Jul 19, 2015
Footbag I had a very interesting and exciting exchange with a Tesla employee today. While waiting at a Supercharger, a Tesla pulls in with MFG plates. The individual who got out nodded to a group of us owners chatting, so I went over and said hello and asked if they works for Tesla per the MFG plates. Yes. I then asked if this car was being used to test anything (didn't see extra cameras or anything obvious). To my surprise, the answer was yes, testing Autopilot. A near 30 minute conversation followed, as the individual was much more open than I would have expected. I am being a bit vague in elements, in an attempt to protect this individual. Feel free to believe or not believe the following, I obviously have no proof (my wife would vouch for it, as she heard most of the exchange, for what that is worth lol).
- This person stated they were quite high level within Tesla (my impression, based on the title they gave)
- Autopilot is very close to ready - i did not press for more specifics. They were unaware of Elons comments about the 405 or whatever highway with faded white lines and light concrete.
- To that end, there is consideration that the system may talk to the mothership to know areas where autopilot can't be relied upon, so the car will give the driver notice in advance - "you are approaching an area where autopilot cannot function reliably, prepare to take control" (my words based on this persons comments)
- Having seen a situation where a 110km speed sign was read as 10k by the car, I mentioned this to this person. They were quite shocked this happened. They did confirm the intention is that the system will automatically adjust the speed of the car (as seen in the initial demonstration, and as an improvement to the current "set cruise to speed" function we have now).
- I suggested/asked if the system had a threshold - don't adjust speed if delta is greater than x. That is not part of the system, but they were intrigued by the idea.
- I asked if the car 'tells' tesla when a speed sign is 'ignored' by the driver, ie that the car detected it wrong. No such communication happens.
- In stop and go traffic, the system is reliable enough that the driver could be distracted while driving and still be safe (not saying this is a good thing or the intention!). This individual gave examples of doing tasks very not related to driving, and having nothing untoward result.
- There appears to be a bit of 'debate' within Tesla over how much the car should pester the driver to stay focused on driving. A 'new' feature just put into the software recently goes quite far towards pestering. This individual really disliked it, and was trying to get it reverted. It has to do with, and is in stark contrast to some statements Elon made a while back. I joked "the lawyers must be getting involved" and the response I got was a slight chuckle. We all will hope this individual gets this change reverted (but I am not so sure Tesla as a company will revert it)
- I brought up Elon mentioning sensor suite 2. This person confirmed that more sensors are needed for autonomous driving. No surprise. Did not ask about the Model S seen with additional cameras.
- Some discussion was had about laws - Tesla is keenly aware that autonomous features in cars are a grey area, that laws are typically not in place about them, and Tesla wants to implement it to be safe enough that laws don't need to get written, with the fear being that when government writes such laws, they will be too overboard on safety and will prevent features.
- I mentioned having owned an Infiniti Q50 for a short time - "oh, the car that ping pongs between the lanes"... this person knew about the car. It was mentioned the team has a Merc S Class, and that is the benchmark they are trying to beat. There was confidence implied that they had beat the S Class in lane keeping.
- No discussion about self parking - I mean, this person got out of the car and it parked itself next to the Supercharger, but I wasn't about to point out that we all saw that (just kidding)
- This person mentioned it was much more relaxing driving in autopilot mode. Something said to the effect of 'if you are tired, you still are able to monitor the car just fine (autopilot on), whereas you might not be as able to drive the car safely (autopilot off)'. Again, I don't think this individual nor tesla (nor I) advocate driving a car with autopilot when you shouldn't be/when you wouldn't be able to safely drive a car without autopilot.
- I asked if I could see v7 which was running in the car, after a quick 'thought' ('yes' was not immediate), I was let in the drivers seat - it was made VERY clear not to try to take any pictures. I was very surprised to be allowed to sit down.
- The person did almost all of the interaction, except when I asked to press CONTROLS once (this was out of respect, but it seemed like this person would have been ok with me pressing buttons at will)
- I didn't think to press the T to see version number
- As talked about on here (TMC), it is the dark/flat look that was in the demo cars at the D launch.
- I was a bit overwhelmed, and didn't take too many mental notes about the specific looks. Icons were less cartooney.
- There is less contrast between the background and the text/icons - sun was shining brightly on the screen, and even the individual had trouble making out the bottom row of buttons (settings, temp, etc).
- The layout exactly mimics what we have - everything is in same place on the 17" screen
- There is a new icon indicating charge port is open
- On a very quick pass through, the CONTROLS screen seemed to be the same. The individual jumped through some pages, I didn't notice anything, but certainly may have missed items.
- It was implied that there were not any BIG new features - I did not see an APPS icon for instance - and it is still the same 2 open windows layout. This relates to my perception the person would have let me press buttons at will - in that there wasn't anything present they thought needed to be hidden.
- The top icons (nav, music, etc) did not seem to be 'in a tray' as they are now (or so my memory recalls - again, didn't think to pay enough attention)
- This individual stated being very bothered when various button presses would take time to activate - so the team spent considerable effort speeding response times up - but are limited by the hardware (I did not ask about model X having a faster processor)
- This person never uses the web browser (who does LOL), so couldn't comment if it was much faster. When launched, it was set to go to youtube.com - but didn't load in a few seconds and we moved on. Typing this now, youtube is an odd site for it to automatically launch to, I wonder if they added in video playback? but again, the site didn't load, so that is just a guess on my part.
- Car was running 3G - From what I read here, LTE hasn't really sped things up for owners, but this individual indicated it should, FWIW
- Nothing obvious changed with backup camera.
- Panning in Nav seemed smoother/quicker.
- Did not see Music or Energy windows.
- I did joke about there being a bunch of little features that likely were added, the person indicated indeed there are.
- One such little feature, and one this person never even noticed before I pointed to it (in this persons defence, autopilot was their focus, not the V7 overhaul), was a LOCK icon at the very top left of the screen. It appeared to indicate if the doors are locked or not. This individual never actually noticed it there before. Did not test, but I suspect it may be a quick way to lock/unlock the doors - yay.
- The instrument cluster follows the same dark/flat approach.
- The energy graph and nav were on screen. As much as I said 'flat', these two were 'rounded', in the sense of round dials - the energy graph no longer is the rectangular design.
