Sep 2, 2014
ToddRLockwood Beyond the Supercharger: Teslas Other Charging Network - Corporate Intelligence - WSJ
These public HPWC's (High Powered Wall Connectors) will be appearing at hotels and resorts across the U.S. over the next few years. Here's what's installed so far...
Tesla Motors | Premium Electric Vehicles
The small red icons on the map are HPWC's. The larger red icons are Superchargers.
It is possible to use a HPWC without Dual Chargers in your Model S, but it will charge at 29MPH instead of 58MPH.�
Sep 2, 2014
mknox As much as I applaud Tesla and these establishments for installing HPWCs, I do worry that it makes Tesla vehicles even more "elitist". Why not install 100 amp Clipper Creek / Sun Country units that will deliver exactly the same rate of charge to a Tesla with dual chargers, but also allow pretty much every other EV on the continent to plug in as well?�
Sep 2, 2014
ItsNotAboutTheMoney Because
a) they're paying for them
b) they want to strengthen the brand
c) they want to get other manufacturers to adopt their connector
Besides: what other BEVs travel far enough to need to stay in a hotel?�
Sep 2, 2014
taurusking When I read this article it makes me feel that the money I will be spending on buying MS is worth each and every penny... I agree with you...why not install 100 amp Clipper Creek..but my question to you is are other EV car manufacturers contributing in installing these super chargers? Just wondering�
Sep 2, 2014
JohnQ I've been debating this in my mind. I understand why the hotel/restaurant would do so: Model S drivers tend to have a higher disposable income and the charging stations cost less than a Sun Country unit.
Plus, there's nothing to prevent the development of a "reverse" J1772 adapter that allows Volts, Leafs and Sparks to plug into an HPWC.�
Sep 2, 2014
ecarfan Agree completely. No other EV can be used, practically speaking, for long distance travel. The HPWC is a less expensive approach to providing L2 charging than the Clipper Creek units. And if the other EV manufacturers want to get serious about EVs they can make an adaptor that fits the Tesla connector. I'm sure that Tesla will provide the necessary technical specs if requested. All Our Patent Are Belong To You | Blog | Tesla Motors�
Sep 2, 2014
ZsoZso After 2 years of driving an iMiev I completely agree with your sentiment behind the question. Seems like Tesla is the only company to install even 10kW chargers, the others max out at 6.6kW. While supporting standards is a nice idea, I am really frustrated by all the other manufacturers who have no intention to supply EVs with infrastructure allowing inter-city travel. They are all targeting local city-driving only.�
Sep 2, 2014
Curt Well, Tesla Roadsters can. And they could use the 100A J1772, but cannot use the Model S HPWC.�
Sep 2, 2014
djp Agreed 100%, and I wrote Ownership with the same concerns. If they really want to advance EV adoption they should support common standards for L2 and make the stations available to all EVs. They could still get the branding benefits and use their own hardware by putting a J1772 plug on an HPWC - not hard to do.�
Sep 2, 2014
ToddRLockwood Another reason why a HPWC-to-J1772 adapter would be a useful item, but who would make it and how many would they sell?�
Sep 2, 2014
Teo I think the European HPWC isn't released yet but is expected to arrive before the end of this year. Is that correct? I wonder if it will be compatible with other EVs. Because the European HPWC will already have the Mennekes plug, it will be really annoying for other EV owners if they arrive at a hotel and can't charge. I hope Tesla doesn't do that.�
Sep 2, 2014
wycolo Isn't that what Henry's CanII is all about?
It sure is sweet to see Tesla Red Dots in places like Ticonderoga and Binghamton NY.
--�
Sep 2, 2014
djp He's running into compatibility issues, which is one of the risks of using adapters with proprietary plugs. Plus this is bigger issue than just Roadsters- long range Leafs and Volts are coming, and those owners will rightly be pissed when they pull into a hotel and find a Tesla-only L2 station. The elitism doesn't put Tesla in a good light, and runs counter to their mission of furthering EV adoption.�
Sep 2, 2014
wycolo Sorry to hear of compatibility issues. Reminds me of Schneider's implementation of J1772 where they would not modify their handshake to allow Roadster usage.
Clipper Creek's J1772 is of course 100% with Roadsters and MSen.
Ideally a 3rd party like Sun Country could infest North America with Clipper Creek 100A beauties without raising anyone's hackles. Wish, hope, dream.
Sun Country does have at least one charger in US at Syracuse NY if I recall correctly.
--�
Sep 2, 2014
mknox That's an odd statement... I would say "lots". I've seen several Leafs at hotels I've been to. Case in point... I have an off-site overnight executive meeting in a couple of weeks at a hotel about 40 miles from where I work and about 75 miles from my home. They do happen to have J1772 charging. I can do that in my Tesla without actually needing the charger at the hotel, but if I drove a Leaf, it would be absolutely necessary. I know several Leaf owners who travel to meetings, conferences etc. at hotels, and even for a day, they need charging to get home.
- - - Updated - - -
In Canada, Sun Country Highway donated a ton of high power chargers for free to businesses who would agree to install them and provide charging for free. That program is now over, but yes, others are doing this. Sun Country now has a program to allow an individual or group of individuals sponsor a charger for public placement as well.�
Sep 2, 2014
RDoc Something I found a bit ominous in that article was the assertion that Tesla plans to have just enough superchargers and not one more.�
Sep 2, 2014
LonghornDub Instead of dual chargers, I may buy the CHAdeMO adapter once it comes out, but I can see the advantages of either approach.�
Sep 2, 2014
qwk The number one reason is by supporting J1772, one also supports the abortion known as Frankenplug. Tesla clearly has a much better connector(by light years), which supports level 1/2/3 in one swoop. I for one, don't want to see any more crippled J1772 stations, which don't do EV adoption any good.
- - - Updated - - -
This is not about being elite, it's about having a competent standard. Slow charging isn't going to further EV's. Most people(including myself), won't bother to settle for mediocre cars/charging stations.�
Sep 2, 2014
Perfect_Flaw Just wondering what happens when Tesla is cranking out 100K Model S and Model X's a year and those supercharger slots are filled everywhere you go? Thats going to suck. They better put superchargers everywhere or double the spaces in high volume areas. In the San Juan Capistrano location it is almost always full and some people have waited for 1-2 hours just to get a charge! Ridiculous�
Sep 2, 2014
mknox Not arguing that the Tesla connector isn't good... I'm just saying that Tesla HPWCs only work with some Teslas (i.e. not Roadsters) and the J1772 type work with all. Why is a 100 amp J1772 "crippled" compared to a 100 amp HPWC???�
Sep 2, 2014
TexasEV A 4th reason is marketing-- the destination gets the HPWC if it's installed in a prominent place. The point is for guests to see Teslas on display charging.�
Sep 2, 2014
qwk FYI, the Roadster doesn't work with a J1772 either. One needs an adapter. A 100A J1772 station isn't crippled, but the Frankenplug is. Unless you want two charging ports(one Tesla, one J1772), you can't ever have supercharging speed L3, because that standard doesn't support it. That is the entire reason Tesla went with their own connector, because the others suck so bad.�
Sep 2, 2014
mknox Agree with all of this. But the fact is that Roadster and Model S do have J1772 adapters whereas every other electric vehicle does not have a Tesla to J1772 adapter (that I know of).
