Oct 13, 2011
gg_got_a_tesla I agree. For a car the size of the Model S, it's practically a necessity. I've 'abused' my TL's rear often enough to know better!�
Oct 13, 2011
ljbad4life ventilated seats can be made very energy saving if done right. It only needs to be two extra ducts connected to the front seats. A small fan in the seats to blow what ever temp out that the hvac is set to. Some manufacturers do this (like Lincoln). I know there will be a weight gain, but the pay off is that poeple will use the hvac less because the air comes directly in contact with their skin vs changing the air temp.
The other way that ventilated seats are made is just like tesla said and that requires extra hvac systems.
The sport seats or the seats in general could have adjustable side bolsters like the infiniti G sedans have so each individual can set how much "hugging" of the seat they need.
I'm not to thrilled about the stalk shifter, but I'm not too bothered by it either. The one thing I love about the roadster is the push button gear selector.�
Oct 13, 2011
Trnsl8r First off, thanks GG for going through the trouble and for reporting back so extensively.
Sounds reasonable. I'll quit my harping on this.
That's too bad, kind of loses its electric silence coolness, but safety first I guess. I'm sure there is a good way to do this.
I think it all sounds great. Interior is something that they can (and likely will) be working on up until the last minute before production.�
Oct 13, 2011
Doug_G I won't buy another car without a rear-view camera. I had to add one to my Roadster 2.0, and that involved machining a custom camera mount for it. I expect the Model S to include this. Preferably with virtual guide lines that turn with the steering wheel. My Infiniti G37 does that and it's really nice. You can instantly see if you're going to clear things (assuming level pavement of course).
As a general comment, I think the electronics and touchscreen on the G37 are beautifully done. If Model S is going to be state-of-the art, they will have to outdo Infiniti. (Oh, and it has adaptive cruise...)�
Oct 13, 2011
ckessel Even in non-sport, cornering will be good and many drivers like myself would want better lateral seat support.�
Oct 13, 2011
strider Hmm. I worry the speaker for this will fail soon after delivery.�
Oct 13, 2011
qwk What speaker? lol�
Oct 13, 2011
doug Don't confuse EV noise generators as having much to do with actual safety.
-
Given that big screen you'd think they'd have the rear view camera integrated in the design of the car (like it is in the Leaf).�
Oct 13, 2011
TEG Just like how Nissan didn't have any noisemaker on their demo test drive roadshow LEAFs, it doesn't appear that Tesla will preview their noisemaker on the betas.
I guess we will find out what sound they picked when cars start getting to customers... ( Or maybe in beta2 ? )�
Oct 13, 2011
WhiteKnight Thank you GG for doing this!
""Noise generator" will automatically be activated (mandated by federal law starting next year apparently) at low speeds."
Will this be user selectable (like a ringtone)? Because I want mine to sound like the Jetson's car!�
Oct 13, 2011
AnOutsider Thanks gg for taking the time to ask, and report back. I'm actually really disappointed in a lot of those decisions, but some, I can live with.
* Disappointed that it sounds like the dash won't see much change. I think the "beta feedback" thread should be proof enough that many did not like it. If not, they can also see the comments on the interior pictures posted to their FB page.
* Rear-view should be standard. Especially since the screen is already there and there was talk of requiring them by 2014.
* Noise Generator. *sigh*. I suspect there will be a healthy hacker/modder community once this car launches. As some of us discussed at the event, I'm going to have the "Imperial March" as my tone (I think Cinergi said he'd have Vader's breathing :tongue
* As others stated: if we get the sport option, we expect sport seats. I can live without adjustable headrests.
* I'm not fussed over it, but if regen configuration is available in the car, then I'm sure once people get to tinkering in the system, someone will bring the option back.
* REALLY sad about the stalk shifter.I keep picturing old station wagons :crying:
* Ventilated seats would be cool, but I suspect they'll make it to future builds and may be able to be retrofitted given some ingenuity and elbow grease.
Thanks again for getting behind the lines GG�
Oct 13, 2011
William13 The noise generators are not actually required until either 2013 or 2014. They all need to make the same noise and are not allowed to be user adjustable. The government asked for comments to the rules but said these details were not negotiable. I was hoping that Tesla would wait to implement until the noise was actually mandated rather than with the first ones.
I hope the seats are comfortable. I would hate to customize them.�
Oct 13, 2011
tdelta1000 G... thanks for going the extra mile. I understand why the rear camera may come as an option but its cheap enough to make it a standard feature. I found this picture on the web for a camera that is less than $30.00.
This means that Tesla has already sourced the part from Mercedes Benz USA or its part supplier.
If TM is not sure of which direction to go with the seating then I say go with what was introduced in the Model S concept. I saw very little complaints on those seats.
This link may explain why TM is not going with Front adjustable headrests. iihs.org/ratings/head_restraints/head_restraint_info�
Oct 13, 2011
PopSmith First I'd like to say a big "Thank you" to GG for providing all this info!
This may sound weird but I'd like to see a front-view camera as well (at least as an option) with a good view of the passenger side (sorry, I know that is a bit subjective). The lack of adaptive cruise control isn't a deal breaker but I'll be very sad if it isn't an option. Adaptive cruise control is an option on the BMW 5-series and 7-series vehicles and both the Audi A6 and A7.
