Thứ Bảy, 31 tháng 12, 2016

Elon tweet re: lack of instrument cluster part 2

  • Apr 5, 2016
    1208
    I'm calling it now. Its going to be in the top of the steering wheel.

    [?IMG]
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  • Apr 5, 2016
    KenF
    That is impressive. I would definitely pay extra for a HUD like that.
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  • Apr 5, 2016
    spectrablue
    I've been following this thread closely as there must be a speed/indicator display of some sort in front of the driver, be it a small IP cluster, HUD, or in-steering wheel display. (and there must be radio and other control buttons on the steering wheel)

    The company I work for has a saying, give the customer what they didn't even know they needed...
    Why have instructions or a warning light on a panel below when you can paint it directly on the windshield:
    [?IMG]
    *from the TI site referenced earlier...
    Everything on that screen behind the steering wheel is redundant, so eliminate the entire display, it's not needed!

    I have faith, it will be something great!
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  • Apr 5, 2016
    MP3Mike
    Why? There are currently cars on the road that don't have this.
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  • Apr 5, 2016
    CarlitoDoc
    @MP3Mike So, I have a follow up question regarding the HUD. Is is safe to assume that you will not be able to see it if you are wearing polarized glasses?
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  • Apr 5, 2016
    ikjadoon
    Super common question. Let's answer it:

    Why?

    1. Ask any Model S owner if their 17" display has ever lagged, frozen, or required a restart. If the 3 only has one screen, then information like speedometer readings, charge status, electrical malfunctions, turn signal status, gear/drive indicator, etc. are all tied to this one screen. If Tesla had delivered a perfect Model S screen, I wouldn't be concerned. But ask Model S owners and it's one of their few, but serious, complaints. And, as far as I can tell, Tesla has never publicly acknowledged a fix. I can't remember the last time someone in a brand-new IP/IC-equipped car ever said, "Yeah, I'm at 56 mph, no worries, that cop won't care. Oh, wait, the speedometer lagged out, crap, I'm really going 73 mph!" cue sirens

    2. Night time driving: Model S owners say now it's not a big issue. But, are they people driving in the country, where it is essentially pitch black outside? You could just say, "Turn down the brightness and activate night mode if it's not automatically activated." But, if something happens, you want to know all car status immediately (gear/drive, turn signal, charge, electrical malfunctions, etc.)...if it's a dark screen, that's hard to read. Now, if it's an OLED screen, this could be worked around because parts of the screen can be turned off essentially.

    No other car today puts literally all car information into a single LCD display.
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  • Apr 5, 2016
    ikjadoon
    Depends on the type of HUD. Traditional HUD: can't see with polarized glasses. Texas Instruments new DLP-based HUD: no problem with polarization. Or, the most expensive option, embedded transparent OLED in the windshield: everybody can see it! haha.
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  • Apr 5, 2016
    scaesare
    The micromirrors on a DLP chip can reflect light in any polarization, and the rest of the optic engine does not require polarization filters either. Thus DLP is inherently a technology that typically works with polarized glasses.

    This is unlike LCD and LCoS/SXRD displays, which rely on permitting/blocking light based on it's polarization. And thus, even when permitting the light through, it's only that which is polarized in one orientation, which can then cause problems with glasses polarized in the other.

    (note there are some combos which are less likely to cause problems, such as circularly polarized displays and linearly polarized lenses, etc...)
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  • Apr 5, 2016
    p1l0t3
    The DLP Hud system, is nice but it is also what's (almost) already in use in aviation. Either military or civil planes cockpits have all that already (link to a 360 view of A380 cockpit).

    And here is the most recent A350 cockpit 360 view.

    Also I wouldn't forget this last year news : free form lcd displays.
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  • Apr 5, 2016
    yesup
    I am not convinced.
    No other car has redundancy in warning lights and indicator. Why should Model 3 need one?
    Tesla should fix the lag/frozen screen issue rather than an expensive hardware solution.

    Actually, most cars with dual screen would put warning lights/indicator on one screen only - there is no redundancy.
    And in Mercedes S class and the new E class, even though the wide display consists of two screens placed side by side, they are driven by the same CPU unit, so again no redundancy if it crashes or freezes.
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  • Apr 5, 2016
    yesup
    DLP HUD is expensive as well, at least compared with the traditional LED ones.
    No production car has one as far as I know.

    So no, don't expect to see one in a "mass-market affordable" Model 3.
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  • Apr 5, 2016
    Foxhound199
    What makes you think the information will be redundant? A lot of the stuff on the upper left corner of the prototype looked like they were just slapped on top of the map. If they put them in a HUD (or whatever else), they won't keep it obscuring the map on the touchscreen. That would just be silly.
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  • Apr 5, 2016
    yesup
    I was responding to ikjadoon who said that a HUD is needed because the single screen may freeze.
    And I agree with you, having a HUD or an extra screen won't make any difference and those info would not be replicated in the second display device. My point is that a HUD is not necessary and we won't see one in Model 3.
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  • Apr 5, 2016
    jwilf
    I think it's got to be a HUD. But not just any HUD - I think the projector will be not be a single device in front of the driver, but instead will be a strip of LEDs stretching right across the dashboard. That way any image can be clearly projected onto any point in your vision.

