Thanks GeorgeB. You're awesome as always and your input here (even on vacation) is amazing and appreciated.�
Aug 1, 2012
brianman Firstly, thanks George for updating us! As you have probably gathered, we're starving for information as we impatiently wait for our wheels.
A request: In the future, could edits to the Specs page that involve removing or "weakening" a feature be accompanied by either a short blog post or a notation on the spec page (or a linked page) about the rationale for the change and what the "plan of record" (i.e. an abbreviated form of the above)? It would go a long way in both avoiding the forum drama and building brand trust and loyalty.�
Aug 1, 2012
pguerra Thank you George for the much needed clarification.
And just in time too....a financial analyst emailed me asking very specific questions about my order Sig #1246. I have not yet responded to him, however I think I'm going to end up recommending to him to buy TSLA while it's down and before the ramp up in car production. Then hold the position over the ramp up and reassess your position in the following quarter and sell into the strength unless you see further room to go based on sales, cancellations, warranty issues, etc. Then put deposit for Model X....
I feel more satisfied and less irked now that Tesla has answered something that I find important to me. There's always room for improvement, and this is a good start at addressing the six issues (now four) that are important to me. Thanks again.�
Aug 1, 2012
BYT_P1837 Thank you George!�
Aug 1, 2012
Todd Burch George, I posted something similar in the other thread, but to reiterate:
Thank you. This is the type of thing that will set Tesla apart from the other auto companies. Not the lights...but this simple blog post is the kind of thing that restores my faith and makes me want to tell friends to go to a Tesla store and buy.�
Aug 1, 2012
loganss To echo everyone else ... THANK YOU George for that update.
This is how a car company should be!�
Aug 1, 2012
bonnie Ditto. Thank you, George.�
Aug 1, 2012
doug The man knows how to turn a phrase. :smile:�
Aug 1, 2012
ckessel Does Tesla make the folks receiving cars aware of things like this in the works? I'm glad Tesla iterates fairly rapidly, but the downside is the difficulty in knowing exactly what comprises a Model S at any particular point in time...which of course leads to rampant speculation on obsessive fan sites. It also means it's hard to look at a model on the floor today and know if it's reflecting what you'd be buying.
I'm not sure what the answer is, but I think it's important info to make available to folks that have to lock in. Probably also good to have on hand when a reviewer tests the car for an extended period and really looks hard at these little features.�
Aug 1, 2012
MikeK Thanks to GeorgeB for the clear and unambiguous answer! I hope, in the future, that this sort of information can be shared more readily. For instance, if ddruz's contact at Tesla had been able to simply share exactly this information, I doubt very much that the thread would have gone beyond a few postings because everybody would have understood and appreciated what Tesla was doing.
Happy to hear the news, and I will now go back to obsessing over my color choice.�
Aug 1, 2012
jomo25 As always, thanks again George for the active communications. I admit, it would be if clarifying this didn't always have to fall to you as I'm sure you are busy with many other details and responsibilities. But as you can see, a little communications could go a long way in avoiding meltdowns among the masses�
Aug 1, 2012
SCW-Greg My thought, if these were always a known feature, despite unsatisfied with the current lighting solutions, wouldn't it have been better to leave the feature posted... and explain any car not wearing the lights, was just an interim car while the fix comes? Would this audience be more at peace than the opposite? Like the stink this thread created?�
Aug 1, 2012
AndyM Customers are fickle beasts... It's very likely a "no win" situation for Tesla.�
Aug 1, 2012
Beavis I am not blaming TM for our behavior. Gotta look into the mirror.�
Aug 1, 2012
brianman While sometimes that's true, it's often more about customer variety than customer fickleness.
For example, I would have strongly preferred they did what he suggests...