- v7 UI Overhaul is very close, again except for the rounded energy graph (and I'm pretty sure Nav was rounded as well, but less certain)
- As the car wasn't in motion/on (i didn't step on the brake), nothing of note was displayed in the center area.
- It was mentioned that the center area got a large redesign. I honestly couldn't grasp/picture what was being explained to me - it sounded like the round dial interface was gone - which would seem to be represented in the above link/picture.
- The center area is going to show the cars position in relation to the lane markings
- It (or somewhere) will also indicate the position and distance of cars/objects around you - "very dynamic" were the words used.
- It was mentioned that if you got too close to an object beside you, the car would move you away. I interpreted that as a means to prevent/reduce impact of side swiping.
- I asked about working with Elon. This individual apparently works closely with Elon. Elon is is very demanding, but a good guy. Nothing surprising there!
- Ludicrous mode came up. This person stated that after doing several launches, they felt sick - and such was not the case with Insane launches. It sounded pretty intense - but at the same time, this person stated that their opinion was it was not worth the $5000 it would cost to upgrade my P85D. My wife liked hearing that. I'll still likely try to get the upgrade regardless
- Talked about what led to the titanium shield. It was stated at the time the cars ride height was super lower "basically scraping the pavement... similar or lower than ferarri/lambo". Implying our current low (air suspension) ride height is quite a bit higher.
- An unlucky/lucky driver ran over something after getting the titanium shield installed. Tesla service brought the car in, the shield did exactly what it was supposed to and there was no damage to the battery pack
- The titanium shield could need replacement if 'used' - if you run over something that it has to 'crush'. It was made to be very quick and easy to replace.
- This person mentioned that in the 2 instances that resulted in fire (and let to titanium shield), if there wasn't a battery pack under the car (ie gas car) and if everything else was equal, the object would have went through and into the passenger compartment, possibly causing injury/accident.
I think that is about it. There may be a tidbit here or there I forgot to mention. Given that this was very impromptu and that I was super excited to be talking to a Tesla person who was more than willing to answer questions, I'm sure there are questions I should have asked but did not. I tried not to be too bothersome, and I cut it off out of respect to this individual (and my wife, who wanted to get on with our vacation in Cali).
Unrelated, but info gleaned from the factory tour:
- It sounded like tours are handled by 3 people. As a small team, they simply can't handle public tours yet. My wife asked about school tours (being a teacher) - that is in the works, it sounds like some additional staffing is planned, and early next year they want to open it up to public (and school) tours
- The TMC banner that resulted from the pizza drive is in the main employee entrance. Staff had no idea where it was or what I was talking about, but kindly took us there on a whim and it was the right location. These 2 staff walk by it occasionally but just never notice it. Pictures were allowed, but only of the sign.
- Our tour guide was 11am Friday, same time as the announcement. At the beginning of our tour, someone asked our guide what the announcement would be, the guide said they didn't know. I thought he might be faking it. After the tour, when we could use our cell phones again and it was determined it was ludicrous mode and larger battery, that same individual seemed VERY surprised/interested, so I believe he knew nothing (which makes sense, given his role is to talk to the public LOL). Another employee, slightly more senior, admitted he was briefed on some of the announcement, but with minimal detail (of course, he could just be saying minimal detail, I have no idea)
- I feel sorry for Tesla staff at the time of big announcements - people were there picking up their cars after the tour and after the news broke, and people seemed disappointed that their new car wasn't the latest/greatest anymore.
- Out of respect for NDA, won't say much about the tour itself. It wasn't as great as I anticipated it being (expectations maybe too high) - but it was good of course. We had a very pleasant surpriseTesla let a 'skeleton' out of the closet so to speak - and this 'skeleton' had LOTS of signs demanding no photos. Was the highlight of the tour. The "bones" of this "skeleton" were also visible at times through the tour - if you made a point to look for them.
- Model X and Model 3 were mentioned numerous times - although not much was said about the model 3...
- 200 cars a day/1000 a week are being made currently we were told.�
Jul 19, 2015
spentan Thanks for the huge writeup,
definitely makes me want v7 more.
Was there any timeframe mentioned (or did I gloss over it)? As in a couple of months, or 6-12 months?
I do plan to pay for the $5k upgrade to my P85D. I think it'll add to the resale value, easily considering that the P90D with Ludicrous mode will be 13k more.�
Jul 19, 2015
AziwA Great info foot!
very interesting to hear new hardware is requires. Did you ask if you would need to get it retrofitted?�
Jul 19, 2015
bp1000 Nice write up there. I think v7 will be a nice evolution with bigger things to come.
They are testing autopilot all over. There is a car at my local tesla centre here in England with a car with half the dash removed with two laptops and wires hanging everywhere.
They are testing autopilot with real time monitoring all over to ensure it works in all markets.�
Jul 19, 2015
kuttakamina Thanks for this wonderful update. Let's hope v7 rolls out soon.�
Jul 19, 2015
spottyq Thanks for all the great info !�
Jul 19, 2015
Phil K Thank you very much. Very informative and great update.�
Jul 19, 2015
vitaliy Thank you for sharing! Love this forum for this�
Jul 19, 2015
MarcG Very interesting, thanks for sharing. I wonder to what extent the Tesla employee is being optimistic about lane keeping being "almost ready", or thinking it's ready for release but only to beta testers (then having a long beta phase to make sure it's working well enough for the public "at large").
Also, I'm not sure about the idea of having the mothership communicate which areas are safe for lane keeping, and which aren't. On one hand, it may accelerate its release to the areas that are safe. On the other hand, it may become inaccurate as lane markings get worse (for areas that are deemed to have been be safe, which will make the system unreliable) or get better (for area that are deemed to have not been safe, which will prevent drivers in those areas from using lane keeping on roads that will have become perfectly fine).�
Jul 19, 2015
mhpr262 Thanks for taking the trouble of writing up all that info. Did you have a voice recorder running or how did you remember all that info???
