Apr 21, 2013
gg_got_a_tesla I feel for you Sig guys; I really do. Tesla could have done (and still can do) better. Free service for the next 8 years (really $4,800 with ranger service) would please practically everyone as service's essential for the car anyway. No doubt that's missed revenue upfront - no guarantees as some Sigs may opt for pay-as-you-go - but, looking at it differently, the cost of the perk is really spread over 8 years/100k miles.
I wonder though if the vocal Sig folks here on TMC echo the thoughts of the rest of the 1,200 North American Sigs or if the rest are blissfully unaware or just contented. Can't tell how the Europe Sig reservations are trending too to predict how the X would do on the Sig front.
Despite being a champion of Tesla (the two S reservations that I've helped sell to family and friends have now been delivered!), I'd seriously advise anyone who asks me about making an X reservation to avoid the Sig queue, however impatient they might be.�
Apr 21, 2013
dsm363 Anything they do (free service) they will have to do for the Sig Model X as well so I'm sure they are taking that into account. I like the engraved plaque idea for the car. Something personalized but not expensive for Tesla to produce.�
Apr 21, 2013
walla2 You assume alot dsm363. I had no risk of being bumped back to the end of the production line or even far down the line. I had a Signature reservation (that I wanted to get early) and a production reservation of P1407. I had $45,000 tied up with the company. I at one point was going to get a Signature and a production car but after fumbling so much on the first, I cancelled my production reservation when I was at the end of my finalize window. At that point, it was too late to move down, or I would have forfeit $10,000 which was more than the Sig premium. I did not have the option to go back to production without an additional loss over the premium. I voluntarily committed my funds to get the car earlier and Tesla sold the Signature to me with that idea. They fell way behind and failed to deliver on the only reason I upgraded. Tesla did find time to build other people's cars with production reservation numbers in the 2000's that were delivered before my Signature, just not time for mine.
In the end, Tesla lost a sell because of poor communication and missed windows. When I cancelled my other car, they called me back and told me they wanted me back . . . didn't even realize I was a Signature customer that already had a car "in the works." I would not define this as white glove customer service.�
Apr 21, 2013
dsm363 If your point is the ramp-up didn't go perfectly or that there were communication issues, I don't think anyone would argue with you. Reservation numbers don't mean delivery sequence. That was well defined before you locked down your Sig model. They said they would deliver Sigs first then 85 kWh packs before 60s and 40s (now canceled) and that standard suspension and the multi coat red would follow in spring. A few Sigs had production issues and had to go back through production and others had trouble getting shipped. So someone with a loaded 85 kWh car and a 2000 reservation number would get their car from P1 who decided to get a 60 or 40 kWh car. Fair? Maybe not but that's how they decided to roll things out and it was announced before you locked in. Yes, some things have changed along the way but that basic sequence has been the same since before people had to finalize. And if you were an early production reservation holder who opted for local pickup vs someone how was taking delivery in Hawaii (I understand they had multiple issues with getting car on the boat) then that makes for a big delivery gap.
What would have been your solution? Should Tesla have halted all deliveries until every single Signature customer got their car regardless of delivery location? This would be the ideal but that would mean storing cars in the factory (and keeping them plugged in) waiting for every last Sig to be delivered. I realize your delivery didn't go smoothly but I'm not sure what solution you would prefer other than an exact delivery sequence based on date ordered.�
Apr 21, 2013
Doug_G This was quite the moving target. I had a Roadster, but I wasn't able to get friends or family on the "friends and family" list because they had quietly changed the policy on that to "owners only". I wasn't able to get the $10k discount, which they had quietly discontinued just before I reserved my S. (I know of one Canadian who got the discount after complaining - he was able to prove that a few Americans got the discount after he reserved). Signature wasn't available to Canadians when I made my reservation, so Tesla offered every Canadian who had already ordered a Model S the opportunity to upgrade to Signature without increasing their deposit, as long as they responded within 48 hours. THAT was the one program I was able to take advantage of. On the other hand, our Sig premium was significantly higher than for Americans.
Signature was a much bigger benefit for someone who got on the list at the last minute. He would have gotten a huge boost up the queue.�
Apr 21, 2013
Eberhard you are happy, you got your signature already. we in europe will get possession of ours not before july. that means, we gave for 1 year longer a credit to tesla at full risk but we get compensations only for being ask to buy packets which should be part of the evolution process improving the car by removing problems and hassles found. where is the compensation for the interest we gave up in favor for Tesla? nada!�
Apr 21, 2013
walla2 This is false. The only cars delivered when I finalized were the Founders' cars. The whole reservation number does not equal delivery sequence thing didn't become clear for quite a while later. That too was a failure and remains one.
I don't think they should have held up deliveries, but the situation of getting a slightly better than beta car late at a higher cost was my issue. Others have other issues but back to my original point, I do not recommend the Sig line because they won't promise or in some cases even attempt to deliver the car early and there will likely be unfinished design issues/upgrades that production buyers will get for free. They should have done better. They didn't. It is unlikely Tesla will be ready to do better by the Sig X, and they make no verbal or written promises except that they have the right to change everything and deliver on their terms. Sadly, this operating mentality makes me wonder if dealerships would be better but that creates a separate set of problems.
In the end, the solution to my problem has remained elusive. I requested an explanation, apology, or both. For a reason unknown to me, Tesla doesn't seem to be interested in doing that. If they did, I probably wouldn't care as much anymore and could move on. If they told me my car was damaged and had to be rebuilt, great. I would understand that. I wouldn't be able to make some of the arguments against the Sig line. I do not see what is so hard about being honest that they messed up my order and missed multiple opportunities to get the situation under control.�
Apr 21, 2013
patp But you'll get a better car with more options like performance plus or cold weather
�
Apr 22, 2013
Joel This not necessarily true. The Model X pricing has not been announced. Accordingly, there is no known Model X premium. Therefore, Tesla would not have to backtrack on any prepaid options.
My position on this matter is: Signature owners paid more money for equivalent general production cars (with the exception of the limited red paint and white leather). I left "early delivery" out of this discusion because some cars (my father being one) received their cars literally 24-48 hours before general production cars. I understand what you mean by "free service." However, it is more accuarte to phrase it as "prepaid service." I would like the discussion to center on were that premium went or where it is going. To suggest Signature owners are receiving anything for free is incorrect. If Signature owners are to receive anything in the future, we prepaid for it. It was not or will not be free.
But, I agree with you DSM363, this is a slippery slope, and Tesla will not recognize our prepayment retroactively. Honestly (unfortunatly?), I do not expect Tesla to address this issue. However, if Tesla were to do something, I would recommend the Signature premium (again, previously paid funds) be applied to service and/or the coming data plan.�
Apr 22, 2013
dsm363 The Sigs do have more leather on the interior so that is one very small physical difference. The price difference was known prior to finalizing so people knew there were spending more for basically the same car. By 'free service' I meant Tesla would pay for the first 4 years of service ($1,900) or refund that amount for those that already bought it. Someone else suggested this as one solution.