That's interesting...I hope Tesla re-considers putting it in the first year of Model S then.�
Oct 13, 2011
tdelta1000 PopSmith, you are right. It should not be a deal breaker because TM may not have perfected this tech for the "S". Maybe later.�
Oct 13, 2011
ckessel So, does that mean I could legally cut the wires for it since my Model S will be a 2012?�
Oct 13, 2011
Mycroft I would imagine that ACC is quite intricate and not easy to install in a first gen vehicle. We can hold out hope that it's something they can install/upgrade down the road.�
Oct 13, 2011
NigelM Noise generators must the dumbest idea anyone ever came up with:
1) Blind people use crossings.
2) Pedestrian crossings around here beep away, how's the car generator going to sound different? (A human voice shouting "Watch Out!"....?)
3) Our main street is 15mph, so 99% of the ICE cars are almost silent. Is my Model S going to be louder than the ICE's??
4) We actually have a local ordnance where your car can get impounded if you're playing in-car music that can be heard 25 feet away. (Yes, that's right 25'. It's been challenged in State court right now but nevertheless...) How far away does the "noise generator" have to be heard?
5) Back to Main Street, what's our peaceful, idyllic downtown area going to sound like in a few years when it's populated with slow moving EV's?
6) How slow is "slow speed"? In my driveway? When the car is stationary but drive is engaged. At every stop sign or junction?
7) Is it gonna "beep" or make whatever noise at the drive-thru, the bank window, toll booths?
8) Is the assumption that drivers won't stop for pedestrians in slow speed areas?
9) Is it going to generate noise every time I'm parking?
10) How about those areas populated with speed humps that force everyone to drive slow? Shopping malls, residential areas, plenty of gated communities here in Florida.
11) How about in slow moving traffic? In jams?
12) We have 15mph speeds zones around schools. Are all the EV's going to start "beeping" there?
ICE's are VERY quiet when moving at slow speed, in many areas almost silent. To anyone with a half ounce of common sense it should be almost unimaginable that "noise generators" would be mandated to make EV's louder than ICE's!
Oh man, I think I could write a whole thread on how dumb this is....�
Oct 13, 2011
Arnold Panz Lucky for you, your fellow TMC members have taken care of this for you!
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/1082-Auto-minimum-sound-level
This is a classic case of a solution in search of a problem. To my knowledge, there have never been any fatalities because a blind person didn't hear an EV car and got run over, yet the US government, with all of its problems, took on this "important" issue in a bipartisan way to ruin the nice quiet ride of all EVs.�
Oct 14, 2011
WhiteKnight This sounds horrible! I sure hope that a bureaucrat in D.C. is not picking the noise for all EV cars in the United States! What if he/she picks the back up noise for a garbage truck? This bureaucrat could single-handedly kill the EV industry if the sound all EVs have to emit is annoying enough.�
Oct 14, 2011
goyogi The NHTSA came up with the noise generator idea. Hmmm...National HIGHWAY traffic safety administration. They have no jurisdiction on local roads. That's up to the city's and counties. I can't remember the last time I saw hapless pedestrians on the highway that might be hit by low speed driving.�
Oct 14, 2011
Doug_G Typically the government mandates requirements but does not dictate how those requirements have to be met. So no, the automobile manufacturers will decide on their sounds.�
Oct 14, 2011
efusco And to that end, so far, the sounds have not been too terrible. The implemented sound on the new Prius is quite reasonable, it's distinctive enought to not be confused for other ambient sounds (like the beeping of a crossing signal), loud enough to be heard by someone in the immediate vicinity of the front or side of the car, but not obnoxious or attention drawing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkFj4pe_ANY&feature=player_embedded�
Oct 14, 2011
bonnie Ahhhh yes. The 'what were they thinking??' video demonstrating how 1) a pedestrian totally ignores the proximity noise, and 2) the driver totally ignores the pedestrian and just keeps going.�
Oct 14, 2011
Mycroft Gad I hope Tesla comes up with a better sound than that. It sounded like banshees rubbing up against a blackboard.�
Oct 14, 2011
rabar10 What were we talking about? Oh yeah, that wealth-of-info post that gg_wants_a_tesla made up-thread. Thanks again!
(All the re-hashed noise generator discussion should get moved to its existing thread: Auto minimum sound level)
Now back on topic:
I note the 'manual way to close the panoramic roof' entry got changed to 'no automatic way to close the pano roof except via touchscreen'...�
Oct 14, 2011
gg_got_a_tesla Good spottingYes, that was after an offline clarification from the T employee who also suggested that it is still unknown if regen "may be" made configurable (if it is, he did confirm that it'd be via the touchscreen alone - where it's available to T engineers - rather than with a dedicated steering wheel stalk).
�
Oct 14, 2011
Mycroft I did wonder how they could possibly make the roof manually closable without breaking the mechanism. Guess not.
Also noticed that possible chrome and wood grain options was changed to "hopefully will include more options".�
Oct 14, 2011
vfx Thanks G. Good work.
"- Rear-view camera would be there (possibly as an option); will forward request to make the display available both on the touchscreen as well as the driver's LCD screen."