... but I'd want the "explain" to be in a public and persistent place -- like a blog post or "release notes"-type thing that doesn't "vanish" but is reliably available. It doesn't need to be anything with fancy formatting. Just simple text like the readme.txt files of old.�
Aug 1, 2012
doug I don't know. The situation described by GeorgeB is rather nuanced and those kind of details are likely muted as they get passed down the line. Like I said above, sounds like things are in flux, and with so much going on, that's a lot to keep up on.�
Aug 1, 2012
Beavis I agree with you, Doug. It is a tough call.�
Aug 1, 2012
ddruz FABULOUS NEWS! Thanks George B for explaining things in detail. Can we terminate this thread now and get the positive vibes flowing again? Mahalo.�
Aug 2, 2012
stopcrazypp Probably the best thing was to at least put out a blog post, even if an item was removed from the spec list (which probably had to be done just so it's not false advertising for the first few cars). I liked the suggestion of there being an annotation or a blog post for changes to the specs, just to prevent the same kind of reaction. As the production of the Model S gets ramped up and things get finalized, we'll have less of these issues, but it's a good thing for Tesla to keep in mind for their other cars (like the Model X).�
Aug 2, 2012
Super Gizmo What a wonderful great response from George B and TM. This is what sets Tesla apart from other automobile manufacturers. This is what sets Elon Musk apart from the CEOs of other companies. My wife and I are grateful that TM responded to our and other customers concerns so promptly. We were devastated that we would have to cancel after waiting all these years. Well, we are confirming our "Build your Tesla email" today and now we can hardly wait to get the car. Personally I don't see any shortcomings in the car now. There will always be some features which can be added later.
For future reference, if there had been a better line of communication from TM regarding these features I and and others like me wouldn't have been venting our frustrations over these issues on this and the other forums. But hey, that is in the past as GeorgeB put it, we have a Tesla smile on our faces today!
It is time to close these negative threads and wait for our gorgeous cars with big grins on our faces!�
Aug 2, 2012
Adm Maybe it's us, not them......�
Aug 2, 2012
bonnie +1. Tesla is not at fault here. I haven't witnessed any other company providing an equal level of transparency.�
Aug 3, 2012
ckessel Well, devil's advocate I suppose, but with most companies you walk in and buy the exact car you're looking at, so you can think of that as being completely transparent as far as the car you're buying.
Tesla is asking people to put a refundable deposit down on a car that hasn't been made and double that in non-refundable deposit for a car still undergoing changes, thus it's not as crystal clear exactly what you're receiving. That's going to generate a fairly high level of anxiety in a lot of folks, an anxiety that will typically manifest in wanting information. Couple that with any latent concerns about Tesla's long term viability on top of that and that's a lot of anxiety.
Until Tesla shows some long term profit and stability, they're going to have an understandably nervous (even if excited) customer base. I'm not defending excessively panicked, nit-picky behavior, but I can understand what's causing it.�
Aug 3, 2012
brianman Indeed. That's a key part of the drama about "not knowing enough" and "what you 'know' just changed".�
Aug 3, 2012
strider False. Every year people put down deposits for the next model year car with a variety of manufacturers based on speculation and leaks (concept cars and sneak peaks to journalists). The company then goes dark for many months and then they simply deliver the final production vehicle and you can take it or leave it. Some of the speculation and leaks will be accurate and some will not. It's no different w/ Tesla. Compared to the concept (Alpha) some things have stayed and others haven't. The difference is that other companies don't show the iterations of cars like Tesla does. I agree that they shouldn't change published specs after the fact but they're learning too.�
Aug 3, 2012
ckessel Without knowing the size of those deposits and whether they're refundable, it's tough to say if that's a comparable situation. If it's a $99 refundable deposit, that's not a very meaningful comparison. It's also not the norm for most buyers for most manufacturers. With Tesla, it's the only way to buy and will be the only way for a long time (no walk in and buy).�
Aug 3, 2012
strider You're acting like the car will never be "done" and every person who ever buys a Tesla product will plunk down their cash and in the 3 months to have their car built the specs will change. You are being ridiculous. This situation is solely related to a new product launch and will not be the normal experience for buyers. They will be able to walk into a store, sit in (and drive) a car, and buy or order based on that experience. That's how it was with Roadsters for anyone who bought after the initial batch was delivered and it will be the same w/ Model S.