The early delivery could be significant. Someone who may have been P8,000 could come in on the tail end of the Sig list. For Sig 1,000 vs P1,000, the difference could be almost nothing depending on which model was ordered.�
Apr 22, 2013
Joel I see. I did not know about the leather. You learn something new every day :smile:�
Apr 22, 2013
brianman I've mostly paged this out, but my recollection is that the "additional leather" benefit of the "Sig vs. Production" does not translate to the "Sig Perf vs. Production Perf" comparison.
No, I'm not suggesting a "Sig Perf Angst" thread. Just making note of the detail for completeness.�
Apr 24, 2013
unclfuzzy echoing the "wish I hadn't read this thread and re-kindled the sig premium angst" sentiment. The gym bag is nice. haven't used it tho. I definitely don't want any personalized badging. I don't know how long I intend to keep the car, but I certainly don't want to think about my name popping up on the screen or emblazoned in the frunk for the next owner. +1 for including service, but I'm with the folks who are assuming it's basically a donation to Tesla.�
Apr 24, 2013
huntjo I never even got a gym bag�
Apr 24, 2013
Joel If it's any consolation, my family has three Signatures (myself, brother, and father). We received 1 gym bag (my brother and father were disappointed).�
Apr 24, 2013
dflye At least for me, the benefits of being a Sig owner are practically non-existent compared with the additional expense. Minor badging tweaks, various minor interior / exterior changes, some that seem to randomly drop off the production line (whether one is a sig or not!), a few extremely minor perks like a gym bag... the notion of getting the car earlier certainly didn't pan out for me on the east coast.
So, while I'm glad to have helped out Tesla financially as they ramped up production, it really was a case of over-sell and under-deliver as far as I'm concerned. Avoid like the plague for future models, at least if the future mimics the past.�
May 4, 2013
spentan Hmm, I've got a RHD Signature S Reservation, and when I did the maths, considering all the stuff which was included on the Sig, If you were to get all those extras (Tech Package, Sound, Twin Chargers, 21in wheels, Multi-Coat Sig Red Paint, etc etc), it basically worked out to about 2-3k more for the signature (which is why I upgraded my standard reservation).
I am hoping that the RHD Sigs will have all the bugs ironed out, I think most are happy with their cars now. I don't know if I'd bother with the Performance Plus personally, hmm,�
May 5, 2013
Psullivan I think many of us bought Sigs for many reasons. I really wanted the Sig red for one. I also felt strongly about supporting the company and technology too. I put my money where my mouth was in the deposit and buying the stock. I too wish there were a few more perks for taking the financial risk early on with the Sig. I hope there will be more in the future. As others have mentioned maybe we could get some perks in the service area or with upgrades. I would actually like to see Sig owners get a reserved parking spot or two at the Tesla stores in the malls. (That probably won't play well with the production owners, sorry guys). I was recently at the Santana Row store in San Jose needing a charge. The place was full with new cars. The store staff said the owners hadn't checked in with them. (As a side note it would be a nice courtesy when owners park at the mall in the Tesla spots that they check in with the store in case some of us road trippers need a charge. At least leave your phone number). In San Diego where we live we leave our FOB just in case someone needs power.) For me the jury is still out if the Sig was fully worth it but I did get my car in November and still have the "grin".�
May 8, 2013
Blurry_Eyed Psullivan, If you jot down the VIN of the cars that are plugged in, you can give them to the people in the Tesla store and they can try to contact the respective owners by phone since their numbers are in the Tesla system. I've received a couple calls from the Bellevue store when they have needed me to move my car so they could access the chargers there. May not work all the time if someone doesn't have a cell phone number input in the Tesla system, but worth a shot if you really need a charge and all the spots are blocked with owners cars.�
May 8, 2013
Trnsl8r Not to stray too far off topic, but Santana Row could really do well with a sign or two in the parking area, letting owners know what's what... If you make your bed...�
Jul 28, 2013
robballan I am baffled by all this complaining about Sig owners somehow being cheated by having to pay more than production buyers. That's absolutely not true. Just today I priced the P85+ (can't price a P85 anymore) fully loaded like my Sig. $109,670. My Sig sticker was $109,050. Where's the beef? Beyond being an early driver, I received white leather, several gifts from Tesla, and am treated very well by Tesla service whenever I have had an issue. I'm perfectly happy being a Sig buyer � in fact, happy enough that I am a Sig Model X buyer, too.
More importantly, I am very pleased to have been able to help Tesla finance the development and manufacture of the Model S, by giving them an interest-free loan of $35,000 for a year. I benefit by knowing that the company is doing well and will continue to be there as my car ages and needs future service. I am pleased that Tesla will be able to make future models that I might like to buy. I am pleased that I have helped to transform the auto industry and make a difference. Maybe that isn't enough for some buyers. It is for me.�
Jul 28, 2013
AnOutsider You're comparing the price of a car with options not available a year ago to the price we paid? Sure, the price may be similar, but the P+ alone is much more car than we had available in the handling department, and if I'm remembering correctly, its a 6.5k option. So by your math, you paid the same and got less. Grats.�
Jul 28, 2013
brianman Also there have been several price increases due to (effectively) inflation so yet again it's an apples to oranges to compare with a "today configuration".�
Jul 28, 2013
robballan @AnOutsider: I agree that the P85+ is "more" than a P85. But an identically rigged P85+ is actually a bit more than a Sig P85. Your $6500 option was standard on the Sig (though admittedly in a less advanced version). It's not as though you got Performance+ and Sig owners got nothing at all: they got a Performance package, too. Would I have liked the P85+? Sure. But it wasn't available (or even known) at the time.
It's ridiculous to compare later versions of the car to what was available at the start. The only valid knock would be if an original comparably equipped non-Sig P85 was less expensive than the Sig P85. From what I can tell, it wasn't. IIRC we got the same car, at the same price, with some options only available to Sig buyers: white leather, Sig red.
The fact that Tesla improves their product over time for the same price is a good thing. Apple does this, too; so do many other companies. Everyone in the computer world knows that their latest purchase is obsolete when it leaves the store. If you always want the last best version for the same price, you would never buy anything. Just think how you are going to feel in a year if US models come with parking sensors, different visors, etc. You will have "paid the same and got less", too. By that logic, no one should ever buy the first version of anything.
BTW, thanks for your grats. I'm happy to support innovation early.�
Jul 28, 2013
brianman It absolutely was true. You are incorrect. At the time, the price differential was $3,550 (non-Perf) or $5,050 (Perf), IIRC. This is not including the time-value lost on the $35,000 deposit differential.�
Jul 28, 2013
robballan @brianman. Except that it isn't. My original order was for a non-Sig P85, fully loaded. I was able to upgrade to a Sig FOR THE SAME PRICE when someone dropped off the list, simply by increasing my deposit. I didn't get a price increase just for up'ing to a Sig.