Agree with TEG here. With two screens, not having a camera is ridiculous.
"- "Noise generator" will automatically be activated (mandated by federal law starting next year apparently) at low speeds."
I hope there would be a way to disable it.
"- Faux leather and cloth (for vegans or otherwise) seat options will be made available in all likelihood."
They got caught off-guard on the roadster. Tesla was making a sportscar. Many "greenies" wanted non leather options. I would not think that would make that mistake again on a lower cost car.
"- ...Seats are still being finalized."
Elon seemed to obsess about the Roadster seats. The bucket-sports option sound like a good idea.
"- Will forward concerns about the charge port door design with a view to making it more organic looking."
While pictures show the port as a bland red triangle, I would believe the final exterior surface would be a perfect match to the rest of the taillight red prismatic plastic.
"- Regen WILL NOT be configurable as the Model S is heavier than the Roadster and hence, the default setting - at the maximum possible - will already reach the max regen-driven charge rate for the battery pack. This max regen will still not be felt in the Model S as much as in the Roadster. So, no adjustable regen steering wheel stalk."
This half misses the point. Max can equal to the battery pack's limit (even if it is (sadly) not extreme) , but the other end has to be addressed as well. Having the option to coast is critical to hypermiling. If batteries are low you don't want regen. You want to coast home.
"--- If there's a chance that regen may be made configurable, it'll be via the touchscreen (it apparently is available there already, when the car is placed in "developer mode" by Tesla engineers)."
Adjustable regen is a drivers tool that is a great advantage and unique to electric vehicles, Tesla should more fully consider the availability of adjusting regen on the fly. Very disappointing for not even thinking that way. Five settings from "coast" to "max" would be OK but a fully adjustble would be better.
*****
What about the creep interrupting the smooth breaking in the Roadster issue?�
Oct 14, 2011
gg_got_a_tesla If I understood you right, yes, we did discuss this (sort of); was told that, unlike in the Roadster (where one could practically do one-pedal driving given the aggressive regen and no-creep?!), the Model S will feel 'more mainstream' (my words). For instance, during the beta rides at the factory, to slow down from the 70+ mph that the drivers hit on the straight stretch, they couldn't rely on the more-subtle regen alone and were using the hydraulic brakes heavily.�
Oct 14, 2011
TEG I wish they would include some sort of "power bleedoff" device (big resistor with heatsinks?) so that regen could work in all cases where you want it:
#1: When battery pack is already very full.
#2: When battery pack is very cold. (Another case where Roadster may cut out regen.)
#3: When you want more regen than the battery can accept (so you continue to keep the friction brakes from being worn.)
Also, if you are needing cabin heat, they could tap into that "excess regen heat bleedoff" so recapture some of that energy.
I know it seems like a lot to ask, but...�
Oct 14, 2011
SByer Ok, like those lame DRLs, does anybody really expect that the stoopid (monkey) noise generator won't be on a separate fuse circuit? If I was a reservation holder, I'd ask.�
Oct 14, 2011
goyogi Here's a suggestion Tesla...when I lock the car with the key fob automatically roll up the windows. Then if I hit the button a second time crack the windows. I installed an aftermarket Clifford alarm 15 years ago and it had this feature. It was one of my favorite things.�
Oct 14, 2011
Mycroft goyogi, one of the things Elon pointed out in the event was that there was a feature to maintain the internal temp while you were away. My 5 year old Mercedes has that feature, so I think a crack the windows function will be low on the priority list.�
Oct 14, 2011
Doug_G A Nissan/Infiniti feature to be avoided: hold down the fob lock button to roll down the windows. Stupid, stupid, stupid. Has no one at Nissan ever sat on their fob button by accident?!?�
Oct 15, 2011
AnOutsider I haven't. I actually like this feature. Approach your car in a hit parking lot, get it ready for you (though if the S conditions the cabin, no need). Another time it's been helpful is closing my windows to incoming rain without going outside.�
Oct 15, 2011
Doug_G On Nissan/Infiniti you can't remotely close the windows. So you're sitting at your desk and something in your pocket pushes the button, and outside in the parking lot all the windows open. I've had it happen. Someone could have reached in and stolen something. I only noticed when I heard a roll of thunder and looked out the window... it would have been soaked if I hadn't looked out just then. Of course I had to run out there to fix it.�
Oct 15, 2011
AnOutsider ah, then that indeed sucks.�
Oct 16, 2011
woof One of the best features of the RL is the "knob" that did all the data entry. It moves up/down/left/right (like a joystick), and rotates clockwise and counter clockwise with a lovely weighted detent 'click' feel, and one can push it in as well. The screen is not a touch screen, all input is done via the knob. With your right arm on the arm rest, your wrist settles gently on the shifter, leaving your fingers perfectly positioned to twiddle the knob. It is a WAY better input system than any touch screen, as your arm is fully supported and always in the same place. Text input was done with the alpha bet curved in a semi-circle, and turning the knob highlights the next letter, and pushing in on the knob selects it. One can easily count 'clicks' of of the knob to know what letter is being selected without looking (it also speaks it, but way too slowly to be of use).