Also, Tesla should just offer various settings of how much the autopilot system pesters the driver, with the more "reticent" settings requiring explicit conformation by the driver.�
Jul 19, 2015
caps04 Thanks for posting this Foot. When you say the update is close, what's your sense...weeks or months? Elon has now left it open ended saying the final release will depend on the feedback from the public beta/early access program.�
Jul 19, 2015
andrewket My thoughts exactly. Heck, if you wanted to make it hold up in court, have the owner sign into my portal, read an agreement and virtually sign it. This sends a config bit to your car OTA to disable the nag. I guess the problem with that is a new driver/non owner driver. So you would have to display the warning every time.�
Jul 19, 2015
deonb The way Toyota described their nagging feature to me is that they could not just have you sign an agreement where you agree to let other drivers of your vehicle know about the risk, because if your car is stolen and the thief gets into an accident, Toyota can still be held liable.
Go figure.�
Jul 19, 2015
jbcarioca Thanks for all the detail. From a factory tour during TMC Connect, a brief time ago, I suspect those of us who were there then know what you saw. The NDA precludes discussion of details; too bad because it seemed quite nice to discuss it, from tesla's perspective. OTOH, Elon does like his public 'scoops' doesn't he?�
Jul 19, 2015
Footbag It was indicated autopilot should be available very soon. I didn't press further, and obviously while that sounds good, it is still vague (and it could have meant "soon to testers" or "soon to everyone"). From the conversation as a whole, I would take it that both autopilot and v7 were due at same time, but such was not expliciately mentioned. During this whole exchange, I was feeling out what was appropriate to ask... I asked about about autopilot timeframe early on (was surprised I got a response). Had I asked later, I would have felt a bit more comfortable probing further, something along the lines of "might I have it for my trip home?", but alas, I did not.
My wife was there for the exchange, excluding when I sat in the car. Thus, she asked what I saw new stuff I saw in the car. It was hard to explain to her that I didn't see 'much'... a refreshed (I wouldn't say new) look, but not really any new features. Thus, while I also want v7, aside from autopilot, I'm not ancy with anticipation for it (since I didn't see anything really new - again I am sure there will be a lot of little features that will end up being very nice).
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In case I wasn't clear, the new hardware would be needed for full autonomous driving, matching what Elon has already stated. For the autopilot as initially promised, no new hardware needed. No, I did not ask about retrofit. This individual is not part of that program at this time, so I didn't feel questions about next gen autopilot were appropriate (perhaps I would have gotten answers, who knows, I just really didn't want to ask the wrong thing through all this, and end up having the exchange cut short).
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The fact that this individual was not aware of the comments by Elon the day before seemed a bit troubling, as it relates to how accurate/optimistic "soon" might be. I think this person really believes it is very close to ready, but this is just one person within Tesla. Also, the fact that very recently a change was put in, directly about how the car would pester the driver about autopilot, and this person really didn't like the change (and the change is one that lawyers could be blamed for) <sorry for being a bit vague, it was mentioned what this exact change was, but as this change may only be known to a few within Tesla, I really don't want to call it out in hopes I am protecting this individual in some fashion> gives me the impression that someone 'above' this person is making changes to autopilot, thus this person may not know/control the whole fate of autopilot.
In short, it was nice to hear very soon, but since that was all the info i gleaned, I wouldn't get our collective hopes up! (but i'm still secretly hoping it comes out as I drive home from this great adventure! lol)
The way the info was mentioned about the cars talking back to Tesla (mothership was my term, not this persons) seemed like a very positive thing. It did not sound like it had to do with rolling out out to any specific region (but I never thought of it that way as it was being mentioned, interesting possibility). It was mentioned in response to me asking about Elons comments about the 405 highway (or similar) on Friday, so it seemed like a way to allow the rollout to happen sooner, while accounting for the fact that it was not 'perfect' in all situations. I really liked the idea of crowd sourcing aspects of this. It was not clear to me if this feature was actually in existance, or if it was something they wanted to add in post rollout (maybe it came up within Tesla in response to the issues caused by the 405 highway and similar, and thus hasn't had time to be baked in yet).�
Jul 19, 2015
bonnie It sounds like you handled it exactly right.
And I just want to point out to the general population, that you're not breaking any confidentiality agreement with what you've reported here or breaking a trust. Thanks for sharing.�
Jul 19, 2015
Footbag No recorder. I never expected things to transpire as they had, so I didn't have reason to 'be prepared'. Also, the last time I talked about recording others (the garage test drive), gave me pause to doing it again LOL.
As to remembering it all, it helped I was SUPER interested! Also, my wife, bless her, also was interested (or at the very least pretended to be interested as she saw how excited I was), so we talked about it the rest of the day. Again, I'm sure there are little details I am missing, but pretty sure they indeed are little, I think I got most things.
I agree with you about giving the driver the choice. I am sure this individual would agree as well. I really get the feeling lawyers/similar are involved at this point, so it will be interesting to see how this ends up. Speaking of remembering, it is coming to me that this individual mentioned something along the lines of they (tesla and personally) want to give drivers the benefit of the doubt, and when it comes to the grey area of things, choose the side that the drivers will like... I thought of how the screen allows full use while driving, including GPS entry, web use, and backup camera, as well as how we can set a speed increase/decrease for cruise. And while it is good to hear this person say what they said... it comes back to the one pestering feature, I think we can all appreciate that at some point lawyers (I am using lawyers as a all incompasing term for people that decide things the general population typically does not like!) might need to force something, in an attempt to protect Tesla. I had also mentioned a phrase similar to "if autopilot fails (causes accident) it could be a blow to Tesla" - no real response to my statement by the individual, but I came away thinking Tesla indeed is thinking that.
As I thought, the more I talk about this in replies, the more small tidbits come. This individual also indicated autopilot would need to exist in its current form for several years before real autonomous driving would be acceptable to the law makers.
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My sense, and that is all it is! is by end of August. Really, nothing came out supporting that other than this individual clearly knew things (at least in my eyes!), so in the whole context of the exchange, since very soon was mentioned, very soon seemed realistic, if that makes sense. There is always the chance that this individual was lower than I thought (it is his job description he told me, his frequent interactions with Elon, and his overall knowledge that gives me the impression he was fairly high up in Tesla... if (s)he exagerated any of those <how would I tell> it could change the authority of which his/her words are true. It could be argued that someone high up wouldn't have said as much, maybe this person is a low level tester - maybe, but my sense at the end of the exchange is that this was the person I originally described, and that they were excited about what they were about to deliver to Tesla Owners (autopilot) and decided to get chatty - and maybe it had something to do with them finding out I drove down from Canada (hey this electric car thing really works) and that I was wearing Tesla shirt/hat... who knows!