    Think about it - Tesla is all about surpassing expectations. They don't want to make the best electric car for 35k, they want to make the best car. A car that only has a central display will not be the "best car" in most people's eyes.
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  • Apr 5, 2016
    yesup
    Elon said that he has learned his lessons with Model X.
    With Model 3, ease of manufacturing and delivering the car on time is of prime importance. So you think he would create a system that no car has done it before and risk delaying the launch?

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  • Apr 5, 2016
    jkk_
    Most likely, and that concept looks extremely nice.
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  • Apr 5, 2016
    thx1139
    Model 3 displays should be simple and not be something new. Save new tech for update Model S and Model X. I believe that Tesla will learn lesson of Model X and build first generation Model 3 to take advantage of what is available today and easy to source. I said in the investors thread that it would be nice to have a simple method for driver to know, outside of center console, current speed, autopilot status an and safety messages. Think of it as just the middle portion of Model S driver display. Leave entertainment, navigation, etc. for the center console.
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  • Apr 5, 2016
    ELRev
    This is gonna be me in my office chair every day for the next 2 years.

    Pedal to the metal, Commander!
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  • Apr 5, 2016
    J1mbo
    No other car... except the 2016 Audi TT.
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  • Apr 5, 2016
    jwilf
    Except that Audi display is right in front of the driver... not in the middle of the car.
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  • Apr 5, 2016
    yesup
    What difference does it make?
    Putting it directly in front of driver is something we are used to, but not necessary better.
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  • Apr 5, 2016
    J1mbo
    So what? All the info is literally on one display.
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  • Apr 5, 2016
    MP3Mike
    And that prevents lag and single point of failure how? (Since those seem to be the biggest reasons people say that the center 15" display can't be real.)
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  • Apr 5, 2016
    ecarfan
    There is no legal requirement that even something as basic as the current speed be DIRECTLY in front of the driver. Placing that information on the center display as shown in the 3 reveal satisfies legal requirements and I think it will work just fine. But it is clear from Elon's tweets that the final version of the car will contain something much more exciting.

    And as for a drawback of a single center display being that it is a "single point of failure": if the display goes down you can still drive the car just fine, and you can reboot it. In my 2+ years of owning my S I have had the center display freeze less than 5 times, I reboot it and all is well. Maybe twice I have had to reboot my drivers display, while driving, and it wasn't a problem.
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  • Apr 5, 2016
    GoTslaGo
    I don't know the space constraints, but I wonder if Tesla should consider using a 17" display placed in landscape mode if they are eliminating the front dash. The 15" just seemed a little cramped from the test drive videos I watched.

    Old eyes (like mine) may have trouble picking out the speed and relevant numbers from the background traffic map or whatever. I assume they will have a flippable option of the background like the S (and X?).

    Maybe they could have a sedate background option for one screen. Also the screens seemed offset in size which would be useful, can put smaller "neutral" screen behind the speed, etc to make them pop out. I guess they could also have different sizing for the main "dash" information.

    Just some thoughts...
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  • Apr 5, 2016
    T-Will
    In one of the test drive videos, the driver said Tesla had gained experience in the use of layered glass in the Model X to block heat from the sun. But I wonder if we'll learn that they've somehow integrated a computer screen into the glass in the windshield. I guess that sounds too far-fetched, but who knows. :D
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  • Apr 5, 2016
    bryand
    ...and then you get a stone chip in the windscreen and you have to replace the whole lot? I don't think so.
    Having the speedo on the central display may be legally acceptable but it's very poor human factors design. Information that important should be displayed unambiguously, not against the background of a scrolling map.
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  • Apr 5, 2016
    Daliman
    This is Elon at the controls for his SpaceX capsule. I don't actually think there are many clues here if they want the Model 3 to be simple to manufacture. I am placing my money on the touchscreen with a HUD display for the most basic data.

    [?IMG]
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  • Apr 5, 2016
    Daliman
    Surely something much more complex than this is easily within the capacity of Tesla's engineering staff so long as it is within the price envelope. Frankly I can't believe what they are planning for this car for $35,000. It would go along way to allowing the driver, if one is actually required, control the vehicle and still have access to basic information and control the systems without distraction.

    Navdy
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  • Apr 5, 2016
    RyDad1
    I know the current display will probably change in one way or another before production starts, but I'm kind of partial to the portrait mode screen intergrated into the center of the dash like the S/X....It just seems like the space between the steering wheel and the M3 display is a bit tight...
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  • Apr 5, 2016
    yesup
    Surely, it is your choice what to display on the screen.
    If you don't like the map, turn it off.
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  • Apr 5, 2016
    FloridaJohn
    Does anyone have any comparison pictures of the dashboards in the Model S and X as they were initially revealed and then what they looked like at product release?

    That may give us some hint on how much they can change.
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  • Apr 5, 2016
    yesup
    The reason for the landscape mode is for the screen to replace the instrument panel.
    Landscape mode, and making the screen separate from the dash allow them to place the left upper edge of the screen much closer to the driver's line of sight.

    If you use a portrait screen which is integrated into the central console, you would have to move your eyes a lot further from the road to see the info.
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  • Apr 5, 2016
    yesup
    Someone posted the pictures earlier, may even be this thread....