The Acura nav is a close cousin to the Honda nav (naturally), but the Honda's use a touch screen. It is so much easier to use the same system in the Acura because of the knob, and the arm/wrist position is much more comfortable, as it isn't up in the air supported by nothing as it is with the Honda touch screens.
My fear on the Model S is with all that real estate, arm fatigue will be an issue (it's an issue for me on the 9 inch Honda screens entering an address). I really hope there is some sort of arm rest and wrist support like the RL has. Truly a wonderful car the RL, if only it were battery powered!
--Woof!�
Oct 16, 2011
WhiteKnight Model S has two knobs on the steering wheel, one for each thumb. Model S also has voice control where you speak what you want and the computer delivers. And in addition to these two inputs they also have an amazing touch screen.�
Oct 16, 2011
WhiteKnight 17" Screen = 2.5 iPads
So Elon Musk compared the 17" screen in the Model S to the MacBook Pro. The MBP has 1920x1200 pixel screen. Since the iPad is 1024 x 768 can somebody develop an iPad emulator since there's room for 2 iPads + HVAC and Volume controls? I am assuming that Android is a given since it's Free / Open Source (you guys would know better)?
Barring a running copy of iOS on the Model S how about an AirPlay + Bluetooth solution where if you have an iPad in the car and paired with the Model S you can see the iPad screen remotely and the touchpad of the Model S controls your iPad. Or maybe even more simply you just plug the iPad into the Model S USB port and you can handle it that way?
At one point Apple was really interested in working with auto makers on iPod/iPhone integration. Maybe they would be open to some iPad integration.�
Oct 16, 2011
doug On the Roadster, I'd say that's what your handbrake is for. But I agree the Model S shouldn't roll back on hills when in Drive. The car has electric parking brakes on the rear wheels, and I suspect they'll use them for that.�
Oct 17, 2011
AnOutsider WK I don't see iOS emulation, and with how much the system controls, I don't think installing or running another OS is a good idea either. Apps and interfaces (like AirPlay) would be the way to go IMO�
Oct 17, 2011
TEG No fingerprints either.�
Oct 18, 2011
neroden Thanks for all the feedback from Tesla.
I'm pretty happy with almost all of that.
Good!
Excellent!
I know this is federal law, but I hope they are *very* careful with the noise testing. This is going to be HARD to get right, and easy to make extremely annoying.
The noise generator had also better be turned off when the car is in Park, with the accessories operating. I intend to take this car to the drive-in.
I'm on the bench-seat side of the preferences.
I'm short. My fiancee is shorter. Unless they make the seatbacks very flat (which is a good idea), I expect we're going to end up with our heads sitting ten inches in front of the back of the seat, with the headrest towering uselessly above and behind us.
This could be dealt with best if the seatback is very, very flat, so that it's possible to comfortably use any part of the back as a headrest just as much as any other part. If the seatback is at all scooped (which is bad for your back anyway, so it's a bad idea, but it's common), then adjustable headrests are a *must*, because non-adjustable ones simply don't function for many people.
As long as the default is max, I'll be happy.
OK, one HUGE question: where are the mechanical controls for the headlights? We've heard it specified that wipers and turn signals are on stalks. But we need to make absolutely sure that the headlights are on a stalk too. Anyone got confirmation of that yet?�
Oct 18, 2011
Mycroft They wouldn't have been on a stalk on the beta because they're from MB which has the headlights (other than high beams) on a dash dial to the left of the steering column. Nobody knows how the production car will be configured.�
Oct 19, 2011
onlinespending Thanks for the insider info gg. Been meaning to respond for a while now. Here's my take on things.
I think it's a must they use a matte screen to reduce glare. All touchscreen nav systems I've seen in cars use matte. Of course they use resistive touchscreens and not capacitive touchscreens. But I read that the betas are using IR for touchscreen input, which would mean they could certainly use a matte screen. I think it's also important that they stick with an IR based touchscreen solution (similar to the new Kindle Touch). This means we'll be able to use the touchscreen in colder climates when wearing gloves. Considering virtually everything is controlled via the touchscreen, this is a must.
I'd like to see Tesla make clever use of that center console for storage. Right now it's too stark and does not make efficient use of all that space. I get that they want to somehow show off the fact that they don't have the huge tranny hump, but lets not sacrifice a natural place to have lots of storage for the simple fact of trying to differentiate yourself from an ICE car.
Good to hear. Fully adjustable front seats is big. Need to have lumbar support control as well. I'm worried they're going to use some sort of one-size-fits-all sports seats that are awfully uncomfortable.
I'd also like to see other items displayed on the driver's LCD. For instance, turn by turn directions would be a natural fit. Just needs to show how far until the next turn to alert the driver and keep his eyes more on the road and less on the center 17" screen.
I could care less about adaptive cruise control. Though I'd like some intelligent synergy between cruise control and regen. Perhaps with the aid of an accelerometer to measure the grade of the road and the current RPM (and perhaps even real-time elevation data from the map) it can more efficiently use regen that changes based on driving conditions as it attempts to maintain a constant speed set by cruise control. One thing that's always annoyed me with ICE based cruise control is that it tries too hard to maintain your cruise control speed while ignoring RPM. When going up hill it'll floor it to maintain the speed, and while going downhill it'll brake to maintain the speed. I'd rather it sacrifice a bit on the set speed to be more efficient while going uphill, and while going downhill I'd rather it allow itself to go a bit beyond the set speed to make more efficient use of potential energy.