Put another way, this person wasn't just answering my questions yes/no, they would go on to explain things (like how the car rides higher than before the fire incidents). Yet when I mentioned the lane marking issue, that didn't lead to a discussion how various roads are hard for autopilot to work with (aside from 'talking to mothership') so it seems like this person really felt it was close. I have no idea what conditions this person tests it in. Maybe this person has a 'typical' route they drive which also happens to be ideal - leading to false impressions of readiness. However, given this persons title/role, I would expect they would be taking info in from many others 'below' them - and if so, this would support 'very soon' being more true than optimistic.
At the end of it, sorry, I didn't get anything really helpful regarding time frames LOL.�
Jul 19, 2015
ecarfan @Footbag, thanks for your report. Your member info says you live in Edmonton, but obviously the encounter at the Supercharger you describe did not occur there. [emoji6] Were you in California when this happened?�
Jul 19, 2015
Footbag I suspect we indeed are thinking/talking about the same thing - nothing indicated it was _just_ put in place between TMC Connect and Friday. To those that might not have been at TMC Connect, it isn't anything earth shattering, just something that you would be excited about in the context of a factory tour (in this timeframe).
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Thanks Bonnie. My wife (she played numerous roles in this!) poked me when I made the comment about the 110 speed sign being read as 10 by the car - at the time I thought she was poking me to indicate "lets go" (which I totally ignored given the situation!), but after she clarified she thought maybe the person would feel uncomfortable being told their software made a mistake - a big mistake by the look/comments back. Instead, this person seemed to like the feedback - but the point is, yes it is a delicate balance - one I confess I'm not well practiced in, but I seemed to have done well.
A few times I gave the individual an out "i fully expect you not to answer this..." ie when I asked about time frame, and about seeing v7... yet they answered them lol. yay.
Also thanks for the comment about confidentiality... I was very concerned with that as I typed my 'report'. I didn't think there was anything wrong with it, but this is all new to me, i'm not in the business of gathering secret info! This just fell onto my lap - making a good/great holiday into a fantastic/unforgetable holiday. Which is funny, because in 2 weeks/2 months, whenever autopilot is released, everything that made this exchange so amazing will no longer be amazing, yet at the same time it will still be an amazing experience.
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Yes, from Edmonton, the wife and I drove down for a factory tour. This exchange happened after the tour, not at the factory, by happenstance as we were charging to continue our vacation.�
Jul 19, 2015
LetsGoFast Fascinating report. Thanks for sharing.�
Jul 19, 2015
R�B This means what? All of us with "Autopilot" vehicles won't be getting autopilot?�
Jul 19, 2015
dsm363 This means current Autopilot vehicles won't get full autonomous driving capability (something that was never promised anyway with the current hardware).�
Jul 19, 2015
Footbag This is my understanding, correct.�
Jul 19, 2015
R�B And what's the distinction between Autopilot and autonomous driving?�
Jul 19, 2015
jarym - Autopilot = highway automation (car keeps in its lane and maintains speed in accordance with traffic flow and speed limit) + driver required to keep attention at all times and take-over in case of any technological failure. Car can't be expected to manoeuvre through junctions, traffic lights or avoid any unexpected traffic situation.
- Autonomous driving = type in a destination into the SatNav and sit back and relax until you arrive at your destination. Car will navigate junctions and traffic lights safely detecting other road users, road anomalies and traffic restrictions.�
Jul 19, 2015
dsm363 Exactly. In states it was legal I believe you could even sit in the back seat and fall asleep while the car took you to your destination with full autonomous driving.�
Jul 19, 2015
gg_got_a_tesla Very interesting report. Thanks, footbag. Hope you and your wife had a wonderful vacation overall.
About the mothership notifying the car about dodgy areas vis-a-vis autopilot reliability, I'm sure it'd be based off a database that'd be constantly updated, that too with customer cars navigating through those areas providing upto date feedback to the mothership about condition changes. All anonymized, of course, in order not to compromise customer privacy.�
Jul 19, 2015
MsElectric Great news. I just hope you didn't cost this Tesla employee his job...�
Jul 19, 2015
bonnie I thought about that. But if he's as senior as indicated, he knew exactly what he was sharing & any associated consequences. If any. I would take the fact that this much information was shared as indicative that this sw version is close to release.�
Jul 19, 2015
SR-71-BlackBird Probably a deliberate leak.�
Jul 19, 2015
AziwA To what end?�
Jul 19, 2015
Soolim +1 For some company such as Canon and Nikon, this is common. The intent is often to soften negative impact to existing customer plus creating doubts on customer who might be considering competitors.�
Jul 19, 2015
Andyw2100 I was thinking the same thing.
And I'm not attaching any negative connotations to that. If Tesla occasionally, for whatever reason, wants to give those of us who read these forums religiously little bits and pieces of information unofficially, I think that's fine.
As to the "to what end" comment, obviously they can't be held to anything gleaned from this conversation, which is a positive for them. On the other hand, the information released could go a long way towards calming the waters that have been getting stirred up.
Knowing how tight-lipped Tesla employees who actually have inside information normally are, as compared to this exchange really makes me think there was a conscious decision made to allow this information out. Again--I'm not being critical of that. I'm just saying, among other things, that I don't think anyone needs to be concerned that this employee is going to get in trouble.
Edit: I forgot to thank Footbag for taking the time to write it all up for us! Thanks very much, Footbag!�
Jul 19, 2015
wk057 Cool write up. This is pretty much in line with the Tesla employees I have had the opportunity to candidly pester on the matter as well, with only a few exceptions probably partly because your information is a hair more recent than mine.
I won't go into too much detail of my conversations since some were in implied or explicitly requested confidence, but I'll just stick with saying that the above post being pretty much in line with that I've heard.�
Jul 19, 2015
AziwA Good points. this probably means that Tesla has made a conscious decision to not be as tight lipped as normal, in the hopes that someone like footbag would then provide a nice write up for us on the forum. I wonder if we will start seeing more experiences like his and more people willing to write up their experiences..
either way, I am glad it happened and thankful for Footbag for the writeup.�
Jul 19, 2015
FreeOfPge DUDE! This is the first 'long' post that I have read through to the end. Even if it is a deliberate leak, well done.�
Jul 19, 2015
Footbag u
Or is that her...