And I'm just speaking to the concept of Level 2 destination charging, not DC Fast / Supercharging. Again, I agree that the Tesla plug is a lot more elegant than the CHAdeMO or so-called Frankenplug when you are looking for a combined connector. But there are going to be a lot of EVs out there that use J1772 (either directly or with an adapter) along with lots of Level 2 charging spots. What I am not that happy about is a Level 2 charger that only the Model S can use. Again, kudos to Tesla for getting their product out there and, heck, I drive a Model S so yay for me, but what about everyone else?
Perhaps I'm defending my own decision of recently installing 2 - 100 amp J1772 units in my company's parking lot. I wanted something that Tesla Model S owners could take full advantage of while at the same time allowing pretty much every other EV to utilize as well.�
Sep 2, 2014
Yorkshire_By_Eck well sorry to be a grumpy Yorkshire man, but I don't really get the 'benefit' !
Now I can only speak for myself when I say, I'm not really in the habit of using a hotel room for the odd 'hour or two' and normally when staying at a hotel - am there for at least 8-10 hours (assuming arriving by 9pm and not leaving before 7am.
I do appreciate that I am far from an expert (including on the hours an American MS owner uses a hotel room for) - but this would still allow to total recharge of an 85kw/h battery.
*Please bear in mind that if I end up being a male prostitute to enable the funding of a MS - I reserve the right to change my opinion�
Sep 2, 2014
ecarfan But not other EV manufacturers.�
Sep 2, 2014
gavine Maybe Tesla doesn't want Leafs to charge at their stores?�
Sep 2, 2014
William13 Please excuse my ignorance but is there currently any car other than a Tesla with dual chargers that can accept AC at 240volts and 80 amps?�
Sep 2, 2014
rolosrevenge Imagine driving 250 miles to get to the hotel. You plug in, then check in and move your stuff into the hotel room. You want to drive around the town for a bit. With the 20 kW chargers, you can get meaningful range in 1/2 an hour so you aren't waiting around at the hotel.�
Sep 2, 2014
TexasEV What about everyone else? There are two types of problems-- my problems and someone else's problems. This falls in the category of someone else's (not Tesla's) problem.
Nothing is stopping hotels from installing charging equipment for "everyone else" too. But I doubt the number of non-Tesla EVs traveling long distances to hotels is significant enough for them to be interested in doing it.�
Sep 2, 2014
dsm363 Where are Nissan and Ford in donating J1772 80A stations to hotels? Until they help out Tesla had no obligation to provide charging for PHEVs and other EVs.�
Sep 2, 2014
djp Tesla Roadster, which is shut out of Tesla's destination charging program. More importantly, all EVs (including Model S) can charge at high amp J1772 stations, but only Model S can charge at an HPWC. The open standard is a better choice for public destinations.
To quote Elon..
Building an extensive high amp L2 charging network using a proprietary connector instead of an industry standard doesn't help move the world towards this goal. The net result will be fragmented charge networks, confused consumers, and slower EV adoption until the standards wars shake out.�
Sep 2, 2014
mochouinard Helping EV is not having Leaf along a route monopolize all the Charger station charging at 3.3kW or 6.6kW! On a Tesla, when you need to charge, it REALLY because you need to charge ! You deserve the charge
I think it fine that Tesla offer the HWPC at this time. The big job is to bring the 100AMP 220volt in.. Replacing the charger with something else later won't be a problem. But in the mean time, it keep those charger spot clear from anyone who charge lower than 20kW ! Unless you start to see J1772 station that charge only at 100AMP, but I don't think that even possible !�
Sep 2, 2014
NigelM [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Oh my, what would Nora say? [/FONT]
�
Sep 2, 2014
mochouinard Another example is the Zero S motocycles. It can charge on a 50kW CHAdeMO charger 95% of a 8.5kWh battery in 60minute. I hope you see what wrong here ! It use 8kW of the 50kW. If it did charge at 25kW it might be acceptable... The same as having a Tesla with only a single charger yet using a 100AMP charger port !�
Sep 2, 2014
TexasEV I disagree. Remember the 50's line "What's good for General Motors is good for America"? Now it's "What's good for Tesla is good for EV adoption." Tesla is the only company making EVs that are practical for long distances. If Tesla doesn't succeed, there will be no EV adoption because there will be no compelling EVs to buy. Industry standards are irrelevant when the industry standard car can only go 80 miles on a good day. If donated HPWCs helps Tesla succeed, we should be all for it.�
Sep 2, 2014
qwk Not if it's inadequate . Using something inferior because it's a standard is incompetent. The standard was implemented by manufacturers who don't even build EV's . That is just stupid.
- - - Updated - - -
Other manufacturers incompetence isn't Tesla's or anyone else's problem. Nobody forced them to build mediocre EV's with a handicapped standard. This is what happens when you reward incompetence.
- - - Updated - - -
With Tesla's plug, EVERY level of charging is the same. That's the beauty of it. No need for different connectors.�
Sep 2, 2014
djp How is J1772 inadequate for 80A L2? It can charge all EVs at all rates, and match the speed of a HPWC. Agreed the standard is useless for L3, but for a L2 station it can do everything an HPWC can do, plus is open to everyone. If I was running a hotel I'd rather accommodate all EV guests rather than limit it to a few.�
Sep 2, 2014
TexasEV If other EVs could get to your hotel, that might make sense, but the overwhelming majority of hotel stays are by people who live >100 miles away, and no other company makes a car that can go 100 miles without using gasoline. Also, as has been pointed out several times in this thread, nothing would stop a hotel owner from installing one or more J1772 also if he thought it would help business. And no one is forcing the hotel to accept a HPWC. Both Tesla and the hotels must think it's a good business decision or they wouldn't be doing it.�
Sep 2, 2014
mknox It's not uncommon for hotels to have conference centers, and many business meetings are held in them for, say, half a day. I'm probably at one at least once a month for meetings like this.
- - - Updated - - -
A 100 Amp J1772 EVSE can deliver up to 80 amps continuous. A single charger Model S will only take half of that, and other EVs that use the J1772 plug will take whatever their onboard chargers can take.