Let's not use the time value of money to compare car prices. It's a side issue. $35,000 * .01 = $350. Not worth considering.�
Jul 28, 2013
brianman Then you made out like a bandit. Sounds like someone messed up.�
Jul 28, 2013
robballan @Brianman: What was the price for a fully loaded P85 as you remember it? Tech package, performance, premium sound, pearl white, etc.�
Jul 28, 2013
brianman Since apparently there's some interest in going down memory lane...
Sig Perf numbers from my car.
Perf numbers courtesy of WayBackMachine from February 2012.
Difference: $5,050
SigPerf
Perf
Base
105,400
84,900 + 7,500
Paint
1,500
Roof
1,500
1,500
Tech
3,750
Sound
950
Shelf
250
Twin Chargers
1,500
Total
106,900
101,850
Numbers courtesy of Robert.Boston's post in December 2011.
So... what base + options combo are you going to order eventually? - Page 3
Difference: $3,550
Sig
85
Base
87,900 + 7,500
69,900 + 7,500
Paint
1,500
21"
3,500
Leather
1,500
Tech
3,750
Sound
950
Air
1,500
Shelf
250
Twin Chargers
1,500
Total
95,400
91,850
�
Jul 28, 2013
robballan And I was about to post that I, in fact, was wrong; after digging into old Motor Trend and Car & Driver reviews, I see that in fact there was a price difference, though it is very hard to reconstruct and I don't exactly match your figures. I stand corrected. Looking back now I see that my original order was priced at Sig pricing, so of course there was no increase when I moved off, then on, to the Sig list.
My apologies for taking a bad bite at the apple here and stirring things up (embarrassed sigh).
That said, I stand by my comments on the importance of Sig buyers to helping finance Tesla's early production and manufacture. It is true that Model S Sig buyers "paid more and got less" (though I think I might have said they paid more and got the same). It is also true that they played an important role at the time by "lending" Tesla the use of the their deposits for no interest. I don't mind that; in fact, I'm pleased that I could. Others may not be.
I can also agree that Sig buyers of future models will not be playing the same important role, and that there should be no price difference between the Sig and non-Sig versions; an advance deposit should be sufficient to gain early delivery (and other unique options that Tesla might offer).
BTW: I gained so much from the run-up in Tesla stock that I more than paid for my Sig, let alone any price difference. So perhaps it's easier for me to be sanguine about all this.�
Jul 28, 2013
brianman September 2012:
�
Jul 29, 2013
Smallfootprint I had this "Sig Angst" disease last summer as well and coming up on the 1-year anniversary of our (first failed) delivery window and reading about European Sig holders anxiety has recently reminded me of it.
I totally understand those who continue to harbor resentment (though I'm very happy with our post-delivery Tesla experience and have forgiven earlier transgressions), but I think signature owners may be more inclined to feel resentful of the new features because of how awful the signature rollout process was. Based on an admittedly limited sample size, I think most signature owners wouldn't have minded paying a few $k more for a similarly production equipped car (a la a donation) if the rollout had been smoother. We knew we were early adopters and were prepared for the car to add new features over time (like the Roadster did), but we kind of expected to be treated during the delivery process like we were traveling first-class rather than steerage.
By the time our car actually arrived with all the drama of multiple delivery windows missed and no updates or returned calls from Tesla until we raised holy hell and threatened to cancel our deposit (early signature reservation holders had the option of getting a full refund even after the car was built if delivery missed the window by more than 30 days), I was furious and decided no matter how much I liked the car I wouldn't suggest it to anyone until customer service improved.
That improvement seems to have happened and I now feel good about encouraging friends to buy the car and only occasionally have flashback nightmares about last summer. However, if the European signature rollout goes as poorly as it did in the States, I firmly believe that Tesla should end the signature program, refund the $35k to each signature reservation holder and just move them to the front of the production line. You can ask your most-loyal customers to pay more for a nearly identical product OR accept sup-par customer service and communication but asking both is a bad idea which will alienate fans.�
Jul 29, 2013
AnOutsider 100% agreed, and if the EU rollout is any indication, Tesla seems to continue to want to do both.�
Jul 30, 2013
brianman I disagree on a key point here. Then and now, the value of the U.S. Signature was worth at least the time-value of the extra $35k reservation. The point of contention (for me) was "higher price for equivalently configured GP vehicle". If you're going to charge me more, give me more. Early delivery with briefly-exclusive-red balances with higher-initial-deposit but not with "and pay $5k more".�
Jul 30, 2013
dsm363 Where do you draw the line? Some people hopped towards the end of the Sig line or off of the wait list ahead of a few thousand production reservation holders who waited for years. The Sig does have more extensive leaner on the inside but that isn't worth $5,000 I agree. Tesla needs to better define what the perks are and what the delivery advantage actually is for each market. Hopefully they are learning and do this for the Model X launch.
I would like it if Tesla offered some of these new features installed in newer models as a steep discount to Signature customers. That is an arbitrary line and will anger early production customers I'm sure. There really is little they can do short of refunding the $5,000 difference that would make people happy. Even then you'd have some people who really wanted Sig red but didn't think it was worth the $5,000 who might get angry. Basically, almost anything they do will piss someone off I'd bet.�
Jul 30, 2013
brianman This would ease the pain somewhat for sure (and definitely at a certain tipping point would make it well worth the $5k difference), but I won't hold my breath that they'll do this.
- - - Updated - - -
I'm fuzzy on the question here. Please elaborate if this wasn't rhetorical.�
Jul 30, 2013
dsm363 I agree the ship has likely sailed on a thing like money back. I hope they are listening (which they seem to do) and incorporate feedback in order to create a better informed Signature customer for the Model X launch.�
Jul 30, 2013
AnOutsider The thing is, they're making the sme mistakes in the EU, so, at least for the S, the ship seems to also have sailed on them learning from this.�
Jul 30, 2013
dsm363 That's possible. The gap between US and EU launches was less than a year during the continued ramp up and drive to profitability. They have plenty of time before Model X launch to address this so really no more excuses. If all they offer is red paint and 'be among the first to get your Model X' then people will know. They should even be in a place to hold Model as deliveries for a week before delivering production cars by that point.�
Jul 30, 2013
brianman At what point would you declare "knowing"? Technically speaking we "still have something coming for Signature Model S", according to an Elon quote that was never followed with any resolution. It's quite literally a "check's in the mail" kind of thing w/r/t the Elon quote. It's just as open-ended as "we'll do something for Roadster". Actually it's more open-ended because the Roadster quote from Teslive includes "next year".�
Jul 30, 2013
dsm363 Technically I knew before I finalized. I got exactly what was promised to me when I finalized. Sig red paint and my car before the production cars (true for over 95% of Sig customers I think. I know some were significantly delayed). They do have many open ended comments like that. Guess we will have to wait until the end of next year to find out about the Roadster.