I certainly understand why they want to incorporate this. I can't tell you how many times I've noticed how silent Prius hybrids are when driving at low speeds in a parking lot. They are far more quiet than an idling ICE. But I certainly don't want my car making annoying beeps every time I travel at low speeds down a low speed limit road. Imagine they set the speed to 15 mph. That'll just encourage EV owners to drive faster in parking lots to avoid the annoying beep!!
I think this is a big mistake if they decide not to include adjustable headrests. Not only is it a safety concern, but a major comfort concern. I'm 6'5" and I'm worried that my head will reach past the head rests and will not be supported in the event of a collision.
I'm OK if it's not configurable, but they should have some sort of intelligent adaptive regen. They could use an accelerometer, current RPM data, and even real-time elevation (and its rate of change) from map data to measure the grade of the road (and how long it'll persist from map data) to more effectively change regen based on road conditions.
I have them in my Lexus, and quite honestly rarely use them despite having black leather seats. But that's probably mainly because I forget to do so. I can live without them, and heated seats are certainly more important to have.�
Oct 19, 2011
vfx ACC is what CC really wishes it could be. The car knows when you are uncomfortably coming up on the slower driver that has changed lanes in front of you and slows down without any driver intervention. It's exactly what it should be.
The CC in the Roadster is pretty basic but with the electric motor combo of instant control of acceleration and regen for deceleration the car LOCKS at speed, Uphill, downhill it never varies more than one MPH -if that) It's nothing like ICEs and aautomatic transmissions pathetically motor revving and braking to try to maintain speed. Another place EVs rule.�
Oct 19, 2011
robaross It's unfortunate that ventilated (cooled) seats will not be available. Not a deal breaker, but in S FL they sure come in handy. I have mine on full blast at all times, and when service turns it off, I immediately notice the difference. And my leather is very light in color. Black would be much worse. Oh well!�
Oct 19, 2011
onlinespending The problem is, the ventilation usually only comes from the seat and not the back. So you still have the issue of a sweaty back. I don't know about you, but my back seems to sweat the most on a hot day pressed against the seat�
Oct 19, 2011
AnOutsider Hmm. We have this in our car, and it comes up from the back as well. Heck, I don't even feel it come through the seats (jeans on usually), but the back... so lovely. Especially after the gym :smile:�
Oct 19, 2011
WhiteKnight The fact that Elon Musk said you can set the temperature of your car and the car will maintain that temperature throughout the day is amazing. So the A/C can run the whole time you're at lunch, so the whole car will be cool when you get back in. Or you can tell the car when you'll be back and it will decide when to start cooling things down to be ready for your arrival.
There are a ton of things EVs can do that ICEs cannot. This is just one.�
Oct 19, 2011
TEG I can use an iPhone app to remotely turn the climate control on for the Nissan LEAF. I think Volt can do the same thing.
But leaving it on all the time to keep the car constantly cooled? Doesn't that seem like a waste of energy? I would think pre-conditioning just before you get in the car would make more sense than always having it manage temp just in case.�
Oct 19, 2011
roblab Doesn't it drive up to the front lobby for you? You would think! Sheesh!�
Oct 19, 2011
onlinespending you know what, my car might even be like that too. just shows you how little i use the cooled seats! and that's not to say that it doesn't get mighty hot where i am during the summer. it's more out of habit of not thinking to use them even when i could benefit a bunch from using them.�
Oct 19, 2011
Kipernicus I think the big empty space is great for purses. Add-on modules could put in a filing cabinet, locked storage, drink cooler, flip out desks, what have you.
+1!�
Oct 23, 2011
drbradfo Maintaining a constant temperature is cheaper then trying to drop hot car down room temp. Just like your home a/c, better to leave it on all day then try to cool off a hot house the evening.
Think of it this way, what is more expensive? Going from 0-60, or cruising at 60? Of course there is some point in time that cruising consumes more power.�
Oct 23, 2011
Todd Burch Actually, it's better to turn it off during the day. When you turn off the A/C, there's less of a temperature gradient between the inside and outside, so as the interior heats up, less heat flows to the inside. However, the bigger factor is that air conditioners are less efficient when they cycle on and off versus turning on once and staying on. That's why we have programmable thermostats
Here are some sources, although there are probably a million more:
Five air-conditioning myths busted | Yahoo! Green
efficient air conditioner use | Leave Your AC On or Turn It Off? | Rodale News
10 Air Conditioning Mistakes to Avoid - Article :: Networx�
Oct 23, 2011
stopcrazypp Usually for the evening (when the outside is already cold), opening all the windows is already enough to cool off the house significantly. Particularly effective if you are at home and can open all the windows immediately after the noon heat has passed (as opposed to opening only after coming home in the evening; in that case, having a ceiling fan helps cope with the heat until it cools off).