    Anyways, the dash shape and molding has changed, and the screen was integrated into the centre console instead of a floating design in the X prototype.
    But the general design concept of LED instrument panel + large 17" portrait screen in the centre console did not change.
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  • Apr 5, 2016
    Az_Rael
  • Apr 5, 2016
    ikjadoon
    The entire LCD screen is an "expensive hardware solution" to dials/clusters/binnacle. I guarantee you that dials, buttons, and a standard OEM radio headunit is miles away cheaper than an LCD screen, with custom software.

    And, of course, on the Mercedes S class / E class, I would say: if they build it without lagging and freezing issues, it's a fine idea. I don't care too much about redundancy. I'm talking about quality.

    Of course they should fix the lag/frozen screen issue. But, you realize, this has been going on for years. I just searched the /r/teslamotors subreddit and picked information from owners or people who actually used the touchscreen.

    Understand that all these posts are from $70,000 to $120,000 cars--this was not from any Model 3, haha:

    Post #1:

    "2015 85D here.. been noticing the dash screen becomes very sluggish whenever using navigation (when the left side shows directions). The energy bar is jumpy and sometimes the scroll wheels on the steering wheel are slow to respond. Once I cancel navigation, things are usually resolved; but once or twice, I had to reset the screen to get things back right. Has anyone else noticed this?"

    "Join the club. Everyone will tell you to reboot; go ahead, it might seem to fix it for a few moments, but it will come back. The tegra3 chipset is not as powerful as it needs to be."

    "I've seen the front dash get sluggish before - it looks weird to see the power/regen lines lag. It's only happened to me like 2x in the last year, each time I just do screen reset and it works fine after that."

    Post #2:

    "The software on the center dashboard is buggy. Luckily it can be updated but one time it was on a reset loop, overheated, and slightly warped the silver plastic bezel under the screen" (after 7k on his Model S P85)

    Post #3:

    "This is my biggest gripe with the Tesla. All people I've test ridden with have all noticed the unresponsive screens."

    "It has been specifically noted the responsiveness has not been improved. (Also my primary gripe the the car.)"

    Post #4

    "I wish the touchscreen, and specifically the map app was snappier. I get that they probably bought a few thousand CPUs a few years ago, but I would expect a car that costs over $80K to feel smoother than an iPad from 2010."

    Post #5 (video of the screen resetting while driving)

    "I hate when this happens. It's unsafe and kills the AC. One of the problems with having a vehicle so dependent on software."

    Post #6:

    "I was recently at the store down here in Southern California, and I was sitting in the car and messing around with the touchscreen and found that the response time was a bit laggy. I'd scroll down and it would take a second or two for the screen to move with my finger."

    "Yeah, there is a reason that a better processor is high on the list for asks in Tesla."

    "I've given up on navigating with my car and just use my phone now the nav is so bad."

    "Nav is really, really bad. It uses Google Maps, but not their navigation."

    Post #7 (video at a show):

    "Uuuuugh that lag on the touch screen ! oh my..."

    "I don't think that had to do with loading time. That was just janky scrolling."

    "It's because of the Nvidia processor."

    Post #8:

    "The middle touch screen has the slowest hardware known to man... - I kid, I kid.. It is laggy as hell though.."

    "The thing I'm not kidding about is the atrocious Navigation software.. - Is it so hard to just use Google Maps Navigation?"

    "He's not kidding. Center console is underpowered."

    "...doing something graphically intensive like dragging the map around in full screen is not as fluid as a modern tablet."

    Post #9:

    "Shorter response/lag time on the touchscreen. It's good, but not perfect. I estimate at least 200ms latency."

    Post #10:

    "I have used both, and the touchscreen, especially the nav, is the most laggy piece of #### software I've ever seen in a car."

    Post #11:

    "..has there been any mention of the S getting upgraded processors so that the UI/browsing isn't as sluggish? Huge pet peeve of mine."

    "All that being said, the S is atrocious when it comes to the current responsiveness of the touch screen so something will have to be done. But we all know that already."

    "Tegra 3 is a good chipset. It was great in the ASUS tablets.... in 2010. But now you are asking it to perform complex navigation instructions, continually monitor GPS location in relation to chargers, monitor/control HVAC, process HD video from the rear camera, and then load album art from potentially 1000's of song media.

    ...

    At this point, dicking with the touchscreen becomes a distraction to your main focus of driving. It's no longer an aesthetic problem, it's a safety problem."

    "Reset helps in the extreme cases of locking up, but the lag is always there. It's definitely not buttery smooth like you'd expect a 100k car to be."

    "Yeah it's a bit annoying when it's slow, but you just reset it and it speeds up again."

    "I think the real problem is the software. Because Tesla is writing their own nav software (using Google's map data and Garmin displays) and their own media player they aren't as good at it as, for example, Waze or Google is. They aren't good at everything all of the time."

    --------------------------------------------------------------

    If I'm honest, I don't trust their touchscreen implementation. Now, imagine all these issues with the speedometer, cruise control/autopilot notifications, gear/drive indicator, electrical malfunction notices, etc. People, by 2018, will have an exceedingly high standard of what a touchscreen responds like. The now old iPhone 5 had touch latency under 80ms.