- - - Updated - - -
Sure, but as I say above, there are a lot of reasons for being at a hotel other than road tripping. I see lots of Leafs, Volts, and other EVs at hotels all the time.�
Sep 3, 2014
scottf200 But if you were on a road trip and there was a Plug-in-Prius or Volt there you would not be happy (and you were queued behind a couple more of them).
- - - Updated - - -
Well it is not just about *1* Tesla owner charging over night for 8-10 hours. It could easily be about multiple. So some coordination around dinner, evening out, before departure in the a.m. A valet could move cars if necessary and would be tipped handsomely.�
Sep 3, 2014
mknox True, but what I've done in the past is call ahead and get them to put a cone or something in the spot. I figure if I have an actual reservation, that should take precedence over simple opportunity charging. I would be equally annoyed if another Tesla was plugged in to a HPWC when I arrived if I needed the charge too.�
Sep 3, 2014
wycolo Call it a hunch (I've been there twice) but I'm guessing SJC SC is the poster child for local LuLu usage. As in 'in lieu of home charging'. Lots of KWHs there (it comes up often in second place to Fremont). I'd sure like to see TM stats of vins using SJC.
--�
Sep 3, 2014
qwk I never said that J1772 is inadequate for 80A. What I said was that every other charging connector cannot match Tesla's 135kw of power, not even close. Do you want multiple huge connectors/ports on your vehicle? I sure dont. One sleek connector suits me just fine. By supporting any other standard other than their own, Tesla would be crapping on their own superior connector, not to mention making their cars wait behind hybrids who won't be stranded if they don't charge. This is just business 101.�
Sep 3, 2014
mknox But.. but.. but.. you've got that! You have the sleek all-in-one Tesla connector that works everywhere. You can use a Tesla UMC, a Tesla HPWC, a Tesla Supercharger and you can use J1772 stations with the supplied adapter and CHAdeMO with the optional adapter. I don't see what the problem is.
The issue is at the other end of the equation when a hotel installs an 80 amp HPWC that only the Model S can use instead of an 80 amp J1772 station that everyone, including Model S owners can use.
Again, for me with a Model S, fine. But just look at some of the comments on PlugShare from disgruntled non-Tesla EV owners when they find one of these and can't charge. I get that Tesla is providing them, and that's fine... they want to promote their own cars and standards, but it sure doesn't seem to support the idea of accelerating electric vehicle adoption "in general" and in some senses, could lead to resentment against the "perceived 1 per-centers" who can afford a Model S.�
Sep 3, 2014
GSP The hotels are not putting in Superchargers, they are putting in 80 Amp L2 EVSEs. J1772 is just as good as Tesla's proprietary connector for these stations.
What's the best plug to install on the car is another discussion, and not decided by the hotel management.
I would not stay at a hotel that offered charging only for the Model S. That is a reason for them to chose J1772 L2 stations. If Tesla offered HPWCs with a J1772 plug, they likely would get more Hotels and other businesses putting them in. That would be good for everyone.
GSP�
Sep 3, 2014
ToddRLockwood Hotels are not the only locations where these destination chargers are being located. Ski areas are a perfect application, especially if you're not spending the night. Also, it's good to keep in mind that Tesla may offer a larger battery in the not-too-distant future. A 500-mile battery�which Elon Musk believes will eventually be possible�could take as long as 9-hours to charge at present charging rates.�
Sep 3, 2014
qwk It's not Tesla's responsibility to install charging stations compatible with other manufacturers cars. The people who bought those cars can contact their manufacturer and complain.
BTW, a Model S is hardly a 1% car. That is just nonsense.�
Sep 3, 2014
TexasEV We're talking about two different things. If someone is going to a hotel for a conference, they're going there whether or not EV charging is available. Sure it would be nice for EV charging to be available, but you'll find a way to go there regardless. When a hotel installs EV charging it's probably to increase discretionary stays, when someone has a choice of where to stay. This is where HPWCs can increase business for the hotel and visibility for Tesla. Those stays are almost always involve a trip of at least 100 miles, and it's really unlikely a EV (and I'm not talking about Volt, I'm talking about EVs that need to charge)other than Model S and soon Model X will be looking for a hotel that far away.�
Sep 3, 2014
qwk Does anybody else besides me here not get that the J1772 standard is directly tied to the Frankenplug? Come on guys, this isn't that hard to figure out.�
Sep 3, 2014
ToddRLockwood This might be true were it not for the fact that Tesla is offering the HPWC's to hotels for free, and in some instances Tesla pays for the installation as well. The property owner only pays for the electricity. I don't know for certain, but I imagine that Tesla's offer is contingent upon the hotel not charging Tesla owners for the use of the HPWC, although they might be able to limit it to hotel guests.�
Sep 3, 2014
GSP They are more likely to complain to the business that installed the charging station they can not use. After all, the manufacturer of their car installed a standardized plug to enable them to use as many charging stations as possible.
What are businesses supposed to do? Install separate charging stations for Tesla S, Tesla Roadster, Chevrolets, Fords, Mercedes, Chryslers, Hyundais, BMW, VW, Volvo, Morgans, Hondas, Toyotas, Subarus, Mitsubishis, Bentleys, Rolls-Royces, Nissans, Lotus, etc? They would have a different plug for every parking space! Most of these companies make PEVs already or plan to introduce them soon.
GSP�
Sep 3, 2014
mknox I'm sensing that we actually agree on most of this. You are absolutely correct that it is not up to Tesla to install EVSE compatible with other people's cars. Tesla Roadster owners have called to complain. I'm also not suggesting that Tesla adopt anything other than their present connector. I'm speaking more to the destination operator who installs a Model S - only charging unit and am wondering if they're doing themselves any favors when comments on PlugShare like this show up:
I agree absolutely that Model S is not a "1%-er's" car, but popular opinion may not be on our side. There was a big editorial in Canada's national paper about how government EV incentives "for the rich" must end - - and they were even lumping Leaf and Volt owners into the "privileged few".�
Sep 3, 2014
djp Here is a perfect example from the first Tesla destination charger in Ontario at Muskoka Bay Club, which is already drawing the ire of other EV owners. The club is about 100 miles north of Toronto, so within range of other EVs.
This discussion isn't about the connector on the car, but the charging station. If I was in the hospitality business, I'd rather put in a station that attracts all EVs instead of just Teslas. I've heard of hotels turning down destination chargers because of this - Tesla could gain more traction and install more chargers if they offered an HPWC with J1772 connector, and avoid the "elitist" image at the same time.
(Note - cross posted with @mknox. Funny how we both thought of that same comment at the same time!)�
Sep 3, 2014
qwk Like I said before, the standard that was thought up by manufacturers who don't build EV's(except for CARB compliance reasons), SUCKS. What was Tesla supposed to do? Build cars that take so long to charge that not many people buy them? In business there is competition, and usually the best company(s) stay in business. This concept isn't followed in auto manufacturing, because the worst companies stay in business due to government intervention. Voting with your wallet in these cases seems to be the only recourse.