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About the deliberate leak. No. People can vouch that I have no association with Tesla myself. The individual certainly may have chosen to share info, but I can't see how they would have expected that I would be on the forums. I've chatted to many owners at Superchargers, and none this far are on TMC, so I can't see Tesla expecting a random fellow (me) to be the one guy out of a bunch on the forums.
Just chatted to another MFG driver at the Vacaville SC just now. His car had wheel sensors. I was taking pictures when he returned to his car. Will share them in a bit. He also takes to me, but only for a couple of minutes. The wheel sensors were to test driving dynamics and efficiency at different air pressures.
His car was badged 60 but had 85 on the IP. It also was running v7, same build (by stated build date) as the other person. He told me he was directly told not to talk about it, which I was going to respect. I did ask specific ally about the lock icon I mentioned before since I could see it from out side. He confirmed it locks and unlocks the doors. He let me glance inside, and I can confirm the navigation on the IP looks different but mainly because it is dark, not light like we have. The last thing he offered up was that there is now going to be a screen that will show brake light status while driving.
�
Jul 19, 2015
CTShore Brake light status-yes! Have been using the battery charge page to "view" my brakes as I learn how the system works. Thanks for posting that.�
Jul 19, 2015
Andyw2100 I can't speak for anyone else, but I certainly didn't mean to imply that you were anything other than helpful, and certainly in no way part of any sort of coordinated effort to have the information leak.
As for your point as to how leaking to a random person at a supercharger would result in the info making it to TMC, while it may not be efficient, I'd respectfullly suggest that if Tesla were to repeat that process enough times at enough superchargers, there would be a very high likelihood of the information making it onto TMC.�
Jul 19, 2015
dsm363 If you were trying to hide his identity posting the VIN will give that away.�
Jul 19, 2015
gg_got_a_tesla We are all probably reading too much into the purported motive behind these serendipitous conversations; Tesla folks have too much on their hands to try to coordinate such leaks.
Good to hear about the quick lock/unlock button and the brake lights display!�
Jul 19, 2015
hockeythug That air pressure testing device is so cool.�
Jul 19, 2015
Ugliest1 Unless I'm mistaken, that VIN is from the 2nd employee, the one that said he wasn't allowed to talk about much, and then didn't.�
Jul 19, 2015
ecarfan It was stated that VIN had MFG plates on it so I would think a VIN search would show the owner as "Tesla Motors".�
Jul 19, 2015
dsm363 I meant that Tesla knows who is driving that car.�
Jul 19, 2015
Footbag Nothing implied
I wanted to mention that this second time seeing the ip I noticed a small battery gauge roughly where the date time is for us currently. So it seems the large battery indicator we have is going away. Also, fwiw the lock icon I mentioned looks just like the one we currently have on the left of our IP that I only noticed for the first time today.
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I wasnt really this second time. He was professional and gave two small tid bits of info and briefly explained the contraption on his wheels, which was far from subtle (and obviously had to do with air pressure) . He also said he couldn't talk about v7, which he essentially did not.�
Jul 19, 2015
AlMc Excellent write up. I greatly appreciate the detail and your time.�
Jul 19, 2015
donv Given that they monitor these forums pretty closely, and are no doubt aware of the rumblings about the lateness of autopilot, I suspect that talking to some people at superchargers with the expectation that it will get back here is not a bad strategy.
They don't have to specifically order the guys to talk about it, just loosen the restrictions on what they can talk about.
Thanks for the writeup!�
Jul 19, 2015
Footbag One last thing. I turned night mode on on my display and that instantly gives a very good impression as to what I saw in v7. Makes me wonder if the v7s I saw were in night mode on purpose.
I'm glad I was able to provide some value to the forum. It was quite an experience driving with you Americans�
Jul 19, 2015
brucet999 New hardware necessary for Autonomous Driving, he said.�
Jul 19, 2015
beeeerock Lots of interesting stuff, thanks Footbag!
Thinking about the misreading of 110 as 10, I wonder if you took the Coquihalla on your way down? I've been over Kamloops - Merritt and back a few times now and find that the camera typically doesn't read the 120 signs anywhere on that route. GPS still has it as 110, and that's what cruise works with. Doesn't seem to matter which lane I'm in, or which way the sun is shining - it just fails, consistently. If I'm not the only one, that stretch of road would be a good piece for them to drive and test on. I've offered my name for the early release program, or whatever they call the beta testing program, but have yet to be called. Given the numbers who'd want to do it ahead of me, that's hardly a surprise.
Glad to hear the brake lights will be shown. I'm constantly wondering whether I look like a two foot driver from behind, or if someone is going to rear-end me because the light hasn't gone on. Getting a feel for how that regen/brake light connection is made will be great.
I don't suppose the speedo had a toggle for Wh/km instead of kW did it?? I'd love to see that made configurable by the driver. It would also be great to see more info managed on the trip meters... average speed, driving time etc... more in line with what the competition typically has shown for decades. All very fine to know the distance and average power consumption, but how that relates to speed is extremely relevant.�
Jul 19, 2015
brucet999 Maybe it would re-route you around I-405 through Denver or somewhere.
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That would be the second one, with wheel sensors and driver who was unwilling to answer questions.�
Jul 20, 2015
dpodoll May be released about 2 years from now to entice folks to trade up from Auto Pilot to Autonomous. We traded and vintage 60 for a 70D because we wanted Auto Pilot. Put me on the list for the new sensor suite...�
Jul 20, 2015
steph280 I had to make a trip to LAX over the weekend. Elon's comment about poor marking on 405 made me pay extra attention to the markings, and he was right. Portions of the road had almost non-existent markings that even human eyes had difficulties reading, and some portions had fresh tar patches over cracks that could easily be mistaken as lane markings. I can see how this would cause big problems with autopilot software.
I like the idea mentioned in OP: Warn driver of potential auto pilot issues in upcoming portion of road. But this would mean they'd have to construct database of all these data and maintain it, as things such as road repairs could bring up new issues.