    I would trust Tesla, but this happened on the S for nearly all 3 years. New owners (look at the post dates) are still experiencing these issues. Tesla has never acknowledged these issues publicly.

    People said the same thing about a massive touch-screen in a $35,000 car. Musk surprises...

    The HUD is simpler. It will show critical information that isn't tied to whatever advanced system driving the main display.

    Plenty of cars have had HUDs. I've linked the 2012 Prius video maybe a dozen times now on this forum.

    Again, if it's laggy/freezes, it's crappy, too. If it's always fluid and responsive, fine.

    You guys know what's always fluid and responsive in new 2016 cars? The speedometer. The drive indicator. The cruise control light.
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  • Apr 5, 2016
    MP3Mike
    But weren't a lot of those complaints about the IP directly in front of the driver? It doesn't matter if there is one or two screens, Tesla just needs to make sure it works.
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  • Apr 5, 2016
    ikjadoon
    No, they're about the main 17" touchscreen. I don't even think the IP in front of the driver is touch-enabled.

    That's the issue: "make sure it works". This was a pretty crucial part: it's how you interact with the car besides the pedals and the wheel. It's been 3 years+ with only marginal improvements.

    And it was a $70k+ car. That doesn't bode well at all.
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  • Apr 5, 2016
    MP3Mike
    The first post you linked to is clearly about the IP:
    Post #1:

    "2015 85D here.. been noticing the dash screen becomes very sluggish whenever using navigation (when the left side shows directions). The energy bar is jumpy and sometimes the scroll wheels on the steering wheel are slow to respond. Once I cancel navigation, things are usually resolved; but once or twice, I had to reset the screen to get things back right. Has anyone else noticed this?"

    "I've seen the front dash get sluggish before - it looks weird to see the power/regen lines lag. It's only happened to me like 2x in the last year, each time I just do screen reset and it works fine after that."
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  • Apr 5, 2016
    yesup
    I disagree. I am almost certain that one large touch screen is cheaper than all the buttons, instrument cluster, climate control module, radio/media control module etc.

    I understand that, but that does not mean they have to put in a second screen or HUD.
    You can still drive the car when the screen is frozen, You can stop the car at a safe place if you wish and wait until the screen reboots.

    Elon is playing it safe for the Model 3, making sure all the parts are plentiful in supply and no few parts would hold up production like the Model X.

    But many people wearing polarized sunglasses won't be able to see it during the day.
    Yes, there is TI's DLP, but it is likely too expensive to use (no car has one yet).
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  • Apr 5, 2016
    RyDad1
    That's what a HUD is for :)
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  • Apr 5, 2016
    roblab
    And then, what if the MAIN computer fails? While driving on a curvy road? And the throttle sticks on full power? And the power steering goes out? And the battery ignites? (Make sure to cite all comments on battery replacement, fires, switch problems.) And then the center screen goes blank?

    AAaaaaauugh!!! We're all gonna die!

    Love all the humor, speculation, death wish, deal breaker conjecturing that goes on. All you people, ALL of you, will get a chance to drive Reveal v. 2. That only gives for about another 8 months to a year to prophesy and imagine "what could possibly go wrong that I must post so those idiots at Tesla can fix it".

    And all of you that decide that you'd rather be driving a crushable econobox gas sucking pollution machine, "Thank you! Please step out of line. There are several hundred thousand behind you."
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  • Apr 5, 2016
    yesup
    But since Tesla has decided not to use a portrait screen in the centre console, there is no need for a HUD, and I bet that we won't see one.
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  • Apr 5, 2016
    SageBrush
    We own a Prius (v)agon too. Due to this thread I paid attention the last time I was in the car and noted that it only has a centralized display.

    The point ? I had forgotten.
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  • Apr 5, 2016
    favo
    Continental has an augmented reality HUD system in development. It apparently uses the TI digital micromirror device (DMD) . The downside is it takes up about 11 liters for the guts inside the dash.

    [?IMG]
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  • Apr 5, 2016
    yesup
    I think all car manufacturers have these types of technology in development or experiment.
    But we won't see this in Model 3.

    Maybe they will be introduced in the S or X some time in the future. But these augmented reality HUDs are more of a driver's aid. With the emphasis on autonomous driving, I am not sure if it is compatible with Tesla's vision of future cars.
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  • Apr 5, 2016
    favo
    Model 3 may not get a HUD, but if not, I don't think it will be because it's not a driver's car. Autonomous driving will face a lot of regulatory hurdles, regardless of technical progress, that will slow its adoption down. Also, as long as Autopilot is Level 3, beta, and requires the driver to intervene in some cases, the feedback to the driver will be crucial. These sorts of AR-HUD's look like a great way to let the driver know what the system is doing--which cars are being tracked, which road markings are relevant, etc.
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  • Apr 5, 2016
    trils0n
    Even if the screen crashes or lags, it won't effect the car. One of the first things I tried with the Model S was to reboot the screens while driving. Guess what? Everything keeps working. No big deal. Music and Nav will stop, but that is hardly safety critical. Every essential driving system in the S is rock solid, and works without the screens. The 17inch screen may occasionally lag when you open the controls window, but that isn't really a big deal. Never had any lag on the instrument cluster in the 3 years I've had my car.