If Tesla can't promise every single Sig is delivered before the production cars then they should probably change the wording to something that indicates there may be some overlap in delivery.�
Jul 30, 2013
brianman And now we seem to agree.�
Jul 31, 2013
Colasec The Signature Red is an absolutely gorgeous color. I saw one in the sun for the first time last Sunday (Hello #799 if you're out there! Shoot me a PM to say Hello) and was blown away by the color. Until seeing it in the sun I didn't think much of it, but wow... that's at least one exclusive aspect of being a Signature buyer.�
Jul 31, 2013
Blurry_Eyed I totally agree! My wife and I just love our Signature Red. But I wonder just how many Signature owners actually picked Signature Red and the Signature white interior, it would be interesting to know. I picked the Sig Red and White, but it seems anecdotal evidence would indicate that a fair number of Sig owners picked other colors, which would make owning a Signature car even less of a premium.�
Jul 31, 2013
spentan I've got a signature model s reservation for Australia, looking forward to getting the signature red and the white interior.
Considering they will be rare in aus as it is, it should keep the resale value high�
Jul 31, 2013
Beavis I got the Sig for the red, which I originally saw on the prototype. I wanted it and there was no getting around it. When I was at the service center yesterday to pick up my baby, she was parked in a sea of silver and black/almost black cars. She looked even more beautiful than the day I first laid eyes on her. It was worth the money (and I got mine after general production cars were delivered). No regrets.
BTW, how do you guys come up with a 5 grand Sig tax? My math says it's $3,650 less the price of a gym bag.�
Jul 31, 2013
Julian Cox Just to throw something into the mix that is not really a counterpoint to anything. I would imagine the US Sigs in particular already have a place as a really important piece of automotive history.�
Jul 31, 2013
Joel Did your calculation include the $2,500 price increase on January 1, 2013?�
Aug 1, 2013
Julian Cox I'd like to say something here.
If one were to look across the things I have written here and on Seeking Alpha it would be easy to assume at a first glance that I was some kind of unhinged Tesla fan boy without a balanced word to say.
It has been a bit difficult to avoid giving that impression when most of the conversation has revolved around dismantling endless erroneous attacks on the Tesla business.
Examples:
No, Tesla is not going to go bust nor will it struggle for working capital, ever again
No, Tesla is not making dirty cars that are more polluting that gasoline
No, Tesla will not be wiped out by the very industry it is disrupting
No, Hydrogen Fuel Cells and NG are not valid environmental alternatives
No, Exponential increases in atmospheric CO2 are neither acceptable nor a hoax
No, Musk is not facing the SEC on charges of insider trading
No, GM's battery cost data does not prevent Tesla making a $35K Gen III
No, Tesla will not fail to make 25% gross margins
No, Tesla is not constrained to a market niche be that luxury or any other geodemographic
No, Tesla does not lack automotive experience considering it can hire the best in any field
No, Tesla is not limited to becoming the size of any other existing automotive point of reference
No, Tesla is not dependent upon subsidies, tax breaks and emissions credits (although it substantially broadens first-mover advantage to use and abuse these to the max until they are cancelled in the face of follow-on competition).
No, There is nothing to stop Tesla growing exponentially on internally generated revenues (that is what cash up front direct sales from a reservation list is all about).
No, There is nothing to stop Tesla selling and making 200,000 cars at huge profits in 2017 and 400~500,000 cars in 2018. More likely than not it will.
No, BMW i3 will not hinder Tesla one jot (nor will the i8), with a 7 year development cycle, until further notice BMW is out of the race to become a meaningful part of the future of automotive.
All of the above is true to the best of my knowledge and belief, and the reason I believe all that is because I made a disruptive business that works like this one and I recognize literally everything in and around it. Sadly I know something that Tesla does not know. I also know first hand how businesses like this can be destroyed. I will come to that later.
Despite general appearances I have not been an unhinged cheerleader, it is simply that there was an overwhelming majority of things to truthfully defend the business from compared to the precisely two things I have noticed that Tesla in my opinion could have done better.
The second (chronologically) one was the battery swap announcement - I wrote on Seeking Alpha prior to the 20th that it would indeed be battery swap that would be demonstrated, I also wrote that the stock would go up if it was presented with a business case, and I wrote that the stock would slide into the $90s as a buying opportunity and then recover if it was announced as a gimmick without a compelling business case. The latter occurred, the stock slid significantly into the $90s and rebounded 7+%. As it turned out the real rationale for demonstrating (not just announcing) battery swap was to qualify Tesla for an enhancement to the ZEV credit program. As it happens I believe that there is in fact a huge additional-revenue-stream business case for battery swap (a rental/vending machine for 85KWh and 160KWh 500 mile range batteries for example that serves also to enable the reintroduction of a low-cost 40KWh Model S with an ever-present upgrade path and massive road-trip optionality as part of the customer value proposition. I also suspect quite a few P85 owners would take the opportunity to upgrade to a 500 mile range P160 given the chance even if it did cost a fortune).
While my (chronologically) second highlighted concern is not really a criticism (because there is arguably a benefit in not confusing the market with the battery swap business case when that could be rolled out at any time in the future) my first concern: The announcement surrounding Tesla Finance was, and is both a concern and a criticism to this day. To a large extent that concern was brushed over and never fully resolved.
The true cost of ownership of a 60Kwh base Model S net of $7500 credit while that remains in force is $916 / mo. plus energy costs of $45.25/ mo. (using Tesla's 15,000 miles p/a, 20mpg @ $4.90 figures and net of $261 saved) plus insurance and road tax. That is $961.25 plus insurance and road tax.
It is not $579 / mo.
I have thought it through many times, and I have to say I cannot think of a more effective way of getting the fuel savings front and center of the customer's mind set. None the less, financially $579 / mo. still is not true. It is true to say that an equivalently priced and financed ICE vehicle (after EV tax credits) will cost $916 per month PLUS $306.25 / mo. (using Tesla's 15,000 miles /a, 20mpg @ $4.90 figures) coming to an even more expensive $1,222.25
In reality we are comparing
$916+ $45.25 = $961.25 (Tesla base 60 literally true cost of ownership with electricity priced at $11 cts per KWh)
with
$916+ $306.25 = $1222.25 for an equivalently priced ICE vehicle pulling 20mpg @ $4.90.
There is nothing at all that serves to reduce the true cost to a family budget further than these numbers when owning a Tesla Model S unless the cost of electricity is reduced from 11 cents / KWh.
While there is nothing wrong with paying $961.25 /mo to drive a fantastic car one really wants (instead of the straight choice of shelling out $71070K up front while waiting for a $7500 tax rebate), especially if one were previously budgeting for $1222.25 / mo. Nevertheless I cannot see any way at all of resolving these numbers to $579 as a true rather than a false impression of the cost of ownership, and yet this figure persists alongside the Order button on the website.