- - - Updated - - -
Can you point me to any other manufacturer besides Tesla that donates charging equipment? Those commenters bought obsolete cars that can't charge everywhere. That is their problem, not anybody elses.
- - - Updated - - -
This is like a generic MP3 buyer complaining that they cannot access iTunes. It's a silly argument. They knew the limitations of their vehicles when they bought them. They didn't support Tesla for various reasons, but now want Tesla to support their cars? Do you know how stupid this sounds?�
Sep 3, 2014
GSP Tesla absolutely did a great job designing the connector on their cars, and the rest of the car as well! By all means everyone should vote with their wallets for Tesla.
However, for the *L2 charging station side* (not the car side) a standard plug has many advantages. Tesla thought about this and the Model S accommodates standard charging stations very well with their slick little 80 Amp capable J1772 adapter that comes with the Model S.
GSP�
Sep 3, 2014
wycolo > drawing the ire of other EV owners. [djp]
Who likely will never even come close to planning an EV trip with a stay over at Samantha's Bed n Breakfast but just want to ventilate about their perceived disrespect. Their EV can't really go anywhere exciting and they resent that limitation. So kick sand on Tesla's parade.
Until someone else produces a long distance BEV this is simply a moot issue about cheap hardware that gets hung on a wall.
--�
Sep 3, 2014
qwk That's my point, the 80A J1772 has NO advantage. It cannot charge any faster than an HPWC, and the HUGE disadvantage is that it is tied to a L3 standard that is limited to about half of what Tesla offers.�
Sep 3, 2014
djp You're advocating a world without standards, where every EV manufacturer has their own proprietary connector. In that world, EV adoption would grind to a halt.
I agree the Tesla connector is a better design for the car, but unless all other manufacturers and standards committees adopt it (which isn't going to happen), J1772 is the better choice for an 80A L2 EVSE, and it is equivalent to an HPWC for Model S owners.�
Sep 3, 2014
qwk Yep, this is pretty much it. They didn't pay for the benefits, yet still want them. This is entitlement at its finest.
- - - Updated - - -
No, I'm advocating for a usable EV. I hate to rain on your parade, but EV adoption is pathetic right now. One of the reasons is the fact that not many people besides environmental die-hards have the ambition or time to live with the compromises. Tesla pretty much fixed that problem. Standards are fine, but not when they severely cripple a product.�
Sep 3, 2014
mknox One other thing I noticed is that this site was listed on the Tesla destinations page, but it is now gone. I am pretty sure the HPWCs are still there.
- - - Updated - - -
I feel like I'm starting to put too fine a point on this, but I don't think it's about what Tesla is doing. Rather, it's about the perception of an establishment only endorsing one model of car. Like it or not, J1772 and CHAdeMO are here, and the horrible "Frankenplug" is coming, and we're going to be in a multiple standards world for some time. Does it suck? Sure. Imagine if Chevrolets could only re-fuel at Chevrolet gas stations. Ridiculous, but that's where we are in the EV world right now. In a perfect world, all manufacturers will adopt the Model S connector and this discussion ends... but that is a ways off.
To say that someone purchased a car with known limitations and is looking for Tesla's support is not at all what we're talking about here.
- - - Updated - - -
Seriously? LOTs of non-Tesla EV owners take overnight trips in their cars, or day trips beyond their car's range and need to charge and get back. And they're not blaming Tesla for anything. They are wondering why the establishment they may want to visit only "endorses" one type of EV. No one is kicking sand on Tesla's parade. They probably don't even realize how/why the HPWCs were installed, and only wonder why a more universal charger wasn't.�
Sep 3, 2014
ecarfan I agree. No one is offering free J1772 chargers to destinations. Tesla has an existing product, the HPWC, and they are giving them away to destinations. No other EV manufacturer is doing anything like that. I don't want Tesla to expend resources to develop a J1772 charging station and give that away. If the other EV manufacturers really wanted to make their customers lives easier they would design a J1772 adaptor that works with a HPWC. But other EV manufacturers by and large just want to build compliance vehicles. So until they get serious, it's their problem to deal with.�
Sep 3, 2014
qwk I should clarify that I have absolutely no problem with people installing stations other than Tesla's. What I do have a problem with is people whining that Tesla isn't paying for J1772 stations being put in, but rather paying for their own standard.
If we aren't talking about people looking for Tesla's support, then why quote other brand EV owners whining about not being able to use Tesla stations? Makes little sense.
- - - Updated - - -
This has been covered many times in this thread. These businesses are installing Tesla stations, because they are FREE, vs. $2k+ for a comparable J1772 station.�
Sep 3, 2014
mknox First of all, Sun Country Highway donated a ton of J1772 chargers here in Canada.
But that aside, I don't think anyone is asking Tesla to give away J1772 stations. That would be nuts. Sell a J1772 station -- okay maybe. Personally, I'd be thrilled to come across an HPWC at some destination I'm headed to. It's about the perception of a hotel, ski resort, restaurant or whatever only providing that very specialized connector. For Tesla owners like us to say "too bad, so sad" only exacerbates the growing sentiment that we're all a bunch of entitled elitists. I'M NOT SAYING THAT'S TRUE, but I am definitely feeling it from time to time.�
Sep 3, 2014
qwk I don't know where you get the "elitist" scenario from. This is simply a case of getting what you pay for, or don't pay for. The choice in EV's right now is either a city car, or Tesla. It's as simple as that.�
Sep 3, 2014
mknox I think it's because they are on the property of some hotel, ski resort or whatever and these folks aren't making the connection to Tesla themselves. They are wondering why the property owner chose to do this.�
Sep 3, 2014
qwk You are comparing Apples with Cabbage. Sun Country doesn't manufacture vehicles.
- - - Updated - - -
In that case, jumping to conclusions is their problem.�
Sep 3, 2014
JohnQ Customers have choices. In many cases (though certainly not all), there are J1772 chargers within a mile of the HPWC. Sometimes in a competing hotel parking lot, sometimes not. So if I'm going to Ocean City, Md or Binghamton, NY or Bedford, NH I can elect to stay at a hotel that is close to a charger that has compatibility.
I truly believe this is much ado about nothing. Tesla has decided to compete with an existing standard and provided its customers with an adapter to access the network that uses that standard. Today there are thousands of J1772 chargers for every public HPWC making it a relatively minor issue. And if it becomes a large issue, someone will build and sell a reverse adapter to access the Tesla standard.�
Sep 3, 2014
mknox Not sure why that matters. The point is that a ton of J1772 stations were donated to sites for destination and travel charging.