    A screen may be a new way to to display information, but all of the gear that feeds info to the screen is basically the same in all cars, whether it gets displayed on a screen or a dial. Nothing to worry about. Can't wait to see what they come up with for the next part of the reveal.
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  • Apr 5, 2016
    Tesloid
    All of Model S lag issues are due to a 6 year old Tegra SoC being burdened by an increasing list of real-time tasks with each new software update. Try running the new Android Marshmallow on a tablet from 2010 and tell me how that goes. Tesla is not going to do a recall to replace the hardware on tens of thousands of screens just to fix an issue that bothers a minority of users, needing a system reboot only a handful of times a year.

    This in no way can predict issues with Model 3 screens, unless you are assuming Tesla is going to use the same old Tegra SoC again. Well, obviously they won't. Intel has come a long way over the past 2 years, with their mobile SoC technology. We have Intel 14nm Skylake-U SoC now that operates at the same power rating as the old Tegra 3, at a lower TDP, and is 10 times faster in computations. I'll guarantee you that the Model 3 (and refreshed Model S/X) will have a new SoC that's going to be 10 times more powerful, or even more.
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  • Apr 5, 2016
    Tesloid
    Lack of a conventional instrument cluster behind the steering wheel will free up all that in-dash space to easily accommodate an eleven liter system. Ease of manufacture isn't an issue either, since conventional clusters aren't exactly any easier to install compared to a projection system. I think it all comes down to the economics of having that system in a car that starts at $35K.
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  • Apr 6, 2016
    yesup
    It is an issue, and that's the precise reason why they got rid of the conventional clusters!
    So I can't see why they would put in an equally complicated system (augmented reality HUD) to slow down the manufacturing.
    And it is too expensive for Model 3.
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  • Apr 6, 2016
    Tesloid
    Neither of us know WHY Tesla ditched the instrument panel. We are just making assumptions. But, I do know the dash assembly costs for a HUD will be very similar to that of an IPC, from my work experience as an engineer in the auto industry.

    As far as cost of the AR-HUD system itself goes, I do concede that even the economics of scale might not be able to make it cheap enough for the Model 3. I can definitely see it in the S/X, though.
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  • Apr 6, 2016
    jkk_
    If I haven't missed anything, discussion so far has been circling around the model 3. But what if they refresh the whole fleet at the same time and gain better scales of volume that way? Something like reveal 2 shows some sort of hud / separate see-through glass or something like that for all models?

    Of course, they might want to keep separation between models S and X to model 3.
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  • Apr 6, 2016
    Scifi_tv_fan
    Actually it may be economically possible to have it cheap enough for the model 3 if they order enough of the same HUD model from a manufacturer and implement it into all of their models (3 and future S X's). The higher amount of bulk parts you order, then you should be able to get a lower price per part. I will agree that's usually the general rule but that doesn't always apply to everything so I could be wrong but I'm just saying that there's a possibility of that.
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  • Apr 6, 2016
    Olle
    upload_2016-4-6_12-46-55.png
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  • Apr 6, 2016
    Olle
    lack of indicator, wiper and gear sticks could compensate for cost of touch screen?
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  • Apr 6, 2016
    diamond.g
    I dunno, my iPhone is able to keep the compass pretty legible while tilting it pretty quickly.
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  • Apr 6, 2016
    evp
    Another vote for HUD. It would enable a lot more feedback about what the autopilot is thinking, as it does in the many airplanes that are using HUD technology today.
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  • Apr 6, 2016
    ummgood
    A lot of Citroen cars have the center of the wheel stay fixed when turning. I am guessing it isn't that hard to do if you want to put a screen directly on the wheel. I remember the first time I rode in one in Europe it wigged my brain out a little.

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  • Apr 6, 2016
    ZachF
    [?IMG]
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  • Apr 6, 2016
    Az_Rael
    Ironically, you just made the argument as to why continuous software updates can be a BAD thing vs a good thing. Whatever chip is installed in the Model 3 will be top o' the line for 2017. But that same chip will be rather outdated and possibly overtaxed for that same Model 3 5 years later depending on how many software updates and features they add over the cars lifetime.

    Maybe they will make the CPUs upgradeable? So when your Model 3 screen starts getting laggy due to all the software updates you can take it in and get it upgraded to the latest one?
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  • Apr 6, 2016
    omarsultan
    There is a difference between designing and building something from scratch (i.e. falcon wing doors) and buying an off the shelf component that someone else has built/tested/validated and integrating it into your design--much less execution risk. This would be similar to the approach Tesla takes with the AP camera which they source from MobilEye.
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  • Apr 6, 2016
    yesup
    Very true, only Elon and his team know the real reason.

    I personally believe they are using a single screen to replace everything.
    If they thought a second display is needed, they would have retained the instrument panel.
    HUD cannot be seen with polarized sunglasses (and a lot of drivers wear them), so unless you use the expensive DLP HUDs, it is really not a good substitute for instrument panel.
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  • Apr 6, 2016
    Olle
    Exactly! Pretty nice job by Citroen
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  • Apr 6, 2016
    jjkroll
    I've got it. They are going to put a phone cradle in the steering wheel, a la "Faraway Future". Then your phone will display the gauges.