The reason I don't think this was solved by the second finance announcement is that all it did was to ameliorate the even more misleading figure of $500 without changing policy with respect to financial transparency and in fact did more to overpower the real issue (of transparency) with an upgrade of the residual guarantee from 43% to 50% for the base Model S 60. To this day I am in awe of the fact that Tesla got away with this distraction tactic without being hung in the court of public opinion, particularly for omitting to mention that the 50% did not apply to the balance of "upgrades", for example the balance of a Model S P85 or anything above the cost of the base Model S 60KWh. Additionally the fact that the whole Tesla Finance package only applies to a small number of US States somehow got lost in the fine print too.
I do believe the Tesla mission to electrify transport is valid and that it is fundamentally vital that it succeeds on a grand scale and I am entirely confident that it is on track to do that. I also believe that the opposition that Tesla faces to establish itself as a tranformative force in the auto industry is by contrast morally repugnant: Those who have failed to experience "issues" with auto dealership sharp practice I suspect are in the minority or simply were not aware of it. Watching the public being blatantly duped by big-money-backed disinformation campaigns and pseudo-official looking organizations claiming that Hydrogen and NG are clean energy sources aimed at tackling CO2 emissions induces a sense of injustice that I can barely describe (I think the latter should be hunted down and charged with defrauding both customers and shareholders alike and with respect to future generations: Conspiracy to commit genocide).
Tesla in my view is an important opposing force against some pretty horrible business practices, and as such would do well to contrast itself entirely from any possible hint of misconduct and also to guard especially against unresolved resentments. In that light I can see a red thread running through the business that appeared on the surface with respect to Tesla Finance and again in these discussions about Sig Angst. I think it should pay attention to tucking that thread back in.
The most extraordinary thing about Tesla is not the technology. There is nothing in the Model S that could not be created or even exceeded by any visionary leader who knew what he was aiming for and why and had the money to hire the engineering expertise to make it happen. I would be happy for the opportunity to prove it. No, the truly extraordinary thing (and the most disruptive thing) about Tesla is the business and its financing. Tesla represents one of the most risky gambles ever undertaken with other people's money (with their knowledge) to such a degree that it effectively breaks a number of the standing paradigms of capitalism. (It is far from surprising to me in any case that the shorts are repeatedly drawn in and routed by TSLA). If for example the first Roadsters, or the first Model S vehicles for that matter had not been delivered to pre-paid reservation holders and instead the company had gone bust (which without the reservation holder's money it may well have done), then the entire business model could be considered entirely indistinguishable from a confidence trick, literally. To this day, the business maintains a book of thousands of deposits for vehicles it cannot afford to build without customer pre-payment, certainly if the company had to build the cars and take cash on delivery or worse still, deliver to dealers on credit in the normal mode of an auto manufacturer, none of the forward looking metrics of the business would be valid.
But Tesla does get pre-payment, it does build and deliver the cars and the cars are superlative. In that process the customer willingness to trust the company with money, be it in the form of Sig deposits or payment on confirming the configuration prior to delivery for each and every production vehicle, this trust is absolutely beyond any and all doubt the single greatest asset of this business comparable only to Mr Musk's own history of willingness to risk his own money in a similar manner. Risking that trust with $500s and $579s, and failing to resolve "Sig Angst" resentment issues (or anything like it) is to my mind the single greatest real danger that Tesla faces. (The other one is opening up a side-door to cash-flow-negative sales in the form of an unlimited replenishment of sold-off loaners - they need to cap loaner sales to one or even three months of age at the earliest or risk breaking the spell that is the Tesla business model).
Without a doubt, Tesla is on track to a roaring financial success across the globle. In that process I would suggest that it is of paramount importance that the power of the emotion: "hold on a minute, you could not have done it without me" is not allowed to erupt into a brand-level issue. The emotional bank account with Sig customers and supporters must not be allowed to go into the red in inverse proportion to the financial account or there will be trouble. Trust me on this point.�
Aug 1, 2013
Arnold Panz That's an interesting analysis. The "good" news (from a Tesla investor point of view, or anyone who wants the company to survive and thrive) is that there are "only" 1200 Sig owners from North America, and a similar number in Europe and Asia, so the "Sig Angst" is limited to a relatively very small group of individuals.
That said, I always thought it was Tesla's biggest (and really, only obvious and ongoing) mistake to charge Sig owners extra for their cars that are reserved with a much larger deposit and are already fully loaded (i.e., Tesla makes whatever profit they make already from someone ordering a fully loaded car with almost every option). I never understood why Tesla took the risk of charging Sigs in the US extra, and see that they are apparently making the same mistake in Europe. The extra revenue simply isn't worth it, IMO, for the reason that Julian outlines. These are, presumably going to be your most loyal and vocal supporters in the region/market, so why do anything to disappoint or upset them? Simply charging Sig owners the same price for a comparably optioned car would eliminate much/most of the Sig Angst, and allow these people to be uninhibited in their devotion to Tesla.
After nine months, I couldn't be any happier with my car. As I figured, I've completely forgiven Tesla at this point because I love driving my car every day, service has been spectacular and I love everyone who works for the company. But I haven't forgotten my annoyance with Tesla during that whole time period before the car was delivered, and am still dumbfounded as to why a company that gets so much right can't seem to figure out how to truly delight Sig owners, which would seem like a relatively important thing (although, it would appear, not a bet-the-company type of issue, fortunately).�
Aug 1, 2013
Julian Cox The purpose of writing the above was a bit like the purpose of anticipating a stock movement, it is supposed to be non-obvious otherwise it has little value. I have to say that the technical and logistic issues surrounding getting the first Sigs out of the door in the USA should probably be understood by one and all to have been a higher priority to Musk and the team than customer comms, and a bit of a shambles just adds authenticity to the innovative start up feel.
Resentment issues are much more likely to surface much later, for example when the company is obviously very far from struggling and the CEO is zooming up the Forbes rich list, meanwhile the guys and gals that put up $40K at near total risk and waited forever with the heartfelt wish for the company to succeed got overlooked in the big picture. I came across a Roadster owner elsewhere venting dissent regarding Musk's TESLive comment that something cool but unspecified would be done for Roadster owners was a more of a case of promoting the stock than keeping faith, and I felt that coming across this thread was too much of a coincidence to ignore.
From my own experience this is an early warning that is best caught and dealt with while dealing with it remains a gift of appreciation. Competitor dissent is no problem, customer murmurings of a breach of faith or trust amongst the group invited to feel as "family" with the company is dangerous in brand like this. I would recommend to give them plenty of time to get well clear of start up mode but conversely to the company I would recommend placing an accelerated priority on addressing the sentiments expressed here, US Sig customers in particular. It could be as simple as an occasional Sig-customer-only email invite to store and gallery openings and other public events that Musk was attending for sun-visor signing - max 50 or 100 RSVPs per event via the web site, maybe something more material to look forward to when 1200 units of something would represent more of a rounding error than it would have done in Q1 or Q2. I would suspect that adding the extended service package as a compliment would be a good idea for newly introduced vehicles in any case.
I have objected in the past to the idea of placing a material incentive on customer referred sales because I like the purity of a pure referral (any MS owner can participate in the success of the company including referred sales via TSLA stock ownership). This Sig Angst issue is different, and something I think should be taken seriously.