But it is a reasonable conclusion. If Hotel A has an HPWC (or a J1772 or a CHAdeMO) on their property for their patrons, they must have had some say in it.�
Sep 3, 2014
wycolo > LOTs of non-Tesla EV owners take overnight trips in their cars, or day trips beyond their car's range and need to charge and get back. [mknox]
But these destinations are so close to the city that Tesla would not be making the effort to install HPWCs there anyway. TM's interest would begin around the 150 mile radius which other EVs can't reach directly. Ski/camping areas and major Parks. Nissan could hang an Aeroviron charger on the same wall if they want to, right next to the HPWC.
The decent thing for Nissan to do would be to start a 'me too' campaign that installs a 6kw Aero Charger next to every HPWC that Tesla does. They could do this out of pocket change. None of that huge outlay with subsidies that the US Chademo roll out required.
--�
Sep 3, 2014
mknox If someone DID make an HPWC to J1772 adapter, and one of us showed up at a hotel and found a Leaf (or, God forbid a Volt) plugged in to it, how would we feel about that?
- - - Updated - - -
Good idea, except that in a lot of cases, there isn't electrical capacity in the building to do this. In fact I even know of one public Tesla HPWC site where they've had to dial the amps down because of building wiring issues.�
Sep 3, 2014
ToddRLockwood If Tesla's Destination Charging network becomes robust enough, it might give other car manufacturers a reason to adopt Tesla's charging standards. I believe we will see this begin to happen when other car companies introduce 200+mile PEVs like the Model III. The level 2 standard makes sense for the limited range EV's now using them, but down the road those chargers will be wholly inadequate.�
Sep 3, 2014
JohnQ It's a private charging station owned by the hotel/restaurant. They can choose to allow anyone to charge under the terms of Tesla's agreement in providing the equipment. It's no different than if I find a Leaf charging at any other station.
John�
Sep 3, 2014
Jaff +1...I take my Roadster on many overnight trips...
�
Sep 3, 2014
Jaff With all due respect, your statement does not incorporate any planning for the future...are we really to assume that other EV manufactures will never have an offering with a bigger battery?...I wouldn't want to take that bet...if I owned a Hotel, the only way I would put in an HWPC would be if I was also putting in a high amp Level II charge station that would accommodate all EV's....why should I limit my sales to accommodating only "some" EVers?...that is not good business...
�
Sep 3, 2014
ecarfan Of course they will...eventually. But it appears they are at least a year away if not two or three years from offering a 200+ mile range EV. So for now an HPWC is a good way to attract Tesla owners to remote destinations.�
Sep 3, 2014
qwk I used to think this way too, UNTIL I used the supercharger network for a 3k mile trip. After that eye opener, there is no way that ANY manufacturer will be able to sell many EV's without access to the superchargers. There is that much difference.
When, not if, Tesla's plug becomes the standard, everything else is going to need adapters. It's better just to skip this step.�
Sep 3, 2014
Six After my recent 5500 mile road trip, I agree with this idea. Tesla opened up its patents, their chargers, network, plug and standard are considerably better then the competition. If other car companies really cared they could use the better standard, they don't and they won't. IMHO that is not my problem or Tesla's problem. Tesla already offered the solution by opening up their patents.�
Sep 3, 2014
tezco Since I probably paid $10,000 as part of my Tesla's purchase price towards the Tesla charging system, I'd feel angry. Tesla may have opened up their patents, but they haven't said we're giving away electricity to all comers. You've got to set your boundaries -- Tesla still needs to make a profit to stay in the game.�
Sep 3, 2014
TexasEV I think all the arguments pro and con regarding hotels partnering with Tesla to install HPWC have already been made, several times over, so no point repeating ourselves.
It's interesting that much of the opposition seems to be from Canadians, certainly out of proportion to their relative numbers as Tesla owners or forum participants. I wonder if this is a cultural difference, or is it somehow related to the fact that most of the Sun Country high amp level 2's at hotels are in Canada?�
Sep 3, 2014
SFOTurtle And it would be well within your rights (I assume even in Canada) to put in whatever charging stations you want on your hotel property, so great if you want to put in both. But right now, I'm guessing that most hotels might only want or need to put in one station, and if I were the hotel owner, and Tesla was willing to give me a deal on a HPWC, that's the one I would choose. Personally, if I have a choice all things being equal, between a hotel that has a HPWC and one with a Level II charger, I would opt for the hotel with the HPWC. And I assume that most Tesla owners would do the same, and hotel owners who are in areas where road tripping is feasible for Teslas but not for Leafs would want to extend this benefit to attract more Tesla owners. If the market later shifts to some other cars with another plug, or another hotel owner adopts for Level II and miraculously starts winning more customers, than hotel owners can always add another station with the plug of choice. That ain't where we are now or anytime in the foreseeable future. And with all due respect to those relatively small number of Roadster owners who actually do road trip, I would not be pleased with Tesla taking its valuable resources and subsidizing Level II chargers for other cars to use instead of rolling out more HPWCs.
Reading this thread and all of the knocks on Tesla and hotels for adding more HPWCs and not adding Level II chargers reminds me of the saying, "no good deed goes unpunished."�
Sep 3, 2014
GSP Well, back to the topic: As more 80 Amp EVSEs get installed, the dual charger option keeps getting more attractive. And, it does not matter to Model S owners if the destination installs an HPWC or a J1772 style EVSE, the Model S with dual chargers can use either.
Priced at $1500 when you you order your car, dual chargers are much more expensive to retrofit later ($3600). Even if you only need them once in a blue moon, you will be *really glad* you have dual chargers on those occasions.
Just look at Islandbayy, who bought a 60 kWh since expenses were tight, but ended up having dual chargers retrofitted to his car. If you might end up in his shoes (not everyone will), you can benefit from his experience and specify dual chargers when you order.
GSP
PS. Thanks Islandbayy for sharing all your Model S experiences with us.�
Sep 3, 2014
TexasEV I wonder why retrofitting the Model S with dual chargers costs as much as it does. At $3600, that's $2100 more than the factory installed price of $1500. Even if all $1500 was for the part and not factory labor, an extra $2100 later for labor at the service center at $175/hr the service center charges for Model S comes out to 12 hours labor. Is that really what it takes?
For a time Tesla actually discouraged ordering with dual chargers when not ordered with HPWC and bundled them together for a while to emphasize dual chargers were intended for people who install HPWC at home. As it turns out dual chargers are becoming useful for many of us who have no need for HPWC at home, 40A charging with NEMA 14-50 is fine for overnight charging at home, but we would use them at destinations.