As much as I would like to have autopilot now, I can understand the problems they are facing. Certainly not an easy problem to solve.�
Jul 20, 2015
kuttakamina Sure but if a human would have difficulties, it's a bit of a tall order to expect autopilot to work on it too. They should roll it out IMO.
I just hope they don't roll it out with a constant annoying beep or something while its in action.�
Jul 20, 2015
Blurry_Eyed I was on a road-trip from Redmond to the Bay area this past February (2015). Stopped at the Mt. Shasta Supercharger/BestWestern Tree House hotel and saw this black test car. I didn't talk to any of the Tesla team that was there. The black one was the only car with all the test gear on it. All three of the cars were convoying together and there were also support trucks as well.
I snapped these pictures. There were black squares all around the car (the one on the rear of the car looks kind of like a black square that was in one of the Model X pictures in the X forum Mule thread). There was also gear from this company: Start - Ibeo Automotive Systems in the trunk of the car. My theory is that this may be a benchmark car that Tesla is using to gather data about how a very expensive laser scanner system performs vs. the software/hardware systems they are developing. I wouldn't imagine they would use a full sensor suite of laser scanners all around the car as the cost of the system would be quite expensive. But who knows?
�
Jul 20, 2015
brianman Random data point:
This same wheel contraption was seen outside Palo Alto HQ (we took a walk during the party) on a different Model S vehicle. There was a post-it note in the vehicle with a May date saying something to the effect of "don't update the firmware on this vehicle!"�
Jul 20, 2015
MsElectric Maybe it will go woof woof when you take your hands off the steering wheel�
Jul 20, 2015
kuttakamina As long as it's a girl doggie woof woof ..�
Jul 20, 2015
LetsGoFast I recognize that gear. Virginia Tech has used it in their self-driving lab. Its the Ibeo LUX Fusion system. Its a multi-plane laser scanner system that generates dot clouds used to identify objects with much greater precision than radar. You can see pictures of the same gear in Paul D'angio's dissertation.�
Jul 20, 2015
wayner @footbag - Any discussion about autonomous driving in snowy conditions? IMHO it doesn't seem like Tesla has considered this very much as the front radar under the nose cone takes about 10 seconds to get covered with snow or slush in Canadian winters. Low contrast lines on I-405 are one thing, but a layer of ice and snow on Highway 2 is much harder to deal with.�
Jul 20, 2015
MorrisonHiker Thanks for the pictures, Blurry_Eyed. Based on the indentation on the rear bumper and the laser scanner equipment that you spotted within, I think we now know what the indentation on the rear bumper is for on the Model X.�
Jul 20, 2015
Yggdrasill I'm 95% sure that's a GPS antenna on the roof.�
Jul 20, 2015
steph280 No. GPS antenna (along with cell antennas) are inside the passenger side mirror housing.
Carbon fiber side view mirror caps and wha't under them�
Jul 20, 2015
rxlawdude What part of "Limitations: Autopilot components may not be fully functional or may provide inaccurate information in these situations: Visibility poor (heavy rain, SNOW, fog, etc.), bright light interfering with the camera, ... Model S is being driven in extremely hot or cold conditions" has eluded you?
Show me one from any manufacturer that doesn't have such disclaimers AND works in the conditions you describe. Good luck! :smile:�
Jul 20, 2015
Blurry_Eyed There were six sensors around the test car that I saw at Mt. Shasta (One by each wheelwell for a total of 4 on the sides of the car and one in the front nose of the car, where the current camera is for autopilot equipped cars, and one in the middle of the back bumper) and the Ibeo website says the LUX Fusion system can sync up to six sensors, so that makes total sense. Maybe Tesla is trying to do a version of fusing in software where they take the ultrasonic data they get from the ultrasonics around the car and then fuse it with the rear laser sensor and the tri-camera that is mounted on the inside of the rearview mirror of the car and come up with a lower cost solution to make the rear detection better than a mono camera system might allow. That would be pretty intriguing for the Model X autopilot system.�
Jul 20, 2015
WillAustin I'm very sure they won't obligate themselves to autopilot working in anything but optimal conditions. Everything will have a disclaimer attached.�
Jul 20, 2015
Todd Burch And they shouldn't obligate themselves beyond that anyway. After all, it's a visual system. It's a camera detecting the lanes. If the camera can't see lane markings, I don't see how people would expect lane keeping to work.
Snow on the ground? Heavy rain? Fog? Faint lines? Lots of extraneous pavement markings? Don't get your hopes up about lane keeping working in these situations. They don't in other cars, and won't in any car for a long time.�
Jul 20, 2015
donv You know, this little thread has done a remarkable job of tamping down the discontent (for now) about the lateness of autopilot. See what a little bit of disclosure does?�
Jul 20, 2015
Andyw2100 I'm not suggesting this thread has had no effect, but I think a little announcement about Ludicrous mode, and the distraction that has caused might just also be a factor.�
Jul 20, 2015
Footbag No discussion about that, sorry. As others point out, not much Tesla can do about those types of issues in the near future. I was keeping an eye on our main freeways through town last winter... they typically were clear (what I would expect would be needed for autopilot) within a couple days of most snow falls, and we don't get snow every day. Granted, it may be different in Toronto. I think I would be satisfied getting to use Autopilot 50%-75% in the winter, and would understand that the remainder of it, perhaps it is better that a person is in control - even just for ice and stupid drivers in the conditions.�
Jul 20, 2015
brucet999 +1 Until the autonomous system can look ahead two or three cars looking for brake lights or squirrely driving, humans will do better in bad weather conditions.�
Jul 20, 2015
lennier The MobilEye machine vision system Tesla uses is certainly working on methods that don't rely on seeing lane markings, but which interpret other features in the image to infer where the vehicle should be tracking, in the same way humans do in such conditions. Assuming they achieve a good enough result then I'd expect Tesla will start exploiting that information in future releases. There will always be limits of course, but they may well push further than people think based on assumptions about tracking lane markings.�
Jul 20, 2015
kuttakamina Speak for yourself buddy. Perhaps in some parallel universe or another plane of time.
In this reality, Autopilot is late. Way late than it should have been. This thread makes no difference to that.
And 11 months after the announcement, and the website bragging about incredible features that just aren't there, is simply unjustifiable.