In general terms, it is not financial or even competitive issues that could stunt Tesla's growth or actually harm Tesla at this stage or for the foreseeable future, the place to pay particular attention is in discharging obligations of gratitude to friendly parties that have invested emotion as much as money in the business on the way up. On the plus side, this is what helps set the tone for the brand, on the defensive side it is worth noting that Roman emperors were at far greater risk of being stabbed or poisoned by members of their own family than slain in battle, and so it goes with cause-driven brands also.�
Aug 1, 2013
brianman I'll take "Two Pages Ago for $100, Alex":
Signature Angst - Page 15�
Aug 2, 2013
dsm363 So that $5,000 is only on the Performace model.
So looking at the base 85kWh, the Sig has more extensive leather on the inside (all Sigs do). If that were an option, Tesla likely would have charged more than $1,500. They might have even charged more for the Sig red paint if that had made it avaliable. Assuming connectivity will be $25-30 a month the one free year is worth maybe $300. That brings the Sug premium down to $2,500 or so for early delivery which was worth it to some and not to others.
Can someone point to where Tesla said their would be a 'significant' gap in deliveries from the Signature models to production?�
Aug 2, 2013
brianman So you think they're going to back-charge early production Model S vehicles for the "accidental extra" connectivity they've gotten so far?
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If it wasn't (/isn't) supposed to be "significant" then they shouldn't have (be) listed (listing) it as the first and most prominent of the reasons to upgrade to Signature Model S (X).
"Here are three reasons why you should get our premium model: (1) INSIGNIFICANT REASON A, (b) reason b, and (c) reason c." It's a really poor sales pitch approach if they've done that, so their marketing is then "horrible" instead of "misleading". You'd prefer that Tesla has horrible marketing rather than misleading marketing? Hm.�
Aug 2, 2013
mknox Shush... I'm at 5 months and counting :tongue:�
Aug 2, 2013
dsm363 Where did I say that? I can't see that they will back charge anyone. Assuming the people that are getting connectivity keep it that is a slight savings. Either way the premium is what it is. It was and still is a voluntary contract and something anyone could have backed out of prior to finalizing.�
Aug 2, 2013
dsm363 Again. Where did I say Tesla should have horrible or misleading marketing? Really.�
Aug 2, 2013
brianman You were making the argument that the included connectivity should be considered as part of the Sig premium. For that to be the case it has to be, actually, you know... a benefit of the Sig offering vs. general production. So if general production cars get it as well, it's not a Sig benefit.
It's somewhat like saying "metal pedals are a Sig benefit". Well, they are for "Sig 85 vs. 85" but they aren't for "Sig Perf vs. Perf" since all flavors of Perf have the metal pedals.�
Aug 2, 2013
dsm363 Besides the people who got crossed over on their delivery with production models (who I can understand maybe why thy are upset) nowhere have I seen it written that Tesla said they would take a time out after Signature production to let us enjoy our car before anyone else could. Is that what you are asking for? I really don't see your issue with the lack of a gap in delivery.�
Aug 2, 2013
gregincal I agree with a lot of complaints, but this one I definitely don't. They said the sigs would be first, but I can't imagine any scenario where the first production wouldn't immediately follow the last sig. Didn't people really think they were going to shut down the factory and go on vacation for a couple months while the sig owners enjoyed their cars?
(edit: what DSM said.)�
Aug 2, 2013
dsm363 They will start charging for connectivity at some point.�
Aug 2, 2013
dsm363 That appears to be what some people expected. I love my Sig car but would never ask Tesla to keep others from driving a production car for even a week just to make me feel better about my Sig premium. I knew I was paying more so it wasn't a surprise.�
Aug 2, 2013
gregincal Sure, but assuming sig owners would have otherwise been early production owners, the early productions have already gotten over 7 months free connectivity. We won't know what the sig connectivity was worth until all is said and done.�
Aug 2, 2013
brianman Agreed.
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I'll assume you're asking me since you quoted me. And I'll also assume you mean "DID".
For the U.S., I didn't think they'd hold it up but for Europe they probably should have. They have plenty of production to fulfill in the U.S. to allow for Europe Sigs to deliver before Europe GP.
I'm not clear why/where people get "shut down the factory" as the only option for sequencing deliveries properly.
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I don't think I've heard anyone asking for this, except maybe for Sig Red vs. 2103 Red -- which is kind of exactly what they did. In fact, IIRC George mentioned this as a reason when he was interviewed about it.�
Aug 2, 2013
dsm363 That makes sense. Of course if some one getting it for free cancels it when they start charging then the savings is gone. The point was it is one possible benefit, not that it would make the Sog premium disappear.
Did Tesla over promise on early delivery for some people? Maybe,
It all depends on when they ordered really. Some people jumped about 7,000+ people while others like myself who were around P300 before upgrading it made maybe 2 months difference. They never said they would hold production so that the Sig owners could savor their exclusive purchase while others waited for their car. They always said they would continue with production.�
Aug 2, 2013
brianman You appear to be arguing against something nobody has asserted.�
Aug 2, 2013
dsm363 Ok. I thought some people had argued in the past there should have been a delay but maybe I am remembering that incorrectly.
What is the angst about then? That a few production cars got delivered a week or two before some Sig customers (outside the 5 cars that had significant problems)? I think the same things are getting talked about again and again here. You seem to have been affected by this issue more than I was so I can only speak from my experience.�
Aug 2, 2013
brianman Additional premium for questionable benefit (as if the early deposit meant nothing). Promises of "exclusive features" (exterior and interior coloring are not the "features" that some of us had in mind). "Early delivery that wasn't" (for some) etc. And so forth. But yes, once again going in circles.�
Aug 2, 2013
brianman Some loose thoughts, stream of consciousness...
White interior - I didn't opt for it because of discoloration concerns. Personal choice, not a Tesla problem. But it means that "feature" has no value for me.
Sig Red exterior - One of the reasons I got the Sig. Definitely not worth $5k to me though.
Early delivery - Meaning, earlier than if I got a GP vehicle. For me this was definitely true, but I figured my larger reservation deposit covered this.
Limited number - Eroded somewhat by the bait-and-switch on the "1,000 in U.S. market" to "1,200 in continent market". It put me in a position of having to consider "if they give me a VIN > 1,000 will I go to the lawyers to get my $10k finalization money back". Putting customers in that position is horrible.
Sig badging - Barely noticeable. An exclusive spoiler style or wheels would be worthy of calling this out as a noteworthy benefit. The current etching is nice but contributes little to justifying the premium $ for Sig.
Negatives with the "all" package - I wouldn't have paid for a parcel shelf on a GP vehicle.
When describing the vehicle, often I wouldn't even bring up Sig because I can't/couldn't justify the premium. I couldn't recommend the Sig because of the erosion and the unjustifiable premium. I can't recommend the Sig for the X because I frankly don't trust (yet?) that they will have learned and will make it good for X. We have evidence from the EU thread that they haven't adjusted the offering for EU -- though to be fair it's a "launched product" whereas for X they still have some time before options and pricing are out.