It would be nice if Tesla dropped the price of upgrading existing cars to dual chargers to what it actually costs, even using a labor rate of $175/hr, or perhaps give an even better deal to those of us who didn't order Model S with dual chargers last year because we had no need for 100A HPWC at home.�
Sep 3, 2014
jerry33 They would rather you purchase it with the car and price the upgrade accordingly. There is also shipping and paperwork cost involved (okay, they're small comparatively, but not zero). It takes about two hours to replace a failed charger. I don't know how much other stuff they have to do for a new install rather than a replacement.�
Sep 3, 2014
TexasEV That's true for other upgrades, but for a long time Tesla did not rather we purchase dual chargers with the car. As I posted above last year Tesla discouraged purchasing dual chargers with the car if you didn't also buy a HPWC, and for a while actually didn't even offer it except as a package with a HPWC. Now that Tesla realizes there is another reason to have dual chargers besides using it with a HPWC installed at home, I think there should be some accommodation for those who early buyers who followed Tesla's advice, and provide it for the actual hourly labor rate if not some discount from that, rather than charging 12 hours of labor. And I would gladly pay the shipping.�
Sep 3, 2014
Jaff Here though is where you need to think beyond the borders of the U. S.
Canada is larger in area than the U. S. , but we have 1/10th the population, hence we are a small market for Tesla...it will be a long, long time before Superchargers connect all of Canada coast to coast, and a long long time before the Super harder network is properly "filled in" adequately...you folks in the U.S. already enjoy a Supercharging network that is years away for us...this is why the dual chargers are so important to us, and, why a robust Level II charging network usable by all EV's is as well.
I did a 3,500 km trip last fall using high amp Level II charging (in my Roadster)...it was completely "doable" with Sun Country's charge network (and a little patience).
I think it is important to note, as other Canadian Tesla owners have already pointed out that we all wish that all EV manufacturers out there were using Tesla's Model S charging protocols, but the reality is that too may be years away (if ever)...without other EV manufacturers coming online with Tesla's charging protocols, there is simply no way this step can be skipped in Canada imo.
- - - Updated - - -
It is the latter Texas...Sun Country is rolling out their charge stations at Best Western Hotels in the U. S. as well...
- - - Updated - - -
No one is knocking Tesla for their good deeds here SFO...it is just that putting in an EV charging station that all EV's can use makes more sense from the hotel owner's business perspective.
�
Sep 3, 2014
mknox Conversely then, should Model S owners abandon their J1772 adapters and leave those stations for the Leaf and Volt crowd? Why would publicly accessible HPWCs be only for us while J1772 stations are available for all?�
Sep 3, 2014
SFOTurtle I disagree with your last assertion. It may be the case for some hotels, but clearly not all. And any hotel owner who thinks that putting in a Level II makes more sense than an HPWC is free (I assume even in Canada) to do so. It's no secret that the HPWC is only for Tesla's Model S, but I have seen plenty of hotels and at least a couple of wineries in CA that installed HPWCs and only HPWCs. But for those hotel owners who choose to install a Level II, I don't see why Tesla should subsidize that effort.�
Sep 4, 2014
Larry Chanin Hi Todd,
I think it is your point that many here are missing.
If Tesla is successful in building the Gigafactory and producing hundreds of thousands of Model IIIs a year, year after year, the Tesla charging connector will become the defacto standard. Its no secret that Tesla relaxed its patents enforcement to facilitate this eventual industry switch.
As was pointed out it is not Elon's strategy to adopt other car manufacturers' inferior charging standard, but rather to induce them to switch to Tesla's.
With this longer range strategy as background, it is logical that the Tesla Destination Charging Program starts with providing donated or discounted Tesla High Power Wall Connectors. It supports the goal of promoting the Tesla standard and it is half the cost of a comparable 80 amp J1772 charging station. However, Tesla project management recognizes that there are other EVs on the roads and it is their practice to recommend to host locations to install "universal" charging stations along with the Tesla HPWCs. It is really the host location's call and Tesla should not be criticized if the location elects to only install HPWCs.
As I see Elon's overarching strategy is to push a reluctant automotive industry to produce practical EVs by continuing to build compelling Teslas that take marketshare from conventional gasoline vehicles. Its a "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em" approach. Elon's strategy is NOT to subsidize other inferior designs, whether it be cars or charging infracture. As you suggest, Elon's objective will be achieved when others start producing legitimate long range EVs. When that happens those manufacturers would be very unwise not to switch to Tesla's charging standard, which incorporates a high performance port capable of both Level 2 and Level 3 charging.
In the meantime it would be counter to Tesla's long range strategy and well being to promote other standards over its own.
Larry�
Sep 4, 2014
andrewket Tesla wasn't discouraging people from buying dual chargers. They were trying to minimize the confusion between supercharging and high-powered charging. Lots of people ordered dual chargers thinking they were getting supercharging.�
Sep 4, 2014
Larry Chanin Agreed. I think Tesla's long term charging strategy was undefined when they bundled the dual on-board chargers with an HPWC. Likewise the cost of retrofitting a second on-board charger is somewhat at odds with promoting an HPWC network at key destinations. It wouldn't surprise me to see a downward adjustment in the pricing.
Larry�
Sep 4, 2014
scaesare I agree with the posts supporting the general idea that Tesla is pushing the status quo on several fronts when it comes to charging:
-Car range/pack size (85kWh)
-Car charger capability (20kW)
-L2 charger parterership (free/discounted/aggressive)
-DC fast charging (135kW, aggressive rollout, free for life, solar backed, parternering with business locations)
-Connector/port design (combined L2/L3, sleek, intelligent)
Thus far, Tesla has adopted standards where it makes sense, discounted them when it doesn't (often with an amusing snide remark), moved forward with their own designs when necessary, and generally pushed faster and harder than everybody else. Along the way they've done things like offer to work freely with patent designs, etc...
So while Tesla is getting stuff done, other companies tend to look like thy are standing around.
Is one of Tesla's goals to advance the adoption of EV's in general? Yes.
But if they believe they can better serve that interest by pushing forward and at the same time advance their own interests to ensure their future viability (i.e. eliminate silly two-connector/unwieldy) car desgins... then more power to them (pun intended).
To me, arguing that Tesla shouldn't be offering their top-pf the line L2 charging station to hotels, but instead go to the effort and expense of building/licensing/providing a different product to fill the voids other companies have left is a nice uptoian dream, but not terribly rooted in the real world of driving a successful business.