    In case sarcasm goes over any heads.. This is a joke and I hope Tesla is listening.
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  • Apr 6, 2016
    yesup
    It just does not make sense to put a display on the steering wheel. If they thought they need an extra display, they would have retained the instrument panel - easier to make (they already have the parts and no need for any extra development), and functionally much better than on the steering wheel. Steering wheel display is too close to the driver - I may need reading glass to see it :) . There is also too much eye travel and refocusing as compared with a normal instrument panel.
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  • Apr 6, 2016
    Olle
    Unless it means that they can get rid of the stalks and save money that way. Regarding the focus question: if you manly use the screen as buttons it may be ok. Are you able to see the buttons on the Model S steering wheel spokes or are they too close? More crucial info could be displayed on the central screen, no?
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  • Apr 6, 2016
    ikjadoon
    Good point. But the other 10 posts were about the main 17" screen.

    It's not just the hardware screen: now they have to hire developers to code that software, provide it updates (while working with an ancient SoC like in the Model S), make sure it's completely secure because it connects to the internet, etc. Think about the whole cost, mate.

    "You can still drive the car when the screen is frozen; You can stop the car at a safe place if you wish and wait until the screen" = lol, that's what we've come to? That's the response you have? At least MP3Mike understands: Tesla needs to fix it.

    Nobody worry: if you can't see your speedometer in your $35,000 electric car, just park it. The electric car revolution is here! :rolleyes:

    I hope Elon doesn't have the same tolerance for mistakes as you do.

    Yeah, the DLP stuff looks expensive and now you have to worry about bulbs dying out. No idea what the MTBF is, though. I'm clinging to my pipe dream of transparent OLEDs in the windshield: LG is sourcing the main display, so maybe they'll contribute here, too.

    But, this is all just speculation: how else, besides OLED/HUD technology, will "part 2" take it to the next level and how will the cockpit resemble a spaceship?


    Hey, man, don't you tell us what to do with our free time! I'll speculate and crit-i-cize whoever I want. That touchscreen, though, at 0:48:



    Of course it doesn't affect the car. That would be recall-worthy. It's all about experience, though: do you trust a speedometer after looking at that video above? Sure, it's the atrocious browser that's the example, but it's iffy nonetheless, especially on a $70,000 car.

    Again, of course it all works without the screen and of course there is no lag on the instrument cluster: you have second screen that holds all the vital information. But, from what we know about the 3, that's not true.

    What...Tesla had a $70,000 budget with the Model S. There is no excuse. The S is amazing and by far the best car in its class. But, that was a major slip-up. And, those buyers were willing to overlook a slip-up like that, just how they smoothed over the 2 cup-holders in a 7-seat car. They're forgiving. I don't think the mass-market is as forgiving.

    They hardly upgraded it over the years, but they could've, right? They iterate all the time, right? They went with the Tegra 4, which, sadly, still has issues.

    The Model X sounds better, but there seem to plenty of quality control issues and we are not far along in its product cycle, either. Not everyone cares about a responsive touchscreen, though.

    But ....that was on their $70,000 car! They should've went overboard, picking a much stronger SoC package. But, they didn't...on their $70,000 car.

    Now, we've got all kinds of people claiming, "Oh, yeah, they messed up a bit on their $70,000 on the primary user interaction system. But, don't worry, if it happens on your $70k car, just pull over and reboot the screen. You'll lose music and nav, but don't worry. Now, Tesla's putting together their $35,000 car!"

    If Tesla once ever acknowledged the Model S issues, I'd be a happy camper and trust Elon again. But, they haven't, so I'm skeptical.
    �
  • Apr 6, 2016
    ecarfan
    @ikjadoon, Tesla has acknoweldged that the Model S isn't perfect. In fact Elon has stated repeatedly in interviews that while he is proud of the S, when he looks at it all he can see are its flaws.

    You are being irrationally hypercritical of a car that has increased sales by 45% year over year (Q1 2015 to Q1 2016). A car that no one outside of Tesla believed could be created and manufactured. A car that no one imagined could outperform and outsell the top of the line ICE cars being built by companies that had been in business for a over century.

    Tesla's achievements in the past few years speak for themselves. Your derision speaks for, well, just you I think.
    �
  • Apr 6, 2016
    hoang51
    That would not be a good idea especially when air bag deploys (in certain situation(s) with a conventional steering wheel) and that phone flies into one's face... Ultra fail.
    �
  • Apr 6, 2016
    MP3Mike
    I could be wrong but I thought that currently the IP in the Model S gets all of it's data from MCU (touch screen computer) over a network connection, so they already have all of the coding done for the main screen to be able to process the information in "realtime" and be secure from the Internet. And just because the browser is slow and laggy doesn't mean that the speedometer/information overlay would be, even if it is on top of the browser.