Would I do it again? Probably yes. Why? I dunno. I would do Perf again. I can't justify that either. I'm often left with the feeling that Tesla knew they had us where they wanted us and milked us for the extra $3-5k because, simply, they could -- the market would bear it. The primary cause of Angst for me is that I don't like feeling this way about this company.
Ford? Chevy? I wouldn't care. Tesla: I do care. Maybe it's a cult thing.
Hopefully that clarifies.�
Aug 2, 2013
dsm363 That makes sense. In the end though Tesla sold out their NA Sig list so enough people saw value in the minimal package it provided to sign the finalization documents.
Hopefully they add more value to the Model X Sig list but not enough that it creates an entire new angst thread when people start comparing benefits of the X Sig over S Sig.�
Aug 2, 2013
bonnie I'm okay with Sig X providing more value than Sig S did.
�
Aug 2, 2013
brianman You better be giving rides at Teslive 2015.�
Aug 2, 2013
dsm363 Me too! I want them to make the package more worthwhile.�
Aug 2, 2013
gregincal I think the point we're making is that early delivery in no way implies a gap, and pointing out the illogic of ever assuming it would. You seemed to be arguing otherwise in the text I quoted (that somehow they shouldn't have advertised early delivery as a sig feature), but if not I apologize. In general I agree with your general assessments of the positives. I do notice sig red cars when I see them and in my mind there is a premium there (they will only get more exclusive the more production cars are on the road), but other than that and whatever the somewhat early delivery was worth there isn't much. Definitely not worth the premium, especially if you didn't want the sig red. I'm surprised more people didn't downgrade when the pricing was announced, but I guess that after having your deposit in that long it's hard to give up the dream.�
Aug 2, 2013
brianman I think I've made it pretty clear that I was asserting that nobody has made this argument in the affirmative to my recollection (including me). The only ones that have raised it are those saying "I don't understand why people are expecting...".�
Aug 2, 2013
bonnie It will be the TESLIVE 2015 clown car.�
Aug 2, 2013
gregincal
Just to be clear, this is the exact statement of yours that I originally disagreed with:
I believe that part of the sig marketing is both accurate and appropriate, and any disappointment by people in relation to that part of the sig marketing is not Tesla's fault, because how the deliveries happened in the US was pretty much how one might expect them to have happened (they burned through the production backlog faster than expected, but that has nothing to do with when early productions were delivered). Whether it is worth the premium or not is up to people to decide for themselves. Now in Europe if it ends up that a significant percentage of european production cars are delivered before signature cars, then I believe they have reason to complain.
Let's meet back in another year and discuss this all again! I keep promising myself not to click on this thread, but can't help it.�
Aug 2, 2013
mknox I think you make some good points, but I never understood this one. There were always going to be 1,200 Signature cars, and the Canada / US market has always been pretty close to interchangeable anyway. I'm pretty sure at least one US Sig ended up registered in Canada. Are you saying that just the Canadians should have received cars with > 1,000 VINs?
FWIW, I backed away from the Sig series when the (what was it, 6.1%) import duty was announced. The first Canadian Sigs were delivered at the end of December, and I got my Production at the beginning of March (and I wasn't the first). So for the sake of a bit over two months and the Sig Red color which I really like, I got everything I wanted for thousands less.�
Aug 2, 2013
brianman 1. It's not 1,200 Signature cars. It's something like 2,500 worldwide, IIRC. So "always" doesn't apply since it's incorrect.
2. They advertised "first 1,000" on all of the U.S. facing web pages. There was no mention of North America or Canada. I had little-to-no awareness of the "Canadian 200" until relatively late (after my finalization IIRC).
3. The markets are not interchangeable. There are different vehicle regulations. There are different taxation implications. There's the NAFTA stuff, etc.
4. I wasn't saying anything about Canadian VINs (or Europe VINs). What I was saying is that Tesla presented "first 1,000 VINs will be U.S. market signature vehicles; no more, no less".
The "1,200 North America" thing only surfaced later after some quiet conversations were had between customers and Tesla representatives. It wasn't until I finally heard from, IIRC, George that we got an official comment on it. It fits the troubling pattern of "officially say one thing and tout it in your marketing, and then do something subtlely different behind the scenes". I still have "trust wounds" with Tesla from this debacle, as you can plainly see. I don't like feeling "played" or "used", and the whole Signature experience had multiple instances that resulted in that feeling. Some people feel similarly about the pano shade, the center console, the netting in the frunk, etc. I don't like it. It reflects poorly on Tesla, and didn't need to happen. Yet this kind of stuff keeps happening. And it's rarely if ever discussed on the blog -- which would be the perfect avenue for airing these issues and being open with customers.
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Regarding numbers...
Suppose you were interested in the final 5 (or whatever it was) Roadsters. You made a deposit. You finalized your config. You were lining up your financing. And then you hear on TMC -- not from Tesla, but TMC -- that now there is an "Extra Final 3 Roadsters". Would you not be upset? What if it was "Extra Final 300 Roadsters"? What about "Extra Final 1"? For me it's not about the number. It's about "there will be a limited number of X" and then behind the scenes they quietly make it "X+n" with no official announcement. Would it not come across to you as shady and erode your trust?
To my knowledge, we still don't know how many U.S. Market Signature Model S vehicles were made. We have anecdotal evidence (Teslive) that the VINs go up to something like 1094. Who knows how many holes there are, so it's probably less than 1094 actual vehicles. But it's in this state of "limited edition run of 1,000 vehicles" of which there are somewhere in the range of [1001,1094] actual vehicles. Is Tesla really this bad at math, or do they just not care?�
Aug 2, 2013
Discoducky Hopefully mine will be there as well! P#1618!�
Aug 2, 2013
Doug_G Oddly enough, you pretty much perfectly encapsulated my thoughts on the topic. OMG.
Yes, there's a fellow by the name of Harry who lives in Eastern Canada and has an American Sig. He has dual citizenship and both a Canadian and US address. He picked up his car in the US in the fall, and immediately drove it to Canada. He really was, to my knowledge, the first Canadian owner. (I still claim bragging rights for the first delivery in Canada, though!)�
Aug 2, 2013
brianman Uh, oh. What am I thinking about now, Doug?�
Aug 2, 2013
Discoducky Range charge!�
Aug 2, 2013
brianman Swing and a miss. You're no Doug!�
Aug 2, 2013
mknox Yes, I suppose that's true. I was thinking of the initial markets for the car.
The Canadian facing page said the same thing about the first 200 Canadian deliveries, also with no reference to other markets. If the Sigs had been delivered simultaneously, which is what I was led to believe would happen early on, it is possible that the first 1,200 VINs could have been interspersed between the two markets and some of the US Sig buyers could have ended up with a >1,000 VIN while Canadian buyers could have gotten a <1,000 VIN.