The expense of using air conditioning is related to the energy used. Yes, in terms of instantaneous power, cooling off a hot house will use more compared to maintaining a constant temperature. But energy is the product of power and time, so you also have to compare the amount of time at that power level. When you are talking about 8-10 hours of maintaining temperature, vs a couple hours of cooling off the house, there's a significant different in time, which favors the cooling.�
Oct 23, 2011
gg_got_a_tesla +1. It takes less than an hour for my house to come to a reasonable temp if the windows are opened up early in the evening. I dare not leave the AC on during the day (when noone's home anyway) given my time-of-use metering - at almost 30 cents a kwh, I'd rather my solar panels feed the grid and I get credit for that! Consumption at night - and when my Model S would end up being charged at - is at a measly 7.5 cents per unit!�
Oct 23, 2011
TEG Disagree from an energy usage standpoint.
Although, keeping the temp mild might have some benefit for making things last longer - like delicate fabric, paintings, etc.
If your car interior temp was kept mild all the time the dashboard and seats would probably last longer... But at the expense of a lot of energy used.
Also, for the house example, if you have pets at home they might need it...
Personally I never cool my house or car when I am not there, except to use the LEAF timer to "pre-condition" the vehicle a few minutes before getting in if it is particularly hot or cold outside.�
Oct 24, 2011
drbradfo My personal experience is that it is cheaper to leave it on. But this last summer I think I had the ac on for a total of only 8 days! Portland summer was very mild.�
Oct 24, 2011
Lloyd Back on topic.....I suggest that the rear seats need a depression for your passengers rear. There was too much sliding while turning. This would be a huge improvement to the seats. I believe that an adjustable headrest would be better than the present solid back for the front seats.�
Oct 24, 2011
Mycroft I'm a fan of the bench seat in the back. Firstly, any occupants would be strapped in, unlike many in the test drive. Secondly, hopefully the driver would be considerate enough to not take turns sharply while there are passengers in the back. I'm not even allowed to take turns fast when my wife is in the passenger bucket seat. :tongue:�
Oct 24, 2011
Trnsl8r Since we're on about the seats, anyone hear anything about seat memory? I had a Cadillac rental a while back where you could memorize the seating adjustments, so when I would use the car after my (slightly shorter) wife had used it, I just pressed a button and seat, steering wheel, pedals, all swiftly moved into place for me.
This would be an expected feature for a family car in this price range, no?�
Oct 24, 2011
Mycroft Yes, it will have seat memory tied to your key fob. So when you open the door, the seat and steering wheel (and possibly the music) will automatically adjust to your key fob settings. You won't have to press and hold a button down until the seat stops moving like in my Mercedes.�
Oct 24, 2011
gg_got_a_tesla ...and the side mirrors and climate control.�
Oct 24, 2011
TEG efficient air conditioner use | Leave Your AC On or Turn It Off? | Rodale News
Five air-conditioning myths busted | Yahoo! Green
Sort-of on topic as there is discussion about Model S running the AC all day...�
Oct 24, 2011
Kipernicus Car seats would install better with flatter seats too. In our current cars the car seats put in a huge depression in the front portion of the rear seat and hardly touch the back portion. I don't think that depression is ever going to pop back out.
I'm in the same "no fast cornering with wife in the car" camp.�
Oct 24, 2011
NigelM Everyone sees this from their own geographical location. In FL with 98% humidity in the summer, leaving your home AC off for hours every day will rapidly lead to mold and ruined furnishings, never mind the potential healthcare costs. That said, however, cars tend to fair much better as they are much closer to being a sealed unit than most houses are. It doesn't make sense for me to leave the Roadster AC on all the time (and I wouldn't for the Model S) but I always try to park under cover if I possibly can.�
Oct 24, 2011
kgb Finally saw the Beta at the Houston Showcase opening.
One thing I haven't seen discussed much: The data plan. I notice that there is talk of using the Model S' cellular connection as a wireless hotspot. But I'd like to propose the opposite. My phone has a wireless hotspot. I would like the car to be able to accept a WiFi connection from my phone. The advantage of my cellphone being a hotspot is that it will work when I am not in the car. Otherwise, I will need to sign up for another data plan, just to service the car's internet needs.
I'd like to add a +1 to many of the comments regarding the seats. The seats in the beta were not as comfortable as I would have expected. They are more comfortable than in the Roadster, but my reference for a "luxury sedan" is my Lexus. I suggest that TM ensure that the seats are as comfortable as in the Lexus LS 460.
I see a lot of comments regarding ventilated seats. I agree that the vehicle's ability to maintain the cabin temp while parked precludes the need for that. But I would suggest that perforated leather be an option. It is my understanding that the perforations keep the leather from heating up as much.
I'd like to also express concern about the lack of designed storage where the transmission hump is normally. I want to echo @onlinespending (post#172). Just because you can have a big empty space, doesn't mean you should. My wife, who will be the primary driver of this vehicle, expressed grave concern regarding the lack of front seat storage. To my eyes, the big empty space up front looks like a good place to leave a handbag, but women don't see it that way. I didn't ask her why, but I suspect that it has something to do with the fact that the purse is a huge cavern in which nothing can be found easily. Plus, it will be on the floor, requiring a stop to rummage through it. Having storage up front allows commonly used items to be within quick reach. Plus, I've found that my wife drops things she needs at her finger tips in the cup holder of our current car. That means that when we are both in the car, we are down one cup holder. I suggest that TM build up that big empty space with a bunch of storage dividers. The idea of playing footsie with the passenger seemed cute at first, but in reality, many drivers like the secure feeling of having the car envelop them. It is even better when the parts of the car used to envelop the driver will actually hold items at arms reach.