    Also, there is no reason that the code needs to be shared between the S/X and the 3. They may very well fork a significant portion of the code, for example the UI at a minimum.
    �
  • Apr 6, 2016
    arjay
    Is no one concerned about the split second "eyes off the road" to check speed and remaining range info? Seems to me it would only cost "$1.40" to slave those two or three data points directly in front of the driver. Yes it is redundant, but way cheaper than law suits and potential of lost sales due to driver alienation. EM said no "Weirdmobile" so why not phase-in the pure flight deck over time? BTW, I have no problem with 15" landscape or a simple serene interior architecture as long as it is comfortable, lush, killer sound system, and no flashing lights.
    �
  • Apr 6, 2016
    trils0n
    Yes I absolutely trust my speedometer after seeing that video. I'm not sure what a video of a laggy web browser on the 17 inch screen has to do with a totally different screen running on a different processor. As I said earlier, in 3 years and nearly 50k miles my speedometer has never lagged. The 17inch screen is worlds better than any other companies infotainment screen, even with it's quirky slow web browser.
    �
  • Apr 6, 2016
    yesup
    What "$1.40" solution are you referring to? Bringing back the instrument panel or HUDs?

    Actually, the "eyes off the road" time is shorter using the left upper edge of the landscape screen than your traditional speedometer.
    �
  • Apr 6, 2016
    yesup
    I don't share your worry about speedometer failing, which should a rare occurrence.
    We haven't even seen the production Model 3 yet, why speculate about the potential failure of one of its component?
    The car should still be completely driveable in the rare situation when the screen freezes.

    You are absolutely welcome to form your own opinion. I simply don't share your skepticism.
    �
  • Apr 7, 2016
    MattUK
    To me, this was my main concern from the launch. I think the display on the steering wheel is the best solution. I don't care if the display turns as the wheel turns, I won't be looking at it as I turn a corner. It's the solution they've come to in Formula One (though wheel is higher in driver's vision and no windscreen for HUD) and it looks pretty clear to me, so long as you ignore all the rest of the buttons!

    http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/03/08/2670C07500000578-2984561-image-a-33_1425821048646.jpg

    Sorry for the Daily Mail link (it's the paper Donald Trump would write for if he were a UK journalist).

    Actually, it's probably not my main concern. I want the handling to be good so it feels sporty on twisty roads. Also interested in the size of the boot/froot (trunk/frunk). Not really bothered about autopilot, though would be nice to relax on the motorway (highway) and avoid pedestrians stepping off the pavement (sidewalk) with autobraking. Will be nice not to have to buy expensive UK petrol (gas) or get my hands dirty under the bonnet (hood). I've run out.

    Anyhow, most people here (outside of London) have never heard of Tesla, so it needs to be a better version of a normal car to catch on, rather than a novelty. Very few would buy a car with a joystick instead of a steering wheel. Many would laugh at a car that had a joystick instead of a steering wheel.
    �
  • Apr 7, 2016
    Siciliano
    I personally don't like HUDs. What's the sense of completely getting rid of an instrument cluster to enhance the driver's view, and then cluttering that view with information floating around everywhere within your view??

    Unless, they plan to project everything very low on the windshield, so it would almost be like looking at a traditional instrument cluster, only projected, of course. That would make more sense considering they completely flattened out the area where the instrument cluster would be...HUD vs LED or OLED instrument panel would be far cheaper.

    So in the end, I guess I wouldn't mind a HUD...but only if they have it projected very low on the windshield.
    �
  • Apr 7, 2016
    scaesare
    So for the "HUD vs. steering wheel display" discussion, has anybody considered focal distance?

    Earlier, somebody pointed out that the distance a persons eyeballs had to shift from going to the road to the upper-left corner of a center display could be actually less than when glancing at a traditional dash instrument cluster location.

    The other aspect is the time it takes eyes to focus: The closer the object, the longer the time for your eyeball to refocus. This is not a linear difference: The time it takes to change focus for the 30' difference from 20' to 50' (nearing the infinity point) is likely less than the time takes to refocus from the 19' difference between the traffic in front of you(@20') to your steering wheel (@1').

    This is one of the advantages of a HUD. It can make the display appear to float out in the road in front of you such that you really don't have to either glance away from the road, or refocus your eyballs a significant difference.

    The difference in focal distance between dash and steering wheel hub may not seem like much, but at the shallow end of the scale it can be significant.
    �
  • Apr 7, 2016
    wcalvin
    The displayed dash looks suitable for a readerboard that scrolls like a stock ticker.
    �
  • Apr 7, 2016
    MattUK
    Ok, that focal distance argument is pretty decent, scaesare. Currently flicking between my laptop and TV and, yeah, it's not seamless.
    �
  • Apr 7, 2016
    brianman
    Imagine this + 11 years + Tesla UI finesse.

    https://i.ytimg.com/vi/H_wMyUEeIzQ/hqdefault.jpg
    [?IMG]
    �
  • Apr 7, 2016
    brianman
    Sometime to think about...

    Much like 3D "plays games" with red/blue lenses (at least the old versions), I suspect focal distance can be gamed by making the HUD UI slightly out of focus.
    �
  • Apr 7, 2016
    arjay
    The hopeful "$1.40" reference was to implement a couple of simple LED readouts like speed, and range for instant visual access. An HUD would be lovely, but not for $1.40. I have not been in the car in order to see/feel how the actual reading of information would be, maybe it is not a problem...we'll see.
    �
  • Apr 7, 2016
    Discoducky
    Yep and you can do some smart things like change the color of the object as it moves faster or is on a collision course. The AI might even be good enough to know if the object is looking away and unaware. Face detection could be useful as the AI could be more aware of targets as they move their glare.
    �
  • Apr 8, 2016
    Autolycus
    Umm... no. An image that is projected out of focus will always be out of focus.
    �
  • Apr 8, 2016
    GoTslaGo
    Here's a crazy thought.