I think what happened is that they didn't get 200 takers in Canada. They didn't get me because of the extra costs associated with the stupid import duty.
Look, I get that what transpired was not to your liking, and that's cool. I suppose I was just going on a different set of expectations when it came to the Sig program.�
Aug 3, 2013
dsm363 The included options now seem a little nicer with the recent price increases. Now we can create a different angst thread for that.�
Aug 3, 2013
bhuwan Hahaha!0�
Aug 3, 2013
digitaltim Exact thought I had...Sig premium is looking like a deal...�
Aug 3, 2013
brianman Not compared to low VIN GP...
Apples and oranges.�
Aug 3, 2013
AnOutsider How so? Compare it to a similarly equipped car THEN, not what it would cost a year later.�
Aug 4, 2013
digitaltim Agreed...I keep trying to rationalize it for myself...�
Aug 4, 2013
dsm363 How many people got their Signature after production cars in their state? They obviously had shipping issues to places like Hawaii and early production customers in California were allowed to pick up their car while other Sigs were in transit.
If you had a low production number and signed up for the Signature then you had to know the bump in the line wasn't going to be significant (meaning more than a few months).�
Aug 4, 2013
jerry33 With the new pricing there shouldn't be any angst. Even Signature pricing looks like a real bargain.�
Aug 4, 2013
pilotSteve Just priced a comparable non-perf Red to my Signature; price delta for my Signature is now $1000, and that got me the Sig Red and White interior (which I Love!) and delivery in December 2012, with a VIN under 1000. I'm pretty darn happy now, and I was one of the original "sig angst" posters.�
Aug 4, 2013
brianman -2 for skimming the forum too lightly
And yes, I grow weary of people making a non-new assertion that has already been discussed in some depth. But so be it.
Also, regarding AnOutsider's post his "year" is generous. It's around 14 months for those (like me) that finalized in June of 2012. There were many Sigs finalizing before me as well.�
Aug 4, 2013
AlMc Wow....That was a long read to catch up on this issue...22 pages....I want to thank all the sig owners (I am being earnest..no joke) for putting down the 40K on a company that could have gone belly up. I admit, I would not have done it.
Before reading this thread I was reading one about the anger the P18,000+ people were experiencing because the cost of their options were going up.
While I know your angst is not completely gone, I hope that things look a little better today than in April 2013 when this thread was started.
I debated long and hard about a SigX. There may be some value in it, like the SigS (exclusive color for exterior/interior...private invite to Gen III ramp up/launch). However, thanks to you all and TSLA I think it wiser for us all to put that 35K in the stock.
Anyone know how many SigX reservations there are?�
Aug 4, 2013
AnOutsider How so? Getting a low sig should have meant months before a low P, no? And yes, I was one of the sigs to get theirs after Ps�
Aug 4, 2013
AnOutsider I'm mobile at the moment, but there's a model x reservation tally thread n this same sub forum�
Aug 4, 2013
brianman Model X Tally
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This isn't the first Sig thread. Just the one with the catchy title.�
Aug 5, 2013
dsm363 I know you are a few others had significant delivery delays but I don't think it was on the order or dozens or hundreds of people.
That's what I was trying to say, I have a very low Sig and got mine at the very end of September so no more than 2 months before some production cars. I wasn't expecting anything more. If you had a late Sig then you really shouldn't have expected any significant delay before production cars started being delivered.
This is already a long thread but again, this was a voluntary program. Tesla could have been more clear on the benefits but they did deliver the Signature ordered even if the gap in delivery wasn't to everyone's liking. I would expect the same for the Model X so if getting an exclusive car and being the only one to have it for a very long period of time before any production cars get delivered is what you want then signing up for the Sig might not be the way to go. Getting a Signature is not worth it for everyone and each person needs to make their own decision to avoid the angst some people still feel to this day about voluntarily paying more for a car for some small benefits and differences.
I knew I was getting the Sig red paint (I did), more leather on the inside (I did) and my car early in the production run (I did) with minimal badging. I also knew I was paying more for this car than a production car before I finalized so no surprises there. Maybe it wasn't worth it but I wasn't forced to get a Signature model and don't think anyone else was. I wanted a early car and I got it. I could easily have kept my low production slot but decided to get a Signature.�
Aug 5, 2013
robballan Ouch. I deserved it, tho.�
Aug 5, 2013
digitaltim My sentiments almost exactly...
I took delivery of my Sig (VIN628) in November. While I believe Tesla could have provided a few more perks, I really did not expect more than early delivery (minimal), exterior red & white leather (which I love), the ability to advocate for the electrification of transportation and bragging rights (undeserved rock star status as my kids say).
I have had three significant/nuisance repair issues - expected as an early adopter and handled superbly by Tesla (though one to go).
I love the car...�
Apr 9, 2014
tezco My reservation # was in the early 500's but my VIN ended up in the 800's, and delivery finally occured after general production deliveries had already started, so I was a little disappointed. Sig sounded good at reservation time, particularly since it initially appeared that production would take a long time to ramp up. Although that advantage disappeared, so did the possibility that we would be orphans if Tesla folded. I think that Service still treats the Sig owners with a premium level of support and respect.�
Apr 12, 2014
pilotSteve
+1 tezco. My experience has been superb with service. I know that my service advisor comments on how unusual the Sig Red + perforated white leather is compared the production cars. I know (almost)everybody has had excellent service experiences; mine have ALL been beyond my expectation.�
Apr 14, 2014
AnOutsider I've had very good service experiences as well (above and beyond IMO). I just thought that was par for the course with Tesla though, and nothing about the signature car.�
Apr 14, 2014
Shumdit
I just have a plebeian P85+ and service seems to be great to me.�
Apr 14, 2014
apacheguy From a reliability standpoint, service has been good. However, I'm not sure where people are getting the idea that Sigs get preferential treatment. My own experience does not support this view. I get the same upgrades and service as the next guy in line. Sig or not, serivce plan or not, it's all the same IMHO.�
Apr 15, 2014
brianman I have mixed feelings on this one.
On the one hand, I feel like they roll out the red carpet (tone and behavior) to me as a Signature customer.
On the other hand, I don't see (or expect) that they will treat non-Signature customers in some way that is "lesser".
I guess what I'm saying is that maybe there are just some subtle things that they do (like preference in reserving loaner spots or somesuch) that don't really impact the vehicle service itself but maybe brighten the ownership experience just slightly.�
Apr 15, 2014
apacheguy FWIW, I have never received a Model S loaner. I have requested it on a couple occasions and been turned down. Heck, the last time I had a hard enough time arranging valet service. No, the red carpet has not been rolled out for me.�
Apr 15, 2014
brianman That was but one possible example. If your service center simply has no loaner cars then such preferential treatment wouldn't even be possible.�
Apr 16, 2014
tezco I agree with Brian--I think that my service guys realize that the Roadster and Signature owners help the company survive some rough patches. They are always impressed when the see that Sig badge and always mention it when picking up the car, in a manner that makes me believe that they think I'm a very special owner.�
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