I had adaptive cruise control before. I'd like to +1 ACC if it's not too expensive.
I'd like to chime in on all the people concerned that accidental FOB input would open their windows: We should be so lucky! Have you seen the range of the Roadster FOB. Unless you park your car on your office desk, it won't be a problem. What I would like to request is greater FOB range. I think 50' would be nice... the Roadster gets about 3' range.�
Oct 24, 2011
gg_got_a_tesla Yes, been thinking on the same lines too. I'd not pay another $20-$30 a month for a data plan for the car alone when I really spend no more than 1 hour in it (at the most) on any given day during which I may or may not need internet connectivity for the car. I'd rather use tethering with my iPhone (much like I'd for my WiFi-only iPad) to get the car connecting as well - the phone and I are separated only at sleep-time :smile: so, it makes more sense to pay for the data plan there.�
Oct 24, 2011
AnOutsider +2! I was thinking about that as well. We have the wifi hotspot in our car now and in areas where T-Mobile sucks, sprint works well so I've wished I could push internet back to the car from my phone.�
Oct 24, 2011
gg_got_a_tesla On the other hand, as some have speculated, if the upfront price that we pay for the car includes lifetime free wireless connectivity (a la the Kindle), I'm all for that! Extremely unlikely, of course, unless Tesla wants that to be a huge incentive to lure fence-sitters.�
Oct 24, 2011
NigelM Sounds like something a marketing person will add to the Sigs....�
Oct 24, 2011
jkirkebo How will you then be able to remotely start cooling/heating the cabin, get notifications for charging stop/start, see charge status etc. ? All this the Leaf can do, and 5 years of data service is included with the car.�
Oct 24, 2011
gg_got_a_tesla Hmm.... good point. If the car can connect to WiFi, then, I'm good when the car's parked in my garage. 5 years of data service with the Leaf is very good; expecting lifetime was greedy but, I'll take 5 years on the Model S!�
Oct 24, 2011
drbradfo It would be great if there was unlimited connectivity for status and control included (plugin status, charge status, climate control, location, etc), but things like streaming music and web browsing could be separate.�
Oct 24, 2011
Doug_G Didn't Elon say during his talk at the factory tour, that when the car is parked at home it can hook into your home WiFi? I seem to remember him mentioning that. If so, you could just as easily use your phone's hotspot.
There's a solution for that, which is to reposition the antenna. Improved Key FOB Range�
Oct 24, 2011
Cobos I'd say include some dataplan as long as the car is in warranty, depending on how long that lasts in different countries or as long as the battery is in warranty? As a big reseller they should be able to get a decent dataplan for in prices around $50 for 3-5 years. For a $60 000+ car that shouldn't be too much to expect.
Cobos�
Oct 24, 2011
cinergi Yes, I was sure I'd found this information out during the Beta event, too (it may have been Elon at his talk -- I don't recall where I learned it)�
Oct 25, 2011
onlinespending But what would you do if you're out with your car and say grocery shopping on a cold day? Would be nice to be able to remotely control the cabin temp before returning to your car.
Yeah, low-bandwidth stuff like status and control should be offered free as far as I'm concerned. It'd be like the free 3G whispernet for downloading ebooks from the Amazon Kindle. I could see some technical challenges separating the low-bandwidth stuff for free from the high-bandwidth stuff offered at a monthly fee. They could simply have two separate 3G radios, each with their own unique MEID or IMEI id.�
Oct 26, 2011
Tempus from the beta event, that's almost exactly what was described to me when i asked about it. There would be a free option that would be low bandwidth, and would do things like upload data to the Tesla servers, etc... and then the option for the 3G or 4G (whatever they can get implemented in time) connectivity for a yearly fee.
The guy also talked about the ability to tether the car to your phone - but didn't feel like that was a very elegant solution (although it would solve the issue of the 3G being outdated well before the car)�
Oct 26, 2011
vfx Nice they are thinking about that.�
Oct 26, 2011
WhiteKnight Looks like Toyota beat Tesla to the punch:
Toyota first to market with MirrorLink functionality in iQ
�
Nov 3, 2011
Zextraterrestrial Oh Shi!!! handles?
Nothing to do w/ all of the connectivity issues (No cell phone and loving life!)
My wife is demanding oh *sugar* handles or else she won't ride with me. I noticed that this is one of the few cars I have rode in that might need the handles and doesn't have them. It is no fun ripping around a corner and having you passenger fall in your lap, unless that's where you want your passenger ;>�
Nov 3, 2011
Kevin Harney I take it you do NOT want your wife in your lap�
Nov 3, 2011
NigelM Never missed them in the Roadster.....�
Nov 3, 2011
Doug_G The seat bolsters are so good in the Roadster, why would you need them? Just tell her to put on her seat belt!�
Nov 3, 2011
shark2k The 'Oh SH!!' handles are nice to have for more than just that. They are helpful for older people pulling themselves out of the car or holding onto them. I think they should be included, as well as they can be kept flush with the roof as has been done it other cars.