They should have rolled out Autopilot 6 months ago. If not, they need to roll that out NOW!�
Jul 20, 2015
scottf200 So even at the risk of it not working very very good and perhaps some major accident happening with potential lives at stake.
But you're angry and just wanted it delivered "NOW" because it is late regardless of the consequences.
Pretty sad perspective you have.�
Jul 20, 2015
kuttakamina So please tell me where did I say "please roll it out now even if it is unsafe". I don't think I ever said that.
The very fact that they don't have the capability to make a safe autopilot after 10 months of beating their chests about it .. is just flat out wrong.
I don't see anything wrong about being frustrated about not being delivered, what was promised, and what has been paid for.
You may give them slack for being the earth saver great company they are. Realize that some of us are just customers who want what we paid for.
This is not a kickstarter, neither is it charity, nor am I a Tesla investor. I am a Tesla customer, demanding for what I have paid for.
I don't see anything wrong with asking for what I was promised, and have paid for.
And just to be clear, I didn't pay for an unsafe autopilot. That would be ridiculous no?�
Jul 20, 2015
spentan The way I see it, I'd be happy for them to roll it out as beta and we can make it better by sending bug reports and providing statistics.
When it was first released, TACC had some pretty big issues (follow distance wasn't right, reaction was not correctly judged etc) but it got better over time and I think that'd be what we need with auto steering. Even just a rudimentary version that doesn't always work (but notifies you when it's disengaged) would still make it better than the Mercedes Benz system�
Jul 21, 2015
Yggdrasill Okay, correction: I'm 95% sure that's a *high-precision* GPS antenna on the roof. I would think that either the standard GPS antenna doesn't give the desired precision, or they simply didn't want to tamper with the standard GPS antenna.�
Jul 21, 2015
AmpedRealtor It's 9 months, not 11 months. Autopilot was announced in October.
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You paid for a promise of something that would happen in the near future. We are still well within that time frame.�
Jul 21, 2015
perkiset I think you obviously have never had to do a project around the house, where you had to take 3+ trips to Home Depot to actually get something done that was more difficult or involved than you had thought. Much less any software development. Further, developed anything where people's lives LITERALLY depend on it.
Your anger does not move the ball forward. We all paid for it and we will get it. And when we finally do, it will be probably 85% of what everyone wants and will STILL go through bug fixes. But it will be great.
I think this thread has been a great exposition of the fact that they are working their butts off, trying to get it right as quickly as possible. Thanks 'Foot for making such a diligent report.�
Jul 21, 2015
wayner Autopilot would be useful in Toronto at least 90% off the time in the winter. In Toronto the roads are typically cleared of snow within a day or two of snowfall. But on some streets you can expect snowpacked roads for a long time - and I thought that was even more frequent where there is no melting until spring.
I am thinking ahead to where there are more and more cars on autopilot which is supposed to lead to reduced congestion. Think of the chaos that snow will cause on those days when you can't use autopilot and everyone is used to always using autopilot - we will become like those places where the city shuts down when 0.25" of snow falls.�
Jul 21, 2015
Ugliest1 You mean Victoria? I thought we had a fleet of snowplow once - but they may have sold it. (No, that is not meant to be plural)�
Jul 21, 2015
Max* I think people are putting too much weight on the autopilot and what it can/should handle.
The issue with snow needs to be dealt in full-autonomous driving (Level 4). I don't think even Level 3 has to handle snow, it just needs to allow the driver to give up control in most situations and give the driver ample notice to regain control.
Right now we're awaiting autopilot (Level 2). They have a long ways to go... (5-20 years, depending on who's estimate you rely on)�
Jul 21, 2015
kuttakamina So 3 months time EST (Elon Standard Time) = 5-20 years in real people time? :scared:�
Jul 21, 2015
Max* I know you're trying to be funny, but we were never promised AUTONOMOUS driving (5-20 years). We were promised AUTOPILOT (months, I hope).
ETA: I see how my structure made it look like the parenthetical emphasis was for the autopilot, not autonomous driving. My bad.�
Jul 21, 2015
kuttakamina Yup!�
Jul 21, 2015
AmpedRealtor In my opinion, Autopilot is a major lawsuit waiting to happen. And I'm not talking about the delay in releasing it.�
Jul 21, 2015
Chasedrgc1223 The main thing about autopilot is that it's called "autopilot" for a reason. The primary reason for this is because it's a DRIVER ASSIST (much like how autopilot is on a plane) where the driver (or pilot) is still in overall control of the vehicle. This was in order to limit Tesla's liability into the issue, and from individuals I've talked to at Tesla, they have reiterated autopilot as being an advanced driver assistance rather than autonomy.�
Jul 21, 2015
Pollux I just wish they'd add a little wiper or something for the rear view camera so that the darned thing doesn't become useless for more than half the year in wet / snowy / slushy / muddy climates.
�
Jul 21, 2015
mgboyes Why? There's no announced feature that isn't already shipping on a BMW or Mercedes. The S Class has had automatic highway lane keeping for 18 months, along with a load of collision avoidance, rear collision detection, blind spot safety etc stuff that even Tesla haven't said they're building. The BMW 7 series will park and unpark itself without a driver inside. And parallel and perpendicular Park Assist have been around for about 5 years and are now appearing as options on everyday family cars.
Autopilot is a fantastic bit of PR/branding wrapped around a load of features that (so far) is just playing catch-up with the Germans.
With self-steering they've even said that the Tesla Engineering team own an S Class and their benchmark is to better it for self-steering, which is as close to an admission as you can get that they're just implementing a better version of a feature that another car already has.�
Jul 21, 2015
Soolim What we don't know is whether they will beat it in this current autopilot (delayed) package or the future enhanced autopilot package (may be in MX?). I hope it is the former, then we would be all happy feeling that the delayed release is well worth it. :smile:�
Jul 21, 2015
steilkurve Nothing wrong with bettering what already exists. That's how companies like Apple transform categories. They make what is often clunky great.�
Jul 21, 2015
mgboyes Agreed. But I don't think bettering Mercedes' self-steering function is going to open any floodgates towards legal action.�
Jul 21, 2015
travwill Opinion 1: Autopilot will be a neat to have, not a need to have for most of us. Steering is something we have to always be prepared to take control of and the current implementation of lane departure false warnings with lines in road in most areas I've driven, in a major city on freeways, won't have me feeling like I trust it.