Nothing's prevented Nissan, Toyota, Chevy, etc... from doing any of this... but they didn't.�
Sep 4, 2014
SFOTurtle [Edit: Apologies for the duplicate post. I re-posted because it appeared my post from last night didn't have the context from the quote to which I was responding, but now it seems to have it fine.] I disagree with your last assertion. It may be the case for some hotels, but clearly not all. And any hotel owner who thinks that putting in a Level II makes more sense than an HPWC is free (I assume even in Canada) to do so. It's no secret that the HPWC is only for Tesla's Model S, but I have seen plenty of hotels and at least a couple of wineries in CA that installed HPWCs and only HPWCs. But for those hotel owners who choose to install a Level II, I don't see why Tesla should subsidize that effort.�
Sep 4, 2014
mknox Of course not, and I don't think anyone is suggesting that.�
Sep 4, 2014
TexasEV The first part of your statement is just not true. I understand there was confusion and Tesla thought pairing HPWC with dual chargers would eliminate that confusion, but the fact remains that Tesla emphasized the dual chargers were to charge with HPWC at home. Even before the short-lived bundling of HPWC and dual chargers, people who didn't need 80A charging at home were told there is no reason to order the car with dual chargers if you're not getting HPWC. I'm one of them.
I'm not blaming anyone, this was before Tesla thought of a destination charging program, and when in most of the U.S. the J1772s were all 30A. It's just that dual chargers have turned out to be more useful than they were thought to be when they were intended to be paired with a HPWC installed at home. Given these facts, and the upgrade price calculates to 12 hours of service center labor above the price of the factory installed option, I think it would be reasonable for Tesla to provide a more reasonable upgrade price if the installation doesn't actually take 12 hours of work.�
Sep 4, 2014
Larry Chanin Perhaps you didn't mean to imply it, but your initial response could easily be interpreted that you were suggesting that Tesla promote other chargers rather than their own.
Larry�
Sep 4, 2014
jerry33 Agreed, if that's what they did--I had thought it was just a few store employees who discouraged it, not Tesla as a company. I know they sold it as a package for awhile, but that didn't last very long. I never heard what their thinking was.
I purchased the twin chargers because of all the original Leaf owners who didn't get the fast charge port because there weren't any in the area when they purchased. Every one of them now regrets it and a few have traded in their car to get one with both ports.�
Sep 4, 2014
bollar It seems that dual chargers still aren't pushed at stores I visit. I'm almost always greeted with a "really? wow! why?" from the rep when I say I have them.�
Sep 4, 2014
Canuck I was strongly encouraged by Tesla to buy dual chargers when I got my car (and this was before I bought a HPWC) but that's probably because around here we have a lot of Sun Country 70 amp EVSE's.�
Sep 4, 2014
russman I was told to pass on HPWC but to get the dual chargers.�
Sep 4, 2014
dsm363 You have to balance that with owners of a $80,000+ car being happy with their purchase. If they are they are more likely to drive it around and show other people how amazing the car is and his easy it is to travel with. Hotels are perfectly able to buy J1772 stations themselves and Nissan and Ford can donate them too. Having one 80A J1772 station Ickes by a Pip of Volt all night does a traveling EV little good.�
Sep 5, 2014
franknesss My daily commute is about 85miles. I was told that due to my driving habits and accessibility to Level 2 chargers in my apartment complex, there was no need for the dual chargers. However, since we were already considering installing a 30A unit at our home (second location) I thought it would be nice to add the HPWC to the house as well. So I got lucky with adding on the dual chargers.
Long story short, I was told I didn't need the dual chargers by the sales reps, but I think they did not foresee the possibility of Tesla utilising their HPWC unit as a formal way to extend the Tesla charging network. What I mean by "formal" is having the location on the Teslamotors.com page. I would assume most people would rather not have their private residences listed.�
Sep 5, 2014
JohnQ I find this community to be far more knowledgeable than your average Tesla rep in a store. When choosing charger configuration I educated myself on high-speed L2 availability in the areas where I was most likely to drive and landed on the single charger option. I would have listened to, and taken into account, the opinion of the Telsa rep but it's ultimately my decision. If I traveled to Canada often then I would have added the second charger in a heartbeat. I have encountered one instance where a dual charger would be helpful: when all the superchargers in Bethesda were taken and I plugged into a 14-50 rather than doubling up the rate from the HPWC right next to it. I'll have another when I travel through SW Ontario in a few weeks. I'll be irritated by not having dual chargers but not $1,500 worth of irritation.
Destination chargers don't change my opinion of this. I can get a full charge from an HPWC in less than 8 hours or so; in very rare cases my overnight stay at the hotel might be less than that. Others will have different opinions, needs and patience.�
Sep 5, 2014
Larry Chanin HPWCs are particularly useful at luxury hotels and resorts when they are managed as part of the valet parking operations. Then having faster AC charging is very helpful in permitting the topping off of multiple Model Ss. The valets can swap Model Ss in and out as needed. The faster charging is sort of like mechanical advantage whereby you can charge more cars than there are charging terminals.
Larry�
Sep 5, 2014
GSP I would sum up the dual charger decision as:
Reasons NOT to get dual chargers:
1) SuperCharging (on board charger is not used)
2) DC Fast Charging with the "coming soon" $1000 CHAdeMO adaptor (on board charger is not used). The likely expansion of both SuperChargers and CHAdeMO DC charging stations will result in less need for dual on-board chargers.
3) Overnight charging (30 mph from single 40A charger is plenty fast enough)
4) The second charger will lighten your wallet by $1500
Reasons TO get dual chargers:
1) Day trip destinations with 80 Amp charging stations
2) Quick top off of your battery at home, from a routine charge level of 60-90% to 100% or whatever is needed for an unplanned longer trip.
3) TOU rate plans with super off peak window of less than 4-5 hours. If you drive over 100 miles per day, you may need dual chargers to finish charging in the lowest cost time period.
4) Makes charging stops on routes without Superchargers, but with 80 Amp stations, feasible. Stops are only 2-4 hours instead of 4-8 hours!
5) Keep in mind likely expansion of 80 Amp charging availability in your area, not just what is available now. Also consider the possibility of future travel to areas without Superchargers, but with 80 Amp charging.
6) Save $2100 compared to retrofitting a second charger.
GSP
PS. I should add that Europeans have so many 22 kW 3-phase Type-2 EVSE outlets that buying dual chargers is an absolute no-brainer for them, unless they don't drive all that much.�
Sep 5, 2014
Larry Chanin Nice summary.
Larry�
Sep 5, 2014
breser This was ultimately the reason I ordered the dual chargers. I plan to keep the car for more than a couple years (kept my previous car for 15 years). I'd like to get 10 years out of this car (that may be pushing it with new technology but we'll see). It seems inevitable that 80 Amp charging will become more common.�
Sep 5, 2014
iffatall When I spoke with the Tesla Sales Rep last October, to discuss options that I should add to my car, I had very little knowledge of the charging systems, and options. I told the rep I was not sure if I should get the dual chargers, because I wasn't sure if I would use it. She asked me a few questions about my daily commute length and schedule, and came to the conclusion that I do not really needed it. In very clear terms, she explained to me that the use of having dual chargers was to do quick charging at home. If not for that, the second charger will remain unused. That made my decision very easy - no dual chargers necessary.