Also, I "walked in and bought" my Roadster. It was built on spec and I decided it was close enough to what I wanted that I would buy that one instead of waiting 3 months for one to be built.�
Aug 3, 2012
dsm363 I agree. These are growing pains for the first 1,000 or so buyers. Things will settle down overtime. That doesn't mean small things may change but if you order a 1.0 product and lock in and they make the transition to a 1.5 version or something they'd probably just do what they did with the Roadster and ask you if you're ok with the new version or if you want your money back. They have to pick a transition point and some people will be on the wrong side of it.�
Aug 3, 2012
SCW-Greg I don't believe Kessel's being ridiculous. He stated it's the only way to buy now "for a long time." Like you say while they're in start up mode. Which may take a few years before they can evolve to something different. With the current mall store configuration, they will not be selling off the floor either, nor will they carry inventory nearby. Not at those locations anyway. The already existing full (more) typical "dealer" show rooms where the Roadsters have been, will likely accommodate delivery on the spot, if the model on hand is what you want.�
Aug 3, 2012
spatterso911 FWIW, I am definitely stepping out of my comfort zone, as I NEVER buy the 1st year of a car model, let alone the first year of production from a company new to producing their own vehicles (Roadster = Lotus + Tesla). I'm doing it now, because the timing is just right, I want to capitalize on CA incentives, and I've dreamed of having an electric car for many years. It's causing me to make a leap of faith, and in that, unless and until I see major (I mean non-correctable) concerns with what is delivered to the first owners, I am keeping the faith.�
Aug 3, 2012
Designtime Ridiculous? This forum has turned into a more active Fisker Buzz. When you can buy a Model S and know exactly what car you will get the need for transparency will vanish. The level of communication from Tesla is not benevolence, it is a business requirement. The talk of people cancelling or deferring their reservations has elicited a response. As a shareholder, I am glad for this. Without this response, this car will only sell to the true believers.
I am stunned at how personally some seem to take criticism of Tesla.�
Aug 3, 2012
Lyon I feel pretty much the same way. I am willing to go without some of the features that I might get on similarly priced vehicles from other companies so that I can get the EV power train. People chose one car over another based upon their own prioritization of available features, price, value, comfort, etc. For ME, the EV part does outweigh the vehicle not having many features that I could get if I spent the money on a Mercedes or Audi or Lexus. But hey, we all prioritize these things differently and I won't fault someone for choosing to hold off or not buy at all because they see things differently than me. I also think that, as Tesla continues to improve Model S, they should try to offer as many of the more-or-less standard features on the vehicles in similar price ranges. It just makes sense if they want to sell the maximum number of cars, right?�
Aug 3, 2012
bonnie I think the pushback is coming from the continuous recycling of the same message in multiple threads. That's what did it for me. I've seen Plenty of criticism of tesla go by without comment - just would like discussions instead of continual complaining and stirring up fud from unsubstantiated rumors.
And to some, that makes me a fan incapable of critical thinking - so be it.�
Aug 3, 2012
Norbert You mentioned a point I was just going to bring up.
I think this frenzy (not uncommon on this forum) started when several people (not only on this forum) dropped remarks mocking about Tesla "fanboys". Others gave the "remember Eberhard" signal, and low-post-count members popped up firing each other up with Tesla-is-doomed-unless-they-do-so-and-so messages. And other related themes were warmed up and cooked up as well.
So the mood turned towards showing off how critical one can be.
But who is going to criticize the criticizers?
No offense, was just in a mood to rant.�
Aug 3, 2012
W8MM I was repeating my desire to know what I was buying before signing a MVPA. Obviously not a reasonable request. Some people take this as sign of negativism. So be it.
My post count may be low, but my sign-up date sure isn't July 2012.
After some professional bashing by a July 2012 poster, I'm outahere. Please enjoy Tesla without me.�
Aug 3, 2012
SCW-Greg +1! The dust will settle soon enough, and in a matter of months, this will all be history. Elon's business acumen will see this through. There's simply too much momentum behind it all now.�
Aug 3, 2012
SCW-Greg Hey if someone bashed you personally, that's wrong. (just turn me loose on them, I'll take care of 'em for ya!) This frenzy will settle down in just a few months. Everyone's just nervous about the unknown. And heck yeah, if my number was up this week, I'd be concerned too. Certain amount of faith required for the earliest of adopters. The forum is better off with you here than not. Diversity is always good. IMHO.�
Aug 3, 2012
strider So 3 months is a "long time"? That's what is making me crazy. I said model introduction, not start-up mode. This will all be moot in 3 months. In 3 months you'll be able to walk into a store and see the absolute final car that you will receive when you order. That is what everyone is wound up about.