Off Topic on Apple: Apple sure is headed the way of less simplification now it seems with the feeling to always have something new. Honestly as a lot of articles have shown is that they are over engineering iOS to the point that its complicated and the simplicity selling point that always existed is going away. Tech is cyclical - and Apple won't remain king by all means. P.S. Carplay is horrible compared to Tesla's current OS/environment already.�
Jul 21, 2015
kuttakamina Yup Apple is the new Microsoft. Good thing they lock the OS down so you can't actually see how bad it really is. Your 64gb iPhone is 20% full of temporary files if you've been doing iCloud backups for a few years and have migrated across a few phones. Also their markups on everything are just absurd. $100 for an extra 16gb memory? It should be 5 bucks, not 100.
Back to Tesla, given how ready autopilot is, I feel we will see update OS notification within a month. Can't wait. If nothing else that new UI looks far better and there are always new hidden nuggets to explore�
Jul 21, 2015
travwill Agree and agree. Can't wait for the first REAL update us newbies will get
That, and then a real good iOS update to the app before Winter will make me happy. I definitely just want to be able to warm up the car, defrost, and turn on the toasty steering wheel & seats before jumping in. I'll give you guys at Tesla until end of October for that one!
T�
Jul 21, 2015
Andyw2100 You may not realize it yet, but what you'll really want is the ability to warm up the battery pack independent of cabin heating, and without having to remember to turn range mode off. If they give us that, I don't care about the steering wheel. (That heats up pretty quickly anyway!)
Would you use battery heating if it were available?�
Jul 21, 2015
Cosmacelf The last time Apple was afflicted with the complexity disease was in the 1990s with MacOS. It got fixed when Steve Jobs came back to Apple. Not sure what's going to happen now. I agree, iOS is bloated and getting way, way too complicated.�
Jul 21, 2015
neroden I don't like the news of a lower-contrast screen and instrument panel. What possible good can come of that?
Hope they rethink the color scheme before delivery to keep it high-contrast.�
Jul 21, 2015
Cosmacelf I agree neroden.�
Jul 22, 2015
steilkurve Don't disagree that Apple isn't as tight as thy used to be (they compromise too much now) but iPhone remains the easiest smartphone to use IMO. Highly subjective but easier than Android. That's my point here. Auto steering features exist but I think Tesla has what it takes to do it better than the others, like Apple does (or used to do well if you insist).�
Jul 22, 2015
travwill So, I'd go ahead and tell everyone this. Since I have to go on long work trip and vacation (without coming back home) this Saturday for a couple weeks, it will likely come out right after I leave, so I can get the notification and be tortured knowing it is at home waiting for weeks! So expect it in about a week ;-)�
Jul 22, 2015
kuttakamina My guess is, they will have a mega announcement with
- Roll out of autopilot
- Model X design studio open
- Maybe some hardware upgrades tied to Model X
.. that said, their earnings call is next week. They would like to have some good news right around that call.�
Jul 22, 2015
Max* "Good news! We can make autopilot work! We're so excited! P.S. it'll be provided to the general public soon" (aka in 12-18 months)�
Jul 22, 2015
kuttakamina 
�
Jul 22, 2015
travwill Makes sense. Man they always push right up until the end to meet their commitments. July Model X design studio was "in July" so right here at end of month. Seems like Autopilot "rolling out in X days" would also be a good announcement (ha, like apple does a new OS, that same day), etc. Model X pricing reveal as part of the design is the big deal for the market next week - it isn't expect to be affordable by any means still, exceeding Model S pricing.
No more P85 speed updates needed for a long while please - focus on being a profitable & surviving company please�
Jul 22, 2015
AmpedRealtor I just don't have much faith in Tesla's software QA, so fully expect something terrible to happen on the road. I certainly hope not, but that's my gut feeling. It will be like the Tesla car fires all over again, and with NHTSA getting involved. I think Tesla is taking on too much risk with Autopilot. Model S would have sold just fine without lane keeping/Autopilot functionality.�
Jul 22, 2015
Max* To be fair, all the safety critical components of the car work reliably. Some of the other software (that controls the 17" display, nav, etc.) has bugs.�
Jul 22, 2015
Gwgan I think we won't see v7 until after DEFCON (Aug 6-9) even if it ready now, just in case it needs a security fix.�
Jul 22, 2015
Stoneymonster Why would you own a car made by people you don't trust with safety cricital software?�
Jul 22, 2015
AlMc I may be the only TMC member to think this way.....but.....I could care less about autopilot features beyond blind spot monitoring and TACC. I bought the car to actually drive it, not have it drive me.
If I want a car in the future that drives me I will buy a car who has 0-60 in 6-7 seconds and a top speed of 80mph.
The only reason I want to see autopilot features is that Tesla will be seen as a leader in the field. Otherwise, I won't be using them.�
Jul 22, 2015
brianman Off by a week.�
Jul 22, 2015
Sosius Footbag, does this look something like the v7 you saw?
�
Jul 22, 2015
TexasEV Here's another one. (Not that I could use autopilot, I have a two year old "classic", but I don't plan on trading mine for an autopilot equipped version any time soon.)�
Jul 22, 2015
sandpiper That's exactly what I was thinking; a leaker sent out to hang out at the supercharger and await an enthusiast. It was a way of quieting the dissent amongst the faithful without making an official announcements. They answered for too many questions for this to be anything but.�
Jul 22, 2015
RichardL Completely agree�
Jul 22, 2015
kuttakamina Ywah they delayed it by a week. It's August 5 now. Was supposed to be July 29.�
Jul 22, 2015
Gizmotoy You're not the only one. The lack of blind spot monitoring is maybe the largest complaint I have about my car, so I'd appreciate that feature at least. I've used my cruise control maybe 3 times in the nearly 2 years I've had the car. I would probably use autopilot if it handled stop-and-go traffic for me, but short of that I'd probably not use it. The extra cost would have to be weighed carefully if I were buying now.
Really interesting news on the updates and new software, though. Thanks for all the details.�
Jul 22, 2015
R�B Very cool. If we get half of this I'll be happy.�
Jul 22, 2015
RichardL Lets hope Tesla have seen this :tongue:�
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