Had I had then, the same knowledge about charging that I have today, I would have added the dual charger option without any hesitation. And this is not even considering hotels installing "Tesla Connectors".�
Sep 5, 2014
andrewket I would add under pro:
TOU rate plans with super off peak window of less than 4-5 hours. This was one of my reasons.�
Sep 5, 2014
GSP Good point. I added it to my original post, just to make the summary more complete.
GSP�
Sep 5, 2014
mknox No, I meant the hotel / ski resort / restaurant should consider a more open 100 amp J1772 over a 100 amp HPWC, not that Tesla should provide it.�
Sep 5, 2014
karmamule When I described my driving patterns to my owner advisor he agreed dual chargers didn't sound necessary. Superchargers have my regular longer drives covered, and on the rare cases when I may have to rely on destination charging it'll be just that, charging at my *destination*. Almost all the time my destination is where I'll be spending the night, or I'll perhaps want to walk somewhere nearby, but in either case I won't care that my charging is taking 6 or 8 hours instead of a couple.
Spending 1500 to cover those couple of times I might be inconvenienced by not having it just does not seem worth the price. And, with the supercharger network continuing to fill in the likelihood I'll regret this grows less and less. I can understand that people who frequently make long trips, and/or don't have good SC coverage where they drive would get their money's worth, but it didn't seem worth it for the vast majority of my driving needs.�
Sep 5, 2014
TexasEV It sounds like you made an informed decision after knowing that dual chargers can be used when traveling. Now the web page on public charging addresses this:
"If you plan to take road trips, we recommend outfitting your Model S with Dual Chargers."
That wasn't the case a year ago, as others have confirmed after reading my post, when dual chargers were described as being for use with HPWC at home.
As I said before, I'm not blaming anyone, circumstances change and everyone was learning as they went along. I just think those of us who didn't get dual chargers because we weren't getting HPWC 80A charging at home should be able to have the dual chargers installed for a surcharge that is something less than the 12 hours of service center labor ($2100 over factory installed price) Tesla is charging.�
Sep 5, 2014
breser I'm honestly having a hard time believing that Tesla is charging a premium for this upgrade if there wasn't a reason for it. It's in their interest to offer this sort of upgrade for as low as they can, given that charging times are one of the significant down sides of EVs.
The comparison in this thread to replacing a charger (2 hours) to adding a 2nd charger may not be accurate. I'd imagine they may need to add wiring for the 2nd charger if it isn't installed in the factory. Swapping out a charger is just a matter of removing one and plugging in a new one so it's likely to be easier. If they have to do significant tear downs to get the wiring in place the 12 hours might not be that ridiculous.
So I'd be curious for someone who has actually done the upgrade to describe how long Tesla had their car. If it took more than one day I'd bet on it being much more difficult than the charger swap and thus the added cost is not unusual.�
Sep 5, 2014
Canuck Have you thought about writing a letter to one of the higher ups at Tesla with details of your story and what you were originally told etc. to see if you can get a discount? You might be pleasantly surprised but if not there's not much to lose except the time it took write it.�
Sep 6, 2014
iffatall Agree with what you said, but just thinking out loud:
Demand for the cars is so high the factory is having a hard time to keep supply up. Elon mentioned service centers do not make profit (although, I am not sure if this is really true). Service Centers are swamped and backlogged.
Given the above three, Tesla has no reason to encourage this retrofit.�
Sep 6, 2014
JohnQ I'd just qualify this with some service centers are swamped. I've got three within 30 miles of me and they seem to be looking for things to do.�
Sep 6, 2014
seanahan The main reason I decided on dual chargers when I ordered three months ago was "future proofing" the car. It is very unclear what the charging infrastructure will be like in this country in the next 3-5 years, and even more unclear looking at 10 yeras. What if my commuting habits change? What if my power plan changes? What if I want to sell to by a newer model in 3 years? There are so many unanswered questions in my mind that I decided to get the dual chargers now, rather than may extra later.�
Sep 6, 2014
karmamule seanahan, the reasons those factors didn't influence me: One thing that IS clear about the future of the charging infrastructure is that the supercharger network is going to expand, not contract. Two new superchargers opening close to me in the next few months. I'm not worried about the possibilities of very long commutes because, forget about my car, *I* wouldn't tolerate it! And, as far as resale value in 3 years, I decided to go with financing with Tesla so I'd have a set buy-out price if I want to "trade up" in 3 years. Right now I'm anticipating I'll love my S85, but I know myself and as they add new features like ACC, maybe LTE, maybe some other autonomous driving features, better battery performance etc., I highly suspect I'll want to get the latest and greatest.
But, if those factors are worrying you it definitely sounds like you made the best decision for you. We all know ourselves best, and if not having something is going to nag at you then why cheap out over a couple thousand on such a huge purchase? It would be a shame to go through all this and then still have that little voice saying "Damn I shoulda got that ...........". In my case I dithered over air suspension and that line of thinking broke the tie, so to speak, and made me modify my purchase to get it.�
Sep 6, 2014
ahimberg One thing I would add under Not is if you believe that chademo or sae j1772 combo/dc charging will become prevalent and supported by Tesla and that becomes the answer for day charging. I'm still hoping for the combo adapter, which should be a lot less expensive than the chademo, and within a couple years take over chademo.�
Sep 6, 2014
seanahan I guess three months ago that wasn't as clear to me as it is right now. I agree, I think it will continue to expand. However, what's not clear to me is whether they will extend superchargers into cities throughout the country, or continue to maintain them along major highways. For example, in Texas, I can easily get from Dallas to Austin with one supercharger stop. But the roundtrip from the supercharger to Austin and then back again on the way home would be a little tight, especially if I drove a lot around Austin. So, if I'm in Austin for a few days, (or Houston or San Antonio), I would likely need to find intermediate charging to get me back to the supercharger on the way back. Or even if I can "make" it, I'd prefer to not have to do a full charge at the supercharger. If there is available charging in the cities (definitely true in Austin), then I would rather dual charge than single. Tesla advertising their HPWC network and putting them in hotels and public places makes all of this even easier.
Another thought was that if other companies start putting in their own adapters in various places, Tesla may avoid putting in a supercharger, since that area already has electric charging that Tesla's can use.
Add that to resale value, piece of mind, and high cost of retrofit, and it seemed like an easy decision for me. However, I agree with the assessment that most people don't really need dual charges. I'm a worrier, so it was easier for me to get that option now rather than worry about it for years.�
Không có nhận xét nào:
Đăng nhận xét