    The actual physical dimensions of a 15" screen in landscape mode (based on Wikipedia) is 33cm wide X 21 cm high.

    A 12" screen in portrait mode is 16cm wide X 26 cm high.

    How about two 12" screens side by side in portrait modes? Total dimensions: 32 cm wide X 26 cm high.

    The driver side (or both) screens could be mounted on a limited swivel mount. This will allow the screens to be swiveled to the driver or passenger (or other side driver for RHD vehicles).

    This would help the driver take a better look at the instrument display which can be angled for the driver comfort. The displays would be linked to allow the displays to be swapped etc. Obviously some fixed features will be on both or just the driver display.
    �
  • Apr 12, 2016
    tdelta1000
    E. Musk and TM has hired someone from the Porsche E-Mission project for the interior. Now we wait and see....
    �
  • Apr 12, 2016
    voip-ninja
    Well, the e-mission renderings all had a nice driver oriented cockpit with an actual dash, so it will be interesting to see what they come up with. I really can't get on board with the idea of driving around looking at a piece of plastic in front of my face.
    �
  • Apr 12, 2016
    Topher
    I like the solution that the Prius has. It is projected from below, and reflected back. This gives a long focal distance just below the window. The display looks like it is coming from under the wipers. Older eyes appreciate not having to change focus that far from road to speedometer.

    Thank you kindly.
    �
  • Apr 12, 2016
    EcoHeliGuy
    What car out there doesn't have that now?
    �
  • Apr 12, 2016
    voip-ninja
    I don't know if you're trying to be funny or serious, but my current car and last four cars were all very well instrumented. Some of them had HUDs. At a minimum I expect to have my speed, vehicle status (charge level for an EV, health of onboard systems), nav information (next turn, autopilot status) in my line of sight. My wife had a Mini with the instruments off to the right and it was really really irritating and annoying to have to glance over there all the time to get information.

    We'll see what the final implementation is, but currently I'm not impressed with the idea of a giant iPad stuck in the middle of the console being the sole source of information.

    I understand that for many this is not a big deal, but it's a big deal to me and probably a lot of other people as well.

    Tesla can't just say that their system is superior or like a "starship" they actually have to demonstrate that people who are interested in driving cars and enjoying the driving experience, who need lots of real time feedback, will prefer their new way of doing things.
    �
  • Apr 12, 2016
    EcoHeliGuy
    I also had a Mini Cooper and speed was presented in digital info on the gauge above the wheel as well as the dial in the center of the dash. Not sure how one could hate glancing so far over there, when they could glance further from the road to the location above the wheel.
    �
  • Apr 12, 2016
    voip-ninja
    Whatever you say, only been driving for about 30 years now and simply relaying my experience. It is much easier/faster for me to glance down which takes something like 1/10 of a second compared to glancing over to the right which takes my focus further off the road. Best integration experience by far was last BMW which had a pretty good HUD implementation. No reason to ever take eyes from road for essentials.

    To each their own.
    �
  • Apr 12, 2016
    yesup
    Don't use your mini experience to judge Model 3. The left upper corner of the big screen should be able to place the read out much closer to your line of sight than mini's. The eye travel from the road to the left upper corner of the screen should actually be less than the traditional speedometer. And HUD does not always work, I can't see my BMW's HUD with my polarized sunglasses during the day.

    [?IMG]
    �
  • Apr 12, 2016
    arjay
    Judging from an interior shot from the reveal, I'd estimate the speed readout to be about 5" further to the right of the steering wheel edge. I too am concerned about any extra distance/distraction from the road in front.
    �
  • Apr 12, 2016
    yesup
    Don't think so.
    5"? - that's almost to the middle of the screen!
    I did my estimation above based on this photo. The screen should align right at the R edge of the steering wheel.
    Even if it is a bit further to the right and down, the eye travel should STILL be shorter distance than to the traditional speedometer.


    [?IMG]
    �
  • Apr 12, 2016
    arjay
    Don't think the screen is even with the steering wheel and the readout is about 2' in from the left edge of the screen. However you may be right what with parallax issues effecting the dimensions. The proof will be in actually sitting in the car in 3D.
    �
  • Apr 15, 2016
    ikjadoon
  • Apr 15, 2016
    arjay
    This is getting exciting...when is the 2nd reveal gonna happen?
    �
  • Apr 15, 2016
    ecarfan
    No one outside of Tesla knows, and even Tesla likely hasn't firmed up the date yet.

    My guess is fall of 2018.
    �
  • Apr 15, 2016
    yesup
    You really meant fall of 2017..... no?
    �
  • Apr 15, 2016
    cpa
    �
  • Apr 15, 2016
    cpa
    That surely looks like a Morris Minor! I owned a '59 woody from '72 - '75.
    �
  • Apr 15, 2016
    ecarfan
    I did, my mistake.
    �
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