If you need more info than you currently have and need to lock in within the next 3 months then you should defer. Period. This was one of the reasons we dropped from Sig to General Production.
They absolutely can sell off the floor. Spec cars can be housed at service locations and can be brought over to the store or the customer can visit the service center to take delivery. They will end up building spec cars if there is a gap in the line. They did this with Roadsters. It's the right way to run an assembly line. But that is not what ckessel was complaining about.�
Aug 3, 2012
bonnie So I went and looked at the post again. You might want to also look at it again. He disagreed with you, in the same tone you'd disagreed with him. That's all. I really don't see the bashing. And my post that you quoted wasn't directed at you. Not sure why you took it that way.
As far as join dates go, everyone is welcome. I'd like to see you stick around, you've had a long history and experiences to share. But our new TMC members are also welcome and should feel free to express their opinions, also.
Just my two cents.�
Aug 3, 2012
Designtime For what is worth W8MM, I hope you change your mind. Even with the occasional in-fighting this is the best place to get information on what should be a pretty great car.�
Aug 3, 2012
SByer I've avoided speaking up because, well, I do know ASCII is a super sucky low bandwidth information transfer, and I like to assume best intentions. And, frankly, I waited only 2.5 years for my car, and some Model S folks have now been waiting longer. But there is an incredible sense of vouja-dais. From the lack of communication to the ever-changing specs. Tesla tries <very> hard, but they are running fast and lean. Ship and iterate. It's a far better strategy for paradigm shifts than 3-year development cycles, but there are loose ends flapping in the breeze. It sometimes sucks being a customer of that, but I would so go through it again, including the very uncomfortable meeting in Menlo Park after the price increase, to get where I am now.
Do not stop complaining; if customers don't complain, ship and iterate has no advantage. But do avoid personal attacks. Assume everyone here has the best intentions; the mods work hard to keep it that way. And if you don't have first hand knowledge, or second hand knowledge from a viable source, think twice about guessing - that's how those big gaps in ASCII bandwidth get filled with Mr. Evil.
This is the longest time I've spent on any forum (augh, the day the WELL ruined USENET!!!). Reasonable arguments are fine, ad hominem, not so much.�
Aug 3, 2012
Norbert There is a place for that as well, however what happened here was a loss of confidence when there wasn't a real reason to lose confidence.�
Aug 31, 2012
NigelM Completing the loop from Model-S-subsite-and-design-studio-being-updated
http://www.teslamotors.com/models/specs�
Sep 1, 2012
spatterso911 Still no update on the lighted vanity visors though...I wonder what is happening on that front...�
Sep 1, 2012
contaygious Definitly coming. I spoke to a few reps about it. They were trying to keep the visors thin for tall people like me to have more visibility and still gt lights in there,�
Sep 1, 2012
MikeK Oh! That reminds me. I had never really looked at the visors before. When I was at Menlo Park recently, I checked out the visors in two of the cars. One was lighted, with mirror. The other just had the mirror. I assume that neither of these is the final design, but that they were earlier versions. I will be interested to see what the final product looks like!
�
Sep 2, 2012
shokunin I can see why they wanted to redo it. Those are cheesy and ugly.�
May 14, 2013
Suzieq As a 5'7" driver, I can appreciate that you want visibility. A sunvisor that is wide enough so that it's lowest rotation blocks the sunglare when the sun is at 10-20 degrees above the horizon should not negatively impact your visibility. You just rotate it until it's high enough not to obstruct your view.
What am I missing here? A rotating visor can block any amount of vertical view from zero at horizontal to the maximum depth of the visor at vertical. The current visor is 4 1/8" deep at its widest point. Most car visors are 4 1/2" to 6". They are not fixed, so can be rotated to an appropriate level for any height driver. When the visor is narrow, and the driver is not tall, they are not useful in blocking sunlight at low angles.�
Không có nhận xét nào:
Đăng nhận xét