-Shark2k�
May 5, 2012
Tommy From the Stores Tour Thread:
I saw all four of the beta's early Friday morning. I can overlook the deficiencies in the fit and finish of the red, black and silver being they were labeled "beta prototype" and presumable made much earlier than the white one. However, this close to actual production of the RC's, I was very disappointed Tesla still does not have the gaps between body parts correct. I was told by a rep that the cars are still being hand assembled and that was the reason for the misalignment. SUGGESTION: Tesla needs to take an extra day to get the fitment right between panels; why give the public at large an opportunity to question Tesla's manufacturing competence?
My wife commented on how plain the inside of the S looks. I compared the X interior to the S interior and IMO the X is much more sophisticated,and sexy looking; plus, it has storage in the doors!. Speaking of storage, I was told by a rep that the lack of storage/cup holders in the back was due to Tesla wanting to achieve a 5 star rating and: Storage = Projectiles = No 5 star rating. I don't know what to make of that line of reasoning. SUGGESTION: Add integrated armrest/cupholders in bench seating.
Two small additions/changes that would improve the interior of the S (besides adding built-in storage/cup holders in the bench seat like every other car manufacturer does): SUGGESTION: Cover the seat track rails with plastic caps so the rails are not visible; change the plastic door sill to one like what is on the model X, thou with Model S engraved on the sill.
Lastly, my wife had her blouse get temporarily caught in the door handle as it was retracting from its open position. We had just open and closed the door and she had stuck her head in the open window to view the interior when the handle closed and pulled on her blouse. I can envision a scenario where a man with a tie is leaning in to talk to a passenger right after closing the door: does the door handle close on his tie if it's between the door handle and car body? I am not completely sold on the retracting handles. SUGGESTION: verify the handles are fail/safe; then verify again.
Hey, I am still a believer in Tesla, just wanted to post as I know Tesla reads these threads and my comments should be taken in a constructive way.�
May 5, 2012
vfx I think the "Plain looking" is like the work that one does to prep a home for sale. Without anything for anyone to hate you get a very simple basic design. Add you own bling. Color, tassels, chrome, leopard skin, beaded seats, sky's the limit!
Roadster owners have done some cool stuff so it's doable.�
May 5, 2012
Tommy And I suspect its Tesla's business plan that the 'bling" we need to purchase will be Tesla branded. How convenient for Tesla to design a bare interior and then up sell required accessories to bring a car up to the level of its competitors. OK, snarky mode off.�
May 5, 2012
Thumper Door handles catching ties and blouses could be a real problem, especially if the driver drove away. Possible solution would be to not retract the handles until the car is moving. Perhaps tied to the automatic door locking signal, usually about 10 mph.�
May 5, 2012
gg_got_a_tesla And gloves. Yes, letting them stay open till one drives off makes sense - sort of like auto folding mirrors as well on some cars that auto-open upon hitting 15 mph or so.�
May 5, 2012
vfx Actually it could be seen as a way for people who would not normally be able to afford a premium EV to buy bare.�
May 7, 2012
ElSupreme I actually much prefer basic non 'bling' interiors. I am glad I have the option to NOT get leather.
But I really miss the chance to finally get heated seats. My dad's cloth Subaru has heated seats why cant the Model S?!?!?�
May 7, 2012
Tommy Keep in mind the "interior looks plain" comment was made while looking at a fully loaded $100K signature model. It's the design of the interior, be it fabric or leather. My wife thought Tesla missed the marked and I agree with her.�
May 7, 2012
smoothoperator I am curious as to why the rear passengers cannot control the rear climate system. This must be done from the front touch screen which is very odd, even in cars that are 15 years old there is a slider wheel that allows rear passengers to turn off the vents.
With all the space back there it is very weird that you cannot recline the rear seats. The concealed storage thing even though I do not agree with it, I can understand their explanation. I am just trying to figure out why common amenities that have been on cars for decades, are not on the Model S.�
May 7, 2012
Thumper I must have missed it but what sedans have reclining back seats?�
May 7, 2012
AnOutsider I imagine as they go forward, future cars will start to see more bells and whistles. I don't (completely) fault them for playing it safe in the beginning, though they did set themselves up with the whole "best CAR in the world" thing.
I think he meant that separately. i.e. there's a lot of space in the back, why don't the seats recline? A8 and Equus rear seats recline though.�
May 7, 2012
smoothoperator Avalon
Malibu
Camry
Prius
Legacy
G35
5 Series GT
7,LS,S,A8, RL
Probably a lot more I am missing�
May 7, 2012
jcstp if I recall, if a constructor installs 2 different chairs in different models (backseats included) they have to do crashtesting for each separate model! This can get costly if you do not include them in all your models!�
May 7, 2012
Trnsl8r I am also partial to non-leather seats, but honestly think it's a bit cheap of TM to not include seat setting memory for them. We're talking $50k+ car after all...�
May 7, 2012
Robert.Boston Memory or heat -- I'd seriously be considering fabric otherwise, but with two people who will regularly switch off driving the Model S, we need key-linked seat memory. Heated seats would be nice, too.�
May 7, 2012
AnOutsider ...with a big battery pack. That price has got to be absorbed SOMEWHERE.�
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